Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grishnor 02-11-05, 04:13 PM	I just found this forum so first off hello everyone :) I've been running FR for about 5 years, the same campaign with the same core players. My game has gone from 5 players at my house to 25 at a hobby store over the years. My lowest level player is 26 and highest at 37. Toril seems is just to small for them so I've moved them into Sigil and started getting them involved in the Blood War. But they still have ALOT of history and love for toril. Lately though if they travel in a pack they are unruley and unstopable unless I throw the smackdown of the gods at them. But I can't do that everytime they don't pay for simple meals or other silly stuff. So I'm looking for some advice of other DM's that have experienced this level of play in their games.
Ramar Aulinvox 02-11-05, 04:39 PM	Well, no one should be able to tell them to pay for their meals and such. the basic police forces shouldn't be able to deal with people like that. think of how people respond to elminister and other epic charecters. it sounds like the people are evil or at least, not good. to counter balance the returns to toril, you could have a bloodwar enemy plan a trap or have a group high mages do a binding to imprison them if they get too roudy or something like that.
Grishnor 02-11-05, 05:13 PM	They aren't good, but they aren't that evil either. DM"s use NPC's and scenery to keep players in check, but there just aren't very powerful NPC's that are around everytime the players are. They don't mess around to much in Waterdeep cause of the powers there, but if they really wanted to they could kill every living and unliving thing in the entire sword coast in prolly a few hours. Symbul, Elminster, Khleban, the other chosen and sisters would show up to stop but... I still don't think they would have the power to stop the group. I really think its just time for them to leave Toril behind for good before things get out of hand. They already have done some epic things that changed the face of Toril. (i.e. they killed Telemont Tanthul, lord shadow of the Netherese Empire, they destroyed Zentil Keep, they killed Klauth, great wyrm red dragon in his own layer with a visiting convoy of cult of the dragon to help him, and other equally epic things that i made up.) The players just have that feel that they are unstoppable while on toril. And in most cases its true. I hate to leave the FR fully behind for them but unless i can get some input on how to deal with them.
Imruphel 02-14-05, 09:41 PM	You have 25 players running characters ranging in level from 26th to 37th? You're joking, of course? I mean, I can accept that there are high-level PCs but not 25 separate players sitting around a table managed by but a single DM.
ClobberinTime 02-15-05, 11:13 AM	I think you need to involve them in some kind of Ragornak like war of the Gods where everyone they meet is epic level. or Have Ao summon them and tell them that there are some rogue FR gods who have left the planes associated with the FR i.e. new cosmology who are plotting his downfall. If this happens one of them will take Ao's place and replace all of the FR gods with his minions, thus evilly enslaving all of Faerun. The Chosen are no good for this mission because their chosen powers only work within the now limited FR cosmology. So now the PCs need to hunt down an unknown number of Demi-gods on a variety of planes some of which they nor anyone has ever heard of- So many of these are Demi-planes that respond to their owners whim, this should reall scare them, when the air around them becomes toxic, the grass starts burning and the sky falls on their heads... etc.... Some of these Demi-deitys are hiding on material planes where- 1, There are mages of the power of ancient Netheril, i.e. level 50+ 2, The entire population is god-kissed, i.e. mercilessly high level and partially divine, Maybe this is a place where all of the offspring of the deity's who don't make it as higher divine ranks go to live, or maybe its a world with two greater deitys one good and one evil whose offspring fight an eternal war for control of that prime. 3, Send them to our current earth and make their magic disappear and them lose levels as time goes on. or Create some uber crazy lovecraft aberrations like the paradigmatic Mind flayers in the ELH that come back to this planar structure to finally conquer it. Give them all 20 levels of Psion too, etc... This should really shock them, I zap it and it stands there and laughs at me.... uh oh.... Plus convert the epic level magic spells for use as psionic powers, lots of their techniques like anti-magic fields etc... are useless against psionics. One fun thing is to take something they have no fear of and throw like a million of them at them. They should now have no fear of great wyrm dragons, but what about a thousand of them at once.
