Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azar_of_Faerun 01-05-07, 12:38 AM	Howdy all, Assuming you do, what words or quotes do you use to defend the Forgotten Realms as a campaign setting? it's been called cliche, unrealistic, contrived, too high magic and the like...but so what? It's fun, and there are some neat twists on Earth history integrated in (such as the gods in MUlhorand and Thay) I really need some ammo here, help a fellow player out :D
Ramenth 01-05-07, 02:51 AM	I dunno. I think the simpliest way of defending it against being 'cliche' is pointing out that it's old enough that it helped create the cliche's. Calling the realms Cliche is in line with (Though not nearly as bad as) calling LoTR cliche.
Old Sage 01-05-07, 03:20 AM	With regard to supposed connections between the Realms and Earth history... Certain comments made by Ed, over at Candlekeep are, for the most part, enough for me. He's taken the time to share with us some of his inner-most thoughts regarding the creative processes involved in giving birth to the Realms. Especially, I have a particular fondness for two very important replies from Ed in April '06 that not only serve to illustrate how the core elements of Ed's original Realms (first conceived in 1967) came about, but also, how his ideas evolved over time to become purely "Realmsian." And that should be, ultimately, enough to put to rest most poorly-conceived comments made by people who still continue to think parts of Ed's Realms are nothing more than facsimiles of Earth-based cultures and historical periods. 'Nuff said.
MarkusTay63 01-05-07, 03:36 AM	The best defense in one word? DEEP I was a Greyhawk player for years, and although I loved the setting with its brightly colored maps and over-the-top characters and sheer goofiness, there wasn't much beneath the surface. The Realms go DEEP. You scratch at it, and uncover a little more, you scratch some more, and you find yet more. Unlike most worlds that just have a width and height, the realms have a depth to them, with a solid foundation and full sweeping history. older settings, and 'New and Improved' settings just don't have that feeling. You scratch at Eberron, and your gonna see your tablecloth underneath.
Evergreen_Aldaron 01-05-07, 08:20 AM	The best defense in one word? DEEP I was a Greyhawk player for years, and although I loved the setting with its brightly colored maps and over-the-top characters and sheer goofiness, there wasn't much beneath the surface. The Realms go DEEP. You scratch at it, and uncover a little more, you scratch some more, and you find yet more. Unlike most worlds that just have a width and height, the realms have a depth to them, with a solid foundation and full sweeping history. older settings, and 'New and Improved' settings just don't have that feeling. You scratch at Eberron, and your gonna see your tablecloth underneath. That is VERY well said. :clap: The Realms timeline and depth of history is what separates it from everything else. SO much depth. Feels like a real world, not a shiny, transparent backdrop for stand alone adventures. Gritty and real.
Bluenose 01-05-07, 08:29 AM	The best defense in one word? DEEP I was a Greyhawk player for years, and although I loved the setting with its brightly colored maps and over-the-top characters and sheer goofiness, there wasn't much beneath the surface. The Realms go DEEP. You scratch at it, and uncover a little more, you scratch some more, and you find yet more. Unlike most worlds that just have a width and height, the realms have a depth to them, with a solid foundation and full sweeping history. older settings, and 'New and Improved' settings just don't have that feeling. You scratch at Eberron, and your gonna see your tablecloth underneath. This is going to seem like I'm bashing, but if you use that as a way to defend the Realms then you'll run into problems. Other settings have plenty of "depth" to them as well, if you mean history and background. You might try to argue that the history is better thought out, but then you're running into the realm of opinion. If you want to defend the Realms as a setting, I'd base my arguments on the things that make it unique. That includes the high-magic theme; the unusually wide range of cultures and deities; the sheer amount of material describing the setting; and let people discover that there's more to it than the cliched high-fantasy world for themselves.
BadCatMan 01-05-07, 08:32 AM	I've tried, but most people who criticise FR have already made their minds up, and refuse to be swayed by any amount of information to the contrary. I find it's the same way with most things in this world. Cliche: It's D&D. Everything in D&D is a cliche of some kind. Then everything is cliche. Unrealistic: Duh. Magic. Contrived: No, it's come together mainly by natural evolution it seems. High Magic: Who cares? I recall a line from an old computer games magazine [PC Gamer], about making great computer games. "You can do something new well, or something old perfectly." For me, Eberron is the former, FR is the latter. (Of course, both do have flaws. But so does everything.)
MerrikCale 01-05-07, 09:18 AM	I agree with "Deep". There is so much richness and depth to the setting, you're choices are limitless in what you can do.
