Cotsq, tactics. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cotsq, tactics. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ZooL
02-05-04, 08:35 AM I didnt know if i shoud post this here or under whats a dm to do. Ill post it here since city of the spider queen is in forgotten realms.

Anyways, ive been dm`ing this adventure, and since its not 3.5 almost all the drows carry potions of haste. Its good for fighters but for casters it isnt very good any more, since haste in 3.5 doesnt allow a caster to cast another spell. What i wanna now is what could they be carrying instead or perhaps they would use different tactics than just casting lightning bolt all the time.
Cunning Linguist
02-05-04, 09:26 AM well, most of the wizards also carry a wand or a few scrolls, you can still use one of these, and cast a spell in the same round. So, I'd keep the potions.
brum
02-12-04, 10:37 AM Use wands/scrolls in addition to spells in the same round??! Could you please elaborate?
Cunning Linguist
02-12-04, 02:43 PM Sorry, my bad. It's a minor house rule, my players where outraged since the fighter got a exstra attack, and the mage did not get to use anything. So we said "ok, no second spell, but one action" Took away the +1 attack bonus also.. now haste is good for all classes.
brum
02-12-04, 02:47 PM ZooL's problem (as well as mine) is left unresolved... :(
Herr Doktor
02-12-04, 11:53 PM Eh... Metamagic rods with Quicken Spell might work?
ender
02-14-04, 03:19 AM I would reccomend simply getting more creative with your spell use. If lightning bolt is boring, mix it up. Charm them, dominate them, confuse them, curse them, fool them with illusions, trap their souls, polymorph the casters, scare them, exhaust them, blind them, shatter their armor, grease their weapons, touch of idiocy the casters, ray of enfeeble the fighters, etc ad nauseum. Remember that the drow are crafty devils. Well, not devils, elves actually... but you get the idea. :)
Zanan
02-14-04, 04:19 AM Check out simple spell/attack combinations. Drow may want to take captives and their spellcasters (arcane) may use e.g. the true strike & tanglefoot bag combination to stop bad savers (fighters or other spellcasters) running about. Simple, but efficient.

Actually, there has never been a "two spells castable in one round" - option in D&D before 3E and that is fair enough. Remember, two fireballs or (always hit) 10 magic missiles hurt much more than two swings with a greatsword. The only option here would be the quicken spell feat (which requires a decent caster though).
Mumm-Ra
02-18-04, 12:14 PM Try the ball lightning spell..unfortunately its a 5th lvl spell, so only suitable for use by high lvl casters. The revamped spell is in UE (if I am not mistaken-or is it the underdark?), which supersedes the MoF version.
If I remember correctly, the balls of lightning can be controlled with a move action, letting the caster unleash another spell whilst controlling the lightning spheres. sorry not to be more exact, I don't have the sourcebooks here.
brum
09-22-04, 07:58 PM Eh... Metamagic rods with Quicken Spell might work?
Auch! What's the price on that one? Got to be expensive!
Fourthmensch
09-22-04, 09:06 PM Auch! What's the price on that one? Got to be expensive!

35,000 for lesser; 75,500 for standard; 170,000 for greater (DMG p. 236).

Try the ball lightning spell..unfortunately its a 5th lvl spell, so only suitable for use by high lvl casters. The revamped spell is in UE (if I am not mistaken-or is it the underdark?), which supersedes the MoF version.
If I remember correctly, the balls of lightning can be controlled with a move action, letting the caster unleash another spell whilst controlling the lightning spheres. sorry not to be more exact, I don't have the sourcebooks here.

Ball lightning was extensively retooled for 3.5; the up-to-date version appears in the PGtF.
warlockco
09-23-04, 12:00 AM Give them a different boost potion (Displacement or other defensive potions), but the advantages of haste are still nice, they aren't god like they were in 3E but still nice in 3.5E
They work better for weapon combatants true, but a wizard that can move 60 and then cast a spell is pretty rude.
schulerta
09-23-04, 12:10 AM What happens when those Quicken Rods fall into the hands of the party casters. I don't think that is a viable alternative.

