Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tyshanis 01-15-08, 01:57 PM	I been reading alot of the posts latley and i would like to thank all of the quitters and naysayer for killing the realms. yes thats right, not the devolpers the fans. Along time ago there was a place called Krynn, it had some realy cool aspects and potental, then some changes were made, everone hated it didn't buy it and now its dead. I've played in the realms since the 80's, and every update the realms flourished, because people read and wanted t be part of this world. Now the same people that cryed over 3rd edition, 3,4 etc are crying about 4th (sorry$th) edition, effectivly killing the realms I love. It's like a pet you feed it it lives, you don't it dies.
Stigger 01-15-08, 02:23 PM	Now this is truly amusing... a few dozen people I'm sure will utterly destroy the Realms... right. This is a very simple business principle at work. If WotC puts out a quality product that the consumers like and want, then the Realms will survive. If they do not produce a product people want, then the Realms will either have to change or disappear. This has nothing to do with the fans killing it or not, its a question of WotC producing quality work and anticipating the wants and interests of the Market, and tailoring things to meet those wants and interests. If they're right, then good for them, if they're wrong, then we'll all have to live with the consequences of that.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 03:02 PM	Blame the fans for not wanting to purchase material they don't like? :uh-huh: Don't blame the diners when the chef burns the meal....
Alediran 01-15-08, 03:04 PM	I agree with Mr. Stigger and Mr. MT63
Tyshanis 01-15-08, 03:09 PM	Now this is truly amusing... a few dozen people I'm sure will utterly destroy the Realms... right. This is a very simple business principle at work. If WotC puts out a quality product that the consumers like and want, then the Realms will survive. If they do not produce a product people want, then the Realms will either have to change or disappear. This has nothing to do with the fans killing it or not, its a question of WotC producing quality work and anticipating the wants and interests of the Market, and tailoring things to meet those wants and interests. If they're right, then good for them, if they're wrong, then we'll all have to live with the consequences of that. A few dozen are you kidding me? how many people do think play in the realms? Now lets twist your words to suit my needs. If WOTC produce crap than the fans don't buy it then WOTc says well the realms isn't selling anymore lets move on. So who's to blame the supply or the demand. WOTC is producing the realms. If we the consumers don't buy it then it goes away, they will try to change it once and if it doesn't get better bye-bye. Lets think about history, Maztica, Birthright, Darksun, need I go on? ALSO why are we getting worked up on previews? The only thing that doesn't appeal me as a player and a dm is that Drizzt is still alive.
Tyshanis 01-15-08, 03:14 PM	Don't blame the diners when the chef burns the meal.... Well said...I actually have no counter this.
Alediran 01-15-08, 03:16 PM	Again, it's their fault if they don't do the things the public want. The client always is right. Does that phrase rings a bell? This it proven by the amazing sales Grand History of the Realms has.
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 03:17 PM	Sorry but I have no interest in the Spellplague or the events that lead up to it. Ot the whole sillieness with Tyr/Tymora/Helm/Sune, etc. Or a 100 year time jump. I like the Realms as they are now. With those high level NPCs and diverse and different deities and places. So are you saying I should buy something that 1)I don't like, 2) Don't need. Just so the designers who are putting out this stuff that I don't like will continue to do so. And no one is killing the Realms...I will still play in the Realms I am just going to ignore what WotC does. In my opinion what is happening is that WotC has stoped publishing the Realms.
Rauric 01-15-08, 03:17 PM	Stigger hits the mark. Marcus not so much. The chef hasn't burned the soup, just made it a bit different. The people who like the old way either will get used to it or order something else. I guess it is the same result in some ways as if he did burn it. I just wanted to pint out it is not necessarily ruined, just different.;) I don't mind the changes btw. Just in case you may assume I am a 4e FR detractor. I can listen and respect reason though, even if the poster and myself do not see eye to eye on the new FR itself. I do hate seeing the constant complaining about the new direction, but that is to be expected.
Alkasyn 01-15-08, 03:22 PM	I been reading alot of the posts latley and i would like to thank all of the quitters and naysayer for killing the realms. yes thats right, not the devolpers the fans. Along time ago there was a place called Krynn, it had some realy cool aspects and potental, then some changes were made, everone hated it didn't buy it and now its dead. I've played in the realms since the 80's, and every update the realms flourished, because people read and wanted t be part of this world. Now the same people that cryed over 3rd edition, 3,4 etc are crying about 4th (sorry$th) edition, effectivly killing the realms I love. It's like a pet you feed it it lives, you don't it dies. So all you guys and gals that say you love the realms but are not going to buythe new realms, that you love so much, are effectivly killing it. So good job. Defend yourselves all you want, but at the end of the day i'm still right. Thats all. Are you trying to make me sade because I don't like the lroe changes in the 4th edition?? If so, you fail.
Tyshanis 01-15-08, 03:34 PM	oh I forgot its a forum. All I'm saying is if we don't support it it dies. Understandably some will embrace other will reject. This could be the worst thing from the realms since COV. But did will still purchace it some yes, some no. I hated what they did to dragonlance, and am not overly fond of what is going in the realms. but i will get the new setting simply for the history or if i like what I see will use it my games So are you saying I should buy something that 1)I don't like, 2) Don't need. Just so the designers who are putting out this stuff that I don't like will continue to do so. You obviously don't smoke.
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 03:43 PM	You obviously don't smoke. Actualy I do...I enjoy smoking though(cig that is). I am not enjoying what they are doing with the Realms though.
Bonzai 01-15-08, 03:55 PM	Heh, I was one of those who used to love Dragonlance, and left after the changes. I loved Krynn. Unfortunatley it wasn't Krynn after the changes. You would think they would have learned from that mistake. Unfortunately I see history repeating it's self.
Uzzy 01-15-08, 04:02 PM	Wait.. what? We're to blame if WoTC put out an inferior product that doesn't appeal to us? Seriously? My money is precious to me. I'm not going to waste it on substandard product that doesn't appeal to me. I've got other things to buy. In my world, the consumer is king, not the company (although it's clear some believe otherwise, going by some of the posts I've seen recently)
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 04:13 PM	Stigger hits the mark. Marcus not so much. :pbbbtt: To be honest, I'm getting tired of all the page-long posts about this subject - everything that needs too be said already has - a million times! I was just trying to 'Drive the Point Home', as it were. ;) I REALLY enjoyed the cigarette analogy - so, if you buy the new Realms products, you may or may not enjoy them... but they WILL eventually make you sick and die? :uh-huh: I'm sorry, but I find that funny as hell. :rofl:
Rauric 01-15-08, 04:17 PM	:pbbbtt: To be honest, I'm getting tired of all the page-long posts about this subject - everything that needs too be said already has - a million times! I was just trying to 'Drive the Point Home', as it were. ;) I REALLY enjoyed the cigarette analogy - so, if you buy the new Realms products, you may or may not enjoy them... but they WILL eventually make you sick and die? :uh-huh: I'm sorry, but I find that funny as hell. :rofl: The whole cig thing got me confused. On the other hand Marcus I thought we were trying to see who can see the same thing over and over in multiple posts. I may be in the top 5. There is pretty stiff competition though. ;)
Fingoldfin 01-15-08, 04:17 PM	I still love the Realms, but I won't buy that 4e crap. They created a new setting and slapped the Forgotten Realms logo on it. I hate most of the changes so why should I waste my money on new source books and novels?