MarkusTay63 01-05-07, 11:14 AM	This is going to seem like I'm bashing, but if you use that as a way to defend the Realms then you'll run into problems. Other settings have plenty of "depth" to them as well, if you mean history and background. You might try to argue that the history is better thought out, but then you're running into the realm of opinion. If you want to defend the Realms as a setting, I'd base my arguments on the things that make it unique. That includes the high-magic theme; the unusually wide range of cultures and deities; the sheer amount of material describing the setting; and let people discover that there's more to it than the cliched high-fantasy world for themselves.I never mentioned history once. The history is just a small part of its 'depth', other things being those items you youserf point out. The cultures, the magic, the background material that gets into nitty gritty details, and even the map itself. Broad, sweeping, provocative... DEEP. When I read a story (non-FR) or play a video game, its just a 2-dimensional space I am looking into, but with the Realms I feel as if I have lived there my whole life. They have tried to incorporate these things into other settings, and so far have failed. I remember when they tried to Realmsify my beloved Greyhawk with the From the Ashes boxed set. They added war, betrayal, high magic, sinister evils... and all it did was kill it for me and so many others. That wasn't Greyhawk, it was Faerun, and it had its time in the sun. Who knows? Maybe 10 years from now Eberron will be 'deep', and I'll be wishing the Realms farewell. I'll go kicking and screaming like I did the last time, but change is inevitable.
Faraer 01-05-07, 11:46 AM	The only things I 'defend' the Realms against are demonstrable untruths and canards. Once I've pointed out misconceptions and directed people to relevant sources, they can think what they like. Good Realms sources speak more eloquently for the setting than I do.
wesleytj 01-05-07, 12:47 PM	...but so what? It's fun, I think that pretty much sums up my opinion on it. Why try to defend it, who cares what other people think. "So what, it's fun." Isn't that why you game? What others have said about the depth of the world is true as well. It has enough good background on it that you can really dig into it. Between 2nd ed sources and the new stuff, there are PLENTY of supplements to give you info on just about any are you can think of.
Bluenose 01-05-07, 01:14 PM	I never mentioned history once. "The Realms go DEEP. You scratch at it, and uncover a little more, you scratch some more, and you find yet more. Unlike most worlds that just have a width and height, the realms have a depth to them, with a solid foundation and full sweeping history." Again, I don't want to sound as if I'm bashing you in particular, but that was your third paragraph, where you were amplifying what you meant by DEEP, and I took it to mean that your major arguments was the history. Sorry for misunderstanding. The history is just a small part of its 'depth', other things being those items you youserf point out. The cultures, the magic, the background material that gets into netty gritty details, and even the map itself. Broad, sweeping, provocative... DEEP. I agree entirely. Claims though that these things are unique to the Realms don't work to persuade people, because they simply aren't true. While Realms sourcebooks go into lots of detail, so do DL and Eberron sourcebooks. The major reason there's more available for the Realms is that the setting has been in print for longer, which is one of the things that the Realms has in it's favour. When I read a story (non-FR) or play a video game, its just a 2-dimensional space I am looking into, but with the Realms I feel as if I have lived there my whole life. They have tried to incorporate these things into other settings, and so far have failed. I remember when they tried to Realmsify my beloved Greyhawk with the From the Ashes boxed set. They added war, betrayal, high magic, sinister evils... and all it did was kill it for me and so many others. That wasn't Greyhawk, it was Faerun, and it had its time in the sun. From the Ashes seemed to me like an attempt to awaken interest in a setting that seemed to be stagnant, but I'll admit that at the time I was more interested in Mystara and in developing my own campaign world. Who knows? Maybe 10 years from now Eberron will be 'deep', and I'll be wishing the Realms farewell. I'll go kicking and screaming like I did the last time, but change is inevitable. The only thing I'm convinced of is that your last three words are right. :D
kelcimer 01-05-07, 03:38 PM	The Realms is a good setting. It has it's faults and it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's still a good setting that serves it's purpose. I've described it as a campaign setting of a bunch of little campaign settings right next to each other. For the most part there is somewhere that any given person wouldn't mind playing in. Shotgun effect. Somethings bound to stick. The default place that most games seem to take place in is a "misc frontier". There are very many flavors of frontier to choose from. You can also game for many years in the setting and not even visit everything. There's always some place new (or at least new to the players) to go to. It also does a good job of being the default fantasy setting. It's a good first setting to get into to.
DreamStalker 01-05-07, 04:04 PM	Forgotten Realms is a little bit of everything, from the low powered to the high powered, with very in depth descriptions. Ed Greenwood made a very consistent very detailed world. Results since then have varied, has is to be expected once you hit a few dozen authors.
