Diseases/Bathing (For the Poster named Monsoon :)) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Diseases/Bathing (For the Poster named Monsoon :)) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kuje31
04-28-04, 02:00 PM Hello, everyone. This is by way of being Ed's reply to kuje31 re. germs, diseases, and hygiene:

Most civilized people in the Realms know that disease transferral works "sorta like this for shaking fever, like that for blacktongue," and so on. They disagree on treatments (aside from rest, care, bathing and purgatives, careful feeding of observed specifics), except for remembering what worked for them and their friends. The reasons for these diagreements are the various churches, most of whom are doing their level best to keep influence and control (and a continuing flow of coins for healings) by spreading misinformation (at the lower ranks, usually unwittingly) as to exactly how this or that disease is best treated--and these (as with real-world doctors) turn into heated professional disagreements. "Bad hygiene" for the Realms means wash hair every four days or so and before special occasions, bathe "smelly areas" every night if possible, scented oil plus sand-scrub when bathing impossible...not reeking, filthy bodies, okay?
Kuje31
05-15-04, 04:35 PM Since you missed this earlier Monsoon28, I'm bumping it. :)
Mr. Wilson
05-15-04, 07:28 PM I actually downloaded that whole link you had posted Kuje, where Ed answered questions, and I have to say, some of the answers he gave were very interesting.

Thanks for the link.
Kuje31
05-15-04, 07:43 PM Originally posted by Mr. Wilson
I actually downloaded that whole link you had posted Kuje, where Ed answered questions, and I have to say, some of the answers he gave were very interesting.

Thanks for the link.

I update it usually daily actually. :) Since we are bombarding Ed with questions over there and he's busy, busy, busy.
Mr. Wilson
05-16-04, 02:46 AM it took me a good four hours to plow through it. I'll have to bookmark that page then.
Kuje31
05-16-04, 03:08 AM Originally posted by Mr. Wilson
it took me a good four hours to plow through it. I'll have to bookmark that page then.

Or you could just keep an eye out on my thread here on the main page that's titled Ed's Candlekeep Answers. I update it at the same time I update the file. :)
Monsoon28
05-16-04, 10:18 AM Heya Kuje,

Downloaded the link from your other thread, and saw Ed's sorta answer. Now could we get good old Ed to give an answer on Germs specifically?

I don't think we disagreed so much on disease as we did on the knowledge of micro-organisms.

As we see from Ed's statement, folk in the realms are in disagreement about how to cure diseases and about hygiene.
Also he says they sorta know how transferral works, which sounds like they are learning from experience, not from any knowledge of germs (sort of like discovering that rats were the carriers of plague and killing cats had been making things worse).

Do doctors know to wash thier hands with hot water and soap after every patient? Do they disinfect instruments after every use? These are the vital questions, otherwise, it still sounds like 14th century earth knowledge, at least to me.

At least good ole Ed has been answering your questions! :)
Now if we can get him to help settle these question,
That would be greeeaaat! (Office Space). :D

Cheers!
Faraer
05-16-04, 10:42 AM I infer pretty clearly that germs aren't known (they don't necessarily exist).
Kuje31
05-16-04, 12:43 PM Hmmm even rereadin most of the modules that Ed wrote up as mini dungeons he even puts in toilets or a place where people or monsters can expel thier waste. His two mini modules in the 1e campaign box set have places to do so and many of his other modules through they years have as well.

However I think I agree with Fafaer now, germs might not exist since I said it before. Faerun is not Earth.

Do doctors need to wash thier hands or thier instruments, when a simple cantrip can do the same. Or when a simple cantrip can be enchanted into said items in the case of instruments. I still don't agree because again most (like the elves) races know how the body works, what each organ does, how monstrous humanoids are put together, how normal humanoids are put together, etc.