Troy
Purple Dragon Knight
09-23-04, 01:30 AM I switched all the haste potions to displacement potions... that allows the drow casters to stay alone if an isolated spot for many rounds (no one wants to "waste" a fireball on a lone wizard... they always go for the warrior groups; and fighters going one on one with those have a 50% chance to miss their swings every time...)

This resulted, in our game, with the wizards lasting MUCH longer, and being able to almost exhaust their spells most of the time...

Oh, and they always cast Shield on round two, because the players are smart and always use wands of magic missiles against casters...
ClobberinTime
09-23-04, 11:13 AM If they are having too easy of a time just up the number of low level fighters and let the mages cast defensive magic.

Also one of the main problems with the module as is, is that even though the alarm is raised most of the NPCs just stay where they are and wait to die (because drow are chaotic supposedly and therefore STUPID). So have them work in teams, and bigger groups. Have making the alarm raised mean something. the fight in the temple at the bottom of Szith Morcane could be very rough if they all gather in the temple and wait for the PCs. Same thing for castle Maerdrymira. There are a couple of points the PCs have got to pass through unless they use pass wall or something, That could really give the defenders an advantage. This of course really depends on the forbiddence holding up.

Along the lines of blur, mirror image is also very good against fighters, also make them smart enough to go against the good saves (i.e. Fort vs. Mages, Will vs. Fighters).

I would also give all of them that could get it the blindfight feat and have them drop darkness and deeper darkness all over the place. This works just like blur, i.e 50% miss chance.
Purple Dragon Knight
09-23-04, 09:18 PM I would also give all of them that could get it the blindfight feat and have them drop darkness and deeper darkness all over the place. This works just like blur, i.e 50% miss chance.According to the SRD, darkness is only 20%... something I don't like too much about 3.5(but good for wizards, considering they get 20% concealment while being able to target spells outside the darkness zone...)
ClobberinTime
09-28-04, 04:05 PM But they still can only cast area spells like fireball, and not spells that require line of sight like hold person, mass charm, etc....
Purple Dragon Knight
09-29-04, 07:40 PM But they still can only cast area spells like fireball, and not spells that require line of sight like hold person, mass charm, etc....Anything not requiring an attack roll is still made without any penalties whatsoever (charm person, hold monster, magic missile, summon monster, etc. etc. etc.) Pretty much anything except rays... Darkness does not block line of sight nor does it block line of effect: it's a simple 20% miss chance.
ClobberinTime
09-29-04, 08:45 PM Yeah your right in 3.0 Darkness granted total concealment, now its just concealment, nerfed it.
Purple Dragon Knight
09-30-04, 05:15 AM Yeah your right in 3.0 Darkness granted total concealment, now its just concealment, nerfed it.Which makes sense for the drow anyway... otherwise why would they want to drop darkness over themselves? 3.0/3.5 darkness is also a touch spell, which means it's more useful to cast on yourself than your enemies; 2nd edition darkness was a range spell of total concealment, which meant you could center it on enemies and blind them. It now makes sense to have darkness nerfed to 20% because it is something that will most likely be centered on the caster...

