Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dark Wizard 06-11-07, 09:15 PM	I'm wondering what is the real (official or semi-official) correlation between years in the Realms and Earth? I know that the official WotC ratio is 2:5 Realms to Earth years. However, I know this was not the case in earlier publication schedules. I know Ed gets all his info from El, but for a virtually immortal, planewalking wizard with potential temporal magics via exotic portals time doesn't mean all that much. What about a thousand years ago, did Earth time and Realms time sync up at the same ratio it does now? Or does this sort of thing fluctuate?
Gray Richardson 06-11-07, 09:38 PM	This may be an unsatisfying answer for you. But just as there is no one-to-one correspondence between geographic coordinates of Toril and Earth, I don't think there is any true correspondence along the time dimension either. Sure people might like to think that you can map Toril years to Earth years and proclaim with confidence that June 11th, 2007 is equivalent to Kythorn 18th, 1378 DR, however I think such a mapping is just an illusion or a convention. Faerun and Earth lie in different universes with different time dimensions. In fact, Elminster is said to have 2 portals in his hideaway that connect to Earth. One to Ed Greenwood's study, the other to Yellowstone National Park circa the 1890's I believe. Additionally, when the Imaskari stole human slaves from earth, they opened portals to two different geographic areas (Egypt and Mesopotamia) separated by a vast distance in time as well as space, as the slaves were from different eras of Earth history. I think one might conclude from this that time does not match up one-for-one between the universes. Even the novels published in any given month can take place in different years on Toril, so that it becomes problematic to say at any given point "this is what year it is in Toril at this particular moment". Fans on the boards often argue about "what year it is", but depending on what assumptions you make, you could come up with any of several different answers.
Old Sage 06-11-07, 10:36 PM	Faerun and Earth lie in different universes with different time dimensions. In fact, Elminster is said to have 2 portals in his hideaway that connect to Earth. One to Ed Greenwood's study, the other to Yellowstone National Park circa the 1890's I believe.Elminster's Holdout in Realmspace has a portal to Ed's study and library at his home and to Yellowstone in 1894. Additionally, both Ed and THO in their replies over at Candlekeep, have told us that there are Realms portals to Earth, but that it is the D&D interpretation of our world. Additionally, when the Imaskari stole human slaves from earth, they opened portals to two different geographic areas (Egypt and Mesopotamia) separated by a vast distance in time as well as space, as the slaves were from different eras of Earth history.Eric Boyd gave the strong impression the Mulan were kidnapped from ancient Egypt on Earth, in Powers & Pantheons, but did not state so explicitly. Eric also hinted about this in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical in the write up of the artifact relating to Ptah.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 10:52 PM	However, it is entirely possible that BOTH the Mulan AND the ancient Egyptians had a common cultural ancestor, which originated on yet a third unamed world (a'la Stargate). I sometimes like to toy with the idea that the Imaskari were Atlanteans that had fled their own demise on our Earth; but that, of course, is pure conjecture. As far as the time thing goes, even old RW Folklore hints at the fact that time flow completely differently on other worlds, and you could theoretically run into someone you previously met... BEFORE THEY met YOU. :eek:
GothicDan 06-11-07, 10:59 PM	I was thinking recently about doing a sort of weird Pseudo-Earth fantasy world made up of the archetypal 'lost' magical kingdoms: Atlantis, Thule, Hyperborea, Lemuria... This was after having written 15 or so pages of history for a weird setting containing aspects of Planescape, Magic: the Ascension, and Spelljammer. And about 13 pages of Aryvandaari history... And having taken notes on half of my E&M fields book...
