Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Simbul 08-04-07, 11:02 PM	...umm yeah. before I go any further, let me make it perfectly clear that despite my objections to the choice of cover art that I WILL be purchasing this tome, and that I strongly implore everyone else here to do the same (although I am still tempted to have my copy professional re-bound into a non-illustrative cover). Moreover, I am not disparaging the quality or talents of the artist, and the cover art is nice...it is just (IMO) on the wrong book. So when I think of "The Grand History of the Realms", I usually think of the Dawn Cataclysm, or mortal catastrophes like the fall of Netheril, Imaskar, or Narfell and Raumathor. Alternatively, I think of the scores of sages, bards, and loremasters who chronicle it in Candlekeep, the Vault of the Sages, or the Herald's Holdfast. Or perhaps historical figures like the late Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun, or deities of lore like Oghma, or not-so-cataclysmic events like the founding of the Harpers in "the place where Gods walk". I could probably go on for hours on all the things that come to mind when I first heard the title, that could serve to fit for an illustration adorning a tome dealing with the vast and interwoven history of Faerūn. However, the furthest from my mind when I think of "Realms history" is Drizzt Do'Urden. At best, I can think of three possible reasons why Drizzt Do'Urden is on the cover of this book; 1) Grand History of the Realms may have not originally been planned as a publication, and as such no new art could be commissioned for it in time, and thus they decided to resort to a rejected cover art piece originally intended for one of the ENDLESSLY reprinted, republished, re-released versions of every novel in the Drizzt saga (because apparently new cover art or a new collector box is all it takes to make someone buy 3+ copies of Homeland) 2) Because the book presumably contains no feats, prestige classes, spells, magic items, or monsters and instead focuses exclusively on the lore of Faerūn. Thus they were worried/paranoid it would not sell as well...and thus felt compelled to put Drizzt on the cover (and include a story by RAS...which presumably would star you-know-who) in hopes that it would boost sales via the Drizzt fanbase. 3) They gathered up a list of 100 iconic individuals in the realms, assigned a number to each of them, and then rolled 1d100 to determine who would be on the cover....then, after Drizzt was not the result, they decided to roll again and again ad infinitum until his number came up.
Lord Karsus 08-04-07, 11:04 PM	-May I ask your hand in marriage, Simbul?
GothicDan 08-04-07, 11:13 PM	I preferred the original cover for this particular book, myself.
Meldread 08-04-07, 11:42 PM	Heh, I love your righteous indignation. :P I have to agree and I laughed at the thought of a bunch of business executives rolling a 1d100 over and over until Drizzt's number came up, but in all likelihood I think it was #2.
Thinblade 08-04-07, 11:45 PM	And if it gets those Drizzt masses to buy the book and therefore convince WotC to make more like Grand History, you won't hear the slightest peap from me.
Dark Wizard 08-05-07, 12:01 AM	And if it gets those Drizzt masses to buy the book and therefore convince WotC to make more like Grand History, you won't hear the slightest peap from me. Unless they come on message boards and start ranting about how there wasn't enough: 1) Drizzt and company in the book. 2) Feats, prestige classes and other crunch. 3) Feat, prestige classes and other crunch to help them restat Drizzt as the dual-wielding melee god that he is. If this happens (somewhat possible) and if they come in sufficient numbers (very likely if the former happens) then it could instead mean WotC may never published another lorebook for FR again. There are consequences to improper packaging and labeling. Unfortunately, WotC may misconstrue the sales figure or the fan criticisms in the wrong way, thinking people don't want lorebooks at all when it was a misused cover all along. Of course this is a worst case scenario. Still, I hold the greatest hope (as small a glimmer it is) that the current cover is only a place holder until something more appropriate is turned in by the artist commissioned to create one. In that case they can take their sweet time to make it nice.
Krash 08-05-07, 07:47 AM	So when I think of "The Grand History of the Realms", I usually think of the Dawn Cataclysm, or mortal catastrophes like the fall of Netheril, Imaskar, or Narfell and Raumathar. Yeah, me too. Especially the Narfell and Raumathar bit. I'm hoping the scribblings on the goristro demon hide made it past the editorial cut.:D -- George Krashos
Iakhovas 08-05-07, 09:26 AM	I preferred the original cover for this particular book, myself.I'll pass this on to my wife Dan. She was the artist of the original cover and will enjoy the feedback.
Red_Wizard 08-05-07, 09:56 AM	Yeah, me too. Especially the Narfell and Raumathar bit. I'm hoping the scribblings on the goristro demon hide made it past the editorial cut.:D -- George Krashos I'd like to see minimal to no cuts for once to be honest. I wonder if they'll ever realise, that WE WANT LORE IN ABUNDANCE. Look at 2E, then look at 3E, and there is no comparrison in the lore quality, or ammount. Maybe, just maybe, they can give us one more good detailed, size 10 font book. I don't like being able to read a book from across the room, and I like even less having much of it be nothing more than poorly done pictures crammed in awkwardly around thrown together stat blocks. p.s. I know there aren't supposed to be statblocks.
Suin Bahhar 08-05-07, 10:06 AM	The art itself is very pretty. I absolutely love Todd Lockwoods style. I'd almost buy this for the art alone. I hope he's done some work for the illustrations inside. The book will be a resounding succes, we all know that. Essential for any realmsfan for the lore we all crave. I agree its a shame Todd had to use Drizzt, I would have preferred Elminster or someone with more historical oomph. Does anyone already know the Slavatore story will actually involve Drizzt?
GothicDan 08-05-07, 10:16 AM	I'll pass this on to my wife Dan. She was the artist of the original cover and will enjoy the feedback. Oh! What a pleasant surprise. Glad to give compliments to the family. :)
Andyr 08-05-07, 10:59 AM	I preferred the original cover for this particular book, myself. Ditto. Iakhovas: your wife is talented, then. :)
msatran 08-05-07, 11:22 AM	I would have preferred the old hot women in heavy armor or diaphonous clothing method. myself. That worked every time. :) That's the thing I never understood. Wizards would find gimmicks that worked, and then throw them out the window. In fact, it's started to reach the point where if something worked, it was guaranteed to be thrown out the window. Tome of Nine Swords? WTF? Where was Richard Baker's brain when this book was written. Probably in the same place as Farthest Reach. :) I actually DREAD this when Eytan gets around to writing it. I loathe these classes, they're all mightier than every fighter and wizard created put together. They're theme destroying. Suddenly one of the mightiest gods in the Realms is....Auppenser? Huh? Isn't he dead? Marshall? Dragon Shaman? Light the crack pipe, ladies and gentleman! Eytan should not have to waste his time crafting numerous explanations for binders, healers, and other new core classes, and working them into backstory. I feel bad for the guy. He loves the Realms, he does his job, and this is what he gets stuck doing. Every so often, I just grab my head, look at what Wizards makes these poor guys do, and scream "MAKE IT STOP!"
MarkusTay63 08-05-07, 12:35 PM	Ditto. Iakhovas: your wife is talented, then. :)And a vote for her art as well, my friend. ;) I have stated this before in the other thread, but I will reiterate, despite the fact that folks might not like my opinion. I do not like the chose of cover art either (the picture itself IS beautiful though); however, I would have made the EXACT same decision. There are people, believe it or not, who have heard of Drizzt but not the Forgotten Realms. They know who RAS is, but have no idea who Ed Greenwood is. There are people who play the computer games who have been able play Drizzt (I think they have to 'unlock' the char), but are clueless about Creator races or Dawn Cataclysms. This book is for ALL OF US, not just the P&P players. If it helps the novel fans and vid-game players make the jump over to P&P, more power to it. It was a VERY sound business decision, even though the lovely pic is somewhat innapropriate. @Iakhovas - Is the original artwork supposed to be Alaundo? It has theat 'Candlekeep' feel to it. :cool:
Old Sage 08-05-07, 12:42 PM	@Iakhovas - Is the original artwork supposed to be Alaundo? It has theat 'Candlekeep' feel to it. :cool:Hehe... I always assumed it was based somewhat on Brian himself. :P
Faraer 08-05-07, 12:59 PM	I feel the same about this cover as I posted to Candlekeep.com: I love the landscape, I like the different format from the other Realms sourcebooks, and I can't guess whether the positives of selling Realmslore to Bob Salvatore fans will outweigh the problem of further anchoring the public image of the Realms to Drizzt.
msatran 08-05-07, 01:28 PM	It matters if he dies. The thing is, that Drizzt leads a warrior's lifestyle. Great Warriors do not die at home surrounded by their friends. Great warriors die fighting. Unless he's going to become a hermit, when Drizzt finally dies, I assure you that Mr. Salvatore will make it worth the price of admission.
Alurvelve 08-05-07, 01:59 PM	Typical for some of you.
GothicDan 08-05-07, 02:18 PM	Wow, Alurvelve. Way to completely miss the point and drive home our dislike of rabid Drizzt fans. No one was decrying Drizzt as a character (well, not much) or giving RAS a literary critique. I believe very logical opinions were stated regarding the disapproval of Drizzt on the cover (or any other figure that has little to do with any particular historical epochs of the realms), and it seems almost as if you completely ignored the actual opinions being expressed.
Alurvelve 08-05-07, 03:54 PM	Typical for some of you.