Rauric 01-15-08, 04:19 PM	I dislike the whole new setting nonsense. Whatever gets you through the day I guess though.:D
Fingoldfin 01-15-08, 04:32 PM	Tyshanis, Stop attacking other people for not buying products they don't like. If you're so worried that the "New" Realms won't survive you could spend all of your money on Realms books to keep it alive. Put your money where your mouth is and buy 20 copies of each 4e Realms book that comes out.
Fingoldfin 01-15-08, 04:37 PM	I dislike the whole new setting nonsense. Whatever gets you through the day I guess though.:D I just want to point out that it was the Realms designers that started calling 4e Realms a new setting. Not me and not other "naysayers." Also...if it walks like a dwarf and it talks like a dwarf...etc. ;) :P Rauric must be stopped!!! :D
Rauric 01-15-08, 04:41 PM	I just want to point out that it was the Realms designers that started calling 4e Realms a new setting. Not me and not other "naysayers." Also...if it walks like a dwarf and it talks like a dwarf...etc. ;) :P Rauric must be stopped!!! :D Well, damn them too then. :D
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 04:45 PM	I still love the Realms, but I won't buy that 4e crap. They created a new setting and slapped the Forgotten Realms logo on it. I hate most of the changes so why should I waste my money on new source books and novels?Truth be told, it looks TOO much like the old World to me. Either they should have continued down the conservative path, and milked us dry for the next 30-40 years, or, they should have went all-out and really shaken things up. thats what I was kinda hoping for with all these announcements we've been hearing. You see, I knew they were changing stuff (we all did), so I accepted the fact that we were getting a brand-new setting, that they were calling Forgotten Realms. I still had my old Realms to play in if I hated it, and who knows? Maybe the new setting would have attracted me as well. Not because it was FR, but because it was INTERESTING. So I would have at least two versions of FR to play in -possibly three counting the Spellplagued Years - and I was getting used to the idea and growing 'warm' toward it. However, this does not appear to be nearly as devastating as everyone feared. In fact, it looks like the old setting, and they just 'plunked down' some stuff to make it look different. No one liked Unther before (well, most folks, anyway), and now no one will play in it still. What's the difference? My PCs never went there, and now I have no reason to. Same can be said about all the other stuff 'they changed'. I was starting to look forward to a brand new setting, and instead I got FR with a ½ dozen other settings 'dripped' onto it. Its not FR 4e - it's FR messy. I just don't see enough original, intuitive changes for it to be called 'different', and yet they managed to change just enough to drive off long-time fans. So I don't think it will accomplish their goal at all - it still looks like the Realms, and Realms-haters will still avoid it. I just DON'T understand what went into the decision making process here...
Rauric 01-15-08, 04:48 PM	I don't think it is messy, but I do agree about the not being that devastating.
sfdragon 01-15-08, 04:57 PM	oh great another one of these threads.\ hmmm what to say what to say...... well I wont buy something i dont like, and I wish people would stop saying the fans are killing the FR, the devs are the ones who kill it off, whether is is or is not a table top game , when they mess around with it and the fans dont like it. for every action there is an equal reaction to it. IMO: better for the realms if it goes back to Ed Greenwood. ps: i liked all the gods, dont care for the dragonborn, dont like the spellplague all that much. and if i dont like whats in the frcs $E, i wont buy it. Crew this is the Captain speaking, I'm activating Cole Protocol article 11, abandon ship
Fire_Wraith 01-15-08, 05:25 PM	All I have to say is.... ...don't feed the Trolls. :mage:
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 05:30 PM	I don't think it is messy, but I do agree about the not being that devastating.Well, my point is, its not very different at all. Do you agree? That brings me to my second point - why couldn't this stuff been in a 5 or 10 year time-jump? If they re-started the Realms in the year 1400 DR, it would have been a 'bright new century' to start things in, long-time fans would have still been able to use older NPCs and plothooks, and the 'newbs' they were hoping to attract would have gotten FR: Year 1, which would have went over big with the right advertising. It just seems so minimal, that it was pointless.
Tyshanis 01-15-08, 05:38 PM	Tyshanis, Stop attacking other people for not buying products they don't like. If you're so worried that the "New" Realms won't survive you could spend all of your money on Realms books to keep it alive. Put your money where your mouth is and buy 20 copies of each 4e Realms book that comes out. 1. I was not "attacking" anyone. Not my style, and I'm really not good at it. I was stating a belief, but was quickly set right by MK63, with something so simple, as a food analogy, that now I feel i need to defend myself. 2. I will prob. buy 2 copies of every FR stuff that comes out as i have since the beginning, mine and the players copies. Don't hate. And how can you say that you hate the changes that have been made when only a few have been released, and only in preview, no book out yet, how do you know you love the non released changes. Yes there are some things that I don't like, Dragonborn ,whatever:rolleyes:, Halruaa gone that erks me the most but its understandable, considering, OOO mystra died again, just thought Shar would do it. Your getting po'd over something that hasn't happened yet. But to each his own I guess. My players and i are looking forward to it. Haven't seen such a major change since the TOT, and it's somewhat refreshing. So they changed places noone ever goes, Has anyone ever played in Unther? Really? there are bright sides, "# dependant" pc's are gone.:cheer: WHO WOULD OF THOUGHT I'D BE AN ANTAGONIST.:weep:
Tyshanis 01-15-08, 05:43 PM	Heh, I was one of those who used to love Dragonlance, and left after the changes. I loved Krynn. Unfortunatley it wasn't Krynn after the changes. You would think they would have learned from that mistake. Unfortunately I see history repeating it's self. As was I which is why I'm worried.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 05:43 PM	I still feel that this should have been an "all or nothing" scenario - most of the new changes* we are hearing about just leaves me with a feeling of "so what?" * I say 'new changes', because I'm not lumping in that stuff from the end of the GHotR - which technically happened in 3e, not 4e!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 06:16 PM	ALSO why are we getting worked up on previews? The only thing that doesn't appeal me as a player and a dm is that Drizzt is still alive. Well, let me explain it, in case you haven't heard of it before: People have different opinions than you do! Amazing, isn't it? And no, I don't plan to buy products I don't like out of "guilt" or something. If that bothers you...too bad! I find your "righteous indignation" more amusing than sobering.