Dark Wizard 06-11-07, 11:25 PM	This may be an unsatisfying answer for you. But just as there is no one-to-one correspondence between geographic coordinates of Toril and Earth, I don't think there is any true correspondence along the time dimension either. Sure people might like to think that you can map Toril years to Earth years and proclaim with confidence that June 11th, 2007 is equivalent to Kythorn 18th, 1378 DR, however I think such a mapping is just an illusion or a convention. Thanks, Gray. I hoped one of our resident planar scholars would drop in to share a few thoughts. This is actually a very satisfactory answer. Having read about the portals Elminster has access to leading to different time periods on Earth and also the Imaskari abduction of the Mulan (the times didn't seem to work all that well) it seemed the non-linear thing was the right answer. It is similar to answers from Eric Boyd on the Dawn Cataclysm. In the long run it's probably the best answer because it leaves the most possibilities open. Now that I have a lot more free reign, I can proceed with what I had considered. Thanks everyone. a'la Stargate As long as there are no Wraith or Goa'uld for that matter. The Ori are okay, I mean who doesn't like sham divinities with near omnipotent power as a main villain. It worked for Q. I was thinking recently about doing a sort of weird Pseudo-Earth fantasy world made up of the archetypal 'lost' magical kingdoms: Atlantis, Thule, Hyperborea, Lemuria... Now that's just eerie.
GothicDan 06-11-07, 11:43 PM	Eerie? Or.. Awesome? No.. Can't. Already working on two worlds and Aryvandaar.. Must finish SOMETHING.
Dark Wizard 06-11-07, 11:56 PM	Awesome, definitely. Eerie in that I have the same idea filed away to be pondered upon at some time in the future, though it has blended heavily with ideas for another setting I'm slowly piecing together on and off. I'm not sure how pure the lost kingdom concepts will remain in the face of that other setting. It has pieces with a lot of traction for me so that those aspects mercilessly consume raw ideas to conform them to the whole. It's sort of like my fantasy fiction compost bin. If I have an idea that doesn't fit with anything else I'm working on, I toss it in there, let it sit and eventually it works itself in. If I wait even longer it doesn't even smell like old, exotic cheese.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 12:00 AM	Ha. That's what I'm trying to avoid doing, myself. Which is why I keep spending a ridiculous amount of time, in one burst, detailing settings, then getting an idea or notion, saving the file, and moving on to do it again. And either losing or never looking at the older files again. It also happens a lot that, any time I hit a certain point in world design, and I start seeing too many things in it that make it seem derivative or simply too generic, I get frustrated and give up on it. I'm still proud of my Solar Theocracy, my hyper-scientific Magocrcay, and my Etruscan-Norse regions, though, so when making notes for any setting, I always find myself wanting desperately to shove them in. I think I might just try to write a novel about pre-Crown War Aryvandaar, and focus on world design on the side, since writing is my final goal, not necessarily gaming. PS: Also rather getting attached to a newer idea of mine. A sylvan forest realm that's similar in some ways to your typical Western European fantasy setting, knights, a king, etc. But it's incredibly isolated and cold to outsiders, and its religious and magical schema is a combination of the works of Solomon, John Dee, Qabbalah, and Yazdanism. Angelic/demonic beings would be actively worshipped there and preferred over mysterious and aloof 'deities,' with a tight, shared history between them.
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 12:38 AM	PS: Also rather getting attached to a newer idea of mine. A sylvan forest realm that's similar in some ways to your typical Western European fantasy setting, knights, a king, etc. But it's incredibly isolated and cold to outsiders, and its religious and magical schema is a combination of the works of Solomon, John Dee, Qabbalah, and Yazdanism. Angelic/demonic beings would be actively worshipped there and preferred over mysterious and aloof 'deities,' with a tight, shared history between them. That does twist up the old conventions a bit, but keeps enough 'normalcy' for someone to get into.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 12:41 AM	That's primarily what I actually want to achieve if I ever want to publish a first novel in a completely unique world. I don't want it to be so weird/abnormal that editors will just scoff, nor so plain that they'll ignore it. Also, sorry for sort of hiijacking this thread. I've been doing it all day. My brain's still sputtering through the remnants of my artistic/productive storm from the weekend.
