Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 10-06-07, 08:54 AM	You know, I never entirely took Cyric seriously. I think part of it had to do with the way we ran the Avatar Trilogy. Cyric was our character's sidekick. He was this annoying Rogue who betrayed us in the end and got the unwarranted Crowns of Three Gods. The actual canon Cyric isn't much better in his origins. Then were the numerous set backs and defeats of Cyric. Fzoul's Revolt, Losing the Portfolio of Myrkul, going insane, and smashing up his own church pretty damn good. It doesn't help that his Chosen is Malik. I'm not sure I can take him lightly anymore. * Spellplague * Mystra's death * Helm's destruction * The death of Salvas * Azuth and Velsharoon down for the count Hell, arguably he's reshuffled the entire universe of Abber-Toril just like Vecna did. Kinda earns him his place in the Annals of Darkness doesn't it?
selunatic2397 10-06-07, 09:34 PM	With Bane back I have no need for Cyric...I'll drop him to just the demigod of murder and have Borem [the big mud bog, and god of anger] hunt him for killing Bhaal before he could get his revenge. :D
Charles Phipps 10-06-07, 09:55 PM	I guess I've always been doing wrong. Bane is the Lord of Tyrants and the Darth Vader/Sauron of the setting. Cyric is the Lord of Intrigue. He's Grima Wormtongue. The problem is that the Church of Cyric is never portrayed as particularly subtle. Another dagger in the back, an extra turn upon the rack, and countless lies. Cyric's portfolio is perfect for Emperor Palpatine style characters. Yet, it's treated as a place of misfits.
Keahi19 10-15-07, 02:51 PM	Yeah I want Bane to execute Cyric. That'd make my day.
Urlithani 10-15-07, 03:50 PM	2E was about Cyric. 3E was Shar, the return of Bane, etc. 4E Talos and the other Gods of Fury, Shar, Bane. Whatever, just minus Cyric. He needs a lot of work to take seriously. You can take the other evil deities pretty seriously, but Cyric...it's like they're trying to make him the Joker from DC Comics; crazy, utterly sadistic, and actually dangerous. It's just not working at all.
Crazygx34 10-15-07, 04:29 PM	I think the problem is with is name. Just say I workship Cyric the god. That really not sound as good as Bane or Mystra or Ao (alpha Omega3) . But Cyric can rejoy I think Kelemvor is the worst name for a god compare to Myrkul and Bhaal. Bhaal it really hard to beat. Maybe they should call them Kain and Undertaker..:)
Dark Wizard 10-15-07, 05:55 PM	Cyric got the results as someone like Vecna, but with no where the proper build-up. There is a major disconnect with what Cyric did and how capable he was portrayed doing so. I think that's the main problem, he is too often shown as an annoying incompetent twerp (that's the perception I and every FR player I've met has of him) but his plots work out like he's owns the setting (or the designers owe him money). There is a bit more there than luck or happenstance can reasonably account for. He's like if Jar Jar Binks suddenly revealed himself as "Darth Ultimus" at the end of Episode III and Palpatine was only his apprentice yet he still acted like regular old Jar Jar. It simply doesn't work.
Inexorable 10-15-07, 06:49 PM	Well the build up is working just fine for me. I've never understood most others view on Cyric. I think he is one of the most successful evil deities ever in Faerun. I've never seen him as so many describe him: incompetent, twerp, jar jar binks, lame, etc. But I think no matter what is done with him he will always be hated for some strange reason... maybe because he is successful and all the other older evil deities have had limited, if any, success at all. I like the comparison to the Joker, another favorite character of mine, and agree that the two are similar. Personally, I find him to be one of the most interesting characters/entities in Faerun and one of my favorites. So, I'm glad to see him continue on his path of Toril domination, heh and hope to read more about his conquests.
Esnapand 10-15-07, 07:24 PM	Personally, I think in the current Realms Cyric is the only evil deity deserving the descriptor "evil". I mean, what are the other evil deities doing in comparison? Seems they are out for a nice afternoon making patchwork blankets. Of course, Cyric's some kind of new to the whole god-thing and maybe he's a bit over-confident but still he uses his portfolio to its full extent and I'm still waiting for the huge holocaust mentioned in the campaign setting. And... after his ascension to godhood one of the first things he did was vowing to overthrow Ao at some point. His past suggest that his ultimate goal is to be superior to everyone. And he's steadily working towards his goal.
Charles Phipps 10-15-07, 07:32 PM	In the end, I use Cyric as written but I actually refer to him as "Lo'Ki" (the Giant name for him) half-the time and that's about the only way the player characters can take him as seriously as I want them too. I confess, I'm one of the biggest Cyric supporters there is but there's something about his name and portrayal in novels that hurts him. Then again, I honestly believe Malak is the greatest Chosen ever (and pretend he's a 20th level Rogue)
Dark Wizard 10-15-07, 07:45 PM	I have nothing against a competent and genuinely frightening evil deity, but Cyric is portrayed in various ways according to various authors. I think it would be nice if Cyric had the same menacing feel of Joker, but in my mind (and to many others it seems) he just doesn't have that going for him. He needs a make over like the Joker got in the 80s and 90s. Maybe after his 1000 year house arrest (however long that lasts :rolleyes:) he will emerge with that creepy evil insane genius vibe.
Charles Phipps 10-15-07, 07:51 PM	Well Cyric has had 2 books devoted to his "evilness" 1. Where he's utterly defeated due to utterly gross divine largesse, including sacking his own keep. 2. The entire book is spent destroying his own faithful. It doesn't help his Chosen is Malik, a great character but a human one.
Dark Wizard 10-15-07, 07:53 PM	So another instance of novels creating a bad image for a setting element? :P
Charles Phipps 10-15-07, 07:55 PM	The novels were enjoyable as Hell. They rank up there with my favorites in the Realms. It's just they portray Cyric as not exactly menacing.
Inexorable 10-15-07, 08:21 PM	Like I mentioned, I guess I missed out on the way he was portrayed in the novels because I thought it was fine and raised my opinion of him more than lowered it. Didn't he defy Ao at one point? What other god has ever done that? Yea he lost some portfolios but he gained one from mask and also broke up the romance between kelemvor and mystra. Am I missing something? Maybe I need to go back and read all five novels again and see if I'm missing something.
Vasyek 10-15-07, 08:41 PM	1. Where he's utterly defeated due to utterly gross divine largesse, including sacking his own keep. He does have some residue of shrewdness in that book, however; immediately seeing through Mask's ruse in the brief re-imprisonment of Kezef and death of Lord Chess, his anticipation of the True-Life collaboration and countermeasures against it that would have been sufficient if not for Mask's possession of Fzoul, and the spin he put on Leira's demise to get her following to aid in his hunt for Kelemvor's soul, for instance. The main problem with those instances, I think, is that they tend to be brief and thus easily overshadowed by his far more frequent episodes of rank bluster and uninspired snark (Tormites? Tempus Slowhammer? Now that's gotta hurt), and/or, particularly in the last example, vague to the point of complete handwaving. Then there's the Cyrinishad itself, which was the badass god enslaving artifact it was basically by mistake. That little glitch notwithstanding, I'd say his posturing again undermines the sort of anathema it could have come off as; if it had been first and foremost a treatise repudiating all that is noble and trustworthy in humanity while vaunting all the brutal, conniving, and exploitative excesses of which it is capable, with a peripheral (or altogether hidden in symbols and subtexts) emphasis upon him as the paragon of such, it might not have turned out as quite the tasteless (if ensorceled) publicity rag that it is. I think this general pattern accounts for a fair bit of why we see such frequent and adamant dismissals of his intellect/abilities; really, he's up there as one of my favorite evil gods in FR and even so that crap bugs me. You get mooks like Bane and Bhaal who screw up every bit as pathetically if not more, but even so they tend to carry themselves with a dignity that the Cyric we see in PoL and Crucible seems to want no part of. Didn't he defy Ao at one point? What other god has ever done that? Bane, with less than stellar results, but still... Maybe I need to go back and read all five novels again and see if I'm missing something. I think it's more a matter of emphasis than anything. For my part, I can see where the people who think he's just a blithering ass are coming from, but in novels and source alike I think there's plenty to counter that impression.
Dark Wizard 10-15-07, 09:22 PM	The novels were enjoyable as Hell. They rank up there with my favorites in the Realms. It's just they portray Cyric as not exactly menacing. A novel that disrupts the atmosphere of the game setting can still be a good novel. In fact, one would hope it is at least a good novel.
BadCatMan 10-15-07, 10:53 PM	Cyric's that Chaotic Stupid Evil rogue who always shirks his duties, steals from the party, screws up their plans, stabs them in the back, and still manages to get way with it and ultimate power too because he's the DM's favourite.
Crazygx34 10-15-07, 11:08 PM	I just finish The prince of lies this week and don't have read the Trial of Cyric the mad but I have read the avatar trilogie. Then the only time when I finded Cyric cool it when he get ripped of magic by mystra. First he getthe look he deserve like pale white and no good in is face and his hard battle against his personality making get like a jelly. That my vision of him. And his buying of antimagic armor from gond the best thing he ever made, he was on the way of ruling the Zenthil keep but his ambition make him lost the city what a fool. The best thing about him it the easy way he can lie. And the only time I was on his side in the avatar trilogy it when he join the Zenthil division. He manage the take the control of it and became a close commandant of the Bane army. And I think Cyric it really stupid in the Evil way or he his good. Yes he kill people easily and killer are evil. But he his is own biggest ennemy. Just at the end of Prince of Lies he was pleased of it lost of the city of dead. He say it was his plan. It why I say he may be not so evil and testing the other god power and act like he provoke anyone his own workshipper, everyone at all are his ennemy. mystra when she read his mind that what she see emptyness. Well he just act like me if I was the ruling emperor of an evil society and I was the evil emblem. I will act so foolishness than every buddy will attack me or hate than the evil where be destroy. That exactly what he done and it why I think Cyric it not evil at all he just a coward who want to be alone in the universe. He cannot take pression and don't see that is role as god is controled by the balance.
Inexorable 10-16-07, 04:18 PM	Bane, with less than stellar results, but still... You're right, the limp wristed black hand did by stealing the tablets of fate, but then didn't Ao crush them at the end of the avatar trilogy pretty much symbolizing they were meaningless? How defiant are you when you steal something that is completely meaningless to the one you stole them from? If I remember correctly, Cyric defied Ao in the presence of the other gods and even Ao was confused by this or at least much more unsure than he normally is. Again, its been years since I read them so I may not be remembering them correctly. Kind of funny too if you think about it, if there is a modicum of fact in my memory of the events... bane is supposed to be this in your face..."fear me, I am the great tyrant" and yet he sneaks in and pilfers the tablets of fate like a fearful rogue. While Cyric is the cowardly twerp according to most that everyone craps on but he openly defies Ao not only to his face but in front of a host of other gods as well. As I said, I really don't understand the hate towards Cyric as he is by far one of the most if not the most interesting characters in the realms in my opinion.
Vasyek 10-16-07, 04:35 PM	How defiant are you when you steal something that is completely meaningless to the one you stole them from? Still pretty defiant. Woefully, hilariously misinformed? Yeah. But it's the thought that counts and it's the thought Ao punished. If I remember correctly, Cyric defied Ao in the presence of the other gods and even Ao was confused by this or at least much more unsure than he normally is. Yeah, he temporarily dimmed the stars of Ao in the beginning of Crucible, and Bane was the only god in the beginning of Shadowdale who did not kneel fully before Ao. I'd imagine that there's more audacity to the former, but frankly I think both examples were rather stupid and vain of them, regardless of the power or will demonstrated in the process. bane is supposed to be this in your face..."fear me, I am the great tyrant" and yet he sneaks in and pilfers the tablets of fate like a fearful rogue. Frankly I'm more amused by the fact that he's supposed to be this grand, looming Dark Overlord (tm) and yet he played the patsy to Myrkul every step of the way through the avatar crisis.
Charles Phipps 10-16-07, 04:40 PM	I feel more for Bhaal. That guy gets to play Patsy to a Patsy. I still salute Bhaal's plan in the original Moonshaes Trilogy. That worked out horribly for him but he gave it his all.
Inexorable 10-16-07, 05:13 PM	Still pretty defiant. Woefully, hilariously misinformed? Yeah. But it's the thought that counts and it's the thought Ao punished. I suppose its defiant but wouldn't you expect the big dark overlord to do something a little more imposing or in your face? Yeah, he temporarily dimmed the stars of Ao in the beginning of Crucible, and Bane was the only god in the beginning of Shadowdale who did not kneel fully before Ao. I'd imagine that there's more audacity to the former, but frankly I think both examples were rather stupid and vain of them, regardless of the power or will demonstrated in the process. I didn't remember that part about bane and yea it could be considered vanity but they're evil deities so demonstrations of power and will and vanity I always figured went hand in hand. Frankly I'm more amused by the fact that he's supposed to be this grand, looming Dark Overlord (tm) and yet he played the patsy to Myrkul every step of the way through the avatar crisis. Like I said, I need to order those books and read them over again as I don't recall that part about Myrkul. I actually liked Myrkul. Thanks for the info.
Derenger999 10-16-07, 07:23 PM	You know, I never entirely took Cyric seriously. I think part of it had to do with the way we ran the Avatar Trilogy. Cyric was our character's sidekick. He was this annoying Rogue who betrayed us in the end and got the unwarranted Crowns of Three Gods. The actual canon Cyric isn't much better in his origins. Then were the numerous set backs and defeats of Cyric. Fzoul's Revolt, Losing the Portfolio of Myrkul, going insane, and smashing up his own church pretty damn good. It doesn't help that his Chosen is Malik. I'm not sure I can take him lightly anymore. * Spellplague * Mystra's death * Helm's destruction * The death of Salvas * Azuth and Velsharoon down for the count Hell, arguably he's reshuffled the entire universe of Abber-Toril just like Vecna did. Kinda earns him his place in the Annals of Darkness doesn't it? When did he do all this? Did I miss something?
Charles Phipps 10-16-07, 07:29 PM	Guide to the History of the Realms
Derenger999 10-16-07, 07:34 PM	Guide to the History of the Realms Not it's official, not buying 4e stuff....ever. I know Grand History is 3.5 but they are just trying to mess with the Realms for 4e. Wizards, you just lost THE MOST loyal fan of the Forgotten Realms. Thanks a bunch.
Charles Phipps 10-16-07, 08:27 PM	You know, I honestly don't understand what the big deal is.
Lykor 10-16-07, 09:42 PM	Cyric is useless. While his character concept (that of a malicious troublemaker ala Loki) is cool, the actual execution is horrid. Rather than come off as a manipulator, deceiver, and general scourge apon the Realms, he comes off as an emo pansy. They need to get rid of him completely, and bring in someone else who is significantly less useless. I don't mean Bane (who is almost cool, but not as much so as Xvim) or Myrkul (putz) or Bhaal (loser) but someone actually interesting. Plus, having him for general fall guy is getting REALLY old. On a related note, Price of Lies/Trial of Cyric are some of the worst novels I have ever read. Not so much the overall concept (God war, evil artifact, really wierd Chosen), but for the ending and the fact that it's basically a god-oriented soap opera. Next on The Plane Turns: Will Mystra take Cyric back? Will Kelemvor shoot JR? Watch and find out! The ending of those 2 novels actually make my top 5 endings of all time, right up there with Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes, the D&D movie, Neverwinter Nights 2 (Rocks fall, everyone dies) and ending Farscape on a cliffhanger. Going from "war between gods" to "oh, i'm sorry lets hug and make up while I change alignments" is lame.
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 12:39 AM	Cyric's that Chaotic Stupid Evil rogue who always shirks his duties, steals from the party, screws up their plans, stabs them in the back, and still manages to get way with it and ultimate power too because he's the DM's favourite. This pretty much has always been my veiw of him. Hence I coined the phrase GDPC( Game Designer Player character) to describe what he is now. Atleast I think I came up with it first...
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 02:01 AM	I confess, I find the biggest saving grace of 4E that Cyric is getting re-evaluated by many. Maybe, like Bane, he'll be treated better in retrospect than he ever was normally.
SgtAnjay 10-17-07, 03:12 AM	Because he weilds the mighty power of script immunity?
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 10:25 AM	Only in D&D could two Greater Gods defeat another by teaming up and get accused of script immunity.
Alediran 10-17-07, 10:32 AM	It's true when both gods have being used too often as BBEG and they always get their way even when they are on the home plane of the most powerfull goddess where she can send them to oblivion with a thought.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 10:39 AM	You think....Shar.... The most ancient evil of Toril. Could be sent to Oblivion with a thought by Mystra? :uh-huh: And when did Cyric and Shar always get their way? Usually they end up losing.
Alediran 10-17-07, 10:48 AM	Shar almost never looses, if you read every single novel where she appears she always wins one way or the other. Mystra only needs to cast a Banishment spell at an infinite DC (she can do that with an epic spell) to send Shar and Cyric to their planes.
buzzard 10-17-07, 11:16 AM	Too bad that Mystra can't cast epic spells :P (and even if she could, how is she able to get an infinite DC??? and EVEN if she could to that, any deity of rank 6 or higher is immune to effects that imprison or banish them). Besides, Mystra is the biggest Mary Sue on the whole realms. As I said before, Shar and Cyric shouldn't be able to defeat Mystra on her home plane but neither Mystra should be able to defeat Asmodeus on his home plane and she did, so now it's payback time :D.
Alediran 10-17-07, 11:30 AM	Besides, Mystra is the biggest Mary Sue on the whole realms. As I said before, Shar and Cyric shouldn't be able to defeat Mystra on her home plane but neither Mystra should be able to defeat Asmodeus on his home plane and she did, so now it's payback time :D. No, that title is owned by Cyric and Shar, Designer's favorite gods. Mystra didn't defeated Asmodeus, he only delayed him.
buzzard 10-17-07, 11:35 AM	No, that title is owned by Cyric and Shar, Designer's favorite gods. Mystra didn't defeated Asmodeus, he only delayed him. It doesn't matter at all if she delayed him, killed him, just damaged him or even if she gave him a kiss. She shouldn't be able to do any of those things whether she wanted to or not. In the nine hells Asmodeus reigns supreme like a God on his/her divine realm. And as for Shar and Cyric being the designer's favorite gods? maybe the most logical choices for killing Mystra. For designer's favorite god we should look at Mystra. I mean, her followers can get the Initiate of Mystra feat that allows them to cast in DEAD magic zones, where's the logic in that? The last time I checked there's no Weave on dead magic zones...
Alediran 10-17-07, 11:40 AM	It doesn't matter at all if she delayed him, killed him, just damaged him or even if she gave him a kiss. She shouldn't be able to do any of those things whether she wanted to or not. In the nine hells Asmodeus reigns supreme like a God on his/her divine realm. By that same logic, no matter how many gods attempted to kill Mystra on Dweomerhearth, she should be able to defeat them. Since that is not the case, then Shar and Cyric got a Script Immunity spell And as for Shar and Cyric being the designer's favorite gods? maybe the most logical choices for killing Mystra. For designer's favorite god we should look at Mystra. I mean, her followers can get the Initiate of Mystra feat that allows them to cast in DEAD magic zones, where's the logic in that? The last time I checked there's no Weave on dead magic zones... You can cast spells in a Dead magic Zone without that feat, you just need to beat a High DC Spellcraft check. And even those with that feat aren't still 100% effective all the time. The designers added that feat to balance the fact that the SW doesn't have DMZ. That feat was to balance the abuse of the SW against W casters on a DMZ.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 12:43 PM	It doesn't matter at all if she delayed him, killed him, just damaged him or even if she gave him a kiss. She shouldn't be able to do any of those things whether she wanted to or not. In the nine hells Asmodeus reigns supreme like a God on his/her divine realm. News flash, Player characters could go into Asmodeus' realm and if they got past the 7,000,000,000 Demons down there then they could kill him. Divine Realms do not mean immunity to death.
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 03:27 PM	Only in D&D could two Greater Gods defeat another by teaming up and get accused of script immunity. Yup when Three greater gods went after on of them and only imprison that is script immunity. And we both know that imprisonment won't last. Also Shar wasn't actualy there....she just helped.
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 03:30 PM	It doesn't matter at all if she delayed him, killed him, just damaged him or even if she gave him a kiss. She shouldn't be able to do any of those things whether she wanted to or not. In the nine hells Asmodeus reigns supreme like a God on his/her divine realm. You are wrong Asmodeus is a Devil Prince there are a step below gods no matter where they are.
buzzard 10-17-07, 03:45 PM	News flash, Player characters could go into Asmodeus' realm and if they got past the 7,000,000,000 Demons down there then they could kill him. Divine Realms do not mean immunity to death. According to lore a god or god-like being is able to manipulate reality within his/her planar domain (and is for all intents and purposes invincible there since it will probably be plagued with magical countermeasures to any attack). That means that he or she could "disappear" any opposition on his home plane. By that same logic, no matter how many gods attempted to kill Mystra on Dweomerhearth, she should be able to defeat them. Since that is not the case, then Shar and Cyric got a Script Immunity spell I quote myself now: "As I said before, Shar and Cyric shouldn't be able to defeat Mystra on her home plane but neither Mystra should be able to defeat Asmodeus on his home plane and she did" Basically she's now victim of something that she started herself. If Mystra can bend the rules, so can the rest of the gods. You can cast spells in a Dead magic Zone without that feat, you just need to beat a High DC Spellcraft check. And even those with that feat aren't still 100% effective all the time. The designers added that feat to balance the fact that the SW doesn't have DMZ. That feat was to balance the abuse of the SW against W casters on a DMZ. Nobody can cast spells in a dead magic zone (it's called DEAD for a reason...), the Initiate of Mystra gives the chance to cast spells on such areas (DC 20 + spell level which eventually every caster can make...) but as with anything Mystra it contradicts previous established lore in that there's no Weave in a dead magic zone and there shouldn't be any chance to cast a spell there feat or no feat. On the other side, the chance to defeat an anti-magic zone DOES make sense because the antimagic zone comes from a spell and it makes some sense to be able to counter such a spell by having the FAVOR of the goddess of magic but, the dead-magic zone thing should be a no-no. You are wrong Asmodeus is a Devil Prince there are a step below gods no matter where they are. Asmodeus has as much power as the strongest of deities in his home plane and that is backed by lore. For example he destroyed the Hag Countess, who resided in the sixth layer of the nine hells while he was on the ninth with merely a thought and he intended to do the same to Halaster until Mystra "I can break all the rules" came to his rescue.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 03:47 PM	According to lore a god or god-like being is able to manipulate reality within his/her planar domain (and is for all intents and purposes invincible there since it will probably be plagued with magical countermeasures to any attack). That means that he or she could "disappear" any opposition on his home plane. And that doesn't reflect canon. Nor should it. Finder killed Moander after he was weakened. That was on his home plane of the Abyss.
msatran 10-17-07, 03:54 PM	The fact that Tyr doesn't kill Cyric only reinforces my belief that the current design team is completely incompetent. How is it just that half the world is !*****!Ing destroyed and this bonehead gets to languish in divine prison? All this really is, is a conservative backlash against the real world revolving door prison system. Tyr should just kill Cyric and be done with it. What possible good story could you tell about Cyric at this point? What would the POINT be of it? The Realms is already ruined. Richard Baker Must Be Stopped!
buzzard 10-17-07, 03:57 PM	And that doesn't reflect canon. Nor should it. Finder killed Moander after he was weakened. That was on his home plane of the Abyss. I don't remember Finder's story very well but wasn't he sponsored by another deity?. Plus Moander wasn't a greater deity, the weaker the deity, the less control it has over his/her plane and his/her portfolio sense/remote sensing. A Greater Deity has absolute control over his/her planar domain and is able to perceive the smallest of events pertaining his/her portfolio, so Shar and Cyric shouldn't be able to kill Mystra (and if we add the rules to the lore, Mystra can block teleportation or portals to her home plane, so Shar and Cyric shouldn't even be able to enter Dweomerheart if Mystra wished so) but as I said many times before, Mystra is the main offender to both lore and mechanics so I think it's fair that in the end she suffers because of others doing what she did before, it makes her death ironic...
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 04:01 PM	Asmodeus has as much power as the strongest of deities in his home plane and that is backed by lore. For example he destroyed the Hag Countess, who resided in the sixth layer of the nine hells while he was on the ninth with merely a thought and he intended to do the same to Halaster until Mystra "I can break all the rules" came to his rescue. The Hag Countess his one of his minions...Halaster and Mystra isn't. His dominion of the nine hells doesn't have any effect on gods that dwell their.
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 04:04 PM	Basically she's now victim of something that she started herself. If Mystra can bend the rules, so can the rest of the gods. Also you are wrong a bad writer who ignored the lore broke the rules. Mystra is at the whims of anybody writing her. So you supporting a wrong because someone author didn't know his lore?
buzzard 10-17-07, 04:11 PM	The Hag Countess his one of his minions...Halaster and Mystra isn't. His dominion of the nine hells doesn't have any effect on gods that dwell their. Asmodeus was going to kill Halaster in "Elminster in hell" by just moving his finger so it doesn't matter if who he wants to destroy is a minion of his or not, he just has total control over the plane, as simple as that, he even mocked Mystra's efforts. In fact by lore any conflict between deities and devils on the nine hells was a victory for the devils. Also you are wrong a bad writer who ignored the lore broke the rules. Mystra is at the whims of anybody writing her. So you supporting a wrong because someone author didn't know his lore? So it's okay when Mystra (or her writer) ignores previous lore but if the same thing is done for Cyric and Shar then it's wrong and the one/ones who incorporated that idea are the worst authors ever huh?... I think that's called double-standards. And the "bad writer" (as you say) is Ed Greenwood.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 04:12 PM	Also you are wrong a bad writer who ignored the lore broke the rules. Mystra is at the whims of anybody writing her. So you supporting a wrong because someone author didn't know his lore? Why is it bad when the lore should reflect a good story? It's STUPID for deities to be immune in their own realms. Gods can and do die in the Realms and they can only do that in their home realms. :rolls eyes: Seriously, the gods aren't immortal. They bleed and die all the time in the Realms.
Alediran 10-17-07, 04:18 PM	Why is it bad when the lore should reflect a good story? It's STUPID for deities to be immune in their own realms. Gods can and do die in the Realms and they can only do that in their home realms. :rolls eyes: Seriously, the gods aren't immortal. They bleed and die all the time in the Realms. It's the same thing that trying to fight a Wizard in his own tower. The wizard had ample time to prepare for every single possible contingency on the place he lived. The same applies to gods on their realm, except that in the case of Mystra, she could simply block all teleportation and portals to Dweomerheart except from those she specifically allow. Therefore impeding anybody who she doesn't want to enter her plane. That is what we refer to deity immunity on it's own realm. If this didn't existed then only the greater gods could be safe against the threat of most gods, intermediate and lesser ones would be killed all the time. Is that a good way to tell a story? BTW Shar began with the rules offensives in Temptation of Elminster. Some of her cultist captured an avatar of Mystra, so they where able to cast arcane spells, even when they hadn't levels in arcane classes.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 04:23 PM	That is what we refer to deity immunity on it's own realm. If this didn't existed then only the greater gods could be safe against the threat of most gods, intermediate and lesser ones would be killed all the time. Is that a good way to tell a story? Except, that's my point. Cyric is the god of Intrigue, Shar is the Goddess of Secrets. It might take them a very long time but they're able to get around almost any defense you could imagine Mystra doing so. Besides, if Cyric needs access to the Weave, he can use the Shadow Weave to do it. Mystra can't block anything he chooses to do with that.