GothicDan 08-05-07, 04:22 PM	No I didnt diregard any of it, I am jsut sick of all the so called bashing that people do about Drizzt and Salvatore's writting. This is proof that you missed the point. No one professed to dislike Drizzt on the cover because of anything specific to the character. Where was Salvatore's writing even mentioned? At most, it was inferred by many that Drizzt is on the cover due to his popularity. You professed as much yourself. Why is it more correct when you say it, but not when the Simbul does? If you do not like it then do not buy it. Never judge a book by its cover. And I missed the point how? because what yall think should be on the cover is not, cmn'sand grow up. See above. You're the only one acting juvenile in the thread. Try to have a civil discussion with people of differing opinion instead of throwing a tantrum, eh?
Alurvelve 08-05-07, 05:14 PM	Typical for some of you.
Thinblade 08-05-07, 06:19 PM	Sigh. Let me speak slowly, maybe that will help you understand. This is not about our like or dislike of Drizzt, RAS, his writting, or his popularity (Drizzt's, or RAS's). Some of us like them, some of us don't. Personally, I have enjoyed most of RAS's books, though I haven't discussed them on this board, EVER. What this is about is that we do not agree that Drizzt is a proper character to appear on the cover of a book devoted entirely to the history of Faerun. Is Drizzt a powerful person? Certainly. Has he had an impact on a portion of the Realms? Without question. Is he integrally tied into the history of the entire contient, a mover and shaker across nations? Not on your life. Drizzt's impact has been fairly localised to a specific portion of one section of Faerun (the Savage North, specifically Mithral Hall, Ten Towns, and their environs). He's never been much east of Silverymoon. He's been south of Waterdeep all of once. The average people of the Dalelands have probably never heard of him, to say nothing of Thay, or Halruaa. His impact has also been short, time-wise. By elven standards, he's still a kid (not yet 100), and he's only really started to influence things in the past 20-30 years. Not a long track record. Compare this to the other obvious choice for the cover: Elminster, who is over 1,000 years old. Born in the North, he's travelled widely, done things of lasting impact on a national (helped create Myth Drannor's mythal) and personal (trained and protected hundreds of apprentices, and Shandril) level. A person whose influence extends far beyond his lone person (through the Harpers, those other apprentices, and his own meddling). And he's been doing this for centuries. The effect he's had on the Realms is literally incalcuable. Personally, I would have liked the cover to be of some ancient civilisation now vanished, since it is a tome of history.
Lord Karsus 08-05-07, 06:39 PM	Who cares IF they put him on the cover to boost sells. -Obviously, we do. Thats what they and we want. -That's not what we want. Who cares if they added a story from RA Salvatore to boost sales, thats a good thing. -Obviously, we do. The more it sells the more publicity FR gets. Also with the 20 years of Drizzt around the corner exspect a lot more Drizzt to be seen. -Not all "publicity" is a good thing. Was it good when Dungeons and Dragons was all over the news, because people began linking it with "Demonistic suicide pacts", or whatever it was? Rabid Drizzt fans have already sullied the Realms to outsiders, who believe it to be Drizzt, and nothing else. Having the company perpetuate this misconception is certainly not a good thing. Never judge a book by its cover. -Literally, in this case. Wold you care for me to dig up he number of threads that have certain people in this thread saying how much they dilike Drizzt and Salvatore. -Things happen for a reason. People wouldn't dislike either of the two if there wasn't a reason. Reason I am throwing a tantrum so to speak, is because I amtired if jsut sitting here while people talk bad about something that has made FR famous and well known. -See my example above. Before you call someone juvenile look at yourself and your own posts. -Uh, he wasn't exactly acting immature, there. And, by adding him to your ignore list (I never realized that people actually used that feature), you aren't really helping your cause. What this is about is that we do not agree that Drizzt is a proper character to appear on the cover of a book devoted entirely to the history of Faerun. Is Drizzt a powerful person? Certainly. Has he had an impact on a portion of the Realms? Without question. Is he integrally tied into the history of the entire contient, a mover and shaker across nations? Not on your life. Drizzt's impact has been fairly localised to a specific portion of one section of Faerun (the Savage North, specifically Mithral Hall, Ten Towns, and their environs). He's never been much east of Silverymoon. He's been south of Waterdeep all of once. The average people of the Dalelands have probably never heard of him, to say nothing of Thay, or Halruaa. His impact has also been short, time-wise. By elven standards, he's still a kid (not yet 100), and he's only really started to influence things in the past 20-30 years. Not a long track record. Compare this to the other obvious choice for the cover: Elminster, who is over 1,000 years old. Born in the North, he's travelled widely, done things of lasting impact on a national (helped create Myth Drannor's mythal) and personal (trained and protected hundreds of apprentices, and Shandril) level. A person whose influence extends far beyond his lone person (through the Harpers, those other apprentices, and his own meddling). And he's been doing this for centuries. The effect he's had on the Realms is literally incalcuable. -Right on the money, Thin. Personally, I would have liked the cover to be of some ancient civilisation now vanished, since it is a tome of history. -I would have liked a simple "dusty tome" look, myself, though a landscape of some forgotten ruins would have been nice, too.
GothicDan 08-05-07, 06:50 PM	Man. I figured Mr. Miscellany would be the one to put me on ignore first. Or Derren. Wait, I think Weiser_Cain did a long time ago... I'd feel special if I had been ignored by someone with an emotional depth more than that of a zealous 12 year old. ;) Can anyone point out to me how I was juvenile in any of these posts? *cough.*
Lord Karsus 08-05-07, 06:53 PM	Wait, I think Weiser_Cain did a long time ago... -I wonder whatever happened to Cain...:confused:
GothicDan 08-05-07, 06:57 PM	Maybe I scared him... Her... Off. Get on AIM so we can quit hijacking this.
Lord Karsus 08-05-07, 07:03 PM	-Sure. (And, for the record, I believe that Cain was a 'she'.)
Alediran 08-05-07, 07:17 PM	I'm with Simbul on this too, the realms aren't drizzt. They are much bigger than him and a book that covers much of the realms history can't have a cover that represents so little about it.
Alurvelve 08-05-07, 07:18 PM	Typical for some of you.
GothicDan 08-05-07, 07:32 PM	No one bashed Drizzt. On THIS thread. People may well have done so on previous threads, but to flip out, overreact, and insult people on THIS one for performing such heinous crimes ONLY IN YOUR HEAD is simply inexcusable. You've done nothing but show everyone on this thread, who WERE NOT BASHING Drizzt before, that at least one of his (many) fans doesn't know how to differentiate past from present, reality from fiction, and etiquette from infantile squalling. Now, if ever before, we have a REASON to not want such lore-based books to be targeted at a Drizzt-fan-based audience. You'll excuse me if I get a little miffed by the repeated displays of people not seeming to know how to interpret the words being said on this thread. Wait, you won't. But oh well.
Lord Karsus 08-05-07, 07:36 PM	So you know /addignore was an exspression. Didn't even know this board has such a thing. -Yep. There is also a buddy list.
MarkusTay63 08-05-07, 07:41 PM	Actually a composite would have been nice, showing a scene from the Dark Disaster, a Netherese Enclave, Ra battling the archmage of Imaskar, a Halruan skyship (a real one, not the 'blimps' they usually throw on covers), Cortel's landing at Maztica, and maybe the Terraseer in the middle... juggling everything. ;) Too bad I have a good imagination but no artistic talent. :P
MerrikCale 08-05-07, 08:38 PM	I don't know, unlike GothicDan, I like Drizzt. The cover seems attractive to me.
GothicDan 08-05-07, 08:55 PM	A lot of people who posted in negative response to the cover like Drizzt, too. It's not a matter of who we personally like or dislike, but more a matter of how innately appropriate it is. For instance, I like Josidiah Starym, but he wouldn't make much sense as being the sole and main character on the cover (though he'd make a HAIR more sense than Drizzt).
Karsus the Mad 08-05-07, 09:30 PM	I'd personally rather not have any picture on the cover. I'd like a nice tome that resembled....a tome. With a Candlekeep stamp/engraving/mold in the bottom corner. Maybe even have the edges of the pages look like a wax seal had been placed. This is prolly going to be my favorite setting product ever.
godbeepit 08-05-07, 09:31 PM	Rabid Drizzt fans have already sullied the Realms to outsiders, who believe it to be Drizzt, and nothing else. Having the company perpetuate this misconception is certainly not a good thing. I believe I would be a prime example of this. It took me several years for me to touch an FR book simply out of spite for Drizzt without even trying to find out anything else about it. I don't even know where I heard of Drizzt to have found my severe dislike for him, all I know is he almost ruined the Realms for me. That being said, I'm glad I did buy the FRCS even if I can't find anyone running it in my area.
Old Sage 08-05-07, 09:34 PM	I tend to agree with the viewpoint George expressed over in the GHotR discussion scroll at Candlekeep. There's seems to be a lot of emphasis on which types of products we'll see with the future of the FR line, depending mostly on sales for GHotR. Thus, there may be a lot resting on how well this particular product does in sales. Using such a popular icon of the FR, namely Drizzt, on the front cover, may encourage Realms fans who usually avoid such tomes, to purchase it as well. Additionally, Drizzt fans who only know of the Realms through RAS, may pick up the book out of curiosity also, and become more aware of the wider Realms. As much as I would've loved to have seen an unnamed loremaster pouring over some ancient tomes of lost historical knowledge on the cover, I can appreciate the reality that WotC are making sure they reach as much of the FR, and by extension, the RPG market, as possible with the cover image of this particular sourcebook.