Also I'm not going to ask Ed right now since he's backed up (pun!) with replies as it is and one of them is mine. And since he's really busy trying to catch up, I don't want to bombard him with any more questions right now.
Monsoon28
05-16-04, 04:32 PM Originally posted by Kuje31
Do doctors need to wash thier hands or thier instruments, when a simple cantrip can do the same. Or when a simple cantrip can be enchanted into said items in the case of instruments. I still don't agree because again most (like the elves) races know how the body works, what each organ does, how monstrous humanoids are put together, how normal humanoids are put together, etc.

Also I'm not going to ask Ed right now since he's backed up (pun!) with replies as it is and one of them is mine. And since he's really busy trying to catch up, I don't want to bombard him with any more questions right now.

We first need to know that doctors in Faerun even bother with such techniques, they aren't even going to waste a cantrip if they don't feel the need to. Having a understanding of how the body and its parts work doen't equate to exact knowledge on every part, i'm sure the brain is still as much of a mystery as it is to RL scientists. A elven doctor can't re-attach a limb; little alone repair the spinal cord without the assisstance of magic.

The understanding of the body still does not include knowledge of micro-organisms/germs.
Look at it this way, many cities in faerun have public bath houses, these are huge pools that have the same water throughout the day and are emptied at night. Bath houses are stagnant pools of water filled with germs, in fact they are ideal places for germ activity, people go to them because they don't know that they are filthy places, they simply think they are cleaning themselves of dirt and grim. And to say germs don't exsist is just silly, or if they don't then contact with earth would almost certainly be deadly to any faerunian, since their bodies have never been exposed to any previously.

Anyway no rush, when Eddie boy gets around to answering this question i'll be glad to see his decision. But he does have his own life to lead. ;) And if he's backed up, suggest pepto! lol
Kuje31
05-17-04, 12:58 AM Originally posted by Monsoon28
We first need to know that doctors in Faerun even bother with such techniques, they aren't even going to waste a cantrip if they don't feel the need to. Having a understanding of how the body and its parts work doen't equate to exact knowledge on every part, i'm sure the brain is still as much of a mystery as it is to RL scientists. A elven doctor can't re-attach a limb; little alone repair the spinal cord without the assisstance of magic.

The understanding of the body still does not include knowledge of micro-organisms/germs.
Look at it this way, many cities in faerun have public bath houses, these are huge pools that have the same water throughout the day and are emptied at night. Bath houses are stagnant pools of water filled with germs, in fact they are ideal places for germ activity, people go to them because they don't know that they are filthy places, they simply think they are cleaning themselves of dirt and grim. And to say germs don't exsist is just silly, or if they don't then contact with earth would almost certainly be deadly to any faerunian, since their bodies have never been exposed to any previously.

Anyway no rush, when Eddie boy gets around to answering this question i'll be glad to see his decision. But he does have his own life to lead. ;) And if he's backed up, suggest pepto! lol

See I disagree. You have germs in your body as it is and saying the races know how the organs work leads me to believe also that they know of the germs within said organs.

Furthermore, it seems a little odd to believe that the races do not know about germs when some of them (like the elves) have existed for over 20,000 years.....

But I put in another reply to Ed and hopefully he'll give us a better answer, or at least one that might satisfy you. :)
Monsoon28
05-17-04, 03:38 AM It's cool Jefe... :D

Though I guess this would come down to just how well they know how the different organs, cells, etc, function.
I just don't see them having as deep and thorough a understanding as you do. Otherwise, I believe their level of medical procedures would be more advanced. People in the realms can't and don't rely on magic for everything, but they do so for healing, and I believe this is because surgical science is still pretty barbaric in contract to their understanding of the body.

Cheers,
Nightchill
05-17-04, 06:52 AM But... every four days is about what I wash my hair :p
Kuje31
05-17-04, 11:53 PM Well I can admit when I'm mistaken. :)

"In similar vein, kuje31 and Bookwyrm: yes, germs exist in the Realms just as in our real world, though knowledge of them is rare and confused. As far as is known, there are no magic-resistant germs (beyond the fell experiment mentioned in CORMYR: A NOVEL)."
Monsoon28
05-18-04, 05:31 AM But knowledge is rare, So I guess i'm wrong as well! ;)

Rare and confused, hmmmm wonder who would be on this list?
Eliminster..(since he's been to earth)...hmmmm?