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 12:47 AM	Also, sorry for sort of hiijacking this thread. I've been doing it all day. My brain's still sputtering through the remnants of my artistic/productive storm from the weekend. No worries. The thread has answered my question, it's ready to depart from it's original purpose.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 01:37 AM	Hmmm... I seem to have lost my post that came after Dan's 'novel' idea. I gave the outline of a novel idea I've been kicking around for some 15 years myself. I suppose I hit 'preview' instead of 'submit' - I've done it before. Maybe it was meant to be, since my concept really should be kept under raps. ;) It does have to do with an 'alternate earth' though, or rather, our Earth after something screwed-up the timeline. Although it starts in the near future, the rest takes place in the Dark Ages as the hero seeks to 'correct' time. Lots of lost Empires that never fell... that sort of thing. I actually have an entire trilogy planned, with end-of-novel cliff-hangers and everything. If only my damned ADHD didn't keep me from finishing anything.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 01:58 AM	I know your pain so well, Markus. My medicine is what made me so productive this weekend. ;) For some reason, I have a vehement, irrational desire to not write a novel related to Earth in any significant way. It may be an unconscious reaction because of so many damn poor fantasy adaptions and novels have done it. The best example of something like this being done is Jacqueline Care's Kushiel novels. She is definitely one of my top 3 favorite authors.
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 02:18 AM	I should check if I have some form of attention disorder. I can't focus on any one thing for too long. Last week, I had a major breakthrough for the setting I'm working on the most. This setting's iconic city (it's Waterdeep, Sigil, Sharn, Lankhmar, Greyhawk) finally and miraculously slipped into place. I stayed up until 5 am (must have started around 1 or so) putting the details together. I remembered the sun came up and I thought, hmm I should sleep. Much too much suddenly clicked into place to let go of that moment. However, after that night, I started working on some classes and PrCs, stopped working on half of them, started notes for a few more ideas. Right now I'm musing over the possibilities that the answer to this original thread topic opened up for my take on Kara-Tur. With time now fluid, I can go as far back or forward as I want across the worlds. Mmm ... semi-omnipotence.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 02:21 AM	My ADHD is super bad. As in, I can get super excited about an idea, but by the time it takes me to actually open Word and put my fingers on the keyboard, I've lost all interest in it. This happens usually several times a day.
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 02:36 AM	That's very unfortunate. I get like that sometimes. A lot of my notes are actually kept in memory. Inevitably, a good idea occasionally gets lost to the ether and then I kick myself for forgetting.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 02:48 AM	I try to go with the memory thing. For some reason, the longer I keep things bottled up, the longer I stay interested in them. It's as soon as I have to start paying greater attention to them alone (writing) that my brain literally feels like it lurches away from the topic in terror. But, as you said, things are forgotten. (This will come back to what you said, I swear.) As another side effect of ADHD, I have always had severe sleep issues even as a baby. I can't fall asleep unless it's perfectly dark, a certain temperature (cold), and only in 2 possible positions. My mind literally never shuts down (probably resulting in my frantic nightmares all the time); it always is trying to pay attention to everything that's going on around me. If music is playing when I'm falling asleep, my brain struggles either too hard to hear what's being sung (if it's too quiet), or too hard to ignore what's being sung (if it's too loud). If I'm not in one of the two above-mentioned positions, right as I'm getting close to falling asleep (after usually at least an hour of laying there, sometimes as many as three hours), a lot of times I'd get hyper aware of the fact that X part of my body was receiving more pressure on it than Y part. And then my brain focuses insanely on that, until I have to jerk up, reposition myself, and start all over again. That's actually gotten better than it used to be. When I was younger, I would have dreams in which (I think) my brain was still aware of my body not being properly even from a tactile distribution sense. I'd have nightmares about being conscious in the dream of parts of my body feeling 'wrong,' and I'd keep try to move them in the dream, or rub them, or scratch at them, and they'd never feel 'right.' And I'd finally awake in the middle of the night. Terribly frustrating, and at times I thought I was close to losing my sanity... One of the few things that I can think about while waiting to fall asleep is RPGs and fantasy worlds and the like. It's one of those things that I can sort of absently ponder without my brain getting totally involved in it. But then, I fall asleep... And the next day, I only remember parts of the cool things I thought of the night before. And people wonder why I like Adderall so much and not sleeping, being able to work constantly and create things and get all of the stupid interests and thoughts that stay bottled up in my brain behind a wall of ADHD static. If only it didn't have all of those pesky side effects, including sudden death.