By the way, Deeper Darkness, with a huge 60-foot radius is awesome for protecting the party, especially if the fighters of the group have Blind-Fight... Try having evil NPCs use this tactic, especially if they have Darkvision (i.e. Underdark fight; party has Daylight; evil NPCs have Deeper Darkness; Daylight and Deeper Darkness cancel each other out, which brings the two groups in total darkness (Underdark); those with Darkvision see normally; most party members are blinded... ;) )
ClobberinTime
09-30-04, 04:58 PM I thought deeper darkness was still only 20%??? I think the drow would use it like you said and that most drow fighters would take the blindfight feat because of this. Drizzt used it effectively in the last series, he'd drop it around him when he was surrounded and used it to move through his enemies, change the terrain etc...
Purple Dragon Knight
09-30-04, 06:42 PM Yes, Deeper Darkness is 20%, but read my post carefully: Deeper Darkness and Daylight cancel each other out, so what do you think this means when you are underground, exploring caves in utter darkness? ;)
Zardnaar
10-04-04, 02:50 AM Theres a spell in the BoVD that creates darkness that evil beings can see through.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZooL 02-05-04, 08:35 AM	I didnt know if i shoud post this here or under whats a dm to do. Ill post it here since city of the spider queen is in forgotten realms. Anyways, ive been dm`ing this adventure, and since its not 3.5 almost all the drows carry potions of haste. Its good for fighters but for casters it isnt very good any more, since haste in 3.5 doesnt allow a caster to cast another spell. What i wanna now is what could they be carrying instead or perhaps they would use different tactics than just casting lightning bolt all the time.
Cunning Linguist 02-05-04, 09:26 AM	well, most of the wizards also carry a wand or a few scrolls, you can still use one of these, and cast a spell in the same round. So, I'd keep the potions.
brum 02-12-04, 10:37 AM	Use wands/scrolls in addition to spells in the same round??! Could you please elaborate?
Cunning Linguist 02-12-04, 02:43 PM	Sorry, my bad. It's a minor house rule, my players where outraged since the fighter got a exstra attack, and the mage did not get to use anything. So we said "ok, no second spell, but one action" Took away the +1 attack bonus also.. now haste is good for all classes.
brum 02-12-04, 02:47 PM	ZooL's problem (as well as mine) is left unresolved... :(
Herr Doktor 02-12-04, 11:53 PM	Eh... Metamagic rods with Quicken Spell might work?
ender 02-14-04, 03:19 AM	I would reccomend simply getting more creative with your spell use. If lightning bolt is boring, mix it up. Charm them, dominate them, confuse them, curse them, fool them with illusions, trap their souls, polymorph the casters, scare them, exhaust them, blind them, shatter their armor, grease their weapons, touch of idiocy the casters, ray of enfeeble the fighters, etc ad nauseum. Remember that the drow are crafty devils. Well, not devils, elves actually... but you get the idea. :)
Zanan 02-14-04, 04:19 AM	Check out simple spell/attack combinations. Drow may want to take captives and their spellcasters (arcane) may use e.g. the true strike & tanglefoot bag combination to stop bad savers (fighters or other spellcasters) running about. Simple, but efficient. Actually, there has never been a "two spells castable in one round" - option in D&D before 3E and that is fair enough. Remember, two fireballs or (always hit) 10 magic missiles hurt much more than two swings with a greatsword. The only option here would be the quicken spell feat (which requires a decent caster though).
Mumm-Ra 02-18-04, 12:14 PM	Try the ball lightning spell..unfortunately its a 5th lvl spell, so only suitable for use by high lvl casters. The revamped spell is in UE (if I am not mistaken-or is it the underdark?), which supersedes the MoF version. If I remember correctly, the balls of lightning can be controlled with a move action, letting the caster unleash another spell whilst controlling the lightning spheres. sorry not to be more exact, I don't have the sourcebooks here.
brum 09-22-04, 07:58 PM	Eh... Metamagic rods with Quicken Spell might work? Auch! What's the price on that one? Got to be expensive!
Fourthmensch 09-22-04, 09:06 PM	Auch! What's the price on that one? Got to be expensive! 35,000 for lesser; 75,500 for standard; 170,000 for greater (DMG p. 236). Try the ball lightning spell..unfortunately its a 5th lvl spell, so only suitable for use by high lvl casters. The revamped spell is in UE (if I am not mistaken-or is it the underdark?), which supersedes the MoF version. If I remember correctly, the balls of lightning can be controlled with a move action, letting the caster unleash another spell whilst controlling the lightning spheres. sorry not to be more exact, I don't have the sourcebooks here. Ball lightning was extensively retooled for 3.5; the up-to-date version appears in the PGtF.