Cormyr: A Novel, really?? I alway thought it had been magic resistance disease, learn something new everyday. :D
WizO_BigSister
05-18-04, 08:19 AM Actually you don't need to understand about bacteria and viruses to know the benifits of hygiene, and to use antiseptics. Many cultures here on Earth use herbs and other natural materials which have proven antiseptic properties to clean wounds, in childbirth etc. They know it works, even if they don't why it works.

The same applies to principles of hygiene and even sterilisation. For example many cultures have recognised keeping sewage separate from your drinking water stops disease. Another example ... lots of people know to pass a knife through a very hot flame before using it for surgery.

Modern medicine still does this a lot. If us medics see something works, and see it doesn't harm the patients we go ahead and use it (while furiously trying to figure out why it works). We give this a posh name "emperical knowledge" ... but all that means is that we have seen it working!
Kuje31
05-18-04, 12:36 PM Originally posted by Monsoon28
But knowledge is rare, So I guess i'm wrong as well! ;)

Rare and confused, hmmmm wonder who would be on this list?
Eliminster..(since he's been to earth)...hmmmm?

Cormyr: A Novel, really?? I alway thought it had been magic resistance disease, learn something new everyday. :D

Well many of the Seven have also been to earth. I'd still say that many of the long lived demihumans would know..... As would Talona's clergy since again disease and germs some time go hand in hand. Um nature priests/druids/rangers as well because there are a lot of germs in nature.
Monsoon28
05-18-04, 05:28 PM @ BigSis: Actually you don't need to understand about bacteria and viruses to know the benifits of hygiene, and to use antiseptics.
But that's not entirely true going back to an older arguement from the 'other' thread, until Pasteur came up with his 'germ theory' doctors were still not washing their hands nor serilizing their equipment (at least in europe/N.A.). While Fearun may be different, I think the differences stem from race and culture. Elves are likely to treat in a manner completely unlike humans and Calishites are likely to treat patients differently than Sembians. But with hard medical science there should be no difference as least in regards to the same race.
Otherwise I agree with what your saying.

@Kuje: Please! oh Please! Don't bring up Talona again! ;)
Since we're speculating I'll add Khelban, Agreed 'some' of the Seven Sisters, Druids i'm not to sure on, they tend to rely on herbal remedies (not the kind P&T talk about on their BS show), more so then any science. How about some Epic level Lore Masters (both arcane and divine), or better yet the Harpell's?

But even then, if their knowledge is confused, does that mean they haven't done any hard science on them? Does this come down to second hand knowledge (earth), or through divinations?
Sarta
05-19-04, 03:25 AM While it is true that it wasn't until Pasteur that the germ theory arose and doctors saw a need for cleanliness, it is also true that Hipocrates back around 400 BCE determined that diseases must be of natural causes and Claudius Galen around 170 CE attempted to identify the "seeds of disease". During the black plague of the 1300's it was thought that the disease was carried by a miasma of disease and it was known that victims should be isolated and all items that had come into contact with the victim should be burned.

Also, germ warfare was well known far before Pasteur. In 1346 the Crimean Tartars catapaulted plague infected corpses at an Italian settlement. The British also used smallpox infected blankets against the native Americans during Pontiac's Rebellion in 1763.

So clearly even though germs themselves were not known about, it was commonly thought that disease could be spread from things that had come into contact with disease. In hindsight it seems rather sad that it took so long to determine that cleanliness aids in reducing the spread of disease. Perhaps in the Realms people have made this leap of logic without the discovery of germs themself.

Sarta
Monsoon28
05-19-04, 04:14 AM The British also used smallpox infected blankets against the native Americans during Pontiac's Rebellion in 1763.
Yes, this was parodied in 'Red Man's Greed' in the 7th season of South Park.