MarkusTay63 01-06-07, 02:44 PM	The only thing I'm convinced of is that your last three words are right. :DSorry, didn't even realize I used the word 'history'. ;) I thought about this AFTER I made that post, and I tried to figure out why I felt the way I do about the Realms. I have many of the Eberron products, and I really like many of the concepts, but I just don't get that 'familiar' feeling when I read them. Faerun is like an old friend, I may not know everyhting about him, or what he's done in the last year or so, but I still feel good every time I see him. I have a theory, although there is a good chance I may be wrong. I have been an avid reader of Dragon magazine since (I think) issue #17. Long before Ed sold FR to TSR, he was writing articles about it. I never knew the Realms existed when I was running Greyhawk, but I probably used an idea or three from Ed's articles. Years later, when I first started learning about the Realms (and it wasn't until it was already out for a while) it seemed somehow familiar. Now that I look back, I realize that somewhere in the back of my mind Ed must have planted the seed for that. If I was the paranoid type, I would think Mr. Greenwood was some sort of diabolical genius, and he used subliminal messages over the years so that when he was ready to unveil the Forgotten realms we would be drawn to it like moths to a candle. :D But I'm not paranoid (most of the time), so maybe this was just a fortunate accident. But then again, many people who have never read Dragon magazine love the Realms as much as me, so who knows? I was thinking that many players were probably exposed to realmsian lore through their DMs, either with magic or adventure material, but even that argument doesn't hold water. Many Realms fans have never even played the game. For whatever reason, everything else is 'just' a setting, but the Realms are alive, and I can 'almost' hear Elminster chuckling as I type this. :)
vezina 01-06-07, 03:14 PM	I agree entirely. Claims though that these things are unique to the Realms don't work to persuade people, because they simply aren't true. While Realms sourcebooks go into lots of detail, so do DL and Eberron sourcebooks. The major reason there's more available for the Realms is that the setting has been in print for longer, which is one of the things that the Realms has in it's favour. I don't know...I still feel like even without the masses of FR books available, FR is still a deeper setting. I think Eberron has the chance to be that once it has the sourcebooks for it, but, personally, I've always felt DL was really contrived and limited. I mean, come on, the kender, the elves...even the dwarves and gnomes to some extent. Instead of leaving open the option for kender to be whatever they wanted (like halflings everywhere else), the fact that the setting was based on one adventuring group means that 99% of kender played are going to be irresponsible, klepto-retards. Elves? Stuck-up, racist shut-ins. I can't remember too much more about the dwarves and gnomes but I know one of the two of them had the same problem going. DL was always just too limited and one-dimensional to me. Eberron has the "Unique" factor going for it right now. It puts a twist on a lot of old cliche races and the magic/technology genre as well. It has the chance to be deep, but at the moment it hasn't reached that potential yet. They've really only scratched the surface of what Eberron could be. FR, on the other hand, feels more fantastical in the genre's sense. It feels more like what high fantasy is supposed to be. (You can call high fantasy cliche, but that would be like calling "wearing clothing" cliche: if that's your thing, go for it, but most of us will stick with what we already do. Eccentrics are always the minority.) It has a great, expansive and for the most part consistent history, a huge range of cultures and deities(and not just for humans, either) and an ever expanded base of magic and classes to choose from (several good enough to actually make it into 'core' non-FR books...has to say something for the setting.)
Wellin_Adipocere 01-06-07, 03:25 PM	The one thing i can say to defend the realms is that it gives us what we want. Meaning that we all like to read these novels or play the campaign because there is such prevalent magic usage. Even if you are non-magic user supporter you want to play the FR to prove your might or wit against the biggest magic users of them all. Fantasy is all about the impossible being possible. If i wanted just hard earned battles i would play military games like axis and allies and read war novels. Deep down we all want magic in our campaigns and stories. That is what the realms provide.
MarkusTay63 01-06-07, 07:18 PM	I mean, come on, the kender, the elves...even the dwarves and gnomes to some extent. Instead of leaving open the option for kender to be whatever they wanted (like halflings everywhere else)... <snip>You may be right as far as playing there, I personally hated the one timed I adventured in Krynn (also had BAD DM), but don't knock the races because the background is lackluster. Kender - You said it, irresponsible, klepto-retards! Kagonesti - Elf retards! Tinker Gnomes - Retarded inventors Gulley dwarves - MORE RETARDS!!! Draconians - The original half-dragons (not reallly, but close enough) Minotaurs - Intelligent, civilized (sort of) Minotaurs! Irda - Beautiful Intellectual OGRES Lord Soth - Not a race, but a guy so cool they used him in TWO settings simulataneously (RL)! So as you can see, the races were pretty inventive. All the good guys were friggin' retards, and the bad guys were superior to normal versions and mega cool. Guess thats why they had so many 'ages', the good guys kept gettin' their butts kicked. :D Now you got me defending Dragonlance! And thats my third least-favorite settting. But Raistlin hangs out with El (wizard's three), so It's canon and I can go there. :P I have many books from many campaigns, and although I have liked most of them, I have only loved two. Greyhawk, because it was the original (although Mystarans might argue that), and Forgotten Realms. What can I say, the Realms just suck you in, they feel ALIVE.
GothicDan 01-07-07, 12:17 AM	I don't need to defend the Realms. It's marvelous in and of itself. People need to read and comprehend more. And that can be said about EVERYTHING, not JUST the Realms. It's like when you get a bunch of people on a message board trying to talk about physics when all they've read about the theories are from 'pop' books available to the public, with little or no actual mathematical or physics background.
Stigger 01-07-07, 03:01 AM	It's got the Volo books and the Aurora's Catalogue... what more do you need in a setting? :D All joking aside though, I do think of those small things as more important than the big sweeping histories and grand epic stories. Details is what it has going for it, details that make it feel more like a home and less like some window-dressing cookie cutter backdrop that's as easily disposed of as a used tissue.
Stigger 01-07-07, 03:02 AM	Oops... didn't mean to double post that.
kelcimer 01-08-07, 11:51 AM	I don't need to defend the Realms. It's marvelous in and of itself. People need to read and comprehend more. Congratulations. That kind of argument delivered to someone who doesn't have a rosy opinion of the realms is only going to harden their view against the realms.