warlockco 09-23-04, 12:00 AM	Give them a different boost potion (Displacement or other defensive potions), but the advantages of haste are still nice, they aren't god like they were in 3E but still nice in 3.5E They work better for weapon combatants true, but a wizard that can move 60 and then cast a spell is pretty rude.
schulerta 09-23-04, 12:10 AM	What happens when those Quicken Rods fall into the hands of the party casters. I don't think that is a viable alternative. Troy
Purple Dragon Knight 09-23-04, 01:30 AM	I switched all the haste potions to displacement potions... that allows the drow casters to stay alone if an isolated spot for many rounds (no one wants to "waste" a fireball on a lone wizard... they always go for the warrior groups; and fighters going one on one with those have a 50% chance to miss their swings every time...) This resulted, in our game, with the wizards lasting MUCH longer, and being able to almost exhaust their spells most of the time... Oh, and they always cast Shield on round two, because the players are smart and always use wands of magic missiles against casters...
ClobberinTime 09-23-04, 11:13 AM	If they are having too easy of a time just up the number of low level fighters and let the mages cast defensive magic. Also one of the main problems with the module as is, is that even though the alarm is raised most of the NPCs just stay where they are and wait to die (because drow are chaotic supposedly and therefore STUPID). So have them work in teams, and bigger groups. Have making the alarm raised mean something. the fight in the temple at the bottom of Szith Morcane could be very rough if they all gather in the temple and wait for the PCs. Same thing for castle Maerdrymira. There are a couple of points the PCs have got to pass through unless they use pass wall or something, That could really give the defenders an advantage. This of course really depends on the forbiddence holding up. Along the lines of blur, mirror image is also very good against fighters, also make them smart enough to go against the good saves (i.e. Fort vs. Mages, Will vs. Fighters). I would also give all of them that could get it the blindfight feat and have them drop darkness and deeper darkness all over the place. This works just like blur, i.e 50% miss chance.
Purple Dragon Knight 09-23-04, 09:18 PM	I would also give all of them that could get it the blindfight feat and have them drop darkness and deeper darkness all over the place. This works just like blur, i.e 50% miss chance.According to the SRD, darkness is only 20%... something I don't like too much about 3.5(but good for wizards, considering they get 20% concealment while being able to target spells outside the darkness zone...)
ClobberinTime 09-28-04, 04:05 PM	But they still can only cast area spells like fireball, and not spells that require line of sight like hold person, mass charm, etc....
Purple Dragon Knight 09-29-04, 07:40 PM	But they still can only cast area spells like fireball, and not spells that require line of sight like hold person, mass charm, etc....Anything not requiring an attack roll is still made without any penalties whatsoever (charm person, hold monster, magic missile, summon monster, etc. etc. etc.) Pretty much anything except rays... Darkness does not block line of sight nor does it block line of effect: it's a simple 20% miss chance.
ClobberinTime 09-29-04, 08:45 PM	Yeah your right in 3.0 Darkness granted total concealment, now its just concealment, nerfed it.
Purple Dragon Knight 09-30-04, 05:15 AM	Yeah your right in 3.0 Darkness granted total concealment, now its just concealment, nerfed it.Which makes sense for the drow anyway... otherwise why would they want to drop darkness over themselves? 3.0/3.5 darkness is also a touch spell, which means it's more useful to cast on yourself than your enemies; 2nd edition darkness was a range spell of total concealment, which meant you could center it on enemies and blind them. It now makes sense to have darkness nerfed to 20% because it is something that will most likely be centered on the caster... By the way, Deeper Darkness, with a huge 60-foot radius is awesome for protecting the party, especially if the fighters of the group have Blind-Fight... Try having evil NPCs use this tactic, especially if they have Darkvision (i.e. Underdark fight; party has Daylight; evil NPCs have Deeper Darkness; Daylight and Deeper Darkness cancel each other out, which brings the two groups in total darkness (Underdark); those with Darkvision see normally; most party members are blinded... ;) )
ClobberinTime 09-30-04, 04:58 PM	I thought deeper darkness was still only 20%??? I think the drow would use it like you said and that most drow fighters would take the blindfight feat because of this. Drizzt used it effectively in the last series, he'd drop it around him when he was surrounded and used it to move through his enemies, change the terrain etc...
Purple Dragon Knight 09-30-04, 06:42 PM	Yes, Deeper Darkness is 20%, but read my post carefully: Deeper Darkness and Daylight cancel each other out, so what do you think this means when you are underground, exploring caves in utter darkness? ;)
Zardnaar 10-04-04, 02:50 AM	Theres a spell in the BoVD that creates darkness that evil beings can see through.