Good points on the use of germ warfare, just goes to show humanity has always been willing to use anything (even if they didn't understand it) to their advantage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuje31 04-28-04, 02:00 PM	Hello, everyone. This is by way of being Ed's reply to kuje31 re. germs, diseases, and hygiene: Most civilized people in the Realms know that disease transferral works "sorta like this for shaking fever, like that for blacktongue," and so on. They disagree on treatments (aside from rest, care, bathing and purgatives, careful feeding of observed specifics), except for remembering what worked for them and their friends. The reasons for these diagreements are the various churches, most of whom are doing their level best to keep influence and control (and a continuing flow of coins for healings) by spreading misinformation (at the lower ranks, usually unwittingly) as to exactly how this or that disease is best treated--and these (as with real-world doctors) turn into heated professional disagreements. "Bad hygiene" for the Realms means wash hair every four days or so and before special occasions, bathe "smelly areas" every night if possible, scented oil plus sand-scrub when bathing impossible...not reeking, filthy bodies, okay?
Kuje31 05-15-04, 04:35 PM	Since you missed this earlier Monsoon28, I'm bumping it. :)
Mr. Wilson 05-15-04, 07:28 PM	I actually downloaded that whole link you had posted Kuje, where Ed answered questions, and I have to say, some of the answers he gave were very interesting. Thanks for the link.
Kuje31 05-15-04, 07:43 PM	Originally posted by Mr. Wilson I actually downloaded that whole link you had posted Kuje, where Ed answered questions, and I have to say, some of the answers he gave were very interesting. Thanks for the link. I update it usually daily actually. :) Since we are bombarding Ed with questions over there and he's busy, busy, busy.
Mr. Wilson 05-16-04, 02:46 AM	it took me a good four hours to plow through it. I'll have to bookmark that page then.
Kuje31 05-16-04, 03:08 AM	Originally posted by Mr. Wilson it took me a good four hours to plow through it. I'll have to bookmark that page then. Or you could just keep an eye out on my thread here on the main page that's titled Ed's Candlekeep Answers. I update it at the same time I update the file. :)
Monsoon28 05-16-04, 10:18 AM	Heya Kuje, Downloaded the link from your other thread, and saw Ed's sorta answer. Now could we get good old Ed to give an answer on Germs specifically? I don't think we disagreed so much on disease as we did on the knowledge of micro-organisms. As we see from Ed's statement, folk in the realms are in disagreement about how to cure diseases and about hygiene. Also he says they sorta know how transferral works, which sounds like they are learning from experience, not from any knowledge of germs (sort of like discovering that rats were the carriers of plague and killing cats had been making things worse). Do doctors know to wash thier hands with hot water and soap after every patient? Do they disinfect instruments after every use? These are the vital questions, otherwise, it still sounds like 14th century earth knowledge, at least to me. At least good ole Ed has been answering your questions! :) Now if we can get him to help settle these question, That would be greeeaaat! (Office Space). :D Cheers!
Faraer 05-16-04, 10:42 AM	I infer pretty clearly that germs aren't known (they don't necessarily exist).
Kuje31 05-16-04, 12:43 PM	Hmmm even rereadin most of the modules that Ed wrote up as mini dungeons he even puts in toilets or a place where people or monsters can expel thier waste. His two mini modules in the 1e campaign box set have places to do so and many of his other modules through they years have as well. However I think I agree with Fafaer now, germs might not exist since I said it before. Faerun is not Earth. Do doctors need to wash thier hands or thier instruments, when a simple cantrip can do the same. Or when a simple cantrip can be enchanted into said items in the case of instruments. I still don't agree because again most (like the elves) races know how the body works, what each organ does, how monstrous humanoids are put together, how normal humanoids are put together, etc. Also I'm not going to ask Ed right now since he's backed up (pun!) with replies as it is and one of them is mine. And since he's really busy trying to catch up, I don't want to bombard him with any more questions right now.