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 11:29 PM	I would have dreams in which (I think) my brain was still aware of my body not being properly even from a tactile distribution sense. I'd have nightmares about being conscious in the dream of parts of my body feeling 'wrong,' I believe there is an medical term and diagnosis for this. It's been a few years since I've studied biopsychology topics. I too find keeping things in memory helps me think about them, I forget about things even faster if I write them down. I get used to referring to my notes, but I'm not much good at recalling things off the top of my head because of them. And thank the saving grace of fiction. I would be bored out of my skull without it. It's one of the few things I can think about at work, other than the monotony of actually doing work.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 11:54 PM	I too have sleep problems, and have episodes of 'lucid dreaming' that I find disturbing (especially when they turn out to be REAL memories... belonging to SOMEONE ELSE!). I think severe ADHD is some form of short-circuit in the brain which has both beneficial and harmful side effects. As in Dan's case, my brain has trouble shutting down, even when I want it to. The bright side is that I can multitask better then anyone I know. In fact, thats the problem, I CAN'T work on just one thing, it makes me nuts. They keep coming out with meds (I don't take any) that 'dampen' the effects, but that doesn't sound very healthy. If my nuerons are firing a dozen times more then the average persons, I want to know why, not shut it down. It also helps to synthesize information, so it is a huge benefit to doing research, especially the type we do here. The first time I ever saw Robin Williams in concert (the 70's) my jaw dropped. His entire act was the non-stop ramblings of a madman with an over-active imagination... I knew I was not alone for the first time. Remember the famous quote that "even Einstein failed math"? You know why? Because he learned everything he needed to know on the first day and grew bored, and spent the entire year staring out a window. While his teachers thought he was daydreaming, he was working out lift-ratio to wingspan applied to air density... while watching birds. Someone who doesn't have ADD will never understand how they are stuck in the here and now, while those of us with the blessing/curse are already thinking two centuries ahead. Problem is, we need to make money in the here and now, and thinking 'big thoughts' doesn't buy us lunch. Holding down a normal job with severe ADD is nearly impossible without medication, because we can't take being in the same exact place every day. Its frustrating, but it's me, so I live with it. What was this thread about again? :thinks:
Dark Wizard 06-13-07, 01:04 AM	On my offbeat take on Kara-Tur as mentioned on the other thread. I felt the one event major enough to suddenly make Kara-Tur a big player in the scheme of things and account for any potential changes to the setting itself was the inexplicable 3e cosmology change. I know the designers said the retcon should best be left as an actual retcon, having no explanation, just how things always were. I'm mostly indifferent, but I developed this idea on one of the days I felt like disagreeing with that stance. Basically I start off with the idea that many otherworldly somethings have compromised Kara-Tur. The continent has become a spiritual beachhead for a massive incursion. I'm leaning towards heavy diabolic involvement given the lawful bend of many Kara-Tur regions (something drastic enough to drag a prime world closer to the pits); with major areas destabilized, demons and even nastier entities threaten to overwhelm the rest. Kara-Tur as she stands currently, in my view is basically stuck in a magical and spiritual dark age - partly bought on by complacency, has no hope of withstanding or even understanding the supernatural implications of its situation (not that they understand the material threat