Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HVulpes 02-26-08, 07:49 PM	I had read the most recent Dragon article about the idea of Zeitgeist, and was wondering what everyone else thought of it? I found it interesting and I had some thoughts about the effect of what would happen if this idea was placed into a realms campaign. Like a campaign where mortal champions of the gods (or collection of gods) were to battle to control the zeitgeist for a time period (perhaps the years before the spellplague or the period after it)? Where the divine champion then creates an age of Bane/Tyranny (or whatever deity you choose)? Comments? Link (you need to sign in to view it) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080225a
selunatic2397 02-26-08, 08:27 PM	It was an interesting read, but it doesn't really fit into my campaign's flavor or history. :lop:
18DELTA 02-26-08, 08:38 PM	-Like this. Some scholars, trying to make sense of the disparate deeds of countless millions, claim that each historical era has its own particular theme influencing every soul born into it. According to them, this zeitgeist, literally the "spirit" (geist) of the "time" (zeit), acts as destiny's guillotine, pitilessly choosing winners and losers based upon how closely they adhere to the demands of the age. They believe that when the zeitgeist beats the drums of war, armies march into an apocalypse of blood and terror. On the other hand, they also hold that if the zeitgeist challenges mankind to push against the borders of the unknown, explorers sail beyond the horizon in search of new lands even as scientists retreat to their laboratories, plumbing the mysteries of the universe like never before. In their darkest moments, they even fear that when the zeitgeist demands ignorance and fanaticism, the Inquisition stalks the night, thirsting for unbelievers and infidels to put to torment beyond imagination. Of course, in our world, one of science and reason, most simply treat the zeitgeist as a convenient fiction. However, in a world of magic, where powerful alien gods suddenly rise to ascendancy, or the stars themselves sometimes form new constellations in a single night, the zeitgeist, birthing ages of legend or horror, could prove very real indeed. This article gives DMs the tools to apply the zeitgeist, and the ages it create, to a campaign world. It begins with a discussion of threshold eras, the times between ages when the future hangs in doubt, giving mortals the chance to affect the destinies of future generations. From there, it offers up a number of different scenarios to resolve a threshold era, giving DMs the option of setting an adventure, or entire campaign, during one of these moments of great upheaval. It then explores ways in which the zeitgeist could shape events, and the actions of NPCs, by considering, in a broad sense, how campaigns set during a particular age might unfold. Threshold Eras Physicists tell us that the universe rests upon an uneasy foundation of a handful of mighty forces locked in constant struggle. When the equilibrium between these forces shifts, upsetting the balance of power, cataclysm follows, whether in a localized region of space or the entire cosmos, until order reestablishes itself. If the zeitgeist actually does exist, it might function in a similar way except that instead of a struggle between such impersonal forces as gravity and nuclear bonds, it attempts to regulate the conflict between concepts such as war, decay, and chaos. Acting as a pressure release, the zeitgeist periodically gives one of these timeless ideals a chance to temporarily seize pre-eminence, establishing a new equilibrium, without a cataclysm, by creating threshold eras. As their name suggests, threshold eras stand between the ages -- they are times when the cosmos pauses to draw a breath, and they wait for a new zeitgeist to emerge and give shape to the age yet to come. The exact length of each threshold era varies. Some could last for decades, others for mere moments; however, they matter only if mortals have some way to influence their outcome. If the universe simply cycles through the ages, immutable, each one merely a single tick of a celestial clock, threshold eras serve no purpose. In the game, threshold eras give the PCs, and powerful NPCs, a chance to shape the future by determining the scope and exact nature of the next age. This struggle to mold the coming age, creating a time of war or peace, freedom or slavery, could easily serve as the focus for an entire campaign, spawning numerous adventures and plot threads (see "Resolving Threshold Eras" below). The zeitgeist requires one or more sentient beings to give it focus, serving, in a sense, as the "midwife" for the age to come, determining both its nature and underlying elements. Since the zeitgeist has no soul and no consciousness, it does not question the character of those who obtain this extraordinary influence over it, embracing the most diabolical schemer as easily as a living saint. Instead, it simply waits for a champion of a particular cause or ideal to rise to prominence by overcoming all possible rivals whether through war, intrigue, or acquired prestige. Once this champion emerges, the zeitgeist uses his or her personality as the model for the coming age. For instance, a cruel miser who built up a financial empire might unleash an age of appalling greed if the zeitgeist identified him as the champion. Even a poet, celebrating the simple pastoral splendor of forest and field, could, if she attracted enough followers to her worldview, trigger an age where nature stands triumphant, drowning cities and empires beneath a tide of trees. While it is perhaps a somewhat odd experience getting drafted by the zeitgeist to serve as the model for a new age, it deals no lasting harm. Since, by definition, the champion the zeitgeist selects must enjoy great influence and power over the world, he or she could remain on the scene for a considerable amount