GothicDan 01-08-07, 01:31 PM	It's much better than trying to argue with someone who already has his or her opinion formed. In my opinion, THAT only makes things worse. That's also why I'm against pretty much every uber-liberal active group out there. Both sides need to just look at the facts, IN DEPTH, and over time, whatever truth they feel is there will naturally arise. There's no point in trying to argue over purely opinion-based things.
Stigger 01-08-07, 04:08 PM	QFT GothicDan. Pity more people don't come to that conclusion. World would be much more pleasant.
kelcimer 01-08-07, 04:20 PM	It's much better than trying to argue with someone who already has his or her opinion formed. Which is only what Azar_of_Faerun was looking for help with... Both sides need to just look at the facts, IN DEPTH, and over time, whatever truth they feel is there will naturally arise. Real world issues? Sure. But this is a game. It's supposed to be fun. And if it's not fun for any given person, then why exactly should they look further? That there, is an unreasonable expectation. There's no point in trying to argue over purely opinion-based things.They why are you here?
GothicDan 01-08-07, 04:36 PM	Which is only what Azar_of_Faerun was looking for help with... And my response was basically, "Provide them with ample material to learn for themselves." The quickest way to incite rebellion is to force anything on someone. Real world issues? Sure. But this is a game. It's supposed to be fun. And if it's not fun for any given person, then why exactly should they look further? That there, is an unreasonable expectation. That is your opinion. I find it fun to look more into things. In other words: speak for yourself. I don't think you are the sole arbiter as to unreasonable expectations. Obviously, many of us feel that you had unreasonable expectations, too (judging from previous threads). Who's right? They why are you here? Because, until the semester starts again, I have absolutely nothing better to do. Or until about 7 pm every day, at least.
Jiggawha 01-08-07, 05:01 PM	I need arises to ''defend'' FR I'll use 2E books that's for sure I don't need to defend FR, just took a book called Secrets of Xen'drik, well I'm disappointed how some things are going
Kid SixXx 01-09-07, 01:49 PM	I really need some ammo here, help a fellow player out :D Arguing about game settings is like nuclear war. The only winning move is not to play. My thoughts are: 1. If X is the DM, then the folks will learn to enjoy the setting of X's choice since X is running the gaming table. 2. If X is the player & the majority want to run another setting, then X had best get with the program or find other people to game with. If X is sitting at my table, X had better learn to like Eberron. it's been called cliche, unrealistic, contrived, too high magic and the like... Indeed, so what? 1. Nearly every fantasy setting in general has its share of cliches. 2. It's fantasy. Who cares about realism? If I wan't realism and actual bruises, I'll go to my Krav Maga classes on Mon / Wed / Fri. 3. See comment on cliche in reference to being contrived.
kelcimer 01-09-07, 03:47 PM	That is your opinion. I find it fun to look more into things. In other words: speak for yourself. I don't think you are the sole arbiter as to unreasonable expectations. Obviously, many of us feel that you had unreasonable expectations, too (judging from previous threads). Who's right? I'm not sure what "many of us" means. Only a few poeple post on this board and I haven't seen a poll done. A few of you are much more hardcore about the Realms then I had imagined possible. This isn't discussing the pros and cons of the socialist model. I have done some mild research into socialism in South America. Got enough info to get an impression and confirm for myself that it's not all that interesting, at least not as interesting as the ongoing experiment in Europe. By your arguement I should have spent a couple years reading up on it. No thanks. Regardless I don't think a Realms Elitist is the right person to set the bar.
GothicDan 01-09-07, 04:17 PM	Precisely. That's why I'm telling people to read all of the information themselves and FIGURE IT OUT for themselves. Are you really trying to make a point, or specifically aiming to be obstinant here? And who is a Realms elitist, exactly? Personally, I'm an EVERYTHING elitist. I feel the same way about Eberron, Dragonlance, Planescape, and Dark Sun. You don't even want to get me started on my own worlds. I aim to do the best, know the best, and be the best in everything I take interest in.
MaskedOne 01-09-07, 06:47 PM	It has a great deal of magic and half-competent spellcasters. Add in a well-developed history and a handful of amusing characters and I'm happy. Then again a lot of people roaming around have a lower opinion of the characters and object to high magic settings so the selling points for me don't work as well for making a defense of the setting. Mostly I don't bother trying to defend the setting as a whole. Parts of it, I may try and defend for a variety of reasons ranging from fondness for them, to a distaste for poorly constructed plotlines attacking them or merely because I've seen a half dozen variants on a concept and have lost all patience with it. The setting as a whole, though, would take too much effort for too little gain.