Inexorable 10-17-07, 04:26 PM	I don't know if this plays a factor in Cyric killing mystra but at the end of the avatar trilogy, if I remember correctly, didn't he remember that midnight gave him her true name? I remember something along the lines of midnight telling Cyric that she was going to make him pay for what he had done and at first he was taken aback but then he remembered learning her true name and wondered what powers that would grant him. Not saying this had anything to do with Cyric murdering her on her home plane but you never know. I still find it amusing how abused Cyric gets on these boards when he has been one of the most competent and successful evil deities. The whole mystra/Asmodeus thing kind of irked me as well to be honest. I never read the novel but when I heard about it I thought it was kind of wrong. As far as being a mary sue... well I have to agree that mystra and the chosen pretty much are for the forgotten realms, especially elminster... but I guess he would be a larry stu according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_sue Also, the reason why they only imprisoned Cyric and didn't kill him is maybe they couldn't find him? He is the god of illusions, deception, and lies as well was murder, strife, and intrigue. Who would be harder to find than a greater god of such things? So instead of trying to find him they just sealed his home plane.
buzzard 10-17-07, 04:30 PM	It's the same thing that trying to fight a Wizard in his own tower. The wizard had ample time to prepare for every single possible contingency on the place he lived. In the case of the wizard those contingencies can be dispelled or the invader can have protection against them. The difference with deities is that they can alter reality in their home plane making them practically immune. The same applies to gods on their realm, except that in the case of Mystra, she could simply block all teleportation and portals to Dweomerheart except from those she specifically allow. Therefore impeding anybody who she doesn't want to enter her plane. Mystra isn't the only one able to block teleportation and portals on her home plane, any deity of rank 6 or higher can do the same to their own divine realm. BTW Shar began with the rules offensives in Temptation of Elminster. Some of her cultist captured an avatar of Mystra, so they where able to cast arcane spells, even when they hadn't levels in arcane classes. That's not breaking a rule or lore, that's a story-telling resource. In the novels for example we have the case of the creation of a portal to the nine hells when the weave and the shadow weave clashed. In the game we have the case of the Nether Scrolls giving arcane abilities even to non casters if they are able to read them. It would break the established cannon if previously an author said for example that by capturing an avatar of Mystra no one is able to gain the ability to cast arcane spells when he/she hadn't levels in arcane classess. It is breaking cannon when there's a feat that allows a caster to use spells on dead magic zones when that is impossible if we follow what was established or, when a deity defeats an archdevil on his home plane.
Alediran 10-17-07, 04:32 PM	Also, the reason why they only imprisoned Cyric and didn't kill him is maybe they couldn't find him? He is the god of illusions, deception, and lies as well was murder, strife, and intrigue. Who would be harder to find than a greater god of such things? So instead of trying to find him they just sealed his home plane. That's so illogical that my head rolled 360 degrees. If the gods imprisoned Cyric is because they had him on their hands. They can't imprison a good four planes away, they need to do it on the spot. That's not breaking a rule or lore, that's a story-telling resource -and one commonly used in the novels, like the creation of a portal to the nine hells when the weave and the shadow weave clashed or the Nether Scrolls giving arcane abilities even to non casters if they are able to read them. It would break the established cannon if previously an author said for example that by capturing an avatar of Mystra no one is able to gain the ability to cast arcane spells when he/she hadn't levels in arcane classess. Then why Shar clerics CAN cast arcane spells without having Arcane Spellcasting levels and Mystra CAN'T delay Asmodeous. After all both books were written by Ed. If you imply that Ed was doing something out of the rules in one book, then you have to accept that he did it in both, otherwise it would be applying a double-standard.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 04:37 PM	That's so illogical that my head rolled 360 degrees. If the gods imprisoned Cyric is because they had him on their hands. They can't imprison a good four planes away, they need to do it on the spot. I guess no gods wanted to risk their lives destroying Cyric forever. Seriously, they were probably pretty weak after the Godswar.
buzzard 10-17-07, 04:42 PM	Then why Shar clerics CAN cast arcane spells without having Arcane Spellcasting levels and Mystra CAN'T delay Asmodeous. After all both books were written by Ed. If you imply that Ed was doing something out of the rules in one book, then you have to accept that he did it in both, otherwise it would be applying a double-standard. Shar's clerics can't do that, that was specifically for that novel and that's it. That's why I said it was a story-telling resource (like the creation of a portal when the Weave and Shadow Weave clash which doesn't happen in-game). But let's suppose it has it's effects in-game. In that case, nothing previously stated that such a thing is impossible, if the designers say so then it's possible, maybe by capturing an avatar of Shar one could gain special hiding abilities or the secret best guarded in the realms. However, in the case of Asmodeus we knew from before that he's all-powerful on Baator. We also knew from before that in a dead magic zone there's no Weave, but the Initiate of Mystra contradicts that. In both those cases there was an established lore previously that was contradicted by Mystra "I can do anything" and that's the difference.
Alediran 10-17-07, 04:48 PM	However, in the case of Asmodeus we knew from before that he's all-powerful on Baator, and that's it. We also know that in a dead magic zone there's no Weave, but the Initiate of Mystra contradicts that. In both those cases there was an established lore previously and that's the difference. That would be because Elminster in Hell was written in 3ed where by RAW he isn't anything else than a big CR monster, while what you say was a fact during 2ed with the shared cosmology. The whole line of Initiate of X was meant to give clerics a deeper connection to their gods. In the case of Mystra, this meant that some form of direct connection to her, that allowed spellcasters to have a tiny connection to the Weave even when it isn't present. That is why you still need to make a Spellcraft check. At the time when that check becomes irrelevant, Wish/Miracle is already available to spellcasters in one way or the other and DMZ are only minor annoyances.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 04:48 PM	However, in the case of Asmodeus we knew from before that he's all-powerful on Baator, and that's it. We also know that in a dead magic zone there's no Weave, but the Initiate of Mystra contradicts that. In both those cases there was an established lore previously and that's the difference. Weird, cause the Elminster In Hell reviews *I* read were that Mystra was way underpowered by the fact she was unable to just walk up to Asmodeus and obliterate him with a thought. Similiarly, they complained that Gargauth should have no problem just slaughtering Asmoedus when he wants because he's a Demigod and Asmodeus is just a demon. Likewise, they wonder if Grazzt is dead because there's no way he could survive Waukeen's vengeance.
buzzard 10-17-07, 04:57 PM	That would be because Elminster in Hell was written in 3ed where by RAW he isn't anything else than a big CR monster, while what you say was a fact during 2ed with the shared cosmology. In Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells he's still a big CR monster yet he dispatched the Hag Countess with a thought. Elminster in Hell demonstrates that he has this ability as well since he intended to kill Halaster by moving his finger. This is evidence that even int 3rd edition he's all powerful in Baator. The whole line of Initiate of X was meant to give clerics a deeper connection to their gods. In the case of Mystra, this meant that some form of direct connection to her, that allowed spellcasters to have a tiny connection to the Weave even when it isn't present. That is why you still need to make a Spellcraft check. At the time when that check becomes irrelevant, Wish/Miracle is already available to spellcasters in one way or the other and DMZ are only minor annoyances. If you want to repair a DMZ with Wish/Miracle you do it from OUTSIDE the DMZ or else it fails (because YES, there's no magic from inside!!!!). Spellfire/Silverfire (don't remember which one maybe even both) is/are able to repair it from the inside because it's not Weave magic, it's RAW magic (the first depends on the second, it makes sense there). Initiate of Mystra does not make sense because it contradicts Wish/Miracle and more importantly a horse beaten a hundred times, there's NO magic AT ALL in a DMZ the only magics that can be used on a Weave dead magic zone are raw magic, shadow weave magic, pluma magic and any magic that's not WEAVE magic. I'm sorry but the Initiate of Mystra feat does not make sense at all. All the books from 1st edition to 3rd establish that the Weave is what allows casters to manipulate reality via magic and that in a DMZ there's no Weave. It doesn't take a genius to deduct that where there's no weave no spells can be casted
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 05:06 PM	In Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells he's still a big CR monster yet he dispatched the Hag Countess with a thought. Elminster in Hell demonstrates that he has this ability as well since he intended to kill Halaster by moving his finger. This is evidence that even int 3rd edition he's all powerful in Baator. Or he prepared something ahead of time.
Alediran 10-17-07, 05:15 PM	If you want to repair a DMZ with Wish/Miracle you do it from OUTSIDE the DMZ or else it fails (because YES, there's no magic from inside!!!!). Spellfire/Silverfire (don't remember which one maybe even both) is/are able to repair it from the inside because it's not Weave magic, it's RAW magic (the first depends on the second, it makes sense there). Initiate of Mystra does not make sense because it contradicts Wish/Miracle and more importantly a horse beaten a hundred times, there's NO magic AT ALL in a DMZ the only magics that can be used on a Weave dead magic zone are raw magic, shadow weave magic, pluma magic and any magic that's not WEAVE magic. I'm sorry but the Initiate of Mystra feat does not make sense at all. All the books from 1st edition to 3rd establish that the Weave is what allows casters to manipulate reality via magic and that in a DMZ there's no Weave. It doesn't take a genius to deduct that where there's no weave no spells can be casted It makes sense because in 3ed it was demonstrated that the Weave is not an absolute need to cast spells, you have psionics and Shadow Weave, two ways to cast spells that didn't required the Weave and that functioned on DMZ in the Weave. Initiate of Mystra was a way to balance that. And I will say that not even a good one, you need at least 3 levels of cleric, something that most arcane spellcasters would never bother to have and it's not 100% effective, unlike psionics and Shadow Weave.
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 05:19 PM	I guess no gods wanted to risk their lives destroying Cyric forever. Seriously, they were probably pretty weak after the Godswar. You know for someone who is a heavy advocate of the gods slaufgtering each other the way they do...and for someone who critizes fans alot for protesting bad things to their favorite character you seem very protective of Cyric.
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 05:27 PM	Asmodeus was going to kill Halaster in "Elminster in hell" by just moving his finger so it doesn't matter if who he wants to destroy is a minion of his or not, he just has total control over the plane, as simple as that, he even mocked Mystra's efforts. In fact by lore any conflict between deities and devils on the nine hells was a victory for the devils. Ah he killed the Hag by a thought but had to move a finger to kill Halaster. Seems it was easier to kill a being who is also near godhood that was his minion yet had to move the finger to kill a mortal. Also Halaster isn't a god...he is mortal and would be subject to the whims od Asmodeus without divine protection. Which he got. I am not saying it is easy for a god to waltz into hell but the fact remains Asmodeus is not a god( well not till 4th edition comes along) So it's okay when Mystra (or her writer) ignores previous lore but if the same thing is done for Cyric and Shar then it's wrong and the one/ones who incorporated that idea are the worst authors ever huh?... I think that's called double-standards. And the "bad writer" (as you say) is Ed Greenwood. Actualy no it is wrong in both cases...except for the fact that a deity is greater then Asmodeus even on his own planes. You have yet to come up with anything to disprove that. But so what if Ed makes a mistake with Planar lore. That should have been caught by the editor, the man isn't the master of all that is D&D.
Inexorable 10-17-07, 05:47 PM	That's so illogical that my head rolled 360 degrees. If the gods imprisoned Cyric is because they had him on their hands. They can't imprison a good four planes away, they need to do it on the spot. Why didn't they kill him then if they had him on the "spot"? There had to have been a reason as to why they imprisoned him instead of killing him, right? And on top of that question, why imprison him on his home plane? According to you, to imprison something you need to "do it on the spot". So they were on the Supreme Throne, Cyric's home and if they had killed him he would be dead forever, much like mystra, so why didn't they do it? The only reasons I can think of is he was too powerful for them or he was too elusive. Which one seems more likely? Cyric more powerful than the combined forces of Sune, Lathander, and Tyr Or Cyric cannot be found by the combined efforts of Sune, Lathander, and Tyr. Doesn't seem too illogical to me. It could be either really. Unless something is introduced later on, some unknown factor, but really, even I, a proponent of the Black Sun, would be quite disappointed if the reason given as to why he was imprisoned instead of killed is hokey.
Vasyek 10-17-07, 06:13 PM	You know for someone who is a heavy advocate of the gods slaufgtering each other the way they do...and for someone who critizes fans alot for protesting bad things to their favorite character you seem very protective of Cyric. Far be it for me to put words in Phipp's mouth, but given that he presented a scenario involving the return of Bhaal and the death of Cyric on the magic & deities boards not all that long ago, I don't think he'd be too torn up if Cyric had been annihilated. If the gods imprisoned Cyric is because they had him on their hands. They can't imprison a good four planes away, they need to do it on the spot. Not necessarily, given a collaboration between three greater gods and who knows how many lesser/intermediates they didn't deign to mention as back-up. Assemblies like that tend to be able to break the conventional rules that dictate what gods are/aren't capable of. The only reasons I can think of is he was too powerful for them or he was too elusive. Which one seems more likely? They may have been fully capable of destroying him and fully capable of finding him but chose not to on the basis of other circumstances such as the ensuing spellplague, one of the key players in Mystra's demise still being at large, and the need to stave off the prospective advances the evil gods who weren't involved, whether passive or active in nature. It'd wouldn't do them a whole lot of good to get rid of Cyric if it meant passing his portfolios on to the likes of Shar, Bane, or Talos, for instance, and I don't really see Tyr, Sune, or Lathander being willing or even able to assume his portfolios themselves. Another consideration could be that it's in their interest to have Cyric and the very gods most likely to profit from his demise exhaust or at least occupy themselves for an extended period of time as they try to exploit his house-arrest and he struggles to maintain his power-base.
Inexorable 10-17-07, 06:43 PM	They may have been fully capable of destroying him and fully capable of finding him but chose not to on the basis of other circumstances such as the ensuing spellplague, one of the key players in Mystra's demise still being at large, and the need to stave off the prospective advances the evil gods who weren't involved, whether passive or active in nature. It'd wouldn't do them a whole lot of good to get rid of Cyric if it meant passing his portfolios on to the likes of Shar, Bane, or Talos, for instance, and I don't really see Tyr, Sune, or Lathander being willing or even able to assume his portfolios themselves. Another consideration could be that it's in their interest to have Cyric and the very gods most likely to profit from his demise exhaust or at least occupy themselves for an extended period of time as they try to exploit his house-arrest and he struggles to maintain his power-base. Feasible but a stretch in my opinion. We don't know all the details but I'm still of the opinion that they couldn't kill him outright for some reason. I have a hard time seeing any of the deities, except maybe sune, sparing Cyric for any reason if they had the opportunity to eradicate him permanently. Yea his portfolios may go to another but they are no longer under the power of an ambitiously successful nemesis any longer. And despite the common opinion of these boards, Cyric has been very successful in a very short amount of time, unlike many other evil deities who even with a few extra portfolios would still pose not much of a threat.
Vasyek 10-17-07, 07:04 PM	I have a hard time seeing any of the deities, except maybe sune, sparing Cyric for any reason if they had the opportunity to eradicate him permanently. Actually, as per the end of Crucible, I think Sune would cheerfully gut him along with the rest if there weren't any practical reason not to. And despite the common opinion of these boards, Cyric has been very successful in a very short amount of time, unlike many other evil deities who even with a few extra portfolios would still pose not much of a threat. For all that I'm a bigger fan of Cyric than I am of Shar, I think the pantheon as a whole would be a hell of a lot more worried about what she could/would do with his portfolios than anything Cyric might pull off. She has eons more experience, she's more subtle and patient than him, and her goal by its very nature requires her to be willing to die to see it come to pass. I think we're supposed to believe that at least the greater evil gods in general are a pretty big deal; the pantheon itself seems to. Talona, Mask, and Loviatar 'desperately fear' Bane in spite of the rather oafish portrayal of him in the avatar trilogy, Talos seems to have no problems keeping the gods of fury in line, and Shar's apparently able to evade/keep pretty much everyone at bay on her lonesome in spite of the fact that there's not a god around who doesn't covet her power or wouldn't be delighted to see her go. The threats they pose aren't so easy to dismiss, and much less so if they're able to claim another greater god's church/portfolios.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 07:26 PM	You know for someone who is a heavy advocate of the gods slaufgtering each other the way they do...and for someone who critizes fans alot for protesting bad things to their favorite character you seem very protective of Cyric. Actually, if it were Mystra or another god imprisoned. I'd feel the same. I'm not against deities dying but I do tend to think that Helm killed in a Love duel is pretty silly. I was very fond of Helm.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-17-07, 08:05 PM	Actually, if it were Mystra or another god imprisoned. I'd feel the same. I'm not against deities dying but I do tend to think that Helm killed in a Love duel is pretty silly. I was very fond of Helm. You were? Your comments on Candlekeep didn't leave that impression.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 08:17 PM	I always ran Helm as the admirable jackass. He never bent the rules for anyone and was the only man whom did what he was told while refusing to play the games of the other gods. My players had a love/hate relationship with Helm because his Good followers were VERY Good while his bad followers were VERY bad. But yeah, I'm going to miss him in my campaigns. Torm taking up most of his portfolios just doesn't feel right.
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 11:44 PM	Actually, if it were Mystra or another god imprisoned. I'd feel the same. I'm not against deities dying but I do tend to think that Helm killed in a Love duel is pretty silly. I was very fond of Helm. That I think we'll agree on.
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 11:46 PM	I always ran Helm as the admirable jackass. He never bent the rules for anyone and was the only man whom did what he was told while refusing to play the games of the other gods. My players had a love/hate relationship with Helm because his Good followers were VERY Good while his bad followers were VERY bad. But yeah, I'm going to miss him in my campaigns. Torm taking up most of his portfolios just doesn't feel right. Why would Torm get them? Tyr killed Helm Tyr get his stuff. Personaly I think I wouldn't dislike the gods killing each other as much if they didn't act like immortals from the Highlander series. Though still gods should only act though their followers...but I guess it is really too late for that.
Charles Phipps 10-17-07, 11:48 PM	If I wanted Gods to act only through their followers, I'd play Dragonlance. But yeah, it's up to the DM. As for Tyr, I doubt that any of Helm's followers will go to him. Also, I doubt he's that crass to absorb his portfolios.
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 11:57 PM	If I wanted Gods to act only through their followers, I'd play Dragonlance. Sorry I like it when PCs actions matter. And I really don't like running campaigns as high as 50+ level so their actions do matter.
Charles Phipps 10-18-07, 12:09 AM	Sorry I like it when PCs actions matter. And I really don't like running campaigns as high as 50+ level so their actions do matter. I'm debating that for my game, PCs won't be able to rise above 20th level and that's the "Mortal Limit" of races with folk like Elminster and so on "capped" at that level because it's ridiculous to have them higher. Likewise, other Realms figures would be reduced to more reasonable levels. For example, Azoun and Gareth would be 14th or 16th level. Frankly, I've always run the gods as sort of powerless against mortal free will. As stated, I run a very humanistic setting. The gods meddle constantly and Pcs have the chance to see them frustrated, beaten, or even destroyed. However, they can screw with divine plans or be a part of them even at low levels. Nevertheless, direct confrontation is just suicide. This is completely non-canon, of course. But, I go by the For Duty or Deity model where a bunch of Mid levelers brave the Abyss and rescue Waukeen from right under Graazt's nose using stealth and intelligence over brute force. Then again, everyone else on these boards tends to treat the gods as omniscient which is really the opposite in my games. The PCs advantages of being unknown is really the only thing they have over most archwizards, dragons, and so on. Combat is usually a last resort unless they've got some plan. (and without a MaguffinTM like the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings or whatever, usually the Mid to low High Levels of my PCs would get utterly crushed by a God if they ever thought to attack their avatar) But yeah, this is utterly against the Realms and really has no bearing on anyone else's game or canon.
SgtAnjay 10-18-07, 12:57 AM	The developers have stated they had him kill Mystra (as opposed to some other Mystra-death) to end that "Cyric story" so they could tell other Cyric stories. I'll refrain from going into my thoughts on how the saga of Kelemvor, Midnight, and Cyric is now a "Cyric story", and that the fact that Kelemvor's still out there, and their story had till now been a triangle, means the story isn't really finished. Anyway. The fact that they're specifically keeping Cyric to tell more Cyric stories means the developers want Cyric around, and so they're going to keep him around. Therefore......Cyric has script immunity. Just like Elminster and Drizzt are guaranteed to stick around thanks to script immunity. Just like in the novels where they wanted Mystra to win she had script immunity. Just like the far and away grand majority of protagonists in the history of story-telling have had script immunity. They survive and succeed because thats the point of the story. Many people are upset with Cyric having this script immunity for any number of reasons. One common one is Cyric at the outset reminded them of the power hungry, backstabbing sneaks who disrupt their adventuring parties and detract from their fellow players' enjoyment of a D&D campaign. So not only are they inclined to dislike him because they remind them of those they dislike, but the fact that Cyric succeeds is seen as encouraging party-disrupting players. A second reason is....the Dead Three had a really interesting origin story, which included a very interesting twist: Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything, painted as invulnerable in his power, decided he didn't want it, and it got split up among the Three. Then here comes Cyric....not only does he get to reap the rewards of offing the Dead Three, he gets Leira, and steals from the God of Thieves! So sorry if you were a fan of any of those gods. This also means he now has all the power Jergal, the unchallenged Lord of the End of Everything had and more. Hurray, now he's teh super-l33t ganker, h4xxor uber eeeeeevil, and supreme pwner! This from someone who PCs running through the Avatar modules had to run with. Talk about an overshadowing NPC. Another common, though possibly more subconscious reason, is that Cyric in many ways has elements of the traditional antagonist in storytelling, not protagonist; seeing him win disrupts how things "should" go. This last, btw, is about one of the few things I enjoy about Cyric: he tends to be used to subvert expectations. As for some other topics... Secrets lets you keep a plan secret. It lets you keep information from being found out. Combined with intrigue and deception, its entirely likely two Greater deities could prevent divination from finding out about something beforehand. Also, its interesting that Cyric states he knows Mystra's "true name". If anything could give one an "in" you otherwise wouldn't get, its that; and if there's anything that would help you make the most of it, its the intrigue and murder portolios combined with the experience of Shar. Although, note: using the portfolio of illusion against the deity of the Weave is like the Red Knight trying to use the strategy portolio against Tempus, or Mielikki trying to use the forrest portfolio against Silvanus; illusion is a subset of magic, just like necromancy, or divination (illusion's opposite). A note on portfolios, though...portfolios can go away. Just because you kill a god with, say, Dusk, and dont take that portfolio, doesn't mean that some other god will automatically get dusk. The portfolio will just remain unclaimed, with a god who wanted it having to work to try and claim it, and opposed deities having a chance to fight for it or thwart them. Also, portfolios can apparently be wildly reimagined/subverted; Finder turned Moander's portfolios into appropriate ones for a Bard-God. So lets look at Cyric's portfolios: illusion, deception, and lies aren't "evil"; Leira had those as her entire demense and she was not evil. Tyr would want them unclaimed and would fight to keep it that way, and thus work to interfere with the deities who would inevitably compete amonst themselves for them. "Murder" could be folded into "death", as it is a type of death; Kelemvor has death, so that portfolio could be given to him or he could claim it as rightfully his should it become open. Intrigue doesn't have to be evil (Lathander could probably benefit from having intrigue in another Dawn Crusade), and could also be considered/folded into politics (a nice little gift from Sune to her new follower, Siamorphe?), plotting (a pretty little gift from Tyr to win over Hoar?), or any number of other things. Strife may be harder to turn to good, and is coveted by Bane. But he'd have to work for it; many gods would gladly grab it, not least of which are Shar, possibly Mask, Talos, Gargauth, and should the thought pop into Tempus's head that, hey, wouldn't strife go well with that whole war thing, suddenly whoever wants it has to fight a war with Tempus without fighting a war because a war would make Tempus stronger. Tricky tricky. To sumarize that rather long-winded exercise in portfolio-theory and "what if"....the fact that Cyric had distasteful portfolios is no reason not to kill him. This means, either three greater deities couldn't kill him (for whatever reason, though that's hard to imagine), or they chose not to.
Charles Phipps 10-18-07, 01:34 AM	Strife is tailor made for Talos, I think. I mean he's already the God of Chaos and Destruction. ;-) As for why Cyric wasn't killed. I couldn't say, though I half suspect they wanted him to suffer a suitable punishment for his crimes rather than just destroy him. If Cyric DID die then that would just result in A LOT of evil worshippers going to another goddess. If all Cyricists started worshipping Shar. Well, to be honest, that's even worse than letting him live.
Vasyek 10-18-07, 06:25 AM	TA note on portfolios, though...portfolios can go away. Just because you kill a god with, say, Dusk, and dont take that portfolio, doesn't mean that some other god will automatically get dusk. The portfolio will just remain unclaimed, with a god who wanted it having to work to try and claim it, and opposed deities having a chance to fight for it or thwart them. There's the whole shifting aspects of the solar tripartite to explain the recession of Dusk, however, and it doesn't have any particular thematic tie to any of the gods in the Faerunian pantheon at the moment; not so the case with Strife, Murder, Lies, and so forth. Then there's the assumption that they are in a position to seal the portfolios: an action that would, in any case, merely compound the effort they'd have to expend in this ordeal both in the immediate sense of barring access to them and the progressive sense of enforcing this state of affairs. This would be in addition to all the casualties and lasting wounds/impediments that they'd risk being inflicted among them in the process of fighting to the death with Cyric. But returning to the matter of whether they were in much of a position to do so, Shar was in the thick of it well before they came around to deliberate Cyric's fate. Be it a matter of greater insight into the nature of the disruptions heralding the Tree's collapse from witnessing the moment of their inception, a karmic bond of sorts being in effect due to her role in Mystra's assassination, or something else entirely, her past/present involvement could interfere with their efforts to tamper with or bar access to the portfolios. A number of his portfolios are ones that she personally has moderate to strong thematic ties to in any case, and the fact that she held sway over most of them in the past is another count on which she might be able to subvert the efforts of Tyr, Sune, and Lathander should they attempt to have their way with the portfolios. Also, portfolios can apparently be wildly reimagined/subverted; Finder turned Moander's portfolios into appropriate ones for a Bard-God. Sure, after petitioning Ao, who may delay in responding or not deign to respond at all seeing as it's a mess they made with full knowledge of alternatives open to them. And even if he did respond, there's the question of whether his response would even be in favor of such a proposition. But supposing for a moment that any/all of the gods present can even begin to impose their own will/discretion upon the conceptual nature of portfolios to which they are by their very nature opposed (unlike Finder, whose opposition to Rot was at most moral/aesthetic), there's no guarantee that it would an easy or simple thing by any means. Certainly it would be opposed by all of the malign/power-hungry deities who crave rulership over those portfolios as they presently exist, and the chore of putting Cyric down necessitates an investment of power and attention that simply aches to be exploited by this lot before Tyr and the rest have the opportunity to make good on their intentions. Combine this with the collapse of the Tree cosmology, all those panicked intermediate/lesser/demi-god refugees scurrying about, the greater gods' task of preserving their own realms, and, of course, trying to minimize the damage inflicted upon Toril upon the Weave's collapse... there's enough diverting their time and energy that the prospect of smoothing the edges off of Cyric's portfolios begins to lose viability/appeal. Even once the dust has settled to an extent, the process of attending to the aforementioned issues could well require an expenditure on their part that is in some cases continual and in others resolved but costly enough to discourage them from further consuming their power/resources, especially when it would have only become a more demanding task for them given the time Cyric would have had to fortify himself within his prison.
buzzard 10-18-07, 07:05 AM	Initiate of Mystra was a way to balance that. I don't buy that. It's not like one can use the Shadow Weave for free, you require a feat plus there's Rend Shadow Weave and also one is not supposed to be running into a DMZ every other minute... :rolleyes:. And that feat is universally considered overpowered because it allows you to cast in an anti-magic zone (with an even easier DC) and that has nothing to do with the Shadow Weave nor Psionics. And I will say that not even a good one, you need at least 3 levels of cleric, something that most arcane spellcasters would never bother to have and it's not 100% effective, unlike psionics and Shadow Weave. But for the sake of my argument let's suppose it is to balance something -yet- it ignores solid lore established before and knowing this I can prove my point, that when Mystra breaks the rules it's all right and no one ever complains but it's the end of the world if Cyric and Shar do the same. Actualy no it is wrong in both cases...except for the fact that a deity is greater then Asmodeus even on his own planes. You have yet to come up with anything to disprove that. Levistus, lord of the fifth circle of hell is constantly winning battles against Set who lives in the same plane. Obviously in this case the archdevil is stronger than the deity. Asmodeus expelled the entire Orc and Goblinoid pantheons from Baator. That proves that the gods are no match for the archdevils in Baator. By now it's pretty well established that deities are like flies to Asmodeus in the nine hells.