Lord Karsus 08-05-07, 09:43 PM	I'd personally rather not have any picture on the cover. I'd like a nice tome that resembled....a tome. With a Candlekeep stamp/engraving/mold in the bottom corner. Maybe even have the edges of the pages look like a wax seal had been placed. -Great aspects think alike. :cool: I believe I would be a prime example of this. It took me several years for me to touch an FR book simply out of spite for Drizzt without even trying to find out anything else about it. I don't even know where I heard of Drizzt to have found my severe dislike for him, all I know is he almost ruined the Realms for me. That being said, I'm glad I did buy the FRCS even if I can't find anyone running it in my area. -And, we're happy to have you in the "greater community", now. :)
Xelcra 08-05-07, 10:48 PM	Hi all! :D To me, it felt as if they were associating the whole of the realms to Drizzt with that which makes FR feels 'small' when it should be otherwise. Also, if I were to look at the cover from afar, I would've thought that that was an art for another Drizzt-only related product, especially with the words 'The Grand Hi' a little bit blended to the background. However, the cover is indeed beautiful just like the rest of Todd Lockwood's arts.
Alurvelve 08-06-07, 03:52 AM	Typical for some of you.
Krash 08-06-07, 06:50 AM	This is prolly going to be my favorite setting product ever. :hides: It's comments like that which send chills down my spine. And not in a good way. I hope this thing lives up to all your expectations. -- George Krashos
Alleran 08-06-07, 07:31 AM	Yes I am one of his MANY FANS. And so what I decided to talk back to what seems to be the status quo(sp?) for people like you. Just to make a point, I have no objections to Drizzt - I do enjoy the character. He isn't my absolute favourite fantasy character, or my favourite Realms character (that particular honour would go to Khelben), but he's up there, partly because he's a warrior and not a mage - which I won't go into right now, since it's not really all that relevant. His being a warrior, however, is also the problem I have with him being on the front cover of the sourcebook. Drizzt isn't a historian, really. Nor is he the sort of character who has had a widespread impact on the Realms as a whole in terms of the history of the setting. If the book was solely a history pertaining to areas of the setting where Drizzt "is", such as the Underdark or the Savage North, then I would in all likelihood have no problems with him being on the cover. In fact, the "Guide to the Underdark", if I am remembering correctly, was narrated by Drizzt - and it was an appropriate move to make, given his connections to the area and his position as being somebody who could give an account of what can be found there to surface scholars. However, this isn't a guide to the Underdark, or the Savage North. It's a history of the entire Realms from way back in the times of the Creator Races right through to the current year (1375DR?). And in that sort of published sourcebook, Drizzt, a warrior who has really only had an impact on very few areas of the Realms, is not an appropriate character to be on the front cover. It won't stop me from purchasing a copy, of course - you don't even see the cover art of the book while you're reading it. But that doesn't mean that an image of Drizzt is in any way the most suitable character to be on the cover.
captaincarot 08-06-07, 07:51 AM	well so far the general consensus seems to be you lot don't like the pic and the anticipation of it's release is the best laxative the crash has ever had. personally i like the cover, it's good artwork, to me it evokes the majesty of the setting.
Calmar 08-06-07, 09:00 AM	I agree with the Karsuses (Karsi/ Karsae/ dunnohow ;)), old tome would be nice, too. Can anyone show me the first version of the cover? I am just finding the Drizzt version. (BWT, Cortel is not just a lame Amnian immitation of Cortez conquering the new world, is he..?)
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 09:14 AM	Can anyone show me the first version of the cover? I am just finding the Drizzt version. -That would be the cover on the PDF version, if you have it. (BWT, Cortel is not just a lame Amnian immitation of Cortez conquering the new world, is he..?) -Why, yes, yes he is. What in Maztica isn't a lame immitation? ;) Yes I am one of his MANY FANS. And so what I decided to talk back to what seems to be the status quo(sp?) for people like you. Would you rather me make a thread titled To all you Drizzt and Salvatore haters, because I will, an can. I've been on the boards for years and always just set by when people like you and a few others in the post talk crap about things like this, and am sick of it. -You are still missing the point- Drizzt doesn't belong on the cover of this product. Would it make much sense to have a minor Lieutenant from the Spanish-American War on the cover of a history book about the entire history of the United States? And WELCOME to being on the SAME level as me with YOUR bickering SON. -I'm pretty sure that Dan doesn't have offspring.
Uzzy 08-06-07, 09:20 AM	I quite like the cover. It's very nice and artistic. It belongs on Grand History of the Realms about as much as a picture of Angelina Jolie dressed up as Alusair Obarskyr though. Drizzt it not the be all and end all of the Realms. The picture would work great on one of the many reprints of Drizzt novels though. I'm quite indifferent to the character really. It's not going to stop me buying a copy though. I just wish they could have put a piece of artwork on the cover that shouted out 'Forgotten Realms' Oh, also.. Can I marry you too, Simbul? ;)
GothicDan 08-06-07, 11:44 AM	Yes. The gay 22 year old in college has thousands of sons. Millions! And they are all more mentally developed than Alurvelve, apparently, even if they're imaginary. That being said, deciding to ignore idiocy rather than directly argue with brick walls, I'll say the idea of a nice bound tome feel would have been very nice, too. SOMETHING related to history, Candlekeep, etc. would have been nice. (Also, an erotic picture of Kimil Nimesin, but that wouldn't have made much sense, eh?)
Eli_the_Tanner 08-06-07, 12:27 PM	I find the cover quite poetically beautiful really. Drizzt is a minor character in the history of the realms and is certainly a very young hero. However he is also currently the most iconic realms character (Elminster simply doesn't reach those who don't play P&P). Drizzt is a historical figure in the making, a young hero forging a name for himself in these forgotten realms. To have a picture of him looking at the land he is entering and seeing remnants of the past empires and heroes before him, it is quite evocative really. Drizzt is part of the new, somewhat controversial generation of heroes, giving a nod towards the great stories that have come before. Eventually Drizzt will go the same way as those great stories of old and fall into the realm of nostalgia and legend. It is fitting that the new should reflect upon the old.
GothicDan 08-06-07, 12:32 PM	That is a very touching sentiment, and perhaps one of the more suitable explanations I've heard for possibly having him on the cover. It would make more sense, in my opinion, if it was on the cover of, say, a book of adventures - history in the making. But this book is all about the PAST, it seems like. Drizzt is NOT the past. He's the future, as you said. Very, very different in sentiment, in my opinion. But still, you've earned a check in the 'pro' column, at least, against the dozen or so checks in the 'con' one. ;)
Alurvelve 08-06-07, 12:58 PM	I went though and edited all of my posts so that all you.....can continue with your typical responses. Since you want a voice silenced that does not agree with yalls I will make sure to stay out of all thread pertaining to you.
ClobberinTime 08-06-07, 01:15 PM	The Simbul clearly laid out the reasons for the cover in #2 in the OP. I.e. Drizzt sells. If Drizzt sells books that have the content that you all enjoy, while clearly books like you all want haven't traditionally sold well, and therefore are on the verge of being discontinued. Why oh why would you complain. Its completely irrational. If Having Drizzt on the cover ups the sales 1% you all should jump for joy and kiss the feet of whoever came up with this idea. Really I mean it, you guys are in a vast vast demographic minority on the sorts of realms books you will or will not buy.
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 01:28 PM	I went though and edited all of my posts so that all you.....can continue with your typical responses. Since you want a voice silenced that does not agree with yalls I will make sure to stay out of all thread pertaining to you. -Alurvelve...I- er...Never mind...:rolleyes: If Drizzt sells books that have the content that you all enjoy, while clearly books like you all want haven't traditionally sold well, and therefore are on the verge of being discontinued. Why oh why would you complain. Its completely irrational. -We (at least, I) don't have any sales data.
Faraer 08-06-07, 01:47 PM	Obviously, it's much easier to criticize any possible cover concept than to symbolize the history of the Realms in one illustration. For instance, contra Thinblade, I prefer Drizzt there to Elminster as historical actor, a role which should be secret, behind the scenes, and subordinate to his function as a sage.. . . while clearly books like you all want haven't traditionally sold well, and therefore are on the verge of being discontinued.Clearly? We have no reason to believe any such thing. What is clear is that there are factors other than short-term sales, otherwise Drizzt should be on every cover.
Francius 08-06-07, 02:22 PM	Well, this thread is the perfect example of showing the true nature of a die-hard FR fan. Arguing over a book cover. Nice. I don't have a problem with that other than Kid SIxXX will be amused and laughing under his moustache while reading it. I 've had the exact same discussion with Lord Karsus over three weeks ago and the feeling was mutual. It was the first time we agreed on something.
GothicDan 08-06-07, 02:37 PM	I went though and edited all of my posts so that all you.....can continue with your typical responses. Since you want a voice silenced that does not agree with yalls I will make sure to stay out of all thread pertaining to you. I didn't want your voice silenced, personally. I would have preferred you to have stated your opinion to something topical, though. Moving on.
Mad Mage 08-06-07, 02:38 PM	I've checked this thread, and I don't know if this has been mentioned: Anybody know what this "original cover" (or is it an alternate) was supposed to be? :confused:
GothicDan 08-06-07, 02:39 PM	If Drizzt sells books that have the content that you all enjoy, while clearly books like you all want haven't traditionally sold well, and therefore are on the verge of being discontinued. Why oh why would you complain. Its completely irrational. If Having Drizzt on the cover ups the sales 1% you all should jump for joy and kiss the feet of whoever came up with this idea. Really I mean it, you guys are in a vast vast demographic minority on the sorts of realms books you will or will not buy. Well, complaining about the book cover won't change the sales, especially since all of us who dislike the cover are buying it anyway. That being said, I have stated several times I would hardly be devastated if WotC gave up rights to FR. I think the best thing that happened to Planescape was WotC discontinuing it.