kelcimer 01-09-07, 09:54 PM	Precisely. That's why I'm telling people to read all of the information themselves and FIGURE IT OUT for themselves. Are you really trying to make a point, or specifically aiming to be obstinant here? And who is a Realms elitist, exactly? Personally, I'm an EVERYTHING elitist. I feel the same way about Eberron, Dragonlance, Planescape, and Dark Sun. You don't even want to get me started on my own worlds. I aim to do the best, know the best, and be the best in everything I take interest in. Okay. Not everyone is like you and willing to do that. I'm very much into the X-Men. I have over 3000 comics. Most of them are X-men comics. I do not advocate reading all of it to a lay person. I'll recommend that they read the first 6 trade paperbacks (something like 45 issues worth) of Ultimate X-Men. If I'm able, I'll lend them to the person. I recommend them, because it's a quick enough read that is a complete story arch that basically puts the X-Men's best foot forward. I'll lend them the first trade or two. Sometimes I get them handed back to me, and sometimes they finish all six. I'm not asking them to spend anything (unless they don't live near me), I'm not asking much of their time, and all I ask is to give it a try. This is reasonable. (I've actually had two people decide they wanted to read all the X-Men material. I started them in 1975 and they read up through the early 90's. Both stopped because of life happening and they didn't get back to it.) You want to persuade someone? Be a good representative of the Realms and put it's best foot forward in a way that's easy on the person. If they get interested then they'll read up on it ad nauseam of their own accord. But you would have everyone read up ad nauseam to begin with. The realms isn't a comic and the X-Men ain't the realms, but I hope you get the idea. The best way to at least moderate a persons opinon of the Realms is to talk to them, and in conversation try to show them how you see the realms and why it's great for you and for other people. Maybe their first experience was under a bad DM, maybe the first few books they picked up were less then stellar, or maybe that part of the setting struck them as stupid. Maybe you can convince them to give a novel or two a try or maybe ask if they'd mind reading this source book over here that was written by someone who knows how to write. The objective is to get them to moderate their opinion of the realms, and maybe have it spark their imagination. I honestly can't think of a reason that could be solved by just having them read all the source material. That may work for some, but there isn't a blanket solution. Yeah, they may not have the most educated and exacting opinion of the realms, but what does that matter? If they've given the realms a fair hearing and it is failing in it's job to spark thier imagination, then that's all the person really needs to know. If the Realms doesn't do anything for them, then it doesn't do anything for them. Their time is valuable too, you know, and it's not unreasonable or unexpected for them to view that as a massive waste of time. The only person who should do anything approaching that is someone who plans to DM a game. If a person isn't a DM or the DM isn't excited about a setting, why should he know all about it? Hm?
Dark Wizard 01-09-07, 10:43 PM	In this regard, I think the Realms could help itself if in the next iteration of the FRCS it had an extensive section about the flavor/tone/atmosphere of the setting like Eberron has in its main campaign setting sourcebook. I think the setting has gotten so large that it needs the feel of the setting explained as much if not more so than Eberron does. It needs to narrow down the setting to the essentials before expanding it out to the peripheral areas and the side concepts introduced in the various regions.
GothicDan 01-09-07, 10:59 PM	I'm sorry. I'm unwilling to help anyone who isn't willing to help themselves in becoming more knowledgeable on a topic they're interested in. As far as I'm concerned, if they don't want to read up on the setting in the first place, then I'm not going to try to convince them otherwise.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-10-07, 12:36 AM	Sorry Dan, I like the Forgotten Realms. But that doesn't mean I eat cheese with soda crackers
GothicDan 01-10-07, 12:43 AM	I would certainly hope not! That would be an utterly illogical analogy, wouldn't it?
Azar_of_Faerun 01-10-07, 01:24 AM	LOL, I meant soda crackers :embarrass
Ramenth 01-10-07, 01:42 AM	Okay, I have to revise my opinion. Dan is completely right. Almost every person who critizies the realms as a whole (Not one aspect about them) is not going to change their mind. Indeed, it's equally likely to convinced an increadibly religious person to abandon faith in a god. Or hell; To try to convice Lolth that goddesses dont exist at all. Most people who bash the realms, bash them for being the realms. They bash them for being popular. They bash them for not being original. But, everyone knows that their own personally created world, which happens to have the same races, rough geography, names, and major characters is totally original.
kelcimer 01-10-07, 02:07 AM	BTW I'm in the process of changing my opinion of Dragonlance. Had a bad DM experience coupled with reading the first book. I'd been "I know a bunch of people love it, good for them, I don't want another setting to keep track of. Especially one that's been kinda crap in my experience." A player has talked it up a number of times and convinced me to try one of the books. Turns out I'm liking it, and I may at the very least have to reevaluate my opinion of Kender here in the near future.
Kid SixXx 01-10-07, 07:46 AM	I'm sorry. I'm unwilling to help anyone who isn't willing to help themselves in becoming more knowledgeable on a topic they're interested in. As far as I'm concerned, if they don't want to read up on the setting in the first place, then I'm not going to try to convince them otherwise. Yeah, let them heathens sit in the dark where they belong and draw pictures in the dirt with sharpened sticks! All kidding aside, I understand where you're coming from. Ultimately the name of the game is fun, and you can't have fun with a setting if folks are determined to bring conflict to the gaming table. Let folks gravitate to the setting that best represents their preferences and kill all of this "I must defend the setting with fire" stuff. Some of you make it sound like there is a shortage of nerds out there to sit at your gaming tables & that the undecided have to be dragged to the FR at all costs. That's kinda silly, but I also think it's unfair that FR people get stuck with the zealotry stigma when there are people like that in any pop culture niche. I never discuss RPG settings, politics, religion, music, or Star Wars with friends because the results are usually ugly. If you think that arguments about religion or politics are bad, you should hear the ones about Star Wars. Jesus, but you'd think that the Clone Wars were factual history.