Stigger 10-18-07, 08:06 AM	I don't consider that feat overpowered... so not quite universal there. :P Widely perhaps, but not universally. ;)
SgtAnjay 10-18-07, 12:44 PM	There's the whole shifting aspects of the solar tripartite to explain the recession of Dusk, however, and it doesn't have any particular thematic tie to any of the gods in the Faerunian pantheon at the moment; not so the case with Strife, Murder, Lies, and so forth. Dusk was but one example. No one's taken up the bureaucracy or contract portfolios. Nor cities. Those were held by now-dead deities. There are hosts of potfolios out there that no one's even taken; there are deities of divination, illusion, and necromancy, but the other schools of magic are unclaimed. My point still stands. Then there's the assumption that they are in a position to seal the portfolios: an action that would, in any case, merely compound the effort they'd have to expend in this ordeal both in the immediate sense of barring access to them and the progressive sense of enforcing this state of affairs. This would be in addition to all the casualties and lasting wounds/impediments that they'd risk being inflicted among them in the process of fighting to the death with Cyric.I never said anything about "sealing" a portfolio. If they destroy the god who holds the portfolio, but do not claim it, then the portfolio is up for someone to claim it. However, this isn't something automatic; deities who wanted it would have to exert effort and energies, and invest time, to become the deity of that portfolio. In most cases, multiple deities would be competing for them, increasing the amount of time and energy it would take to claim any of these open portfolios. All Lathander, Sune, and/or Tyr (that's three greater deities, mind you) have to do, if they want to stop it being claimed is keep any one of the competing deities from gaining enough sway; that doesn't even require much in the way of direct conflict. Though, it'd probably be temporarily; permanently eliminating a portfolio that's sought after is probably untenable. But returning to the matter of whether they were in much of a position to do so, Shar was in the thick of it well before they came around to deliberate Cyric's fate. Be it a matter of greater insight into the nature of the disruptions heralding the Tree's collapse from witnessing the moment of their inception, a karmic bond of sorts being in effect due to her role in Mystra's assassination, or something else entirely, her past/present involvement could interfere with their efforts to tamper with or bar access to the portfolios. A number of his portfolios are ones that she personally has moderate to strong thematic ties to in any case, and the fact that she held sway over most of them in the past is another count on which she might be able to subvert the efforts of Tyr, Sune, and Lathander should they attempt to have their way with the portfolios.If Cyric wanted to, he could grant Shar any or all of his portfolios as he died. There's precedent for that. Other than that, the deities who destroyed the portfolio holder are the ones who determine whether they try to claim the portfolio (the classic kill-the-god-get-his-stuff), pass the portfolio on to someone else (which there's also precedent for), or just leave the portfolio unclaimed, at which point they can subvert those expending the time and energy to try to claim them (and really, subverting evil deities is part of what Lathander and Tyr generally do anyway). If gods could claim portfolios by saying "hey, thats my theme!" godhood would be quite a whole hell of a lot easier. Also, just because a deity used to have a portfolio doesn't mean they can auto-claim either, though its probably a very good head start on competitors to claim it. Sure, after petitioning Ao, who may delay in responding or not deign to respond at all seeing as it's a mess they made with full knowledge of alternatives open to them. And even if he did respond, there's the question of whether his response would even be in favor of such a proposition.What?? You dont "petition" Ao like you're trying to take out a patent to do something with your portfolio. You just do it; if Ao cares enough to intervene, it just doesn't work. After the fact, its possible for other deities to claim you're not living up to your portfolio and ask for adjutication from Ao, but this is far from any kind of common event; in fact, has it happened to anyone but Cyric? But supposing for a moment that any/all of the gods present can even begin to impose their own will/discretion upon the conceptual nature of portfolios to which they are by their very nature opposed (unlike Finder, whose opposition to Rot was at most moral/aesthetic), there's no guarantee that it would an easy or simple thing by any means. A deity imposing their will on the nature of portfolios is what deities do. The sea isn't good or evil; Umberlee is evil. Storms aren't good or evil; Talos is evil. Illusions aren't good or evil; Cyric is evil. It's about interpretation and the will of the deity, so other portfolios held by Cyric which aren't neccesarily out of reach for good deities. Moreover, as I pointed out above, even if none of the three involved (Lathander, Sune, and Tyr) aren't themselves interested in a portfolio, a deity in possession of a portfolio is always able to pass it along to some other deity; that's something that's happened many times. So maybe none of them really want intrigue; they could pass them to their allies or subordinates. Considering their allies and subordinates may well be reeling from the planar destruction, feeding them power by way of a portfolio makes a rather large amount of sense. As far as Finder's example, Tymora petitioned for Finder to be able to absorb Moander's power; he himself, a mortal newly accepted to godhood, changed rotting, decay, and corruption into portfolios suitable for a divine bard. I think three ancient, experienced greater deities could probably figure it out if he did. Certainly it would be opposed by all of the malign/power-hungry deities who crave rulership over those portfolios as they presently exist, and the chore of putting Cyric down necessitates an investment of power and attention that simply aches to be exploited by this lot before Tyr and the rest have the opportunity to make good on their intentions. You can't oppose actions on a portfolio you dont have. It isn't yours to make the claim; you'd have to take or steal it somehow first. Also the act of changing a portfolio to suit your ideas, as Cyric, Finder and such have done, seemed to be near instantaneous and didn't seem to drain them of power. The same with portfolio transfer. Combine this with the collapse of the Tree cosmology, all those panicked intermediate/lesser/demi-god refugees scurrying about, the greater gods' task of preserving their own realms, and, of course, trying to minimize the damage inflicted upon Toril upon the Weave's collapse... there's enough diverting their time and energy that the prospect of smoothing the edges off of Cyric's portfolios begins to lose viability/appeal. Since portfolio manipulation has never seemed to require much, if anything at all, in the way of time or resources, that doesn't seem to be a problem, especially when taking portfolios increases the power and stability of deities; it doesnt make them weaker. Also....its not like the good deities are the only ones dealing with the effects of the planar catastrophe; all the evil deities are just as affected. Even once the dust has settled to an extent, the process of attending to the aforementioned issues could well require an expenditure on their part that is in some cases continual and in others resolved but costly enough to discourage them from further consuming their power/resources, especially when it would have only become a more demanding task for them given the time Cyric would have had to fortify himself within his prison.What? Thie whole point of this scenario is to illustrate that just because Cyric has portfolios that wouldn't be claimed by Lathander, Sune, or Tyr, that isn't a reason for them not to destroy Cyric. Cyric being imprisoned is irrelevant, because under this scenario he never was, he was destroyed by the three greater deities arrayed against him. Now, all that said, everyone being weak and unsure in the wake of Spellplague's apocalypse is a possible reason for them to have imprisoned, and not destroyed, Cyric. By now it's pretty well established that deities are like flies to Asmodeus in the nine hells.Thats generally how it worked on the Wheel. Thats not how it worked under the Tree. In the new cosmology, it appears Asmodeus is now just a type of greater deity, with the Nine Hells his divine realm.....so divine realm rules apply.
msatran 10-18-07, 02:32 PM	The problem is that they created this NPC and then we had to somehow not be disgusted by it. Reading about Cyric is revolting because of precisely the reasons mentioned in the aforementioned post. Making the God of Not Fun more powerful doesn't win awards of any sort. Richard Baker Must Be Stopped!
Puggins 10-18-07, 03:02 PM	As for why Cyric wasn't killed. I couldn't say, though I half suspect they wanted him to suffer a suitable punishment for his crimes rather than just destroy him. If Cyric DID die then that would just result in A LOT of evil worshippers going to another goddess. If all Cyricists started worshipping Shar. Well, to be honest, that's even worse than letting him live. I think only people with long, deep comics memories remember Hero Alliance, a comic book published about twenty years ago. It really isn't worth remembering, truth be told. There's one element that stayed with me, though, and it's relevant to this discussion. The core idea behind the entire series was an attempt to rebuild a super hero team after most of the original team of a dozen or so members were killed when their headquarters was leveled by a massive explosion. Early in the series, Victor, a superman clone who lived through the HQ's destruction, finds out that the villain who blew up the team was basically an insane bomb maker with no powers at all- a third-rate villain who he had put in jail so easily that he barely remembered who the criminal was. The idea that a team of near-gods- who had successfully fought and destroyed cosmic threat and armies of super aliens- could be laid low by the equivalent of a flunky and a bunch of C-4 was so unbearable to Victor that he nearly flipped out and leveled a city block. It was so anti-climatic that it stuck with me, and it might be the reason I find all this mess caused by an upstart god who never seemed to be able to do anything wrong... er... right just delicious.
Charles Phipps 10-18-07, 03:36 PM	Another Cyric answer... I meant "tool" in both senses of the word, I think... Cyric is some ways is the ultimate munchkin. I can almost see him shouting "pwned u!" when he takes down Mystra. Maybe I'm not giving him much credit, but I think it's kinda interesting that there's a major deity who has no respect for/sense of "the rules" for how deities should act. Cyric might grow into a Loki someday when he starts learning to delay self-gratification and take the long view. But for now, he's far more petty and dangerous than a greater deity really has a right to be.
Inexorable 10-18-07, 03:52 PM	The problem is that they created this NPC and then we had to somehow not be disgusted by it. Reading about Cyric is revolting because of precisely the reasons mentioned in the aforementioned post. Making the God of Not Fun more powerful doesn't win awards of any sort. Richard Baker Must Be Stopped! I didn't find reading about Cyric revolting at all. I understand everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I'm of a different one. I'm sorry but he slaughtered a bunch of halflings mercilessly at one point in the avatar trilogy... and that was phenomenal!!! Nothing better than a bunch of slaughtered halflings. One of my favorite missions in the second Baldur's Gate game was when you had to clear the planar sphere of those demented halflings... great stuff!! Anyway, SgtAnjay you make a lot of valid points but, script immunity or not, there ought to be a valid reason as to why Cyric was imprisoned instead of killed by the gathering of those three greater deities. I'm hoping we get one in the not so distant future. Cool quote by Mr. Baker, but I don't agree with the munchkin assessment. Petty, self-gratifying, and without regard and respect for tradition, yep that sounds like him. Munchkin brings up heinous memories of leet speak and moronic players in WoW and Daoc... and I would never equate anything in the realms, no matter how much I disliked it to that level.
Charles Phipps 10-18-07, 04:03 PM	Anyway, SgtAnjay you make a lot of valid points but, script immunity or not, there ought to be a valid reason as to why Cyric was imprisoned instead of killed by the gathering of those three greater deities. I'm hoping we get one in the not so distant future. In the end I imagine it'll boil down to "After fighting a lengthy godswar and stabilizing their planes, they were too weak to be able to destroy Cyric but could combine their powers to banish him."
Alediran 10-18-07, 04:05 PM	Cool quote by Mr. Baker, but I don't agree with the munchkin assessment. Petty, self-gratifying, and without regard and respect for tradition, yep that sounds like him. Munchkin brings up heinous memories of leet speak and moronic players in WoW and Daoc... and I would never equate anything in the realms, no matter how much I disliked it to that level. That is exactly what Mr. Baker said, Cyric is a munchkin with script immunity. He should be erased from the Realms history for ever.
Charles Phipps 10-18-07, 04:18 PM	Because making him a DECENT character seems to have missed everyone... :rolleyes:
Alediran 10-18-07, 04:35 PM	Nothing good comes from rotten roots.
Vasyek 10-18-07, 05:30 PM	Dusk was but one example. No one's taken up the bureaucracy or contract portfolios. Nor cities. Those were held by now-dead deities. There are hosts of potfolios out there that no one's even taken; Same deal regarding thematic ties for bureaucracy and contracts; in other cases we have conscious efforts to avoid portfolios, such as with Tempus. Something of a case could be made, I suppose, for cities between Mask and Waukeen, but that's several orders weaker than the affinities between, say, Secrets and Intrigue/Deception/Lies, or Rebellion and Strife, or Hatred and Murder. there are deities of divination, illusion, and necromancy, but the other schools of magic are unclaimed. My point still stands. Not unclaimed, formally nonexistent as portfolios at present. There has never been a god of Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, or Transmutation within the Faerunian pantheon up to this point. For them to have been out there as portfolios for all this time, it means that no one's ever bothered to claim any of them, even those that could have done so quite easily; otherwise, we are left with the less patently absurd notion that their significance within the area over which the Faerunian pantheon holds sway has not been sufficient to make them distinct from broader portfolios that might already encompass their effects. I never said anything about "sealing" a portfolio. Look, what you go on to describe amounts to "sealing" a portfolio as I meant it. In the sense that it is actively forced out of divine circulation by those who do not wish to see anyone else obtain it. If they destroy the god who holds the portfolio, but do not claim it, then the portfolio is up for someone to claim it. Yet there are cases where gaining portfolios was neither a matter of killing a god and taking their stuff or even special effort, however. Bane's acquisition of Fear and Cyric's seizure of Intrigue from Mask are two examples, and Shar preempting them by tearing the portfolios from a weakened/dying Cyric would be quite reminiscent of the latter. It would not be automatic I can agree, but considering her past claim to them, their synergies with her existing portfolios, her close involvement in the series of events that would lead to them becoming accessible, and any measures/contingencies that were implemented over the course of their conspiracy to murder Mystra, such as Cyric's possible conversion to the Shadow Weave to enable him to wield magic against her, she might well have a claim to them that would both preempt and exceed that of the ones who merely killed him. deities who wanted it would have to exert effort and energies, and invest time, to become the deity of that portfolio. And what do you think the investment of time and energy toward claiming a portfolio entails in practice? Obviously things like the cultivation of thematic ties to the portfolio play a part in determining who ends up with them, likely as a key a role in successfully obtaining them as smashing in the face of the last god to hold them. Portfolios aren't objects that you can snatch, they are forces/concepts you bring yourself into alignment with. What then, of gods who are naturally closer to being aligned with these forces/concepts and those who are naturally opposed? Do the first not have any sort of 'lead' or advantage in the pursuit of a given portfolio or portfolios by your estimation? Is the only thing barring the second from claiming antithetical portfolios their lack of desire to do so? In most cases, multiple deities would be competing for them, increasing the amount of time and energy it would take to claim any of these open portfolios. That works both ways, though. The attempts by multiple deities to seize the portfolios would increase the energy expended in the process of preventing any of them from doing so. All Lathander, Sune, and/or Tyr (that's three greater deities, mind you) have to do, if they want to stop it being claimed is keep any one of the competing deities from gaining enough sway; that doesn't even require much in the way of direct conflict. It might not require much direct conflict if they are able to prevent the contenders from reaching any sort of agreement as to which portfolios would go to whom, and such an agreement could very well come into effect between at least Shar and Bane, Bane and Mask, Shar and Set, or any number of other pairings. Given the sudden rank codependence of all gods intermediate and below upon the greater gods, there are only so many whose presence could conceivably matter in the competition, and the ones guarding the portfolios are in a fundamentally worse position to begin with: the ones who'd want to claim the portfolios can simply set the matter aside until it is convenient to do otherwise while the ones trying to keep them from the portfolios must remain vigilant against attempts to circumvent their efforts, which reduces the effort/attention they can spare for other things. This in turn leaves them more susceptible against the indirect means that the opposing gods are equally capable of employing to make the Love and Justice trio suffer on other fronts and thus loosen their hold on the portfolios they wish to bar access to. Other than that, the deities who destroyed the portfolio holder are the ones who determine whether they try to claim the portfolio (the classic kill-the-god-get-his-stuff), A precedent you overextend by attempting to portray as feasible in every case, given that all the examples in which portfolios are claimed by deicide involve similar interests/portfolios to begin with or at least a lack of conflict between the portfolios the victor already holds and the ones they end up assuming. Other than that, it comes down to mortals ascending on the basis of the slain god's portfolio's alone. There is no indication that it would be so cut and dried in cases where there are portfolio conflicts. If gods could claim portfolios by saying "hey, thats my theme!" godhood would be quite a whole hell of a lot easier. It's not simply a matter of saying, "Hey, that's my theme!", though conceptual proximity could very well provide an edge in the effort of claiming it. No, I agree that it comes down to proving that it's their 'theme'... the thing is, though, there are gods who have been basically doing just that through their own actions and the behavior/beliefs they cultivate in mortals for centuries on end. Whether they did so exclusively to obtain the portfolios is irrelevant. If anything godhood would be a whole hell of a lot easier if you could just call dibs on the portfolios of whoever you just killed no matter how far removed your area of influence, personal philosophies, and previous actions are from theirs. All the good guys have to do then is band together and kill a bad guy here and there to block or even sanitize the portfolios that jerk held before the remaining bad guys can exploit/claim and there you have it: Murder in and of itself, or whatever alternative portfolio you want to rewrite or keep off limits, no longer carries the prospect of divine reward. So Hatred and similar portfolios might compel murder anyway... but that's ok! We just need to kill Bane and rewrite Hatred as Righteous Indignation. Certainly they can manage that about as easily they managed offing Cyric. Also, just because a deity used to have a portfolio doesn't mean they can auto-claim either, though its probably a very good head start on competitors to claim it. That's what it comes done to here: headstarts. I'm not counting anything in the equation, be it responsibility for the god's death, natural synergy between portfolios and past/present actions, or even former rulership over the portfolios that the dead god had, as anything but ways of facilitating the process of claiming portfolios. Any of them can be countered by the others. What?? You dont "petition" Ao like you're trying to take out a patent to do something with your portfolio. Conceptually revising a portfolio required Ao's approval in Finder's case, or so I've heard. Given a lack of any means to confirm it firsthand it's not something I'll stake a lot of emphasis on. A deity imposing their will on the nature of portfolios is what deities do. Sure, on their own portfolios. And even then it's far more frequently a matter of implementation rather than altering the nature of the portfolio itself. Do you honestly think that all the benevolent deities really have to do is kill their nasty counterparts, at which point it's a simple matter of spontaneously revising their portfolios to be more benign? It's about interpretation and the will of the deity, so other portfolios held by Cyric which aren't neccesarily out of reach for good deities. The nature of the deity also comes into play, and the nature of the deity is defined by their portfolios. Certainly not to the point that they can't put their own spin on them at all, but there are burdens on the portfolios' applications and their effects on the deity's perspective that remain inescapable. Finder, for all that he is the THE example of portfolio revision, is no exception to this, to quote Faiths and Avatars: Finder has a dual aspect as a divine being. Rot and corruption (a remainder of Moander's portfolio) represent Finder's excessive pride, arrogance, and vanity. Rebirth and renewal from rot and corruption symbolize Finder's transformation into hero, savior, and deity. It sounds like something of a done deal in the latter aspect's favor given his attempts to reform, until you consider how the negative aspect has bound itself to his personality and how the positive aspect cannot escape its dependence on its counterpart. Another example is Tempus, who spares Garagos out of loathing for the aspects of war he'd be forced to assume if he were to slay him. That wouldn't be an issue at all if putting his own spin on the Reaver's portfolios was sufficient to cleanse all that he finds distasteful about them. Yet another is Mystra and the Shadow Weave, particularly the mention made of the threat it could pose to her remaining humanity should she absorb it, which again wouldn't be an issue to speak of if avoiding its consequences were as simple as saying "well, I'll just preside over this in my own way." As far as Finder's example, Tymora petitioned for Finder to be able to absorb Moander's power; he himself, a mortal newly accepted to godhood, changed rotting, decay, and corruption into portfolios suitable for a divine bard. I think three ancient, experienced greater deities could probably figure it out if he did. Not necessarily. Given the limitations that portfolios tend to have on divine perspective as mentioned in Prince of Lies, it may well have taken a mortal's clarity to warp the portfolio in question to the extent it was. You can't oppose actions on a portfolio you dont have. It isn't yours to make the claim; you'd have to take or steal it somehow first. Or have an opposing claim to the portfolio. Tyr & Co. would have some by virtue of killing Cyric, other gods would exert theirs through natures complimentary to the portfolios and a history of perpetuating actions and beliefs that facilitate the portfolios' emergence in the Planes and on the Prime. Also the act of changing a portfolio to suit your ideas, as Cyric, Finder and such have done, seemed to be near instantaneous and didn't seem to drain them of power. The same with portfolio transfer. Cyric hasn't changed any portfolios to suit his ideas in the sense Finder did. He uses the portfolios he has as sees fit, but he hasn't altered the intrinsic nature of the portfolios he gained. Since portfolio manipulation has never seemed to require much, if anything at all, in the way of time or resources, that doesn't seem to be a problem, especially when taking portfolios increases the power and stability of deities; it doesnt make them weaker. Sure, basing all possible instances on a single one involving a god who was at the end of a long period of decline, a god all but forgotten. Compare this to Cyric whose actions warped the fabric of reality, who goaded to god of Justice into disgrace and sunder the Triad itself through his machinations. His mark on the world, and consequently the way people view the forces associated with him, are going to be a great deal more entrenched. Also....its not like the good deities are the only ones dealing with the effects of the planar catastrophe; all the evil deities are just as affected. They sure are, but they don't have to care about their lessers in the planes and they don't have to try anywhere near as hard to protect the Prime from the effects of the Spellplague. The likes of Lathander, Tyr, and Sune will by their natures be compelled to shelter a far greater number of people than their evil counterparts, who need only concern themselves with their own following (and even that to the bare minimum require to maintain their present level of power if depending on how much benefit they hope to derive from the portfolios they're vying for.) What? Thie whole point of this scenario is to illustrate that just because Cyric has portfolios that wouldn't be claimed by Lathander, Sune, or Tyr, that isn't a reason for them not to destroy Cyric. Cyric being imprisoned is irrelevant, because under this scenario he never was, he was destroyed by the three greater deities arrayed against him. And the 'even so...' portion of that response was more an exercise of self-indulgence on my part, an anticipatory consideration (not necessarily relating to anything you'd personally go on to say) as to why they wouldn't go back and kill him after imprisoning him, than anything else.
Inexorable 10-18-07, 06:00 PM	Because making him a DECENT character seems to have missed everyone... :rolleyes: Personally I find him more than decent as a character already. I agree with Mr. Baker's opinion of Cyric minus the munchkin reference: ...but I think it's kinda interesting that there's a major deity who has no respect for/sense of "the rules" for how deities should act. Cyric might grow into a Loki someday when he starts learning to delay self-gratification and take the long view. But for now, he's far more petty and dangerous than a greater deity really has a right to be. The bold part is an observation I agree with along with his opinion that its interesting, except I would use the word "very" instead of "kinda". Then again, I've already stated that I'm a fan of twisted and dark characters/creatures/entities.
msatran 10-18-07, 06:40 PM	Nothing good comes from rotten roots. That should be "Nothing good ever came of writing badly." Why do you think Ed Greenwood was so careful to make sure the Cult of the Dragon originated in a comma misplacement? It was a cautionary tale against characters like Cyric, who we now have.
Inexorable 10-18-07, 07:23 PM	In the end I imagine it'll boil down to "After fighting a lengthy godswar and stabilizing their planes, they were too weak to be able to destroy Cyric but could combine their powers to banish him." That excuse, if given, would be adequate, but nothing great. I would hope for a better reason to be honest. I would hate to have the three greater gods have Cyric completely under their power, where they could easily destroy him forever, but then one or more of them think better of it. That would be cheesy and hokey in my opinion. At least being too drained or depleted after holding their planes together, stabilizing their servants, etc. makes sense. That should be "Nothing good ever came of writing badly." Why do you think Ed Greenwood was so careful to make sure the Cult of the Dragon originated in a comma misplacement? It was a cautionary tale against characters like Cyric, who we now have. I guess opinions on bad writing vary. In your opinion Cyric is bad writing but he seems to be sticking around. I could be mistaken, as I'm not overly knowledgeable about what Ed Greenwood has written, but I believe he created mystra and the chosen. And they're the ones being done away with. It would appear that those pulling the strings don't agree with your opinion about what bad writing is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-18-07, 07:38 PM	I could be mistaken, as I'm not overly knowledgeable about what Ed Greenwood has written, but I believe he created mystra and the chosen. And they're the ones being done away with. It would appear that those pulling the strings don't agree with your opinion about what bad writing is. It was not Ed Greenwood's idea to have the Chosen of Mystra constantly pushed to the forefront as protagonists in novels. So again, WotC is trying to solve a "problem" that they created.
Inexorable 10-18-07, 07:48 PM	It was not Ed Greenwood's idea to have the Chosen of Mystra constantly pushed to the forefront as protagonists in novels. So again, WotC is trying to solve a "problem" that they created. Could very well be the case, as I mentioned I have little knowledge about Ed Greenwood's ideas, interests, opinions, writings, or the like, but as far as I can tell Cyric isn't being removed like the chosen and mystra. So, like I said, claiming Cyric is bad writing is an opinion not shared by those pulling the strings, which I'm fine with.
OrderofUhlrik 10-18-07, 10:25 PM	Just a question from someone who has a somewhat decent knowledge of the Faerunian pantheon. Why do not the trio of gods imprisoning Cyric make a deal with the only evil deity I can think of who wouldn't go ape crazy with certain parts of Cyric's portfolio? I'm thinking of Mask. At the moment he is a intermediate deity who would seemingly be in need of a place to hide since the cosmology is going to the Nine Hells in a handbasket. He obviously has no love for Shar or Cyric (Cyric for obvious reasons and Shar because of recent events within the new books featuring Erevis Cale.) He's never seemed like a true "evil" deity to me. He reads in sourcebooks and in recent texts as more of a Jarlaxle sort of neutral evil, and the portfolio's of intrigue and illusion would suit him well. Besides, I doubt he would betray the gods who empowered him for no reason, he's neutral evil not chaotic. So, seemingly, they could get two birds with one stone. Destroy Cyric and have an "Evil" deity somewhat in their pocket, or at least their side of the table. That's just my thought though, anyone agree?
Dark Wizard 10-18-07, 10:33 PM	Choosing the lesser or two evils is still choosing evil. That is something that the good-aligned gods would rather not do. The Mask they have now acts so and so, but with more power who knows. They have little guarantee Mask will act better than Cyric if given the chance.
OrderofUhlrik 10-18-07, 10:41 PM	True, very true, I just have always seen him as a sort of Godly personification of Jarlaxle and therefore not entirely "evil". I see your point though, goodly gods rarely choose the lesser of two evils since it is still evil. But when your choices are Cyric/Shar vs. Mask... I mean really, how stubborn can they afford to be? Maybe that's going to be the new theme, the good gods stubbornly continue to be good and are picked off one by one. Sounds... oh so terribly original (rolls eyes).
Charles Phipps 10-18-07, 11:10 PM	I think that D&D gamers rarely acknowledge that there's A LOT of variation within alignments about the amount of evil. Mask is evil in the context of Michael Corelone. He's very much about assassination, theft (obviously), money laundering, corruption, betrayal, and crooked business of every sort. He's also reasonably kind to his followers and family while vindictive to his enemies. Cyric is a :censored: serial killer whom releases World Devouring Wolves and Serpents while threatening reality. He's absolutely bat :censored: insane and will gleefully laugh as the world burns if he can have the last hurrah. Shar wants to destroy creation. I mean, we're dealing with different magnitudes on the order of Fzoul vs. a Pit Fiend vs. Tharizdun. Say what you will about Fzoul but he's still human even if he's an evil tyrant.
OrderofUhlrik 10-18-07, 11:25 PM	Exactly, and really who would be better suited in any respect for many of Cyric's portfolio than Mask. Other evil deities would use the newfound power to become tyrants. Or in the case of Shar to destroy reality. So if the three destroyed Cyric, and would be unwilling to take on his portfolio, what else could they do? I understand that good is good and bad is bad, but like you said, we're talking about two gods who would destroy everything or a somewhat evil deity who is little threat either way. Besides, as I pointed out earlier, they could then try and use Mask as a potential assassin for Shar.