Monsoon28 05-16-04, 04:32 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Do doctors need to wash thier hands or thier instruments, when a simple cantrip can do the same. Or when a simple cantrip can be enchanted into said items in the case of instruments. I still don't agree because again most (like the elves) races know how the body works, what each organ does, how monstrous humanoids are put together, how normal humanoids are put together, etc. Also I'm not going to ask Ed right now since he's backed up (pun!) with replies as it is and one of them is mine. And since he's really busy trying to catch up, I don't want to bombard him with any more questions right now. We first need to know that doctors in Faerun even bother with such techniques, they aren't even going to waste a cantrip if they don't feel the need to. Having a understanding of how the body and its parts work doen't equate to exact knowledge on every part, i'm sure the brain is still as much of a mystery as it is to RL scientists. A elven doctor can't re-attach a limb; little alone repair the spinal cord without the assisstance of magic. The understanding of the body still does not include knowledge of micro-organisms/germs. Look at it this way, many cities in faerun have public bath houses, these are huge pools that have the same water throughout the day and are emptied at night. Bath houses are stagnant pools of water filled with germs, in fact they are ideal places for germ activity, people go to them because they don't know that they are filthy places, they simply think they are cleaning themselves of dirt and grim. And to say germs don't exsist is just silly, or if they don't then contact with earth would almost certainly be deadly to any faerunian, since their bodies have never been exposed to any previously. Anyway no rush, when Eddie boy gets around to answering this question i'll be glad to see his decision. But he does have his own life to lead. ;) And if he's backed up, suggest pepto! lol
Kuje31 05-17-04, 12:58 AM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 We first need to know that doctors in Faerun even bother with such techniques, they aren't even going to waste a cantrip if they don't feel the need to. Having a understanding of how the body and its parts work doen't equate to exact knowledge on every part, i'm sure the brain is still as much of a mystery as it is to RL scientists. A elven doctor can't re-attach a limb; little alone repair the spinal cord without the assisstance of magic. The understanding of the body still does not include knowledge of micro-organisms/germs. Look at it this way, many cities in faerun have public bath houses, these are huge pools that have the same water throughout the day and are emptied at night. Bath houses are stagnant pools of water filled with germs, in fact they are ideal places for germ activity, people go to them because they don't know that they are filthy places, they simply think they are cleaning themselves of dirt and grim. And to say germs don't exsist is just silly, or if they don't then contact with earth would almost certainly be deadly to any faerunian, since their bodies have never been exposed to any previously. Anyway no rush, when Eddie boy gets around to answering this question i'll be glad to see his decision. But he does have his own life to lead. ;) And if he's backed up, suggest pepto! lol See I disagree. You have germs in your body as it is and saying the races know how the organs work leads me to believe also that they know of the germs within said organs. Furthermore, it seems a little odd to believe that the races do not know about germs when some of them (like the elves) have existed for over 20,000 years..... But I put in another reply to Ed and hopefully he'll give us a better answer, or at least one that might satisfy you. :)
Monsoon28 05-17-04, 03:38 AM	It's cool Jefe... :D Though I guess this would come down to just how well they know how the different organs, cells, etc, function. I just don't see them having as deep and thorough a understanding as you do. Otherwise, I believe their level of medical procedures would be more advanced. People in the realms can't and don't rely on magic for everything, but they do so for healing, and I believe this is because surgical science is still pretty barbaric in contract to their understanding of the body. Cheers,
Nightchill 05-17-04, 06:52 AM	But... every four days is about what I wash my hair :p
Kuje31 05-17-04, 11:53 PM	Well I can admit when I'm mistaken. :) "In similar vein, kuje31 and Bookwyrm: yes, germs exist in the Realms just as in our real world, though knowledge of them is rare and confused. As far as is known, there are no magic-resistant germs (beyond the fell experiment mentioned in CORMYR: A NOVEL)."