GothicDan 08-06-07, 02:40 PM	I've checked this thread, and I don't know if this has been mentioned: Anybody know what this "original cover" (or is it an alternate) was supposed to be? A sage at Candlekeep pouring over tomes. Done by Brian's wife, apparently. :)
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 03:20 PM	I've checked this thread, and I don't know if this has been mentioned: Anybody know what this "original cover" (or is it an alternate) was supposed to be? :confused: -I mentioned it before. The original cover was the cover on the PDF version. Well, this thread is the perfect example of showing the true nature of a die-hard FR fan. Arguing over a book cover. Nice. -We're all that die hard. :) I don't have a problem with that other than Kid SIxXX will be amused and laughing under his moustache while reading it. -At least he would have purchased a copy. ;) I 've had the exact same discussion with Lord Karsus over three weeks ago and the feeling was mutual. It was the first time we agreed on something. -It was such a strange feeling, too. ;)
Francius 08-06-07, 04:00 PM	@ Aluverve: I have to apologize to you as a passionate Drizz't fan that I am, for not taking part on this discussion and for not supporting your thesis (which ipotheticaly should be mine too) on this subject. The reason for this, however, is twofold. 1st. I only today noticed the existence of this thread as I haven't been visiting these boards as of recently. 2nd (and most important). I agree with the posters who said that Drizz't is perhaps not the most suitable character to solo-appear on the cover of a tome named "A Grand History of the Realms". Here's some excerpts of my posts of a discussion I had with another poster regarding this issue. Hope it helps you understand why albeit all the love I have for Drizz't I would have liked a somewhat different cover for the aforementioned book: I have to be honest here. Neither did I expect to see Drizzt on the cover of a book concerning the whole wide history of the Realms through the milennia. And I agree that Drizzt is just a small (if not tiny) part of what the Realms have to offer. He's also the very first character to be put down on a written novel that saw birth on 1987 (the year of the release of the Grey Box) and one of the very first icons the Realms spawnned during their dawn - others that come to mind are Elminster (duh), the Seven sis, Shandril, Knights of Myth-Drannor... Some people dislike the drow, but we have to take under consideration the fact that Drizzt is perhaps the best-selling series of novels in the FR franchise and one of the top ten in the whole modern fantasy genre (or somewhere up there). It's the reason some people were first attracted by the Realms. It's still the mean I (and many others too) use to introduce new generations of players in our world. To sum it up, the renegade drow is undoubtedly one of the best pieces of fantasy litterature, top-ten famous fictional fantasy character and firstborn of the Realms; so: he can be a very valid candidate for the Grand History book cover art but not the sole and indisputable one. [...] Clearly, in the whole history of Faerun (creation to present) Drizzt plays a very small part. Why, he's only been alive for less than a century and a half (born in 1297 DR). If you take the discussion to the level that the cover has to depict something important for the time-flow of Faerun, you're completely right: - Drizzt's presence there is not granted nor exclusive and Elminster's one (being over a thousand year old) is much more suitable as are others' exept Drizzt. If, on the other side, we are discussing that the cover must be fed with an iconic FR character that is both very popular, fan favourite, inspiring and for the last part commercial (bad, bad word) no matter what, then Drizzt's presence there is completely justified as Elminster's would have been.
Francius 08-06-07, 04:05 PM	-We're all that die hard. :) Why are you talking only about you and the others? Haven't I proved how diehard I am about the Forgotten Realms? Some people... At least he would have purchased a copy. ;) Kid SixXx? Buy a copy of a premium book about the Realms? :thinks: -It was such a strange feeling, too. ;) Yeah well, not that we have discussed many times before anyway. We 'll see more about this issue in the future. :D
MarkusTay63 08-06-07, 04:18 PM	I'm in agreement with Francius on this one - I have read EVERY RAS FR book to date, and I like Drizzt (mind, I said 'like', not drooling, mindless worship of said charcter). I have not read most of the books by Elain or Ed <GASP!>, but they are on my reading list. Some writers I read because I enjoy their writing style, while others I read because of the sheer volume of realmslore I can gleen from them. However, just because I enjoy reading about Drizzt doesn't make him appropriate for a work like this. But from a business perspective he has become THE icon for the Realms, sadly replacing that old lovable letch, Elminster. Like I said before, if the cover makes even one novel-reader or BG/NWN player buy it, then I'm all for it. The Realms appeal to different folks for different reasons, and I congratulate the designers (for once) on trying to actually produce a product ALL fans can enjoy. It's just that Drizzt has the 'Street Cred' to get this in the hands of the masses. :cool:
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 04:50 PM	Why are you talking only about you and the others? Haven't I proved how diehard I am about the Forgotten Realms? Some people... -I was just saying in general...:rolleyes: Kid SixXx? Buy a copy of a premium book about the Realms? :thinks: -Yep. He's a fan, too.
Francius 08-06-07, 04:59 PM	-I was just saying in general...:rolleyes: Well, you should be more specific regarding such an important issue. Excluding me from the list of Forgotten Realms die-hard fans is a very offensive thing. By the way, I was being sarcastic on the previous post. :rolleyes: -Yep. He's a fan, too. That, strikes me as new.
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 07:23 PM	That, strikes me as new. -Why do you think he knows so much about the Realms?
Dark Wizard 08-06-07, 07:38 PM	Seeing that this is an 'eternal' lorebook (the information likely will not become obsolete come the next rules edition) they could have tried something that the comics industry does - collectible alternate covers.
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 07:50 PM	Seeing that this is an 'eternal' lorebook (the information likely will not become obsolete come the next rules edition) they could have tried something that the comics industry does - collectible alternate covers. -Though an interesting idea, WotC/TSR has never done chase covers in the past. Why start now, especially when this is already a "risky" undertaking?
Eli_the_Tanner 08-06-07, 07:56 PM	As the majority of the arguments for the current pic are continuing along the lines of 'it looks good' or 'drizzt is popular and therefore will make more money' I think it's safe to say Drizzt has lost this fight. It seems that most have come to the decision that Drizzt is not most suitable character for the Grand History of the Realms and that Elminster or some other long-standing Sage character should be depicted. Who are people hoping to replace Drizzt? Elminster, Khelben.... I think I heard somone mention Alaundo, Larloch? Volo???
Zandilar 08-06-07, 08:30 PM	Heya, Like I said before, if the cover makes even one novel-reader or BG/NWN player buy it, then I'm all for it. I don't understand this comment. 1) Drizzt made a cameo in BG, BG2, or both (I cannot recall right at this moment). He was someone you could kill, and I've read many a forum thread about people taking great delight in doing just that. (There are a lot of fan forums for those games, let me tell you!) 2) Elminster made a cameo in both games too, I think. Not sure if he was killable, though. (In both cases, neither of them played much of a pivotal role at all, and I believe an encounter with the former could be avoided without much effort - but it has been a long time since I've played the games from start to finish, so I could be wrong.) Going by that, a BG player would be just as likely to buy a book with Elminster on the cover. 3) Neither Elminster nor Drizzt made an appearance, cameo or otherwise, in NWN (can't speak for NWN2, as I've never finished the campaign). An NWN player might have heard of Drizzt if they fall into the category of BG player... But I don't think they'd really be compelled to buy a book based on his face. What I think you're thinking of - someone who has only been exposed to the Realms through RAS's best selling Drizzt novels is more likely to buy the Grand History of the Realms.
GothicDan 08-06-07, 08:40 PM	Who are people hoping to replace Drizzt? Elminster, Khelben.... I think I heard somone mention Alaundo, Larloch? Volo??? No to all about Alaundo or Volo, and I have to say that I LOVE Larloch and Khelben, and like Elminster. But I'm not letting my personal biases get in the way. ;)
Eli_the_Tanner 08-06-07, 09:06 PM	But I'm not letting my personal biases get in the way. ;) Of course not dear sir, we must remain the paragons of objectivity and integrity. .....Go Larloch!! :cheer:
Alleran 08-06-07, 09:09 PM	Who are people hoping to replace Drizzt? Elminster, Khelben.... I think I heard somone mention Alaundo, Larloch? Volo??? I would have liked to see Khelben, but given his situation, that might be a bit of a problem, so a scribe of Candlekeep or maybe Elminster would be my other choices - of course, Elminster is more appropriate than Drizzt, but that doesn't mean he's the most suited to the position either. And Volo just wouldn't be appropriate unless we were to get a bunch of footnotes from Elminster and the "heavily edited" feel. 1) Drizzt made a cameo in BG, BG2, or both (I cannot recall right at this moment). In the first one, you could help him fight some gnolls near Baldur's Gate. In the second one, he helps you clear out a nest of Vampires. He was killable in both games. 2) Elminster made a cameo in both games too, I think. Not sure if he was killable, though. He wasn't.
MerrikCale 08-06-07, 09:22 PM	For instance, I like Josidiah Starym, but he wouldn't make much sense as being the sole and main character on the cover (though he'd make a HAIR more sense than Drizzt). the difference of course is that for many (myself included) Drizzt was their introduction into the Realms. Therefore, I think there is some sense to the cover from that point of view
Eli_the_Tanner 08-06-07, 09:47 PM	the difference of course is that for many (myself included) Drizzt was their introduction into the Realms. Therefore, I think there is some sense to the cover from that point of view I think there is merit in this argument as I stated before. Drizzt is the point from which an adventurer views the history of the realms. Elminster and others are the ones who helped make the history we endevour to learn about. Such historic characters are often as big(if not bigger) than the history they are representing. Drizzt Do'Urden is big now but seems small and almost insignificant compared to the Grand History of the Realms - I think this is an appropiate feeling to capture with this tome. If Drizzt is a contemporary of the player's then it is with him that we look back at the past. Elminster is part of history not a student of history.[I realise this last statement is not true by itself. Please take it in context with and in relation to the last paragragh] P.S. sorry for restarting an argument I myself had pronounced dead. Consider this a further explanation of my first post.