of time afterward. In some cases, the champion may even live until the end of the age and the start of the next threshold era. Resolving Threshold Eras The key question when dealing with a threshold era is exactly how people affect the zeitgeist and the age to come. As mentioned above, sometimes the zeitgeist might simply pick the most influential person of the day, letting the ambitious clash until one stands supreme; but that is just one possibility. Fantasy writers, long intrigued by the potential of the zeitgeist and the ages it creates, have come up with many other options. A few of the more popular approaches, along with some examples, appear below. The Adversary The zeitgeist offers itself to the one who defeats a particularly powerful, and hostile, figure. Typically these sorts of adversaries take on the character of "Dark Lords," sinister entities bent upon remaking the universe into a place of endless horror and misery. Personifications of the peril the zeitgeist exists to prevent, adversaries rarely simply sit around waiting for someone to attack them. They usually go on the offensive by rallying armies to their banners and working dark magic to cast down potential foes, which inevitably drags them into conflict with everyone else and sets the stage for the zeitgeist to discover its champion. One interesting variation of this approach involves casting the adversary as the person who heralded the preceding age, the zeitgeist's former champion, who refuses to yield at the start of a new threshold era. This presents the DM with many more interesting motivations for the adversary than pure malevolence. However, this approach also usually requires some sort of catastrophe to occur should the adversary win out (particularly if he or she hopes to continue a generally positive era). Alternatively, the adversary might resolve to defend an age that has pushed the world too far in one direction, which then requires a fresh start with a new dominant zeitgeist to rebalance things (for instance, an age of technology that has greatly harmed the environment). Blind to the risks of maintaining the status quo, no matter how wondrous, or perhaps simply taking the excesses of a previous age to a dangerous extreme, these adversaries make for much more realistic, and formidable, opponents. Examples of Adversaries: Lord Foul from The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant series by Stephen R. Donaldson, the Dark One from The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan, and the Crimson King from the Dark Tower series by Steven King. Avatars Periodically the gods, or similar beings who represent particular philosophies and worldviews, take on mortal form -- beginning a new threshold era -- entering the world as infants and only slowly learning their powers and true nature as they reach adulthood. Usually, despite their temporary absence from their seats of power, divine magic continues to flow to mortals, allowing clerics and the like to cast spells even as the gods lie squalling in a cradle. Eventually these avatars, each representing one of the possible ages to come, gather followers and resources, the first steps in total war. The avatar who wins this great struggle, defeating his or her peers, determines the next age. This approach offers DMs several interesting variations, including the option of keeping the true identities of these avatars a secret from the PCs and perhaps at first doing so with the avatars themselves. A mighty paladin and general, an ally of the PCs, might actually be the avatar of war, putting a very different spin on his quest to purge evil from the world. If the PCs help their friend build up his army, they could inadvertently lay the groundwork for an age of war to follow. Similarly, a sanctimonious cleric with political ambitions, who regards the PCs as dangerous louts, might actually be the avatar of good despite his own personal failings. This could put the PCs in an awkward position, requiring them to help someone they loathe seize power. Examples of Avatars: The Troy Game series by Sara Douglass, the Lords of Dūs series by Lawrence Watt-Evans, and the Winter of the World series by Michael Scott Rohan. The Great Trial The zeitgeist responds to a particular ritual or test as the threshold era ebbs, using the first person or group to succeed as the model upon which to base the next age. Often this test requires considerable preparation, laying the groundwork for a number of preliminary adventures as the candidates gather the proper ingredients, suffer the mandated trials, or obtain other necessary components. The courage and determination needed to succeed guarantees that only the truly driven even attempt it, throwing the PCs into conflict with the craftiest, most ruthless NPCs in the campaign. One interesting variation on this approach involves creating some sort of massive testing area, a "super dungeon" that only those chosen by the zeitgeist may safely enter and explore. Monsters and NPCs, lured by the zeitgeist like moths to a flame, separate the wheat from the chaff, eliminating the teams who actually prepared themselves to shape the zeitgeist before entering it. Since, in the end, only one of these teams can enter the secret chamber buried deep within the dungeon and pass the final, lethal test, competition amongst the teams themselves could prove just as deadly. Examples of Great Trials: Stormbringer (and related Eternal Champion stories) by Michael Moorcock, the Sandman sequence of comic books by Neil Gaiman, and Sir Galahad's quest for the Holy Grail. Prophecy The zeitgeist reveals itself, and its secrets, to a handful of mortals who, in an all but hopeless attempt to make sense of its endless complexity, use metaphor and symbolism to convey the truths they learned. Those seeking to seize control of the zeitgeist must interpret the advice offered by these people, long dead or perhaps utterly insane, and use it to guide their actions. While very popular