Tyshanis 01-15-08, 06:46 PM	Well, let me explain it, in case you haven't heard of it before: People have different opinions than you do! Amazing, isn't it? And no, I don't plan to buy products I don't like out of "guilt" or something. If that bothers you...too bad! I find your "righteous indignation" more amusing than sobering. oh did i touch a nerve, next time I'll aim for a lung or something. And in the small little world i live in everyone has my opinoin:P glad i ammused you at leat someone is laughing
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 06:56 PM	oh did i touch a nerve, next time I'll aim for a lung or something. And in the small little world i live in everyone has my opinoin:P glad i ammused you at leat someone is laughing Indeed.:P Look, you'd get your point across better if you didn't take such an accusatory tone. Then people will respond to your point and not to your manner.
Tyshanis 01-15-08, 07:02 PM	Indeed.:P Look, you'd get your point across better if you didn't take such an accusatory tone. Then people will respond to your point and not to your manner. my appologies, though tone is not something i can type well, something is not something i can type well. But once again my appologies for any offense.
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 07:05 PM	Hey Tyshanis I am curious could you explain your smoking comment? It really confused me.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 07:08 PM	my appologies, though tone is not something i can type well, something is not something i can type well. But once again my appologies for any offense. Apology accepted.
WizO_Kayn 01-15-08, 07:09 PM	my appologies, though tone is not something i can type well, something is not something i can type well. But once again my appologies for any offense. Nicely done Tyshanis : ) You totally earn a :cookie:
Tyshanis 01-15-08, 07:14 PM	Hey Tyshanis I am curious could you explain your smoking comment? It really confused me. i am a pack and half a day smoker for the last 20 years, I hate it i can't quit(tried like 15 times) and still i buy the things. The coment was made to purchasing something one doesn't like, and doesn't need, just so the people making it can stay in buisness ie. cigarettes. Most smokers I know(15years +of smoking) hate that got hooked at a young age but still smoke cause its addicting etc. basically it was an out of context jibe, (you have to know me) But the reply was very funny. SWEET A COOKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Diffan 01-15-08, 07:27 PM	Tyshanis, I used to feel the same way when all this first came out. I blamed the complainers about how they're going to kill 4e even before it gets off the ground. Now I realize that it just isn't possible. I've come to believe that most people will adapt and and go on using 4e products. The many nay-sayers on this and other threads is but a small portion of actual players in the world that it just doesn't seem possible for FR to die. You compare whats happening to the death of DL. I've read DL for many long years and it just didn't seem a viable campaign setting. I have to admit, i still bought the DLCS and found it to be sub-par to anything FR has put out. My point is that you can't compare FR to DL because the two are so much different, even with other sources outside of table top D&D. How many specilized characters came out of DL? Raistlin.........and thats it. Now how many from FR? Drizztx2, Wulfgar, Bruenor, Storm, Elminster, Guenhwyvar that I can think of. Don't fret my friend, FR will be here for a long time.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 09:19 PM	DL died because it had Dragonborn... errr... I mean Draconians. :rolleyes: ;) :P
Dark Wizard 01-15-08, 10:43 PM	Dragonlance isn't quite dead. It had a campaign setting book for 3e and a few supplements, plus lots of novels. That is a lot better than most other truly dead settings like Dark Sun or Mystara which had no support outside of fan sources minus a few articles in Dragon magazine (as far as I know).
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 11:55 PM	But it will probably never reach the popularity it did in its heyday. And if it could happen to them... :rolleyes:
Rauric 01-16-08, 12:23 AM	DL had a big problem. It was only a cool stting during the war of the lance. It also had a bigger problem. The NPCs there and novels made pcs feel slightly insignificant. You can say what you want this was the vibe I got from anyone that played the setting.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 01:45 AM	Sounds like what a lot of the folks (who don't really understand the setting) are saying about FR, now. Why do they feel a need to publish novels about a game world? Don't they know the novels ruined DL, and they will ruin FR as well! But then again, didn't Dragonlance start out as fiction, and then become a setting? I may be wrong there...
Fingoldfin 01-16-08, 02:09 AM	Tyshanis;14838479]1. I was not "attacking" anyone. Not my style, and I'm really not good at it. I was stating a belief, but was quickly set right by MK63, with something so simple, as a food analogy, that now I feel i need to defend myself. You posted, "Defend your selves all you want, but at the end of the day I'm still right." Your opening post in this thread was absolutely an attack on people that dislike the changes. Reread your opening post. 2. I will prob. buy 2 copies of every FR stuff that comes out as i have since the beginning, mine and the players copies. Don't hate. Ok. I'll only buy stuff I want. And how can you say that you hate the changes that have been made when only a few have been released, and only in preview, no book out yet, how do you know you love the non released changes. Yes there are some things that I don't like, Dragonborn ,whatever:rolleyes:, Halruaa gone that erks me the most but its understandable, considering, OOO mystra died again, just thought Shar would do it. Your getting po'd over something that hasn't happened yet. But to each his own I guess. My players and i are looking forward to it. Haven't seen such a major change since the TOT, and it's somewhat refreshing. So they changed places noone ever goes, Has anyone ever played in Unther? Really? I hate the changes that have been released. It's that simple. If there is something in 4e Realms that I'll like I haven't heard about it yet. That wouldn't change the fact that I think everything they released so far sucks. The only reason I haven't played in Unther is I can't get a hold of the Old Empires box set. I was hoping WotC would produce a 3.5e Old Empires source book. Now that they destroyed the area and replaced it with draconians that will never happen. Have fun gaming in the New Realms. I'll be playing in the Classic Realms. :D
Stigger 01-16-08, 05:05 AM	A few dozen are you kidding me? how many people do think play in the realms? Now lets twist your words to suit my needs. If WOTC produce crap than the fans don't buy it then WOTc says well the realms isn't selling anymore lets move on. So who's to blame the supply or the demand. WOTC is producing the realms. If we the consumers don't buy it then it goes away, they will try to change it once and if it doesn't get better bye-bye. Lets think about history, Maztica, Birthright, Darksun, need I go on? ALSO why are we getting worked up on previews? The only thing that doesn't appeal me as a player and a dm is that Drizzt is still alive. Twist all you like. Doesn't change the fact that the market is the ultimate authority in what is good and what isn't in this situation. Voting with your dollar and all that... the principle is quite simple really. If WotC produces something the majority of us don't like, and the majority of people out there don't buy it, then it sends a clear message that they need to try something else than the approach they've been using. Maybe do more market research, or hit up the folks on the boards, or maybe run a few focus groups at a few cons... any way it goes, its in their best interest to have us vote with our dollars, as it helps them to refine what we want and don't want, and increase their profits by putting out products that the majority of people want and will buy. Certainly its good for them in the short term to have us just buy whatever they put out, regardless of quality. But eventually, that good will is going to run out and the customer base starts to recede and word of mouth gets around that they're putting out worthless crap. That is definitely going to hurt them in the long term, so its in both of our best interest that we do vote with that dollar, them so they keep long term customer loyalty, us because we get higher quality products in the long run. We'll see where the Realms is concerned. I don't plan on buying into it with all of the changes from what I've seen so far, so as far as I'm concerned, its not going to be that great a loss to me if nothing further gets published. I'm not holding my breath for it tanking though, as much as my sense of spite might want it to. If it suffers the same fate as those other settings you mentioned, oh well. I'd rather have nothing put out for them, than something that's of abyssmal quality.