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 11:34 PM	the difference of course is that for many (myself included) Drizzt was their introduction into the Realms. Therefore, I think there is some sense to the cover from that point of view -Again, though, the Realms suffer from a problem where outsiders believe it to be "L0lzzz!!!11! Drissssitz roox0rz!!1", when we all know that it's a lot more than that- actually, it's not that at all (;)). Do we really want this misconception to continue to be perpetuated?
GothicDan 08-07-07, 12:04 AM	I'm sort of almost offended (but not quite) at the very idea of basing the cover of a book on what might have been one's first exposure to the Realms. Firstly, I've really got no idea of the demographics of such a thing, but I would imagine that just as many were exposed to the Realms basically by playing the game and having DMs who ran it. Secondly, what has that argument have to do with this actual tome, moreso than any other? Do new players really look back on the entire history of Faerun in any way that is influenced by Drizzt? I'm really not quite sure as to the POIGNANCY of this particular argument. It sounds metaphorically good (hence the one point), but in the end it just has no actual basis in psychological fact as far as I can tell. When you look at the cover of a book and see Drizzt, what do you think? Pretending you didn't actually see the NAME of the book.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-07-07, 01:09 AM	I'm sort of almost offended (but not quite) at the very idea of basing the cover of a book on what might have been one's first exposure to the Realms. I agree with you on this point here. I don't believe that just because Drizzt is the hook for many inductees into FR that this is the reason people stick(or should stick) with the realms. Nor should a book that delves deeply into realmslore continue to rely on a continuing gimmick. Do new players really look back on the entire history of Faerun in any way that is influenced by Drizzt? No, they don't look back because of Drizzt, Drizzt looks back because we do. We enter into these forgotten realms of our imagination stumbling from one inn to the next, from one adventure to the next. Along the way each player sees relics of past ages, lands, societies, stories and histories and wonder about it. Who created this tomb? Why are these people here? We turn to the history, Drizzt as a what I consider fellow/rival/contempoary adventurer with ones character, will do the same. We have all been playing this game so long and have learnt so much that sometimes we forget the wonder of unknown adventures. This is not just a book for those are seraching for new knowledge but also for those that have yet to begin the search. When you look at the cover of a book and see Drizzt, what do you think? Pretending you didn't actually see the NAME of the book. Literally the picture is of local adventurer stopping in his travels to look at some ruins......a rather simple and oft overlooked moment during ones adventuring career. When we add what we already know we get further from that simple fact. Add knowledge of the characters name, the name and history of the particular ruins, where the local area is, it's history, the characters past, it all accumulates until it ceases to represent what is actually happening. Other characters could represent the theme of the book (history) much more succintly due to them being practically saturated with it. Yet they will not capture the reason the book is written in quite the same way. Those who don't know the Realms(or Drizzt) will see an adventurer looking at a castle past it's glory days and relate with the questions that are going through the adventurers head. For those who know the realms(or Drizzt) will hopefully understand what is happening, they will know the nature of the character, the lands around him and his relationship to it. They can see his place in the realms compared to the history that he knows nothing of. ....Perhaps I'm being a bit optimistic, nostalgic or even just feeling a bit poetic. Either way, at the moment I can see a possible message that is trying to be portrayed in the picture. I can empathise with the moment and emotions that I can see when I look at the cover. Maybe someone else can see this too, I know I've played it a dozen of times.
MarkusTay63 08-07-07, 02:21 AM	-Again, though, the Realms suffer from a problem where outsiders believe it to be "L0lzzz!!!11! Drissssitz roox0rz!!1",Drizzt isn't Rooxrz, I can easily pwn him. ;) And besides, and REAL computer gamer knows that Chuck Norris could kick his @ss. :monk: A piccy of Khelben would be kinda gross... all rotting away and stuff... wasn't he even missing a couple of limbs toward the end there.... @Zandilar - I heard somewhere that you could 'unlock' Drizzt and play him in one of the comp-games - don't know which one. I play many comp/vid games, AND many P&P games, but never comp/vid games that are based on P&P games. I'm one of those people that has to keep everything seperate on his plate. :P
Dark Wizard 08-07-07, 02:45 AM	I think it was Demon Stone. I got bored with it after the first boss so I haven't actually played as Drizzt. The game used some D&D terms but not the system, yet wasn't an interesting third-person beat them up either, so it ended up very average as a game. Also, Patrick Stewart didn't work for me as the voice of Khelben.
Alleran 08-07-07, 03:29 AM	Drizzt is an unlockable character in Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance. He's only so-so, really - takes a bit of thinking to learn how to use effectively.
Lord Karsus 08-07-07, 09:39 AM	Drizzt isn't Rooxrz, I can easily pwn him. ;) -Oh. Well, either way.
Zandilar 08-07-07, 09:41 AM	Heya, @Zandilar - I heard somewhere that you could 'unlock' Drizzt and play him in one of the comp-games - don't know which one. I play many comp/vid games, AND many P&P games, but never comp/vid games that are based on P&P games. I'm one of those people that has to keep everything seperate on his plate. :P Well yes. You can, as has been mentioned - it was in one of the DA games (unlocked by completing the game on the easiest difficulty, basically). Maybe I'm a touch jaded, but I doubt anyone playing those games on the Xbox or the PS2 would be buying Grand History of the Realms, even with Drizzt on the cover - at least not unless they already fall into the subset of game players who are already fans of either Dungeons and Dragons, or RAS's Drizzt novels. My point remains, however. The audience that Drizzt's image on the Grand History of the Realms is aimed at, is not computer game players... It's novel readers and Dungeons and Dragons players. So don't blame the CRPGs for this! :P
Lord Karsus 08-07-07, 09:57 AM	Well yes. You can, as has been mentioned - it was in one of the DA games (unlocked by completing the game on the easiest difficulty, basically). -Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance and Demonstone. Maybe I'm a touch jaded, but I doubt anyone playing those games on the Xbox or the PS2 would be buying Grand History of the Realms, even with Drizzt on the cover - at least not unless they already fall into the subset of game players who are already fans of either Dungeons and Dragons, or RAS's Drizzt novels. My point remains, however. The audience that Drizzt's image on the Grand History of the Realms is aimed at, is not computer game players... It's novel readers and Dungeons and Dragons players. So don't blame the CRPGs for this! :P -Any medium has the potential to attract new fans to the setting. All you need is someone with a modicum bit of curiosity and interest, and bada bing, there you go.
msatran 08-07-07, 10:17 AM	Well, all that being said, Drizzt is actually rather tiny on the cover, and most of it is a landscape painting, that seems rather vast and huge. Fanboy logic? Or subtle sarcasm. You decide.
GothicDan 08-07-07, 01:09 PM	Hee....
MarkusTay63 08-07-07, 02:28 PM	Well, all that being said, Drizzt is actually rather tiny on the cover, and most of it is a landscape painting, that seems rather vast and huge. Fanboy logic? Or subtle sarcasm. You decide.True, and if it wasn't for his Kitty it could of been ANY Dark Elf on the cover - an advanced scout perhaps, overlooking the territory they plan to conquer. Or maybe even a kindly Miyeritar Ranger, taking in the beauty and majesty of Faerūn... just before the gold Elves murder him and his family. :P It could actually be anyone on the cover - Elminster with a shapechange, a doppleganger, Khelben in his early days (he spent too much time in the sun?), a fan-boy on his way to a Ren-fair.... ;)
GothicDan 08-07-07, 02:41 PM	Or maybe even a kindly Miyeritar Ranger, taking in the beauty and majesty of Faerūn... just before the gold Elves murder him and his family. Man, if the Miyeritari were as annoying as you, I don't blame the Vyshaanti. ;)
Stigger 08-07-07, 03:04 PM	Play nice kiddies, or no more of those yummy troll treats for you. :tongue: Though I'd agree that the cover looks fairly uninspiring from my perspective. Not sure what I was expecting, but that certainly wasn't it...
Zandilar 08-07-07, 05:06 PM	Heya, -Any medium has the potential to attract new fans to the setting. All you need is someone with a modicum bit of curiosity and interest, and bada bing, there you go. The other point I was trying to make, that obviously got lost in the translation (figuratively of course, we still speak English down here), is that Drizzt comprises such a tiny tiny part of the BG and BG: DA games that using him on the cover is not likely to attract those people who have played those game but have not otherwise been exposed to the Forgotten Realms (I can't speak for Demonstone here, since I've never played it and didn't even realize you could "unlock" Drizzt in it). (No, I don't know what would do it. Probably the distinctive logos used on the covers of the BG, BG: DA, or even the NWN games)
MarkusTay63 08-07-07, 05:16 PM	Man, if the Miyeritari were as annoying as you, I don't blame the Vyshaanti. ;)HE SHOOTS....... HE SCORES!!!! and the crowd goes wild.... :cheer: C'mon... you know you love me. ;) Play nice kiddies, or no more of those yummy troll treats for you. :tongue:Are they anything like Scooby Snacks? :drool:
MerrikCale 08-07-07, 09:19 PM	-Again, though, the Realms suffer from a problem where outsiders believe it to be "L0lzzz!!!11! Drissssitz roox0rz!!1", when we all know that it's a lot more than that- actually, it's not that at all (;)). Do we really want this misconception to continue to be perpetuated? Frankly, that misconception (and I agree its a misconception) doesn't really bother me since I don't care what the anti-FR crowd thinks anywho. I find the cover to be a nice homage and thats it. Perhaps a better cover would have been El with his pipe (and I never liked El). But this is fine with me
Lord Karsus 08-07-07, 11:42 PM	Frankly, that misconception (and I agree its a misconception) doesn't really bother me since I don't care what the anti-FR crowd thinks anywho. -The Anti-Forgotten Realms crowd does have a big mouth, remember.