SgtAnjay 10-18-07, 11:57 PM	Holy marathon posts, Batman! :P Same deal regarding thematic ties for bureaucracy and contracts; in other cases we have conscious efforts to avoid portfolios, such as with Tempus. Something of a case could be made, I suppose, for cities between Mask and Waukeen, but that's several orders weaker than the affinities between, say, Secrets and Intrigue/Deception/Lies, or Rebellion and Strife, or Hatred and Murder. Not the same deal at all. Read Grumbar's description; he's tailor made for the contract portfolio. Gargauth is a devil lord; he was undoubtedly using contracts as a means to power before he even was a deity. Gargauth would also fit bureaucracy. As for Tempus, the explanation that he doesn't kill Garagos because he doesn't want berserker rage is just in-world "sages speculation"; its hardly fact. It also contradicts how such things have happened in the past; portfolios have changed deities, but only when they accepted portfolios they took from their opponents. Tyr certainly didn't become chaotic because he killed Valygar Thirdborn. This is because he wasn't obliged to accept the portfolio of anarchy when he killed him. Notice, however, that anarchy is another portfolio that's gone vacant.... [QUOTE=Vasyek;14110669]Not unclaimed, formally nonexistent as portfolios at present. Which doesn't change the fact that a deity could set out to become the deity of transmutation, or evocation, or abjuration, etc, if they wished. There has never been a god of Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, or Transmutation within the Faerunian pantheon up to this point. For them to have been out there as portfolios for all this time, it means that no one's ever bothered to claim any of them, even those that could have done so quite easily; otherwise, we are left with the less patently absurd notion that their significance within the area over which the Faerunian pantheon holds sway has not been sufficient to make them distinct from broader portfolios that might already encompass their effects.Well, if a previously existant deity attempted to claim a portfolio like those examples (the magic schools), another deity with the possibility of having that portfolio would almost assuredly decide to compete, at which point they would have to spend time and resources to be "the" deity of that aspect in order to be recognized as possessor of that portfolio (I recall repeatedly referring to this process in previous posts). In some cases (for example, anarchy), you may not have direct competition, but claiming that portfolio will require direct conflict with another existing, and powerful, deity because that deity has a portfolio in opposition. So the question becomes: Is the portfolio worth what I'll have to do to get it? In many cases, the answer is no. Look, what you go on to describe amounts to "sealing" a portfolio as I meant it. In the sense that it is actively forced out of divine circulation by those who do not wish to see anyone else obtain it.A third party interfering in the conflicts of several deities they dislike who are competing with each other is a regular part of deity politics; it just so happens that in this case, the deities would be competing for a portfolio, instead of which church dominates a region, or some simular goal. Also, the portfolio wouldn't be sealed because in most cases a powerful portfolio worth the time, energy, and resources will eventually be claimed; its a delaying action, not some sort of "portfolio imprisonment", which the word "sealed" implies. Yet there are cases where gaining portfolios was neither a matter of killing a god and taking their stuff or even special effort, however. Bane's acquisition of Fear and Cyric's seizure of Intrigue from Mask are two examples, and Shar preempting them by tearing the portfolios from a weakened/dying Cyric would be quite reminiscent of the latter. I specifically recall mentioning that a portfolio can be stolen. Bane stole fear when Cyric was significantly weakened/disoriented. When Cyric broke Godsbane, Mask was weakened and Cyric stole intrigue (I recall saying in my initial comments about Cyric that he got to steal from the God of Thieves). I would definately call stealing a portfolio special effort, and if your scenario is that Shar would lurk in darkness and wait till Cyric was defeated, then run in and deal the deathblow in order to claim his portfolios, then we very much agree that is entirely possible. But that wouldn't stop Lathander, Sune, and Tyr from killing Cyric, because Shar being ready to do that would be a secret of the Goddess of Secrets; Lathander, Sune, and Tyr would never know till it was too late. That's how Shar works (or should, anyway). It would not be automatic I can agree, but considering her past claim to them, their synergies with her existing portfolios, her close involvement in the series of events that would lead to them becoming accessible, and any measures/contingencies that were implemented over the course of their conspiracy to murder Mystra, such as Cyric's possible conversion to the Shadow Weave to enable him to wield magic against her, she might well have a claim to them that would both preempt and exceed that of the ones who merely killed him."I helped Cyric so I get his portfolios" is hardly more valid than those actually claiming them directly from his divine essence. As for "past claim".....what past claim? All those portfolios, minus intrigue (from Mask), and lies/deception/illusion (from Leira) were from the Dead Three. The Dead Three got them from Jergal, the ancient Lord of the End of Everything. And what do you think the investment of time and energy toward claiming a portfolio entails in practice? Obviously things like the cultivation of thematic ties to the portfolio play a part in determining who ends up with them, likely as a key a role in successfully obtaining them as smashing in the face of the last god to hold them. Portfolios aren't objects that you can snatch, they are forces/concepts you bring yourself into alignment with. What then, of gods who are naturally closer to being aligned with these forces/concepts and those who are naturally opposed? Do the first not have any sort of 'lead' or advantage in the pursuit of a given portfolio or portfolios by your estimation? Is the only thing barring the second from claiming antithetical portfolios their lack of desire to do so?Considering how often portfolios are snatched like objects, they do appear to act like objects in many or even most cases. And a claimed portfolio is definately a held possession; a deity could speak nothing but lies, have all priests say nothing but lies, but they would actually have to confront Cyric, directly or indirectly, to actually take the lies portfolio. Now if lies became unclaimed, I very much agree that deity would be a major frontrunner in claiming it by virtue of their actions. That works both ways, though. The attempts by multiple deities to seize the portfolios would increase the energy expended in the process of preventing any of them from doing so.Not if the deity is smart. The ones in competition are going to be spending great amounts of energy against each other; all the third party has to do is add just enough pressure against the frontrunner and they can no longer outmatch competitors and fight off the good deity. Once another deity becomes the frontrunner, he (or one of his allies) then shifts pressure on them....and so on. A delicate game, and its doubtful one that could be continued indefinately. But done right it can easily be worth the effort, and you never know what'll happen further down the line.... It might not require much direct conflict if they are able to prevent the contenders from reaching any sort of agreement as to which portfolios would go to whom, and such an agreement could very well come into effect between at least Shar and Bane, Bane and Mask, Shar and Set, or any number of other pairings. Given the sudden rank codependence of all gods intermediate and below upon the greater gods, there are only so many whose presence could conceivably matter in the competition, and the ones guarding the portfolios are in a fundamentally worse position to begin with: the ones who'd want to claim the portfolios can simply set the matter aside until it is convenient to do otherwise while the ones trying to keep them from the portfolios must remain vigilant against attempts to circumvent their efforts, which reduces the effort/attention they can spare for other things. This in turn leaves them more susceptible against the indirect means that the opposing gods are equally capable of employing to make the Love and Justice trio suffer on other fronts and thus loosen their hold on the portfolios they wish to bar access to.The game of gods is a complicated one, no doubt. All sorts of factors could come into play...but the problem evil deities have is anyone worthy of being a competitor is quite likely to stabyou in the back for your portfolios. So teaming up against good deities blocking you can easily now render you overextended with one of your competitors now in a position to exploit it. And by the way.....Love, Justice, and Dawn...three greater deities of good working in tandem. A precedent you overextend by attempting to portray as feasible in every case, given that all the examples in which portfolios are claimed by deicide involve similar interests/portfolios to begin with or at least a lack of conflict between the portfolios the victor already holds and the ones they end up assuming. Other than that, it comes down to mortals ascending on the basis of the slain god's portfolio's alone. There is no indication that it would be so cut and dried in cases where there are portfolio conflicts.Deities in direct opposition tend to play their games out on Faerun, not the outer planes. Tyr destroyed a god of anarchy, and that portfolio remains unclaimed. Not claiming an unwanted portfolio seems the most likely scenario; Tyr is certainly not going to become a liar any more than he became an anarchist. However....and here I'll repeat myself, because you seem to have ignored or dismissed these points....nothing in Lathander's portfolio opposes intrigue, and Lathander himself has enganged in intrigue (the most glaring example being the Dawn Cataclysm). If he's planning a new Dawn Crusade, intrigue would be a definate boon; possibly claiming that would help him succeed where once he failed. But if he didn't want it, passing on a portfolio to another is something gods have been noted as doing on many occasions, and when their allies are reeling from a planar apocalypse seems a good time to feed them power at the expense of an enemy. Intrigue goes very well with Nobility....and Siamorphe serves Sune, and formerly served Tyr. Intrigue could be interpreted as plotting without changing the essential nature of the portfolio one bit, and if Tyr saved Hoar and is trying to cement the bond, plotting and revenge/retribution are two great tastes that taste great together, especially since making sure that all punishments are preferrably both fitting and sweetend by irony usually requires a good deal of plotting and setting up. Nothing stops Sune claiming illusion; she may focus on all the pleasure and wonder illusions can create, but that's no different than her focusing on the good sides of love. Or she could pass it on to Lliira or Sharess, both of whom could create much joy/happiness/celebration or lust/sensual pleasure (respectively) using illusions. Sharess seems especially fitting for it, since she tends to the "now" and momentary pleasures rather than the solid or permanent (i.e. the "real"). Murder wouldn't be claimed by any of the three....but I think there wouldn't be any trouble getting together with Kelemvor, who as death and the lord of the dead, already has a claim on murder (which is, after all, just a specific type of death). Kelemvor certainly would have no problem with gaining power at Cyrics expense. The good deities would most likely avoid and discard, generally speaking, deception, lies, and strife. It's not simply a matter of saying, "Hey, that's my theme!", though conceptual proximity could very well provide an edge in the effort of claiming it. No, I agree that it comes down to proving that it's their 'theme'... the thing is, though, there are gods who have been basically doing just that through their own actions and the behavior/beliefs they cultivate in mortals for centuries on end. Whether they did so exclusively to obtain the portfolios is irrelevant. If anything godhood would be a whole hell of a lot easier if you could just call dibs on the portfolios of whoever you just killed no matter how far removed your area of influence, personal philosophies, and previous actions are from theirs. All the good guys have to do then is band together and kill a bad guy here and there to block or even sanitize the portfolios that jerk held before the remaining bad guys can exploit/claim and there you have it: Murder in and of itself, or whatever alternative portfolio you want to rewrite or keep off limits, no longer carries the prospect of divine reward. So Hatred and similar portfolios might compel murder anyway... but that's ok! We just need to kill Bane and rewrite Hatred as Righteous Indignation. Certainly they can manage that about as easily they managed offing Cyric.Although you wouldn't know it from looking at Cyric, killing opposing deities is not easy. Deity deaths have historically not been a dime a dozen. It is very difficult, and most deities prefer to play things out on Faerun, especially since focusing solely on god-on-god politics is (a)one of the causes of the Time of Troubles, something now one wants to happen again and (b)a good way for your church to decline, which thanks to the Time of Troubles hurts your power, and thus self defeating. And by the way, I'm not claiming you can turn a portfolio into it's opposite, or warp it beyond recognition, or anything near to that. Tyr isn't anarchy, Helm isn't magic; a deity can discard the portfolio of someone they defeated but dont want. But like I showed above...just because an evil deity now has illusions doesn't mean that good deities can't claim it. Simularly with intrigue, and as I said murder can be dealt with. That's three portfolios no longer in evil hands and a greater evil deity dead; not a bad days work for the forces of good. That's what it comes done to here: headstarts. I'm not counting anything in the equation, be it responsibility for the god's death, natural synergy between portfolios and past/present actions, or even former rulership over the portfolios that the dead god had, as anything but ways of facilitating the process of claiming portfolios. Any of them can be countered by the others.Its an interesting opinion, but there's simply absolutely no precedent for a deity receiving a portfolio from a dead deity because they're "better" at that portfolio against the wishes of the deity which claimed it through conquest. Sure, on their own portfolios. And even then it's far more frequently a matter of implementation rather than altering the nature of the portfolio itself. Do you honestly think that all the benevolent deities really have to do is kill their nasty counterparts, at which point it's a simple matter of spontaneously revising their portfolios to be more benign?If you kill the deity, the portolio is yours unless you discard it. If after claiming it you choose to alter it, thats up to you. But no, I dont think you can completely warp a portfolio beyond recognition, and the examples I gave (using illusions for pleasure, granting Goddess of Nobility intrigue) affirm the spirit of the portfolio while divorcing those portfolios from evil connotations. Another example is Tempus, who spares Garagos out of loathing for the aspects of war he'd be forced to assume if he were to slay him. That wouldn't be an issue at all if putting his own spin on the Reaver's portfolios was sufficient to cleanse all that he finds distasteful about them.That is an in-game "sage's speculation" as to why he spared Garagos; that's not canon. Considering you dont absorb an aspect like that unless you want to (Tyr isn't anarchy; Eilistraee specifically chose to absorb Vhareun, meaning she could have chosen not to), I'd call the sages wrong on this one. Yet another is Mystra and the Shadow Weave, particularly the mention made of the threat it could pose to her remaining humanity should she absorb it, which again wouldn't be an issue to speak of if avoiding its consequences were as simple as saying "well, I'll just preside over this in my own way." Too bad this point got retconned since they've said that Mystra was goddess of the whole Weave, which included the shadow; it was a quirk that she could block access to it like she could the regular Weave while Shar could. Not necessarily. Given the limitations that portfolios tend to have on divine perspective as mentioned in Prince of Lies, it may well have taken a mortal's clarity to warp the portfolio in question to the extent it was.Possible...but then none of the portfolios I've mentioned as being up for tweaks are being changed anywhere near as much as Moander's set of portfolios. Tyr & Co. would have some by virtue of killing Cyric, other gods would exert theirs through natures complimentary to the portfolios and a history of perpetuating actions and beliefs that facilitate the portfolios' emergence in the Planes and on the Prime. There has never been some sort of divine legal proceeding where the merits on everyone's claim on the possessions of the deceased played out like some sort of Ao-led twisted little will reading. As interesting as the concept is, you're coming up with it out of whole cloth, whereas claiming portolios through conquest and theft, passing on portfolios, and leaving incompatible portfolios unclaimed has precedent in how things have gone down. Cyric hasn't changed any portfolios to suit his ideas in the sense Finder did. He uses the portfolios he has as sees fit, but he hasn't altered the intrinsic nature of the portfolios he gained. And giving illusion to Sune or one of her handmaidens, or giving intrigue to Siamorphe, would in no way alter the intrinsic nature of those portfolios. Giving Murder to Death certainly doesn't change its nature. They sure are, but they don't have to care about their lessers in the planes and they don't have to try anywhere near as hard to protect the Prime from the effects of the Spellplague. The likes of Lathander, Tyr, and Sune will by their natures be compelled to shelter a far greater number of people than their evil counterparts, who need only concern themselves with their own following (and even that to the bare minimum require to maintain their present level of power if depending on how much benefit they hope to derive from the portfolios they're vying for.)The greater deities dont have to spend power to keep the intermediates/lessers/demi's alive, they just have to keep their divine realms together so that the intermediates/lessers/demi's aren't wiped like Savras or astraled like Azuth and Velsharoon. Likewise with the evil deities, who aren't stupid enough to leave themselves alone while the greater good deities keep all their allies; those intermediate/lesser/demi allies add up to significant power. Not that there wont be casualties....but I wouldn't say either good nor evil are expending greater amounts of power neccesarily just because of their alignments. And the 'even so...' portion of that response was more an exercise of self-indulgence on my part, an anticipatory consideration (not necessarily relating to anything you'd personally go on to say) as to why they wouldn't go back and kill him after imprisoning him, than anything else.Conceeded; for the near future after the imprisonment, he's safe from a return visit. I find it pretty ironic, since not only will he fortify, but the longer he's given to actually become used to godhood and how to play the game, the bigger a threat I see him becoming anyway.
Crazygx34 10-19-07, 02:44 AM	Sgtanjay & Vasyek you should make a book together on the case.:) Writing this on my computer will have take me 2 hour because I'm not really fast on tap on keyboard touch. I have not read yours post yet it will have take me 30 minutes but I'm sure your right. Don't take it personnal because I'm french and what I read in english take me twice the time. And just imagine all the grammar I will have make writing this...I remark that your post a relativly long Vasyek & sgtangay. I prefer it shorth and simple. generally I skip too long post, but it just my opinion and maybe some people like that..:rolleyes:
Vasyek 10-19-07, 06:54 AM	Not the same deal at all. Read Grumbar's description; he's tailor made for the contract portfolio. He's already got changelessness and oaths, and I think he's more the sort to disdain the reliance upon contracts as inherently backward. People who are as good as their word don't need them, and people who aren't will either ignore them altogether or pervert their intentions as far as they can get away with, which will over time establish precedent and progressively undermine the value of the contract as any form of insurance. Gargauth is a devil lord; he was undoubtedly using contracts as a means to power before he even was a deity. Gargauth would also fit bureaucracy. Ok listing his portfolios as are relevant: Betrayal, Ill Counsel, Self-Serving Advisors, Political Puppet-Masters, Power-Brokers. For Contracts, I can see a complimentary relationship between it and Power-Brokers, that and Ill Counsel since that's probably how the damned things get signed a lot of the time anyway. However, I don't think Betrayal and Contracts particularly mesh; the whole point of devil's contracts is so that people screw themselves into service, so you can sidestep the threat to credibility that betrayal poses from the start. There's also the whole Puppet-Master deal, which thrives on a lack of awareness on the part of the manipulated that doesn't mesh too well with the dawning realization and horrified acquiescence that devil's contracts tend to entail. Then there's Self-Serving Advisors schtick, which also works chiefly by weaseling your way into positions of power through (ideally) undiscovered abuse of people's trust rather than pushing them around through contractual obligation. As for Bureaucracy, I think it's fairly obvious from his portfolios that he's more the delegation and subversion type than the one crunching the numbers and doing the grunt work. Hell no doubt has a thriving bureaucracy, but that doesn't seem to have much bearing on how Gargauth has distinguished himself. As for Tempus, the explanation that he doesn't kill Garagos because he doesn't want berserker rage is just in-world "sages speculation"; its hardly fact. It also contradicts how such things have happened in the past; portfolios have changed deities, but only when they accepted portfolios they took from their opponents. Ok, so your point is that he could've killed Garagos and not accepted the portfolio, I take it? True enough, but what of the god who gets it because he declined it? Would they be exempt from its influence provided they weren't opponents of Garagos? If so, what's to stop Tempus from pulling a Tymora as per the Finder case and pass the portfolios on in altered form to one of his most loyal and distinguished followers? Why wouldn't he have done that generations ago? Tyr certainly didn't become chaotic because he killed Valygar Thirdborn. This is because he wasn't obliged to accept the portfolio of anarchy when he killed him. Same deal; it's rather telling that, even if he would have risked being tainted by the portfolio if he were to assume it himself, he didn't pull a Finder of his own (or similar) and pass it on as, say, the Cycle of Social Progress (Reasoned Contention leading to Legal Reform.) Notice, however, that anarchy is another portfolio that's gone vacant.... In a semantic sort of way, perhaps. I'm sure Rebellion and Strife don't even begin to cover it. Which doesn't change the fact that a deity could set out to become the deity of transmutation, or evocation, or abjuration, etc, if they wished. There's the question of what the deity would have to go through to successfully generate a new portfolio, however. Depending on the investment required, it could be a rather prohibitive task on a number of levels. Well, if a previously existant deity attempted to claim a portfolio like those examples (the magic schools), another deity with the possibility of having that portfolio would almost assuredly decide to compete, at which point they would have to spend time and resources to be "the" deity of that aspect in order to be recognized as possessor of that portfolio Depends on the deities who have a shot at the portfolioand who they have supporting them. Say Sune decides she'd like to add Enchantment to her resume, and say Bane says Hell no, it's all mine. Who do you think relevent deities like Mystra and Azuth are liable to side with? To be fair I suppose I'll drag it out a bit more: at this point Sune seems to be the favorite as the new god(dess) of Enchantment, so Shar steps in and defers her claim to Bane, figuring no one would consent to her claiming it and she'd be happier if the portfolio was in the hands of a bastard like him. Then comes Oghma, who'd rather Sune have it than see it the hands of an enemy of art and free expression like Bane, and Milil agrees with him. I'll leave off there, because I'm tired of this back and forth already, but what I'm driving at here is that there are only so many deities that really have a shot at a given portfolio, some of these deities will have more advocates than others, and circumstances can be such that even a rival might defer their claim to assure that some other candidate they hate more doesn't get it. To believe that nothing like this to have ever occurred in all the centuries that these gods have been around, is asking a bit much here. (I recall repeatedly referring to this process in previous posts). I suppose you mean when you predicted a standstill between evil gods vying for Cyric's leavings because none of them can reach a functional agreement with the other? Sorry, still not buying it. Shar and Bane wouldn't have much trouble arriving at an even split of the portfolios between them; alternatively, she probably wouldn't have much trouble goading Talos into taking a shot a Lathander with or without any compromise that they might pretend to reach regarding the portfolios. Hell, she might even be able to balance the both of them, though I think that's a stretch. In some cases (for example, anarchy), you may not have direct competition, but claiming that portfolio will require direct conflict with another existing, and powerful, deity because that deity has a portfolio in opposition. So the question becomes: Is the portfolio worth what I'll have to do to get it? In many cases, the answer is no. Apply this to the spell schools. What portfolios are opposed to Transmutation? How about Conjuration? A third party interfering in the conflicts of several deities they dislike who are competing with each other is a regular part of deity politics; it just so happens that in this case, the deities would be competing for a portfolio, instead of which church dominates a region, or some simular goal. With Cyric out of the picture, there are only three people they really have to worry about: Talos, Shar, and Bane. Maybe Mask/Beshaba too if either of them somehow become a greater deities between the current date (DR) and the time following Mystra's death. Either way, for the lot contesting the portfolio blockage it's a pretty manageable number as far as working out/maintaining alliances go, even for evil gods, considering that the problem members: Talos and Beshaba (in all honesty I'm just throwing her a bone here because I like her, she'll never make it to greater) are unlikely to establish an effective counter-collaboration if they don't buy into the temporary alliance. Also, the portfolio wouldn't be sealed because in most cases a powerful portfolio worth the time, energy, and resources will eventually be claimed; its a delaying action, not some sort of "portfolio imprisonment", which the word "sealed" implies. It's only temporary in the sense that it won't last because they'll either end up being overpowered by the opposition on this front or they'll be forced to abandon the effort by threats on another. They're still doing everything they can to prevent the portfolios from disrupt current and future events, and the fact that they're realistic about their chances of being able to do so permanently doesn't mean the outcome they hope for the most would be just that. Really, is Cyric not imprisoned then because they plan to release him in a thousand years? I specifically recall mentioning that a portfolio can be stolen. Maybe you did. A term search says not in those words, but I'll have to run over page three more closely to be sure. Bane stole fear when Cyric was significantly weakened/disoriented. No, no, no, and no. Xvim stole Tyranny/Hatred from Cyric when he was significantly weakened/disoriented. Neither Cyric, Bane, nor Xvim ever had any prior ownership of the Fear portfolio, it's something Bane gained, seemingly spontaneously, when he returned to life. {QUOTE](I recall saying in my initial comments about Cyric that he got to steal from the God of Thieves).[/QUOTE] Oh, is that it? The only part of your initial post that I really concerned myself with was the portfolio deal, and Cyric stealing from Mask bit was in the list of reasons why people don't like Cyric. My bad. I would definately call stealing a portfolio special effort, I'd call it a special effort if the theft in question required a special effort. Cyric fleecing Mask of Intrigue in that situation was about as rigorous and demanding as picking his nose would've been; Mask was all doped up on the magic of the Cyrinishad, and Godsbane had turned flimsy and pallid, little more than a normal short sword. And for the record, it's pretty much the same thing in Xvim's case. No special effort, just him accidentally ending up free during the sacking of Zhentil Keep and having the right pedigree to make a swift, uncontested grab for the portfolios at the right moment in time. and if your scenario is that Shar would lurk in darkness and wait till Cyric was defeated, then run in and deal the deathblow in order to claim his portfolios, then we very much agree that is entirely possible. But that wouldn't stop Lathander, Sune, and Tyr from killing Cyric, because Shar being ready to do that would be a secret of the Goddess of Secrets; Lathander, Sune, and Tyr would never know till it was too late. They wouldn't know for certain, but they'd know Cyric didn't pull this off alone and they'd know that the list of deities that would be willing to conspire with him on this and be of any use in blindsiding Mystra is a fantastically short one. Honestly I can't even think of anyone else who'd work here besides Shar, but assuming they can, they'd probably keep her in mind as a prospective worst-case scenario. That being the case, the possibility of her preempting them in such a way would probably factor into the process deciding what to do with Cyric. "I helped Cyric so I get his portfolios" is hardly more valid than those actually claiming them directly from his divine essence. Just one line up you were talking about sneakily secretive Shar is and you're telling me you didn't catch on to the sort of strings that would inevitably come attached to any of her 'helpful' overtures? Ok, I'll explain: the example of her offering Cyric the Shadow Weave was presented under the assumption that her getting her claws into him in the process was so implicit that it didn't need to be mentioned in the first place. As for "past claim".....what past claim? All those portfolios, minus intrigue (from Mask), and lies/deception/illusion (from Leira) were from the Dead Three. The Dead Three got them from Jergal, the ancient Lord of the End of Everything. Nope. Murder, Lies, Hatred, and Illusion were all Shar's at the time of Netheril. I'd add Intrigue in there as well, but since you seem to consider Anarchy to be separate from Strife and Rebellion, I doubt you'll be too impressed by my conflating it with Trickery, Treachery, and Seduction. Also Betrayal, for redundancy's sake. Considering how often portfolios are snatched like objects, they do appear to act like objects in many or even most cases. It's so trite that I'm really aching to dispute this further (no offense intended if you're into the idea of portfolios as baubles you can grab), but given that I've recalled that Cyric describes the three white threads he plucks off his heart before trading it for Malik's in Crucible as the legacies of Leira, Bhaal, and Bane, I'll simply concede that there's a pretty good chance you're right. And a claimed portfolio is definately a held possession; a deity could speak nothing but lies, have all priests say nothing but lies, but they would actually have to confront Cyric, directly or indirectly, to actually take the lies portfolio. Now if lies became unclaimed, I very much agree that deity would be a major frontrunner in claiming it by virtue of their actions. Nowhere at any point in this discussion did I claim that a portfolio could be stolen from a living deity through acting in a manner that promotes the portfolio; rather, I posed it as a consideration that could potentially be equal in weight to being the one behind the god's death. Thinking about it further, though, I'll call shenanigans on the dichotomy you're trying to establish here. To go with your example of the lying god with the lying clergy, if that becomes something they are known/feared/reviled for to a significant enough extent, it will necessarily result in an indirect confrontation over the portfolio regardless of the god's intentions. It could be that the lying god is lying all the time because it furthers the portfolios he currently has, or maybe he just likes the act of lying and isn't particularly concerned with the portfolio itself... doesn't matter. If he and his lying clergy become infamous enough, people are going to associate them with lying and people who think that's a good thing are going to be tempted to cast their lot with the liar's lying faith. When liars start flocking to the liar god out of adoration for his lies, or more reasonably, an environment that celebrates something that they personally are inclined towards for whatever reason, then those are liars that Cyric might have had a shot at bringing into the fold if that damned liar god wasn't telling lies. Followers being a source of power, Cyric is losing power to the liar god; when Cyric's losing power, his grip over his portfolios lessens as well. Worst case scenario for him, the liar god keeps it up and is successful enough to get a shot at his portfolio. Not sure whether you'd end up saying something about him not having take it, but just to cover my bases since you seem to be throwing it around all over, I'll take the opportunity to stress that even assuming the 'worst case scenario', I'm not stating the liar god would be forced to grab the portfolio. Not if the deity is smart. The ones in competition are going to be spending great amounts of energy against each other; all the third party has to do is add just enough pressure against the frontrunner and they can no longer outmatch competitors and fight off the good deity. Once another deity becomes the frontrunner, he (or one of his allies) then shifts pressure on them....and so on. You're just trading expenditure of divine energy or some other measure of base power here for a dramatic increase in scrutiny and portfolio-prevention related scheming, which just ends up making it sound that much more like a full-time job. A delicate game, and its doubtful one that could be continued indefinately. But done right it can easily be worth the effort, and you never know what'll happen further down the line... If done right... Hard to do it right against gods like Shar or Mask, pretending for the moment that I think of Mask as some sort of smooth operator. If done wrong, it explodes in their face, failing to prevent the portfolios from being claimed and leaving them worse off than they would have been if they hadn't tried this in the first place. ...but the problem evil deities have is anyone worthy of being a competitor is quite likely to stabyou in the back for your portfolios. Not if they're smart, and particularly not in this case if they have a shot at some portfolios but not others. Bane, for instance, is not going to be getting Intrigue or Illusions any time soon, he probably doesn't even particularly want them. Shar could go for Strife and Murder, but she's going to get the most mileage out of the ones she has the best shot at anyway and probably wouldn't mind giving those two up to Bane to increase the chances of getting anything. The most dangerous competitors are going to realize that some increase in power is better than none, and the resulting imbalance between them and the failed guardians of the portfolios is a gain in itself. They're going to exploit the good deity's efforts to alienate them/the others, perhaps even humor it superficially, and tear the portfolios from them when they're most bogged down in