Mystery Man 02-15-05, 02:31 PM	:evillaugh Bamf them to the negative energy plain and drain them to level 1. :evillaugh
Aneul 02-15-05, 03:36 PM	So they are in the level 35 ballpark, eh. What wouled they do if, for instance, a massive 50 HD Shadow Dragon Dracolich Dragon Acendant 10th level (This is using rules from Draconomican) suddenly got freed from the effects of some sort of powerful spell which had it bound for the last... oh.... Three Thousand years? Imagine- they return to Toril to find most of the Heartlands a withered ruin full of undead and shadows, the Chosen running for cover, and all maner of other probelms which even they can't solve single handedly. And the beatury of it is, that when the beast is finialy confronted, it can level drain them with its breath weapon! Even a bunch of epics woun't likely make the saves nessesary, so after they slay the wyrm, they'll be a nice, comfortably mid epic level party again, and the Chosen can come back out of hiding to dish out punishment when they don't pay for their ales! Or prehaps, their unreuly behavior could upset the Law/Chaos balance in all of Toril (they are epic level, so its sort of possible..), forcing them to think about their actions, and maybe head off plane for a while to let things cool down. Hope (but doubt) that this helped.
ClobberinTime 02-16-05, 10:03 AM	I don't imagine the Gods of FR are going to like characters of this level running amok on Toril like someone said before. Maybe an alliance of two or three of them would send avatars to have a little talk with them. Seems like a job for Torm or Helm, either would really enjoy kicking the snot out of PCs who act the way you are describing.
tylerthehobo 02-16-05, 02:52 PM	I remember playing with the old "Basic" series from the 80s - the red, blue, aqua, black, and tan boxes. The tan box was the "immortals" series. You might just go check out some old immortals modules for ideas. The "masters" series modules were also pretty heavy. It sounds like you're not at a loss for ideas as much as challenges, though. One of the concepts behind the Immortals set was that all heroes have to retire sometime... Maybe it's time for them to roll up 1st level characters and have them start adventuring again in a Forgotten Realms that has been massively changed by the actions of their old characters (e.g. all the gods are dead, as Ao had a cosmic freakout). The Dragonlance novels were pretty good for ideas about life in a godless world...
Grishnor 02-16-05, 05:46 PM	You have 25 players running characters ranging in level from 26th to 37th? Yes, its not a consistent 25 every week but it ranges from like 15-25. And to the other poster your right, ideas aren't the probelm its more of coming up with something that challenges. Past 3 months or so I've been running the game to handle small things, like taking care of their followers and cohorts, business's, kingdom's even. Alot of dialogue and character depth mainly. I've been dropping a few plot line hints to get them interested in leaving Toril for good. I got ahold of the 2nd edition planescape box set which has some pretty wicked stuff in it. And don't get me wrong, its not like the party is running around destroying stuff. They know I'll put the smackdown on them with some avatars or other epics in FR. I've already had them get warnings from Mask, Mystra, Shar, Torm and even Tempus once when they picked a fight (and won) with the Red Knight. But they just are so dominant in social situations. Almost demanding the respect of kings just because their pockets are heavier and if they wanted to could wipe out everyone in the throne room and be gone before something bad happened to them.
ClobberinTime 02-17-05, 09:47 AM	You are the only DM for all 20 of them, how many DMs do you guys have??
DRdrizzt13beauOW 02-17-05, 12:56 PM	:evillaugh Bamf them to the negative energy plain and drain them to level 1. :evillaugh LMAOROFL that is the BEST idea I have ever heard
GothWulf 02-17-05, 04:51 PM	LMAOROFL that is the BEST idea I have ever heard Yep, I agree....taking them all back to 1st lvl would definately teach them a lesson....or you could always do what I did when I had a group like that <not nearly as large, but just about that powerful>...kill them. Not "send a god's avatar to teach them a lesson" and have a big fight....or "some big bad NPCs ambush them" but just kill them...straight out...no save, no argument, nothing. Any Greater god has the power to do this to any mortal at any time they want unless they happen to be protected by another god. If you want justification, then set them up. Con them into doing something really bad, like destroying a major temple of Kelemvor,which the characters think is actually something else, then, in his godly wrath he just snuffs 'em out or some such. If you dont wanna be that cold hearted, then trap them somewhere....how about an ancient Mythal that will let you in, but not out, effectively removing them from being "power players" in the world but lets you throw just about anything you want at them without effecting the rest of the Realms as they try to find a way to escape. Wulfe
Grishnor 02-17-05, 04:58 PM	I have 2 narrators that are also players, but yes I'm the only DM. Its really not that bad. Most of the small dialogue stuff we do in between games via email or phone/aim. I call it Blue Book. When they right down what they are doing for the month in between each game. I'm usually pretty rigid and stricked<sp> so they know not to take anything to far. I guess I'll take the last advice and put them into a deception, make them think they are destroying something that doesn't matter and just squash 2-3 of the main people that did the destroying. Put the other ones in check.