in fantasy fiction, where the author enjoys complete control, DMs must take care when using this approach so that they never leave their players feeling railroaded. Prophecies should also contain enough ambiguity to spark a party's imagination as they work out their own interpretations. One interesting variation of this approach involves creating several different prophecies, perhaps one for each of the possible ages to come and treating them, in a sense, as recipes or formulas. This gives each faction, and each powerful individual, the luxury of choosing which prophecy to promote and which to thwart. The threshold era becomes a Darwinian struggle between competing ideals, with partisans trying to manufacture the omens needed to make the prophecy they support come about while sabotaging those of their rivals. Examples of Prophecy: The Prophecies of Valon from the Babylon 5 television series, the Belgariad series by David Eddings, and the Karethon cycle from the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. Treasure Hunt As the threshold era draws to an end, the zeitgeist coalesces around one or more powerful talismans, using the personalities of those who control (or in some cases destroy) these items as the model for the next age. If their temperaments conflict, the age to come suffers from these flaws as well, mixing various qualities in a chaotic jumble. For instance, a teacher, driven to guide people toward enlightenment, and a warrior, driven to crush his enemies, together might create an age of repression, where those who disagree with the "truth" endure torment and persecution. The more of these items a person holds, the greater his or her impact on the next age, laying the groundwork for a deadly scavenger hunt amongst the campaign's most powerful factions. This approach works particularly well when the items also possess other, lesser properties, allowing the DM to slip one into a monster hoard as a piece of magic treasure. When the PCs find their item, it immediately plunges them into the middle of secret war, with thieves and assassins dogging their footsteps. Over time, as they grow in levels and power, building up their own networks of allies, they could advance from mere pawns to movers and shakers themselves, eventually putting their own spin on the next age. Examples of Treasure Hunts: The Lord of the Rings series by J.R.R. Tolkien, the Dark is Rising series by Susan Cooper, and the Book of Lost Swords series by Fred Saberhagen. Bridge Campaigns While threshold eras, by definition, serve as the defining crisis of their day, and resolving one usually acts as a natural climax for a campaign, some DMs (not to mention players) might like to see what happens next. Bridge campaigns, beginning during a threshold era and then moving into the age that follows, allow just that. When planning a bridge campaign, DMs must take extra care in resolving the threshold era since events continue afterward. This means, among other things, that the DM should pay close attention to the rewards (magic items, special abilities, favors/contacts with powerful NPCs, improved social status, and so on) the PCs gain from their involvement in resolving the threshold era. Similarly, the DM should make sure to leave plenty of room for character advancement during the age that follows. One simple way to do this involves planning to end the campaign when the PCs reach a certain level and then begin the process of resolving the threshold era once the PCs pass the half-way mark and then concluding before the two-third mark. For instance, in a bridge campaign intended to last until 20th level, resolving the threshold era should span levels 10, 11, and 12 with the remainder of the campaign set during the era that follows. Using Ages to Shape your Campaign Threshold eras serve as crossroads -- as moments in history where mortals may seize the power to shape the future for countless generations to come. However, despite their importance, they appear very rarely -- most of the time the cosmos follows the path laid out for it by the zeitgeist. This offers DMs a very powerful tool for world building and also presents a built-in rationale for any home rules they want to include in their campaigns. For instance, a campaign in a bleak, frozen wasteland seems an odd place for flamestrike spells, not to mention fire elementals. Setting it during an age where fire magic is on the rise goes a long way toward fixing this problem. Similarly, an age of territorial conquest followed by an age of decay and isolationism offers up an excellent rationale for an abundance of dungeons and ruins scattered across the landscape. Each age has its own particular theme that overrides and influences everything else. Only the most heroic, or villainous, of souls possess the fortitude to resist the influence the zeitgeist casts upon an age and often even those who manage this feat find themselves punished for it. In an age of war, those who rely upon peace treaties are the first to fall when their resurgent neighbors roar across the border. During an age of exploration, those who shun risk miss out on countless opportunities, and they earn the scorn of society for their timidity. In an age of repression, those who preach tolerance soon fall beneath the Inquisitions' iron boot and find themselves cast into its cleansing flames. Sample Ages Destiny paints a portrait for each age that draws upon the entire spectrum of mortal experience, dabbing a sullen, angry red as easily as a vibrant, expansive green, or a calm, placid blue. However, the zeitgeist chooses one of these colors to overlay everything else in each age, creating a paramount stain that bleeds into each nook and cranny of the cosmos. This theme, usually encapsulated with a single word like war or decay, touches every heart and sways debate in the councils of the mighty as easily as it stirs passions in the meanest hovel. DMs looking to set a campaign during a particular age should use