their futile effort. And by the way.....Love, Justice, and Dawn...three greater deities of good working in tandem. Notice how I said the Love & Justice trio there? Guess not. I left out Dawn, or Renewal, or Birth, because I didn't feel like typing out three identifying portfolios. Deities in direct opposition tend to play their games out on Faerun, not the outer planes. Do you mean through their followers? Your examples seem to suggest otherwise so my next question will assume you don't. Namely: What are you basing that on? Cyric had it out with Mystra first in Pandemonium (one cosmology ago), then in Dweomerheart. Tyr was an interloper deity when he had his spat with the Thirdborn, so he basically didn't have much of a choice, who knows where Tyche was when Moander pulled his internal consumption (no, seriously, where?), and besides those cases there aren't many other examples to cite unless you pad them with face-offs during the Time of Troubles (which prove nothing.) Tyr destroyed a god of anarchy, and that portfolio remains unclaimed. Not claiming an unwanted portfolio seems the most likely scenario; Tyr is certainly not going to become a liar any more than he became an anarchist. Ok, I really want to know where I said that inheriting a portfolio upon committing deicide was compulsory. The closest thing I can think of is the reference to Tempus and Garagos, but even then I never said he had to claim the portfolio. I sort of went into it above, but I'll clarify what I'm taking from the theory: killing Garagos would free the portfolios, Tempus would not take the portfolios because he doesn't approve of them/fears how they might affect him, Tempus could either then a) block the portfolios and take a hit that way, or b) let someone else claim them. B would be a pretty good idea if they could duck the influence that way, he could re-tailor the portfolios in such a way as to minimize the berserker baggage, and he had candidates he trusts, which he does (or did, depending on who doesn't make it to 4E.) Better yet, if aping the Finder process is so simple/effective he should just nominate a favored mortal worshiper or proxy as the heirs to Garagos' (revised) portfolios. In that case, not only does he have the portfolios patched up to meet his specs and in the hands of someone reliable, but since they're a servitor deity, he's getting another helping hand under his direct authority. Obviously he hasn't done this, though. I venture the reason for this is that the prospect for portfolios exerting such influence is not so narrow as to merely plague the enemy of the god who lost them, but rather anyone who might claim them. In that case it becomes clear why he keeps Garagos alive: he's already drastically weakened and for the most part dormant (or at least he was.) If the risks surrounding the portfolios can't be circumvented and the cost of simply leaving it unclaimed is the need to stave off attempts to claim the portfolios, which would be quite appealing to Cyric and Talos (among others), then leaving them in the loser's hands is the best option. However....and here I'll repeat myself, because you seem to have ignored or dismissed these points....nothing in Lathander's portfolio opposes intrigue, and Lathander himself has enganged in intrigue (the most glaring example being the Dawn Cataclysm). If he's planning a new Dawn Crusade, intrigue would be a definate boon; possibly claiming that would help him succeed where once he failed. Mostly forgot to address it amid all the other stuff. Lathander trying to claim portfolios that would obviously facilitate overtures that his buddies have had pretty awful experiences with in the past is a wonderful way for their little group to get caught up with internal disputes. He's really living proof that not all the threats to the lives/futures are ones that bear them any ill will, and at the very least Tyr's not about to forget that. Besides that, the congruence between Secrets and Intrigue is such that he'd essentially be offering Shar a window into his church, as far as divine scrutiny goes. Intrigue goes very well with Nobility....and Siamorphe serves Sune, and formerly served Tyr. Siamorphe is a demigod: it doesn't matter what portfolios they have, they're not exclusively theirs. That's how both Moander and Myrkul could have Corruption right before they bought it. There's really no difference between trusting a portfolio to a demigod and just blocking it off while leaving it unclaimed, unless the demigod becomes a lesser/intermediate before anyone can take it (and those no longer exist.) Intrigue could be interpreted as plotting without changing the essential nature of the portfolio one bit, and if Tyr saved Hoar and is trying to cement the bond, plotting and revenge/retribution are two great tastes that taste great together, especially since making sure that all punishments are preferrably both fitting and sweetend by irony usually requires a good deal of plotting and setting up. Hoar's also a demigod, but I'll ignore that for a second. Tyr handing Intrigue over to Hoar as the process of coming up with ingenious ways to avenge transgressions and whatnot becomes an issue when their rather contrasting views on things like 'acceptable levels of vindictiveness/cruelty' come to the fray. It's not all that big a deal compared to what could happen with it, but I don't think Tyr would really want to encourage the sorts of disputes that would likely arise. Nothing stops Sune claiming illusion; she may focus on all the pleasure and wonder illusions can create, but that's no different than her focusing on the good sides of love. Yeah that one can go through, almost. Except even you've conceded the potential for an opposing deity's portfolio to influence the one who seized it from them. Sune's liable to pass on Cyric germs. Murder wouldn't be claimed by any of the three....but I think there wouldn't be any trouble getting together with Kelemvor, who as death and the lord of the dead, already has a claim on murder (which is, after all, just a specific type of death). Kelemvor certainly would have no problem with gaining power at Cyrics expense. Seeing as he hates murder on the asinine premise that people can die before their time, I think he'd prefer Death and Murder to remain distinct. In any case, they'd just be compounding their troubles by traipsing over to the Fugue, or the Shadowfell, or wherever Kelemvor ended up for the purposes of portfolio transaction. It's a predictable move for one (perfect cue for an ambush, really), possibly neighboring Shar's neck of the woods besides (if they both end up in the Shadowfell), it takes them from their own strongholds and therefore relies on the promise that their wards and servitors can hold the fort, and he could very well just end up flipping them off and telling them to pass it on to Hoar or whoever. He's supposed to be all about his job lately, which is first and foremost presiding over the kingdom of the dead, and even if he were willing to reintegrate Murder into Death he might decline to do so in the hopes of minimizing the incentive for the portfolio's hopeful claimants to defile the dead/harass the shades in his care. Then there's the question of what's actually involved in the process of merging portfolios and how its requirements might further discourage the effort to begin with. Although you wouldn't know it from looking at Cyric, killing opposing deities is not easy. Deity deaths have historically not been a dime a dozen. It is very difficult, So difficult, in fact, that you posit that the three slayers of Cyric would be able to effectively shoulder the burden of guarding/redistributing the portfolios in the aftermath, among assorted other urgent duties and tasks that they must perform. If one of them's crippled/significantly injured/dead the plan's shot to hell right then and there, as trying to bar access to portfolios or whatever else they have in mind simply isn't worth the risk of a second casualty when everyone who wants a piece of what Cyric left behind comes calling, so I can only assume that your predicted outcome leaves the three of them more or less unharmed in any significant way and that they could reasonably expect that result when they were considering whether or not to take him out. If so, then why not dispose of Bane as well? He's proven himself a liability to the pantheon's status quo/general welfare through his theft of the tablets, and killing him would not only allow them to claim (seems dubious, but they can probably pull something off with Fear and I've already said what I think they could do with Hatred if portfolio alteration is anywhere near as simple and painless an affair as you think it is) or block off his portfolios but herald the collapse of his realm/the possible death or displacement (ala Velsharoon) of the wee little evil gods milling around within it, which leads to yet more portfolios and thus more opportunities for striking evil connotations of divine forces from the record. And by the way, I'm not claiming you can turn a portfolio into it's opposite, or warp it beyond recognition, or anything near to that. And I wasn't trying to imply you were. Hatred into Righteous Indignation, or let's amend that to Righteous Fury so it at least has something of the same intensity, is about as much of a stretch as turning Rot/Corruption into Cycle of Life and the Transformation of Art. If that example doesn't work for you let's make it something more directly equivalent: like the Cycle of Relationships (Anger to Reconciliation.) just because an evil deity now has illusions doesn't mean that good deities can't claim it. True enough, but that's not the issue. The issue is the consequences of doing so. You can say that Illusions aren't inherently evil, or Intrigue, or whatever else, and you'd be right. So what, though? How many portfolios are inherently evil? Not Moander's Rot, possibly Corruption depending on the since in which they mean it (if not his, though definitely Gargauth's), not Strife, not Lies, arguably not Hatred depending on the cause/mode of expression, not Destruction, not Loss, not Pain, not Poison, not Darkness, not... well that's enough I think. Misgivings around them persist nonetheless; being in the care of twisted, malevolent beings for decades or centuries can mean you're inheriting more than the portfolios. This could be a matter of actual corruption, or simply the loathing and stigma associated with it. Its an interesting opinion, but there's simply absolutely no precedent for a deity receiving a portfolio from a dead deity because they're "better" at that portfolio against the wishes of the deity which claimed it through conquest. And I'll repeat that the conclusion you seem to have reached, that the killers of a god are automatically the first ones to decide what happens with the loser's portfolios, is a questionable one. It's merely an assumption on the basis of cases in which successful practitioners of deicide claimed the loser's portfolios, without consideration for other factors that are common to the incidents. Too bad this point got retconned since they've said that Mystra was goddess of the whole Weave, which included the shadow; Doesn't change the fact that the example heeded the prospect of portfolios altering a deity's nature. Even if they did sidestep the issue with a retcon, and I'd like to see your source for that, the fact that they even considered it one to begin with speaks volumes. Possible...but then none of the portfolios I've mentioned as being up for tweaks are being changed anywhere near as much as Moander's set of portfolios. True enough. I was, however, addressing a rather specific point: the assumption that because Finder managed it, they must be able to pull off something similar as well. There has never been some sort of divine legal proceeding where the merits on everyone's claim on the possessions of the deceased played out like some sort of Ao-led twisted little will reading. Who said anything about this being led by Ao? As I envision it, it's strictly a contest (read, contest, not legal proceeding or formal debate) between deities unless it gets too far out of hand. As interesting as the concept is, you're coming up with it out of whole cloth, whereas claiming portolios through conquest and theft, passing on portfolios, and leaving incompatible portfolios unclaimed has precedent in how things have gone down. As far as I'm concerned, raising the issue as a potential determinant comes from the assumptions that I'm not making here: namely, that killing a god supersedes any other possible considerations surrounding the issue of who ends up first in line to reap the benefits from their death (or reject them.) Giving Murder to Death certainly doesn't change its nature. So I've already covered this above to some extent, but I find I can't resist given the rather interesting way in which you phrased this. What precedent covers giving portfolios to other portfolios? The greater deities dont have to spend power to keep the intermediates/lessers/demi's alive, they just have to keep their divine realms together so that the intermediates/lessers/demi's aren't wiped like Savras or astraled like Azuth and Velsharoon So you say, but I wonder where their universal demotion to demi-god status fits into this claim. Even if it is the case, they need to make sure their realm is up to accommodating them in a number of ways, such as the laying/revision of hierarchies in some cases, detecting potential conflicts between their tenants and taking steps to minimize them, assigning duties, ironing out agreements, etc. And that's taking for granted that all of these poor bastards made it to the realms of Greater Gods on their own. Likewise with the evil deities, who aren't stupid enough to leave themselves alone while the greater good deities keep all their allies; those intermediate/lesser/demi allies add up to significant power. Or as corpses, those intermediate/lesser/demi-gods add up to a ridiculously expansive portfolio base. I think it's liable to end up a compromise between the two for them and I don't think that's a compromise that the benevolent deities can, in good conscience, make.
Lykor 10-19-07, 11:49 AM	Am I the only one who notices that not only did WotC ignore the "lore" established by the ToT, they are also ignoring the "lore" (and I use the word lightly in both cases) that they have JUST created? Case in point #1: One of the major goals for the ToT was to tie a god's strength in with the # of worshippers. They have blatently ignored this with their WotSQ series, where Lloth goes in a corner and meditates for a couple years and comes back as a greater diety. I mean, if the loner queen of the drow can do this, why doesn't every other god? Why doesn't Tyr say, "Hey Torm, watch my stuff for a while while I go meditate. Then when I come back we can swap." I am pretty sure there were other motivations for creating the WotSQ series, but right now all I can think of is "blatant plot device for making Lloth a greater diety while axing the rest of her pantheon". #2: One of the goals of killing Mystra #3 was "she was too powerful" -direct quote there. But she isn't portrayed as the most powerful diety: Cyric is. He has -or had- most or parts of the portfolios of 5 dieties: Bane, Bhall, Myrkul, Lliera, and Mask. He rampages around the Realms largely unchecked by the other dieties, and manages to survive despite having 0 friends. He kills off multiple other gods and gets away scott free. When he is finally caught, he is too powerful to kill so he is imprisoned for 1000 years. Call me cynical, but I will lay decent money on him being out within 5 years when the 4e conversion hatred dies down, 10 years --the approximate relase date for 5e--tops. After the Trial trilogy, she doesn't even threaten other dieties with porfolio disenfranchisement, let alone kill a god. #3: The designers wanted to cut down on the influence of gods within the Realms. So, by the actions of a god(s), they destroy the Weave and unleash a spellplague to kill casters. #4: Stealing pantheons. Didn't something with the ToT have to do with stealing pantheons? Or preventing the theft threreof? Is a pantheon like your car keys where you leave it laying around ocassionally and it gets stolen? If only there were a greater power that would keep track of pantheons in a pantheonic safe deposit box, maybe a tablet-looking thing with a cool name like "Tablets of Fate". #5: Drizzt and Eliminster surviving. See the wonderful thread here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=938167 Cmon, if you are going to destroy the Realms, at least be consistant with it.
msatran 10-19-07, 01:15 PM	Thank you for stating the biggest problem of all. Inconsistency. Even if there were a REASON why Tyr would marry Tymora, tymora would not go through with it. Even if Elminster Survives, so what? As much as I dislike his womanhopping habits, he'll be able to pick up where he left off if the Simbul dies. (Which would also suck.) What's wrong with keeping the cheesecake goddesses of the Forgotten Realms anyway? (The Seven Sisters?) Were they wearing too much clothing? There really isn't any depth to which these guys won't stoop. Theme is screaming, because they're forcing the Realms to fit 4e instead of working it in. Someone earlier made a comment about a Scalpel versus a hammer. What's wrong with a scalpel? Are people...oh...I don't know...afraid of doctors? You know, I really WISH the Doctor would show up in his TARDIS and fix this stuff. At least when his stuff is inconsistent, he's a time lord and has an excuse.
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 02:28 PM	One of the major goals for the ToT was to tie a god's strength in with the # of worshippers. They have blatently ignored this with their WotSQ series, where Lloth goes in a corner and meditates for a couple years and comes back as a greater diety. The implications were that Lolth's various avatars were out gathering new worshippers. The problem is that we never see any of that. One of the goals of killing Mystra #3 was "she was too powerful" -direct quote there. But she isn't portrayed as the most powerful diety: Cyric is. He has -or had- most or parts of the portfolios of 5 dieties: Bane, Bhall, Myrkul, Lliera, and Mask. He's a villain, that apparently makes all the difference. The designers wanted to cut down on the influence of gods within the Realms. So, by the actions of a god(s), they destroy the Weave and unleash a spellplague to kill casters. Apparently its' gods + casters. Drizzt and Eliminster surviving. See the wonderful thread here: They're not apparently :censored: (insert your insult of choice here). Elminster is an icon of the Realms and Drizzt is 90% of the Realm's cash base BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE LIKE DRIZZT.
Alediran 10-19-07, 02:53 PM	He's a villain, that apparently makes all the difference. Then why keep the villain and not the hero? Apparently its' gods + casters. Now we know the reason, the "genius" behind this idea loved to play fighter-type characters and always felt his/her characters where useless when compared to spellcasters. They're not apparently :censored: (insert your insult of choice here). Elminster is an icon of the Realms and Drizzt is 90% of the Realm's cash base BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE LIKE DRIZZT. The Seven sisters are icons of the realms, Mystra and the Weave are icons of the realms, then why destroy some icons while leaving others?
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 03:06 PM	Then why keep the villain and not the hero? I imagine because one is expected to be opposed by the hero and that it's an attempt to make the Realms seem more dangerous.
Alediran 10-19-07, 03:09 PM	I imagine because one is expected to be opposed by the hero and that it's an attempt to make the Realms seem more dangerous. I could make the realms the most dangerous place for a party* without changing anything. *Composed of evil characters :mage:
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 03:34 PM	Oddly, all of my PC meetings with Chosen go like this. http://shamusyoung.mu.nu/images/comic_lotr30.jpg
Stigger 10-19-07, 05:21 PM	That was good Charles... I enjoyed that one thoroughly...
Charles Phipps 10-19-07, 05:39 PM	It's from DM of the Rings. Very good comic about how player characters have no appreciation for fantasy ;-)
Stigger 10-19-07, 05:47 PM	Need to look that up then, thanks for the tip.
SgtAnjay 10-20-07, 03:19 AM	Far as Contract portfolio, you make very good points; Grumbar wouldn't necesarily seek out the contract portfolio, and Gargauth doesn't seem to use them, in contradiction to his nature as a devil lord (perhaps of manifestation of his break with them, or perhaps a manifestation of the reason for his break with them? Hmmmm). They remain, however, the best candidates for the portfolio, overall, but I think we agree they'd have to actually act to claim them; the portfolio wouldn't default to either just because they were the best suited for it. Ok, so your point is that he could've killed Garagos and not accepted the portfolio, I take it? True enough, but what of the god who gets it because he declined it? Would they be exempt from its influence provided they weren't opponents of Garagos? If so, what's to stop Tempus from pulling a Tymora as per the Finder case and pass the portfolios on in altered form to one of his most loyal and distinguished followers? Why wouldn't he have done that generations ago? Same deal; it's rather telling that, even if he would have risked being tainted by the portfolio if he were to assume it himself, he didn't pull a Finder of his own (or similar) and pass it on as, say, the Cycle of Social Progress (Reasoned Contention leading to Legal Reform.)The fact of the matter is, no one knows why Tempus lets Garagos lives, since other options do exist, and the concern that he doesn't want to be a berserker like Garagos is just a speculation that sages in the Realms put forth. Why you see it as the canon answer for Garagos' survival is beyond me. The lore states that Garagos was recorded as slain by Tempus, even though he is alive, and that a possible reason for this is that Garagos was indeed slain and his power taken by Tempus, but later ressurected in the manner of deities. If this is so, Tempus may let him live now simply because he knows he is unchallenged, and Garagos is no longer any kind of threat; meanwhile Garagos will do what he can do provoke war, which ends up benefitting Tempus anyway. In a semantic sort of way, perhaps. I'm sure Rebellion and Strife don't even begin to cover it.Valygar Thirdborn wasn't the god of Rebellion and Strife. He was a god of anarchy. So it was indeed a seperate. At any rate, believing that there should be no law or government (anarchy) may lead to strife and rebellion (or not, depending on the disposition of the anarchist), but is an independent concept. I'll leave off there, because I'm tired of this back and forth already, but what I'm driving at here is that there are only so many deities that really have a shot at a given portfolio, some of these deities will have more advocates than others, and circumstances can be such that even a rival might defer their claim to assure that some other candidate they hate more doesn't get it. To believe that nothing like this to have ever occurred in all the centuries that these gods have been around, is asking a bit much here.I'd agree it probably has happened, and that some portfolios were generated in such a manner. Others were attempted but proved too much trouble. And still others were never even attempted because it was clearly not worth the effort. It would be the exact same for any number of portfolios should they become "free" at the death of their previous holder. And the efforts of goodly deities to stop an evil deity from claiming a portfolio by keeping them fighting against themselves could indeed be thwarted by evil deities actually meeting up someplace like Cynosure and bargaining so that they can get on with the buisness of competing with the good deities and not themselves. Hence why I stated thost actions would be, at best, a temporary holding action and not a "sealing" of the portfolio. With Cyric out of the picture, there are only three people they really have to worry about: Talos, Shar, and Bane. Maybe Mask/Beshaba too if either of them somehow become a greater deities between the current date (DR) and the time following Mystra's death. Either way, for the lot contesting the portfolio blockage it's a pretty manageable number as far as working out/maintaining alliances go, even for evil gods, considering that the problem members: Talos and Beshaba (in all honesty I'm just throwing her a bone here because I like her, she'll never make it to greater) are unlikely to establish an effective counter-collaboration if they don't buy into the temporary alliance. Evil deities could work out a viable temporary alliance and do an end-run around a goodly alliance that way. The thing to remember is, though, Bane views Tyr, Lathander, Sune, and Shar as enemies; likewise, Shar would like to see all deities, Bane included, brought low. Both have no use for Talos. So maybe Bane and Shar could form an alliance; could they use that alliance against Talos (he's a candidate for strife, considering its a good prelude to destruction) and still effectively oppose a three-deity alliance of good deities? And if Bane or Shar see an opening allowing them to strike a blow against the other, letting them gain as much or more as allying to gain a portfolio would but with less risk since their "partner" is extended with either a rival (Talos) or the three good deities, why wouldn't they? They most likely would, and they both know it, so neither would be inclinced to extend themselves to the point where they are vulnerable to each other. Meanwhile, Lathander, Sune, and Tyr do not have to worry about being backstabbed, so they can extend themselves farther knowing that the other two would actually watch their backs. Really, is Cyric not imprisoned then because they plan to release him in a thousand years?Cyric is imprisoned. A portfolio would not be; they're not doing anything to the portfolio. They're just opposing evil deities who are in the process of claiming it, and opposing the evil deities is part of what the goodly deities already do. No, no, no, and no. Xvim stole Tyranny/Hatred from Cyric when he was significantly weakened/disoriented. Neither Cyric, Bane, nor Xvim ever had any prior ownership of the Fear portfolio, it's something Bane gained, seemingly spontaneously, when he returned to life.Ah, I did have that wrong.....the whole Xvim interregnum in Bane's forturnes always throws me off. Bit of an odd duck, as it were. I'm not surprised Bane was able to spot an unclaimed portfolio and grasp it, though the rapidity of it is rather disconcerting. I'd call it a special effort if the theft in question required a special effort. Cyric fleecing Mask of Intrigue in that situation was about as rigorous and demanding as picking his nose would've been; Mask was all doped up on the magic of the Cyrinishad, and Godsbane had turned flimsy and pallid, little more than a normal short sword. And for the record, it's pretty much the same thing in Xvim's case. No special effort, just him accidentally ending up free during the sacking of Zhentil Keep and having the right pedigree to make a swift, uncontested grab for the portfolios at the right moment in time.The entire reason Cyric created the Cyrinishad was to use it to gain more power. It was Mask perusing the Cyrinishad combined with Cyric destroying a major avatar of Mask which allowed Cyric to steal intrigue from Mask. So yes, Cyric did go through special effort, which weakened Mask, and allowed Cyric to steal his portfolio. As for Xvim, you're more or less correct there in that Xvim was mostly just the right guy in the right place at the right time; not that this is coincidence since he had a special hatred of Cyric. Since he was already in opposition of him he was particularly poised to take advantage when Cyric was weakened. To use a metaphore, Cyric was disoriented enough to leave the door open, and Xvim took the opportunity to run in and steal the goods. Just because Cyric was the one who left the door open doesn't mean Xvim isn't guilty of the act of theft. They wouldn't know for certain, but they'd know Cyric didn't pull this off alone and they'd know that the list of deities that would be willing to conspire with him on this and be of any use in blindsiding Mystra is a fantastically short one. Honestly I can't even think of anyone else who'd work here besides Shar, but assuming they can, they'd probably keep her in mind as a prospective worst-case scenario. That being the case, the possibility of her preempting them in such a way would probably factor into the process deciding what to do with Cyric.So Shar wouldn't be able to keep her secret plot secret, so the good gods would know that Shar helped Cyric. They would then figure out that Shar wanted them to kill Cyric (another of Shar's secrets), so that she could lie in wait till the last moment (aided, no doubt, by her status as goddess of secrets, dark, night, and possibly dungeons, depending on where this all takes place; as I recall, Cyric's specific domicile is a keep) and kill Cyric for his power. So the good gods thus would not kill Cyric because it would help Shar. This all hinges on how obvious it is that Shar is helping Cyric. Its certainly obvious to us; we were specifically told. Meanwhile, the players in this little scenario are, combined, the greater deities of dark, unrevealed secrets, forgetfulness, intrigue, lies, deception, and illusion. We're just going to have to disagree on this one. If those two deities can't keep an alliance hidden, and its obvious that the whole point of that secret alliance is Shar's secret wish to set up Cyric (her ally), so that she can secretly lie in wait and surprise everyone by killing and claiming her ally's power...well, then there's no point to Shar's existance at all since she can't keep her plots secret, and secret plots are her modus operandi. Just one line up you were talking about sneakily secretive Shar is and you're telling me you didn't catch on to the sort of strings that would inevitably come attached to any of her 'helpful' overtures? Ok, I'll explain: the example of her offering Cyric the Shadow Weave was presented under the assumption that her getting her claws into him in the process was so implicit that it didn't need to be mentioned in the first place.Getting her claws into other deities to absorb them is something Shar has been noted doing in the past. She nearly did it to Sharess. And maybe long term that ploy would've allowed her to just absorb Cyric's essense and power. But that isn't the same as this scenario, wherein just by providing Cyric aid or access to a powersource (Shar is not Goddess of the Shadow Weave, she merely is capable of providing access), she can claim his portfolios upon his death. Nope. Murder, Lies, Hatred, and Illusion were all Shar's at the time of Netheril. I'd add Intrigue in there as well, but since you seem to consider Anarchy to be separate from Strife and Rebellion, I doubt you'll be too impressed by my conflating it with Trickery, Treachery, and Seduction. Also Betrayal, for redundancy's sake.Well, first and foremost, I consider anarchy different from strife and rebellion because anarchy is different from strife and rebellion. Also, Tyr didn't defeat a god of strife, nor a god of rebellion, nor a god of anarchy and strife and rebellion; he defeated a god of anarchy, and thats where the whole discussion of anarchy as a portfolio came from. So Shar had those at Netheril's time? I'm not especially familiar with the Netherese pantheon. Interesting (and no, I'm not especially interested in you adding portfolios to a deity who didn't have them just because you think they should have them; disagreement and conflict are related, but being deity of disagreement doesn't mean you have to be deity of conflict). It does makes sense she would eventually seek to claim those portfolios again. It doesn't change the fact Cyric got murder from Bhaal, who got it from Jergal; he got hatred from Bane, who got it from Jergal; and he got lies and illusion from Leira, whose origin is unknown. So she lost them sometime between the Age of Netheril and the coming of the Dead Three. Must've been bad days for her. Of course, considering Cyric got his portfolios by killing his predecessors, it seems rather silly to claim that Shar can take any of those portfolios when Cyric is killed, by virtue of the fact that she held them at once time. She didn't get any of them back when Cyric killed those deities. Again, I'm not saying she doesn't have a good claim on those portfolios, I'm saying she doesn't have the right to just take them if someone else destroys Cyric. Nowhere at any point in this discussion did I claim that a portfolio could be stolen from a living deity through acting in a manner that promotes the portfolio; rather, I posed it as a consideration that could potentially be equal in weight to being the one behind the god's death. Wherein do you see evidence that it would be equal in weight? Where does that supposition come from? Because I've yet to see a case wherein the killer of a deity was helpless to affect what happened to that portfolio. You're just trading expenditure of divine energy or some other measure of base power here for a dramatic increase in scrutiny and portfolio-prevention related scheming, which just ends up making it sound that much more like a full-time job.As I said above, the good deities are already opposing the evil ones; and note, the evil ones are opposing both the good deities and each other. Its just a matter of the good deities focusing their efforts to thwart the apprehension of a portfolio, as opposed to (or in addition to) some other scheme of the evil deities. If done right... Hard to do it right against gods like Shar or Mask, pretending for the moment that I think of Mask as some sort of smooth operator. If done wrong, it explodes in their face, failing to prevent the portfolios from being claimed and leaving them worse off than they would have been if they hadn't tried this in the first place. Definately hard to do. There are some mighty schemers among the evil deities. But how, exactly, would opposing evil deities leave good deities worse off than if they let evil deities have free reign? Not if they're smart, and particularly not in this case if they have a shot at some portfolios but not others. Bane, for instance, is not going to be getting Intrigue or Illusions any time soon, he probably doesn't even particularly want them. Shar could go for Strife and Murder, but she's going to get the most mileage out of the ones she has the best shot at anyway and probably wouldn't mind giving those two up to Bane to increase the chances of getting anything. The most dangerous competitors are going to realize that some increase in power is better than none, and the resulting imbalance between them and the failed guardians of the portfolios is a gain in itself. They're going to exploit the good deity's efforts to alienate them/the others, perhaps even humor it superficially, and tear the portfolios from them when they're most bogged down in their futile effort.Most of that is both very true and likely. Where I disagree, however, is that (a)The evil deities may or may not try to outmanuever and undercut each other, even if they are "allied"; but the point is, they are both capable of it, and so would have to be on guard the whole time. Meanwhile, the good deities can act much more in concert. Doesn't neccesarily mean good wins, but they are in a better position. Also, (b) I fail to see how opposing evil deities is in any way an unusual use of the good deities' time and energy. Do you mean through their followers? Your examples seem to suggest otherwise so my next question will assume you don't. Namely: What are you basing that on?I do mean their followers; the churches of the various deities interact far, far more often than the deities do directly. I continually bring up direct conflict between deities because these are the only instances in which portfolios have changed hands. Re:Tempus v. Garagos: That whole scenario is based upon the presumption that those particular sages' assumptions about why Garagos is alive are correct. If they are not, and one of the other scenarios is in fact the case, then all that is irrelevant. Lathander trying to claim portfolios that would obviously facilitate overtures that his buddies have had pretty awful experiences with in the past is a wonderful way for their little group to get caught up with internal disputes. He's really living proof that not all the threats to the lives/futures are ones that bear them any ill will, and at the very least Tyr's not about to forget that. Indeed, its true that Sune and Tyr may take a dim view of Lathander trying to claim that portfolio, and it could cause dissention. That may or may not stop him, depending on how things went. Besides that, the congruence between Secrets and Intrigue is such that he'd essentially be offering Shar a window into his church, as far as divine scrutiny goes.Again with linking portfolios? If that's true, then