Monsoon28 05-18-04, 05:31 AM	But knowledge is rare, So I guess i'm wrong as well! ;) Rare and confused, hmmmm wonder who would be on this list? Eliminster..(since he's been to earth)...hmmmm? Cormyr: A Novel, really?? I alway thought it had been magic resistance disease, learn something new everyday. :D
WizO_BigSister 05-18-04, 08:19 AM	Actually you don't need to understand about bacteria and viruses to know the benifits of hygiene, and to use antiseptics. Many cultures here on Earth use herbs and other natural materials which have proven antiseptic properties to clean wounds, in childbirth etc. They know it works, even if they don't why it works. The same applies to principles of hygiene and even sterilisation. For example many cultures have recognised keeping sewage separate from your drinking water stops disease. Another example ... lots of people know to pass a knife through a very hot flame before using it for surgery. Modern medicine still does this a lot. If us medics see something works, and see it doesn't harm the patients we go ahead and use it (while furiously trying to figure out why it works). We give this a posh name "emperical knowledge" ... but all that means is that we have seen it working!
Kuje31 05-18-04, 12:36 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 But knowledge is rare, So I guess i'm wrong as well! ;) Rare and confused, hmmmm wonder who would be on this list? Eliminster..(since he's been to earth)...hmmmm? Cormyr: A Novel, really?? I alway thought it had been magic resistance disease, learn something new everyday. :D Well many of the Seven have also been to earth. I'd still say that many of the long lived demihumans would know..... As would Talona's clergy since again disease and germs some time go hand in hand. Um nature priests/druids/rangers as well because there are a lot of germs in nature.
Monsoon28 05-18-04, 05:28 PM	@ BigSis: Actually you don't need to understand about bacteria and viruses to know the benifits of hygiene, and to use antiseptics. But that's not entirely true going back to an older arguement from the 'other' thread, until Pasteur came up with his 'germ theory' doctors were still not washing their hands nor serilizing their equipment (at least in europe/N.A.). While Fearun may be different, I think the differences stem from race and culture. Elves are likely to treat in a manner completely unlike humans and Calishites are likely to treat patients differently than Sembians. But with hard medical science there should be no difference as least in regards to the same race. Otherwise I agree with what your saying. @Kuje: Please! oh Please! Don't bring up Talona again! ;) Since we're speculating I'll add Khelban, Agreed 'some' of the Seven Sisters, Druids i'm not to sure on, they tend to rely on herbal remedies (not the kind P&T talk about on their BS show), more so then any science. How about some Epic level Lore Masters (both arcane and divine), or better yet the Harpell's? But even then, if their knowledge is confused, does that mean they haven't done any hard science on them? Does this come down to second hand knowledge (earth), or through divinations?
Sarta 05-19-04, 03:25 AM	While it is true that it wasn't until Pasteur that the germ theory arose and doctors saw a need for cleanliness, it is also true that Hipocrates back around 400 BCE determined that diseases must be of natural causes and Claudius Galen around 170 CE attempted to identify the "seeds of disease". During the black plague of the 1300's it was thought that the disease was carried by a miasma of disease and it was known that victims should be isolated and all items that had come into contact with the victim should be burned. Also, germ warfare was well known far before Pasteur. In 1346 the Crimean Tartars catapaulted plague infected corpses at an Italian settlement. The British also used smallpox infected blankets against the native Americans during Pontiac's Rebellion in 1763. So clearly even though germs themselves were not known about, it was commonly thought that disease could be spread from things that had come into contact with disease. In hindsight it seems rather sad that it took so long to determine that cleanliness aids in reducing the spread of disease. Perhaps in the Realms people have made this leap of logic without the discovery of germs themself. Sarta
Monsoon28 05-19-04, 04:14 AM	The British also used smallpox infected blankets against the native Americans during Pontiac's Rebellion in 1763. Yes, this was parodied in 'Red Man's Greed' in the 7th season of South Park. Good points on the use of germ warfare, just goes to show humanity has always been willing to use anything (even if they didn't understand it) to their advantage.