Mad Mage 08-07-07, 11:58 PM	Yeah, I'm not bugged overall, either. Still, though, I would've preferred Drizzt to be accompanied by a slew of memorable faces of the Realms, past & present. -The Anti-Forgotten Realms crowd does have a big mouth, remember. True, but look at the anti-Michael Bay-Transformers crowd, the anti-Captain America's Death-Marvel-Civil War crowd, etc. Eventually, somebody's gotta whine, cry and scream about something along those lines.
Green Elven Vampire 08-08-07, 12:03 AM	Personally I don't buy books for their cover. I don't care if it had a bullywug eating a jelly doughnut.
msatran 08-08-07, 01:23 AM	It would be better than a catoblepas eating a jelly donut
GothicDan 08-08-07, 02:12 AM	Because then we'd all be dead when we looked at the cover.
MarkusTay63 08-08-07, 04:52 AM	:rimshot:
Eli_the_Tanner 08-08-07, 10:52 AM	Yeah, I'm not bugged overall, either. Still, though, I would've preferred Drizzt to be accompanied by a slew of memorable faces of the Realms, past & present. Nice idea, it would be good having characters leading back through time. But I think would evoke less thoughts of history but rather of the characters - Grand Compendium of Characters or some such....
Stigger 08-08-07, 02:38 PM	Much better than Scooby Snacks Markus... ;) Personally, having thought of it a bit, I think an interior scene of Candlekeep or something like the Library of Curna would have been more appropriate.
Francius 08-08-07, 04:48 PM	-Why do you think he knows so much about the Realms? I think that his knowledge is somehow superficial.
Francius 08-08-07, 04:52 PM	Yeah, I'm not bugged overall, either. Still, though, I would've preferred Drizzt to be accompanied by a slew of memorable faces of the Realms, past & present. Me too. Better yet, I would prefer to see a picture of a grand Realmsian city (Halarahh?) with its buldings in a perspective view from above instead of faces looking at me or the emptiness.
Francius 08-08-07, 04:57 PM	Frankly, that misconception (and I agree its a misconception) doesn't really bother me since I don't care what the anti-FR crowd thinks anywho. I find the cover to be a nice homage and thats it. Perhaps a better cover would have been El with his pipe (and I never liked El). But this is fine with me LK seems to believe that this misconception is much bigger than its actual dimensions. I ,for one, when I incur in debates over FR vs Greyhawk vs Eberron vs whatev in the other generic D&D threads i rarely meet people (although anti FR in nature) that are convinced that the FR are just Drizz't. In fact many more of them mention to me Elminster to show that they know something about the Realms.
KismetRose 08-08-07, 06:09 PM	My problem with the cover is that it doesn't mesh with the title, at least in my opinion. The GRAND history of the Realms. Grand. Big mountains in the background just don't cut it. If you're going to put the word "grand" in there, then I want to see something representative of some of Faerun's grandest moments and civilizations. History. If you're going to play up the history, I want a cover more historical than what Drizzt can offer. Drizzt hasn't been around that long, honestly. I understand that they wanted to grab a historical and popular figure from the Realms, but c'mon. You know what I would have loved to have seen on the cover? The fall of Karsus, or at the very least the fall of Netheril, or something else along those lines. Something truly grand, with great historical impact and significance, and something that we haven't seen a billion times before. I like Drizzt, for the most part, but in this capacity he is completely the wrong choice.
msatran 08-08-07, 06:14 PM	The entire point of my last post was that he's merely a tiny little spectator. :) I actually sort of like the landscapey look of it.
Diffan 08-08-07, 08:39 PM	I dunno, the legendary Iconic character gazing at the majesty of the surrounding landscape has a nice feel to it. Though I personally rather go for a nice artist's rendering of the world of Aber-Toril with maybe gods or some such in the heavens, or maybe an artist's collage of the many popular NPCs in dramatic poses like some of the other Best of the Realms books. But people can whine and complain all they want, the cover isn't going to change so I'd suggest you deal with it.
Lord Karsus 08-08-07, 08:44 PM	I think that his knowledge is somehow superficial. -He's like a Aboleth. He absorbs the knowledge of everything (and everyone) he consumes.
Francius 08-08-07, 08:50 PM	-He's like a Aboleth. He absorbs the knowledge of everything (and everyone) he consumes. Are you talking from a personal, first-hand experience? (meaning that he managed to absorb some of your knowldege). Otherwise, there's no explanation.
Lord Karsus 08-08-07, 09:04 PM	Are you talking from a personal, first-hand experience? (meaning that he somehow managed to absorb some of your knowldege). Otherwise, there's no explanation. -Ever wonder happened to LLKN? Brennon arranged from SixXx to meet with LLKN. The results were not pretty.
Francius 08-08-07, 09:05 PM	-Ever wonder what happened to LLKN? Brennon arranged from SixXx to meet with LLKN. The results were not pretty. LLKN? Brennon?
MerrikCale 08-08-07, 10:16 PM	Personally I don't buy books for their cover. I don't care if it had a bullywug eating a jelly doughnut. now that would have been cool
Lord Karsus 08-08-07, 11:06 PM	Brennon? LLKN? -Fellow posters. now that would have been cool -Bullwugs don't get enough representation. Seriously, in my campaign setting, I created an entire nation of Bullywugs.
GothicDan 08-08-07, 11:16 PM	I'm afraid.
Lord Karsus 08-08-07, 11:35 PM	-They worship a primitive Eel deity, and are constantly at war with the savage Human tribes that exist on the same island continent.
godbeepit 08-08-07, 11:44 PM	As you should be. Bullywugs are known for their terror-inducing qualities, especially in large numbers. It's like a frightful presence with a DC -100, but with you making millions of saves you'll fail eventually.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-09-07, 12:16 AM	I heard it was statistically impossible to be afraid of a Bullywug.
MarkusTay63 08-09-07, 01:47 AM	*** RIBBIT *** :P :P :P This guy's cool - http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/054/7/8/Frog_Warrior_by_kyoht.jpg
Suin Bahhar 08-09-07, 08:32 AM	Imagine the feeling you'll get when this guy graced the cover of grandhistory. Peering over the grand landscape with his wet bulbous eyes, spear held high, armor and green skin glinting in the sun... Outrage I tell you!
Francius 08-09-07, 01:11 PM	-Ever wonder happened to LLKN? Brennon arranged from SixXx to meet with LLKN. The results were not pretty. Brennon and LLKN are fellow posters. What do they have to do with anything? Are you afraid the same result will occur to you?
MarkusTay63 08-09-07, 01:14 PM	I don't know, I kinda like the cover... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/ElminsterCover.jpg ;) Feel free to paste thhis over the other one when you get it. :P
Francius 08-09-07, 01:23 PM	I don't know, I kinda like the cover... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/ElminsterCover.jpg ;) Feel free to paste thhis over the other one when you get it. :P Markus... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Suin Bahhar 08-09-07, 04:06 PM	El seems so.. out of place :) And he doesnt seem to notice he's being chased by a big black panther oO This will do fine; thanks Markus, savior of the boards!
Stigger 08-10-07, 04:23 AM	Nicely done there Markus... I envy your editing skill so immensely right now... :rofl:
msatran 08-10-07, 08:26 AM	Somehow, I think what should really be there are a Cormyrean Farmer, his dog, his family, and his "Shadow Tomatoes...."' :)
Eli_the_Tanner 08-10-07, 01:05 PM	http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/ElminsterCover.jpg ;) ....El admires his new pipe, thinking to himself "That was lucky! CG Drow Rangers just happen to be the components I need to make my pipes"
MarkusTay63 08-10-07, 01:28 PM	I was going to edit out Guenhwyvar as well. and place a hot drow babe at his feet, but I couldn't find anything fitting. So now I figure the panther is looking over the cliff, and thinking to Elminster - "I know he was a whiney little pr__k, but did you have to PUSH him off?" :D And El is enjoying his latest favorite 'pipeweed' sent to him by his ex-scribe -Tethyrian Gold; it's so much smoother then that 'Red-Haired Chultan' he was smokin' for awhile. ;) @Msatran - Shadow 'maters.. :rofl:
Suin Bahhar 08-10-07, 01:56 PM	I hear Shadow Tomatoes are a fast growing market in the Dales... I get the sudden urge to eat some redshadow pasta a la rothe!
MarkusTay63 08-10-07, 02:19 PM	I prefer the Shadow Bolognese with just a hint of Stenchowl musk... Mmmmmmm... With Wyvern bits of course - rothe meat is just so 'plebian'. ;) To keep this on topic, what would others like to see on the cover? :plotting:
msatran 08-10-07, 02:33 PM	You know, I think we should sort of adopt the Shadow Weave tomatoes as our symbol of just how ridiculous the City of Shade is until Wizards gets rid of it, or throws Richard Baker into a lava pit, whichever happens first.