no deity could hold intrigue without being under Shar's power. Talos must be beholden to Akadi (impossible to have storms without air). Umberlee is a pawn of Istishia (this one should be obvious). Malar can't act without Silvanus knowing (beasts--wild nature). No deity of strife is safe from the eye of Tempus (or vice versa?). So on and so forth. Two portfolios may be related or have links, but if two seperate deities hold them, then the two are seperate and neither has power over the other. Dont get me wrong; increasing secrecy would most likely help feed power to Shar, but it wouldn't give her power over you. Siamorphe is a demigod: it doesn't matter what portfolios they have, they're not exclusively theirs. That's how both Moander and Myrkul could have Corruption right before they bought it. There's really no difference between trusting a portfolio to a demigod and just blocking it off while leaving it unclaimed, unless the demigod becomes a lesser/intermediate before anyone can take it (and those no longer exist.) First, this belief they no longer exist: And we decided that several different mechanisms would be at work, just so that it wouldn't seem quite so heavy-handed. Deities like Mystra, Helm, and Laduguer actually get killed (as you've seen in the Grand History); later on we'll simply present other deities as minor gods, demigods, or divine figures associated with the greater deities who still head up major faiths. So minor gods and demigods do still exist. As for giving portfolios to demigods, its true demigods can't make sole claim of a portfolio. But for one, gaining a portfolio is a tried and true way of increasing power, so you would be making your ally more powerful. Secondly, its a way to exert some influence over a portfolio you can't claim yourself. Hoar's also a demigod, but I'll ignore that for a second. Tyr handing Intrigue over to Hoar as the process of coming up with ingenious ways to avenge transgressions and whatnot becomes an issue when their rather contrasting views on things like 'acceptable levels of vindictiveness/cruelty' come to the fray. It's not all that big a deal compared to what could happen with it, but I don't think Tyr would really want to encourage the sorts of disputes that would likely arise.Tyr already seeks with Hoar to unlock his humor and encourage his sense of poetry and justice; sheltering and aiding him would be steps on the path to aiding that process. Yeah that one can go through, almost. Except even you've conceded the potential for an opposing deity's portfolio to influence the one who seized it from them. Sune's liable to pass on Cyric germs.And not Leira germs? Not every portfolio's a poison pill, or it'd be pointless to fight over portfolios. There's nothing poisonous about the illusion school of magic. Seeing as he hates murder on the asinine premise that people can die before their time, I think he'd prefer Death and Murder to remain distinct. He's supposed to be all about his job lately, which is first and foremost presiding over the kingdom of the dead, and even if he were willing to reintegrate Murder into Death he might decline to do so in the hopes of minimizing the incentive for the portfolio's hopeful claimants to defile the dead/harass the shades in his care.Ah, yes, the whole "die when it's your time".....got that straight from Jergal; that's always been his deal. Kelemvor listens to him quite a lot, seems like. Then I suppose Kelemvor would be the main enemy of the murder portfolio, where-ever it ended up. So difficult, in fact, that you posit that the three slayers of Cyric would be able to effectively shoulder the burden of guarding/redistributing the portfolios in the aftermath, among assorted other urgent duties and tasks that they must perform. Redistrubuting portfolios is hardly draining. And "guarding" portfolios is hardly more than a shift in their preexisting efforts against the evil deities. The fight against Cyric, barring Shar's intervention (she didn't intervene in the imprisonment, apparently), is three on one. It would still be taxing, but the odds are greatly in their favor. Mind you, not wanting to tax themselves that way in the wake of the planar apocalypse may well be part of why they chose imprisonment over death; that doesn't neccesarily means they were incapable of it. True enough, but that's not the issue. The issue is the consequences of doing so. You can say that Illusions aren't inherently evil, or Intrigue, or whatever else, and you'd be right. So what, though? How many portfolios are inherently evil? Not Moander's Rot, possibly Corruption depending on the since in which they mean it (if not his, though definitely Gargauth's), not Strife, not Lies, arguably not Hatred depending on the cause/mode of expression, not Destruction, not Loss, not Pain, not Poison, not Darkness, not... well that's enough I think. Misgivings around them persist nonetheless; being in the care of twisted, malevolent beings for decades or centuries can mean you're inheriting more than the portfolios. This could be a matter of actual corruption, or simply the loathing and stigma associated with it.Illusion hasn't even been Cyric's very long in mortal terms, let alone god-terms. What's more, out of all the deities Cyric's taken down, the only one who's church he left alone was Leira's; they operate as before. Of the ones who even know Cyric attacked Leira, some believe Leira won, some believe Cyric is Leira, some dont care, and all of them lie about it (it is Leira's church, after all). Leira was not evil. Then there's the fact that the gnomes, a race closely tied to illusions, see illusions as a beneficient force, used in earnest for defense and in jest for pranks. Their god of illusions, Baravar Cloakshadow, is Neutral Good. Intrigue has better potential for corruption, though again, given the portfolio history I'd see it more likely to turn you Mask-like than Cyric-like. And I'll repeat that the conclusion you seem to have reached, that the killers of a god are automatically the first ones to decide what happens with the loser's portfolios, is a questionable one. It's merely an assumption on the basis of cases in which successful practitioners of deicide claimed the loser's portfolios, without consideration for other factors that are common to the incidents.Silly me for using Occam's Razor to see what the evidence of past precedent is telling me, instead of making theories up whole cloth. Doesn't change the fact that the example heeded the prospect of portfolios altering a deity's nature. Even if they did sidestep the issue with a retcon, and I'd like to see your source for that, the fact that they even considered it one to begin with speaks volumes.IF you'd like to see my source for that, check out any and every thread around here about the Shadow Weave. There's a multitude; take your pick. I'm not going to turn this one into another one. As for the rest, yes, we all know absorbing the power of other deities can have dramatic consequences. That doesn't mean taking up a portfolio is an auto-doom to be avoided. Who said anything about this being led by Ao? As I envision it, it's strictly a contest (read, contest, not legal proceeding or formal debate) between deities unless it gets too far out of hand.What do you base that on, since nothing like that's ever happened? As far as I'm concerned, raising the issue as a potential determinant comes from the assumptions that I'm not making here: namely, that killing a god supersedes any other possible considerations surrounding the issue of who ends up first in line to reap the benefits from their death (or reject them.)Well, I base that on the fact that portfolios often act like object to be claimed, stolen, or transferred. On the fact that deities can and do absorb "divine power" or "divine essences" from defeated foes. And that those facts together lead to the conclusion that since the deity there is the one in the position to absorb or reject the portfolio/divine essence/power/whatever, that they have a rather large say on what happens to that portfolio. So I've already covered this above to some extent, but I find I can't resist given the rather interesting way in which you phrased this. What precedent covers giving portfolios to other portfolios?No particular precedent, and I'd forgotten the "death in its own time" focus of Kelemvor. Still, one would hardly think giving a subset of a larger portfolio to the holder of the greater portfolio to be unthinkable. Portfolio transfers are accounted for, and, to give other examples, one could hardly see a problem with granting the Conjuration portfolio to Mystra, or the Lakes portfolio to Istishia, etc. So you say, but I wonder where their universal demotion to demi-god status fits into this claim. Even if it is the case, they need to make sure their realm is up to accommodating them in a number of ways, such as the laying/revision of hierarchies in some cases, detecting potential conflicts between their tenants and taking steps to minimize them, assigning duties, ironing out agreements, etc. And that's taking for granted that all of these poor bastards made it to the realms of Greater Gods on their own.Well, it appears there isn't a universal demotion to demi-god status, so that changes quite a bit. But the beauty of the good deities is they can generally trust each other, so the greater deity can assign a greater servant, minor aspect, or even avatar to take care of that while they handle bigger fish. Multitasking like that's one of the perks of being a greater deity. The evil greater deities can do the same, of course, but they have to worry about one of the minor or demi-deities trying to set up a trap so they can go for a coup. Or as corpses, those intermediate/lesser/demi-gods add up to a ridiculously expansive portfolio base. I think it's liable to end up a compromise between the two for them and I don't think that's a compromise that the benevolent deities can, in good conscience, make.Oh, I'm sure we haven't seen the final casualty list for this event; may as well tell the Githyanki to go ahead and start making bids on the Spellplague Archipelago real-estate. Conveniently adjacent to the Mystra Archipelago! :P Since pantheon shrinking is a goal, I rather think there will be an accompannying reduction in the number of portfolios about to go along with the servitor-hood of some deities.
Vasyek 10-20-07, 09:28 PM	n contradiction to his nature as a devil lord (perhaps of manifestation of his break with them, or perhaps a manifestation of the reason for his break with them? Hmmmm). I don't really think it poses any sort of contradiction to his hellish origins to begin with. Just because contracts and bureaucracy are so prevalent among devils, it doesn't follow that every devil will have any particular interest or rapport with them simply because of what they are. It's not like there aren't all sorts of other ways to be lawful evil. They remain, however, the best candidates for the portfolio, overall, but I think we agree they'd have to actually act to claim them; the portfolio wouldn't default to either just because they were the best suited for it. True, I don't believe it would default to either. But then, I don't believe a portfolio would simply default to anyone no matter the circumstances. It might come seem like a foregone conclusion in the case of things like the former owner willingly deferring it to another, but even that has limits (i.e., Bane couldn't pass Hatred on to Sune even if she was keen on accepting it, barring some freak turn of events initiating its conversion to the Cycle of Relationships example or similar.) Valygar Thirdborn wasn't the god of Rebellion and Strife. He was a god of anarchy. So it was indeed a seperate. And if you believe that difference in they refer to them actually keeps them separate in any meaningful way, then the effort of barring access to a portfolio is meaningless from the start. Murder's off limits? Big deal, I'll just take Homicide. Strife's gone? Say hello to Discord... At any rate, believing that there should be no law or government (anarchy) may lead to strife and rebellion (or not, depending on the disposition of the anarchist), but is an independent concept. You're either mistaking Anarchy for Anarchism here, or appealing to its least likely definition in its context as a divine portfolio. The latter is about as convincing as putting forth a claim that when they say Eldath is the goddess of Peace, they really mean she's the goddess of Silence and Stillness. The definition by which Anarchy is a social perspective rather than a phenomenon/synonym for Strife and/or Rebellion is as follows: “a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.” If that's really the one they were trying to get across with the Thirdborn's portfolio, they'd have used terms that were free of the baggage the word anarchy has, such as liberty and cooperation, and worked the whole 'we don't need governments' thing into his church's dogma, in which case Tyr wouldn't have had a reason to off him in the first place. Oppose him, sure, but he could no more justify disposing of him than he could killing Lliira. The entire reason Cyric created the Cyrinishad was to use it to gain more power. Certainly, and as a means to power, the Cyrinishad was an artifact designed to subvert the will of mortals. Even Cyric didn't know that it could effect gods until it was too late. It was Mask perusing the Cyrinishad combined with Cyric destroying a major avatar of Mask which allowed Cyric to steal intrigue from Mask. So yes, Cyric did go through special effort, which weakened Mask, and allowed Cyric to steal his portfolio. I guess we have rather different views of what constitutes special effort. If Mask inadvertently falling under the sway of a tome that accidentally had the power to affect him and Cyric breaking a major avatar that happened to lose all of its powers screams 'special effort' to you, then I'm willing to leave it at that. As for Xvim, you're more or less correct there in that Xvim was mostly just the right guy in the right place at the right time; not that this is coincidence since he had a special hatred of Cyric. It is, however, purely by accident that he was freed during the sacking of Zhentil Keep and it's debatable whether he even knew who Cyric was before he made it to the surface. Since he was already in opposition of him he was particularly poised to take advantage when Cyric was weakened. That's as much rank conjecture as anything you've accused me of. Moreso, actually, seeing as I've never claimed that mere sentiments (and that really is all his opposition could amount to while he languished under Zhentil Keep) had any meaningful sway over the issue of portfolio candidacy. I'll humor it for a second anyway, and ask where the hell you came up with the notion of it conferring a 'particular' advantage. Did he hate Cyric more than Talos. Loviatar, or Gargauth did? Even if he did, in what way would that alone surpass the advantages that they held, such as greater power to enforce their bid for the portfolio (in the case of the first two), a better position from which to anticipate and thus react to the event, and more extensive histories of promoting/exemplifying those portfolios (even in Talos' case, considering that you don't need to be lawful to engage in and perpetuate tyranny.) Just because Cyric was the one who left the door open doesn't mean Xvim isn't guilty of the act of theft. The question isn't whether he stole something, it's whether the act entailed any special effort. Given your rather liberal view of what qualifies there, I suppose you'd had no problem saying it did, though. So Shar wouldn't be able to keep her secret plot secret, so the good gods would know that Shar helped Cyric. They would then figure out that Shar wanted them to kill Cyric (another of Shar's secrets), so that she could lie in wait till the last moment (aided, no doubt, by her status as goddess of secrets, dark, night, and possibly dungeons, depending on where this all takes place; as I recall, Cyric's specific domicile is a keep) and kill Cyric for his power. So the good gods thus would not kill Cyric because it would help Shar. Misinterpretations this clumsy are nothing short of tragic, but I'll clarify on the off-chance that you didn't build this straw man on purpose: -Shar wouldn't be able to prevent them from considering the likelihood of her involvement given the victim and the sort of power and duplicity that would be required to kill said victim. -They would then consider the fact that her involvement would almost inevitably entail the desire to exploit Cyric in any and all viable capacities; amongst which would be the seizure of his portfolios, or the assassination of weakened/occupied players in the midst or aftermath of the conflict, in the easily predictable event of retributive action by other gods. -They would then consider the fact that Shar's presence/intentions are impossible for them to confirm or disconfirm under the circumstances, and ask themselves whether killing him is worth the risks given the uncertainty involved. -Being reasonably intelligent gods who'd rather not screw themselves over, they'd probably not gamble on the chance of Shar not having anticipated their response to Cyric or being in a position to exploit it. If those two deities can't keep an alliance hidden, They kept it hidden long enough that good gods are in the position of having to react to its outcome. and its obvious that the whole point of that secret alliance is Shar's secret wish to set up Cyric (her ally), Now that would be obvious to everyone who so much as considered the possibility of Shar allying herself with anyone in general, but especially in the case of an unstable pariah like Cyric. Cyric would know it too; there seriously isn't a god out there (barring maybe Baghtru) who wouldn't count on Shar having ulterior motives. The fact that he proceeded with it anyway only means he considered the pleasure of butchering Mystra/possibility of getting a shot at her portfolios to be worth the risks. so that she can secretly lie in wait and surprise everyone by killing and claiming her ally's power... Yeah, given that it's a complete no-brainer that people would catch on to the fact that Mystra died and one set of gods or another would probably raise up Cyric as a scapegoat for it even if they couldn't come up with proof for any of the culprits, it's pretty damned obvious that among the ways in which Shar would consider profiting from the event would be by exploiting the ensuing conflict: whether that means hanging around in secret to seize his portfolios right before they have a ghost of a chance at securing them, picking off survivors, or laying waste to their seats of power while they're absent. well, then there's no point to Shar's existance at all since she can't keep her plots secret, and secret plots are her modus operandi. The fact that people can realize that she's so devious and underhanded is no mark against her given that their knowledge of these very qualities prevent them from ever being truly certain of what she's up to. That in itself could be crippling for her enemies/rivals when they're trying to predict what she'll do or what she could be in a position to do about what they're doing. Especially when the stakes are huge, like they are here. But that isn't the same as this scenario, wherein just by providing Cyric aid or access to a powersource (Shar is not Goddess of the Shadow Weave, she merely is capable of providing access), she can claim his portfolios upon his death. It doesn't matter whether she's the Goddess of the Shadow Weave or not; she knows more about it than anyone and has had millennia over which to lay traps throughout it. The true extent of these traps will never be known now, but given her enthusiastic attempts to sway other deities over to it, it's no stretch at all to assume that they include one or more capable of having a significant effect on gods as well. It probably, even assuredly, wouldn't be enough to strip them of portfolios outright, at least if they were as close to her in power as Cyric is, but it's another story altogether if they're severely weakened or dying. Of course, considering Cyric got his portfolios by killing his predecessors, it seems rather silly to claim that Shar can take any of those portfolios when Cyric is killed, by virtue of the fact that she held them at once time. By killing some of his predecessors. And while we're on the subject, there's no indication that Torm and Mystra were ever even in line for Bane and Myrkul's portfolios despite the fact that they were the ones who killed them. Wherein do you see evidence that it would be equal in weight? Where does that supposition come from? For starters, the fact that the gods who usurp portfolios through deicide have been ones who have portfolios that bear affinities to the portfolios they gained/have promoted actions, beliefs, and behaviors that are conducive to dead god's portfolios. It's by no means conclusive, but it's enough to raise the possibility, and given that precedent of deicide as a means of acquiring portfolios is subject to such readily apparent limitation, I take deicide in general to be no more than a possibility as well. Because I've yet to see a case wherein the killer of a deity was helpless to affect what happened to that portfolio And you've only seen cases in which the killer demonstrated any noted ability to affect what happened to a portfolio when they've claimed it, and those cases have the problems I mentioned repeatedly. As I said above, the good deities are already opposing the evil ones; There's a difference between opposing the evil gods in general and seeking to prevent them from performing actions that would bring them in alignment with the portfolios they seek. If Bane wanted Murder, for instance, between his past history of bloody oppression/insatiable hunger for sacrifices and a sudden upsurge in unjust executions and blood sacrifices (of general peasantry, slaves, prisoners, and the followers of the weakened gods under his thumb), it probably wouldn't be that hard for him to make a grab for it without ever even leaving the comfort of his own territory. In the event of something like that happening, the good gods have to either send their own folks into his kingdom to prevent it or attempt to the dupe other evil gods into doing that for them. Shar definitely wouldn't do it since Bane's success would force the good gods to redouble their efforts against him, which spells opportunities for her, and even if Talos wanted to, he has less followers than Bane and would have his fair share of trouble gathering his faithful into a cohesive unit that could effectively oppose the Banites within the heart of their own kingdom. Definately hard to do. There are some mighty schemers among the evil deities. But how, exactly, would opposing evil deities It's not a matter of simply opposing deities in the usual capacity, it's a matter of hindering them to the extent that they couldn't make a grab for the portfolios they want to keep away from them and which they might easily qualify for already. And not equally so between them; Shar obviously has a lead on Intrigue and so forth, while Bane probably has a lead on Murder (given that he has more followers than Talos and their practices are so thoroughly institutionalized within their territory), while Talos probably has a lead on Strife (via the thematic convergence between it and Rebellion, and the sort of panic and confusion his followers/the disasters under his sway are so adept at provoking.) leave good deities worse off than if they let evil deities have free reign? It's not a matter of giving them free reign, it's a matter of choosing their fights. As for how it would leave them worse off, it would do so by dent of the added resources they'd have to expend over the course of a wasted effort when they'd need everything they could muster in its aftermath. Where I disagree, however, is that (a)The evil deities may or may not try to outmanuever and undercut each other, even if they are "allied"; but the point is, they are both capable of it, and so would have to be on guard the whole time. That whole scenario is based upon the presumption that those particular sages' assumptions about why Garagos is alive are correct. If they are not, and one of the other scenarios is in fact the case, then all that is irrelevant. That and support for the presumption in the cases I've mentioned. Or rather, the Shadow Weave case, which they ducked rather than addressing/contradicting. Again with linking portfolios? If that's true, then no deity could hold intrigue without being under Shar's power. Remarkable. I know I sort of insinuated earlier that you were intentionally misreading what I said, but I'm starting to believe that you honestly don't get it after all. This worries me, because it was plain as day. I hold on to the hope, however, that you can understand if I walk you through it. So without further adu, my prior response: Besides that, the congruence between Secrets and Intrigue is such that he'd essentially be offering Shar a window into his church, as far as divine scrutiny goes. A window into his church. As far as divine scrutiny goes. Divine scrutiny. Portfolio sense. I'm not talking about a window she can 'walk' through, though if he came to attract followers who cared more about the Intrigue than the Dawn and Renewal she'd have a shot at subverting them and fomenting discord between his faithful, but one she can look through. I.e., the scheming Lathandrans keep secrets to pursue their god's aims or Lathander himself uses the portfolio to hatch conspiracies furthering his interests, either way, Shar gains a precognitive insight into what he's up to half a year before he even gets around to doing it. That's a bad thing. Much worse for Lathandar than it is for Cyric, because she'd only like to see him dead in the way she'd like to see most people dead: after she's bled them dry of any use. But Lathander? She hates him like she hates the sun, she hates him almost as bad as she hates Selune. She might not do much about Cyric's Intrigues for a number of reasons, key among them being that their interests intersect to a marked degree and she'd probably rather avoid entering into direct conflict with him, but Lathander's interests about as far from hers as they can get and they're already in the business of actively opposing one another. ...So minor gods and demigods do still exist. In other words, what I said. If I thought that all intermediate deities and lower didn't exist rather than it merely being the stations they once occupied that vanished, then why would I have even mentioned demigods? Tyr already seeks with Hoar to unlock his humor and encourage his sense of poetry and justice; sheltering and aiding him would be steps on the path to aiding that process. There's this very basic problem in reasoning here. Hoar, while a god that bridles against wrongdoing, is also a god who is profoundly vindictive. Profoundly vindictive people can do some pretty hideous things when they feel provoked/have to power to act, and are by no means inclined to view it is wrong when the bad guys get 'taste of their own medicine'. So Tyr's going to give Hoar more power and extend Hoar's capacity to be fiendishly inventive in devising and executing revenge schemes and hope that it brings Hoar's brand of justice in line with his own? In spite of the potential for Intrigue to influence/corrupt that you've already admitted, no less? And not Leira germs? Not every portfolio's a poison pill, or it'd be pointless to fight over portfolios. No, there all are. It's simply a matter of whether the changes they induce are changes the god finds unpalatable or not. There's nothing poisonous about the illusion school of magic. Who says that it's just about the illusion school of magic? It could easily include hallucinations. Not that it really changes anything either way; even assuming illusion spells/effects alone, that still includes the hideous, maddening ones along with the pretties. So she's going to experience those hideous, maddening illusions and and witness all the misery born of them right alongside the alluring, pleasurable ones she personally endorses. That's a pretty bitter pill for the Goddess of Love to swallow, just imagine her not being able to turn her eyes away the atrocities that can and will emerge from it: what amounts to rape through the assuming of a lover's seeming, phantasmal horrors, people wiled by tableaus of false contentment, blind to the atrophy of their flesh and progressive accumulation of filth that lies under the veil of their hollow bliss, etc. And there's no way she can stop it all, she probably couldn't even do all that much about it to begin with, given that the consequences so seem to be enough to keep even Cyric from screwing with how illusions can be used/how they manifest. The fight against Cyric, barring Shar's intervention (she didn't intervene in the imprisonment, apparently), is three on one. It would still be taxing, but the odds are greatly in their favor. The fact that they're doing so on his home plane cuts into that a bit. Bear in mind, however, that even if we agreed it was be a forgone conclusion that would leave all of them essentially unhurt, that only supports the point you were trying to argue against. Mind you, not wanting to tax themselves that way in the wake of the planar apocalypse may well be part of why they chose imprisonment over death; that doesn't neccesarily means they were incapable of it. that doesn't neccesarily means they were incapable of it. I've never said they weren't capable of it. This whole debate started with the question of whether the effects of inheriting his portfolios/allowing them to be inherited is a reason why they'd hold off on doing so, remember? Then there's the fact that the gnomes, a race closely tied to illusions, see illusions as a beneficient force, used in earnest for defense and in jest for pranks. Doesn't make it anything close to true, though. Illusions are illusions, they can uplift and they can debase. The fact that you prefer one use doesn't make the other disappear. Their god of illusions, Baravar Cloakshadow, is Neutral Good. Gnomes are a whole lot less twisted and base than humans on the whole, Baravar wouldn't be skinny-dipping through sludge the way Sune would be. Silly me for using Occam's Razor to see what the evidence of past precedent is telling me, instead of making theories up whole cloth. Silly of you to claim the use of Occam's Razor in the first place. What you're pushing here is an inductive fallacy (that of hasty generalization, to be precise.) IF you'd like to see my source for that, check out any and every thread around here about the Shadow Weave. If that's my choice, I'll just take your word for it. Those threads are a breeding ground for all sorts of things that I'm apathetic toward at best. And for the record, it's not something I'd have spared that much energy for. It's even more of a tangent than most of this, after all. That doesn't mean taking up a portfolio is an auto-doom to be avoided. You're not addressing anything I've said with that line. What do you base that on, since nothing like that's ever happened? It's happened any time that a portfolio was lost or gained outside of any Ao-led trial concerning who should end up with it, which is most of the time (perhaps even all of the time, though I'll not discount the possibility of it having happened in some undisclosed past incident.) It's divine business as usual, with the point of contention between us being the comparative significance of the factors at play throughout it. Well, I base that on the fact that portfolios often act like object to be claimed, stolen, or transferred. On the fact that deities can and do absorb "divine power" or "divine essences" from defeated foes. We're good so far, sort of. But the And that those facts together lead to the conclusion that since the deity there is the one in the position to absorb or reject the portfolio/divine essence/power/whatever assertion falls flat. 'The' one, as in paramount or exclusive I assume... A conclusion reached through scenarios you gut of context to fit your argument. Still, one would hardly think giving a subset of a larger portfolio to the holder of the greater portfolio to be unthinkable. Never said it was. I questioned whether it was feasible in this particular case, depending on what the process of subsuming it into death (your original suggestion) demands of those involved. Portfolio transfers are accounted for, and, to give other examples, one could hardly see a problem with granting the Conjuration portfolio to Mystra, or the Lakes portfolio to Istishia, etc. And you go on to assume that portfolio transfers tell us anything about what subsuming portfolios would entail? Well, it appears there isn't a universal demotion to demi-god status, so that changes quite a bit. Right... just “minor gods, demigods, or divine figures associated with the greater deities who still head up major faiths.” Three interpretations of what the 4e dichotomy involves readily come to mind: -all deities that are not greater deities basically become the same in power level, which means that demigods are raised to some median level which their more powerful counterparts are reduced to, everyone's reduced to the upper range, or everyone descends to the bottom. I favor the last one given the loss of their realms, the capacity in which they are described to function, the descriptors used (“minor gods, demigods, or divine figures”), and the fact that they can't even form their own realms. -there are greater deities, who will probably end up being effectively equal across the board given a reported lack of inclination to stat them in 4e, and then there are the “minor gods, demigods, or divine figures” who will occupy a single category as servitors. This second category does not in fact have any bearing on the power of those who are considered to occupy it so long as they are less powerful than the greater deities; this means, quite unlike the first category, the second will vary so wildly in terms of power/significance that it essentially doesn't tell you anything that's actually useful in determining their place in the scheme of things. -something between the two: intermediates will no longer potentially be the near equals of greater gods, but there's still a lot of room between what was called a demigod and what was called lesser god (which the former intermediates may stand at the top of.) Two thirds of the first (raise all the weaker ones up to the level of their counterparts, randomly raise/reduce them all to first some arbitrary median) are rather asinine, but a widespread reduction as equalization makes sense given the cataclysm they've weathered. The second makes more work than it reduces, seeing as they now have to individually address their worshiper bases, portfolio significance, and/or ascribed standings/privileges if they mean to indicate whether they're more or less powerful/important than other gods within the same category. The third could also happen, but it only slightly lessens the problems I mentioned regarding the second and it still indicates a crisis that the greater gods probably didn't leave them to solve on their own. But the beauty of the good deities is they can generally trust each other, It's not that cut and dried. The deities of FR are more about portfolio/dogma than alignment, so it's quite possible for disputes to be endemic when even good deities are crammed together. Probably not as widespread as those you'll find among the evil deities, granted, but they can't exactly go around threatening their subordinates with horrible agonies/summary execution either. The evil greater deities can do the same, of course, but they have to worry about one of the minor or demi-deities trying to set up a trap so they can go for a coup. Sure, set up a trap in their superior's own realm, the place that said superior can manipulate and survey with nothing more than a thought. Genius. Even if they could pull it off, there's still the matter of the metaphysical ground collapsing right out from under them. Not the best of times for trying to usurp portfolios, let alone familiarize oneself with how to wield the newfound power. Since pantheon shrinking is a goal, I rather think there will be an accompannying reduction in the number of portfolios about to go along with the servitor-hood of some deities. Doubtful, if they want this to make anything approaching sense. It's more likely that the greater gods will assume the ones they're suited for. And just as an aside, since I didn't seem to find a particular place to put this among the responses to responses, if you really believe that responsibility for a god's death is such a be-all and end-all in these affairs then the argument about how they'd kill him or why they wouldn't becomes pretty moot in the first place. After all, Cyric would have become the god of Magic, Spells, Divination, and Fate, at least, even if he passed on the Weave out of self-preservation and Truth out of disgust. No question he'd be more than a match for any one of them at the best of times in that case, and in the heart of his realm there'd be no telling who'd come out of it alive even with all three acting in concert.