GothicDan 01-10-07, 01:43 PM	Kid SixXx, you make a little happy point in my heart. And you've added a point back to the, "Maybe I'll look at Eberron some more" pool in my soul that my single recent visit to the Eberron boards so depleted. You should teach those people over there to be more receptive to differing opinions... ;) I'm a fan of Setting Elitism. But I'm a fan of it for EVERY SETTING. And everything, really. Everything elitism! /Sun Elf.
Faraer 01-10-07, 04:41 PM	I'm sorry. I'm unwilling to help anyone who isn't willing to help themselves in becoming more knowledgeable on a topic they're interested in.That doesn't mean the introductory setting book shouldn't do as good a job as possible of explaining what it's about. Which at this point, as Dark Wizard suggests, is a much more sophisticated task than just summarizing the details.
GothicDan 01-10-07, 04:48 PM	Very true, Faraer. You're absolutely right.
miscellany 01-10-07, 09:24 PM	The best way to get someone to like the Realms is to have them book some table time with my DM. He can convert anyone, even the *******s.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-12-07, 03:51 AM	Here is one of the arguments I heard yesterday Also, cultures that existed hundreds of years apart seperated by vast geographical boundaries in the real world are somehow capable of rubbing shoulders without massive wars breaking out in FR. Ivory Tower Mary Sue NPCs
Panurg 01-12-07, 07:15 AM	This is going to seem like I'm bashing, but if you use that as a way to defend the Realms then you'll run into problems. Other settings have plenty of "depth" to them as well, if you mean history and background. You might try to argue that the history is better thought out, but then you're running into the realm of opinion. If you want to defend the Realms as a setting, I'd base my arguments on the things that make it unique. That includes the high-magic theme; the unusually wide range of cultures and deities; the sheer amount of material describing the setting; and let people discover that there's more to it than the cliched high-fantasy world for themselves. I don't get your point, you don't want to use the word deep, but the arguments you want to use are the description of that word. "Unusually wide range of cultures and deities, ... sheer amoun of material ..." ???:confused:
Bluenose 01-12-07, 08:47 AM	I don't get your point, you don't want to use the word deep, but the arguments you want to use are the description of that word. "Unusually wide range of cultures and deities, ... sheer amoun of material ..." ???:confused: Well, partly because I felt from other parts of the post that it was mostly from a historical perspective, and I felt that I needed to point out other settings often had similar amounts of historical background. With regard to the wide range of cultures and deities, if they lacked detailed treatment (and I'm not claiming that they do) then that would be a straight definition of shallow in my book. Believe me, I'm old enough and have seen enough fantasy worlds to recognise when that is happening, which fortunately it doesn't in the Realms (or at least not too much). And if sheer volume of material mattered, the World of Darkness (insert vomiting smiley) would have more interest to me than it does.
GothicDan 01-12-07, 09:45 AM	FR has far, FAR more material than the WoD. As in, multiple times more.
Faraer 01-12-07, 01:17 PM	--
Bluenose 01-12-07, 02:21 PM	FR has far, FAR more material than the WoD. As in, multiple times more. On the White Wolf website it lists 123 products (not including novels) as existing for the WoD. There haven't been that many Realms products by comparison.
GothicDan 01-12-07, 03:49 PM	Printed? No. But you can bet for every bit of lore that's printed, there's ten times as much lore associated with it that hasn't been printed. And we DO get hints of this in every response we get from Ed Greenwood over at Candlekeep. That's one of the prime reasons I like the Realms. I know that Ed is a never-ending font of knowledge about absolutely any topic of it, and unless there's an NDA in the way, he'll give you a well thought-out, probably already-researched answer about anything you want to ask.
Stigger 01-12-07, 08:19 PM	A whole lot of that WoD material is retreaded over and over, phrased differently, but it's the same stuff ad nauseum for the most part. Think it died because they ran out of ways to say the same things... well, that and the whole darker than thou attitude that infected them the last few years.
Faraer 01-15-07, 09:48 AM	There are about 170 Realms game products, for what it's worth (excluding Oriental Adventures and Al-Qadim).
GothicDan 01-16-07, 04:03 PM	Faraer for the win. That's what I get for being too young.
Renvale999 01-17-07, 10:05 AM	I love the Realms and I love Eberron both equally, the only beef I have with the Realms is it's too small. You could fit Cormyr inside Texas, that's just too small for me, so I tell my players to X10 the miles on the maps...40 miles equals 400 miles. Then it's big enought for me, LOL.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-18-07, 09:41 AM	Anyone got ideas to defend against these statements? Also, cultures that existed hundreds of years apart seperated by vast geographical boundaries in the real world are somehow capable of rubbing shoulders without massive wars breaking out in FR. Ivory Tower Mary Sue NPCs
Faraer 01-18-07, 10:45 AM	I thought they were too wide of the mark to be worth answering. There are no such cultures: the Realms proper has its own cultures, not those of Earth. The Earth analogues are geographically isolated. And wars do break out. A definition of Mary Sue broad enough to encompass any of the well-known Realms characters would include most of the protagonists of heroic fiction. You know, if I wanted I could point out real flaws and shortcomings of the Realms. They would be far more major and serious than the usual ones, and they would be fair and accurate, and Ed Greenwood would largely agree with them.
