Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yokinobu 01-16-06, 08:09 PM	And I don't mean a kingdom resting on clouds. I mean, actual landmasses that soar in the sky. Did FR start that or what? If there are any Crono Trigger fans out there(I be one!), or anyone that has played it to a certain point in the game, you may have come upon the Kingdom of Zeal, which is a floating continent, where magic and hubris are key aspects of daily life. Eventually, the continent comes crashing to the ground, and the Kingdom of Zeal is no more. I played Crono Trigger before I got into FR, but I know that Netheril was thought of long before the Crono Trigger project started. This is just one example but the only one I can think of. I know that there are other instances of floating landmasses on which people dwell in the fantasy/RPG genre. But the concept of Netheril goes back many years. Does anyone know if it was inspired by another place in another fantasy world, or is Netheril itself the inspiration?
Yanagita Kunio 01-17-06, 01:28 AM	CronoTrigger--such a great game. Frog ruled.... I can think of several disconnected references to flying cities. First, there's Laputa, the flying city of male scholars, in Gulliver's Travels...if I recall correctly, they were at war--sort of--with the females of the same society, who still lived on the surface. The satirical theme was something along the lines of the superciliousness of an excess of theory in the absence of a sense of practical necessity. One could say there's some parallels to Netheril in there. More obscurely, there's the myth of Tripura from the Shiva Purana [the Puranas being compiled stories and myths of gods (mostly) and heroes (sometimes)]. In it an asura (denizen of the lower world) gains a boon from Shiva and wishes for three cities that can fly and are indestructable...which the deity refuses to grant; after a bit of haggling, they arrive at a rather extended contigency that the three cities can only be destroyed (1) only when the three are in perfect vertical alignment, (2) at a certain astrological alignment that would only occur once in a very long time, and (3) when all three are pierced by a single arrow. The asura--OF COURSE--then uses these flying cities to dominate all three worlds, sending mortals and the lesser gods into a panic...resulting in all of the above clamoring to the more powerful gods that their collective hineys need saving. What's cool about this story...it's probably my favorite story from a Purana...is that while it's usually Vishnu (or one of his avatar forms) who saves the days, in this particularly tale it's Shiva who does the necessary deed. I'm sure there's others...but those are the two clearest cases I can think of "solid" masses of rock and construction, not just hovering, but moving around like dirigibles or some other massive aerial transport. It wouldn't surprise me to find tales of flying cities either in Hellenic myths, histories, or speculative pieces (like the Critias, for example). Also, I've got this tip-of-the-tongue sense that there was at least one flying city in the 1001 Nights or the larger body of Middle Eastern/Islamic folklore/mythology. I can also remember at least one Russian story of a dragon that controls a flying castle and abducts women...at least until a bogatyr with a very heavy iron club strikes his head off (the funny thing is that I can remember the drawing from the book I read as a kid, but the hero's name eludes me...it's wasn't Alyosha Popovich (who beheaded someone with a cudgel) or Dobyeron Nichyev (sp? a multiple dragon-slayer)...maybe Ilya Muromyets? PS. Back when WotC did Talislanta and TSR was still doing D&D the former also had a very interesting flying hunk of land named something like Altair. But that would be (I would think) considerably later than materials on Netheril, and thus not really an origin point.
Lord Karsus 01-17-06, 03:42 PM	-Pssht. Magus ruled... -Anyway, Floating Cities is nothing new. As Yanagita Kunio demonstrated, floating cities have appeared in myths all over the world. -But, you bring up an interesting point. Perhaps Queen Zeal was a Netherese Arcanist who escaped the Fall of Netheril, and was able to escape to the Chrono Trigger Realm.
Yanagita Kunio 01-17-06, 08:30 PM	Given the rampancy of portal and teleport magics in CT in general and Zeal in particular, I'd say it's like the nightmarish (yet cool) intersection of Imaskar and Netheril.