either). This was the plan of some cosmic beings all along, to gradually dull the mystical perception of a significant population in order to make their move or to maintain control. I'm mixing a bunch of elements a bit, eastern, western, D&D. Fortunately one of the native entities had a pseudo-awakening while meditating during the Time of Troubles (the gods of Kara-Tur supposedly took a meditative retreat during the ToT). In typical fashion, he sets off save the world, gathering artifacts and magics forgotten by the general populace (something like the remnants of ancient Leshay reality altering magic coupled with a naturally occurring nexus of power and something like a perfect wish). Long story short, he comes against different factions and eventually almost succeeds in recreating the world in his image. In the end it's a native Kara-Turan mortal, with experiences widen after seeing the great range of possibilities in the world and the planes beyond, who steps into the vital moment and puts in one simple final factor into the massive magics being worked around him: "Let be what may be." The course is set, the artifacts are consumed, and the world changes according to that wish. The cosmology rearranges itself into the Great Tree with the some form of world axis running through the middle of it. Toril is further separated from the threat of being swallowed by planes. With the axis mundi (or should that be axis cosmos) running through the tree it reinforces the fabric of the Realm's now individualized reality, creating a sort of cosmological fortress. This naturally spices up the Kara-Turan pantheons a bit. The mortals of Kara-Tur emerge as true counterparts to their Faerunian cousins because in this reality they were never stifled by a dark age. Since Faerun has allowed itself to develop as naturally as it could, it sees little effect. However, Kara-Tur undergo changes, none of which are noticeable to anyone not directly involved in the incident, with the exception of some very perceptively powerful individuals. Some pieces of Kara-Tur are the same (such as Shou Lung more or less), but throughout the continents, bits are different here and there, focusing on different themes, importance given to different aspects. This gives me the wiggle room I felt I needed to reinterpret, elaborate, and of course revise (perhaps in drastic ways, I can't tell yet) the setting that I feel never got a chance to grow naturally. In addition, letting be what may be opens whole truck loads of worms. These are all pieces of a story I hope to write to give this retcon induced take of Kara-Tur some flavor. A lot of themes are a blatant cry to let Kara-Tur develop as a fantasy world should, to fight ignorance, keep an open mind, all that good stuff. Some of this is influenced by a general comic book style cosmic occurrence, because I'm a fan of some of those. Through the story I wanted to focus on the regular "adventurers" as protagonists, the figure who initiates the world changing magic is actually an antagonist. I know this probably doesn't sit well with some, those that care enough anyway, but this is how I see things. Some pieces fell into place after talking about this, so I'm off to do more outlining.
Sullivan 06-13-07, 12:07 PM	I think when 3rd Edition, or maybe 3.5, came out WotC said something about advancing the time-line of the Realms at a certain rate. I don’t remember what that rate was, however.
captaincarot 06-13-07, 12:14 PM	there is a comment to that effect some where, i have a vague recollection of seeing it, possibly it could be a footnote to the time line in the FRCS, but don't quote me on that.
Faraer 06-13-07, 12:33 PM	FRCS p. 260: "we expect to advance the timeline the world about two years per five years of game products and novels", which has been roughly kept to. Of course it refers to the publishing programme, not links between the worlds. I agree with Gray Richardson's interpretation, but then I prefer not to consider the Realms to have a single linear now, from our point of view, at all.