Khaelieth 01-16-08, 06:22 AM	Again, it's their fault if they don't do the things the public want. The client always is right. Does that phrase rings a bell? This it proven by the amazing sales Grand History of the Realms has. It was actually sold out when I tried buying it! I will get ahold of it somehow, though, and it'll probably be the last FR book I buy. 4th ed has changed too many things fundamentally, and the retconning is giving me a serious headache. I thought it was bad how difficult they made it to access the lesser elven gods in 3rd ed, now saying Sehanine's an aspect of Selune, when they're clearly not...
Alkasyn 01-16-08, 06:34 AM	Has anyone ever played in Unther? Really? Im Dming a campaign in Unther now.
Khaelieth 01-16-08, 10:51 AM	Im Dming a campaign in Unther now. Me too. Two Red Wizard PC's trying to bring it all down on Mulhorand! Vote YES to a Thayan occupited Unther!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-16-08, 02:17 PM	Tyshanis, I used to feel the same way when all this first came out. I blamed the complainers about how they're going to kill 4e even before it gets off the ground. Now I realize that it just isn't possible. I've come to believe that most people will adapt and and go on using 4e products. The many nay-sayers on this and other threads is but a small portion of actual players in the world that it just doesn't seem possible for FR to die. And whether or not that is the case, at the end of the day, the fact remains that no one owes it to you (or anyone else) to spend their money on luxury products they don't want for your benefit. To demand that they do is a spoiled brat mentality, and I will ALWAYS challenge it.
Sol_Odlanier 01-16-08, 02:52 PM	All I have to say is.... ...don't feed the Trolls. :mage: Nuff said.
Diffan 01-16-08, 03:07 PM	And whether or not that is the case, at the end of the day, the fact remains that no one owes it to you (or anyone else) to spend their money on luxury products they don't want for your benefit. To demand that they do is a spoiled brat mentality, and I will ALWAYS challenge it. Oh, I whole-heartedly agree. If someone doesn't like the way things are going with the new edition, they should have no compulsion to buy it. I hope people who don't like 4e don't convert. I just think that the majority of people will probably accept 4e and buy at least some of the newer products, hence keeping it alive and well. And lets not forget about the new players. In a few years, the Spellplague will be something that's always been there for some, and not pose a problem with any of their campaigns. Just because the Realms are changing, doesn't mean it's going to die or fall by the way-side.
DarkSongKnight 01-16-08, 03:33 PM	For those who don't like the way the Realms are going and are against 4e... I don't blame them. I don't like many of the changes. People aren't going to buy something they have no interest in. For them, its not the Realms they have learned about and come to love. WOTC is taking a risk. They're changing the Realms in hopes of garnering more new fans, but are risking losing their older fanbase. It might pay off, or it might not. I personally am waiting to see what the 4e Realms is going to be like before I decide if its for me or not. Granted, I don't enjoy the Realms-shaking events, major destruction, and deaths of deities left and right... but maybe something good will come out of it? I do enjoy the new articles and art. It looks promising, but at the same time the destruction and major changes are making me swoon. Tyshanis, your comment would come off as a little offensive, even if you didn't mean to be. Many people's emotions are high and their feelings are on the line. The Realms themselves are being gambled. Some will like the way the die (dice?) roll, others won't. Even if many fans who liked the older Realms refuse to buy the new products, I wouldn't blame them for the "failure" of the new Realms. It largely depends on WOTC's marketing strategy and if and how the new Realms appeals to audiences. Its best not to make things personal. That said, if Eilistraee kicks the bucket, it may be the straw that breaks the camel's back (on my part).
Fingoldfin 01-16-08, 07:05 PM	That said, if Eilistraee kicks the bucket, it may be the straw that breaks the camel's back (on my part). Ahh ... I think she is dead. It's one of the things Driz'zit talked about in the Orc King. He was a bit vague. Maybe there's some hope, but I think she's dead in 4e. :(
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 07:20 PM	Well, we certainly know she is WORSE OFF, but not neccessarily dead. I think the Drow in 4e are going to be exactly the way the are in 3e's DotU, which clearly stated that "Dark Elves form some worlds, like Toril, are mistaken when they think there are other Drow Gods" - or something to that effect. That book came out with 4e in mind, so I'm pretty sure everthing in it will still hold water in 4e.
Fingoldfin 01-16-08, 08:46 PM	Well, we certainly know she is WORSE OFF, but not neccessarily dead. I think the Drow in 4e are going to be exactly the way the are in 3e's DotU, which clearly stated that "Dark Elves form some worlds, like Toril, are mistaken when they think there are other Drow Gods" - or something to that effect. That book came out with 4e in mind, so I'm pretty sure everthing in it will still hold water in 4e. I think RAS spoiled the ending of the LP trilogy in the Orc King prologue. Wouldn't it be a big surprise if Eilistraee and most of her followers die at the end. They want to get rid of chosen and gods and turn the drow evil again. LP is the best way to accomplish all those tasks.
sfdragon 01-16-08, 08:52 PM	and that is a mistake, and will be one that comes back to bite them later
DarkSongKnight 01-16-08, 09:16 PM	and that is a mistake, and will be one that comes back to bite them later Agreed. Killing off deities and the chosen is a bad idea, in my opinion. Although, I have to admit, I'm glad they gave Eilistraee a novel trilogy to explain what is happening, and doesn't just say she is outright slain/defeated/tricked/upgraded, etc. (like how Mystra and others were destroyed/changed).
Fingoldfin 01-16-08, 09:27 PM	and that is a mistake, and will be one that comes back to bite them later I agree with you, it's a bad idea. After the line in Orc King and the line from DotUd I think that is the plan. Remember that Q'ilue is the chosen of 2 goddesses. WotC want to get rid of powerful, good NPCs and she would still be very powerful even after Mystra dies.
Rauric 01-16-08, 09:35 PM	Sounds like what a lot of the folks (who don't really understand the setting) are saying about FR, now. Why do they feel a need to publish novels about a game world? Don't they know the novels ruined DL, and they will ruin FR as well! But then again, didn't Dragonlance start out as fiction, and then become a setting? I may be wrong there... Yea, I thought the novels made DL and really helped FR as well. At first. RSEs really screwed the pooch though. Sie note, the only important people to the Realms are the players. That is true with any game world though.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 09:52 PM	True enough.
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 09:54 PM	"This comes as a surprise to many scholars, who believe the drow pantheon to consist of multiple deities. This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. But these deities no matter how strongly an individual drow might revere them, are secondary at best, barely visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen. The drow honor them, but they do not consider them true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion -- or fear them as deeply -- as they do Lolth. It is she, and she alone who stands as the heart of drow religion" - Drow of the Underdark. That's the quote I think.
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 02:34 AM	Yup, thats the one - I 'capsulated' it. ;) I would assume that that is what the FR Drow will look like come 4e.