Yokinobu 01-17-06, 10:52 PM	CronoTrigger--such a great game. Frog ruled.... -Pssht. Magus ruled... You're both right! Though I must admit I'm a little more partial to Magus myself. Anyway, thanks alot for the reply Yanagita(care if I call you that?). I had never read Gulliver's Travels, and I have never really been interested in Hindu/Indian mythology and I really hadn't touched Middle Eastern/Islamic folklore. As far as I knew, the idea of flying landmasses on which people dwelt were a more recent idea. But ya gotta admit, they really ran with it when they thought up Netheril. I mean, the shearing off mountaintops thing just goes to show a more popular vision of flying landmasses that taper off to a point at the bottom, which the Kingdom of Zeal also did. I mean, they could reasonably have been isolated ideas, but when ya really think about it.... And knowing what I know now, I can't help but think that Netheril itself was inspired by old mythology or stories. By the way, I like that possibility you drew up Lord Karsus. Maybe I can come up with D20 stats for Queen Zeal, and find a way to use that... :plotting:
Gray Richardson 01-18-06, 12:44 AM	James Blish was doing flying cities in his Cities in Flight novels back in the 60's. Supergirl's domed hometown of Argo City was thrown clear of exploding Krypton and sent hurtling through space as far back as 1959. And of course Yanagita Kunio already mentioned Jonathan Swift's Laputa. As for within the historical framework of Faerūn, the Cloud Giants have been making flying fortresses and cities for some 30,000 years. And I would bet that the Aeearee, the avian creator race that reigned over the skies of Faerūn from approx. -31,000 DR to -30,000 DR, probably had some pretty nifty sky dwellings to rival some of the best stuff the Netherese pulled off.
Yanagita Kunio 01-18-06, 01:47 AM	I've imagined the Aeearee "flying" habitation to be something closer to an arcology crossed with a banyan tree...a dense three-dimensional living environment (oriented towards the natural XYZ travel available to a flying creature, rather than the "flat-surface architecture with a few options added to accomodate magical flight" you'd find in a terrestial-bound species that can cast Fly or create devices) with a semicoherent ecology unto itself. Sort of "if Paolo Soleri built a tree house in a zero-G environment."
dragonheart 01-21-06, 07:37 PM	As far as Faerun is concerned I would go wiht the Aeriee as the first creators of flying cities. back here on earth the idea has been around for long enough to make it into fables and stories so who knows.
Gray Richardson 01-22-06, 11:17 AM	I've imagined the Aeearee "flying" habitation to be something closer to an arcology crossed with a banyan tree...a dense three-dimensional living environment (oriented towards the natural XYZ travel available to a flying creature, rather than the "flat-surface architecture with a few options added to accomodate magical flight" you'd find in a terrestial-bound species that can cast Fly or create devices) with a semicoherent ecology unto itself. Sort of "if Paolo Soleri built a tree house in a zero-G environment."That is a really cool image! I was also thinking they might float something like an Arakhor (www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20010829h) a giant tree or elder treant like the Grandfather Tree in the High Forest. I wonder if they might not have built their cities within its branches. Whether or not you can fly an arakhor above a forest and still have it thrive is an open question. It may need to be rooted within a forest to really flourish. Maybe if it was flying over a forest or in close proximity to other flying trees it might suffice. But if perhaps it could be charged with the protection of the aeearee inhabitants and form a symbiotic relationship with them, drawing vigor and sustenance from their spirit and bonding with them instead of the trees of the forest, the flying arakhor could possibly work. Anyway, I think giant flying trees filled with cities floating in the skies would be truly a sight to behold. And if you had a lot of them, floating near each other--perhaps whole forests of flying tree dwellings! Now that would be a wonderous vista! One of those amazing legendary things you could only find in the ancient past of Faerūn.
Ioulaum 01-22-06, 12:24 PM	And I don't mean a kingdom resting on clouds. I mean, actual landmasses that soar in the sky. Did FR start that or what? If there are any Crono Trigger fans out there(I be one!), or anyone that has played it to a certain point in the game, you may have come upon the Kingdom of Zeal, which is a floating continent, where magic and hubris are key aspects of daily life. Eventually, the continent comes crashing to the ground, and the Kingdom of Zeal is no more. I played Crono Trigger before I got into FR, but I know that Netheril was thought of long before the Crono Trigger project started. This is just one example but the only one I can think of. I know that there are other instances of floating landmasses on which people dwell in the fantasy/RPG genre. But the concept of Netheril goes back many years. Does anyone know if it was inspired by another place in another fantasy world, or is Netheril itself the inspiration? Final Fantasy 1 (hardest of all FF games ever) came out in the early 80s and had the castle in the sky. Not sure if it beat Nethril to the punch through.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 01-27-06, 02:39 PM	jack & the Beanstalk... castle on a cloud D&D 1e.... cloud giants.... D&D 2e... netheril boxed set :)