the notes below as inspiration. Age of Blood In an age of blood, personal connections and personal feuds take precedence over all other concerns. Family and kinship ties exert a much stronger pull than the bonds of a nation or any other social organization. Though larger communities, or even countries, still exist, they seem more like loose federations of allied clans than a unified citizenry. These clans exist almost as independent states, huddling together in strongholds or urban enclaves, patrolled by their own private armies and ruled by elders revered for the wily cunning required to reach old age during such cutthroat times. The age leaves people believing they share an almost mystical connection with their relatives that causes them to rise or fall along with their relatives. This makes both nepotism and savage blood feuds commonplace, along with a very prickly sensitivity to shame and humiliation since it, in a very real sense, diminishes everyone a person truly cares about. Perhaps because of this extra vitality, vampires tend to flourish during an age of blood, often serving as champions for their families, who weaken rival clans by stealing their vital essence. Age of Chaos In an age of chaos, uncertainty reigns triumphant while the majesty of the law and organization withers. Few genuine governments, with all their trappings of civil servants, codes of law, and the like, actually exist; most people simply live under the thumb of their most powerful, or ruthless, neighbor. Often, the dominant social organization resembles that of a street gang with their leaders, those most practiced at the savage, Darwinian struggle for dominance demanded of the age, holding court amidst the ruins of a dying civilization. The age encourages selfishness and a bleak nihilism, rewarding betrayal and deceit while punishing those with a sense of integrity and justice. Odd phenomena, both magical and natural, seem almost commonplace, with strange weather, bizarre mutations, and mystical catastrophes happening virtually every day. The ranks of aberrations and other twisted freaks swell, but many creatures dependent upon the steady flow of magic for their existence, particularly constructs, find the fluctuations of the age nearly intolerable. In an age of chaos, success often seems to come through fluke rather than hard work, discouraging people from planning, or building, for the future. Age of Decay In the age of decay, corruption and apathy devours both institutions and people from within, leaving nothing but hollow shells that collapse under the slightest pressure. Much of the land seems dominated by great empires, with powerful bureaucracies and miles of red tape to entangle the hapless citizenry; however corruption, inefficiency, and nearly constant maneuvering for position leaves these empires all but paralyzed. From the highest to the lowest, a pervading sense of entitlement and self-interest rules, smothering ideals such as duty and honor. It causes generals to throw away armies in schemes calculated to discredit rivals even if it leaves the empire they serve fatally vulnerable as easily as it drives farmers to plant luxury crops in times of famine. The age encourages decadence, with the surrender to unspeakable vices rendering members of every social strata enfeebled and dissipated. This moral decay seeps into every other facet of life, leaving crumbling buildings, the decline of scholarship, and even a weakening of the flesh that leads to the spread of innumerable plagues (including lycanthropy) in its wake. Even nature dwindles away before the creeping malaise of the age; trees, smothered by mold and mildew, collapse in merely brisk winds, while animals whelp litters with far too many runts. The pervading sense of failure and gloom leaves many feeling strangely cheated, giving rise to a cultural fascination with death and the next life, causing them to lavish extraordinary amounts of time and energy on their funerals and their tombs. This preoccupation with death leads to a dramatic rise in the frequency and raw power of the undead who call the age home. Age of Heroes In the age of heroes, the deeds of the few determine the fates of the many, whether for good or ill. The success or failure of every great cause ultimately depends upon the tiny handful serving as its champions, rendering even entire legions, in a sense, merely spectators to the drama. Most people live in city-states large enough to support armies, temples, and all the other trappings of civilization, but they are still small enough to make the reign of a single, legendary, ruler possible. Above all else, it is an age of strong passions rather than statecraft, where thousands die due to the personal feuds and petty squabbles of a few champions. The age pushes most into a subordinate role, leaving them content to serve merely as spear-carriers and sidekicks, cheerfully assisting the heroes of the age as they carve their names in the history books. Even the magically gifted often act as advisors and foils, their power to directly harm an opponent greatly reduced, forcing them to ensnare minds or alter forms rather than to rain fiery destruction upon a foe. However, the heroes themselves seldom find much time to enjoy their status -- in addition to the constant maneuvering for position amongst their own kind they must also grapple with a seemingly endless supply of monstrous foes. Emerging from vast swathes of untamed wilderness, places where civilization fears to tread, these deadly creatures prey upon the hapless peasants and townsfolk who depend upon the heroes to protect them. Age of Light In the age of light, darkness, whether in the mortal heart or simply in the night sky, pales and grows noticeably weaker. A spirit of altruism, only partially explained by the abundance of food sparked by prolonged growing seasons, pervades the land, leaving people with the opportunity and need to help those less fortunate than themselves. Most people find