MarkusTay63 08-10-07, 02:38 PM	Great idea! We can form a 'secret society' whose goal is to undermine Shade and remove it from existance - perhaps even going as far as performing a little 'Chronomancy' to erase even the memory of it from our brains. I'll get started on a 'club emblem' at once. :D
GothicDan 08-10-07, 02:43 PM	Can I be the club's Grand Archmage? Msatran could be the scathing Bard. ;)
MarkusTay63 08-10-07, 02:59 PM	I don't care who's in charge, as long as I get to do the heraldry. :D This is such a widespread and all-incompasing feeling, that members of all races, creeds, and 'colors' (as in, Gold Elves :P ) are more then welcome. :cheer: Maybe they could just say an enormous Sarlacc ate it? http://www.starwars.com/databank/creature/sarlacc/img/movie_bg.jpg
GothicDan 08-10-07, 03:01 PM	I'm not sure I can be part of such a liberal organization... ... Unless I'm the Grand Archmage! Let's see some Elves on the cover, looking down on evil Drow. ;)
MarkusTay63 08-10-07, 03:08 PM	How about a compromise? Obould on the cover... right after he tossed Drizzt over the edge. :devil:
GothicDan 08-10-07, 03:11 PM	But I hate Orcs! Oh, wait, but you don't... Right! Compromise. :)
Andyr 08-10-07, 06:50 PM	Shadow Weave tomatoes?
msatran 08-10-07, 07:34 PM	God, Marcus, we're going to have to dig that one up, aren't we? I don't even remember how I came up with this (REALLY) stupid idea, but it all came out of what Cormyrean farmers might learn/know about the Shadow Weave. Plus, I'm fond of the Sarlacc. :) However....we need something Realmsy. Something that says..."You can't be serious..." How about Volo coming out of the John....
MarkusTay63 08-10-07, 11:07 PM	The Emblem for the trans-planar anti-Shade league. (didn't come out as good as I hoped) - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Tomatoshield.jpg Because Shade smells as bad as Shadow 'maters!
GothicDan 08-10-07, 11:10 PM	I like it! *Adds something to Sig.*
MarkusTay63 08-10-07, 11:26 PM	And for those of you who didn't like the cat... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/ComboCover.jpg :D
GothicDan 08-10-07, 11:29 PM	I'd buy that book for its cover. GO ARILYN!
MarkusTay63 08-11-07, 12:00 AM	I don't even know who she is, but the pose was perfect. :D And now, with a Netherese Enclave... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/ComboCover2.jpg (Okay... I know it's really the Cloud City from Star Wars, but it just looked sooo cool...) :rolleyes:
GothicDan 08-11-07, 12:02 AM	Make it black and add fire, and rotate it clockwise 45 degrees. Shade Enclave, sinking. :)
godbeepit 08-11-07, 12:08 AM	First off, daaaaaang Markus that's amazing. I think I just soiled myself in amazement. Second, whole-heartedly agree with Dan. Needs to be City of Shade. Not that I have anything against them, but.... it'd be funny. Like in the ironic sense.
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 12:22 AM	What do they have to do with anything? Are you afraid the same result will occur to you? -I...You...Never mind...:rolleyes: Somehow, I think what should really be there are a Cormyrean Farmer, his dog, his family, and his "Shadow Tomatoes...."' :) -I love Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #2. Can I be the club's Grand Archmage? -No! I thought of the bit, so the position is mine. You can be my apprentice, however. :P I don't even remember how I came up with this (REALLY) stupid idea, but it all came out of what Cormyrean farmers might learn/know about the Shadow Weave. -You! That was me! :eek: Shadow Weave tomatoes? -In whatever thread it was, we were discussing the Shadow Weave, and the possible reprocussions it could have on the common populace. I interjected that Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #2 might have to combat tomatoes influenced by the maevolent power of the Shadow Weave.
MarkusTay63 08-11-07, 01:40 AM	This is the final version, because I'm bored with it now, and I'm very happy with this. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/ComboCoverWDeathstar.jpg The city looks more like an enclave, and I threw in a couple more details and moved the figures closer together.
GothicDan 08-11-07, 01:43 AM	Hot!
msatran 08-11-07, 01:02 PM	Very Well, I am officially the High Seneschal of the Consideration for Retroactive Absence of the People of Shade! Our symbol, provided by Markus, shows that our favorite world has LITERALLY become a roll of the dice, as denoted by our mighty acronym... C.R.A.P.S. And let me tell you, we rolled a snake eyes on this one.
GothicDan 08-11-07, 01:09 PM	Awesome.
godbeepit 08-11-07, 01:52 PM	C.R.A.P.S.!!! I want to join C.R.A.P.S.!!!
MarkusTay63 08-11-07, 02:14 PM	I try to get out... but they keep pulling me back in... http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/NewEmblem.jpg New Coat of Arms. ;)
GothicDan 08-11-07, 03:29 PM	I need to change my sig!
msatran 08-11-07, 04:36 PM	Yeah, so do I....
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 06:52 PM	-Poor Simbul's eloquent post has degenerated to this...
MarkusTay63 08-11-07, 07:09 PM	Isn't haven't fun so much better then casting negative aspirations upon one of the most eagerly anticipated FR books of all time? ;)
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 07:26 PM	-Oh, why not?
msatran 08-12-07, 01:05 AM	I say we let anyone in who wants to join.
Alurvelve 08-12-07, 01:50 AM	What a suprise yet another thread that should be closed for trolling and flameing.
msatran 08-12-07, 03:38 AM	What a surprise. Alurvelve is being incredibly rude. You know, it's people like this that get banned from boards and then wonder why their privelages were removed.
Alurvelve 08-12-07, 04:49 AM	I am being rude by stating a fact? You do know what trolling is and a flame right?
Panurg 08-12-07, 10:09 AM	Great work Markus! I love your sense for wild nature scenarios. ;) And you made me laugh for at least 2 minutes.
msatran 08-12-07, 11:23 AM	Uh, Alurvelve, there's a big difference between trolling and flaming, and satire. Sarcasm and satire are time honored literary traditions. You should really rethink that statement. The fact that there are a lot of people who are willing to agree with us that Shade is "Basura" only proves the point that we're trying to make. You have to understand that a lot of us aren't being curmudgeonly, it's that we understand where all of this stuff comes from, and we're not happy with it. Let me explain, once again, the origin of the Shadow Weave. It comes from Birthright. That's right. It's not from the Forgotten Realms. At all. It's something Richard Baker came up with to make Birthright unique and interesting. It doesn't belong in the Forgotten Realms at all, they just threw it in there because they'd lose the rights to the terminology. I really don't want something that's the red headed stepchild of a failed D+D campaign setting in my Forgotten Realms. It made sense in Birthright, sure, but it doesn't make sense here. It doesn't make sense thematically no matter what kind of mechanics you use to explain it, it creates INSANE theme debates over what's thematic and what's not, over what the Weave is and what it isn't, and as Ed Greenwood is fond of saying, that's NOT D+D. People have been willing to come very close to spilling blood over the Shadow Weave, and whether or not it's cool, no matter how inexplicable it is. Even I've fallen into the trap. I spent FOUR WEEKS telling GEV that because the Shadow Weave is currently in theme, that his organization in Silverymoon that he created couldn't exist, because Alustriel, as a Chosen of Mystra, would have them killed. This sparked the sort of violent debate that makes politicians slaver and media outlets drool. It was a nasty piece of work. That's not D+D either. I understand the need for moral grey areas. That's not the problem. The problem is that the mechanics don't support this as morally grey. No matter how you try to say "But I'm neutral" if I worship a deity of magic, and someone's trying to steal my deity's power, I don't CARE what the alignment of my god is, I'm GOING to kill you if you worship the theiving deity. Heck, if Velsharoon became the deity of magic, it would be even worse. He'd just say "All worshippers of Shar shall be turned into...hmm...let's pick Mohrgs." Don't think that this has ANYTHING to do with alignment. This is about the power of gods and the anger of their worshippers, plain and simple. The City of Shade turned a MINOR point of thematic contention (The Shadow King) into a COLOSSAL bloodthirsty debate, and came darn near close to turning me away from the Forgotten Realms forever, because Shadow Weave Magic doesn't actually function in the world it was designed for. So join C.R.A.P.S. Save our Game.
Alurvelve 08-12-07, 03:08 PM	What are you going on about. I never onced mentioned anything about the Shadow weave or anytihng like that. I said this should be closed for trolling and flameing because that's all this thread has been for the last 3 pages or so. Again you going on about some shadow weave has nothing to do with the OP.