Zsych 10-21-07, 04:03 AM	^ Looks like one of my or LK's posts in the Shade vs. Evermeet thread :) Anyway... my very short comments on this thread: Maybe the time Cyric spends working with Shar towards Mystra's destruction will make him more worthwhile. ... and still don't get how Shar's great plan doesn't include the demise of her sister, unless Shar wants to humiliate her and make her feel despair before dealing the final blow.
SgtAnjay 10-21-07, 05:58 AM	The Nine Hells have oft been described as hellishly conformist. There are indeed many ways to be lawful evil; the devils are of the opinion that their way is the way. Its from that lore that I would take Gargauth not conforming to their methods as a....symptom of why he's no longer there. We're definately of two minds in regards to related but seperate portfolios. By your viewpoint, where two portfolios that have simular meanings must be the same, and having one means you have both. I say that Istishia does not have power over Umberlee and Valkur and Eldath, even though their portfolios involve water. Akadi does not control Talos despite the fact that storms are rather impossible without air. Tempus does not rule whoever holds strife, and neither does whoever holds strife have power over Tempus, even though those concepts are intimately interrelated. Loviatar could not use sadists or masochists, because that would put them under Sharess's sway since pleasure is hers. Secrets and intrigue cant be seperate by your point of view, despite the fact they very clearly are seperate portfolios held by different deities, and ALL deities (except, perhaps, Tyr and/or the Triad) scheme and plot and keep things secret, but they are not puppets dancing to Shar's strings, nor is Cyric privy to their every move. As for Valygar, an anarchist could encourage the belief there should be no law, that you can do whatever you want. That does not require them to compell their followers into commiting acts of strife, and you rather have to acknowledge authority before you can rebell against it. Of course, you'll say that's nonsense, because obviously if you dont believe in law then there will be strife with the lawful, and not doing what the law wants is an act of rebellion; that's true, from the lawful point of view, and certainly how Tyr would view it. The chaotic anarchist point of view is not obligued to agree. So while someone who's lawful might not see that there could be a difference between those portfolios, if you believe that law is itself a wrongful and misguided viewpoint and hence are anarchistic, then you might say there's no difference between law and strife, and rebellion only exists because of law. As regards Xvim, in his entry is lists his foes as "The entire Faerunian pantheon, but especially Cyric". It states he seeks to subsume his father's entire former portfolios; this means direct opposition to Cyric. And while it says he seeks to destroy all other deities, it only ever mentions Cyric by name specifically. Therefore, it rather seems a foregone conclusion he was working against Cyric specifically. Since he did benefit from Cyric's missteps, then apparently he was in a position to be able to benefit from Cyric's missteps, despite the fact that others who greatly outclass Xvim would undoubtedly have wanted those portfolios. Regarding Shar.....you're very confident that everyone must quickly figure out Cyric had the help of Shar, because nothing else could possibly make sense. And two greater deities could do nothing to hide that even though their combined powers together compose unrevealed secrets, darkness, forgetfulness, intrigue, lies, and illusion. I disagree; its pretty easy to say something like that since we didn't have to figure it out, it got told to us. But if any two deities could put together false leads, wild goose chases, and outright barriers to attempts at investigation, it is specifically Shar and Cyric. For all we know, the deities were led to believe by ample (false) evidence that Cyric discovered a version of Orcus's Last Word and used that against Mystra, and the reason Cyric is imprisoned is they feared confront him. Or that Cyric managed to form a new version of Godsbane from the corpses of previous deities he'd killed. Or that Cyric had the help of Velsharoon, whom Cyric then betrayed; Lathander and Sune would eat that one up with a spoon, considering how much they hate undead and necromancy anyway, not to mention the fact Velsharoon had a history of betraying his patron, a fact that a judge like Tyr would consider very telling. Thats just three possibilities off the top of my head; a multitude more could be dreamed up. We're definately not going to agree on the effects of taking on portfolios. I'll agree absorbing the essence of another deity can indeed influence how you come out, I dont agree taking on portfolios neccesarily requires you to become the previous portfolio holder, or administer the portfolio the way the previous holder did. I know a good deity could take the illusion portfolio even though there are neutral and evil uses for illusions; I know this because a good deity already does in another pantheon--Baravar Cloakshadow has that portfolio. Course, even if some of previous holders "sticks" to portfolios, Cyric hasn't even been a deity all that long (doubly so if you look at it in deific terms), and has had deception, illusion, and intrigue even less time than the portfolios he got from the Dead Three. You should by all rights have a much better chance of becoming more Leira-like (for illusions/deception) or Mask-like (for intrigue). Now, as far as Cyric becoming god of Magic, Spells, Divination, and Fate.....he possibly might have, had it not been for that inconvenient apocalypse he unleashed. I guess Cyric never heard of Karsus. I consider his survival in the heart of that catastrophe another interesting little mystery in this Spellplague mess they've handed us. Yeah, we're getting nowhere fast. We disagree on semantics, interpret facts and viewpoints differently, and draw different conclusions from the few things we dont dispute. Mind you, you seem to think this is because I'm defficient, but I doubt we'll much agree on that point, either.
Vasyek 10-21-07, 10:37 AM	The Nine Hells have oft been described as hellishly conformist. There are indeed many ways to be lawful evil; the devils are of the opinion that their way is the way. Even their way has more roles and paradigms available to those subject to it than that of contract-pusher/bureaucrat alone. Of course, you'll say that's nonsense, because obviously if you dont believe in law then there will be strife with the lawful, and not doing what the law wants is an act of rebellion; Of course, because it's more or less the line of reasoning I posited concerning the least likely sense in which Anarchy might be meant as relates to it being a portfolio and went on to reject on the basis that Tyr would have had no justification for killing such a benign anarchist, among other things. It's not a bad objection, though. that's true, from the lawful point of view, and certainly how Tyr would view it. Lliira's the goddess of Freedom and Liberation in addition to the whole Joy line; I doubt she's all that sold on the necessity of government, and her ideal may well be a society in which all coexist not by edict or duty but rather mutual fondness and consideration. It's a bit more florid than the benign anarchy we're presently considering, but just as 'dangerous', or moreso, by Tyr's view, since the whole free love angle would make it more appealing than a less romanticized conception of anarchy means. And yet, he hasn't killed/displayed any frustration at being unable to get away with killing her. The chaotic anarchist point of view is not obligued to agree. The Cyricist point of view is not obliged to agree that murder is a bad thing, or that their god would gladly plunge their world into a state of squalid, cyclical brutality. I wonder if that makes them right. if you believe that law is itself a wrongful and misguided viewpoint and hence are anarchistic, then you might say there's no difference between law and strife, and rebellion only exists because of law. From my experience, such as it is, anarchists are more prone to conflate law with tyranny. As for rebellion only existing because of law, that only follows if law is the only source of expectation or authority. Even in a state of anarchy, there are those who will be considered rebellious. We're definately of two minds in regards to related but seperate portfolios. By your viewpoint, where two portfolios that have simular meanings must be the same, and having one means you have both. Right, because I am skeptical as to the claim that there is a meaningful sense in which there is an Anarchy portfolio outside of Strife/Rebellion, it follows that by my reasoning, any two portfolios with similar meanings must be the same. Never mind the fact that I've previously acknowledged Murder and Death, for instance, as separate portfolios. I say that Istishia does not have power over Umberlee and Valkur and Eldath, even though their portfolios involve water. Akadi does not control Talos despite the fact that storms are rather impossible without air. The elemental gods in general are among the most remote and uncaring you'll find. Even if it automatically followed that portfolio congruence/insight into related activities gave instant and irrevocable power over the god who holds the similar portfolio, and unsurprisingly that's yet another claim apart from any claim I've actually made, they'd still have to exert this power for it, which they'd be disinclined to do to begin with, to mean anything. Tempus does not rule whoever holds strife, and neither does whoever holds strife have power over Tempus, even though those concepts are intimately interrelated. But special mention has been made as to how careful Cyric/Cyricists have to be in promoting Strife so as to prevent it from escalating into war “which pay honor only to Tempus the war deity.” The same conceivably applies to Tempus and exercising care to prevent wars from devolving into amorphous pockets of strife, desertion and bloodshed that are divest of cohesive friend/foe divisions, though lucky for him, that tends to be easier than keeping serious strife from leading to war. Loviatar could not use sadists or masochists, because that would put them under Sharess's sway since pleasure is hers. Wouldn't matter in the first place, since Sharess is merely a demigod. Secrets and intrigue cant be seperate by your point of view, despite the fact they very clearly are seperate portfolios held by different deities, They can be and are. In the same way that not all deaths are murders, not all secrets are surrounded by or manifest intrigue. Doesn't change the fact that intrigue promotes an environment of secrecy, and that a goddess of secrets can benefit from that in a number of ways. and ALL deities (except, perhaps, Tyr and/or the Triad) scheme and plot and keep things secret, but they are not puppets dancing to Shar's strings, Because, of course, having a bug in a rival or enemy's court is tantamount to turning them into your puppets. For the record, I don't think you're deficient, at least to any extent in which it's a meaningfully different qualifier than, say, imperfect, but this marked and repeated tendency to leap head first into the assumption of such radical extremes that easily outstrip the actual implications of what I've said certainly is a deficiency or a matter design. nor is Cyric privy to their every move Of course not, as their every move does not relate to Intrigue, or Lies, or (hopefully!) Murder. Cyric's also slightly weaker than Shar, which means that there's more than one deity in the entire Faerunian Pantheon that can block his ability to sense particular intrigues (mostly their own, since their portfolios, aside from Shar's, do not allow them to receive prophetic notice of most other intrigues.) It's still not the best situation for other gods to be in, but again, the fact that it's a liability for them and an advantage for Cyric does not mean that it seals their fate by any means. Similarly, however, the fact that it's not an 'auto-doom' pronouncement does not mean that the example of Lathander claiming Intrigue would be particularly viable or desirable for him in practice. As regards Xvim, in his entry is lists his foes as "The entire Faerunian pantheon, but especially Cyric". It states he seeks to subsume his father's entire former portfolios; this means direct opposition to Cyric. And while it says he seeks to destroy all other deities, it only ever mentions Cyric by name specifically. Certainly, after he broke free and got some idea as to what was going on in the world. Even if he somehow learned of Cyric while he was still imprisoned underground, he couldn't do anything about it at all until he made it to the surface. Thus, his history of 'opposing' Cyric up to that point would consist, at most, of disliking Cyric, albeit to a murderous/insane degree. Regarding Shar.....you're very confident that everyone must quickly figure out Cyric had the help of Shar, because nothing else could possibly make sense. I'm very confident that they can recognize the collaboration between the two as a distinct possibility and one they'd be wise not to ignore, because the consequences of doing so could be disastrous. For all we know, the deities were led to believe by ample (false) evidence that Cyric discovered a version of Orcus's Last Word and used that against Mystra, and the reason Cyric is imprisoned is they feared confront him. Don't think there could be much compelling evidence for that. Orcus as Tenebrous could vent the Last Word even as a quasi-deity, so there's a more than fair chance that Cyric could do the same through his avatars and he's already proven himself capable of intruding into other deities' realms unannounced (Kelemvor in Crucible, Mystra more recently.) So in that case it wouldn't merely be an issue of Mystra dying, but Mystra, Kelemvor, and Bane dying, for starters. Or that Cyric managed to form a new version of Godsbane from the corpses of previous deities he'd killed. Godsbane just isn't that big a deal. It hasn't been since Cyric became a greater deity of Murder, and, formerly, Death. It's the construct/avatar of a once intermediate deity, then lesser, then demi-, and now back to lesser deity of shadows/thieves (-intrigue), and it was created during that lively time in which every god everywhere was abjectly mortal. Certainly not enough to allow him to overcome the home-field advantage of a more powerful goddess. Or that Cyric had the help of Velsharoon, whom Cyric then betrayed; Lathander and Sune would eat that one up with a spoon, considering how much they hate undead and necromancy anyway, not to mention the fact Velsharoon had a history of betraying his patron, a fact that a judge like Tyr would consider very telling. Another fact that Tyr would consider very telling is that Velsharoon's aid in the matter, even if he were insane enough to collude with Cyric, would be at most a half-step above irrelevant. Mystra doesn't trust him to begin with, he can't exactly create an opening from the inside for Cyric to crawl into because he has no authority over the plane on which he resides, he couldn't provide any substantial aid in the actual assault against Mystra, and Azuth's liable to keep Velsharoon on a short enough leash that even what little he could offer as a free agent is pared down by half. Thats just three possibilities off the top of my head; a multitude more could be dreamed up. And yet none of those three preclude the direct or indirect involvement of Shar as a valid consideration, even if none of them actually seem to work to begin with. I'll agree absorbing the essence of another deity can indeed influence how you come out, I dont agree taking on portfolios neccesarily requires you to become the previous portfolio holder, or administer the portfolio the way the previous holder did. Perfect. End of story, since, unsurprisingly, “taking on portfolios neccesarily requires you to become the previous portfolio holder, or administer the portfolio the way the previous holder did” is yet another claim I never made. The question is the degree of the influence it will exert, presumably somewhere between 'meaningless' and 'overriding', the nature of the influence and how the deity regards it, and the deity's confidence in predicting either. Baravar Cloakshadow has that portfolio. Baravar Cloakshadow is also a member (the head) of the gnomish pantheon. That's his area of concern, gnomes and the gnome way of life are the only context in which his portfolios apply. You should by all rights have a much better chance of becoming more Leira-like (for illusions/deception) or Mask-like (for intrigue). Specious. Do you think that Sune wants to become more Leira-like, or that Lathander wants to become more Mask-like? Now, as far as Cyric becoming god of Magic, Spells, Divination, and Fate.....he possibly might have, had it not been for that inconvenient apocalypse he unleashed. Eviction from his own divine realm, the wholesale slaughter of his followers in his center of worship during the sacking of Zhentil Keep, and the madness of the Cyrinishad weren't enough to keep him from claiming Intrigue. It seems fair to assume that nothing short of Dweomerheart instantaneously becoming a seething, planes-unmaking vortex, rather than building up to that over passing moments (i.e., giving him time to withdraw), would be enough to prevent him from reaping his due there if deicide is such an automatic source of entitlement re: portfolio acquisition. I guess Cyric never heard of Karsus. No, I think he was rather counting on the aftershocks. He's lived through the time of troubles. He knows what it means for the mistress of the Weave to be weakened, and can cheerfully imagine what it means for her to be dead. No matter what kind of idiot you do/don't consider Cyric to be, using that kind of fallout as cover doesn't require much intellectual sophistication to begin with. I consider his survival in the heart of that catastrophe another interesting little mystery in this Spellpague mess they've handed us. Of course, that's perfectly consistent with the lack of perplexity you've shown concerning Azuth and Velsharoon still being alive somewhere out there in the Astral.
SgtAnjay 10-21-07, 10:26 PM	Even their way has more roles and paradigms available to it than that of contract-pusher/bureaucrat alone.Contract-signing is how devils do buisness. They corrupt mortals in all kinds of ways....but contracts is how the deal is sealed. Of course, because it's more or less the line of reasoning I posited concerning the least likely sense in which Anarchy might be meant as relates to it being a portfolio and went on to reject on the basis that Tyr would have had no justification for killing such a benign anarchist, among other things. Tyr wouldn't view that form of anarchism as benign; one wonders if its possible for him to view any form of anarchism as benign. Lliira's the goddess of Freedom and Liberation in addition to the whole Joy line; I doubt she's all that sold on the necessity of government, and her ideal may well be a society in which all coexist not by edict or duty but rather mutual fondness and consideration. It's a bit more florid than the benign anarchy we're presently considering, but just as 'dangerous', or moreso, by Tyr's view, since the whole free love angle would make it more appealing than a less romanticized conception of anarchy means. And yet, he hasn't killed/displayed any frustration at being unable to get away with killing her.She probably would desire a society in which all coexist not by edict or duty but rather mutual fondness and consideration. But actually reading her description and dogma, her focus on freedom and liberty is "acknowledgement of the ability, potential, and talent of the individual", and "respect for the desires and choices of others". In other words, she opposes conformity and tyrrany. This is a far cry from anything as anarchistic as the belief that no one has authority over you, and laws and government are inherently wrong. She may be a goddess of freedom, but she's no anarchist. The Cyricist point of view is not obliged to agree that murder is a bad thing, or that their god would gladly plunge their world into a state of squalid, cyclical brutality. I wonder if that makes them right. Murder is considered one of the hallmarks of evil. Anarchy does not equal evil or conflict, law does not equal good or peace. Anarchy=chaos, and Law=law, and chaos and law are opposed; the battle between Tyr and a god of anarchy may or may not have a good-evil component (I doubt Valygar was any better than Chaotic Neutral, at best), but it was first and foremost a battle between law and chaos, a conflict as real as any match-up of good and evil. Of course, as a longtime fan of Michael Moorcock's works, I've always found the law-chaos conflict more compelling. From my experience, such as it is, anarchists are more prone to conflate law with tyranny. As for rebellion only existing because of law, that only follows if law is the only source of expectation or authority. Even in a state of anarchy, there are those who will be considered rebellious.Just because anarchists conflate law with tyranny, doesn't make all law tyranny. Just because the lawful conflate anarchy with all manner of negative conotations doesn't make it inherently violent or proponents of strife. They are rebellious....in the eyes of law. In their own view, law is in itself wrong and those calling them rebellious are the ones in opposition to how things should be. Also, if you hold the anarchistic view that the only true authority over you is yourself, then the only way you could actually rebel is to rebel against yourself. Right, because I am skeptical as to the claim that there is a meaningful sense in which there is an Anarchy portfolio outside of Strife/Rebellion, it follows that by my reasoning, any two portfolios with similar meanings must be the same. Never mind the fact that I've previously acknowledged Murder and Death, for instance, as separate portfolios.Anarchy does not have to be in favor of conflict or struggle. Anarchy can cause strife....because it is opposed by law. Just because something is opposed, does not mean it hasto be equal to strife. Good is opposed by evil, after all; it is not the same as strife. I also dont believe strife and rebellion are the same things; one may cause the other, but that does not make them the same things, and you could encourage one without encouraging the other. But special mention has been made as to how careful Cyric/Cyricists have to be in promoting Strife so as to prevent it from escalating into war “which pay honor only to Tempus the war deity.” The same conceivably applies to Tempus and exercising care to prevent wars from devolving into amorphous pockets of strife, desertion and bloodshed that are divest of cohesive friend/foe divisions, though lucky for him, that tends to be easier than keeping serious strife from leading to war.So Cyric can keep the line between Strife and War, and Tempus can keep the line between War and Strife, but Anarchy cannot be kept from Strife, Strife cannot be kept from Rebellion? We're not going to agree at all as far as that goes. Wouldn't matter in the first place, since Sharess is merely a demigod. And yet it is specifically mentioned in Faiths and Avatars that "Sharess is well aware of the fine--dark--line between her portfolio and that of Loviatar and jelously guards her domain from the Maiden of Pain." So Sharess herself disagrees that it doesn't matter. Doesn't change the fact that intrigue promotes an environment of secrecy, and that a goddess of secrets can benefit from that in a number of ways.She would definately benefit from an environment of secrecy; and promoting secrecy would feed her power. Thats about as far as it would go. Because, of course, having a bug in a rival or enemy's court is tantamount to turning them into your puppets. For the record, I don't think you're deficient, at least to any extent in which it's a meaningfully different qualifier than, say, imperfect, but this marked and repeated tendency to leap head first into the assumption of such radical extremes that easily outstrip the actual implications of what I've said certainly is a deficiency or a matter design.Well, you make a statement with deep implications as if its an obvious and minor fact. You may not be saying that Shar being able to do that puts the bearer of intrigue under Shar's power, but Shar being able to do that does indeed put the bearer of intrigue under her power. This is a huge advantage; using the knowledge of what they're doing and how they're doing it, she can assist or halt any scheme the bearer of that portfolio puts forth. The God of Intrigue succeeds or fails in intrigues at the whim of another deity. That just seems wrong. And why is this never mentioned, even in write-ups of what she can do with her portfolio sense? Certainly, after he broke free and got some idea as to what was going on in the world. Even if he somehow learned of Cyric while he was still imprisoned underground, he couldn't do anything about it at all until he made it to the surface. Thus, his history of 'opposing' Cyric up to that point would consist, at most, of disliking Cyric, albeit to a murderous/insane degree.He wasn't sealed away cut off from the world, was he? Because if he just couldn't leave the keep, he was entirely capable of gathering information in every way outside of actually being there in person to gather it. As far as opposing goes, he was a deity with a church, who was underneath Zentil Keep, which as I recall was a rather active place with regards to Cyric. Wasn't the fall of Zentil Keep, which freed Iyachtu, part of what weakened Cyric? Xvim was very nicely poised to take advantage of Cyric, someone he had particular reason for opposing. I'm very confident that they can recognize the collaboration between the two as a distinct possibility and one they'd be wise not to ignore, because the consequences of doing so could be disastrous.I'm not. Oh, Cyric killed Mystra, someone he's had a grudge against since they were mortals? Must be Shar at work. :confused: Don't think there could be much compelling evidence than that. Orcus as Tenebrous could vent the Last Word even as a quasi-deity, so there's a more than fair chance that Cyric could do the same through his avatars and he's already proven himself capable of intruding into other deities' realms announced (Kelemvor in Crucible, Mystra more recently.) So in that case it wouldn't merely be an issue of Mystra dying, but Mystra, Kelemvor, and Bane dying, for starters.You may not think there could be compelling evidence, but then you're neither the deity of secrets, darkness, and forgetfulness, nor the deity of intrigue, illusion, deception, and lies. I rather think they could come up with something. Orcus has plenty of enemies left despite having had the Last Word; why wouldn't Cyric? Not to mention that just because Cyric himself could get into an opposed divine realm, doesn't mean an avatar could replicate the feat. In addition, I stated Cyric may have found a version of the Last Word, not neccesarily the exact same phenomena Orcus wielded. That being the case, the properties of what Cyric was weilding would be unknown and unpredictable, especially since the whole thing would be a false lead concocted by the combined deities of darkness, secrecy, forgetfulness, lies, intrigue, and deception. Godsbane just isn't that big a deal. It hasn't been since Cyric became a greater deity of Murder, and, formerly, Death. It's the construct of a once intermediate deity, then lesser, then demi-, and now back to lesser deity of shadows/thieves (-intrigue), and it was created during that lively time in which every god everywhere was abjectly mortal. Certainly not enough to allow him to overcome the home-field advantage of a more powerful goddess.The original Godsbane indeed wouldn't be a tool to overcome the home-field advantage of a more powerful goddess. Of course, I'm not talking about the original Godsbane, but an artifact created for the purpose of killing deities from the remains of dead deities. Cyric has already created an artifact capable of warping deity minds, unintentionally, out of whole cloth. With exotic components through exotic means? Another fact that Tyr would consider very telling is that Velsharoon's aid in the matter, even if he were insane enough to collude with Cyric, would be at most a half-step above irrelevant. Mystra doesn't trust him to begin with, he can't exactly create an opening from the inside for Cyric to crawl into because he has no authority over the plane on which he resides, he couldn't provide any substantial aid in the actual assault against Mystra, and Azuth's liable to keep Velsharoon on a short enough leash that what little he could offer as a free agent is pared down by half.Well, dont we have a rather unflattering opinion of Velsharoon? Velsharoon is stated as reinstating an alliance with Talos right in the wake of using his alliance with Azuth to break ties with Talos before Talos could burn him out, and as using this to play Azuth and Mystra against Talos (and vice versa) for his own benefit. Velsharoon is, in essence, already a double (triple?) agent in the middle of Dweomerheart. Rather sounds like a good candidate for betrayal. As for his authority, you dont seem to grasp how the planes worked. The plane itself is Dweomerheart, which consists of a city atop a plateau. The city and top of the plateau is Mystra's divine realm. Azuth's divine realm is a series of caverns below the city, and Savras's is a smaller series of adjacent caverns. The divine realm of Velsharoom is far below Azuth's realms, in a crypt called Death's Embrace. He has as much power over his divine realm as any deity. And yet none of those three preclude the direct or indirect involvement of Shar as a valid consideration, even if none of them actually seem to work to begin with.Once the deities find the clear and ample (and false) evidence of how Cyric accomplished his deed, how could Shar still be the obvious reason Cyric was able to accomplish his deed? Baravar Cloakshadow is also a member (the head) of the gnomish pantheon. That's his area of concern, gnomes and the gnome way of life are the only context in which his portfolios apply.Baravar Cloakshadow isn't the head of the gnomish pantheon, Garl Glittergold is. Baravar Cloakshadow is the deity of illusions, deceptions, traps, and wardings. He is Neutral Good. He may be concerned with gnomes and their way of life, but he's just as much a deity of illusions as Leira was or Cyric is; he's just a member of a seperate pantheon which has a different sphere of influence. The Faerunian Pantheon's sphere of influence is geographic; Cyric's writ ends where Faerun does, and his dominion over illusionists does not apply to those covered by their racial deities. Specious. Do you think that Sune wants to become more Leira-like, or that Lathander wants to become more Mask-like?If the influence the lingering bits of Leira adhered to the portfolio of illusion would make little dent on the Greater Goddess that is Sune, it would be irrelevant. Mask is and was more powerful than Leira, but Lathander would quite likely be a difficult deity for a remnant of Mask to eclipse. Eviction from his own divine realm, the wholesale slaughter of his followers in his center of worship during the sacking of Zhentil Keep, and the madness of the Cyrinishad weren't enough to keep him from claiming Intrigue. It seems fair to assume that nothing short of Dweomerheart instantaneously becoming a seething, planes-unmaking vortex, rather than building up over passing moments (i.e., giving him time to withdraw), would be enough to prevent him from reaping his due there if deicide is such an automatic source of entitlement re: portfolio acquisition.Just because Cyric was weak, doesn't mean Mask wasn't weaker; Cyric was still a greater deity, while Mask had fallen to lesser deity. This is quite different from trying to claim the divine essence/power/portfolio of a deity who's death has just triggered an apocalypse, starting with the annihilation of the plane they were on. Comparing the fall of Zhentil Keep to the Spellplague is rather a weak analogy anyway. No, I think he was rather counting on the aftershocks. He's lived through the time of troubles. He knows what it means for the mistress of the Weave to be weakened, and cheerfully imagine what it means for her to be dead. No matter what kind of idiot you do/don't consider Cyric to be, using that kind of fallout as cover doesn't require much intellectual sophistication.I rather doubt anyone could count on that fallout of Mystra's assassination since it was an event unprecedented. Karsus's Fall itself pales, and the Time of Troubles quite localized, especially when regarding the effect on the planes and deities. Of course, that's perfectly consistent with the lack of perplexity you've shown concerning Azuth and Velsharoon still being alive somewhere out there in the Astral.The status of Azuth and Velsharoon is unknown, other than their location. Not sure what that has to do with how Cyric was able to perform his getaway.