little need for governments, preferring to solve their problems through compromise and negotiation, trusting in good will rather than appealing to some remote authority. Some organized groups still exist, particularly the temples of good deities, universities, and craft guilds, and during those rare moments of crisis they step in to provide the leadership normally offered by governments in less enlightened ages. Most people lead simple, quiet lives, taking joy in their work, their friends, and their families, and they give little thought to great causes and spend little time jealously brooding upon the good fortune of others. The age encourages gentle, moderate climates, with winters both brief and mild, and plentiful rain to ensure bountiful crops. At times the sun seems almost reluctant to cede the sky, often creating warm, languid sunsets that stretch on for hours. These prolonged days, coupled with the generous spirits of most of those who call the age home, leave little room for evil or malice. Few creatures wedded to the darkness, particularly fiends and those who traffic with them, exist, causing some to consider them merely the fodder of stories. Age of Nature In the age of nature, the wilderness all but buries the trappings of civilization. Few, if any, settled communities exist -- even individual farms are oddities since most people live as hunter/gatherers wandering the world in search of food. Sometimes members of one of these bands come upon the crumbling ruins of once mighty cities, and, as they pause for a day or two, their elders tell stories of how one day their ancestors simply walked away. Each elder offers up his or her own explanation for why the settled races suddenly turned their backs upon civilization; famine, war, a spiritual awakening. What matters is that most people consider life in settled communities almost like a prison. The age rewards those able to live in harmony with nature, ensuring them plentiful supplies of fish and game while blessing them with keen senses to find edible plants and fresh water. Most people need only spend ten or twenty hours a week in pursuit of the necessities of life, giving them plenty of time to follow their passions and to hone their innate gifts. The age is far from idyllic however; like nature itself, savagery always lurks just beneath the surface, sometimes erupting into ferocious conflicts as hunters from rival bands stalk each other in deadly games of cat and mouse. While few of those born into the age master the arts of civilization, particularly writing or metalsmithing, both arcane and divine magic still exists, albeit in a somewhat more primitive state. However, "unnatural" creatures, especially undead, constructs, and aberrations, find it quite difficult to thrive in the age of nature, but most other creatures soon discover their place in the duet between predator and prey. Age of Tyranny In an age of tyranny, authority recognizes few, if any, restraints upon its whims, whether within a family, faith, or nation as a whole. Every person goes through life with an almost instinctive understanding of where he or she fits within the overall hierarchy and a burning need to advance by any means, whether fair or foul. The age promotes the spread of great empires led by absolute rulers propped up by merciless enforcers. Those who violate the orthodoxy of society soon find themselves brutally kicked back in line. The age rewards those who conform and punishes those who rebel. In each area of life there is a single acceptable way of doing things: one church, one government, one economic system, with savage reprisals for those who refuse to toe the line. Creatures with an instinctive ability to cooperate and submit to authority tend to prosper far more than those with an individualist streak. Demons, slaadi, and other creatures wedded to chaos all but fade away during an age of tyranny. Age of War In an age of war, violence, particularly organized violence, seems the natural way to settle disputes. Most people feel an almost overwhelming desire to live near their own "kind," a kinship, whether based upon criteria such as race, alignment, religion, national identity, or something else, that strongly colors their opinions of every other group. This distrust, at times even hatred, for those who are different causes them to live in a state of almost constant fear. The rampant xenophobia of the age drives most people to live within guarded and walled communities, and they usually leave them only to raid their neighbors, all the while hoping for safety that is brought about by killing their neighbors or at least driving them far, far away. People born into the age tend to feel a strong loyalty toward members of their own group while at the same time loathing outsiders. In most places, hybrids, whether half-orcs or half-celestials, experience tremendous hardships -- usually only those who prove their absolute devotion to the group that raised them survive to adulthood. However, since above all else the age worships the practice of arms, those who master weaponry soon find their place, as do those who learn to serve the age by channeling magic to destroy their enemies. About the Author Hal Maclean has seen several of his articles get published in Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. Watch for his work in GM Gems: A Tome of Inspiration for Fantasy Game Masters from Goodman Games. 18DELTA:)
MarkusTay63 02-26-08, 08:42 PM	What the hell was that about? I didn't comment about the article because I couldn't really make it past the first couple of sentences - I find the subject matter extremely boring and of very little use. Then you post it, and I have to look at it again. :uh-huh:
18DELTA 02-26-08, 08:45 PM	-Then it was worth the 15 seconds of effort.:P 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 11:06 PM	What the hell was that about? ...I find the subject matter extremely boring and of very little use. -Agreed, on both points.