Alediran 01-17-08, 06:46 AM	Which means they'll be back to be just a monster entry without depth.
Stigger 01-17-08, 07:34 AM	Too much money in them for now for that one to happen... maybe later when everyone is sick to death of them and could care less. Hopefully soon really. :D
Jarred_Garrison 01-18-08, 11:34 PM	Blame the fans for not wanting to purchase material they don't like? :uh-huh: Don't blame the diners when the chef burns the meal.... QFT. No need to say more.
XHereticX 01-18-08, 11:35 PM	I been reading alot of the posts latley and i would like to thank all of the quitters and naysayer for killing the realms. yes thats right, not the devolpers the fans. Along time ago there was a place called Krynn, it had some realy cool aspects and potental, then some changes were made, everone hated it didn't buy it and now its dead. I've played in the realms since the 80's, and every update the realms flourished, because people read and wanted t be part of this world. Now the same people that cryed over 3rd edition, 3,4 etc are crying about 4th (sorry$th) edition, effectivly killing the realms I love. It's like a pet you feed it it lives, you don't it dies. So all you guys and gals that say you love the realms but are not going to buythe new realms, that you love so much, are effectivly killing it. So good job. Defend yourselves all you want, but at the end of the day i'm still right. Thats all. Try telling the people here that DL is dead will you http://www.dlnexus.com/ ;) FR will never truely die as long as Ed and the gang are still around and there is still a dedicated enough fanbase.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-19-08, 09:21 PM	FR will never truely die as long as Ed and the gang are still around and there is still a dedicated enough fanbase. I agree.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-19-08, 10:03 PM	Diners saying the meal will be bad 'cause of the smells of the kitchen doesn't do chefs any justice either.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 11:12 PM	I see smoke coming from the kitchen - I don't wait until I'm dead to get out... Where there's smoke, there's fire. ;)
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 09:19 AM	Where there's smoke, there's fire. ;) -Unless Smoke from Mortal Kombat is involved. He was my favorite character.
Derren S. 01-22-08, 09:52 AM	FR will never truely die as long as Ed and the gang are still around and there is still a dedicated enough fanbase. But for some people this will not matter. For the people who don't buy FR book because of the 4E changes the FR is dead, no matter if it survives as a product or not.
sfdragon 01-22-08, 12:42 PM	-Unless Smoke from Mortal Kombat is involved. He was my favorite character. choose your fighter........ Smoke the dnd creater dude FIGHT
XHereticX 01-22-08, 07:42 PM	But for some people this will not matter. For the people who don't buy FR book because of the 4E changes the FR is dead, no matter if it survives as a product or not. Then I guess those people didn't have much to gain, so they didn't have much to lose either. Because if they did, they would have still been involved in some way shape or form.
Imruphel 01-24-08, 10:57 AM	At the moment, I am leaning toward hoping that FR dies as a campaign world for WotC (not that I wish WotC ill: I don't classify Hasbro as an "evil corporation (TM)"). Ownership then reverts to Ed and he can take it to another publisher. Hopefully the other publisher will lack the resources to publish novels so then we will have the "perfect" version of FR: no novels despoiling the landscape and Ed in creative control. (I'll add that I am not anti all FR novels, per se. I'm just tired of 20 years of RSEs.)
Alediran 01-24-08, 10:59 AM	Great, you are material for working in the Ye Classic Realms compilation project.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 11:17 AM	the dnd creater dude -Gary Gygax. At the moment, I am leaning toward hoping that FR dies as a campaign world for WotC (not that I wish WotC ill: I don't classify Hasbro as an "evil corporation (TM)"). Ownership then reverts to Ed and he can take it to another publisher. Hopefully the other publisher will lack the resources to publish novels so then we will have the "perfect" version of FR: no novels despoiling the landscape and Ed in creative control. (I'll add that I am not anti all FR novels, per se. I'm just tired of 20 years of RSEs.) -Well, in that case, the setting is both dead and crap. No more novels to keep the setting from stagnation. No more being able to use actual terms and ideas that have shaped a great deal of the Forgotten Realms' history over the years- No more Maztica, no more Kara-Tur, no more Zakhara, no more cosmology, no more specific spells, no more specific magic items, no more specific D&D terms... -The more and more people (not trying to single you out specifically) talk about how wonderful things would be if the setting reverted to Ed Greenwood, and everything became heavenly, and blah blah blah, the more I realize that that would be not only the worst thing that can happen to the Realms, but that I really don't like much of what Ed actually writes. A lot of that, however, might stem from all of the "if the setting reverted to Ed Greenwood, and everything would become heavenly" people. Ed Greenwood got the ball rolling, and heavily contributed to things, sure, it it is the likes of the Steve Schends, the Elaine Cunninghams, the Jeff Grubbs, and a lot of the little guys in between, who really don't get much credit (even the Rich Bakers every now and then) that make the Realms for me, via their writing, their ideas, etc. -Heretic? Perhaps. Proud heretic? Yes.
MaskedOne 01-24-08, 12:46 PM	I been reading alot of the posts latley and i would like to thank all of the quitters and naysayer for killing the realms. yes thats right, not the devolpers the fans. Along time ago there was a place called Krynn, it had some realy cool aspects and potental, then some changes were made, everone hated it didn't buy it and now its dead. I've played in the realms since the 80's, and every update the realms flourished, because people read and wanted t be part of this world. Now the same people that cryed over 3rd edition, 3,4 etc are crying about 4th (sorry$th) edition, effectivly killing the realms I love. It's like a pet you feed it it lives, you don't it dies. So all you guys and gals that say you love the realms but are not going to buythe new realms, that you love so much, are effectivly killing it. So good job. Defend yourselves all you want, but at the end of the day i'm still right. Thats all. As a general rule, I try to avoid paying people to do things that **** me off. Sometimes (i.e. taxes), paying people to **** me off is semi-mandatory, I'm in no rush to have a close relationship with the IRS. Product lines designed for entertainment however can't enact legal penalties if I don't give them money, WotC can either print things I do like or accept the loss in revenue. That's their concern. I have no intention of supporting policies I don't like by spending money on them that I can just as easily put elsewhere. The only real end result of spending money to buy crap is that the supplier decides crap is profitable to produce. Why in Heaven's name do I want WotC to think that?
Ryltar Swordsong 01-24-08, 06:08 PM	As a general rule, I try to avoid paying people to do things that **** me off. Sometimes (i.e. taxes), paying people to **** me off is semi-mandatory, I'm in no rush to have a close relationship with the IRS. Product lines designed for entertainment however can't enact legal penalties if I don't give them money, WotC can either print things I do like or accept the loss in revenue. That's their concern. I have no intention of supporting policies I don't like by spending money on them that I can just as easily put elsewhere. The only real end result of spending money to buy crap is that the supplier decides crap is profitable to produce. Why in Heaven's name do I want WotC to think that? *dingdingding* We have a winner!