MarkusTay63 08-12-07, 03:26 PM	I've made the analogy before - Raw Magic = a computer; you can do anything with it The Weave = Windows (and we even have a 1.0, 2.0, etc... with each Mystra). Basically, it makes casting spells easier by making a lot of the "operating System" invisible. Not as powerful as using Raw Magic, but it keeps the kiddies out of trouble (usually). Shadow Weave is Apple, plain and simple. It may even be older then the Weave, and better at certain things, but it lost its popularity way back when Wilhelm Von Gatesly, Weave Mage, stole the idea of wands from the Shadow Weave people. This simple interface device is what made the Shadow Weave popular, but with brilliant marketing Wilhelm was able to sway the consumers (other mages) to his side. High Magic: Elves still use DOS. They claim it's better, and stronger, then newer methods, but by digging into the 'guts' of the system you cause all sorts of fatal errors. The Dark Disaster was just their version of the Blue Screen of Death. Epic Magic: There are a rare few individuals who still know how to script proggies (write spells) in assembler, the primal language of magic. These great gurus can basically cause any sort of effect they want, but it requires a genius-level IQ to even comprehend the forces your dealing with. Although this language is related to the primal music, the true language (binary); it is just a pale reflection of the Sublime Chord, yet still immensely powerful. Orc Shaman are still trying to cast spells with their Amigas. :P Now that Lolth has created the World Wide Web, we're all in trouble. It can run on any other platform, but the interference it causes with scrying spells is atrocious! Why just the other day I was trying to find a piece of information in my crystal ball, and I saw an add for a highly specialized 'growth' spell, and someone wanted to refinance my castle! The Drow porn wasn't half bad though..... ;)
Karsus the Mad 08-12-07, 03:55 PM	Markus, you're making me pee...I'm laughing my skinny lil' white butt off... Sooooooo...what's heavy magic in your analogies? :)
MarkusTay63 08-12-07, 04:12 PM	Thats simple, its that gloppy-looking thing that was once your CPU, after you tried to overclock it too high... *I actually have one of those - NEVER tinker with your BIOS at 4AM when your half-asleep.... :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 12:04 AM	-Nice analogies there, MT. Though, shouldn't Elven High Magic and Epic Magic be the same? ;) What a suprise yet another thread that should be closed for trolling and flameing. -Great work perpetuating more trolling! :thumbsup:
MarkusTay63 08-13-07, 12:20 AM	-Nice analogies there, MT. Though, shouldn't Elven High Magic and Epic Magic be the same? ;)Ahhhh... DOS was origianally written in assembler, so thats makes Wilhelm Von Gatesly one of those Uber-genius Archmages. :P So you see, DOS (Elven High-magic) was the first attempt at an all-inclusive system of spell-casting, written in the primal language of epic casters (assembler). It worked fine for years (millenia?), until something better and simpler came along. But yeah, the two are closely related - even in my analogy. ;) If you think the Orcs have it bad, the Kobolds have an old Atari 6000.... :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 01:07 AM	-Ah, I just got that "highly specialized Growth spell" joke. :) -Anyway, Elven High Magic is Epic Magic, albeit a specific casting tradition. They should both be either DOS or "assembler", then.
MarkusTay63 08-13-07, 01:17 AM	Fine, whatever... then DOS is the old tradition of Dwarven Runecasting - Dwarven Over-Sorcery I still don't think High Magic and Epic Magic could possibly be the same thing, when Epic Magic usually works correctly and High Magic ALWAYS goes wrong. Maybe they are the same, and the Elves aren't as good at the whole 'magic-thang' as they think they are. ;)
Alurvelve 08-13-07, 02:23 AM	-Great work perpetuating more trolling! :thumbsup:[/QUOTE] I figured you'd like that. On a more serious note (and back on subject) If I got to choose who was on the Cover of this book I would have to say Blackstaff. Have it in a way be a memorial for him, or a tribute if you will. He was actually one of my favorites out of the Chosen :(
GothicDan 08-13-07, 02:24 AM	I am being rude by stating a fact? You do know what trolling is and a flame right? Off the top of my head... Trolling: Making blatantly abrasive replies, often with little thought or compassion for social niceties, simply to try to actively antagonize other posters, usually annoyingly keeping threads 'alive' when they should be 'dead.' Considering WE all AGREED with this thread's original intent, as posted by the Simbul, YOU were the only one making replies that actually added nothing to the discussion, instead insulting others, flaunting your inability to see past your weird personal Albatrosses, and repeatedly using terminology wrong. This would make you the most likely candidate for a troll. Flaming: Unlike trolling, flaming lacks a certain idiosyncratic perseverance. It's a dog that just bites you, with rabies, rather than an annoying chihuahua gnawing for hours on your ankles. I guess since you've insulted our intelligence, opinions, and integrity (repeatedly accusing of his 'crimes' despite said crimes having no actual basis in what we did) multiple times, you're just being a Troll at the moment, and not a Flamer.
Alurvelve 08-13-07, 03:00 AM	See the post above? That's me contributeing to the OP, not going off about some other strange things that by all means should have thier own thread. This last page alone is about magic and not the cover of a book. And do be so kind as to tell me what my weird personal Albatrosses is. PS; Thnx for the food.
GothicDan 08-13-07, 03:18 AM	It doesn't really seem sincere (that is, your 'contribution') after it's followed by half a dozen trolling replies, and after you basically highlighted the irony of your trolling. This last page is about magic? No, not really. Only a little bit. It's more on the philosophical and literary ramifications (and boring I'm-whatever-you-are-but-shiner mentality so reminiscent of Anti-Paladins) behind the Shadow Weave and Shade. Msatran brought up the old anecdote flippantly, and we took off with it since there was little actual aggressive debate on the proper topic (only you were the one who vehemently, blindly, and insultingly refused to even analyze our opinions when we said we didn't like the cover). The small handful of others who agreed with you seemed only to do so out of a 'Oh well, it's done,' mentality. Except for Eli the Tanner, who at least tried to make a respectable argument as for Drizzt thematically being suited there. Even other fans of the character either agreed he wasn't suitable, or neutral at best, and were able to understand why we didn't think he should be on the cover - and many of them agreed with us. No matter one's personal likes or dislikes for a character in a vacuum, or in their story, that has little thematic reasoning (except the possibilities Eli brought up thus far) for making them suitable on the cover of ANY sourcebook, intrinsically. And that was your Albatross, too (it was a biter anger Albatross rather than a guilt one, though; an equally common, but less famous subspecies). You couldn't see that even though some of us don't LIKE Drizzt, that doesn't mean we were flaming him AS A CHARACTER. As I said, I like Kimil Nimesin a lot. And Jander Sunstar. But they wouldn't make particularly suitable characters to be the sole NPCS depicted on the cover of this book. Now, can you see that reasoning? It's like saying, "I like pickles, but not in my ears." The reason why one would LIKE pickles - the taste - has absolutely no bearing on why you should put them in your ears. It's insulting of you to accuse us of not being able to separate two such different venues (personal taste versus thematic appropriateness) when formulating our opinions. And if you truly think we do dislike the cover because it's Drizzt (there's a lot of things I like that I don't want in the Realms - like the Moonshaes, and I'm a huge Norse fanatic buff; I LOVE Elves but I do not like how they've changed in the Realms; I love Shar as a deity but hate Shade and the Shadow Weave), then you're basically making the contention that we are liars. So, regardless of what's been said by who in previous threads, you've done little to make any of us want to even acknowledge your opinions. It's been the equivalent of a toddler screaming for candy when his parents are trying to discuss dinner.
msatran 08-13-07, 03:52 AM	Yeah. I personally thought it brought some much needed humor to this otherwise very dour discussion. Obviously, many people found it funny, or we wouldn't have spent all this time talking about it. In any case, the Shadow Weave Tomato represents our fundamental discontent with the way things have been lately in the Realms, up to, and including the choice of Drizzt on the cover of this Book. I really did try to read against the text, but I decided that the short story on the inside had nothing to do with the chronicling on the outside, and these guys love nothing if not micromanaging page count. Those pages might have been better spent on other things.
GothicDan 08-13-07, 04:01 AM	Is it time to throw Shadow Tomatoes?
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 09:51 AM	In any case, the Shadow Weave Tomato represents our fundamental discontent with the way things have been lately in the Realms, up to, and including the choice of Drizzt on the cover of this Book. I really did try to read against the text, but I decided that the short story on the inside had nothing to do with the chronicling on the outside, and these guys love nothing if not micromanaging page count. Those pages might have been better spent on other things. -You know, I completely forgot that there is a Salvatore short story within the pages of AGHotR. Well, today did have the potential for being a good day. There goes that... -If there absolutely, had-to-be a short story included in the book, I would have liked a Volo short story, discussion some of the various places he's been, and thus, giving a quick overview of the information to come later in the book.
Stigger 08-13-07, 10:24 AM	Think I'd be happiest if they actually published more of the Volo's Guides really... can't think of any FR books I actually use more than those... though the old Aurora's Catalogue comes close. Need to get that on PDF for when my hardcopy disintegrates soon...
msatran 08-13-07, 12:07 PM	You can still get the volos guides (Some of them) and the Auroras catalog on Ebay. I have two of each. Those were the best sourcebooks ever.
Alurvelve 08-13-07, 12:36 PM	As for my post being sincere or not imo Blackstaff>than El, or any of the 7(6) Sisters, although I would like to spend my time with some of them. Blackstaff gave himself to aid in the cause he beleived in. The is no greater sacrafice than that. As for the shadow weave tbh I've never read up on it. Just took it as the dark side of the force etc, but since I am going to be running the new adventures wotc has put out it looks like I need to read up on the shadow weave. And half a dozen is 6. I only posted what could be sondiered a troll twice.
msatran 08-13-07, 01:20 PM	The problem is that the text doesn't match the theme. :) You'll see it as soon as you start reading up on it. Long live the Shadow Weave Tomato!
Stigger 08-13-07, 06:37 PM	Aleady have hard copies of all of the Volo's Guides, I just want more of them... :D Though on the issue of the Shadow Weave, I pretty much ignore its existance entirely... just doesn't sit well with me. As to Khelben sacrificing himself... what exactly would you classify Sylune's sacrifice to save her beloved Shadowdale as? I would think that would push her right up there with Khelben in your book...
Alurvelve 08-13-07, 07:20 PM	Yeah but she's been a ghost for some time, though I do agree her sacrafice was/is on the same level imo. So I take it a lot of people do not like the shadow weave? Is it the way it is writen up or what?