varyar 06-13-07, 12:44 PM	there is a comment to that effect some where, i have a vague recollection of seeing it, possibly it could be a footnote to the time line in the FRCS, but don't quote me on that. It's in the FRCS, I think at the beginning of the Life in Faerun chapter. The ratio is 5 real world years:2 Faerun years.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 01:44 PM	@Dark Wizard - What you proposed at the beginning there is exactly how I ended my Greyhawk campaign... and started my new FR one! The Greyhawk Wars never ended, just took a short break, and the Scarlet Brotherhood and Iuz kept snapping up more and more territory, leaving only tiny pockets of 'good'. Eventually they came into conflict, and Iuz started porting in tons more demons to use. The Brotherhood retaliated by porting in tons of devils to fight them, and things just escalated and got out of hand, and HUGE sections of Oerth began to 'slide' into the outer planes do to 'cosmic destabilization'. The precedent for that, of course, comes from the border towns in planescape. So in effect, I destroyed my old campaign, but sections of it were 'reborn' on a new world - Toril. :D Sorry for going off-topic there, but sometimes its scarey how we come up with such similar concepts. I really like what you've developed for K-T, but the cosmic 'hiccup' is a little rough for something that I have high hopes will be canon someday. Don't get me wrong, I would use that myself, but it might be too extreme for most FR fans to swallow (maybe even worse then the ToT, from an RSE point of view). However, I plan on accomplishing much the same thing as you, but am using a much more mundane mechanism - The Tuigan War. Many nations had to rethink their stance on various things, most especially the Shou, who saw a relatively tiny army defeat the Horde when their own massive one couldn't. I figure that would have been a wake-up call for the Emperor, who was already pre-disposed to trying new things. Also, the Pantheon used the ToT thing to hold a 'meeting' of sorts, to discuss the problems with K-T and possible solutions. When they were devinely reinstated the Celestial Emperor reorganized the religion, fully absorbing at least two other pantheons in the region and folding in other forms of Oriental beliefs, creating a more unified whole. This was attempted in the RW, and it was called Onmyōdō (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onmyodo). Therefore, the Pantheon had an IG reason to change it's stance, and so did the mortal realms. Orientals have always held themselves as superior to western man, and by running with this we can use it to establish what you are referring to as their 'dark age'. In the new 'Age of Enlightenment' that occurred after the Tuigan War, the East recognizes the west's superiority in certain things and opens its border for greater interaction for the very first time. At first only Shou will follow this new stance, but the overwhelming influence of Shou in the region will cause the other major players to shortly follow suit (not wanting to be 'left behind'). This new situation causes a bit of a shake-up as far as borders are concerned, and brings a few powerful Faerûnian types into the east as well. There is instability and uncertainty everywhere. By using the two major RSEs to change both the mortal and Devine realms, we place K-T on the edge of of a socio-economic upheaval, and a wonderful time for adventurers to ply their trade. All of that, without the use of a reality changing 'super-wish'. ;)
Dark Wizard 06-13-07, 11:49 PM	What you proposed at the beginning there is exactly how I ended my Greyhawk campaign... and started my new FR one! ... So in effect, I destroyed my old campaign, but sections of it were 'reborn' on a new world - Toril. That's an interesting direction to take your campaign. It's a bit different from this though. Oerth and Toril are entirely different worlds even if they do vaguely fit into the traditional, pseudo-medieval, sword and sorcery mold. This is far less drastic change, despite the spectacular shake up event involved. I really like what you've developed for K-T, but the cosmic 'hiccup' is a little rough for something that I have high hopes will be canon someday. Don't get me wrong, I would use that myself, but it might be too extreme for most FR fans to swallow (maybe even worse then the ToT, from an RSE point of view). Oh, I hold no illusion that something like this will ever be a consideration, I know it will not. Yet at the same time, I think an equal number of fans find these other continents a bit extreme to accept. I want to like Kara-Tur, but many pieces of it keep pushing me towards the other camp. However, I plan on accomplishing much the same thing as you, but am using a much more mundane mechanism - The Tuigan War. My idea does not exclude the effect of the Tuigan War. ;) Also, the Pantheon used the ToT thing to hold a 'meeting' of sorts, to discuss the problems with K-T and possible solutions. If the pantheons are any reflection of the people involved, or vice versa, this is almost too easy, shared philosophies aside. Especially a voluntary merger of pantheons. I could see individual deities doing so, but not entire pantheons, which don't get along in perfect harmony within themselves. I maintain several