Ryltar Swordsong 01-24-08, 06:12 PM	But for some people this will not matter. For the people who don't buy FR book because of the 4E changes the FR is dead, no matter if it survives as a product or not. I will not be buying 4e books, and I don't consider FR dead. The only change for me is the timeline will stop advancing.
Imruphel 01-26-08, 01:11 AM	(snip) is both dead and crap. No more novels to keep the setting from stagnation. No more being able to use actual terms and ideas that have shaped a great deal of the Forgotten Realms' history over the years- No more Maztica, no more Kara-Tur, no more Zakhara, no more cosmology, no more specific spells, no more specific magic items, no more specific D&D terms... Stagnation? Not at all and, in fact, quite the opposite. Stagnation comes from the RSEs resolving all the interesting hooks. The way to keep FR alive is to have a combination of regional books filled with hooks and adventures that allow the PCs to resolve same. I understand from another of your posts that you don't actually play in the Realms so I can understand that, from your perspective, the Realms would stagnate without novels because, for you, the Realms is not a world where you play games. The more and more people (not trying to single you out specifically) talk about how wonderful things would be if the setting reverted to Ed Greenwood, and everything became heavenly, and blah blah blah, the more I realize that that would be not only the worst thing that can happen to the Realms, but that I really don't like much of what Ed actually writes. A lot of that, however, might stem from all of the "if the setting reverted to Ed Greenwood, and everything would become heavenly" people. Ed Greenwood got the ball rolling, and heavily contributed to things, sure, it it is the likes of the Steve Schends, the Elaine Cunninghams, the Jeff Grubbs, and a lot of the little guys in between, who really don't get much credit (even the Rich Bakers every now and then) that make the Realms for me, via their writing, their ideas, etc. Hehe... another misunderstanding on your part. For me, the glory days of the Realms were the latter years of 2E when a combination of Steven Schend and Eric Boyd exercised a degree of creative control that got rid of a lot of the nonsense that had infected the earlier days of FR2E and produced some of the best products before or since (Faiths & Avatars etc...). Yes, I do like what Ed writes about the Realms... but I also love the stuff that is produced by people like Steven Schend, Eric Boyd, George Krashos, Tom Costa, Thomas Reid et al. As for novels, I would rather that they illustrated history rather than advanced the storyline. Of course, none of what I have written may make any business sense for a large corporation, but it would perfectly suit a smaller company with FR as its signature product.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:36 AM	Stagnation? Not at all and, in fact, quite the opposite. -Not really. Eberron is a snapsnot of a specific time period. People aren't actually moving until you begin a campaign. The novels that they have are noncanon, meaning that they don't actually count. The Forgotten Realms is a living, breathing world. Things change, yada, yada, yada. Novels help portray those changes much faster. Sourcebooks only have so much room, and changes presented in them slow things to a crawl. Wouldn't you consider a swamp, which does have drainage routes and such, albeit extremely slow working routes and such, stagnant? Especially in a large swamp, just like we have a large setting. I understand from another of your posts that you don't actually play in the Realms so I can understand that, from your perspective, the Realms would stagnate without novels because, for you, the Realms is not a world where you play games. -No, it has nothing to do with that. Without novels, you lose a large medium of how the setting grows, changes, synthesizes, metamorphasizes, and so on. In the entire run in 3e, we've gotten 1 book detailing the south (Shining South). Without the possibility of novels mentioning or directly taking place in said places, are we to believe that for 7 years (3-4 game time), absolutely nothing has been going on there? Hehe... another misunderstanding on your part. For me, the glory days of the Realms were the latter years of 2E when a combination of Steven Schend and Eric Boyd exercised a degree of creative control that got rid of a lot of the nonsense that had infected the earlier days of FR2E and produced some of the best products before or since (Faiths & Avatars etc...). -I did specifically say "not trying to single you out specifically", meaning I wasn't responding to your specific post, but the general idea behind it- that idea being, should Ed somehow regain rights to the setting, everything would be happy happy again. My point stands, however.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 09:55 AM	- -No, it has nothing to do with that. Without novels, you lose a large medium of how the setting grows, changes, synthesizes, metamorphasizes, and so on. In the entire run in 3e, we've gotten 1 book detailing the south (Shining South). Without the possibility of novels mentioning or directly taking place in said places, are we to believe that for 7 years (3-4 game time), absolutely nothing has been going on there? . Karsus, I think his point is that the Realms can very possibly advance in other means than novels. If they took money out of the novels, that gives them more bank to poar into supplying us with additional campaign supplements that will both advance the timeline and give us more detail into the world. Of course, I'm primarily a novel reader as well, and those books are what has made the FR a living breathing world of wonder to follow. But I agree, gamers can do without them.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 10:29 AM	Karsus, I think his point is that the Realms can very possibly advance in other means than novels. -I never disputed that, but that slows things down to a crawl, like the flow of water in a swamp. Stagnant. If they took money out of the novels, that gives them more bank to poar into supplying us with additional campaign supplements that will both advance the timeline and give us more detail into the world. -Or, they could take that money and use it to fund a Magic: the Gathering project. Or, more Eberron novels. Or, whatever else. There doesn't have to be "balance" (as in 1 less novel = 1 sourcebook, or whatever numbers you want to throw in there).