Dark Wizard 02-27-08, 12:08 AM	Is that the new filler material for 4E in place of useless feats and poorly designed PrCs?
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 12:12 AM	I love it and thinks its tremendously useful. It's definitely canon in my Realms for the Post-Spell Plague.
Dark Wizard 02-27-08, 01:25 AM	I think it's a good Dragon article. I miss having actual issues of Dragon. I completely forget about the issues made from the the compiled articles, they just don't register to me. It seems like a good tool for DMs to design their worlds and games. Not sure how much use it can be for the Realms. What is the age of the Spellplague?
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 01:36 AM	The Post-Spell Plague is a Threshold Era. * The Spell Plague is an Age of Chaos that's unleashed by Cyric and his servants with the aid of Shar. * The Post Myth Drannor era is an Age of Heroes * Netheril's Heyday was an Age of Decay Etc etc
MarkusTay63 02-27-08, 02:14 AM	So its an article that basically tells us the plot of every single fantasy and Sci-Fi story written in the last hundred years. Yay. :bored: I've read all the books - I don't need some itsy, bitsy article to explain to me what 'ages' are about. Read Wheel of Time, or Tolkien, or even Dragonlance... It's really old news, and not very useful to DMs, unless they've never read anything other then a D&D sourcebook. Come to think of it, that pretty much describes their target audience for 4e. :rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 02:20 AM	I've read all the books - I don't need some itsy, bitsy article to explain to me what 'ages' are about. Read Wheel of Time, or Tolkien, or even Dragonlance... You find this less useful than "NEW FEATS FOR FIGHTERS!" "Get a +1 to an Attribute!" ? :P
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 02:23 AM	You find this less useful than "NEW FEATS FOR FIGHTERS!" "Get a +1 to an Attribute!" -I do, actually. They're concepts to help a DM make up a setting. I don't need any of that help. Thus, it's not very helpful to me, whereas "NEW FEATS FOR FIGHTERS!" might.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 02:55 AM	-I do, actually. They're concepts to help a DM make up a setting. I don't need any of that help. Thus, it's not very helpful to me, whereas "NEW FEATS FOR FIGHTERS!" might. I'm the opposite, I don't need any crunch. I need fluff and helping develop plots along with how to expand on a setting. I'm already incorporating Zetigeist information and I've been a DM for 15 years at this point (since I was twelve and really bad at it)
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 03:20 AM	I need fluff and helping develop plots along with how to expand on a setting. I'm already incorporating Zetigeist information and I've been a DM for 15 years at this point (since I was twelve and really bad at it) -I've been a DM on and off since I was like 15 or so- most of those campaigns lasting only a session or three, for a variety of factors, and have only been DMing my current, steady campaign for about a year and a few months, now. But, that's all besides the point. I don't need a generic article to tell me how things should/should not be in my own setting. If I didn't have a setting, or was still in the process of world-building, on the scale that this article entails, then I'd find it more useful. But, I'm past that point.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 03:29 AM	If I didn't have a setting, or was still in the process of world-building, on the scale that this article entails, then I'd find it more useful. But, I'm past that point. I know and I'm the opposite. I prefer long and sloping arcs. ;-) I think there's room for us both.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 04:32 AM	I think there's room for us both. -I don't think so... :: Pushes CP off of the thread ::
Khaelieth 02-27-08, 09:08 AM	-I've been a DM on and off since I was like 15 or so- most of those campaigns lasting only a session or three, for a variety of factors, and have only been DMing my current, steady campaign for about a year and a few months, now. But, that's all besides the point. I don't need a generic article to tell me how things should/should not be in my own setting. If I didn't have a setting, or was still in the process of world-building, on the scale that this article entails, then I'd find it more useful. But, I'm past that point. You can always find inspiration in articles. Heroes of Horror wasn't that great for crunch, but really inspired me to run a Ravenloft/Faerūn campaign. Cutlery Swarms -are- dangerous, nevermind vampires!