ClobberinTime 02-17-05, 05:10 PM	Let their greed get them into trouble, start dropping rumors about some artifact that they will get greedy over, hopefully only the really greed ones will go and then bam, do em in.
Arwyn_Severisk 02-17-05, 06:03 PM	This is an idea that will eventually lead to your players starting over as 1st lvl chars Ao has had to squash a rebellion among the gods executing X amount of gods he approaches your chars and says that he will allow only X amount to become gods so the thing they have to fight among themselves to see who ascends to godhood of course theyll split and use their kingdoms and resources creating a war among them and they will ally and backstab till that amount are left then their gods and the others are dead . End of old campaign start of the new one
primemover003 02-17-05, 06:25 PM	This is why I call them the Ridiculous Levels... :rolleyes:
Mookie37 02-18-05, 01:39 PM	Hit 'em with the most powerful force in the known multi-verse: Gary Gygax on a week long coke binge. Seriously though, there's really no point in a campaign of that high a level, with that many people. But since they are involved with the blood war, you can always force them deep into the Abyss/Nine Hells by having whichever side they're allied against atempt to suck Toril/their kingdoms into they're own plane ala El in Hell. then just cruise dicefreaks and get the good stats for Asmodeus and/or Demogorgon, you know, the ones where they have divine rank 18-21 and the like. That should give 'em one hell of a challange
Tarus 02-25-05, 12:33 PM	----------Session [Insert Current Number]---------- The sun dawns bright. The [However many PCs] of you begin to stir from your deep slumber. Your eyes flutter open, and focus on your scrawny arms. You then realize that your adventures running amoke, slaying godly wizards, was nothing more than a dream... [Go on to tell them that they are 17 years old, living at home with parents in a farming cottage, and their equipment consists of a wooden sword and padded armor. "Dem kobolds 'ave been rummagin' through my crops at night," said the old farmer. "I'll give ye lads two copper each if ye git rid o' 'em for me."]
CuttinCurt 02-25-05, 04:58 PM	Not that I know everything, but I believe that people who get this high and earn it, want to play thier characters out. I have never reached epic level. I have gotten to 13th once. Do I want to earn my way up to an epic character? Yes. So lets stop with all the kill em all jokes, and give this guy an opportunity to get an idea that will challenge these dudes. Where I do agree with some of the posters is that the next thing you put them up against should be linked to the negative plane, or able to drain xp/stats permanantly. The Shadow Dragon from the Draconomicon is good. Perhaps a Vampiric Ghostly Shadow dragon. That sounds even better. Lich or not, the thing is a flying disaster zone. I mean, we can all come up with something for you to think about, but really, there needs to be a challenge, and Dragons are fine for that. Planar travel is good for that too. But on Toril, there could be lots of possibilities. Like time travel to the time of the Kingdom of Nethriil. Or back when the elves were the rulers of all that was magic and humans were not trusted. But most of all, they (the pc's) would not be known, and thus thier reputation is nothing, and they are in a place where lvl 35 mages are abundant, and the magic is much more powerful that it is in present day Faerun. The scrolls of Nethril hold great magics, but also do the other mages of the realm. Gaining these new spells that are much more powerful than thiers should be good. There might be a god or two that dont exist back that far in time, and the cleric might not have a god to pray to now. Manythings that can change the whole complexion of the campaign and allow the group to play in a toril they never thought possible. Those are my ideas. I hope they helped. CC
BahamutBoy 02-28-05, 01:44 PM	I have an idea, this would be very challenging, but give multiple tries. Now, lets say Shar had found a way to destroy Selune and all of her allies. If Shar could accomplish such a feat, she plans to overthrow the Overgod, Ao. If she succedes, all of Toril, the planes, etc. would be destroyed. So Ao summons the PCs to his presence. He wants them to fight for him in this apocalyptic, end-of-the-age kind of war. The PCs can choose their own path, defend Selune, or to help Shar. This might ultimately obliterate Toril, but if Ao is kept alive, he could build some sort of Neo-Toril or Neo-Faerun or some completely ne world or campaign world (that gets them to say good-bye to Toril for some brave new world).
