Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Haole 11-25-05, 12:41 PM	I was wondering how difficult folks find it to run a Realms campaign with the players knowing all of the lore? I know that with so many of the products available it is intended to help DMs run a campaign but it also means that players know as much if not more about the setting. I guess I imagine two different things happening, either the players second guessing you for changing a plot line or there is no suspense. So how do people run a FR campaign? Thanks
Faraer 11-25-05, 12:55 PM	From the start, the Realms has been presented to us through unreliable narrators such as Elminster so that the source material itself justifies and almost requires deviation from it in individual campaigns. You must make sure the players understand that the published Realms and the Realms of your campaign are two different things (and Ed's Realms, the Realms proper, yet a third). They shouldn't expect everything to match the official timeline, in particular, which is determined by the commercial wants of the books department as much as by the needs of DMs; don't use those events unless you like them, and my advice would be to start the campaign in the 1350s rather than the WotC 'present'. Even if you do follow the official history, understand -- and try to make vivid in play -- that massively more stuff is going on in the Realms at any given time than the sources relay (there's some advice about this in Ed's candlekeep.com posts). You'll have no lack-of-suspense problems unless you try to play noninteractively through novel events. You also have to decide in advance how closely you want to emulate the dynamics of how the Realms works. If you have a player who understands the Realms better than you do (and someone who's read some Bob Salvatore novels and thinks they know the Realms from them will not), will you defer to them on particular points ('that's not what people from Calimshan are called') or just make the Realms the way you want them for simplicity's sake? There are of course major advantages to players knowing a lot about the setting, because it brings them closer to what their characters know -- but make it clear that stuff their characters wouldn't know is your domain as DM, not theirs.
BladeMage_1 11-25-05, 02:34 PM	Hmm, I recall a session i had awhile back... DM (me): You see a large symbol in the middle of this black marble floor. Rogue: What does it look like? Me: It appears to be a large black plated fist with green light emerging from inside, pouring out streams of through the fingers. Rogue: Bane symbol Me:........ see, I should have said it was a very unholy symbol. If the players wanted to know more I should have said "make a knowledge (religion)" check. Basically your players could know more about the seting than you, but their PCs dont. this is where knowledge checks come handy, just make sure you never pour out info that is directly related to somthing in the books (symbols, names, physical appearances, history, etc...) They cant recognize Elminster from an ordinary hobo unless they got some ranks in knowledge. Hope this helps
Halidan 11-25-05, 04:12 PM	I was wondering how difficult folks find it to run a Realms campaign with the players knowing all of the lore? I know that with so many of the products available it is intended to help DMs run a campaign but it also means that players know as much if not more about the setting. A lot of it depends on your players. I'm blessed with players that can seperate IC and OOC knowledge and have the role-playing skill not to let what they know about the setting personally effect how their players react to most situations. So, if I describe a symbol or scene to them and their characters have no idea what it means (like another posters example of the Bane symbol) then usually, they won't blurt it out. They may well ask for a knowledge check to identify the symbol, but they won't just declare it to be so. Sometimes they do slip (nobody's perfect after all), but if I notice it and ask "how does your character know that?" they will either admit the mistake or offer an IC explanation of why they would know it. Once I hear the explaination, I make my ruling - often, they are able to convice me that they'd recognize the matter. If they don't, the players are mature enough not to act upon the OOC knowledge. I guess I imagine two different things happening, either the players second guessing you for changing a plot line or there is no suspense. I can't answer for anyone else, but that's not the case in my game. If I have a plot that's a mystery or requires suspence, it's easy enough to manage. I recently ran my party through the events leading up to the liberation of Daggerdale from the Zhents (otherwise known as the Sword of the Dales modules). Since these events happen in 1368 DR (well behind the present timeline), most of my players know that Randal Morn did eventually kick the zhents out of the dale. Despite that fact, the campaign was full of suspence and surprizes. It was never a forgone conclusion. Likewise, during the campaign, several 'canon' NPC's died. It doesn't matter to me that a later sourcebook mentions these NPC's, in my campaign, they are dead. No one that I've ever met has run a "completely canon, never vary even one litte bit from the published Realms" campaign. It would be a near impossible task and one that would be heavily loadwd with unnessary burdens. Use the rules books as a guide and a suggestion - not as a "carved-in-stone" text that you can never vary from. It works much betteer that way.
Haole 11-25-05, 04:18 PM	I believe that it would be important to either say "MY realms" versus the realms of novel/source/etc. But in doing that I can imagine that I will still be pulling info from source books, I mean thats the point of them. I was more worried about the Players making a fatal mistake because they assumed something I was doing was following a story instead of my own thing. So I was wondering how people dealt with whats from a book and whats from the DM's head, But I hadn't even thought about the knowledge checks. doah!! :D Because of all of the novels I am a big fan of the Realms. Because of two kids under 16 months of age and all the RL stuff that entails the idea of using a premade setting and one I am familiar with and like makes it a good idea. Thanks again.