MarkusTay63 01-18-07, 11:37 AM	I love the Realms and I love Eberron both equally, the only beef I have with the Realms is it's too small. You could fit Cormyr inside Texas, that's just too small for me, so I tell my players to X10 the miles on the maps...40 miles equals 400 miles. Then it's big enought for me, LOL.I believe England, which at one time controlled about a third of the planets surface (wild guess) is about 8 times the size of MY island (long Island, NY). You can't be serious about comparing the size of the United States to other real countries? :confused: France (Charlemagne and Napolean) controlled most of Europe Germany nearly conquered the world Macedonia (Not Greece!) is a tiny little speck of a country, but Alexander the Great had an empire the likes of which has never been seen since! If you think 'little' countries don't matter you need to crack open some history books. :rolleyes: I don't mean to offend, but on behalf of all our non-American members I was offended by your statement. :P And Cormyr is actually one of the smaller countries mind you; Mulhorand is bigger then 95% of modern nations. Most of the Shining South nations would be considered VERY large in the Real World. The Heartlands accurately reflects a Euro-centric fantasy world (size-wise) Just don't get me started on the Great Dale... :rolleyes: I mean, C'MON! What is it? INVISIBLE ?! :rofl:
Stigger 01-18-07, 03:58 PM	Well, with a common tongue and essentially standardized economic base (cp, sp, gp, pp) working throughout the realms, a lot of cultures that would otherwise be at each others throats has at least some basis of common ground with each other. Add into that the prevalence of overland and seaborne trade and it just makes it less likely that conflict will occur. You don't go to war with the guy who's coins pays your rent, and since he gets the same benefit from you, the same works for him. It comes down to incentive not to fight unless you have to, with certain obvious exceptions. Besides, and most importanly, it's a fantasy game, not a historical simulation. If they really want that, tell them to go order a copy of Europa Universalis III and be done with them. And who cares about the NPC thing? Everyone who works in the 'framework' of European based fantasy-fiction or RPG essentially uses the same archetypes as it is, and there's only so much 'originality' you can come up with there while keeping it recognizeable. Whether or not they're cookie-cuttered comes from just how much backstory it has, and the quality of that backstory. Adding to that is that if the characters are made so complex, no DM could portray them convincingly without a lot of acting training, so they have to be kept within a certain 'level' of complexity with the occassional exception. On the whole size thing... QFT what Markus said. Except for the Great Dale thing, be quiet about that, the mutant psionic carnivorous squirrels are almost ready for release and we want to make it a surprise when the sweep across eastern Faerun...
Dark Wizard 01-18-07, 09:58 PM	I love the Realms and I love Eberron both equally, the only beef I have with the Realms is it's too small. You could fit Cormyr inside Texas, that's just too small for me, so I tell my players to X10 the miles on the maps...40 miles equals 400 miles. Then it's big enought for me, LOL. There's nothing wrong with Cormyr, Texas just happens to be a big state. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 01-20-07, 11:33 PM	Germany nearly conquered the world That's so far from realistic it's giggly. Truely, ever heard of Russia? Ya know, that 1 country that whipped them flat out in a land war? No need for the brits, frogs, and yankees. Ok, maybe as a distraction.:) Macedonia (Not Greece!) is a tiny little speck of a country, but Alexander the Great had an empire the likes of which has never been seen since! Um, Mongolia? The Huns? Brits? USA? They didn't fall because of West Nile or Syphyllis either.:) I do agree with Markus, just not those 2 examples. I seem to have a case of giggly manicism this evening. Must be the watching Bubba-Ho-Tep on IFC.:rofl:
MarkusTay63 01-21-07, 01:09 AM	Given a few more months, German scientists would have completed THEIR nuclear bomb. They also had several prototype 'rocket planes' (jets) built that they were just about to start mass-producing, and at least another 1/2 dozen nasty surprises they were putting the finishing touches on. If we hadn't beaten them when we did, within a year they would have been unbeatable and we'd all be speaking German today. Yes.. it was THAT close. Russia didn't beat them, the weather did, same as Napolean :P Also, notice my wording when describing Alexander's empire. I never mention size. For its time it was an amazing piece of real estate, but it was the way he ruled and incorporated (absorbed) dozens of different cultures that made it incredible. Did George Washington or king george conquer and rename every city in his path with his own name? And his Empire spread over three continents, not something you see even today. I wouldn't call the Huns or the Mongolians true empires, at least not the same way I would most others. Their cultures were nomadic, so even their 'capital' moved around often. Also, they didn't really do much culturally, it was more like conquer and demand tribute with very little lasting socialogical impact. Alexander spread the Hellenistic culture halfway around the world. The only other Empire I would say equals that (and surpasses) is the British. Their culture and language is everywhere even today.