ClobberinTime 03-01-05, 07:33 PM	Better yet, split them up, have a war between the gods where some will have to side with one set of gods and some with another set of gods. Force them into it, clerics rangers paladins stop getting their spells, wizards are denied the weave, etc.... etc.... Until they have all chosen different sides, make it a multisided battle for the fate of the universe decided by the winners who then ascend to the conquered deities portfolios... Now their new character live in a world with the winning gods and the old characters as new gods.... or maybe just divine rank 0 tyrants who need to eventually be overthrown themselves... A world of eternal darkness where the regular weave is a secret.... A world of tyrants ruling over millions of slaves.... A world of daisy eating elves where humans are enslaved and butchered for harming trees. A grim world of mountains and war... A world so lawful there are no new ideas anymore.... etc... etc... etc... Maybe even tell the new characters that they are on some other prime to have them find out they are on a toril of the far future which has reaped the fate of their previous characters defeat or victory.... Trust me they will fall to their knees and scream 'you bastards you bastards, you did it you did it' in their beards and loincloths....
Mij 03-02-05, 03:56 PM	Overall I would say it's time for those characters to retire. Have them live out there lives as Kings Npc's in the game and start over, When a Player in a game meets someone in the game now controlled by the DM and is the king, emperor or whatever you do get a bit of a buzz over it. 37th Level geeez, that must get a bit boring being so powerful
Huggy Lowdown 03-02-05, 07:24 PM	If you are a DM and the players in your game are 37th level... I say set them loose on the world, let them go crazy. It's not like you can police 37th level characters anyway. Let them tear Toril apart, set them loose on other epic characters in the Realms campaign, like the chosen of Mystra, or have them destroy citys like Waterdeep, or Silverymoon. Then after they get that out of their system, start a new game.
Ramius_Mordale 03-02-05, 08:27 PM	I believe I read somewhere in the realms that there are more powerful creatures and characters throughout faerun then what is stated in the book. My suggestion is take them to the Underdark, and trust me they should still have a great chance of dying in that world. No one is more powerful then what comes out of that place, after all an elder brain at its base CR is a 25. Tact on some levels of wizard or sorcerer (or psionic class if you use the XPB) an army of Mind flayers that use that martial prestige class they have in the Underdark book. Army of Beholders, maybe go past the Spine of the World and try to see what lies beyond it. Go to one of the undiscovered continents or heck, get creative and have levels added to every buff normal race and make them epic. Or close to that, maybe an experienced army of Werebeasts getting ready to rampage throughout faerun. Also remember, although there aren't many active epic police forces known on Faerun, it doesn't mean they don't exist period. After all no one knew Ao existed until the Time of Troubles, and as far as mortals are concerned they have either forgotten him or have no more proof of his existance (Ao purposely erased himself from history books and the like. Only a very few people really believe he still exists and still "worship" him but still he ignores them). Plus there are probably artifacts that could really screw them up if put in the right (or wrong) hands without making the Npc that wields it sickly disgustingly powerful. Plus remember Kings (or Queens) probably have a champion(s) of epic level to deal with such rude behavior. If you're dealing with elves or unknown dungeons in Faerun long forgotten and was once apart of the old elven nations of the Crown Wars there are tons of creatures and epic items and creatures of all types that probably guard those dungeons. Basically, the world is only as low powered as you make it. If the PCs are running around like a horde of powerful beings that think they don't have to answer to anyone, then start throwing a buff epic level party against them that knows about them. Have there strongholds raided by rogues that steal their wealth, allow the organizations of Faerun to operated without holding the boxing gloves on. At this level, PCs shouldn't get weepy eyed if their character dies, after all they have had a good run. Planar travel is also always an option, but if they still want to stay in Toril and be apart of it then say extra planar forces are encrotching on Faerun or some such thing to lead them off into planar adventures, but also say that epic creatures and npcs are becoming more abundent. Maybe ancient planar travelers back in the old times of Faerun return to see these young punks going around acting irresponsible with their power and decided to teach them all a lesson. And don't ever challenge them as a group, alienate them as much as possible with epic magic barring teleportations and the like that give the other pcs warnings of the others under attack. Use trained assassin squads that literally single out each character by themselves and kill them (or try to) in their sleep or when they are all alone. Really the only thing that allows your Pcs full reign is you as DM. As DM it falls to you to out think your Pcs. You