pantheons for each of my own campaign worlds, so the separate pantheons of Kara-Tur is one of the aspects I like. That's just my preference. This was attempted in the RW, and it was called Onmyōdō . I think you might be stretching what Onmyōdō is, from what I know of it, which is admittedly very little. However, the overall idea can work, it's like how the Faerunian pantheon is a collection of many smaller and overlapping ones, if you're going for some sort of setting internal parallel (which is a heck of a lot better than cross setting parallel, ex: Earth:Toril). Orientals have always held themselves as superior to western man, and by running with this we can use it to establish what you are referring to as their 'dark age'. In the new 'Age of Enlightenment' that occurred after the Tuigan War, the East recognizes the west's superiority in certain things and opens its border for greater interaction for the very first time. At first only Shou will follow this new stance, but the overwhelming influence of Shou in the region will cause the other major players to shortly follow suit (not wanting to be 'left behind'). I think this is where our perceptions differ vastly. I thought Kara-Tur redux was just going to offer a different look at the existing cultures. This seems a bit too close to Commodore Perry's forced opening of Japan and other examples of heavy handed western intrusion into Asia. You're saying that this arrogance and outlook on personal superiority is a dark age, I disagree wholeheartedly. Some amount of arrogance and pride in one's own nation and people is normal for any group. Westerners are no different, there are plenty of examples of that, some of them very extreme. The more important thing to consider is why a people think themselves superior to others. The key reason for this case is that over much of history, places in Asia had civilizations that equaled, rivaled, or surpassed much of the West. This dynamic is evident when a few hints of a greater Kara-Turan civilization peeks through the lackluster veneer of real world overlays, such as the few mentions in the past and the spelljammer fleets. Sophistication should be somewhere in the ballpark of Evermeet and Halruaa while the scale is much larger given at least one of the spelljamming nations is Shou Lung, which is probably the largest current nation in the known areas of Toril. This is probably how it should have always been; suddenly becoming so within one and a half decades after the ToT/Tuigan Invasion doesn't seem right to me. Personally, I would like to move away from the western-centric viewpoint. There shouldn't be a reason for the overall sentiment in Shou Lung to consider anything notable for adoption in other cultures, at least not in a sudden way following the aftermath of a war with the Tuigan, where the Shou technically forced a stalemate. In real life, the Mongols conquered the Chinese, yet still most of the Mongols eventually faced assimulation into Chinese culture or had to withdraw to preserve their cultural identity. So the Shou should feel a bit smug that their system prevailed, albeit at a slim margin, especially if propaganda and history have a way of glossing over the details. To recreate the dynamic of the late Qing/Tokugawa period of East Asia (when the Orient was first forced to consider input from the West) in Kara-tur is to bring the whole thing too close to modern times for a Realms set up. Whatever modern ideals present in the Realms should be inherent in the base culture. Just like the more modern ideas in Faerun did not need a corresponding real world analogy of the Enlightenment and the sudden burst of democratic ideals and human rights concept in America and Western Europe. It's hard to explain, I feel the opening of Kara-Tur idea you have is placing the emphasis on Faerun once again, while I'm trying to make it that Kara-Tur has always been "great." I'm not sure if that makes sense. I know I probably see this a lot different than others.
Dark Wizard 06-14-07, 12:11 AM	All of that, without the use of a reality changing 'super-wish'. ;) I actually don't feel the RSE is thematically anathema or even foreign to the Realms. Faerun has a history of punctuated equilibrium involving massive magical incidents. This is not limited to the recent decades. The Time of Troubles was just one such incident. The battle between Selune and Shar, the Sundering, the descent of the dark elves, the Fall of Netheril, the Imaskari anti-deity barrier, the Dawn Cataclysm - all of these events involve gods and mortals in cosmic events, often loosely defined and far reaching across space and time. In short the most awesome kind because a great deal of mystery still suffuses them. Honestly, many of them are little more than a super-wish. I will admit that one of the main reasons for my extravagant personal retcon is to break down my own mental blocks. When I treat Kara-Tur as a blank slate (as much as possible after this personal retcon) it helps force me to think outside of the box. I am not tied down to anything. I have pieces of the old, a free ticket to use only what I want, and parallels with Faerun which hopefully ties together some overarching concepts and themes rather than just artificial historic links. This personal retcon is not certain to survive to the end.