Ltlconf 11-26-05, 04:16 AM	Hello Folks, "My Realms" exactly. You'll have problems to be sure. I've got a few ideas to add to the excellent points already made. First. You might want to sit down with your players the weekend before game, roll up your characters, and discuss how you are going to run things. This allows for the players and you to know the characters, get a balanced group and saves game time in a big way. Explaining the setting as you see it saves in game arguing. Make it clear you will listen to suggestions before and after game, but in game your word is final. Explain any changes you will make (if any) and that canon will be out the window from that point on due to character action when need be. Also explain any changes you will be making if so. Second. Talk with the players as to what extent character knowledge exists. Example: Characters of some sorts and backgrounds will know a Bane's arms as easily as someone of my background knows local cattle brands from childhood on. On the other hand, city-folk wouldn't know them from Adam, and so with some religious symbols. This example given is a good one. Bane's a well known god (well, the pantheon is well known in general really, just as a ancient Greek knew his) and thus most (but not all) would have working knowledge of the pantheon's different gods, their portfolios, and many (but not all) of their common symbols. In such a world, it's a survival trait (Folks from the Moonsea would likely know Bane's symbol from childhood on)! These things need to be worked out before game. Third. Be firm! If you decide that if it's not in the FRCB, then it doesn't exist canon-wise, stick to it. Wavering often leads to the players pushing further. If you decide something is player knowledge, stick to it (you can always say he's learned better next game). Last. Treat the canon as a guide not a set of laws. Heck, do the same with the rules! Never be afraid to experiment (or surprise your players with them). The above knowledge example is a good start: You might want to hand out extra skill points, but you choose what skills recieve how much based on your judgement as to what the character would know or could do.
Seraphim of Night 11-27-05, 12:45 AM	All of my players are ignorant of anything and everything save what directly concerns them. I would give bonus xp if any of them ever did happen to know anything, I would be so happy. :cheer: Brings a tear to my eye.
Muddman 11-27-05, 02:13 AM	First off, let me say that some preconceived notions are well known. Drow are feared by everyone, Red wizards are evil and if they've EVER seen Shar's holy symbol or did any kind of research, they can identify it later since they know what it looks like. That being said, I like when the PCs have preconceived notions, makes it all the better when I turn their world upside down. Like when the PCs skipped a possible adventure hook, ignoring total danger to Waterdeep with the idea of "someone else will take care of it". So I blew up North ward in a blossom of Shadow Weave fire that killed over 20,000 people, mostly noble families. Then I made an adventure where they used their preconceived notion of "shades are evil" to thwart them. Unfortunatly the Shades were trying to twart the Pharimm from assaulting Silverymoon, so they had to help the Shades kill the leader and his minions that took over Thunderspell's castle. Then I used their old "Thayans are evil" against them in a similar adventure where the red wizards were trying to help, and their predjudices pushed away a valuable ally in the war against the Phaerimm. Do this enough times and they will stop having preconceived notions. Start making up demon worshipping cults with different holy symbols and stop using the old Shar/Bane/Cyric. Heck, you've run into one mad follower of Cyric, you've seen them all. Kill Elminster, I did. He died heroically and all saving the PCs when he was banished to hell. In my campaign world he sacrificed himself to save the PCs who were sent to save him. Destroy monarchies. In my game world, Cormyr's Iron Regent has become a ruthless dictator in an attempt to "stabilize" her government from Symbian spies. Now, soldiers walk the streets, any accusation is equivelant to "prove your not a spy" and her title has changed to the Ruler of the Iron Throne. Her brother has been sent to grow up in a monestary "for his own safty", safly away from her and her rule. Just a few ideas. Some people get mad, but thats their problem. When they run, they can do what hey want and completly ignore what you did. Till then, its this way or you don't have to play. Thats never actually happened to me, but there might be a first time for everything.
warlockco 11-27-05, 05:49 AM	Destroy monarchies. In my game world, Cormyr's Iron Regent has become a ruthless dictator in an attempt to "stabilize" her government from Symbian spies. Now, soldiers walk the streets, any accusation is equivelant to "prove your not a spy" and her title has changed to the Ruler of the Iron Throne. Her brother has been sent to grow up in a monestary "for his own safty", safly away from her and her rule. Don't you mean Nephew?
Seraphim of Night 11-27-05, 05:58 AM	In a section of our campaign (long story short), a polymorphed PC in the form of a naga was sent as a gift (supposedly from Horustep III...) into Corymr in order to slay the infant king by a High Priest of Set in the Desert near Mulhorand. He was a fool, and got his head lopped off by the regeants vorpal sword... :raincloud :ghosted:
Muddman 11-29-05, 09:19 PM	Don't you mean Nephew? Ya, sorry, it was late, nephew.
Ltlconf 12-01-05, 02:27 AM	Hello folks, Excellent Muddman! Though I think Vangy's Boys would have a LITTLE problem with the Regent getting that out of hand. But thats just me though. I like Cormyr being one of the few monarchies around, gives the world a good traditional fantasy that lets new players sink on in easy. Absolutely cool ideas and definitely how I've been doing it as well: canon as guide only, and loose at that, and changing things as I see fit and the story goes. It's your world, make it what you will! Gotta to create my own little war this coming year, so I'm going lift the whole phaerimm thing from you with the Thayans being allies (love them near god-like windsocks)! That'll smoke their little minds :evillaugh ! Thanks! :rofl:
Halidan 12-01-05, 09:43 AM	I was more worried about the Players making a fatal mistake because they assumed something I was doing was following a story instead of my own thing. So I was wondering how people dealt with whats from a book and whats from the DM's head, But I hadn't even thought about the knowledge checks. doah!! :D All of my current players know this one already, but I always warn new players that my games are set in my version of the Forgotten Realms - it may vary a bit here and there from the "official" Relams. On the subject of novels, I'm even more clear to my players. The information contained in the published Forgotten Realms fiction (everything including comics, stories in DRagon magazine and the whole novels line) are simply stories and tales about the Realms- nothing more. Sure, everyone knows that King Azoun went west to fight the Tugien Hoard and was victorious. Many of the soldiers who fought with him brought back tales of the war - some of them have even been collected into the form of books and scrolls. One of the more popular books of these tales is called "Crusade." Not all of the stories in this book are true, but they've been written down and are now being told that way by many bards and storytellers. I make it very clear to my players that the fiction written about the Realms is just that - fiction. The stories are not news accounts. They may or may not be true and even if they're true, the novels probably aren't accurate. That way - my players can make as much or as little use of the books as they feel necessary.