are DM you are the ultimate master of their fate, so if you think they are schooling Forgotten Realms too easily, then start making the world your own and make your own police forces to keep them from abusing them. If they start getting haughty and arrogant start using an alignment point system to see if their still good (if good pcs are going around not obeying the laws of the land regularly from good nations or just being tyrants to the less powerful people of the realms and treating them badly) then start shifting their alignment as such. Also if they are doing a great deal of evil acts then you could have adventurers trying to gain power to confront them. Destroying their strongholds, businesses and the like giving them a taste of their own medicine back when they were that level doing it to their villains. The possibilities are only limited by your own imagination. But since you have such a large group, maybe you should also seriously sit down with these people and discuss retiring the campaign completely. If you really are having way too much trouble dealing with their characters being grossly powerful then it should be a sign to you to either break the group up into a smaller group(s) to make challenges more plausable or to quit playing the campaign and retire it. Well I hope that helps out a bit, maybe points you in the right direction, but its pretty much been said before. There is my two silver pieces worth. -Ramius-
Sorcerer King 03-03-05, 11:06 AM	There is a time in every gamers life that he must retire he favorite character, and with 25 players at the epic level something is gona have to give...Thats a bit too much work for a DM, I don't care how good your are no one man has the three heads and six arms that would be needed to properly run a game of that size...And I'm talking about combat, I mean you can spend all night just fighting with a group that big, but what I am talking about is the most important part of the game Role-Playing, You really can't expect to have enought time to have a Quality Rp session with that many people, it would seem to me that every player would get maybe 15 minutes of Rp in an average 8 hr game...If you feel your game hasn't suffered from such an abundence of players you gotta let me know what your system is.
Sigurd van Norhusen 03-03-05, 11:47 AM	...have them find the Head of Vecna. At least 1 problem will solve itself then. :P
Razz 03-03-05, 01:45 PM	Let this be proof that WotC needs to release more epic material (Epic Insights was great, until WotC decided we, the consumer, weren't good enough to have a little freebies here and there). That's the problem with WotC, they don't have anymore epic material (epic feats, epic monsters, epic spells, epic items, epic psionics, epic prestige) beyond the ELH, the old Epic Insight articles, splatterings of it in recent 3.5 books and Dragon Magazine. They need to release a Complete Epic book (modeled after the other Complete book series) and they need to focus more epic material into Forgotten Realms. We need more deity statistics (the main 30 in Faiths&Pantheons + Kiaransalee WE needs to expand, we need stats on Shevarash, Arvoreen, Auppenser, Amaunator, Bhaal, etc. etc.), we need more epic NPCs, we need epic monsters (fortunately, Champions of Ruin will have the Elder Evils....oooh I can't wait...). I DM a group of 6 characters of levels 27-29 in Forgotten Realms, and I need something to challenge them myself at times.
ClobberinTime 03-07-05, 02:08 PM	part of the fun is really surprising them. Wouldn't they die of shock when Alusair slices and dices one of them because she is actually 40th level, or the Simbul or Anyone they meet...
Airicx Velysian 03-07-05, 07:31 PM	Don't any of them feel it's time to retire the party? Geez! The game is much more fun when you have a strong character, but not so strong that you can't find challenges. Do one final campaign and give them the option of promoting themselves to godhood-then retire them.
Horathgar 03-10-05, 10:20 AM	I don't think you have to Bamf them to the negative energy plane to make them level 1 again. There are a FEW options with which to start them back at Slate level. 1. I'm thinking Rebirth, some spell hits them, from some random type deity, or maybe an astral dragon or something equally silly, and poof they are all level 1 and 16 again. Thats more of a FORCING Them to do so 2. I'm thinking CHILDREN, let them retire their GODS, and play mere mortals that can possibly get help from their godlike parents, sorta like lil pokemon for the gods, eww, i can't believe i just said that. Gives them the idea that the campaign still flows in the same timeline they created with their origonal characters. you could make new feats and use AP or something of the sort to actually call their parents from the 'heavens' to assist them from time to time. Almost like having a pocket god that the origonals didn't have. Its really hard to actually PLAY 20+ characters and give them any challenge thats even worthy of them having. You have to remember that if your enemy is level 30 he has to play like he's survived that long. With proper defenses, spells, and not to walk out some door and get slayed instantly. Someone with 25 intelligence shouldn't be playing a buffoon to be outsmarted by your level 30 warrior type. I'm sure its a chalalnge for the DM to even imagine something that a level 30 mage might find issue in fighting. I know i do. Rath