18DELTA 02-27-08, 11:12 AM	-Agreed, on both points. -Totally worth the 15 seconds of effort.:P -I thought some of the article was interesting.:) 18DELTA;)
Jiggawha 02-27-08, 12:04 PM	not useful at first I thought this is about conspiracies in the Realms
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 12:07 PM	You can always find inspiration in articles. -I'm not going to be causing any major cataclysms to alter the composition of my world. It is what it is, and I guess the majority of it would fit in the 'Age of Heroes', although, of course, this varies from region to region, continent to continent. Because this is the 'age' my setting seems to fit in, what use do I have for the other 'ages', which, if implemented, would grossly alter the majority of the world, which is something I am not intending? -I'm not saying it's a bad article, but for a person not world-building, time-traveling, or something to that effect, it's not very useful.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 12:55 PM	-I'm not going to be causing any major cataclysms to alter the composition of my world. It is what it is, and I guess the majority of it would fit in the 'Age of Heroes', although, of course, this varies from region to region, continent to continent. Because this is the 'age' my setting seems to fit in, what use do I have for the other 'ages', which, if implemented, would grossly alter the majority of the world, which is something I am not intending? Well in my case, it allows the player chracters to bring the world from the Age of Chaos that is the Spell Plague and promises that after their efforts, they will be lauded as heroes bringing a better world. Also, it adds false urgency. You don't HAVE to make Lord So and So change the world. He just is GOING to change the world if you don't kill him.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 01:11 PM	So its an article that basically tells us the plot of every single fantasy and Sci-Fi story written in the last hundred years. Basically, although I've only skimmed it so far (I'll read it when I have the time). It looked like an interesting article, although I doubt I would use it in my Realms.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 01:15 PM	I think it's useful primarilly for games, like mine where... 1. The PCs are the Big Damn HeroesTM. 2. The entire world's future is often at stake.
Lord Karsus 02-27-08, 02:50 PM	2. The entire world's future is often at stake. -That's the key.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 03:49 PM	2. Yep. By giving "Threshold Eras" you can have the entire world's future at stake without massive armies. You just need your Anti-Christ figure who will change the balance of good vs. evil.
HVulpes 02-27-08, 04:57 PM	My two cents: It is an interesting tool, which can be used in the realms to certain degrees. Yet it might not be for everyone. It can create a massive campaign as the heroes not only have to battle to gain control over the Zeitgeist, but also to choose what element should become the Zeitgeist and to maintain the geist. Remember in the article, the geist can last millenia or it could last moments. The gods would certain be taking sides in such a battle, as they would all like to have all or some of their portfolio used as a base for the geist. (Like Lathander could push for an age of good, yet he could also push for an age of rebirth where new ideas are created or old ideas are rediscovered). So gods might band together, depending on what element they want to bring. Silvanus might join with Mielikki and Talos to create an age of nature, making strange bedfellows indeed. Then there are the power groups in the realms. The Harper might want an age of good, the Moonstars work to an age of balance, while the Zhents work to an age of tyranny. The Cult of the Dragon might want an age of undeath, chaos or even dragons. Then there are the individual characters like Elminster or Fzoul, who could influence the heroes choices for the era. It can make for a major adventure, and the spellplague might make it possible with all of the other changes it made. One could be the introduction of the Zeitgeist to the realms. The heroes become the pivit point for multiple powers and the fate of the world (or you can minimize it to just Faerun with other Zeitgeist in other lands). Just my thoughts. Perhaps I might post some Zeitgeist adventure hooks some time. HVulpes
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 07:52 PM	It can create a massive campaign as the heroes not only have to battle to gain control over the Zeitgeist, but also to choose what element should become the Zeitgeist and to maintain the geist. Remember in the article, the geist can last millenia or it could last moments. Isn't "battling to gain control over the Zeitgeist" a little on the self-aware side, though? I thought the zeitgeist model was mainly for the benefit of the players (and of course, DM), not something that characters in the game would actively think about. A zeitgeist is also--I would think--something more easily analyzed and understood by those who are on the outside of it (and/or have hindsight). I don't think I care for this "self-aware" version of zeitgeists--I'd prefer to see as a way of describing "eras" via hindsight, although I agree with the article when it admits that in the real world, the concept of the zeitgeist is little more than a convenient fiction (or at least, what I might call a "mental shortcut").
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 08:17 PM	Isn't "battling to gain control over the Zeitgeist" a little on the self-aware side, though? I thought the zeitgeist model was mainly for the benefit of the players (and of course, DM), not something that characters in the game would actively think about. A zeitgeist is also--I would think--something more easily analyzed and understood by those who are on the outside of it (and/or have hindsight). Actually, I assumed it was entirely in character. It's an actual Astrological idea.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 08:20 PM	Actually, I assumed it was entirely in character. It's an actual Astrological idea. Well, I guess it just doesn't work for me then.:)
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 08:28 PM	Well, I guess it just doesn't work for me then.:) It doesn't work for me either if it's not literal. ;-) I don't see how "The world is in a state of transition. The Balance could be altered either way to make an Age of Peace or destruction with King Arthur as the key." Is in any way a genre breaker.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 08:36 PM	It doesn't work for me either if it's not literal. ;-) I don't see how "The world is in a state of transition. The Balance could be altered either way to make an Age of Peace or destruction with King Arthur as the key." Is in any way a genre breaker. I don't see it as a "genre breaker" in any absolute sense. As I said, a setting where zeitgeists are something that people actively think about (and actually use the term "zeitgeist"!) just doesn't work for me. If it works for you, that's fine--it's not like I'm trying to convince you to change your mind.