ZolDarklock 01-21-07, 02:19 AM	I found thru decades of DMing that the best way to handle any world is... Place all the npc's and monsters back to there original place before they got whacked off, then place your PC's in the game then and most importantly play all the monsters and npc's like they had more common sense than a rock as your players play, and make changes to that world, let them changes stand, dont follow some official timeline, let it create itself as you go and as far as world shaking events go, let your PC's from time to time play them out using the npc's/creatures that caused them events, and see what would really happen, I'm sure your PC's would enjoy such side adventures, mine loved it... In my world Shimmergloom ate drizzt's friends, and dared him to do something about it, Bane stomped the hell out of Torm, Cyric got ate alive by a random encounter owlbear "pathetic little weak thief" the ToT in my game didn't stand a chance with the PC's running the movers and shakers of the realms, poor midnight got disentegrated by a beholder named Maxam and so on...let the changes that happen stand, and ignore official timelines and world shaking events, let the players decide how such things turned out, it's a hell of a lot better way and more realistic of course the following actions as letting things happen like they actual might happen in a game where the npc's and creatures actual wont to win, will cause your world to look nothing like the official version, and it will look that way real quick
MerrikCale 01-21-07, 08:00 AM	Given a few more months, German scientists would have completed THEIR nuclear bomb. actually, the germans were far from making a nuclear bomb. The allies purposefully bugged the top German scientists while they were captured to see how close they were to creating the bomb and it was discovered they weren't close at all. However, Alexander the Great did have an amazing empire only because of what it took to create it so quickly and sustain it. Although the Romans did wind up wih more territory, Alexander's accomplishment may be more impressive.
Stigger 01-21-07, 08:12 AM	Think with Alexander is he did it within his own lifespan, not through successive generations of military and cultural conquest. Way more impressive in my mind. As to the German thing... technically you could consider them having an edge with their alliance with Hungary. Most of those scientists who developed it for us all went to the same University in... Budapest I think it was, since most were Hungarians. But, not sure what WW2 has to do with the Realms, unless we're talking about weird naturally occuring portals opening up between crystal spheres and dropping someone from one place to the other...
BrennonGoldeye 01-21-07, 02:54 PM	There's nothing wrong with Cormyr, Texas just happens to be a big state. ;) And dusty, dont forget dusty.:D However, Alexander the Great did have an amazing empire only because of what it took to create it so quickly and sustain it. Although the Romans did wind up wih more territory, Alexander's accomplishment may be more impressive. Very good point. It is quite amazing.:)
MarkusTay63 01-21-07, 09:26 PM	actually, the germans were far from making a nuclear bomb. The allies purposefully bugged the top German scientists while they were captured to see how close they were to creating the bomb and it was discovered they weren't close at all.Really? I thought it was French Intelligence (don't laugh) that reported to the British Intelligence that the Germans were collecting huge amount of Peat(?) from their bogs and shipping it back to germany on trains. When the Brits informed American Intelligence, American Scientists determined that the ONLY use he could possibly have for it was Heavy Water. Albert Einstein, recently come to the US, was brought in and he told them about the possibility of a Nuclear Bomb. With his help, we designed our own bomb and beat them to the punch. If Hitler hadn't been such a bigot he wouldn't have scared away the one man who could have won him the war. Amazing how one man can change the world. ;) However, Alexander the Great did have an amazing empire only because of what it took to create it so quickly and sustain it. Although the Romans did wind up wih more territory, Alexander's accomplishment may be more impressive.My point exactly. If you look at WHAT he did, and WHEN he did it, it truly boggles the mind. Unfortunately, after seeing that movie I now know he was only doing it to get at more little boys. :yuck: Now this all brings us full circle... How would I defend the Realms? By pointing to the fact that thousands of people visit this and other forums just to discuss non-existant people/places/events as if they were real. Most other settings would never stand up to that kind of intense scrutiny.
Dark Wizard 01-21-07, 10:16 PM	Really? I thought it was French Intelligence (don't laugh) that reported to the British Intelligence that the Germans were collecting huge amount of Peat(?) from their bogs and shipping it back to germany on trains. When the Brits informed American Intelligence, American Scientists determined that the ONLY use he could possibly have for it was Heavy Water. Albert Einstein, recently come to the US, was brought in and he told them about the possibility of a Nuclear Bomb. With his help, we designed our own bomb and beat them to the punch. If Hitler hadn't been such a bigot he wouldn't have scared away the one man who could have won him the war. Amazing how one man can change the world. ;) I'm not absolutely sure on this, but I recall reading that Einstein just wrote a letter to Roosevelt asking that he consider a nuclear bomb project because the Germans were thinking of the same thing. I don't think Einstein directly worked on the bomb, just weighed in on the issue with his academic fame to help get the ball rolling. I also thought Germany stopped research on the bomb after the war started coming to them, they wanted to work on more practical and immediate technologies like jet planes and better conventional bombs. I know that for a time Japan went off on a completely different tangent, super-radio transmitters that microwaved people instead of a nuclear bomb.
GothicDan 01-21-07, 11:19 PM	They tried to basically build (and some say succeeded in) a Tesla's death ray. As someone who's seen a bit of the high-tech science business? Never believe anything unless you see the articles, the evidence, and the data itself. Otherwise, take what quantum physicists like to call, " the agnostic stance": don't form an opinion.