XHereticX 01-26-08, 10:36 AM	I never disputed that, but that slows things down to a crawl, like the flow of water in a swamp. Stagnant. Which many people do prefer. Some people tire of the fast pace and everchanging canon of the FR and may welcome changes. -Or, they could take that money and use it to fund a Magic: the Gathering project. Or, more Eberron novels. Or, whatever else. There doesn't have to be "balance" (as in 1 less novel = 1 sourcebook, or whatever numbers you want to throw in there). MTG looks like it is going through a decline, the new Lorawyn Expansion looks a little too much like the Plane of Faerie for comfort. Like I have said before, WoTC is running out of ideas. FR is also too valuable of a market for WoTC to just abandon it like that, I will admit however that they will highly likely poar more money into Eberron.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 11:07 AM	Novels ruined the gaming environment... PERIOD. Ed has said that it got to the point where authors were trying to "one-up one another", and we wound up with so many RSEs that we are tripping over them. Continuity wound up being broken - Rich Baker even stated that the Last Mythal storyline had to take place in the WRONG year, because someone had already NUKED the Year of the Risen Elfkin. Thats why we have a century timejump - not for the game, which James Wyatt so handilly demonstrates, but so that the authors (who can't be bothered with studying Realmslore) have more room to write in. If the novels didn't exist, we wouldn't be getting handed this cr@p timejump, which IMHO, will ruin FR for most fans. Grognardise didn't ruin the Realms - lack of setting knowledge on the part of authors did. :(
Jiggawha 01-26-08, 03:10 PM	For me, the glory days of the Realms were the latter years of 2E when a combination of Steven Schend and Eric Boyd exercised a degree of creative control indeed those were the days
JohnnieBurgess 01-26-08, 04:07 PM	If an writer wrote something that ruined the plot line dont print the book till the problem was fixed.:rolleyes: [QUOTE=MarkusTay63;14926243]Novels ruined the gaming environment... PERIOD. Ed has said that it got to the point where authors were trying to "one-up one another", and we wound up with so many RSEs that we are tripping over them. Continuity wound up being broken - Rich Baker even stated that the Last Mythal storyline had to take place in the WRONG year, because someone had already NUKED the Year of the Risen Elfkin.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:25 PM	If an writer wrote something that ruined the plot line dont print the book till the problem was fixed.:rolleyes: [QUOTE=MarkusTay63;14926243]Novels ruined the gaming environment... PERIOD. Ed has said that it got to the point where authors were trying to "one-up one another", and we wound up with so many RSEs that we are tripping over them. Continuity wound up being broken - Rich Baker even stated that the Last Mythal storyline had to take place in the WRONG year, because someone had already NUKED the Year of the Risen Elfkin. The thing is that most of the time the problems arise after the material gets printed and results in inconsistancy and retconning.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 08:28 PM	Which many people do prefer. Some people tire of the fast pace and everchanging canon of the FR and may welcome changes. That's kind of how I feel. On one hand, I do like the novels, and I expect some changes to occur. Heck, sometimes I even enjoy those changes! On the other hand, I feel "burnt out" by the sheer pace and number of "RSEs" in the recent novels, to the point where'd I'd actually welcome some "stagnation." Not saying everyone else should feel that way. But I know I'm not the only one who is tired of all the RSEs and longs for novels that deal with more personal tales.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 08:33 PM	That's kind of how I feel. On one hand, I do like the novels, and I expect some changes to occur. Heck, sometimes I even enjoy those changes! On the other hand, I feel "burnt out" by the sheer pace and number of "RSEs" in the recent novels, to the point where'd I'd actually welcome some "stagnation." Not saying everyone else should feel that way. But I know I'm not the only one who is tired of all the RSEs and longs for novels that deal with more personal tales. So Swords and Sorcery instead of High Fanatsy huh?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 08:53 PM	Indeed. I've always thought of the FR as a Sword and Sorcery setting.
Imruphel 01-27-08, 08:51 AM	-Not really. Eberron is a snapsnot of a specific time period. People aren't actually moving until you begin a campaign. The novels that they have are noncanon, meaning that they don't actually count. The Forgotten Realms is a living, breathing world. Things change, yada, yada, yada. Novels help portray those changes much faster. Sourcebooks only have so much room, and changes presented in them slow things to a crawl. Wouldn't you consider a swamp, which does have drainage routes and such, albeit extremely slow working routes and such, stagnant? Especially in a large swamp, just like we have a large setting. It is not stagnant if DMs and players are shaping the world. Again, you don't game there; your needs/wants for FR are different to those of us who run games there. -No, it has nothing to do with that. Without novels, you lose a large medium of how the setting grows, changes, synthesizes, metamorphasizes, and so on. In the entire run in 3e, we've gotten 1 book detailing the south (Shining South). Without the possibility of novels mentioning or directly taking place in said places, are we to believe that for 7 years (3-4 game time), absolutely nothing has been going on there? The fact that you don't game in the Forgotten Realms shapes what you are looking for out of FR just as the fact that I run my games there shapes what I need. That's all I am trying to say. -I did specifically say "not trying to single you out specifically", meaning I wasn't responding to your specific post, but the general idea behind it- that idea being, should Ed somehow regain rights to the setting, everything would be happy happy again. My point stands, however. Single me out? Mate, I couldn't care less if you did. As far as I am concerned we're just exchanging opinions. Sure, your point stands... but read the rest of mine. - Using dashes like this is a really bizarre affectation. I've been meaning to ask, why do you do it?
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 11:03 AM	It is not stagnant if DMs and players are shaping the world. Again, you don't game there; your needs/wants for FR are different to those of us who run games there. -What a player/DM does in his/her own campaign is his/her own business. Unless it's the RGPA, it doesn't shape/move/alter the official Realms. Single me out? Mate, I couldn't care less if you did. As far as I am concerned we're just exchanging opinions. Sure, your point stands... but read the rest of mine. -Some people get defensive. - Using dashes like this is a really bizarre affectation. I've been meaning to ask, why do you do it? -Can't start these paragraphs with indentations, so I substitute a dash.
XHereticX 01-27-08, 11:05 AM	-Can't start these paragraphs with indentations, so I substitute a dash. Ever a stickler for proper grammar are you not?;)
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 11:14 AM	Ever a stickler for proper grammar are you not?;) -Yep, I's be.
XHereticX 01-27-08, 11:19 AM	-Yep, I's be. "Phat Lewt Mon!!!"
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 02-26-08, 02:25 AM	Shameless :bump: I decided to bring this one now that we all have time to digested the changes: ANyone still thinks that The Realms will die?
Alediran 02-26-08, 07:42 AM	Yes, or it will become an Undead creature, but they'll never be the same.
GothicDan 02-26-08, 08:13 AM	Newsflash. Bad things should go away. Stop being a zealot and think for yourself, and make your own decisions on what should be. Jebus Creebus, people. I really can't believe people are getting blamed for the death of something artistic, when it does not appeal to them. I SURE WISH RAP WOULD DIE. WHY SHOULD I PRESERVE IT? FR is a zombie at this point. It should be put out of its misery. 5th Age Dragonlance? Good riddance. Kara-Tur, Maztica? Good riddance. Planescape? They killed you in your prime, but at least they didn't make you undergo any obtuse vicissitudes, and then try to put you on strings as some grotesque puppet. I'm really, stupendously incredulous at this fact. It is bad. It should go away. Period. Capitalism and democracy go hand in hand.
msatran 02-26-08, 01:53 PM	Wow! Rino hits hard!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 12:16 PM	Wow! Rino hits hard! I do.;) But, that post above was all Dan.;) And yes, hooray for Capitalism! Is 4E Realms truly going to be great? We'll let the market decide!
GothicDan 02-27-08, 01:10 PM	But Rino hits hard, too.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 01:12 PM	But Rino hits hard, too. Thanks.;)
Khaelieth 02-27-08, 06:12 PM	But Rino hits hard, too. And you like it;)
GothicDan 02-27-08, 06:30 PM	BOW CHICKA BOW WOW!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 08:03 PM	And you like it;) Yes!
Chance87 02-28-08, 11:24 PM	But it will probably never reach the popularity it did in its heyday. And if it could happen to them... :rolleyes: Not if...when. Given the truism that all things at some point wither and die, at some point in the future, WotC, or Hasbro, or whatever company holds the rights to FR will cancel production due to fiscal concerns and/or lack of interest by consumers. The dice being thrown by the designers right now may well result in the second scenario...they've said almost as much. The changes to the 4E FR could well be the very thing that makes a lot of us die-hard, buy-it-as-long-as-it-says-FR fans sit up and say, "Meh, think I'll save my money and buy (insert object here), instead". When the game products become very un-lucrative for the IP owner, how long before the novel sales which helps float our little boat dry up? :bigeyes: Feeling cynical, skeptical, and sarcastic today :bigeyes:
vhurka 03-22-08, 05:53 PM	DAMNATION UPON ALL OF YOU FOR PROPHESYING DOOM FOR FR. Now you got me all depressed! I'm gonna type cartoon swears now. "%$(!! (*((\^P$$!!! Man it doesn't work. I'm gonna go hold my best friends little sister hostage. (under breath) rotten doomsayers, grumble mumble...
Lord Karsus 03-22-08, 07:52 PM	:confused: -Riiiiihht...
Rauric 03-22-08, 10:39 PM	Shameless :bump: I decided to bring this one now that we all have time to digested the changes: ANyone still thinks that The Realms will die? I think it has till 2009 to grab new/old consumers. 2009 is when the new Eberron book comes out. Many/some (?) FR fans went on to that setting to either take a break from the Realms or because the NPC/gods/same old same old was reallying getting to them. If people stick with FR after that event then they may be ok. I am sure fans of FR went onto other settings as well, I am basing some of this opinion on what happened in my LGS. Not really concrete proof of anything. Plus just because there is a very obvious dislike for the new FR on these and other forums that doesn't factor in all the fans who may like it but don't feel the need to speak out on the subject. They probably look around the boards and say "Wow, these people need lives." People who have a dislike for something like to hang out on forums and commiserate about the thing they loathe. It is the netty thing to do.
MarkusTay63 03-22-08, 11:16 PM	I have a feeling they will do some sort of media-blitz (which they will probably F-up as well), perhaps even with comercials (featuring those enoying cartoons). Remember when they (Hasbro) started pushing Heroscape? They had cartoon-soldiers fighting a war, and then a cut-scene to kids playing the game. thats what I foresee come Aug., and they will probably keep it up right until christmas, trying to get the new Miniatures game to be the next 'must have' toy for the Holidays. After the initial push, this thing either soars or sinks, and I'm getting ready to bail water. ;) Man it doesn't work. I'm gonna go hold my best friends little sister hostage. (under breath) rotten doomsayers, grumble mumble...Are you sure this isn't an excuse just to grab your friend's little sister? :confused: ;) :P
Lord Karsus 03-23-08, 12:03 AM	I have a feeling they will do some sort of media-blitz... -This has already begun. Even before 4e was announced, I began seeing adds for Dungeons and Dragons in comic books, and in Wizard magazine. I was wondering why there were adds suddenly appearing, and when 4e was announced shortly thereafter, it made more sense. Are you sure this isn't an excuse just to grab your friend's little sister? :confused: ;) :P -A Michael Jackson song exists that have the following opening lyrics: "Your butt is mine". And, no, I do not kid (pun not intended).
MarkusTay63 03-23-08, 09:13 AM	Well, if the 'kid' sister is at least 17 and extremely cute, I could see 'borrowing' her for a time. Anything less would be just kinda weird. :uh-huh: Why did Michael Jackson go shpping at Walmart? Because he heard boy's pants were ½ off. :D
Lord Karsus 03-23-08, 11:31 AM	Why did Michael Jackson go shpping at Walmart? Because he heard boy's pants were ½ off. :D :rimshot:
Daenaan 03-23-08, 12:38 PM	...Plus just because there is a very obvious dislike for the new FR on these and other forums that doesn't factor in all the fans who may like it but don't feel the need to speak out on the subject. They probably look around the boards and say "Wow, these people need lives." People who have a dislike for something like to hang out on forums and commiserate about the thing they loathe. It is the netty thing to do. Although there are only around 5-8 "regular" posters here (and by that, I mean those who tend to post in every thread, on nearly every board), and they constantly flood the board with personal irrelevancies, I get the impression that the much larger consensus from most other boards on the "new FR" is rather negative.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 12:12 PM	I also noticed that a lot of regular posters like to imagine that they aren't regular posters, even though the fact that they know who the "regulars" even are indicates that they are in fact members of the same group.
Stigger 03-25-08, 02:39 AM	I'm not a regular poster... a very irregular poster lately really, much to my chagrin. :(
clawsx1 08-22-08, 11:02 AM	[QUOTE=I'm gonna go hold my best friends little sister hostage.QUOTE]34
clawsx1 08-22-08, 11:07 AM	Man it doesn't work. I'm gonna go hold my best friends little sister hostage. PLease restrict your jokes to more tasteful subjects in the future.
MarkusTay63 08-22-08, 11:54 AM	This IS the future - you're responding to a post nearly SIX MONTHS old! Glad you're not a cop - the girl would be coyote food by now. :rolleyes:
kbreynolds 08-22-08, 12:18 PM	Now the same people that cryed over 3rd edition, 3,4 etc are crying about 4th (sorry$th) edition, effectivly killing the realms I love. It's like a pet you feed it it lives, you don't it dies. I liked 2e FR products, I loved 3e FR products, I dislike 4e FR products. I don't fit the mold in your arugment, and not everyone will. I don't want FR products to die. I want the current style of 4e FR products to die. They have little content, little originality, big text and bloated page counts, and that is quite simply shameful. Bad Wizards. No soup for you.
clawsx1 08-22-08, 01:07 PM	This IS the future - you're responding to a post nearly SIX MONTHS old! Glad you're not a cop - the girl would be coyote food by now. :rolleyes: Yeah, but he's refering to my sister.
MarkusTay63 08-22-08, 02:30 PM	Oh... sorry. then that was kinda weird...
Mirtek 08-22-08, 02:43 PM	Edit: Nevermind, I didn't see how old the initial post is
Lord Karsus 08-22-08, 02:55 PM	Edit: Nevermind, I didn't see how old the initial post is -Might as well chime in anyway, being as that the thread has already been brought back.
MarkusTay63 08-22-08, 02:59 PM	But people are all arguiing with posters that haven't beem around in months. :D Not that that stops us from bellyaching in every, single thread we can. :P
Harn_Winterfell 08-22-08, 03:13 PM	Some where...some how...some place...a gnome will be blamed.
sfdragon 08-22-08, 03:20 PM	Some where...some how...some place...a gnome will be blamed. nah, that gnome was impaled 2 months ago by an orc
DrowVampyre 08-23-08, 08:04 AM	Some where...some how...some place...a gnome will be blamed. Is that why he got kicked out of the PHB?
Lord Karsus 08-23-08, 03:31 PM	Is that why he got kicked out of the PHB? -Being as that's the only explanation we have, it works.
krownhunter07 08-23-08, 07:42 PM	Doesn't it get old gripping in every thread on the FR part of the boards? Isn't there something about that in the coc? But people are all arguiing with posters that haven't beem around in months. :D Not that that stops us from bellyaching in every, single thread we can. :P
Harn_Winterfell 08-23-08, 07:47 PM	Best to retitle this on as "Don't want this thread to die?" Again we can lay all accountablity firmly on the shoulders of "I'm a monster! Rarrrr!"