Charles Phipps 02-27-08, 08:37 PM	okay. Just curious what doesn't work.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-27-08, 08:40 PM	okay. Just curious what doesn't work. I did say what doesn't work for me.:) If you want me to go into more detail...maybe I can explain it better tomorrow, when my mind is clearer. It's getting a bit late and my brain is in "unwind" mode.:)
Vulpes 02-27-08, 11:35 PM	No strong opinion on the article content (it was okay), but the art was stunning, IMHO.
Uzzy 02-28-08, 10:44 AM	I liked the article. It's of the quality I expect from Dragon, with nice ideas and art. Shame it's hard to read due to the being online thing. I miss the magazines.
Faraer 02-28-08, 12:12 PM	The Realms does have what could be seen as spirits of the age, but they're diffuse and subtle, not simple and diagrammatic. Compare the way Wizards has of late abused the Roll of Years to refer straightforwardly to (what Rich called) Something Big rather than cryptically with multiple interpretations in different parts of Faerūn; and such novel plots have further taken over from current clack. We don't need more of that totalizing kind of thinking. Rinonalyrna is right about the self-awareness: to be conscious of zeitgeists you need to be in a position outside your own time and beliefs, whereas few in Faerūn think grandiosely of the 'Realms Entire' at all. As well, since in fantasy worlds in-world spirits (of all kinds) are also literary themes, this kind of awareness is an odd kind of literary self-analysis; the Realms has played with this in places like Ed's chapter epigraphs, but it needs a very steady hand.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-28-08, 01:28 PM	As usual, I'm in agreement with everything Faraer has to say on the subject.:)
HVulpes 03-04-08, 10:30 AM	(This is kinda in relation to what Faraer and Rinonalyrna Fathomlin have said of it being a simplification or a person having to be outside their world to be effected by it). What if you narrow the aspect of the Zeitgeist some what as an alterntive? Instead of it being a world altering ability, it is a personal alteration aspect? For example, a character devotes himself to an ideal like good, war or craft? Develops himself to the point of great expertise in the art, worships only gods connected with those ideals as far as they can, and speads the idea of the concept to the people of the land. Till at some point they become a living incarnation of the ideal with powers developed around this idea. Kinda like how the Incarnations from the Piers Anthony "Incarnations of Immortality" can be at times. Or like Proxies, but not limited to one god. For 3ed it would likely be a Prestage Class like a specialty priest or a template like a chosen. For 4ed it might be an epic tier career path. Thoughts?
Charles Phipps 03-04-08, 01:19 PM	Counterpoint, the gods tend to annoit people "outside of Time and Place." Really, you just need to look at Michael Moorcock or even just Goodkind for a Zeitgeist champion. The Eternal Champion or perhaps the Seeker.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-04-08, 08:44 PM	Counterpoint, the gods tend to annoit people "outside of Time and Place." Really, you just need to look at Michael Moorcock or even just Goodkind for a Zeitgeist champion. The Eternal Champion or perhaps the Seeker. That can work, although I wouldn't buy it as much if the hero thought of himself as "affecting the zeitgeist". Again, I think of a zeitgeist as a construction that's made "after the fact", not during. HVulpes, you asked that question on Candlekeep, and I responded there.:)
Charles Phipps 03-04-08, 08:49 PM	True. Still, I think you can more or less explain the Zeitgeist concept as is. It's just Zeitgeist is a silly sounding word.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-04-08, 08:52 PM	True. Still, I think you can more or less explain the Zeitgeist concept as is. It's just Zeitgeist is a silly sounding word. Usually, people don't say things like "I'm trying to affect the current zeitgeist.":) If people want to make "the spirit of the time" into a literal force in their games, though...well, that's their choice to make. If it works for them, the more power to them.
HVulpes 03-04-08, 11:08 PM	That can work, although I wouldn't buy it as much if the hero thought of himself as "affecting the zeitgeist". Again, I think of a zeitgeist as a construction that's made "after the fact", not during. HVulpes, you asked that question on Candlekeep, and I responded there.:) Yes, I just thought I would share here as well as to spread my ideas a far as possible. Just a heads up.
Lord Karsus 03-05-08, 12:07 AM	Usually, people don't say things like "I'm trying to affect the current zeitgeist.":) -They say, "I'm going to take over the world", "Make the world a better place", "Spread the love", and all of those sorts of things. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-05-08, 01:07 PM	-They say, "I'm going to take over the world", "Make the world a better place", "Spread the love", and all of those sorts of things. ;) Yes.:)