Vasyek 10-22-07, 08:24 AM	Contract-signing is how devils do buisness. It's certainly a popular racket, both within hell itself and as a prevailing stereotype of what a devil's going to be up to. But it's not the only way they do business; not by a long shot. Indeed, being the pragmatists they are, they are likely to be quite aware of its limitations. It's not terribly sound from cost-return perspective relative to other means that don't lure with favors, wealth, power, or what have you (the more deft forms of manipulation, after all, aren't about getting people to do what you want in spite of their misgivings, but getting them to do what you want while thinking it was their idea), it's not as productive as alternatives such as subverting faiths, political policies, social ideologies, and so forth, it tends to remove the option of acting through proxy at some point or another, seeing as hell has a reputation to protect and can't recognize just anyone as a legitimate purveyor of their contracts, that in turn increases the risk to the devils, given how well-tread a classic devil's bargains are, the overture itself may heighten the wariness of the shrewder (and thus more valuable) potential 'clients', and when it does work, there's that pesky matter of the contractees trying to wriggle free of their end of the bargain. They corrupt mortals in all kinds of ways....but contracts is how the deal is sealed. In some cases, not all. Contracts are a short cut to corruption, but ultimately not a viable substitute for the reasons I've stated. Tyr wouldn't view that form of anarchism as benign; one wonders if its possible for him to view any form of anarchism as benign. I was referring to it as benign in a more objective sense: in that it honestly believed that everyone would be better off without any laws tying them down and sought to encourage such a state for this reason, which also served to temper the manner in which they proceed. But yeah, I think Tyr can view certain forms of Anarchism as benign: benign in the sense that a tumor can be. He doesn't have to like it, but the anarchism you described, in which they avoid strife, will have one of two consequences if its intent is followed: it will lead its adherents divorcing themselves from the societies and laws they find so constraining to form law-free communes as they fit, or it will lead its adherents to attempt to sway others to their view. The former is something Tyr can shrug off completely, considering the injustice that forcing them to be part of the society would entail, and the latter is restrained in its offense by their aversion to fomenting strife, which correspondingly limits the ways in which he can justifiably act against to it. In other words, she opposes conformity and tyrrany. This is a far cry from anything as anarchistic as the belief that no one has authority over you, and laws and government are inherently wrong. Seeing as there's no such thing as a government or set of laws that does not demand some level of conformity, it's not such a far cry at all. Neither she nor our hypothetical socially responsible anarchists are going to be resorting to any means of opposition that are too violent or radical, and both recognize personal liberty as virtues above order. Murder is considered one of the hallmarks of evil. Anarchy does not equal evil or conflict, law does not equal good or peace. It's a parallel that follows the same reasoning you employed. I'm not trying to equate anarchy with murder or evil here and I'm certainly not trying to equate law with good or peace. The point of the parallel is to illustrate that 'not being obliged to agree' with something has no bearing on the nature of a thing unless the thing in question is inherently subjective. Murder isn't and neither is strife. the battle between Tyr and a god of anarchy may or may not have a good-evil component (I doubt Valygar was any better than Chaotic Neutral, at best), but it was first and foremost a battle between law and chaos, a conflict as real as any match-up of good and evil. A conflict can be plenty real without involving the clash of armies or life and death struggle between the principle agents. Indeed, in divine and ideological conflict, life and death can be mere trifles compared to the affirmation/refutation of the causes themselves. Tyr wouldn't kill Valigan on the basis of his portfolio/philosophy alone (if was Anarchy in the sense of the philosophy rather than the phenomenon), because in doing so he would essentially be lending credence to Thirdborn's repudiation of authority. Tyr would only kill him if circumstances forced him to or his behavior provided Tyr with a sound basis for leveling the assertion that he deserved to die. Just because anarchists conflate law with tyranny, doesn't make all law tyranny. Just because the lawful conflate anarchy with all manner of negative conotations doesn't make it inherently violent or proponents of strife. But it's not the opposition's application of the connotations to either that would make them false. Tyranny cannot be reasonably attributed to all forms/expressions of law as the term's meaning stands in common parlance, that's true. From the perspective that all forms of legal authority are intolerably coercive, however, the connotation stands. It's still not necessarily correct, but the perspective itself is what important here because of what follows from it. They are rebellious....in the eyes of law. In their own view, law is in itself wrong and those calling them rebellious are the ones in opposition to how things should be. And their own view would not change the fact that they are rebellious, only go a ways toward explaining why they rebel. Rebellion isn't a matter of opposing of how things should be; resisting a form of authority, tradition, or control is an act of rebellion. It doesn't have to be one you recognize as valid. Indeed, if you recognized it as valid you probably wouldn't be rebelling against it in the first place. Anarchy does not have to be in favor of conflict or struggle. Any rational being is going to recognize that conflicts can and will ensue. Any reasonable being is going to acknowledge that laws and the penalties associated with violating them can and often do provide a deterrent to the sorts of transgressions that people would otherwise commit. A categorical rejection of laws will likely rest on premises such as these: a) laws will invariably produce more conflict than they resolve, or b) even acknowledging the security that laws can provide, they are not worth the price they force us to pay. The first stand's claim requires the assumption of certain perspectives in order to hold, such as the vilification of those in positions of authority/authority itself, that people given the freedom to act as they please will not be disposed to infringe upon the freedoms of others to any prevailing extent, and/or the presence of imposition itself is the source of conflict. These can obviously work together, and indeed I think the third might be forced to rely on the second, but this is dragging on enough already so I'll only consider them individually in the hopes that what I say will apply in conjunction as well. -For the first, I say that the vilification is necessary because there seem to be laws that are not so arbitrary/unjust as to serve more as provocation than mediation or deterrent. Such vilification obviously isn't going to do much good for the relationship between the anarchist(s) and proponents of law, hence conflict, and it isn't really justified to begin with outside of certain cases, hence active or unwitting favor of said conflict. It'd be another story if they only opposed laws that were arbitrary and/or unjust, but that isn't anarchism, that's a call for reform. -The second might even be true, in isolated cases. However, a categorical rejection of law insists that anarchy should be universal. Not necessarily that the anarchist(s) has/have any personal duty to make that happen, but that nonetheless that it should. Problem is, there's really no way that this assumption would be true if anarchy were the prevailing state of things. People just aren't that nice to begin with, and the needs/desires that compel them (from the basics such as sustenance to the abstracts like recognition) would change their minds even if they were. Without commonly accepted and enforceable standards of behavior/interaction, actions will proceed on the basis of individual discretion alone. Desperate and unsatisfied people are not going to do well by others, they may not even concern themselves with trying in the first place, and transgressions have a way of escalating over time. So then come the reactive transgressions, followed by more reactive transgressions, and inevitably preemptive transgressions as well intermittently throughout the stages. This isn't something that's hard to see, it's something you have to actively turn away from in order to 'miss'. Hence, a case of tacit acceptance of conflict made tacit favor by the rejection of structures that could minimize it. -The third, as I said, tends to rely upon the assumptions of the second, and will be proven false by the first case of conflict emerging between those unbound by the strictures of law. Seeing as that first case probably occurred somewhere around the dawn of time and has been repeated throughout history to the extent that only extraordinary cases such as complete isolation from all other living things would leave one without first-hand exposure to events of this nature, it returns to the willful cultivation of ignorance and thus tacit favor of conflict. -The second stance is not unlike the second premise of the first, though it is less deluded. By its nature it necessarily holds conflict to be a lesser evil when compared to that of bondage, and like the previous case, amounts to the tacit favor of this 'lesser evil'. None of the perspectives are necessarily reveling in the conflict, but that simply doesn't matter. Anarchy can cause strife....because it is opposed by law. Now I wouldn't want to do the things I've been scolding you for, so I'll ask: when you say that, do you mean to suggest that anarchy causes strife only when laws are around to oppose it? Just because something is opposed, does not mean it hasto be equal to strife. Good is opposed by evil, after all; it is not the same as strife. And if the reasoning was that being opposed by something makes it the same thing as Strife, you might even have a point here. Unfortunately, it's not. The reasoning isn't even that something that inevitably leads to Strife, regardless of whether it's opposed by something outside of its framework or simply left to its own devices, is Strife. I'll remind you, that while I have deemed the notion of the Anarchy portfolio referring to the idea that there shouldn't be laws interesting enough to dispute the consequences that emerge from it, I am not operating under the assumption that that is in fact the sense in which they meant anarchy. I also dont believe strife and rebellion are the same things; Nor do I. Listing them as Strife/Rebellion is merely a way to indicate one or the other as applicable to the response. So Cyric can keep the line between Strife and War, and Tempus can keep the line between War and Strife, but Anarchy cannot be kept from Strife, Strife cannot be kept from Rebellion? We're not going to agree at all as far as that goes. Strife can be kept distinct from Rebellion. Rebellion will essentially lead to some degree of Strife, but is nonetheless distinct as a particular action that will cause Strife in the same way that Murder is a particular action that will cause Death. Anarchy as a philosophy is form in which Rebellion might be expressed, but is not distinct from Rebellion as it is merely a particular rationale for it rather than an action that leads to it. Anarchy as political and social disorder due to absence of governmental is not something that exists outside of Strife at all, it is a particular kind of Strife. Anarchy as confusion, chaos, and disorder are another particular kind of Strife. Anarchy as a state of society without government or law is indeed meaningfully distinct from both Rebellion or Strife, though it will almost certainly perpetuate both of them to varying degrees, but eludes them merely to become a particular kind of Freedom. And yet it is specifically mentioned in Faiths and Avatars that "Sharess is well aware of the fine--dark--line between her portfolio and that of Loviatar and jelously guards her domain from the Maiden of Pain." So Sharess herself disagrees that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Sharess disagrees, the portfolios of demigods aren't something they can withdraw access to if their betters want a piece of them. If Loviatar was set on establishing herself as a goddess with those portfolios, it wouldn't be Sharess standing in her way, but her mistress Sune. Well, you make a statement with deep implications as if its an obvious and minor fact. You may not be saying that Shar being able to do that puts the bearer of intrigue under Shar's power, but Shar being able to do that does indeed put the bearer of intrigue under her power. This is a huge advantage; using the knowledge of what they're doing and how they're doing it, she can assist or halt any scheme the bearer of that portfolio puts forth. The implications are dire, to be sure, but not absolute. Given that she's a flawed being with exhaustible resources, time and energy included, that's pretty obvious. Within her available means, she can act upon the insights she gains. Too bad for her she's limited in how she can respond to them by a number of factors: -Intrigues by the god's faithful need to be countered in kind for the most part, and Shar's church is quite limited in manpower compared to the churches of other greater gods, besides maybe Talos and the Elemental gods, and probably a fair number of the intermediates' churches as well. They can supplement this through manipulation of others, but their proxies are not going to be as reliable in most cases as the faithful themselves; Sharrans are good at what they do, but not perfect by any means. The same thing basically applies to cases involving the god of intrigue acting personally, but the number of people she can truly count on in that case is reduced to one and personal involvement carries far more risks for her. -It works both ways, as there are few Sharran secrets that will not involve intrigue. Shar's probably stronger than the deity, which will mean she can block this, but it's unfeasible to do so all the time and under the right/wrong circumstances the very act of doing so could bring her the attention she's trying to avoid. -There will be important intrigues that she simply cannot influence or intercept. Her reach doesn't extend as far as she'd like people to think. Extensive forays into other territories, for instance, might aversely affect projects that she can't readily discard back even if the risks weren't enough to make her shy off. -On a similar note, the god of intrigue is far from the only one she needs to keep her eyes on. Shar has no real allies; anyone could be hoping to ax her at any moment. That's one hell of an inundation of portfolio sense blips right there, and there'll still be the overtures and events that she can't perceive through this sense of hers. A number of them could be unrelated yet occurring in close conjunction time-wise, stretching both her followers and her personal resources/faculties thin in the process of attending to those she can. As well as struggling to prepare for the things she can't predict... for gods in general, but especially for gods like Shar, the scope of their powers and senses is bound to make the unknown that much more terrifying and oppressive. There's probably more that I'm not considering here, but that should be enough. The God of Intrigue succeeds or fails in intrigues at the whim of another deity. That just seems wrong. I thought so too when the notion was first presented to me, but then I realized it wasn't at her whim. To be honest I'm still not altogether thrilled with it, though the idea of her stewing in vexation over things she can't prevent or control in spite of being able to see them before they've even occurred is amusing to me. And why is this never mentioned, even in write-ups of what she can do with her portfolio sense? I'm not quite sure how I should interpret this question, so I'll answer it both ways that come to mind: -Oh, I suppose you mean how it only says she can sense any act of treachery or nihilism? If you believe that's supposed to be exclusive, I guess you also think that Cyric's portfolio sense doesn't apply to illusions, Torm's doesn't apply to obedience or duty beyond that of chivalry, Lolth's doesn't apply to darkness, spiders, or assassination, and Malar can't sense bloodlust. Fact of the matter is, some gods get the full spread typed out in there and some don't. There's no apparent rhyme or reason to it; if they actually didn't mean for Shar to be able to detect secrets, or know what's happening under the cover of darkness, or learn of the things people forget, and so forth because they felt it'd be far too expansive, then they wouldn't let Cyric sense all lies and falsehoods, or Bane sense any event involving hatred, tyranny, or fear (presumably not strife as well since that was errata'd.) Fear's the real kicker there... you think it's bad if Shar can detect secrets, just think of the staggering array of things, Secrets and Intrigue included, that will end up involving some level of fear. -Oh, I suppose you mean it doesn't specifically say her portfolio sense applies to gods? For one thing, it doesn't specifically say that portfolio senses don't, which admittedly would be too weak to even be worth mentioning if not for the fact there's a Block Sensing ability common to all gods (check the SRD if you don't believe me) which specifies the conditions under which, surprise surprise, another god's senses can be blocked. As far as opposing goes, he was a deity with a church, who was underneath Zentil Keep, which as I recall was a rather active place with regards to Cyric. As far as opposing goes, if you're considering what followers he may have had and what they'd have been up to, then that still doesn't amount to much of anything. He had two major strikes against him as far as drawing any substantial flock to him goes: being bound within the earth for as long as he has would leave him ridiculously obscure, and he was portfolioless at the time, which means he really didn't stand for or preside over anything in the way the real deities do (which in turn cuts back on the motivation for those few who even know who he is to worship him.) If he were allowed to expand it, he might have been able to compensate over time, but there's no way in hell Bane would tolerate that and after he died he was in an even worse position with Cyric. On the other hand, maybe he could make up for a scant number of followers if there were enough of them that were exceptional. If there were, they didn't manage anything worth noting in spite of that. Assorted little set-backs for and assassinations of Cyricists here and there, perhaps, but that isn't exactly going to be setting him ahead of the pack as far as opposition goes. Wasn't the fall of Zentil Keep, which freed Iyachtu, part of what weakened Cyric? Xvim was very nicely poised to take advantage of Cyric, Not all that nicely poised compared to other gods who could see it coming and prepare to act upon it before it came to pass. someone he had particular reason for opposing. Not only do I question whether this is significant, I question whether this is even true to begin with. I'm sure he felt like he had a particular reason to oppose Cyric, but compared to the other gods? So he's Bane's son and he desperately wanted to usurp his dad's legacy. Big deal. Loviatar was Bane's slave and likely desperately wanted to accumulate enough power to be her own master, to say nothing of how appealing her portfolios must look to Cyric and the relative ease with which he could dispose of her. Gargauth is estranged from everyone, and would have not only be prone to covet the Tyranny and Hatred portfolios rather intensely because they're perfectly in line with his existing ones but also because the power they afford him could easily spell the difference between life and death in a multiverse where his existence is, at best, provisionally tolerated. As with Loviatar, his portfolios would compliment Cyric's own quite well, and given his isolation/lower stature, he has even more reason to fear death at Cyric's hands. Talos formerly held Strife, and doubtless covets it every bit as strongly as Xvim covets his father's power; that'd be reason enough to seize the moment on its own, but even failing that and ending up with Tyranny and Hatred as a consolation prize, he would be able to strengthen his hold over the Gods of Fury and gain more power/further outlets through which to oppose his hated enemy Lathander. I'm not. Oh, Cyric killed Mystra, someone he's had a grudge against since they were mortals? Must be Shar at work. Ah, you're doing it again. I'll try patience this time I suppose, but I really do hope you can learn something from this. Cyric has a grudge against Mystra, sure. For the past decade and a half or however long, he has been unable to kill her though. Suddenly Mystra dies in the heart of her own realm. People are going to wonder what went different this time, and to that end they are going to consider possibilities. Among those possibilities will be that Cyric had help. Who are likely candidates there? Other gods who'd like to see Mystra dead and don't have a problem working with Cyric. Among the gods who'd like to see Mystra dead, the ones who aren't weak enough to be completely at his mercy (lesser deities and demigods) are more likely to not have a problem working with Cyric. Evil intermediates are a fair possibility, with the likely exception of Mask, and of the intermediates the most likely is probably Beshaba, since Umberlee's involvement would basically mean Talos' involvement as well and there's no way in hell Cyric would trust his back to the both of them. More likely still is a god powerful enough to not be overly concerned with the possibility of incurring the wrath of one of Cyric's many, many enemies by conspiring with him, which basically means a greater god (and as an evil greater god, most of Cyric's enemies would probably hate them already.) Bane's a pretty low possibility and the chances of him being able to conceal his involvement while Cyric's was plain are even lower, if Talos partnered up with Cyric it would essentially be a forgone conclusion that they'd already know it, and then there's Shar. Shar's always hated Mystra, doesn't matter which version as they're all an impediment to her goals and a continuing reminder of the sweet nothingness that was torn away from her, and recently she and Mystra have been butting heads over the Shadow Weave. What's more, Cyric and Shar have worked together in the past on numerous occasions, albeit through their churches. They've even shared a cleric between them, and it's not hard to guess that she is trying, has tried, or will try to lure him over to the Shadow Weave (I'll explain this too if you really want me to.) So Shar as a collaborator in this event? Quite the distinct possibility. One they'd be wise not to ignore. I hate to drive it home further since this probably really didn't need to be paragraphs long, but I want to make it perfectly clear where the disconnect occurs in the hope that you'll catch yourself in the future before it happens again. The moment you converted 'distinct possibility they'd be wise not to ignore' to 'must be Shar at work', you failed to present any kind of dispute against the points I've raised. I rather think they could come up with something. Orcus has plenty of enemies left despite having had the Last Word; why wouldn't Cyric? Orcus as Tenebrous was a quasi-deity, for starters. He couldn't even keep the Last Word from slowly destroying him since he wasn't a full god, let alone be in multiple places at a given time. Not to mention that just because Cyric himself could get into an opposed divine realm, doesn't mean an avatar could replicate the feat. It was an avatar that performed the intrusion in the event I mentioned. Gods didn't even have true forms back then in any physical sense, so there was nothing else it could have been. It might have been a particularly potent avatar, since they were handled differently back then, but if it were vested with the anything close to or over half of his power, it would have been a shock worthy of internal narration for Kelemvor. So if not three dead, then two. In addition, I stated Cyric may have found a version of the Last Word, not neccesarily the exact same phenomena Orcus wielded. That being the case, the properties of what Cyric was weilding would be unknown and unpredictable, especially since the whole thing would be a false lead concocted by the combined deities of darkness, secrecy, forgetfulness, lies, intrigue, and deception. I'd be inclined to let the hand-waving pass if we weren't dealing with gods here. Thing is, we are. Faced with 'evidence' of a derivation of the Last Word being in Cyric's hands, they'd almost be assured to send an avatar, servitor deity, or at least proxy to Oghma's neck of the woods to gather any and all information he has available on the Last Word to aid in formulating a plan of action against it. They wouldn't count on Cyric doing something so convenient as cooling his heels back in his realm if they believed he had such a dangerous weapon, not when there are some many gods out there just aching to be killed, and that means they have to at least prepare for the eventuality of having to confront him rather than taking it for granted that they'll be able to lock him in somewhere from the outside. That leaves Shar and Cyric with two options. One would be devising the evidence concerning this version of the Last Word in the hopes of provoking a reckless and immediate response (in which case using the Last Word, or even a version thereof, was probably a bad idea to begin with given the existence of quirks like self-preservation), but that means it's going to be easier to debunk; the other would be is place an emphasis on conforming the evidence to nuances that could potentially arise from versions of the Last Word, but that limits the ways in which they can contrive the evidence and even here there's no guarantee they can pull one over on Oghma. A compromise between the two is likely to screw them on both counts. And what's more, the idea of Cyric obtaining a version of the last word is going to raise questions as to where/how, which again leads to suspicions (read, not certainties) against lil' Ms. Ancient and Malign Goddess of Secrets. Of course, I'm not talking about the original Godsbane, but an artifact created for the purpose of killing deities from the remains of dead deities. Ok, just so long as we're clear it'd have to be seriously juiced up. Not that I'm sure the remains of dead deities would count as any special medium for creating god-slaying artifacts, given how few of those the Githyanki seem to possess (astral silver is mined from god corpses, in case you didn't know), but at least it's thematic. Cyric has already created an artifact capable of warping deity minds, unintentionally, out of whole cloth. With exotic components through exotic means? I'll tell you what he couldn't do with this new artifact: prevent people from realizing that he was making it in the first place. No more than he could keep them from catching on to the Cyrinishad. Given the number of deities this would directly relate to on various levels, but mostly relation to portfolios via the process or intent, I don't think there's much of a chance that Cyric alone could prevent people from discovering what he was up to before it was done. Certainly not from Mystra herself, which again leads to the consideration of the possibility, among others, that Cyric had help. Velsharoon is stated as reinstating an alliance with Talos right in the wake of using his alliance with Azuth to break ties with Talos before Talos could burn him out, and as using this to play Azuth and Mystra against Talos (and vice versa) for his own benefit. Velsharoon is, in essence, already a double (triple?) agent in the middle of Dweomerheart. Rather sounds like a good candidate for betrayal. Honestly, if I didn't believe that this was all true I'd be accusing you of having an unflattering opinion of him. Trying to play Mystra against Talos with full knowledge of what Talos intended to do to him even before he ****** Talos off by running away before he could get eaten just isn't smart. Even so, it stands to reason he's parleying with Talos from a safe distance, something he wouldn't be able to count on with Cyric in this case once the plan goes into motion. He has as much power over his divine realm as any deity. Any demi-god with a greater goddess who doesn't trust him for a superior, a lesser god breathing down his neck, and a demi-god of prophecy right next door; all within a plane ruled by that same greater goddess. What I'd like to say is there's absolutely no way in hell that Velsharoon could pull it off, even with Cyric's help, but will instead content myself with the more conservative: “the possibility of Velsharoon being any real asset here is so staggeringly remote that you can't even compare it to a Cyric-Shar alliance.” Once the deities find the clear and ample (and false) evidence of how Cyric accomplished his deed, how could Shar still be the obvious reason Cyric was able to accomplish his deed? Depends. Your examples so far aren't cutting it, that's for sure. I can believe that Shar and Cyric could come up with something better, sure, but by the same token I can believe that the other gods can eye these or similar explanations with levels and nuances of to their critical evaluations that I haven't even dreamed off so it tends to balance out. What that means, I suppose, is I'll believe in such evidence when/if you manage to compose it. Baravar Cloakshadow isn't the head of the gnomish pantheon, Garl Glittergold is. Oops, I should really keep better track of which gnomish deity is which I suppose. he's just a member of a seperate pantheon which has a different sphere of influence. That's my point exactly. Remember when I was talking about what a drag it'd be for Sune take over as goddess of illusions? The fact that this guy presides over a smaller population that's about 50% neutral good spares him the same sort of ordeal. If the influence the lingering bits of Leira adhered to the portfolio of illusion would make little dent on the Greater Goddess that is Sune, it would be irrelevant. I suppose it would be, but that's not how it works. Considering that it's mentioned here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fr/20010214c) that the absorption of powerful portfolios is among the reasons for Cyric's prior insanity. Two interpretations of what makes a powerful portfolio: the god who held it, or how pervasive it was. Given that his behavior only becomes erratic (it was conceited and ruthless before, if the Banedeath was any indication, but not erratic) after he killed Leira, a decade after he ascended, I side with the latter. That is not to say she'd turn into Leira, much as I wish experience didn't prove that I have to stress that here, but it's going to dilute the person she was, leave her open to alien and often repulsive sensations, and quite possibly temper her pursuit of Love with the concerns of Deception/etc. in much the same way she'll attempt the reverse. Mask is and was more powerful than Leira, but Lathander would quite likely be a difficult deity for a remnant of Mask to eclipse. I disagree. I don't see Intrigue as being as pervasive as Lies and Deception and thus not as powerful, but Lathander would be tempted to rely on it more extensively than Sune would Illusions and the rest as it could prove such an asset (setting aside, for the moment, the less desirable implications of using it) toward hatching his Deliverance scheme. Then there's how blind he is to his own flaws and excesses to begin with; he could very well end up affected before he even realizes it. That is not to say he'd turn into Mask, much as I wish experience didn't prove that I have to stress that here, but it's going to dilute the person he was, leave him open to alien and often repulsive sensations, and quite possibly temper his pursuit of Renewal with the concerns of Intrigue in much the same way he'll attempt the reverse. Just because Cyric was weak, doesn't mean Mask wasn't weaker; Cyric was still a greater deity, while Mask had fallen to lesser deity. While in this case, Cyric was still a greater deity, suffering from no god-enslaving artifacts or widespread destruction of his followers in his own realm and within the highest earthly concentration of his worship, let alone being immolated by his failed scribes, and Mystra was dead. This is quite different from trying to claim the divine essence/power/portfolio of a deity who's death has just triggered an apocalypse, starting with the annihilation of the plane they were on. This assumes a couple of things you really have no business assuming. One: Dweomerheart didn't rapidly atrophy upon Mystra's death, affording Cyric the handful of seconds it would require for him to teleport away, it simply vanished and instantaneously brought about the Spellplague, at least within this plane's radius. Two: even if it did, it would be enough to keep Cyric from escaping before the effects exerted any real strain on him/seizing the portfolios anyway. Comparing the fall of Zhentil Keep to the Spellplague is rather a weak analogy anyway. You mean the sacking of Zhentil Keep, the madness of the Cyrinishad, and his forced departure from his own realm? In the ways relevant to the issue it's not weak at all. The Spellplague is obviously an event on a far greater scale, but it's hardly assured to be as, let alone more, harrowing on a personal level for Cyric. We're talking about external duress so extreme that it left him scarred beyond even the ability of divine illusions to conceal; internal duress so extreme that it left him alternating between paralyzing delusions of grandiosity, in the sense that they led him to become so obscenely derelict in his duties that they could put him on trial for it, and the senseless ravaging of his own church for two years. If anything's weak here, it's your attempt to brush the comparison off. I rather doubt anyone could count on that fallout of Mystra's assassination since it was an event unprecedented. Karsus's Fall itself pales, and the Time of Troubles quite localized, especially when regarding the effect on the planes and deities. Affecting the prime alone on any level comparable to or in excess of the chaos wrought by the Time of Troubles, considering just how much panic would quickly emerge from the occurrence of all spells functioning as wild magic, would be sufficient. Then add in the termination of some existing magic items/effects and erratic shifting of others, random and drastic shifts in the landscape, potentially lethal ones at that, the ground itself spawning bizarre and often predatory creatures... yeah, a simple return to that would've done the trick just fine, and Cyric knew that this would be worse. How much worse? Hard to say, but worse enough to be confident that the other gods wouldn't be able to turn their full attention to him for good long while. The status of Azuth and Velsharoon is unknown, other than their location. If they were dead they'd have said they were dead. You know it. I know it. Status: Unknown in pretty much any form of entertainment means alive until proven otherwise. Not sure what that has to do with how Cyric was able to perform his getaway. It has more to do with the question of whether he'd even need to in the first place. Greater gods are a damned sight more resilient than demigods. A torrent of planar chaos that wouldn't vaporize the two of them outright is not going to kill Cyric.
SgtAnjay 10-22-07, 01:45 PM	This is what I think, because of these reasons. No, you're wrong, this is what I think because of these reasons. No, you're wrong, this is what I think because of these reasons. No, you're wrong, this is what I think because of these reasons. No, you're wrong, this is what I think because of these reasons. Ad infinitum. I'd say ad nauseum, but considering how bloody we've beaten this, the state of nauseum probably passed a long time ago for most. Plus, your happy little comments about how patient you have to be and state things so simply and humour me by actually entertaining my points as we counter each other over and over are going to cause ugliness on my part sooner rather than later. So, suffice it to say, our ideas are incompatible and will remain so as we have little to no agreements on even the most basic points of the workings of deities. It was an interesting exercise, but long past due for a closing. :tiphat: