Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uzzy 01-11-08, 08:02 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080111a Well well. 1479 DR.
GreenKnight 01-11-08, 08:29 PM	94 years.
Uzzy 01-11-08, 08:33 PM	Yup. So many storylines lost, to appease a minor group of vocal fools who never got the setting and won't buy anything to do with the Realms. Ah well.
MarkusTay63 01-11-08, 08:36 PM	Wow... :( Not that we didn't see it coming.
Mordakay of Thay 01-11-08, 08:38 PM	:| Netheril back?Unther replaced by a dragonborn empire.Imperial Cormyr.Sembia :(.Poor Forgotten Realms.
msatran 01-11-08, 08:38 PM	It's worse than that. This is Mad Max Beyond The Forgotten Realms. This just proves that they really have no idea what they're doing. Richard Baker has proven that he is in a class with Joe Quesada and Dan Didio, exactly as I feared. Mark my words. Forgotten Realms Classic is going to become coveted. I'm pretty certain that now that little green boxed set in my basement is going to be worth thousands now that everything we cared about is gone.
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 08:39 PM	-msa, got a song that mirrors "American Pie"? 'Cause, "The Day the Realms Died" is how I feel right now...Bummer...I'm actually listening to it right now, and it's actually making me sad. -I'll break all this down and analyze it further in a little, bit, when I get over the initial shock.
johnkretzer 01-11-08, 08:40 PM	I am curious do we now have enough infomation yet to start being negative yet? Anybody got anything positive that I am missing?
MazrimTaim 01-11-08, 08:40 PM	wait ... I'm out of the loop. What is D&D Insider and what does it do? Do I need to pay for it? edit: or do I even want to look? (as someone who doesn't like these rumors of change :()
msatran 01-11-08, 08:41 PM	Well...apparently, if you love the old realms, no. No you don't, because there's no Realmslore in it you will ever have a use for. And yes, Lord Karsus. Yes I do. A long, long time ago... There was a place we used to know... And we all thought we'd be there for a while... And if I knew we stood a chance When RSEs began to prance And they thought that we'd be happy for a while... But Fourth Edition made me nauseous Points of Light was so atrocious It was worse than grim newspapers Curse that crazy Richard Baker.... I can't remember if I cried But I sure felt that those guys lied Destroyed every running game alive The day...that the Realms died... So goodbye to that Ed Greenwood Guy Maybe Castlemourn with his beard shorn will keep things alive. And those wizards three were looking us in the eye And saying "Make a saving throw one more time..." Make a saving throw one more time... Did you write an FRCG And do you pray "God it's not me" When the designers tell you so? Do you believe in the old weave And that the seven sisters can save your soul And can you teach me to cast without a stick? Well I know you like to whine and scream That Drizzt's too mighty and Mystra's mean But they're both part of the world, So stop screaming like a little girl... I was just in my first year of college When I cracked that green box of knowledge But now I guess I'm older than Roone Arledge On the day...that the Realms died... So goodbye to that Ed Greenwood Guy Maybe Castlemourn with his beard shorn will keep things alive. And those wizards three were looking us in the eye And saying "Make a saving throw one more time..." Make a saving throw one more time... Now we've got ten years to be on our own Before the spellplague comes and we're alone But that's not how it used to be... When Ed Greenwood was still in charge Dressed like Elminster, not living large And his voice was still meant for having fun... And while Ed Greenwood was looking round Hasbro came and stuffed him in the ground No contract could survive They couldn't keep the Realms alive... And while Steven Schend struggled with Netherese And Richard Baker gave us cheese We all thought we'd get a timefreeze The day that the Realms died... And we were singing So goodbye to that Ed Greenwood Guy Maybe Castlemourn with his beard shorn will keep things alive. And those wizards three were looking us in the eye And saying "Make a saving throw one more time..." Make a saving throw one more time... Hacking with a winter cough Durnan the Wanderer wandered off His bastard sword went somewhere else His wife stuffed it up on the shelf. The Red Sashes replaced him with an elf In spite of all he'd done himself... Now Mirt the Moneylender saw his doom And locked himself inside his room We wondered now where Kitten went But her saucy wit just folded and bent. Cause the Evil is cool crowd ambushed us And crushed our storyline to dust They tossed Ed Greenwood off the bus The day that the Realms died... And we were singing... Goodbye to that Ed Greenwood Guy Maybe Castlemourn with his beard shorn will keep things alive. And those wizards three were looking us in the eye And saying "Make a saving throw one more time..." Make a saving throw one more time... There we were, they turned the Simbul blond And told us that they'd still keep Gond Then told us that we had to start again. So Storm be nimble, Storm be true Because you're a bard, there are no rules for you! Because Cyric is Richard Baker's only friend. Oh and as my players played my game They said it was a bloody shame. Some of them said they'd walk. With all this spellplague talk. And as the day of Fourth approached I thought I saw a ghostly coach But Sylune kicked off months ago... The day that the Realms died... So goodbye to that Ed Greenwood Guy Maybe Castlemourn with his beard shorn will keep things alive. And those wizards three were looking us in the eye And saying "Make a saving throw one more time..." Make a saving throw one more time... Eilistraee now sings the blues She's stuck in Lolth's old dirty shoes She just scowled at us as she turned away. I went down to Arvandor Where I saw elves once, years before. But now there were all different kinds instead. And in the streets, the gamers gabbed And in our kidneys, points of light stabbed No matter what words were spoken Our Forgotten Realms was broken. And the three men I admire most (Thanks, Markus) Vangerdahast, Elminster, and Khelben's Ghost Took the Eberron train for the coast The day that the Realms died... And they were singing... So goodbye to that Ed Greenwood Guy Maybe Castlemourn with his beard shorn will keep things alive. And those wizards three were looking us in the eye And saying "Make a saving throw one more time..." Make a saving throw one more time... So goodbye to that Ed Greenwood Guy Maybe Castlemourn with his beard shorn will keep things alive. And those wizards three were looking us in the eye And saying "Make a saving throw one more time..." Make a saving throw one more time...
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 08:46 PM	And yes, Lord Karsus. Yes I do. -Thank you.
Mordakay of Thay 01-11-08, 09:03 PM	And there's still allot of more "good news" to come -_-.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 09:12 PM	...:( I didn't like what I read. I'm not becoming any more convinced that this is still the Realms that I know and love. That's really all I have to say right now.
msatran 01-11-08, 09:15 PM	You're not alone, Rhee. I think basically they did it so that there's a hundred years for Novelists to write stuff. Even Elaine is pretty much saying "Goodbye, Wizards, and have a nice lifespan."
Rauric 01-11-08, 09:26 PM	It looks like people can forge their own Realms within that time or play in the current version.
msatran 01-11-08, 09:29 PM	Yeah. Wizards just lost a customer for half their product line. Do NOT buy this garbage. Do NOT. Perhaps the Realms can still be saved by those who really love it.
MarkusTay63 01-11-08, 09:30 PM	Well... I knew it would be interesting... and it IS that... :rolleyes: Gawd, I hated the Draconians SO much that I refused to ever read anything by Margaret Weiss - and now WE got 'em. :yuck: DL is my second least favorite D&D setting of all time (third if you count Council of Worms) - I would have preferred it if they turned FR into Eberron. It sounds like we are getting a little bit of everything; what happened to this so-called 'focus' we were told about? Netheril coming back - and being in TWO seperate places no less - is definate NOT to my liking AT ALL. Its just too... MESSY. :(
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 09:41 PM	...:( I didn't like what I read. I'm not becoming anymore convinced that this is still the Realms that I know and love. That's really all I have to say right now. -Console me? :weep:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 09:45 PM	It looks like people can forge their own Realms within that time or play in the current version. And that's exactly what I plan to do. But I still feel sad about what I read, even though I "knew" this was coming.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 09:47 PM	-Console me? :weep: :weep: *gives LK a warm, comforting hug*
Rauric 01-11-08, 09:55 PM	And that's exactly what I plan to do. But I still feel sad about what I read, even though I "knew" this was coming. That is all you can do. I remember people saying they wanted the 100 year instead of the 10 year jump just for that reason. So their current games could keep going in a similar style they are used to.
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 10:02 PM	But I still feel sad about what I read, even though I "knew" this was coming. -Yeah, agreed. We all were fairly sure that there was going to be a century time jump, and radical changes to the setting, but it's sad to see so much we've been speculatin in print. It's like acknowledging the futility of it all... :weep: *gives LK a warm, comforting hug* -That makes it a little more tolerable.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 10:03 PM	-That makes it a little more tolerable. Glad to hear it.:)
Kenzuki 01-11-08, 10:07 PM	I like it! Call me crazy but I think the idea has some potential. To all the naysayers out there, just play your campaigns before the Spellplague or ignor it all together. Of course I don't get to play anymore these days anyway, so it doesn't effect me either way.
MazrimTaim 01-11-08, 10:07 PM	Unfortunately I figured out that I just needed my forum sign-on to access the article. Ugh. Well it's "official" for me as far as not going over to 4e FR. :weep:
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 10:10 PM	Of course I don't get to play anymore these days anyway, so it doesn't effect me either way. -I don't play in the Realms, either, but it still affects guys like you and me. On the most basic level, all those stories that still haven't been told (A novel on the Dark Three, for instance ;)), are even less likely to ever be told now, as Rich Baker has informed us in the "Ask the Author" thread that there won't be support for the 'current' era anymore. So, among other ways, we're screwed in that regard.
MarkusTay63 01-11-08, 10:11 PM	Well, if you run a game in the current year, then you still have 10 years of 3e Realms gaming before the Spellplague kicks in, so why even worry about it? And you can move the calender forward as slow as you want in your own game. ;)
Kenzuki 01-11-08, 10:15 PM	-I don't play in the Realms, either, but it still affects guys like you and me. On the most basic level, all those stories that still haven't been told (A novel on the Dark Three, for instance ;)), are even less likely to ever be told now, as Rich Baker has informed us in the "Ask the Author" thread that there won't be support for the 'current' era anymore. So, among other ways, we're screwed in that regard. This is true, but I doubt they would have done it anyway. Hell, they never explained how Bane came back for pete's sakes! But I'm given the new Realms a chance cause I'm sure there will be some pretty cool novels set in the post-spellplague era that will rock. You guys have PLENTY of pre-Spellplague stuff to satisfy you for years or just make up stuff for Your Realms. I wish I still had some people to play with as I'de love to get back in the game.
GreenKnight 01-11-08, 10:17 PM	(A novel on the Dark Three, for instance ), are even less likely to ever be told now, as Rich Baker has informed us in the "Ask the Author" thread that there won't be support for the 'current' era anymore. The rise of the Dark Three isn't current era, either.
Kenzuki 01-11-08, 10:22 PM	The rise of the Dark Three isn't current era, either. Good point GreenKnight! And I heard someone over at Candlekeep mentioned something about how there was more to be revealed about them. Can't remember who it was though.
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 10:22 PM	This is true, but I doubt they would have done it anyway. Hell, they never explained how Bane came back for pete's sakes! -That's what I meant, but oops. You got the point. The rise of the Dark Three isn't current era, either. -See above.
Khellrendros 01-11-08, 10:24 PM	I tried to stay away from the boards and stuff so that I could try to make an unbiased decision when 4e launches. I have read things that have been put up in the DI and while I didn't like very many of them I still hoped for the best. Then comes this cluster *beep*. I can't agree with anything I read. I actually liked Sespech and Chondath but thats all gone now. I liked a lot of areas that ARE NOT the Sword Coast. Yet somehow that is the area that seems to have "survived" the best. I have bought nearly every FR book and accessory since I started playing. Some of them were great, some were good, and yes I think a few of them flat sucked. However I would buy every one of again if it would just stop this butchering. A ridiculous amount of money in those years but if this is what I can expect from now on I believe my money for the next 50 years or so can go to someone else in the RPG industry. Then again maybe I am just too depressed after reading this. I think I need to sleep on it.
MarkusTay63 01-11-08, 10:24 PM	The rise of the Dark Three isn't current era, either.Sure it is... Bane just 'rose', and Myrkul's still a Crown, and Bhaal could definately use some 'rising'... They could rise again, in the post-apocalyptic world of 1386 DR! :P I liked a lot of areas that ARE NOT the Sword Coast. Yet somehow that is the area that seems to have "survived" the best. Agree. The Sword Coast is my least favorite area - I know more about Maztica then I do about Waterdeep, for Chrisakes! I was so hoping the Aboleths would eat Waterdeep - they really are good for nothing. :(
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 10:27 PM	They could rise again, in the post-apocalyptic world of 1386 DR! :P -If he wasn't still alive, 1313 DR would have been a good time for Bhaal to have risen. Since he was still alive, 1313 DR would have been a good time for Bhaal to have done something interesting.
MarkusTay63 01-11-08, 10:30 PM	I heard he comes back in the year 666 PS (Post Spellplague). ;) You know, it would make sense if they re-started the calender with a new year one - its not the 'old world' anymore.
MerrikCale 01-11-08, 10:37 PM	well, now that the Realms are officially ruined by Baker and crew (I can't believe Ed's involved in this), I'm not sure what to do. Maybe some of us should build our own world. Someone map out a continent
Rauric 01-11-08, 10:40 PM	or keep playing in the Realms at 1385 +?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 10:40 PM	I very much love the Sword Coast, but that doesn't mean I'm in love with the changes in that region. I don't necessarily see it as a positive thing that Baldur's Gate is now the largest city in all Faerun. The description gave me the impression that it now has miles and miles of racial ghettos.
MarkusTay63 01-11-08, 10:41 PM	Someone map out a continent:D I think I may be too busy mapping out the 3.75 Realms, though - otherwise known as The hundred years of Hell on Earth Toril. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 10:42 PM	or keep playing in the Realms at 1385 +? Indeed. You don't *have* to introduce the Spellplague.
BadCatMan 01-11-08, 10:55 PM	Well, we're ****ed. I'm sure it might be a good enough campaign setting on it's own, but it's just not remotely good enough for the Realms. I though the nu-FR was supposed to streamlined, with less transplanted cultures - so dragonpeople have been transported in from another world. And less reliance on history - with a returned Empire Of Netheril. And there's a Mournland, sorry, Changing Lands.
MerrikCale 01-11-08, 11:09 PM	Indeed. You don't *have* to introduce the Spellplague. I don't like getting left behind. although I may have no choice. Its either that or play in this Rich Baker and company created dreck. This is depressing
Marcus Majarra 01-11-08, 11:11 PM	I very much like where the setting is going. There are plenty of interesting venues I see: 1. A change in the political landscape. Nations are less solitary now than they have ever been throughout the entire history of the Realms. Conquests, long-standing alliances, and a very much ongoing battle for power are great social contexts around which to build entire campaigns. 2. Drastic changes in the physical landscape. This is something very interesting considering the amount of published material there exists on pre-Spellplague Faerun. This is a gold mine of opportunities to revisit old ruins and find something new. 3. New players without retconning. Quite honestly, this is probably one of the best ways to bring dragonborn into the fray without messing up the history of the Realms. 4. New localized dynamics. I'm quite happy with what they're doing with Baldur's Gate. The potential of the city is so vast, and it brings a very different metropolis than what you'd expect from Waterdeep.
Lord Karsus 01-11-08, 11:11 PM	You know, it would make sense if they re-started the calender with a new year one - its not the 'old world' anymore. -Yeah, good point. The description gave me the impression that it now has miles and miles of racial ghettos. -Yeah, that part didn't look too cool.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 11:13 PM	I don't like getting left behind. although I may have no choice. Its either that or play in this Rich Baker and company created dreck. This is depressing Don't look at it as "being left behind." Look at it as "standing apart from the herd.";)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 11:15 PM	I'm quite happy with what they're doing with Baldur's Gate. The potential of the city is so vast, and it brings a very different metropolis than what you'd expect from Waterdeep. It's not that the concept itself is bad, it's just not the Baldur's Gate that I like. For me, that's what it comes down to.
unundindur 01-11-08, 11:16 PM	Hmm... After reading the article that largely confirmed all of what we knew I am a bit yes and no at the same time. Nethril, fair enough. I don't have any strong feelings for this either way. Elven court is back, cool. At long last we may have an iconic elven empire that is not super-impossible to reach, and near free of dangers. Unther gone, whatever. It always seemed to be an area with a tremendous amount of detail and history, but not really important in the context of iconic Faerun. Dragonborn in Faerun... HELL, WHY?!! The next is a cocatruman, a playable race of cocatrice-humans... Never have I met anyone who likes this stuff. If you wnat to be a human/dragon we had the nifty half-dragon. If you want to be a dragon-man you also want to be more powerful than any +0 lv adjustment can ever produce. Smaller panthenon. Well, it sure took some time for them to realise that this makes for an effective way of putting religion. Allah and christan "god" as the same, worshipped in different ways, as it should be. As a player and GM I really think this is for the greater good. Its just messy to deal with twenty layers of gods with little or no influence, who seem more like avatars than gods. Jergal comes to mind, the same goes for all the racial panthenons, Tyr/Torm constellation, Lurue (the unicorn goddess?) etc. etc. I hope they don't just magically dissapear, but that somehow it becomes clear that they were always the same, but that actual people never know (or know) this. The tiny gods may well magically merge with their masters to stand against other powerful gods (contingency effect. Once one panthenon merges, everyone have to do the same). Regarding the Spellplague as such I am not really sure what to think. I do beleive Ebberon have a lot to offer Faerun, but I just hope we can remain somewhat "low tech/magic", and I get a strange feeling machines, dragonfolk (damn it!) and weird lunar landscapes may dot Faerun too, which would really be a loss to what I see as the grim Faerun, in a good way.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 11:19 PM	Dragonborn in Faerun... HELL, WHY?!! What's funny is that the Dragonborn were introduced to the Realms in probably the easiest, least imaginative way possible, yet that particular development isn't even close to what bothered me the most about the article. I did find it interesting that these dragonborn have an ancestral hate for dragons. I don't recall seeing that bit in R&C regarding the "core" dragonborn.
Marcus Majarra 01-11-08, 11:20 PM	It's not that the concept itself is bad, it's just not the Baldur's Gate that I like. For me, that's what it comes down to. So if it had been another city, or even a new city, you would've liked it more?
MerrikCale 01-11-08, 11:22 PM	Don't look at it as "being left behind." Look at it as "standing apart from the herd.";) herd? Is that the herd heading over to Eberron?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-11-08, 11:25 PM	So if it had been another city, or even a new city, you would've liked it more? Why do you ask that?
unundindur 01-11-08, 11:26 PM	I very much like where the setting is going. There are plenty of interesting venues I see: 1. A change in the political landscape. Nations are less solitary now than they have ever been throughout the entire history of the Realms. Conquests, long-standing alliances, and a very much ongoing battle for power are great social contexts around which to build entire campaigns. Very good point, of which I agree fully. 2. Drastic changes in the physical landscape. This is something very interesting considering the amount of published material there exists on pre-Spellplague Faerun. This is a gold mine of opportunities to revisit old ruins and find something new. Agreed, I just hope we evade blue grass, green sky, pink trees and totally unrealistic landscapes (large scale). Such things are best left to other planes in my mind, or in extremely special cases on Toril. 3. New players without retconning. Quite honestly, this is probably one of the best ways to bring dragonborn into the fray without messing up the history of the Realms. In this case I think players should adapt and not the product. It just mess with the seriousity of Faerun in my mind. Dragon-people? That is a supe-niché, and should never be in the players handbook for that matter. Of course, we have the halfling, but this one is even more nichy. But I agree with you on your point, if they have to introduce them this is likely as good as it can get; teleport them from another plane. Its horrible in every way, but it cannot be done better. 4. New localized dynamics. I'm quite happy with what they're doing with Baldur's Gate. The potential of the city is so vast, and it brings a very different metropolis than what you'd expect from Waterdeep. The best for my part is that as a player I don't have a pre-set image in my head when I go to place X. I always hated to visit Baldurs Gate when I have played the games, and the DM had not. I suspect this is also the reason they want such drastic changes, Faerun just have to much litterature and detail to allow for ease of imagination (while retaining lolalty to official details). And a last point. Its great to finally get rid of many of the high level NPCs. They are cool, but for me its more as character inspiration than anything else. Why wouldnt some of the major organizations just kick the others butt? Harpers sure have some serious firepower, and it seems they never overthrow a single empire. Perhaps also the gods will start to have a bit less influence, which I would see as a good thing :) Let gods be gods, and others be others.
Marcus Majarra 01-11-08, 11:28 PM	herd? Is that the herd heading over to Eberron? It's highly doubtful. From what feel for the Realms I can gather from the article, I see no direct resemblance to Eberron or what the setting offers. The only way I actually do find resemblances is if I go through the trouble of looking for a way they could resemble one another. It's sort of like saying that Eberron was copied from FR on the basis that FR has had a mighty empire of giants in the distant past, and now Eberron does too.
MarkusTay63 01-11-08, 11:32 PM	1. A change in the political landscape. Nations are less solitary now than they have ever been throughout the entire history of the Realms. Conquests, long-standing alliances, and a very much ongoing battle for power are great social contexts around which to build entire campaigns.And exactly what does this new political landscape of super-powers have to do with 'Points of Light'? :uh-huh: Oh wait... thats what FR USED TO BE... 2. Drastic changes in the physical landscape. This is something very interesting considering the amount of published material there exists on pre-Spellplague Faerun. This is a gold mine of opportunities to revisit old ruins and find something new.First off, it sucks if you're a guy who makes maps. :( Second, if you had read Elminster's Temptation, you'd know that Elminster puts back all the magical items and treasure in those dungeons, five minutes after the adventurers leave. NO... I'm not kidding.... 3. New players without retconning. Quite honestly, this is probably one of the best ways to bring dragonborn into the fray without messing up the history of the Realms. Sooooo... 'just appearing out of nowhere' is considered creative lore, now? :bored: 4. New localized dynamics. I'm quite happy with what they're doing with Baldur's Gate. The potential of the city is so vast, and it brings a very different metropolis than what you'd expect from Waterdeep.Have you BEEN to LA? Because thats what BG just became.... :rolleyes:
Marcus Majarra 01-11-08, 11:39 PM	Why do you ask that? Three reasons: 1. You seem both reasonable and well versed in Realmslore 2. You can have an appreciation for the concept behind the new Baldur's Gate 3. Given #1 and #2, but your dislike that Baldur's Gate be used as a framework for this concept, I'm interested in knowing how you would've introduced a massive hub of Spellplague refugees in the new Realms. That is a supe-niché, and should never be in the players handbook for that matter. This is a matter of opinion. It's mostly proud nails vs. redefining niches. Its horrible in every way, but it cannot be done better. I don't think it's horrible at all. Of course, this is also a matter of opinion. The best for my part is that as a player I don't have a pre-set image in my head when I go to place X. I always hated to visit Baldurs Gate when I have played the games, and the DM had not. I suspect this is also the reason they want such drastic changes, Faerun just have to much litterature and detail to allow for ease of imagination (while retaining lolalty to official details). On this, I must respectfully disagree. I enjoy having a reasonable mental picture of locales in a setting. I like that the context is better defined in which to carry out adventures. Granted, having little to no context offers plenty of freedom for the DM to be creative with a particular locale, but this removes the locale from whatever makes the setting particular. Waterdeep has always been a cosmopolitan hub; the jewel of modern civilization in the Realms. I couldn't imagine a Waterdeep where the uncommon would seem really out of place. It's far easier for me to work on my characters' and my stories' backgrounds if some kind of cultural framework is already provided for me. And a last point. Its great to finally get rid of many of the high level NPCs. They are cool, but for me its more as character inspiration than anything else. Why wouldnt some of the major organizations just kick the others butt? Harpers sure have some serious firepower, and it seems they never overthrow a single empire. Maybe because that serious power wouldn't be enough to overthrow a single empire. After all, if even nations or other empires don't have the strength to overthrow one another, why should a small organization be able to do so? There's more to running the world than class levels.
coastiemike 01-11-08, 11:41 PM	Um..wow. I think they made me ill. I've got to digest what I read overnight before I can even comment. After reading this, I am also considering cancelling my trip to D&D Experience. I was trying to have an open-mind about 4th edition and was excited about playing in the two LFR previews. Alas, after seeing how they have dismantled the world and made an entirely new campaign setting, my hopes are now shot. Maybe some of the new shades of Netheril stole my hopes and I am dying in the Astral Plane next to Mystra............. *SIGH* So disappointed.
18DELTA 01-11-08, 11:43 PM	-Wow, I go to work and the sky comes crashing down?:rolleyes: :nonono: :uh-huh: :rant: :tantrum: :headexplo :headexplo :headexplo :banghead: :banghead: :hoppingma :hoppingma LORD DELTA:mad:
Marcus Majarra 01-11-08, 11:49 PM	And exactly what does this new political landscape of super-powers have to do with 'Points of Light'? Nothing, actually. Not every little element in the setting has to do with the concept of the Points of Light. In the Realms, the idea of the Points of Light is illustrated through the after-effects of the Spellplague. New creatures roam the land, the landscape changed. While a measure of stability is returning, there's still no place like home (if you still have a home). First off, it sucks if you're a guy who makes maps. As a hobby, yes. For a living, I wouldn't complain. You get more work! In any case, I don't see how this will be a problem for the average Realms consumer, since he can typically just use whatever maps the setting supplies. Second, if you had read Elminster's Temptation, you'd know that Elminster puts back all the magical items and treasure in those dungeons, five minutes after the adventurers leave. And now, this same treasure can be rediscovered from a completely different angle. It's a gold mine of opportunities to recover powerful relics of the past in a whole new world. Sooooo... 'just appearing out of nowhere' is considered creative lore, now? If they had appeared out of nowhere, I would say that it's not creative. The Tymanther dragonborn didn't appear out of nowhere. They came from a specific realm with its own dynamics and participants... much like Shade. Granted, the information on this realm is nebulous as to now (there be dragons there, and the dragonborn don't like'em), but there's plenty of room for development. Have you BEEN to LA? Because thats what BG just became.... I wasn't aware Los Angeles was a haven for refugees from all over the place. Just because a place features diverse cultures and races doesn't automatically turn it into a specific model. While I can recognize that LA is culturally diverse, it's certainly different from Montreal.
Coyote_Hood 01-11-08, 11:51 PM	I wonder if it would've gone over better if WotC started introducing the changes in the novels FIRST, then implemented 4e, as people would at least consider it canon to SOME degree? Just a thought. WotC: Next time your sales are down, and Hasbro says to fix it, make the transition nicer to your fans. Change is not 'bad', but is often unwanted. You need to use the same tactics that governments use to screw over people instead of just unloading it all at once. Slow, gradual introduction of the new concepts, so they are familiar with it. Famailiarity breeds acceptance. Sudden change breeds resistance. Duh. Personally, I'm going to look over the RULES (screw the fluff) to see how they operate. If they're better than 3e, I'll incorporate what I like into my homebrew games. If not, no loss.
18DELTA 01-11-08, 11:57 PM	-Wow...just freakin wow!!! I have never seen a bigger pile of cr@p before in my life.:rant: :rant: :censored: :censored: :tantrum: :tantrum: :banghead: :banghead: :hoppingma :hoppingma :thumbsdow :thumbsdow RICHARD BAKER MUST BE STOPPED!!!RICHARD BAKER MUST BE STOPPED!!! RICHARD BAKER MUST BE STOPPED!!!RICHARD BAKER MUST BE STOPPED!!! LORD DELTA:mad:
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 12:02 AM	Nothing, actually... <snip>BTW, wasn't attacking you AT ALL, so please don't take it that way - I know that 'multi-quoting thing' can sometimes be construed as belligerant. I was just addressing each of the points you made, in turn. As far as LA goes, the 'ethnic' thing actually popped into my mind AFTER I decided it was LA. The Greater Los Angelas Region is the largest-spreading metropolis in the world, so vast that it encompasses several smaller cities within-a-city, and can be seen from space! From Wikipedia - Los Angeles (IPA: /lɑˈsændʒʌlʌs/) is the largest city in the state of California and the second-largest in the United States of America.[1] Often abbreviated as L.A., it is an alpha world city (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city) having an estimated 2006 population of 3.8 million.[2] and spanning over 469.1 square miles (1,214.9 square kilometers) in Southern California. Additionally, the Los Angeles–Long Beach–Santa Ana metropolitan area is home to nearly 13 million people who hail from all over the globe and speak more than a hundred different languages.[3] Los Angeles is the seat of Los Angeles County, the most populous county in the United States. Its inhabitants call themselves "Angelenos." The city's most popular nickname is the "City of Angels". accent, mine. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Los-Angeles-from-Space.jpg Do we really want this for BG? Obviously, someone at WotC fell in love with that Alpha World City concept - unfortunately, its an incredibly MODERN concept. Also, they made a huge deal about changing the world BECAUSE of POL. and yet, it feels like there is even LESS wilderness then before. :uh-huh: I'm just not 'getting it'. :( Like I said, nothing against you, and I'm trying to be the face of reason, amongst the nay-sayers at this point. -Wow, I go to work and the sky comes crashing down?:rolleyes: :nonono: :uh-huh: :rant: :tantrum: :headexplo :headexplo :headexplo :banghead: :banghead: :hoppingma :hoppingma Someone needs to give his smilies a rest. :rolleyes:
Neutronium_Dragon 01-12-08, 12:06 AM	> Sooooo... 'just appearing out of nowhere' is considered creative lore, now? I take it, then, that you've excised the Mulhorandi and Untherites from your 3E and earlier FR campaign? Because that's how they ended up there too. If anything, the dragonborn appearing the way they did is a continuation of the established canon for the region.
Rauric 01-12-08, 12:15 AM	> Sooooo... 'just appearing out of nowhere' is considered creative lore, now? I take it, then, that you've excised the Mulhorandi and Untherites from your 3E and earlier FR campaign? Because that's how they ended up there too. If anything, the dragonborn appearing the way they did is a continuation of the established canon for the region. What? That makes sense. Get ye gone from these boards!;)
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 12:18 AM	...having an estimated 2006 population of 3.8 million... -That's it? I didn't realize LA's population itself was so small.
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 12:37 AM	-That's it? I didn't realize LA's population itself was so small.That is just for LA proper - if you read on, you realize that the Greater Los Angeles area contains 13 million people - all of those 'little cities' that used to surround it have been swallowed up by it, until it has become one gigantic 'mega-city'. And thats exactly what the 4e BG sounds to me. :( ________________________________________ ____________________________ And no, I didn't get rid of the Mulhhorandi, just changed their story... and their culture... Got rid of Unther, though, and added in a third 'race' that the Imaskari brought over. You see, the Imaskari are canon, so whatever they do is fine and dandy. They started out on Toril, so its all good. The Dragonborn started out somewhere else, which makes it ANOTHER setting, and therefore it doesn't belong in the Realms. I HATED Dragonlance, with a passion (quite my group over it), and I absolutely REFUSE to let my version of FR get 'crapped on' by Draconians in disguise. The only people who would play them is somebody with an inferiority complex who just wanted to be bigger and stronger then everyone else. Its not so much about the Races, as it is about the kind of people they will attract. I love Drow, but I don't allow PCs to play them in my Realms... because I hate the kinds of people who want to 'be Drizzt'. Do you see my point? I'm not whining, I'm just saying I will NEVER, EVER use them... at least not as written. BTW, if you want a more plausible reason for them in the Realms, go over to the Cosmology forum and look into the Order and Creation of the Planes thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=302068&page=12) - I came up with a way of including them in 4e, without out resorting to "they popped in out of mowhere" - it fits the canon Realms, and I didn't have to even try all that hard. Funny thing is, I wouldn't even use that, and I wrote it! Thats how much I dislike this 397th race of 'lizard people' in FR. :headexplo
Marcus Majarra 01-12-08, 12:41 AM	BTW, wasn't attacking you AT ALL, so please don't take it that way - I know that 'multi-quoting thing' can sometimes be construed as belligerant. I was just addressing each of the points you made, in turn. Don't worry; no harm, no foul. If I had to take offense to anything, it would be to the more blind claims that they're bringing the Realms closer to Eberron, and this is only because I have decent knowledge of the Realms and extensive knowledge about Eberron, and I don't see how the new Realms are even resembling Eberron in the slightest. As far as LA goes, the 'ethnic' thing actually popped into my mind AFTER I decided it was LA. <snip> Do we really want this for BG? If being an Alpha World City were all there is to the new Baldur's Gate, I would find it wasteful. As it is, I see Baldur's Gate as being more of a culturally diverse haven for the more unfortunate victims of the Spellplague than anything else. Baldur's Gate turning into a sort of Alpha World City is merely a logical consequence of this. Also, they made a huge deal about changing the world BECAUSE of POL. and yet, it feels like there is even LESS wilderness then before. I'm just not 'getting it'. Less wilderness than before? I find that hard to believe. After all, no new civilized realms were formed (except for the reconstruction of Netheril). Some were annexed, others simply replaced with an equivalent. However, we do know that plenty of formerly inhabited areas were made inhospitable by the Spellplague, which forced the survivors to congregate. If anything, this feeds the PoL concept beautifully, I'd say. I HATED Dragonlance, with a passion (quite my group over it), and I absolutely REFUSE to let my version of FR get 'crapped on' by Draconians in disguise. The only resemblances between Dragonlance draconians and dragonborn are barely superficial. If dragonborn were draconians in disguise, they would be nothing alike. The only people who would play them is somebody with an inferiority complex who just wanted to be bigger and stronger then everyone else. I don't believe this kind of generalization is constructive.
Keldar 01-12-08, 01:04 AM	> Sooooo... 'just appearing out of nowhere' is considered creative lore, now? I take it, then, that you've excised the Mulhorandi and Untherites from your 3E and earlier FR campaign? Because that's how they ended up there too. If anything, the dragonborn appearing the way they did is a continuation of the established canon for the region. Except the Dragonborn were allready introduced into Faerun in the Year of Lightning Storms with the Dragonfall. It is more than a little pointless to reuse the 'appeared in a puff of smoke' route when another more creative entrance was allready in place. ------------------------------------ WotC just lost a FR customer with this article. Mostly its that century jump that did it in for me. Most of the NPCs that made the Realms interesting are gone, as are hundreds of thousands of PCs. All between one book and the next. The worst kind of death, ignoble and off screen. I'll just keep playing FR with the books I own now. WotC has nothing to offer me anymore. :(
GreenKnight 01-12-08, 01:05 AM	And this board just ate a longass post I made. I clicked Preview Post, and instead of showing me the preview, it ate my post. *sigh* Nevermind...
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 01:05 AM	I know the feeling, and feel your pain. :( I don't believe this kind of generalization is constructive.You're right, sorry. It was just an observation I have made over the years about the kinds of people who like to play the +2 (or better) LA types. Its usually about being better then everyone else. Perhaps I just have a bunch of dweeds living near me, and the rest of the D&D world is more sophisticated. Anyhow, Dragons are what HEROES (what PCs USED to be) fight, not become. What next, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?! :confused: And Cormyr got BIGGER, and is now wedged between two slices of Netherese pie, with the Elven Kingdom of Cormanthor smashed up against the both of them. The Swordcoasts untouched... Silver Marches is still there, along with a new Orc Kingdom (remember? ;) ), and BG has become a sprawling mass that covers half the coast... between Waterdeep and Calimport, which are also massive, mercantile cities. Maybe your right... maybe the twenty feet or so between sprawling urban settlements will be REAL scarey... sorry, I'n just NOT seeing it... Oh, and I know Eberron and FR also, except in reverse of you (Tons about FR, a little about Eb), and I am so getting the 'Mournland' vibe from the Plaguelands... They WILL have living Spells within them, or didn't you know that? It really doesn't get more derivitive then THAT. So now we have DL meets EB, all over the Realms. I have really, REALLY been trying not to be pessimistic these last few weeks, but I'm not lovin' what I'm hearing, thats all there is to it. If it were a whole new setting, without the Forgotten Realms monicker tacked onto it, I might be interested, but it just doesn't 'feel' right anymore.
msatran 01-12-08, 01:07 AM	Incorrect, Mr. Majarra. Here's how I look at this. DC Comics: Wait! Things are completely retarded. We don't know what's going on. Let's have a big dimensional crisis!!!!! 7 Years later. Wait! We !@#$%%@!ed up too much! Let's have a big dimensional crisis! 7 Years later. See above. 7 Years later. See above. 7 Years later. See above. Marvel Comics: Hey! That worked pretty good for DC. See Above. See Above. See Above. Forgotten Realms Design Teams: Hey, look what they were doing in Marvel and DC Comics. It fixed everything, and it only takes them seven years before everything is !#$%$$!ed up again. I KNOW. If we have the same dimensional crisis, and then skip one hundred years, we won't have to deal with any of those screwups. But what about our fans? BLEEP the fans. They're not important. Hasbro! Our Brand Name! That's what's important. Hmm...Mad Max Beyond The Forgotten Realms! I like it. Richard Baker has, in the space of a single year, managed to elevate himself from a tawdry writer and game designer who has done very little in the industry that I consider good, to the Dan Didio and Joe Quesada of the Forgotten Realms. Congratulations, Mr. Baker. I wonder what else you can ruin before I die.
sfdragon 01-12-08, 01:09 AM	WoTC might have just lost another customer with this article as well. btw I HATE eberron. JuSt BeCaUSe YoU CoUlD,DoEsN't MeAn YoU ShOuLd edit: the realms can go back to Ed Greenwood for all i care if this continues
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 01:19 AM	A wee bit on the harsh side, msatran, but I hear you. It never ceases to amaze me when things like Flash Gordon make it onto TV, and you just know that tons of people were involved in making it, and you ask yourself "did ALL of them REALLY think this was ANY good?" :uh-huh: You ever hear of Mass Hysteria? Well, I think there may be something like Mass Delusional that works pretty much the same way. I don't need to worry about my game - its not doing anything I don't want it to. I'm just upset about the brand - I hope it can be saved somehow. :(
Neutronium_Dragon 01-12-08, 01:20 AM	> It was just an observation I have made over the years about the kinds of > people who like to play the +2 (or better) LA types. Most of the +LA races in 3E were substantially inferior from a mechanical standpoint. Not that it matters much: 4E dragonborn aren't being written to be more powerful than everyone else, so if someone's choosing one for the power then they'd be equally likely to choose an elf or dwarf for the power. (And at least the dragonborn chosen for this reason probably won't be named something similar to 'Legolas'.)
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 01:24 AM	That is just for LA proper - if you read on, you realize that the Greater Los Angeles area contains 13 million people - all of those 'little cities' that used to surround it have been swallowed up by it, until it has become one gigantic 'mega-city'. -And, how does one define the "Greater Area"? I mean, lump the I-95 northeast corridor together, and you have a massive...thing as well. -No, someone I used to know was from LA, and he constantly liked to "bash" NYC. I don't know if anyone realizes it or not, but I am very 'nationalistic', especially when it comes to my heritage, and where I come from. New York City is better than all other cities. Anyway, he would always tell me how NYC was so small population wise as compared to LA. But, compare NYC's 8.something million residents to LA's 3.8. Meh, he was such a dummy. -And, while we're on the subject, calling the new Baldur's Gate a Global City is something of a misnomer. I actually took Comparative Urbanology last semester. As I see it, judging from what we know, and from what I can assume about things, the new Baldur's Gate has the makings of a Global City, but isn't exactly one, yet. One of the main points of Global Cities are that they have large levels of foreign investments, as well as large populations and multicultural institutions, and I don't necessarily see Baldur's Gate having high levels of foreign investment.
Tashanen 01-12-08, 01:26 AM	WotC just lost a FR customer with this article. Mostly its that century jump that did it in for me. Most of the NPCs that made the Realms interesting are gone, as are hundreds of thousands of PCs. All between one book and the next. The worst kind of death, ignoble and off screen. I'll just keep playing FR with the books I own now. WotC has nothing to offer me anymore. :( Agreed. The changes to the Realms coupled with certain mechanics changes in 4e, as highlighted in the preview articles, have lost WotC my business at least until 5e comes out. Though if 5e maintains the same features as 4e.... then I won't ever be buying WotC products again.
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 01:29 AM	The changes to the Realms coupled with certain mechanics changes in 4e, as highlighted in the preview articles, have lost WotC my business at least until 5e comes out. Though if 5e maintains the same features as 4e.... then I won't ever be buying WotC products again. -What about 4.5? 3.75? ;)
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 01:37 AM	Maybe mechanically they were inferior, but to someone who is 'none too bright', the LA meant they were getting something someone else wasn't. Thats all I'm going to say about that - I think the game has grown too far away from the original concept, but there's no going back now. :( Anyhow, I was able to uncover some 'top-secret' WotC artwork; this is what the typical party consisting of a few dragonborn will look like in the 4e Realms - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/dragonborn_4e.gif Remember - you saw it HERE first. ;) At least we now know the age group they were aiming for with this new edition. :rolleyes:
18DELTA 01-12-08, 01:47 AM	-Yep, WotC just handed us our pink slips. Our services are no longer required. They are changing everything to drive us away. We just got fired.:rolleyes: LORD DELTA:(
Tashanen 01-12-08, 01:50 AM	-What about 4.5? 3.75? ;) 3.75 is nothing more than me perusing the 4e SRD and back porting any features I like. Though I've already done some retrofitting with talent trees from d20 Modern and the incorporation of ToB stuff. But 4.x as presented in the design and development, playtest, preview articles & developer blogs doesn't appeal to me at all.
GreenKnight 01-12-08, 01:53 AM	Anyway, I agree with you, Markus, that it's weird having Sembia be under Netherese control without them sharing a contiguous border. However, after reading the article and a posting by Rich, I'm wondering about the exact nature of that control. Here're the relevant quotes. More importantly, the Netherese seized control of the wealthy nation of Sembia in the Twilight War just before the advent of the Spellplague, and they have not relinquished it since. V successfully resisted Netheril’s efforts to bring Cormyr under its domionion, and he fought Netherese-sponsored Sembia to a stalemate in a war 40 years ago, preserving Cormyr from Sembia’s fate. With the growing shade influence in Sembia, the cities of the Vast are becoming home to a number of Sembian houses-in-exile "Netherese-sponsored" and "growing shade influence" makes it sound less like a conquered nation and more like a vassal state. I.E. some Sembians, with Netherese support, overthrew the ruling government and took power, and are now beholden to the Netherese. So a client state, not a slave state. Who knows. I gotta read that trilogy by Kemp to see what's up, as it likely explains the situation. But even if it is dominated, there're ways around not having a land route to reach them. From magical portals to something like airships. Not great, but there're ways around that problem. And now for some random comments, directed at no one in particular. On the issue of Thay, it's safe to say that it's still around, despite appearances. forbidding plateaus were lifted thousands of feet higher, leaving many of its cities in ruins. Here's a quote by Rich Baker on Thay. The Red Wizards are getting shaken up; Richard Byers' new Thay series is all over that, and I can't say much without giving up spoilers for the novels. Clearly Szass Tam thinks Necromancy should be in charge of all the others, through. So while Thay's down, it's not out. And with the timespan, it may've long recovered from the damage it sustained. They're probably better off, now, as Thay's now practically unassailable. The vast Underdark system beneath the western Shaar suffered a calamitous collapse, leaving a miles-deep pit the size of a country where the Landrise once ran. I marked that area in purple on the map, below. So anyone knows who lives there? Cause they just got boned. :P http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/2268666Spellplague01.jpg But the truth of the matter is even stranger: As it did in many other places in Faerûn, the Spellplague opened the door to some other realm entirely, wrenching the aeries and castles of the dragonborn from their native land—wherever that once was—and depositing them amid the chaos of devastated Unther. I wonder if this is what Drizzt was meant when he talked about "the discordant and disastrous joining of two worlds"? To the south, the city of Baldur’s Gate became a refuge for countless thousands fleeing the ruin wrought by the Spellplague in the lands south of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Where other cities and lands turned away such refugees, Baldur’s Gate tolerated them… and now, almost a century later, it is the largest city in Faerûn, sprawling for mile after mile along the banks of the Chionthar. Each group of refugees created their own neighborhood under the walls of the previous immigrants’ districts, and the city is a mad patchwork of crowded neighborhoods, each dominated by a single race or human ethnicity such as dwarf, halfling, gnome, Turmic, or Shaaran. I don't know about anyone else, but as I was reading this, all I could think of was the smell of pee. Lots and lots of pee. Waterdeep is still governed by its Lords, advised by the Blackstaff—the most powerful mage of Blackstaff Tower, heir to the lore of the mighty Khelben. From the sound of this, it appears that Blackstaff Tower is populated by numerous Wizards, with the head honcho holding the title of 'Blackstaff'. So what's Blackstaff Tower, now? A wizard school, wizard order, or something similar? Anyway, all things considered, I'm pretty much neutral towards the contents of this article. The timeline jump wasn't really a surprise, and most of the places I care about are still standing. The Sword Coast, Waterdeep, the Silver Marches, Cormyr, and the Dalelands, all look to have come out of the Spellplague alright, for the most part. And Thay may've come out better (depending on the specifics of their new geography). As for the Dragonborn country, I don't mind it. Unther's been pretty much gone for a while, now, having been conquered by Mulhorand. And now it's been taken over by the Dragonborn. No real loss, there. I'm certainly not feeling like I've just been rochambeaued, as I did after hearing some of the other things released about the 4E Realms. It's just the way I prioritize things, I suppose, but a section of the Shaar collapsing isn't as big of a deal to me as Mystra, the standard bearer of the Realms, getting killed off, or Helm dying in such an embarassing manner, or Selune/Sehanine/Gruumsh/Talos getting merged, and so on. Of course, at the end of the article, I got cause for worry. In upcoming previews, we’ll take a more thorough look at other aspects of the new Faerûn—the fate of the Chosen, the nature of the pantheon... *gulp* God, I just hope SOME of the Seven Sisters come out of this unscathed! :(
Straploknight 01-12-08, 02:02 AM	Hmmmm..... this is how I'm gonna play it. 4th Ed Fr is really to divergent for me, so I'm going with this. I'll get the new FR setting book, but I'm gonna treat it as some sort of wierd parallel dimension. http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b303/bossco/FRdiverge.jpg
18DELTA 01-12-08, 02:08 AM	Someone needs to give his smilies a rest. :rolleyes: -:P Their my smilies and I will abuse them if I want to.;) -So whats up with your Ultimate Forgotten Realms project?:) -Didn't Mr. Phipps start something to that effect?:confused: LORD DELTA:(
GreenKnight 01-12-08, 02:14 AM	Hmmmm..... this is how I'm gonna play it. 4th Ed Fr is really to divergent for me, so I'm going with this. I'll get the new FR setting book, but I'm gonna treat it as some sort of wierd parallel dimension. http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b303/bossco/FRdiverge.jpg For home games, I'll probably ignore anything from 1380 or so on. I'm just hoping the Realms isn't left completely unrecognizable in 4E, as I want to play in Living Forgotten Realms. Why I was glad to see some of my favorite countries/cities/towns make it out mostly unscathed. Well, we'll see.
msatran 01-12-08, 02:15 AM	Well, I don't think I'll be buying their product. What's the point? By the time I get to 1385, it will be time for 5th edition.
sfdragon 01-12-08, 02:18 AM	All hands on deck, this is Capt. Keyes, im activating cole protocol article 11( yeah i know its actually article 2, but who cares)
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 02:19 AM	3.75 is nothing more than me perusing the 4e SRD and back porting any features I like. -What does SRD stand for, anyway? I mean, I vaguely know what it is (The big ol' Rule Compendium), but I could never piece together that acronym. Anyway, I agree with you, Markus, that it's weird having Sembia be under Netherese control without them sharing a contiguous border. However, after reading the article and a posting by Rich, I'm wondering about the exact nature of that control. Here're the relevant quotes. "Netherese-sponsored" and "growing shade influence" makes it sound less like a conquered nation and more like a vassal state. I.E. some Sembians, with Netherese support, overthrew the ruling government and took power, and are now beholden to the Netherese. So a client state, not a slave state. Who knows. I gotta read that trilogy by Kemp to see what's up, as it likely explains the situation. -A puppet dictatorship, monarchy, whathaveyou. -Note, though, that Russia has a weird border like that. Just thought I'd interject. I'm certainly not feeling like I've just been rochambeaued, as I did after hearing some of the other things released about the 4E Realms. -Rochambeaued...You know, most people remember the name of the other admiral (Marquis De Lafayette), but I can never remember his name, and always remember Rochambeau. Go figure.
Tashanen 01-12-08, 02:24 AM	-What does SRD stand for, anyway? I mean, I vaguely know what it is (The big ol' Rule Compendium), but I could never piece together that acronym. System Reference Document http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 02:33 AM	System Reference Document -Aha!
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 02:33 AM	I marked that area in purple on the map, below. So anyone knows who lives there? Cause they just got boned. :P The only thing near the area of effect (underground) would be Llurth Dreir - the Drow city that worships Ghaunadaur. Expect Ghaunadaur to be linked to the Far Realms in 4e - its become rather apparent that they will use them somewhere, with Bruce Cordell 'mucking about' in the north and south east. I guess a lot of Loxo, Wemics, and Thri-Kreen will die... does anyone really care? :bored: I'm just numb right now... or tired... or both........
GreenKnight 01-12-08, 02:35 AM	-Note, though, that Russia has a weird border like that. Just thought I'd interject. I was thinking the same of Alaska, but that's not so bad, as it shares a coastline with the rest of the US, you can get there by plane, or you can travel overland through friendly Canadian territory. Netheril and Sembia are lacking in at least two of those advantages, what with the waterways and overland routes passing through enemy territory. -Rochambeaued...You know, most people remember the name of the other admiral (Marquis De Lafayette), but I can never remember his name, and always remember Rochambeau. Go figure. Rochambeaued as in "getting kicked in the nuts". The feeling I got with the early 4E Realms news.
msatran 01-12-08, 02:36 AM	Darn. There goes my Incredible Journey campaign. A Loxo, A Wemic, A Thri-Kreen, and a Centaur are trying to find their way back to the Shaar. Only now there's a pit there, and... No. Actually, (Thankfully) I don't run this campaign. At all.
Tashanen 01-12-08, 02:39 AM	I'm just numb right now... or tired... or both........ I'm beyond numb now - moved through ****** off all the way to resigned. I'll just ignore any new lore and either make candlekeep my online venue of choice or take the aspects of FR that I've always loved since introduced to it back with the Greybox and start working on my own world. Braeunk vhos trolkh!
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 02:51 AM	A Loxo, A Wemic, A Thri-Kreen, and a Centaur are trying to find their way back to the Shaar. Only now there's a pit there, and... -So, a Loxo, a Wemic, a Thri-Keen and a Centaur walk into a bar... I'll just ignore any new lore and either make candlekeep my online venue of choice... -Don't do that.
Marcus Majarra 01-12-08, 03:33 AM	You're right, sorry. Again, no harm, no foul. Anyhow, Dragons are what HEROES (what PCs USED to be) fight, not become. What next, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?! Ironically, you'd be closer in correctly assessing the dragonborn if you were to compare them more to TMNT rather than actual dragons. I mean, if you were to play a TMNT, you might see the resemblance between your race and a turtle, but you certainly wouldn't go saying something along the lines of "OMG! I'm a frickin' tortoise!" Also ironically, the dragonborn seem quite interested in fighting dragons, which lends well to the idea that heroes are made for fighting dragons. Here's the question I ask you now: if dragonborn were different, would you feel the same way? What if this was a new breed of lizardfolk? Or some long-lost serpentine humanoid race created by the Sarrukh? For that matter, what if instead of dragonborn, we had a new and completely different race that need not be anthropomorhic in any way, would you still feel the same? And Cormyr got BIGGER, and is now wedged between two slices of Netherese pie, with the Elven Kingdom of Cormanthor smashed up against the both of them. Considering the focus Cormyr has been receiving lately, I'm rather glad it's still around, and that it's evolving. And the Netherese pie is looking rather tasty. Powerful spellcasters + money? That's certainly got to work. It did for Thay, didn't it? I remember I used to joke about going to Thay-Mart with the other players in my old FR gaming group. We really loved those enclaves. Anyway, I digress. I find that the geopolitical situation of Cormyr is most interesting at this point. Despite the seemingly good condition of the state, it's caught in between two parts of an expansionist nation. This is bound to create interesting intrigue, to say the least. Kind of like in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, during which Shade tried to subtly insinuate its way to a proeminent role in central Faerun. I really liked that, and I see potential for more similar politics with the 4E Cormyr. It's a good thing it has the 4E Cormanthor (and other allied realms) to make sure the Netherse don't win so easily. The Swordcoasts untouched... Silver Marches is still there, along with a new Orc Kingdom (remember? ), and BG has become a sprawling mass that covers half the coast... between Waterdeep and Calimport, which are also massive, mercantile cities. Maybe your right... maybe the twenty feet or so between sprawling urban settlements will be REAL scarey... I don't think Baldur's Gate getting bigger will significantly reduce the amount of "dangerous overworld" there is, although I admit the Orc Kingdom might be a different matter altogether. Of course, we still don't know what happens to many parts of the Realms. If the Western Heartlands do take a beating due to the Spellplague, that'll knock off a lot of urban settlements. sorry, I'n just NOT seeing it... Well, seeing it, at this point, requires that you keep an open mind and consider the possibilities. If you stick too much on the idea that you don't like the changes because they're drastically changing the current Realms, your mind will remain closed to the good things these changes could be bringing about. Oh, and I know Eberron and FR also, except in reverse of you (Tons about FR, a little about Eb), and I am so getting the 'Mournland' vibe from the Plaguelands... They WILL have living Spells within them, or didn't you know that? I didn't know that. But to be quite honest, while it's true that Living Spells were first featured in Eberron's Mournland, I see them as being more appropriate to FR's plaguelands, if only because these lands are constantly affected by magic gone awry. Still, I must insist that, from what I read in that article, the plaguelands will be very different in nature and role from the Mournland. So now we have DL meets EB, all over the Realms. I have really, REALLY been trying not to be pessimistic these last few weeks, but I'm not lovin' what I'm hearing, thats all there is to it. See, I wouldn't even go to actually comparing what's happening to the Realms to Eberron or Dragonlance (and if I did, what's going on is certainly closer to Dragonlance than it is to Eberron). Nothing significative about either setting is leaving a lasting mark on the Realms. If the coming and going of pantheons were to shake the very foundation of the Realms or if magic were to be used as a commodity rather than as an art, I would say otherwise. If it were a whole new setting, without the Forgotten Realms monicker tacked onto it, I might be interested, but it just doesn't 'feel' right anymore. That's the thing: for this setting to work, it needs to be set in Faerun. It's because it's set in Faerun that it will work. The current state of affairs will likely be built according to whatever legacy the 3E Realms have left. The idea behind the 4E FR is taking the setting, and creating a new perspective on it. Of course, this doesn't mean that every FR player will try or learn to enjoy 4E FR. After all, many DL players still play in the era of the War of the Lance, as it's believed to be one of the more interesting time periods for the setting. But some do enjoy the current goings on of the 5th Age, which motivates the publishing of more DL sourcebooks and novels. Incorrect, Mr. Majarra. Exactly what is incorrect? You've illustrated how a clean slate is a relatively common approach in literature when the writers feel the material is getting stale. While not everyone likes this approach, it certainly has its merits, as proven by sales in the comic book industry. If all those major dimensional screw ups were such a drastic mistake, why didn't the comic book companies go down? Is it possible that some of the material they published was good enough to keep the industry working? Listen, I understand that you don't like this. That's fine. Does this mean that the changes in design are a bad thing? If Ed Greenwood, creator of the Realms, were to give his seal of approval in the 4E FR design (which I guess he must do, to a point, since he is collaborating on the FRCG), would the changes in design be a bad thing? Before blaming Rich Baker for "destroying the Realms," you should consider that he's not making these decisions alone. Some of the people involved in this might have actually worked to bring the Realms to their current state.
Coyote_Hood 01-12-08, 04:23 AM	I'm having a crazy thought. It's purely conjecture... Iron Kingdoms is an RPG based of the tabletop game Warmachine. Eberron is uncannily similar in its flavor, though leaning toward magic over steam. So uncanny, that blending the two makes a great game. Khador = Karnaath, Protectorate of Menoth = Thrane, Cygnar = Breland, etc. etc. (Warforged = playable Steamjacks) WotC seems to be leaning toward 'streamlining' and 'down-sizing' their rules and settings. I think, maybe, that they're simply going back to D&D's origins as a tabletop wargame....probably at the request of Hasbro. *On a side note, Hasbro also makes 'HeroScaope', that hex-based miniatures game, and it is based off the concept of a 'planar breach' of sorts- with heroes and villains from all times/dimensions coming together to battle... sounds similar to the Spellplague...and possibly Eberron's Mournland... Anyway. My ponderings led me to wonder if Hasbro isn't planning on 4e as a midway point toward converting D&D to a full-out miniatures wargame with optional RPG rule. Perhaps even going so far as to use the Spellplague and some cataclysm in Eberron to be the precursors to 5e....when they meld the two campaign settings together, in some unholy abomination!!!!!muwahahahaha..... Think about it....Cormyr/Breland.....Baldur's Gate/Sharn....Netheril/Karrnath...Thrane/Whatever Faerun's new religious crazies are...Thay/Aundair?...etc. This would provide a great setting for faction-based miniatures, doing away with alignment....this would fit in the 'points of light' theme, as armies vie for power....etc. Just playing devil's advocate with my musings....not that any of this would ever happen.:D
Kenzuki 01-12-08, 07:09 AM	Baldur's Gate is my favorite FR city so I do hope it gets some loving. It becoming the largest city on Faerun actually has possibilities.
Jiggawha 01-12-08, 07:13 AM	I like the part with the Thayan plateaus, it somehow emphasises the Thayan threat and with the people of Unther transformed into dragonpeople, like that too, it just adds to the diversitiy of the FR, reminds me of Sumerian myths too don't like the Shadovar actions, Anauroch should have been a shadowy realm, now they are farmers, inhabitants of the Plane of Shadow surely had their own kind of ''farms'' About Sembia, depends how much if it will change, I assume that the Shade is really behind the scenes, everything else remains the same ? the idea with Baldur's Gate is great, with slums and all, I've found it boring before with Duke Eltan and all the order there Overall I like the 100 year jumpoff cause it gives some space to all the RSE that were happening much too often, on the other hand much of the detailed lore will be lost to the new players, surely some of them will stumble upon it and the real beauty of FR fomorians? I hope that all gets described well cause the 3E emphasis on stats rather than lore is the worst problem that ever happened to FR
Borris 01-12-08, 07:20 AM	Well, they're already changing the rules for D&D Miniatures towards a faction-based game, doing away with alignment. But unlike games like Heroscape, Magic the Gathering, or the old Chainmail miniatures game, DDM has no story premise. There are simply two opposing warbands meeting on a given battlefield and finding until one side wins: no explanation needed. While DDM includes a good number of monsters and characters taken from campaign settings such as FR or Eberron, there's no need to find a way to explain how a cleric of Bane, cultists of Blood of Vol, Baaz draconians, and Strahd Von Zarovich end up fighting together. Nothing in DDM will ever finds its way to the canon of any campaig setting. Eberron and thr Forgotten Realms will remain apart. We already know that Eberron will get converted to 4th edition somewhere in 2009. And if you really want to link the two, you can just do how people did in 3rd edition: use the plane of shadow, gates, Sigil, etc.
Dzwood 01-12-08, 08:27 AM	I very much love the Sword Coast, but that doesn't mean I'm in love with the changes in that region. I don't necessarily see it as a positive thing that Baldur's Gate is now the largest city in all Faerun. The description gave me the impression that it now has miles and miles of racial ghettos. Kind of sort of Sharn like...........
Mordakay of Thay 01-12-08, 08:27 AM	Besides the damage done to the realms,i'm really scared of how the rules will be.I'm worried for all the rulesystem,but,considering my favorite class is mage,i'm afraid of how this spellplague nonsense will change how magic works,how spells are memorised and cast.And I'm having a really bad feeling about it :twitch: .
nobodez_here 01-12-08, 08:49 AM	As someone who came to the Forgotten Realms with 3rd edition, and then promptly left because of the fact that I didn't want to have to read three dozen books just to get the story, I like the new Realms. This article gives me the image of a campaign world that I'll love playing in. Especially when LFR comes along. All the new races have a place, there's danger, and because of the Spell Plague, they don't need to do continual ret-con for each new rules item. It's a blank slate upon which they can craft their rules, rather then having to shoehorn them into decades of backstory.
Alediran 01-12-08, 09:03 AM	As someone who came to the Forgotten Realms with 3rd edition, and then promptly left because of the fact that I didn't want to have to read three dozen books just to get the story, I like the new Realms. As someone who came to the Forgotten Realms with 3rd edition. I loved it and read every thing I could even from old editions (I have almost every 2nd and 3rd edition book). I hate the new realms. This article gives me the image of a campaign world that I'll love playing in. Especially when LFR comes along. This article gives me the image of a campaign world that I'll never play in. LFR will finish killing the realms. All the new races have a place, there's danger, and because of the Spell Plague, they don't need to do continual ret-con for each new rules item. All the new races don't belong, there is danger in the 3rd edition realms, the spellplague was a lame attempt to made the change. It's a blank slate upon which they can craft their rules, rather then having to shoehorn them into decades of backstory. It's not a blank slate, Netheril is older than the old. If you want to use them you need 1st, 2nd and 3rd material. How's that for a blank slate ah? Decades of backstory will still affect the realms 4ed. They WILL ALWAYS DO.
Krash 01-12-08, 09:24 AM	Looks like Halruaa isn't around anymore ... http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/BlogPost.aspx?blogpostid=33552&pagemode=2&blogid=5122 -- George Krashos
Alediran 01-12-08, 09:30 AM	Looks like Halruaa isn't around anymore ... http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/BlogPost.aspx?blogpostid=33552&pagemode=2&blogid=5122 -- George Krashos Ok, now they've done it. One of Alediran's teachers is dead. I love Halruaa.
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 09:45 AM	Vassa is awful close to Impiltur, George - hope none of that nukes it for you. :(
Valgard 01-12-08, 09:48 AM	Wow... when I saw the Dragon Features' article I thought: "at least three pages in the forums"... well, there were four. :D I think it isn't as bad as I thought... in fact, I thought the worst about it. I still don't like it much, but as Marcus (Mijarra, not Tay... you are having a good discussion about this) says, there's some new oportunities out there. What I don't like about these new Realms setting is that it is some freakin' nightmare world based upon the ol' one. It could be so good if this new post-"I am Legend" Forgotten Realms was the official canon D&D lore setting and keeping the ol' one as it was. I don't know what's bugging so much with the new dragonborn. I respect that somebody doesn't like them, but I think that a dragon-based race is a wonderful idea for a game called Dungeons & Dragons, and considering the precedent of draconic lore about good vs evil, and divinities and all that stuff, I think that dragonborn are an awesome input to the game. When I saw the Races and Classes preview, this was the race I loved must. I agree with everyone (I mean, all of you) in the way they come to this new Realms. I agree it's not very original, but it's the best thing they could do. Maybe if some old empire of mages and artificers have brought them as slaves, the story should been more interesting. :D So, the Netherese as the new Thayans, the Sembians as the new Zhentarim, Baldur's Gate as the new Calimport and Waterdeep in one, Cormyr more powerful than before... I'm telling ye again... not as bad as I thought, but I am not going on with these new Realms. I'm going to take a look at what's pointing out and taking ideas to my own new homebrew Campaign World... your ideas are welcome.
Krash 01-12-08, 09:55 AM	Vassa is awful close to Impiltur, George - hope none of that nukes it for you. :( 4E FR is a fresh start for everyone, me included, and I have no idea what will happen to Impiltur in 4E. When thinking about this, the "fresh start" might see this particular FR fan fade into the background. My Realms "expertise" is unlikely to have any particular use in the 4E Realms so it's highly doubtful that I'll have any role to play in what unfolds this year or any year after that. Fair enough too. I've had a great ride - it's time for others to get behind the wheel and see what this baby can do. There's plenty out there with the talent - reading these boards on a regular basis clearly shows that. -- George Krashos
MerrikCale 01-12-08, 09:57 AM	I think it isn't as bad as I thought. Nope. Its much much worse then I could have imagined
MerrikCale 01-12-08, 09:58 AM	4E FR is a fresh start for everyone, me included, who the hell asked for a fresh start? Thats what I want to know
Lykor 01-12-08, 10:08 AM	The problem with dragonborn is many-fold: 1. They are half-orcs. Half-orcs were in 1e and 3e, and one of the more "iconic" monster races. Just look around at how many people want to play orcs, goblins, and kobolds: that is what half-orcs catered to. The reason no one played them in 3e wasn't that they were "unpopular" it was that their racial abilities sucked hard. 2. There is absolutely no basis for them in FR. None. If they existed at the beginning of the game, or in one corner of the unexplored Realms, maybe. But just randomly dropping them into an established setting? No, bad idea. 4. Why do we need another lizard race when we have: tren, lizardfolk, saurials, kuo-toa, kobolds, troglodytes, and more. What do they bring that an established race doesn't? 5. They are a blatant shout out to the dragon + katana fanboi demographic. With the new tieflings, all we need now are ~vampyres~, ninjas, and catgirls as core playable races. 6. If you can bring in one random race, you can bring in Changelings and Warforged. Enough said.
MerrikCale 01-12-08, 10:16 AM	It's highly doubtful. From what feel for the Realms I can gather from the article, I see no direct resemblance to Eberron or what the setting offers. I wasn't saying the Realms are turning into Eberron I'm saying gamers are gonna move to that setting with these horrible changes. Although there is an awful lot of "Mournlands" in this new setting. I guess there will be a Thunder Rail soon
Alediran 01-12-08, 10:27 AM	Although there is an awful lot of "Mournlands" in this new setting. I guess there will be a Thunder Rail soon Made by the Netheresse to have a safe passage to Sembia.
Dzwood 01-12-08, 10:35 AM	Ok so Novel-wise I think this could be prety cool.....Lots of new opertunities new stories. Heroes going places we have all been before and finding them changed in wacky new ways...in a novel that is cool. Game-wise...eh. Ohh and I think the Dragonborne ok! But if they really wanted to bring em in there was the Reain of Fire a race traped in a crypt or acient hidden city or a wizard trying to gate something in at the same time That Mystra died. Hell if u want to introduce a new race they could have put out a published adventure in 3e to atleast make us feel like we helped bring them to the realms
Suin Bahhar 01-12-08, 10:42 AM	So they did go with a 94 year jump. What an enormous gap. The void of events for our characters is staggering. The hunderd year jump does make the change viable without retcons. The article made me wince at moments (the collapse of a large part of the underdark) but gave hope too (Balders Gate and Waterdeep intact and important as ever). Unther smells now. Stinking dragonborn....
Mordakay of Thay 01-12-08, 11:10 AM	So how did they "incorporate" $th edition in Eberron?100 year timeline jump?I seriously doubt that ,pffff.
msatran 01-12-08, 11:16 AM	The thing that I hate most is "Sorry guys. Everything your PC's do has no effect! In fact, your old heroes were so unheroic that this apocalypse just happened and they could do nothing to stop it." This is like setting your Greyhawk campaign just after the rain of colorless fire. It doesn't work!
Suin Bahhar 01-12-08, 11:16 AM	So how did they "incorporate" $th edition in Eberron?100 year timeline jump?I seriously doubt that ,pffff.I heard they are incorporating it withour any timejumps (or a minor 2 year jump). The lucky bastards :(
msatran 01-12-08, 11:28 AM	Yeah, Eberron got what we wanted, and we got a**plowed.
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 11:37 AM	I have come up with at least three far more plausible ways to get the Dragonborn into the Realms, and I don't even like them. I will do an 'options' article as part of the Classic FR Initiative, which will be fan-based material set in an optional post-1385 world. Hopefully they will get the web-hosting part of Gleemax up and running soon, otherwise a lot of that will just end up spread amongst all the hundreds of fansites that will be springing up to do just that. Maybe someone can organize them, and each group/site can work on another region of the Plagued Realms. The setting changes are one thing, but I don't think the massive time-jump was neccessary, and will drive away most old-timers. Anyhow, sorry to see you were disappointed in the new Realms as well GK - its kind of obvious you aren't saying much out of politeness to those you have worked with. You have a deep knowledge of Realmslore - something sadly lacking amongst the 'new gaurd'. I never thought I'd see the day when reading became a 'down side' to playing D&D. :( I really don't know what to say at this point that hasn't been said already - at least a thousand times - accept that I think the fault lies more in the implementation then the material. If I could take the whole thing back a year and run things my way, I'd have old fans loving the new stuff. A French Chef I used to work with once told me "You can feed people ANYTHING, as long as you cover it with a really tasty sauce". Well WotC... your 'sauce' tasted like my Grandma's Geritol. :Yuck: Another famous saying in the Restaurant business - "Presentation is everything". The implementation of the 4e Deux Ex Machina was poorly handled, IMHO. Grandma (the one who takes the Geritol) always told me "take little bites, or you'll choke". She was right... I'm hackin' up a hairball right about now. :(
soulnova 01-12-08, 11:40 AM	With the new tieflings, all we need now are ~vampyres~, ninjas, and catgirls as core playable races. Dah, just wait for the PHB2 and the MM2 next year. New races and classes every year! AND THEY ARE ALL CANON!! WOOT!!11one </sarcasm> As someone who started playing in 3.5 FR, I read all through all the places I was interested, but I gave the history a good look at... especially with the gods. AFter that I started to research more and more... and finally started to get some 2ED lore... I need a Critical Update on Calimsham... any idea when could it be?
Rauric 01-12-08, 11:44 AM	The thing that I hate most is "Sorry guys. Everything your PC's do has no effect! In fact, your old heroes were so unheroic that this apocalypse just happened and they could do nothing to stop it." This is like setting your Greyhawk campaign just after the rain of colorless fire. It doesn't work! I am sorry you cannot ifgure out how to make this work.
Rauric 01-12-08, 11:45 AM	who the hell asked for a fresh start? Thats what I want to know Sales?
msatran 01-12-08, 11:50 AM	I am sorry you cannot ifgure out how to make this work. There's a difference between cannot and willingness to. This is just so offensive to me, Rauric. I COULD make it work, but you know, my world has half-orcs. Tieflings don't have big ass tails, and can wear magic helmets. The problem is that they've just told us that individual games don't matter, and they spent a year saying "Oh, it's the same game." Well, clearly, this is NOT the same game. Wizards EXPECTS everyone to start again from scratch. That's what they recommended. They just said "Don't worry. All your old characters suck! The new ones will be better! We promise you." I don't believe them.
Alediran 01-12-08, 11:57 AM	Guys and gals, I need you to start compiling everything about the realms for the Ye Clasic Realms compilation project (I made a thread).
soulnova 01-12-08, 11:59 AM	Wait... I have forgotten! Then what happened to all the gnome, aasimar, half-orc and half-elf population?? I have never played a gnome (or anyone in my group), but Im curious on how the heck are they going to explain there arent any gnomes thanks to the core rules??? bleh... forget it. Im not playing that madness.
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 12:34 PM	They all went into hiding until 1480 DR (2009 AD). ;)
xredmenacex 01-12-08, 12:43 PM	The article did mention a gnome ghetto in Baldur's Gate. :)
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 12:53 PM	Scene: An allyway in the new Baldur's gate... "Yo yo yo... listen up, listen up... I got what you need man... check it out... I got Starwheels, Matchlocks, Arqubusses...whatchu need, Humey? I got it all, good quality Gondite stuff... check it out." "HEY! is that a Halfing on our turf? Yo! You best get to steppin' Orcplugger... else I'll pop a cap in your scrawny, cheese lovin' butt..." "Damn, I hate when dem cheese junkies come 'round here..." Sorry, but the thought of Ghetto Gnomes is just TOO funny to pass up! :D
Aldareth 01-12-08, 01:13 PM	woow..a ocean of tears... i like it, maybe its just because my gaming buddys dont care much about continuity or canon
xredmenacex 01-12-08, 01:31 PM	Sorry, but the thought of Ghetto Gnomes is just TOO funny to pass up! :D Ha! Nice.
Rauric 01-12-08, 01:32 PM	Heh, or your just a normal RPG fan that does not obssess over a fantasy world or you have an imagination and can house rule anything in your game? Anyway it's the net. Drama happens. Why? Nobody is sitting there with their **** Hand at the ready. So people say whatever they choose. Anyway the only person in charge of the PCs and game is the DM, not a publisher of a game. Simple. That is the way since the 1e. Houserules and alternate variations of worlds is key in RPGs. If canon limits you that is your problem. Other folks have learned to ignore it and have fun.
Mr_Miscellany 01-12-08, 01:57 PM	So many storylines lost, to appease a minor group of vocal fools who never got the setting and won't buy anything to do with the Realms. :::::::::::::::::: I'm going to have lots of fun with this, one way or the other. Looking forward to reading more. And yeah, yeah, yeah....this will depress some people that are near-of-heart to the setting. I'm sorry you're hurt by this. But hey, if the Realms lives on, I'm happy.
MerrikCale 01-12-08, 02:00 PM	Sales? sales of what?
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 02:08 PM	Anyway the only person in charge of the PCs and game is the DM, not a publisher of a game. Simple. That is the way since the 1e. Houserules and alternate variations of worlds is key in RPGs. If canon limits you that is your problem. Other folks have learned to ignore it and have fun.Well said. :clap: Your games follow no ones rules but your own. If you love 3e so much, keep playing it. ;)
MerrikCale 01-12-08, 02:11 PM	Well said. :clap: Your games follow no ones rules but your own. If you love 3e so much, keep playing it. ;) I get that really I do But you will feel left behind. I enjoy buying supplements, reading through them and getting a flavor of the world
Mr_Miscellany 01-12-08, 02:20 PM	Well, if you run a game in the current year, then you still have 10 years of 3e Realms gaming before the Spellplague kicks in, so why even worry about it? And you can move the calender forward as slow as you want in your own game. ;) Just wanted to say he's exactly right. That's how I've been looking at it and planning my campaign around. The way I see it, I get to have the best of everything. I have plenty of time to encorporate stuff from 4E if I want in my game...I can advance the timeline as I see fit. The advent of 4E has done exactly nothing to take away my ability as a DM to create great Forgotten Realms gaming experiences for my players. People are upset, sure. But there's lots to look forward to. :D
Rauric 01-12-08, 02:22 PM	I understand that bit. If you hate the new stuff that much and won't buy into it then and won't buy the products then it will hurt a bit. People were complaining about the supplements just being rehashed bits of info from other past editions. I guess now they can do another Waterdeep or Baldurs Gate book and it have lots of new info. I knew people who wouldn't buy 3E books because they "had the 2E version already". Maybe this is to boost sales. Gamers can be rabid collectors of gaming products. Even if they do not play a setting anymore I think people will buy the new stuff simply because it is new.
MerrikCale 01-12-08, 02:25 PM	I understand that bit. If you hate the new stuff that much and won't buy into it then and won't buy the products then it will hurt a bit. People were complaining about the supplements just being rehashed bits of info from other past editions. I guess now they can do another Waterdeep or Baldurs Gate book and it have lots of new info. I knew people who wouldn't buy 3E books because they "had the 2E version already". Maybe this is to boost sales. Gamers can be rabid collectors of gaming products. Even if they do not play a setting anymore I think people will buy the new stuff simply because it is new. But there were plenty of areas that haven't had book in a while. The Dales, Vilhon Reach, even Kara-Tur You may be right about people buying stuff just because its new, but still playing in the 1300s
XHereticX 01-12-08, 02:28 PM	Wow, there is even more Richard Baker hate here then I can imagine.:eek: I admit, a lot of the changes are crap and a lot of great adventure and storytelling locales were ruined by the Spellplague (Haluraa, Thay, Chondath, Unther :weep: ). Yet, in the end it really depends on how they flesh out the changed lands and what kind of lore they put in the background. I am receptive to change, but it has to have the appropriate lore and background or else it would just become another playground for "Phat Lewz" and "Uberpoonas." I don't really know why people are so angered by the changes to Baldur's Gate though. It will be just like the Waterdeep and Calimsport of the middle. There is only good for Baldur's Gate with these changes, not evil. I don't like the idea of Sembia being a vassal state and Shade being the "evil empire" of Faerun, but the reality that Netheril has risen again and ancient and long forgotten powers are now and undeniable reality for the continent's inhabitants is quite nice. Imperial Cormyr is not much different from pre-imperial Cormyr, just a lot more expansive and powerful. Frankly, if they can put out enough lore to get me interested in the Plaguelands, the new Thay, and etc, I woudn't really mind at all. The history is still there, so you can tap into the legacy of the past in any way you want. The whole concept of "the past influences the present" has not died. I absolutly HATE the idea of a reduced pantheon, but if Baker and friends can give a detailed enough explanation, I will take it hard, but still take it. People, these ARE changes, many of them bad changes. But this is NOT the apocalypse of Faerun. We should make that judgement AFTER the FRCS comes out.
Rauric 01-12-08, 02:29 PM	But there were plenty of areas that haven't had book in a while. The Dales, Vilhon Reach, even Kara-Tur You may be right about people buying stuff just because its new, but still playing in the 1300s They might have been worried that those places are not palyed in as often so those books might not have sold as much ast the tried and true gaming regions.
Mr_Miscellany 01-12-08, 02:40 PM	Less wilderness than before? I find that hard to believe. After all, no new civilized realms were formed (except for the reconstruction of Netheril). Some were annexed, others simply replaced with an equivalent. However, we do know that plenty of formerly inhabited areas were made inhospitable by the Spellplague, which forced the survivors to congregate. If anything, this feeds the PoL concept beautifully, I'd say. I'd like to point out that an under-featured aspect of the Realms is the abundance of trade that goes on. The Realms is lined with trade routes that are frequented by merchant companies, mercenaries for hire in guarding such, and so on. By making the lands and environs more dangerous, inhospitable and, well, new (read: re-shaping of the landscape), this part of the Realms can (hopefully) find its voice once more in new products. Couple that with the PoL concept, and we get a marriage of old with new, for the betterment of the Realms.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 02:42 PM	I'd like to point out that an under-featured aspect of the Realms is the abundance of trade that goes on. The Realms is lined with trade routes that are frequented by merchant companies, mercenaries for hire in guarding such, and so on. By making the lands and environs more dangerous, inhospitable and, well, new (read: re-shaping of the landscape), this part of the Realms can (hopefully) find its voice once more in new products. Couple that with the PoL concept, and we get a marriage of old with new, for the betterment of the Realms. It depends, is there history and magic behind all the barren wilderness, or is it just a points-of-light reminescent wasteland filled with goblins and owlbears?;)
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 02:50 PM	As someone who came to the Forgotten Realms with 3rd edition, and then promptly left because of the fact that I didn't want to have to read three dozen books just to get the story, I like the new Realms. -You know, that's crazy. I didn't know that the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, the only Forgotten Realms-specific book needed to run a campaign in the setting, is more than one book. :rolleyes: I heard they are incorporating it withour any timejumps (or a minor 2 year jump). The lucky bastards :( -As far as I know, there isn't going to be any time changes in Eberron. This is because Eberron is a 'snap shot', of a specific time.
Mr_Miscellany 01-12-08, 02:56 PM	Before blaming Rich Baker for "destroying the Realms," you should consider that he's not making these decisions alone. Some of the people involved in this might have actually worked to bring the Realms to their current state. Spend any length of time here and you'll quickly learn how quoting facts to certain people that already know those same facts does exactly zero to dissuade them from ranting. With no WizO support on that front either....well let's just say we're stuck with 'em 'till they get bored and move on, or expire of natural causes.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 03:01 PM	Spend any length of time here and you'll quickly learn how quoting facts to certain people that already know those same facts does exactly zero to dissuade them from ranting. With no WizO support on that front either....well let's just say we're stuck with 'em 'till they get bored and move on, or expire of natural causes. Ironically, for a man who has nothing to lose, you seem to complain more than everyone.:rolleyes: As for the WizOs, there is a little something called the 1st Amendment that prevents them from acting, especially since they aren't breaking any of the CoC rules.
gomeztoo 01-12-08, 03:02 PM	I said it elsewhere, but I don't tihnk it is that bad. As Raruic alraedy said: most places are intact. If you played in the Heartlands than actually very little really changed (except for some poltical shifts and the realm of Netheril.) Sure, Chondath is gone, but, well, sorry to say, from what I know it was boring as heck. And Unther was already mostly gone, taken over by Mulhorand (no word on that - may still exist). The rift on the Shaar sounds interesting. You can imagine all kinds of stuff going bad with the Great Rift etc.. Thay is still around, though I'm not sure about Halruaa. There are things I would have done differently, but I'm not a designer. They likely had good reasons to, say, not embed the dragonborn in the Realms lore but just pull them from somewhere else. Anyway, I think people are rather negative here. I understand the discontent, and I personally do not like the implication that you need a cataclysm every ten years, but as far as I can see the destruction is far less than I initially thought.
Mr_Miscellany 01-12-08, 03:21 PM	It's not a blank slate, Netheril is older than the old. If you want to use them you need 1st, 2nd and 3rd material. Erm...no, no and no. With close to a hundred years under its belt, anything relevant a DM will need to know about the new Empire of Netheril will already be featured in the 4E FRCG. For his or her enjoyment, a DM could read up on the older stuff, which is a fine excercise all by itself; informative for building fluff-filled adventures and so on. It's just not necessary for gaming in 4E FR. How's that for a blank slate ah? Decades of backstory will still affect the realms 4ed. They WILL ALWAYS DO. I thought the big anti-4E complaint was the destruction of all that came before? So you mean that the changing of magic and the invironment won't cause the absolute deletion of pre 4E Realmslore?
Mr_Miscellany 01-12-08, 03:23 PM	Ironically, for a man who has nothing to lose, you seem to complain more than everyone.:rolleyes: Complaining about the complainers, mind. Not necessarily about 4E. As for the WizOs, there is a little something called the 1st Amendment ... That has exactly ZERO influence, effect or power on this corporate run, privately owned website. WotC makes the rules. Not the Consitution of the United States.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 03:27 PM	Complaining about the complainers, mind. Not necessarily about 4E. That has exactly ZERO influence, effect or power on this corporate run, privately owned website. WotC makes the rules. Not the Consitution of the United States. I think you missed the 2nd part of my statement there;) Whining is whining, one way or another. You defeat your own reasoning by complaining more than the complaining you are supposedly against.
GreenKnight 01-12-08, 03:29 PM	Then what happened to all the gnome, aasimar, half-orc and half-elf population?? Nothing happened. Half-Elves still exist, and will likely appear in the first PHB. Half-Orcs still exist, and according to Rich Baker, will probably be released soon after 4E on D&DI. Gnomes still exist and are in the Monster Manual, and will be one of the monsters that have a PC write-up, so you'll be able to play a Gnome right from the launch of 4E. They'll get a bigger write-up in the PHBII. Aasimar still exist, with the one change that they've been renamed to Celestials.
Faraer 01-12-08, 03:30 PM	Sure, Chondath is gone, but, well, sorry to say, from what I know it was boring as heck.What have you read about it?There are things I would have done differently, but I'm not a designer. They likely had good reasons to, say, not embed the dragonborn in the Realms lore but just pull them from somewhere else.In the early 2000s I gave Wizards designers the benefit of the doubt: I assumed that a lot of changes which didn't seem to fit would make sense in time, and had been reasonably well thought through. I was wrong: in most cases it turned out there was no more to them. It would be irrational to trust the same people, plus new ones who haven't worked in the setting before, now.I understand the discontent, and I personally do not like the implication that you need a cataclysm every ten years, but as far as I can see the destruction is far less than I initially thought.It's not the destruction that bothers me, but the thinking behind it: the fact that the 15th-century Realms is written to a whole new set of design philosophies, and the 14th-century Realms won't be published any more.
gomeztoo 01-12-08, 03:40 PM	What have you read about it? Admittedly, not much beyond the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and what I know of Jaamdath from GHotR. But that did not struck me as interesting, and if that is not achieved by a campaign setting book, then how interesting is it, really? Several city states bickering on trade routes? Been here, done that. I may, of course, be missing out on stuff that makes this region wildly interesting, but there were regions in the FRCS that had only one paragraph that appeared more interesting than Chondath. So, for me, it is actually an improvement.
Faraer 01-12-08, 03:50 PM	For me, it's not broad-strokes high-conflict situations as given in summary in Rich's article that make a place interesting. By themselves, those are gimmicks; they only become interesting or valuable in execution. It's like players who think playing weird races and prestige classes will make their characters memorable. My favourite place to play in is the Dales, which might well sound boring in a paragraph-long summary. And as with the god cull, the problem is that different people like different things. As far as I can see, the advantage to having new places like Tymanther overwrite places like Unther -- as with the Moonshaes and Anchorome, decades ago -- rather than being in other worlds or continents joined by gates is at much the same trivial level as reshaping the Faerûn map for no better reason than to fit more land on the poster. (It reminds me of the joke of merging Toril and Oerth, or my plan aged seven or so to incorporate Middle-earth, the Hyborian Age and a couple of other fantasy settings I liked on the same globe.) To repeat, though, these replacements in and of themselves aren't my main concern about what's going on here.
Mr_Miscellany 01-12-08, 03:59 PM	I think you missed the 2nd part of my statement there;) ...not at all. I've just thought it through more than you have. You defeat your own reasoning by complaining more than the complaining you are supposedly against. Hardly. When you can't reason with 'people'...the only option left is to shout them down. Repeatedly.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 04:06 PM	...not at all. I've just thought it through more than you have. Hardly. When you can't reason with 'people'...the only option left is to shout them down. Repeatedly. So your logic is that when you cannot defeat evil, you use their own evil ways for your purposes just for the end result of victory. Sounds extremely Machevialian. Assuming to know more about a statement than its creator is quite foolish. Believe me, I know what I am saying, and you don't. I am not completly against the changes, but they way you approach this subject seemingly as a todie to WoTC who gives no criticism, only praise, makes me sick to my stomach.
gomeztoo 01-12-08, 04:14 PM	To repeat, though, these replacements in and of themselves aren't my main concern about what's going on here. Well, the question then is: what ARE the design philosophies and in what way is it different? And in what way is that bad?
Faraer 01-12-08, 04:26 PM	I've discussed them at some length over the years: they're my main interest in discussing the Realms. I should probably try to summarize them -- it would be a challenging piece of literary analysis, much more difficult than discussing Realmslore -- and how the new ones seem to differ, a subject that would be a lot more speculative, even though a lot of the existing statements and implications are fairly clear. But I tried to very briefly answer a similar question here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9519). It's bad because I think the integrity of settings' and creators' underlying workings and worldviews should be respected and they're what I find valuable about secondary worlds. I wouldn't want to read about a Middle-earth written as sword and sorcery or espousing atheism (I say this as, from certain points of view, an atheist) in place of the original. I think that past a certain point changes to the spirit of the Realms would violate the spirit of Ed's agreement with TSR (I'm not saying that point's been reached). This is clear enough, isn't it? If some like different things about the Realms than I do, they're welcome to.
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 04:32 PM	It's bad because I think the integrity of settings' and creators' underlying workings and worldviews should be respected and are what I find valuable about secondary worlds. I think that past a certain point changes to the spirit of the Realms would violate the spirit of Ed's agreement with TSR (I'm not saying that point's been reached). -In the end, he did sell the rights of the setting to TSR, and by proxy, WotC. That they do keep him in their employ, and consult with him at times, is a very nice thing, but they technically don't even need to do that. They could pull a "Gygax", and completely part ways with Ed all together, and not feel bad at all. At the end of the day, it (the Forgotten Realms) is theirs.
Faraer 01-12-08, 04:33 PM	They could do that legally. I think they should feel bad about it. I also think commercially they'd be giving up their strongest creative resource, and be extremely naive to think it could be replaced by any amount of committee work.
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 04:35 PM	-This is a money making business, after all. There is no such thing as "feeling bad".
Tashanen 01-12-08, 04:37 PM	Now that I think about it - the Realms have been traveling down a path I haven't liked for quite a while. I think it started with the retcon of Synnoria being still tied to Evermeet - when one of my original players chose to be a Llewyrr precisely because at the time - they were in no way connected to Evermeet. Over the years I've had many elves in my campaigns and even played a few in the campaigns of others, but as a group the Llewyrr have always been our favorites (what can I say - Evermeet rubs us the wrong way). So as nifty as the most recent article on the Moonshae Isles is.... its not for me. As far as the 'happenings' in the Unther/Mulhorand region... our current game is set there (well actually across the whole region Unther/Mulhorand/Chessenta/Aglarond), so as Bender would say, "these changes to the 'little used portions of the realms' can bite my shiny metal ***."
Faraer 01-12-08, 04:38 PM	-This is a money making business, after all. There is no such thing as "feeling bad".Not at the level of corporations and boards, but the individual designers involved certainly have feelings, enthusiasms, reservations, and so on. I wouldn't be interested in dialogue with them if they didn't.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 04:43 PM	Not at the level of corporations and boards, but the individual designers involved certainly have feelings, enthusiasms, reservations, and so on. I wouldn't be interested in dialogue with them if they didn't. Well, when those individuals feelings conflict with those of the company, they generally leave. Those who are in this project right now obviously have no regrets. This is shown in their posts, their blogs, and their activity in WoTC.
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 04:43 PM	-Often times, in the end, what the individual designers want or don't want doesn't matter. If your boss, who was told by his boss, who was told by his boss, and so on and so forth, tells you to do something you don't necessarily like, you can either go along with it, or not, and risk being reprimanded, fired, etc. If the "Director of Extraneous Personelle" recieves a memo that his boss, the "President of Personelle" doesn't want Mr. X to be part of any future designs, for whatever reason, what can he do? -Personally, if WotC decided to complete cut ties with Ed, now, I'd be disappointed. In the past, if they did, I'd be less disappointed, as there would be less precident working with him.
Marcus Majarra 01-12-08, 05:16 PM	This is because Eberron is a 'snap shot', of a specific time. Now this is the first statement that strikes me as complete true I've read on this board about Eberron. The entire setting is based on this notion. Virtually all the sourcebooks are riddled with plothooks, theories, sites, and whatnot based on the idea that the setting isn't evolving chronologically. It's one of the important differences between Eberron and FR. By themselves, those are gimmicks; they only become interesting or valuable in execution. A very enlightened statement. This is why I try to remain optimistic about the upcoming changes and look at the for the good they can bring over what they can possibly undo, if they undo anything at all. In the end, I won't really be certain about whether I like the new Realms or not until the new Realms hit the bookstores/Amazon. It's bad because I think the integrity of settings' and creators' underlying workings and worldviews should be respected and they're what I find valuable about secondary worlds. I wouldn't want to read about a Middle-earth written as sword and sorcery or espousing atheism (I say this as, from certain points of view, an atheist) in place of the original. I think that past a certain point changes to the spirit of the Realms would violate the spirit of Ed's agreement with TSR (I'm not saying that point's been reached). This is clear enough, isn't it? If some like different things about the Realms than I do, they're welcome to. Unfortunately, this is the problem with evolution, no matter where you find it. Take Earth, for example. I very much doubt you'd get the same feel and spirit four our planet now as you would've one century ago. And yet, we do not feel unfamiliar with our world or its history. While we acknowledge what has been going on in the past and have sought to understand it, we're not bound by what has been. The Realms are merely evolving too. I also think commercially they'd be giving up their strongest creative resource, and be extremely naive to think it could be replaced by any amount of committee work. Similarly, I think it would be naive to assume that Ed Greenwood is their strongest creative resource on account of being the first to get his hands on it. It's quite possible that while some people can come up with great ideas, others might be better at improving over existing ideas. Of course, I very much welcome Ed Greenwood's contribution to the Realms in all its incarnations.
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 05:20 PM	Now this is the first statement that strikes me as complete true I've read on this board about Eberron. -I'm awesome like that. :cool:
msatran 01-12-08, 05:24 PM	What have you read about it?In the early 2000s I gave Wizards designers the benefit of the doubt: I assumed that a lot of changes which didn't seem to fit would make sense in time, and had been reasonably well thought through. I was wrong: in most cases it turned out there was no more to them. It would be irrational to trust the same people, plus new ones who haven't worked in the setting before, now.It's not the destruction that bothers me, but the thinking behind it: the fact that the 15th-century Realms is written to a whole new set of design philosophies, and the 14th-century Realms won't be published any more. Yes! This is exactly what I am bothered by. The idea that if people didn't like the first cosmic smash-em up, the only thing that can fix it is a second one. It's like they don't pay attention to the subtle clues. I mean, really, except for NJFRCC, after June 6, I really don't have a reason to come to the Wizards boards anymore. I thought the goal of these forums was to bring the community together, not kick us in the 'nads.
Faraer 01-12-08, 05:38 PM	This is why I try to remain optimistic about the upcoming changes and look at the for the good they can bring over what they can possibly undo, if they undo anything at all. In the end, I won't really be certain about whether I like the new Realms or not until the new Realms hit the bookstores/Amazon.Me too. But I know that I don't like the fact that the 14th-century Realms won't be published any more; or that the new setting is being explicitly designed to diminish the value of Realmslore, and straightforwardly opposes the project of detailed, continuous, involved world-building that is the Realms' hallmark.Unfortunately, this is the problem with evolution, no matter where you find it. Take Earth, for example. I very much doubt you'd get the same feel and spirit four our planet now as you would've one century ago. . . . The Realms are merely evolving too.The changes we're talking about were driven in large part by considerations outside the Realms: conformity with 4E rules, misconceptions about the setting, a wish to simplify it for new players and designers. The Realms isn't changing, it's being changed from without. Evolution is a spontaneous process taking place in a system -- it's misleading to apply that buzzword, with its connotations of inevitable progress, to conscious human decisions.Similarly, I think it would be naive to assume that Ed Greenwood is their strongest creative resource on account of being the first to get his hands on it.That's not why. I'm delighted when I find another game designer or world-builder with the creative genius of an Ed Greenwood, a Gary Gygax, a Greg Stafford or a Robin Laws. As of now, Wizards doesn't have access to anyone who's worked on the Realms with anything like the imaginative breadth, depth, cohesion and sheer boundless invention seen in Ed's writings, including his almost unprecedented free contributions at Candlekeep.com (which amount to at least half a million words). If a new writer came to know the Realms, to be able to tour it in his or her head and effortlessly come up with seamless new lore, characters and plots, as well as Ed can after 40 years imagining it, I'd be delighted and amazed.It's quite possible that while some people can come up with great ideas, others might be better at improving over existing ideas.Like the talk of evolution, I don't think it even parses to talk about improving someone else's creative vision. I think the designer hype about improving things is either deluded or insincere. There is no single objective, external 'better'; fantasy worlds don't approach perfection with iterative revisionings; what you can do is make a world that works better for particular purposes. In this case, the new Realms is trying to achieve substantially different aims from Ed's, and I expect that it will.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 05:48 PM	A very enlightened statement. This is why I try to remain optimistic about the upcoming changes and look at the for the good they can bring over what they can possibly undo, if they undo anything at all. In the end, I won't really be certain about whether I like the new Realms or not until the new Realms hit the bookstores/Amazon. Unfortunately, this is the problem with evolution, no matter where you find it. Take Earth, for example. I very much doubt you'd get the same feel and spirit four our planet now as you would've one century ago. And yet, we do not feel unfamiliar with our world or its history. While we acknowledge what has been going on in the past and have sought to understand it, we're not bound by what has been. The Realms are merely evolving too. I try to be similar. But sometimes there are certain changes that you can't help but to be fatalistic about. The thing about Faerun is that it was created not to be dynamic or everchanging like Earth is. Its like all the ancient cultures of Earth from differing times with magic preserved on another planet. Sure specific civilizations rise and fall, but the overall technology, feel, level of civilization, and ideas remain roughly consistant. I just feel that some of these changes disrupt this feeling.
Alediran 01-12-08, 06:44 PM	Erm...no, no and no. With close to a hundred years under its belt, anything relevant a DM will need to know about the new Empire of Netheril will already be featured in the 4E FRCG. For his or her enjoyment, a DM could read up on the older stuff, which is a fine excercise all by itself; informative for building fluff-filled adventures and so on. It's just not necessary for gaming in 4E FR. It will be because they'll never know from where they come and how they became like that. I thought the big anti-4E complaint was the destruction of all that came before? They didn't destroyed the present (and it's 1375 DR), they can't because it's already there. What they did was destroy the future. So you mean that the changing of magic and the invironment won't cause the absolute deletion of pre 4E Realmslore? We never said that. Gasp! Could there be hope?!? Could things really be OK after all? They won't be, because they took the future that was supposed to be for us, the TRUE (and never you think otherwise) Realms Loremasters, nobody who thinks that the changes are logical can have that title.
Raelan_Harpell 01-12-08, 06:48 PM	Wow...it's been a very, very long time since I've posted on these boards. I came back to give them a quick look-through for the first time in ages, and I found this thread, checked out the link, then just stared at my computer screen in disgust. As someone who has been playing in the Realms for over a decade and has most of the non-adventure FR accessories published between then and now, I can only liken the changes to the Realms in 4E to one thing: the NGE of a certain MMO that shall not be mentioned.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 07:12 PM	Wow...it's been a very, very long time since I've posted on these boards. I came back to give them a quick look-through for the first time in ages, and I found this thread, checked out the link, then just stared at my computer screen in disgust. As someone who has been playing in the Realms for over a decade and has most of the non-adventure FR accessories published between then and now, I can only liken the changes to the Realms in 4E to one thing: the NGE of a certain MMO that shall not be mentioned. You mean this MMO? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLlCfC0bu6Q&feature=related
Mordakay of Thay 01-12-08, 07:46 PM	I dunno where i heard this exactly,plz enlighten me if it's true.Will there be DPS (damagepersecond) in 4th ed?
GreenKnight 01-12-08, 07:49 PM	I dunno where i heard this exactly,plz enlighten me if it's true.Will there be DPS (damagepersecond) in 4th ed? ...Yes.
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 07:55 PM	The Toyota one is soooo much worse. :rolleyes:
Mordakay of Thay 01-12-08, 07:55 PM	Aww hells no.......DAMN YOU MR. T,you 2?
XHereticX 01-12-08, 07:56 PM	The Toyota one is soooo much worse. :rolleyes: That one is just messed up.
Banpai 01-12-08, 08:04 PM	You mean this MMO? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLlCfC0bu6Q&feature=related I don´t buy it, all these changes happen for several reasons: -3rd Edition had its Problems and so WotC wanted to produce a better D&D experience so they started to make 4th Edition. After a certan point they decided that the weave didn´t work for them anymore (all these at will and per encounter powers ...) so it had to go, and since Mystra essentially was the weave ...well you know what happened.... -the 100 year time jump was necessary so they could start at a point that allowed them make addiational changes, for example the dragonborn. You could of course just say all these lizards just appeared yesterday when Mystra died , but that would make it pretty much impossible for a player to play one. -Players have been complaing for several years now, and while I didn´t agree with them, all these "Elminster/the Chosen/Mystra must die!" threads showed WotC that while it most likely wasn´t a real problem, people still conceived that these elements of the game ruined playing FR for them. -Compaired to Eberron, FR can be actually far more difficult to DM, I know it doesn´t have to be but Faerun can be pretty intimidating if you look at the hundreds of books availabel. It apparently can give some DMs the illusion that the HAVE to have read all these sources to run a proper game, and that makes it harder to sell. Now it´s unfair to compare Eberron (which isn´t really much more than a snapshot- it pretty much just gives you some nice backround some adventure seeds and sends the players into adventure) and FR (a setting that feels alive for so many good reasons, a setting we have come to love decades) but they are more or less competing for the favour (and money) of new D&D players. -And maybe the biggest reason may be their marketing reasearch, if it tells the developers that Players want to play something like half-dragons - the Designers will give them exactly that. If reasearch shows them that oldschool FR fans can´t support their sales alone and don´t draw enough new players into the realms they had to do something to attract more players .... Well let´s not give up hope just yet, Countdown to the Realms did´t actually make that many changes most are just a bit shocked that the 100 year jump is confirmed - many still hoped for only 10 years. Maybe this way is better only time can tell ;)
Friendlyfish 01-12-08, 08:04 PM	I would just like to chime in and say that I am actually enjoying the changes to the Realms. I've been a fan of the Realms since the Moonshae books way back when I was a kid. I like the coming of the Aboleths (since I think Aboleths are cool); I like doing away with the tired old political standoffs such as Thay and the Zhentarim. A bit of radical change can only enrich history and get some new blood flowing into this old mummy. I mean, even with all these Realms-shaking events happening, how much SUBSTANTIAL change has there been in the Realms in the last 10 years? Even with a changeover of Gods in the Avatar crisis and the coming of Shade, it's not really that different overall. In defiance of reality, the Realms seem disturbingly static. Think about in our own "Real World". How much change has come in the last 100 years? Now compare that with Faerun. Weird, huh? The Realms...they don't seem to change! I must admit that I find the prevailing attitudes of the loremongers on these forums more than a bit grognardish. Just because you've spent so much time keeping track of Realms minutiae doesn't mean that the Realms are going to stay preserved in amber, just for you, for ALL TIME. Change can be for the better. If you don't like it, well, opinions are like...
Raelan 01-12-08, 08:40 PM	You mean this MMO? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLlCfC0bu6Q&feature=related Actually, I meant the "New Game Enhancements" for Star Wars: Galaxies. You know, the expansion that made about 90% of their player base quit in disgust? Basically, they took the heart of the game, which was an incredibly complex and adaptable system of classes, skills, and class combinations and tried to WoW-ify it. They reduced the original 32 classes to just 9, forced players to choose only one class, and changed the combat system from a skill and strategy-based system to a first-person shooter style. The similarity, here, is that the existing flavor, the feel, and the mechanics of the game were simply cast aside for something new and "better". This is the exact same thing that is happening to the Realms with 4E. Instead of simply taking the existing Realms and tweaking them a bit, they've completely cast aside the existing setting, lore, flavor, and feel of Toril for something new. You would think that the game industry in general, whether video-game or tabletop, would've learned something from the...erm...cluster-funk that was the NGE, but it seems that this is not the case.
Storm_Silverhand 01-12-08, 08:40 PM	Heya, I read the article. There were some (very few) things that made me laugh out loud and wonder how they were going to work (from a pretty positive point of view, I might add), but for the most part, and taken with everything that's come before about 4e Realms, I don't see any point to buying the books. My Realms is going to diverge wildly from the new Realms. This is my main concern. If my Realms can diverge so wildly as to make the new FRCG and other books useless to me, then it will probably do the same for others. If enough people decide not to buy into the new Realms, we may as well kiss them goodbye... At least as far as publication goes. That is my fear. Other than that, I'm not going to go into an in depth analysis - what's the point? All in all, this was a lousy birthday present, WotC.
Uzzy 01-12-08, 08:45 PM	I've been reading that, and I'm curious about how all these new big empires that are springing up are being taken by the Harpers. I mean, they work to keep empires small. I do wonder what, if anything, happened to them.
XHereticX 01-12-08, 08:47 PM	I've been reading that, and I'm curious about how all these new big empires that are springing up are being taken by the Harpers. I mean, they work to keep empires small. I do wonder what, if anything, happened to them. Probably got annihilated in the Spellplague, like so many other things in the Realms.:rolleyes: If they are still around, they will most likely be a disorganized and leaderless organization that's a shadow of its former self.
Thorkell 01-12-08, 09:22 PM	Interesting, but most of these aren't true at all. I don´t buy it, all these changes happen for several reasons: -3rd Edition had its Problems and so WotC wanted to produce a better D&D experience so they started to make 4th Edition. After a certan point they decided that the weave didn´t work for them anymore (all these at will and per encounter powers ...) so it had to go, and since Mystra essentially was the weave ...well you know what happened.... Fluff doesn't dictate rules, so fluff doesn't need to be changed to justify rules changes. The fallacy they are operating under says otherwise, but it is simply wrong. Changing spellcasting rules doesn't require blowing up half the continent, or jumping 100 years. Nothing is going to implode if spellcasting in your on-going campaign works differently today than yesterday. Of course, given their suggestion that you start a new campaign anyway, it isn't going to impact anything at all. Any more than the change away from infravision makes early Drizzit the Wonder Drow books unreadable. -the 100 year time jump was necessary so they could start at a point that allowed them make addiational changes, for example the dragonborn. You could of course just say all these lizards just appeared yesterday when Mystra died , but that would make it pretty much impossible for a player to play one. Or maybe they were living in an isolated area all along. Again, established places don't have to be obliterated to make room for them. -Players have been complaing for several years now, and while I didn´t agree with them, all these "Elminster/the Chosen/Mystra must die!" threads showed WotC that while it most likely wasn´t a real problem, people still conceived that these elements of the game ruined playing FR for them. And yet, El and the Driizit are still there. And at this point, Mystra dying, yet again, is almost insignificant. She does it every couple centuries anyway. So this point doesn't seem to have anything to do with why they are doing it. -Compaired to Eberron, FR can be actually far more difficult to DM, I know it doesn´t have to be but Faerun can be pretty intimidating if you look at the hundreds of books availabel. It apparently can give some DMs the illusion that the HAVE to have read all these sources to run a proper game, and that makes it harder to sell. Book consolidation? Maybe. But all those books and history are still there. They're slightly less directly relevant, but all that stuff is still lurking like a specter, just out of sight, exactly the same as, well, now. Now it´s unfair to compare Eberron (which isn´t really much more than a snapshot- it pretty much just gives you some nice backround some adventure seeds and sends the players into adventure) and FR (a setting that feels alive for so many good reasons, a setting we have come to love decades) but they are more or less competing for the favour (and money) of new D&D players. I guess. FR started pretty much the same way, however. -And maybe the biggest reason may be their marketing reasearch, if it tells the developers that Players want to play something like half-dragons - the Designers will give them exactly that. If reasearch shows them that oldschool FR fans can´t support their sales alone and don´t draw enough new players into the realms they had to do something to attract more players .... If their research shows this, they should actually show it off, and demonstrate they aren't just pulling this garbage out of the air. And of course, playing dragons or whatever, doesn't mean that blowing up the setting is the approach they should take.
Banpai 01-12-08, 10:17 PM	Interesting, but most of these aren't true at all. Fluff doesn't dictate rules, so fluff doesn't need to be changed to justify rules changes. The fallacy they are operating under says otherwise, but it is simply wrong. Changing spellcasting rules doesn't require blowing up half the continent, or jumping 100 years. Nothing is going to implode if spellcasting in your on-going campaign works differently today than yesterday. Of course, given their suggestion that you start a new campaign anyway, it isn't going to impact anything at all. Any more than the change away from infravision makes early Drizzit the Wonder Drow books unreadable. Or maybe they were living in an isolated area all along. Again, established places don't have to be obliterated to make room for them. And yet, El and the Driizit are still there. And at this point, Mystra dying, yet again, is almost insignificant. She does it every couple centuries anyway. So this point doesn't seem to have anything to do with why they are doing it. Book consolidation? Maybe. But all those books and history are still there. They're slightly less directly relevant, but all that stuff is still lurking like a specter, just out of sight, exactly the same as, well, now. I guess. FR started pretty much the same way, however. If their research shows this, they should actually show it off, and demonstrate they aren't just pulling this garbage out of the air. And of course, playing dragons or whatever, doesn't mean that blowing up the setting is the approach they should take. 1.Yes they didn´t have to do all that they could have choosen to retcon it saying that the weave still exists it´s no longer the case that you pray/meditate/relax once per day to charge up, but now you are "plugged in" all the time. But they decided to go for 10 years of chaos, well I am really not a big fan of apocalyptic rpgs so I wouldn´t really enjoy to rp in this time? On the other hand I will really miss many NPCs (especially Mirt :weep: ) so I would have preferred a retcon. 2.As much as I love the realms I have to admit that me and Unther never really warmed up so I can´t really say I feel the loss. And saying they were always there in some remote place, it might work for races that are actually intended to be rare (like saurians (sp?) can´t really remember the race Finder freed) but they will be a PHB race now and so they should be more present. It was easy to add Goliaths to FR since they live in the mountains and rarely go adventuring, tieflings are already in FR and well FR already had a nice demon summoning empire so you could even use the "new" origin. And let´s not forget their origin is not yet fully clear, they might just as well from Unthers futue :P 3.Ok you got me there El will survive this, but losing his goddess, girlfirend and adopted daughters (or see somthing very bad happen to them) might change the poor onld man. Drizzt sells far to many books (and it even happens that I came to FR thanks to his books ) and there are few better life insurances out there. Poor Mystra dying again, well it is a rather blunt way to make people like damn Cyric but the shock hit me when GHotR came out I am mostly over it and there is always the chance that some of the sisters step up (somehow like Ressurection) to take her place. 4. Well the designers and several posters said that some people perceive this as a problem, and while it does not concern me personally, if people don´t play bechause of this someone has to do something. 5.Well Eberron was created in one piece, FR was slowly created by Ed one bit at a time.... 6.Wizards paid for this research, it´s unlikely that they would give it away, especially since the have no reason to justify their actions. Well we will see in the next preview what happens to the choosen, if the can handle it delicately they might just win back some fans and help the undecided to give the new realms the benefit of the doubt.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 10:25 PM	Three reasons: 1. You seem both reasonable and well versed in Realmslore 2. You can have an appreciation for the concept behind the new Baldur's Gate 3. Given #1 and #2, but your dislike that Baldur's Gate be used as a framework for this concept, I'm interested in knowing how you would've introduced a massive hub of Spellplague refugees in the new Realms. It all comes down to the fact that I don't like the idea of the Spellplague to begin with, and don't plan to use it in the Realms. So, I wouldn't have the problem of wondering what to do with displaced Spellplague refugees. It really isn't much more complicated than that. Yes, I appreciate the concept of a city that changes because of an influx of immigrants (for whatever reason), but that doesn't mean I *have* to like what's being done to places in the Realms that I liked just the way they were. And so, I don't plan to incorporate the changes into my Realms, but at the same time I'm still going to express my thoughts (and yes, feelings) on the matter, since that's the whole point of this thread. Does that answer satisfy?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 10:31 PM	I wonder if it would've gone over better if WotC started introducing the changes in the novels FIRST, then implemented 4e, as people would at least consider it canon to SOME degree? I'm not so sure of that. Consider the reactions to the Lady Penitent novels.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 10:37 PM	Don't worry; no harm, no foul. If I had to take offense to anything, it would be to the more blind claims that they're bringing the Realms closer to Eberron... For my part, I didn't make a "claim" so much as an observation. There's no reason for you to be "offended" by that. Less wilderness than before? I find that hard to believe. After all, no new civilized realms were formed (except for the reconstruction of Netheril)... It hasn't been confirmed that "no new civilized realms were formed" other than Netheril. We haven't seen the whole map yet.
Dark Wizard 01-12-08, 10:48 PM	Vaasa is under the rule of a warlock or group of warlocks.
msatran 01-12-08, 10:59 PM	This is the most disgusting time kludge ever. A rain of anvils from space, obliterating WOTC's headquarters, are not enough karma for these people.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 11:10 PM	Sure, Chondath is gone, but, well, sorry to say, from what I know it was boring as heck. From what you know? That's just an opinion being stated as if it were a fact. No area of the Realms is "boring" unless you allow it to be.
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 11:12 PM	All in all, this was a lousy birthday present, WotC. -Happy Birthday. :gift: -Now, what's this Damage per Second I saw?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 11:14 PM	With close to a hundred years under its belt, anything relevant a DM will need to know about the new Empire of Netheril will already be featured in the 4E FRCG. For his or her enjoyment, a DM could read up on the older stuff, which is a fine excercise all by itself; informative for building fluff-filled adventures and so on. It's just not necessary for gaming in 4E FR. Right, but I fail to see how that is so different from before. All that was supposed to be needed for the 3E Realms was the FRCS, and the core rule books. It's understandable that people feel they need to know more details than that, but isn't that self-imposed? I think it is, just like the need for some people to stick with what's canon is self-imposed.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 11:21 PM	For me, it's not broad-strokes high-conflict situations as given in summary in Rich's article that make a place interesting. By themselves, those are gimmicks; they only become interesting or valuable in execution. It's like players who think playing weird races and prestige classes will make their characters memorable. My favourite place to play in is the Dales, which might well sound boring in a paragraph-long summary. I just want to let everyone know that I feel the same way.:)
Devin Lightshadow 01-12-08, 11:25 PM	I read the article last night and nearly puked. I've been running and playing campaigns in the Realms since the old Grey Box set (and I still use it as a significant reference) and while the Time of Troubles was a major shake up, it din't significantly change the feel of the Realms. This crap significantly changes the feel of the Realms. It has been turned into a video game. It is pure and utter garbage, and Rich Baker is making a complete and utter mess of everything. My FR games will not use this storyline (I already ignore the return of the Shades, the schism of the Harpers and the return of the elves to Cormanthor). I'll be forging my own "future history" for the Forgotten Realms seperate from anything WotC does. I hope this whole thing blows up in their face, though I don't think it will. It will most likely be a bestseller for them no matter how much garbage it is, because what it comes down to is WotC and Rich Baker don't really care whether people actually like what they produce, they just care if it sells (which is how a company should operate actually). I hope Candlekeep.com stays around and keeps making Realms stuff available for all of us who choose not to take the Spellplague route...
Devin Lightshadow 01-12-08, 11:29 PM	It's understandable that people feel they need to know more details than that, but isn't that self-imposed? I think it is, just like the need for some people to stick with what's canon is self-imposed. I agree! That's one of the things that's always flabbergasted me. The need to feel that you know each book, supplement, web enhancement and so on in and out. I own nearly every FR product (novels not included) that's been published, and I don't know them by heart. Doesn't keep me from running games that I and my players find enjoyable. If I later find I've contradicted 'canon'... Oh well! It's my Realms. As for the novels, I've read very few of them and almost none of them have any effect on my games. Most of them aren't 'official' in my version of the Realms anyway.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 11:32 PM	In defiance of reality, the Realms seem disturbingly static. Think about in our own "Real World". How much change has come in the last 100 years? Now compare that with Faerun. Weird, huh? The Realms...they don't seem to change! Making fantasy worlds "realistic" is overrated.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 11:36 PM	I'll be forging my own "future history" for the Forgotten Realms seperate from anything WotC does. Me too!:)
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 11:39 PM	You know whats bothering me the most (ATM)? How the basic premise makes NO sense. Hear me out - they named the Spellplague, and TRICKED us all into thinking it was a thing. What, exactly, is the definition of "The Spellplague"? Its certainly NOT a disease, or even a magical illness, so the word 'plague' is a misnomer. What the Spellplague IS is a 'poetic' descriptor for a period of time (not a tangible 'thing') when Mystra was killed, and the Weave disappeared. It is also used to describe the SYMPTOMS of that event. Basically, its like saying "What is the Hundred Years War?" The Spellplague, simply put, is a long period of time when magic became unpredictable, and casters went insane, and the world was thrown into turmoil. So "The Spellplague" is not really a THING at all - it is a concept... an idea... a descriptor. So HOW THE HELL does an idea "flow around" places with a strong magical field in place? :confused: If the Spellplague WAS something tangible, like a huge, amorpheus field of null-magic, then that description is plausible. But its not. :bored: The Spellplague is 'an event', and 'events' do not flow around stuff. In fact, if it's anything, the Spellplague would best be described as a lack of magic. Once again, the 'lack of' anything can't flow; a thing can flow, not the lack of it. So the Weave collapses, and magic goes away, and this big wall of 'nothing' spreads across the world, taking down spellcasters and minor magics in its path. Yet for some strange reason, this 'thing'... this 'lack of' magic, flows around powerful magic? Maybe its just poor writing, I don't know, by the wording makes no sense. I would have said that the powerful magical fields (Mythals, Mythalars, Mantles, etc) were able to stabilize small portions of the Weave within their AOE, and helped to mitigate the damage that this horrible lack of magic was causing, as it spread across the globe. The Spellplague didn't 'flow' - magic 'flows'. It was when it stopped flowing that the problems happened. Better to describe magic being like light, and the sun went down... for GOOD. Sure, the world is plunged into darkness, but some cities had good streetlamps, and even though things got a little dimmer, they were able to get by without the sun.* But to say the Spellplague, which is nothing more then a name for an event, 'avoided' certain areas is just really bad phrasing, IMHO. This might seem like nit-picking to some of you, but you can't call something one thing, and then describe it as having the attributes of something else. If the designers don't even know what the hell the Spellplague is at this point, thats just a really bad sign for 4e FR. *Thats with all other considerations about what the sun provides, of course.
Faraer 01-12-08, 11:45 PM	Transferring the last few hundred years on Earth, which have seen technological, political and cultural changes unlike any in history, to a medievalesque world of fantasy and legend would be ridiculous. Friendlyfish is right, though, that too many small things, like local rulers, stay the same between 1357 and 1375 DR. But that's part of the general fact that there was seemingly little attempt to take the situation presented in the Old Grey Box and develop its trends, themes and implications coherently and organically; instead the history has been driven mostly by the whims of the book department, piecemeal and scattershot in the 1360s, more coordinated but no more credible in the 1370s. So much work done on the Realms has essentially taken the sourcebook information too literally, mistaking examples for exclusive lists and failing to understand and work from what's between the lines and beneath the surface.
MerrikCale 01-12-08, 11:48 PM	I hope this whole thing blows up in their face, though I don't think it will. It will most likely be a bestseller for them no matter how much garbage it is, because what it comes down to is WotC and Rich Baker don't really care whether people actually like what they produce, they just care if it sells (which is how a company should operate actually). No. The real question is will subsequent stuff sell. I am sure the FRCS will do well as there is a lot of buzz. If it doesn't deliver then we shall see. The first thing we will need to see is if the novels from this new future do as well as the ones in the 3e timeline
Alediran 01-12-08, 11:50 PM	I agree with the all wise MT63.
MarkusTay63 01-12-08, 11:52 PM	Thank You, kind Sir. :bow: The first thing we will need to see is if the novels from this new future do as well as the ones in the 3e timelineI'm picky about the 3e ones I read; I certainly won't be reading any books taking place in this strange 'future world'. Even if Ed, Elaine, and Schend collaborate on a trilogy... and thats saying a lot!
XHereticX 01-13-08, 12:01 AM	Right, but I fail to see how that is so different from before. All that was supposed to be needed for the 3E Realms was the FRCS, and the core rule books. It's understandable that people feel they need to know more details than that, but isn't that self-imposed? I think it is, just like the need for some people to stick with what's canon is self-imposed. People reacted in negative ways to the 3e Realms not because they needed all that extra information, but that it existed in the first place dismayed them. Ignorance is bliss, and frankly even the knowledge of extra knowledge can prove quite intimidating for certain players. With 4E, WoTC is intentially trying to lessen both the amount of avaliable lore and its connections with older material to give the impression of a fresh statrt. If 4e FR feels like a different setting to you, that's because it was most likely supposed to feel like a different, newer setting.
MarkusTay63 01-13-08, 12:05 AM	Strangely coherent and incisive... I have nothing to disagree with. :( ;) :P
XHereticX 01-13-08, 12:13 AM	Strangely coherent and incisive... I have nothing to disagree with. :( ;) :P In the end, proper epistemology always prevails over superstition and paranoia:)
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 12:42 AM	MT: Crazy how nothing of that sort happened the last time Mystryl/Mystra died.
MarkusTay63 01-13-08, 01:21 AM	Yup - it has absolutely no basis in canon, and actually goes against it. In fact, as I stated in my rant above, the Spellplague isn't even an 'it' at all, yet they continue to assign it qualities that only a tangible thing could have. Just because they called it a plague, doesn't make it one. In fact, a real magical plague, like the one many of us postulated would happen, would have been FAR more creative then this shlock. Whatever... I will continue to develop material for a pre-Spellplague world and post it, as I'm sure many of you will too. Truth be known, I'm really looking forward to doing all the lore on adapting the 4e rules to the old Realms - thats going to be loads of fun! :D
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 01:25 AM	Yup - it has absolutely no basis in canon, and actually goes against it. In fact, as I stated in my rant abover, the Spellplague isn't even an 'it' at all, yet they continue to assign it qualities that only a tangible thing could have. Just because they called it a plague, doesn't make it one. In fact, real magical plague, like the one many of us postulated would happen, would have been FAR more creative then this shlock. -Of course, the 4e FRCS could shed more light on the Spellplague.
soulnova 01-13-08, 01:47 AM	MT63, actually, I read in one article that the "spellplague" per se was a kind of "Blue Fire"... I think even the year is called that way... If any... I imagine the damn thing like one of the Mana Streams of Final Fantasy7 ... an EVIL mana stream going crazy and engulfing everything in it's path. Edit: Wait... I think I took that from GhtR
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 01:51 AM	MT63, actually, I read in one article that the "spellplague" per se was a kind of "Blue Fire"... I think even the year is called that way... -Yes, it was the Year of Blue Fires. Notice that Mystra is traditionally associated with a blue flame. If any... I imagine the damn thing like one of the Mana Streams of Final Fantasy7 ... an EVIL mana stream going crazy and engulfing everything in it's path. Edit: Wait... I think I took that from GhtR -The Lifestream.
18DELTA 01-13-08, 02:21 AM	-I kinda like the 94 year jump now. Say I want to run a game in say, 1436DR I can. And not worry about a novel screwing with things. I kinda like it. I guess the Spellplague is a permanent plot device by WotC to use when ever the Realms need a changing. 5E rolls around bam the 'Spellplague' comes back with a vengence.:rolleyes: -I plan on at least giving the FRCG a look through to see what's really goin on. Star Wars Saga edition, Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide is sounding better and better. Its due out this summer.:D LORD DELTA:fight!:
Marcus Majarra 01-13-08, 04:33 AM	I'm awesome like that. That, or it's the law of averages. Either way, kudos! Me too. But I know that I don't like the fact that the 14th-century Realms won't be published any more; or that the new setting is being explicitly designed to diminish the value of Realmslore, and straightforwardly opposes the project of detailed, continuous, involved world-building that is the Realms' hallmark. I must disagree in part to this, namely where you are led to believe the new setting is explicitly designed to diminish the value of Realmslore (et al...) The way I see it, in its current state, Realmslore constitutes an impressive (some might say overwhelming) amount of information without any specific purpose other than defining the world of the FR. This knowledge will not simply cease to exist or lose any value because the world is changing. If anything, this lore has an impact on how the world is changing or adapting to changes. It's sort of like observing the historical worth of Karsus' Folly or the Fall of Myth Drannor when playing campaigns set in the 14th century. The Realmslore relating to either event wasn't of any direct tangible use to games set in 3E FR. And yet, we were confronted with the legacy of both events, after centuries and incredible changes had occurred. Would the Anauroch and the return of Shade be of any worth without Karsus' Folly or Netheril? Would there be any sense of tragedy and nostalgia to the fiend-infested Myth Drannor if not for its past glory? You see, Realmslore is worth very little by itself, IMHO. It really starts to shine when you apply it, whether it is to a world defined by this lore or built upon this lore. Of course, if Tymanther ends up having absolutely nothing Untheric about it, then I say SHAME TO THE DESIGNERS! Of course, the article mentions the presence of the legacy of the God-King, and I'm thus confident that they're giving Realmslore at least a modicum of consideration. The changes we're talking about were driven in large part by considerations outside the Realms: conformity with 4E rules, misconceptions about the setting, a wish to simplify it for new players and designers. The Realms isn't changing, it's being changed from without. I won't argue conformity with 4E rules. This was an expected consequence of the change of editions. Misconceptions about the setting are a different matter altogether. I would think that if anyone should be in a position to clear out such misconceptions, it's Ed Greenwood. Last I read, he's working on the project. Who are we to say that he hasn't cleared any misconceptions, from his point of view? Finally, the desire to simplify it for both players and designers is a good thing. While a vast amount of lore is most certainly welcome, there has to be some kind of introductory context for the Realms, and it mustn't overwhelm players. As they get acquainted with the setting, they'll have chances to learn more, and this is where more Realmslore will kick in. It's reasonable to expect plenty of contextual material to be published about the setting and how it has changed in quite some detail. After all, this is what the Realms have been doing for decades. The big difference is that, instead of going a couple of years at a time, and watching the world evolve bit by bit, we're jumping ahead a great deal of time, giving more room not only to plenty of new history, but to a history of greater impact to the current setting than anything that's been published to date. That's not to say that Lost Empires of Faerun had no impact to present-day Faerun (I utterly loved that sourcebook), but the return of Shade was certainly most relevant to 3E Faerun. The new history of the Realms will be more than a mere shadow of the past. It will be a scar. The thing about Faerun is that it was created not to be dynamic or everchanging like Earth is. Its like all the ancient cultures of Earth from differing times with magic preserved on another planet. Sure specific civilizations rise and fall, but the overall technology, feel, level of civilization, and ideas remain roughly consistant. I would have to disagree. Looking at the Realms' history, we see plenty of cultures that boasted technologies, feel, civilization, and ideas that are completely different from one another. Ancient Netheril is a prime example of this. Everything that came after Netheril could only catch glimpses of the glory of that golden age of magic in Faerun. The Spellplague is no different from Karsus' Folly in that it drastically changed the world from that point forward and it never felt the same again. Now it´s unfair to compare Eberron (which isn´t really much more than a snapshot- it pretty much just gives you some nice backround some adventure seeds and sends the players into adventure) and FR (a setting that feels alive for so many good reasons, a setting we have come to love decades) but they are more or less competing for the favour (and money) of new D&D players. Well, to me, Eberron feels far more alive than the Realms have ever felt (and I've had more experience with the Realms than I did with Eberron), despite the setting deliberately not going beyond what's going on in 998 YK. What make Eberron alive are the dynamics of the setting's components. Connections are set up between so many different aspects of the setting and in so many different ways that it feels like a living organism, one that we cannot ever hope to fully comprehend. Of course, the Realms are alive in a different way. It's evolving chronologically, albeit at a very slow pace. I see this as something unfortunate, as it leaves little room for change and the Realms are so vast that, by the time you get around to fleshing out certain parts of the settings, others might already have gotten around to changing. I admit that it's really difficult to get this working correctly, however. I suppose, and this is purely hypothetical, that the upcoming editions of the setting will focus more on specific time periods, and provide material to flesh out these specific time periods. Fluff doesn't dictate rules, so fluff doesn't need to be changed to justify rules changes. The fallacy they are operating under says otherwise, but it is simply wrong. To a point, this can't be entirely true. Core races and classes have fluff, by definition. Every single racial trait or class ability has an impact over the setting. Why do dwarves receive combat bonuses against orcs and goblinoids? The mere presence of these bonuses requires that some kind of enmity exist, and this is something that will be imposed on the setting. It's not something I'm fond of, but it's not like we can mechanically build classes and races with abilities that will satisfy their incarnations in every setting published. Well Eberron was created in one piece, FR was slowly created by Ed one bit at a time... While I'm no authority on the subject, I highly doubt that Keith Baker designed Eberron in one piece. The fact that many aspects of the world are deliberately kept as mysterious suggests otherwise. Does that answer satisfy? Well, not exactly, but I appreciate that you took the time to respond. What I'm looking for are constructive uses to the information revealed by that article. I'm hoping that the more knowledgeable Realms fans can provide more interesting perspectives. For my part, I didn't make a "claim" so much as an observation. There's no reason for you to be "offended" by that. You should notice that I did specifically say "If." I'm not actually offended by any of this. If anything, I'm stimulated to participate in these discussions because of possible misinformation. It hasn't been confirmed that "no new civilized realms were formed" other than Netheril. We haven't seen the whole map yet. True. I still hold on to the idea that the wilderness does seem more dangerous and unpredictable than before.
Faraer 01-13-08, 05:50 AM	I must disagree in part to this, namely where you are led to believe the new setting is explicitly designed to diminish the value of Realmslore (et al...)Marcus, when I say 'explicitly', I wish I was guessing or interpreting, but I'm closely paraphrasing statements by the designers in interviews, blogs and forum posts. Certainly the lore still exists, but for new DMs and players its importance and relevance is apparently being lessened (exactly how, except by the time jump, we don't know) to make the Realms more approachable. Three or four of the Wizards people have discussed this; someone correct me if I'm misrepresenting. Misconceptions about the setting are a different matter altogether. I would think that if anyone should be in a position to clear out such misconceptions, it's Ed Greenwood. Last I read, he's working on the project. Who are we to say that he hasn't cleared any misconceptions, from his point of view?You might well think so, but again, I'm not speculating. Rich Baker said directly on his thread that Mystra, the Weave, and many high-level characters are being removed in part to appeal to those who think they overshadow player characters, and that he doesn't agree that they do. That "New players . . . have to absorb tomes of lore to feel invested in a game world" (Chris Sims) is also a misconception or at least a mitigatable factor, which the earlier Realms books tried to avert, such as by the famous opening quote to the DM's Sourcebook of the Realms and by presenting information through unreliable narrators. Wizards gave up these devices, maintained or increased the role of the ongoing timeline (which is legitimately hard to keep up with), and now claim the need for extreme measures against a problem they didn't apparently try to stop, even though they cited it in promotional material seven years ago (see Dragon #276). Finally, the desire to simplify it for both players and designers is a good thing. While a vast amount of lore is most certainly welcome, there has to be some kind of introductory context for the Realms, and it mustn't overwhelm players. As they get acquainted with the setting, they'll have chances to learn more, and this is where more Realmslore will kick in.That would be a fine approach -- I think the 3E FRCS covers too much for a base setting guide -- but it's not what's being done. It's not just that less detail is being published at first: the setting itself is being simplified, with fewer gods, fewer diverse regions, less involved magic and high-level intrigue, and the 14th-century cultural, religious and political detail will no longer directly apply and won't be replaced at the same level, let alone the much greater level in Ed's head and notes, because that would reinstate the lore-daunt all over again. I can find quotes for all this if you like.What make Eberron alive are the dynamics of the setting's components. Connections are set up between so many different aspects of the setting and in so many different ways that it feels like a living organism, one that we cannot ever hope to fully comprehend. Of course, the Realms are alive in a different way.What you say about Eberron is a good description of what makes the Realms live for me, and of course it has a good deal more secrets, little nooks and alleys, current clack, hinted intrigues and legends than Eberron's had time to gather. Look at the Volo's Guides alone! Whereas the timeline advancement does nothing for me since I saw what a mess it was, how much more cogent and wondrous a setting the 1340s and 1350s are than the later years.
johnkretzer 01-13-08, 06:26 AM	4. Well the designers and several posters said that some people perceive this as a problem, and while it does not concern me personally, if people don´t play bechause of this someone has to do something. And those people who liked those character will continue to buy these books why? So all they did was trade one group of people for another...I don't see the gain here. 6.Wizards paid for this research, it´s unlikely that they would give it away, especially since the have no reason to justify their actions. Well we will see in the next preview what happens to the choosen, if the can handle it delicately they might just win back some fans and help the undecided to give the new realms the benefit of the doubt. The problem with market research is that it is useless in predicating what large amounts of people will do. Also all I want to know is what their sample came from...
Scathlock 01-13-08, 09:20 AM	Just read the dragon article this morning. I don't think I'll spend a single € on this new FR that got designed not with the logical evolution of old fr in mind (and a continuation of the existing storylines), but with vague statements of opinionated non-realmsians and the typical attitude of a mostly new design-team/head designer who want to leave their own marks, at all cost. Sure, all been said before by many people, most accurately recently imo by faraer. What I really can't stand is the way they casually nuked Sespech and Chondath (maybe because I got a campaign currently running in the Vilhon Reach area). Perhaps to make absolutely clear that there will be no psionics in the 4e realms? Again, in-game reasons don't seem to exist. Just some magic running wild in random destruction. Only: I don't believe they really rolled any dice. I think there have been a lot of horrible design decisions on the realms in the past (since 2e) but nothing tsr of wotc did before even started to approach the totality of this desaster, which doesn't make any sense, not even remotely. Well, nevermind. I'm mostly playing home-brew and planescape anyway. Just now I think I won't supplement it with new realms-stuff but look for other worlds, other shores to set the sails and start moving my one realms- campaign on the planes before the manure hits the windmill or whatever. I'm so discouraged by this dragon article that I'm truly dreading the one on the chosen. Knowing myself, morbid fascination won't let me not read it.
Devin Lightshadow 01-13-08, 10:04 AM	I see several references from more than one person about the daunting amount of FR information and players feeling overloaded by it. This completely confuses me. I've ran FR games for four different groups in three different US states over the past 20 years. Most of those players never bought a single FR product themselves, or even read one of mine. The vast majority of those players never even read a single FR novel. Heck, I discouraged it, actually, because I didn't want them having more information than their characters did. Players don't need all of that information for the Realms to have fun. My players had tons of fun and never felt overloaded or felt the need to read up in order to actually play a character in the Realms. As for me as DM, as I said in this thread earlier, I've not committed the information to memory and I occasionally discover I've contradicted canon, but oh well. It's my Realms and things change (at least in my version).
Banpai 01-13-08, 10:18 AM	And those people who liked those character will continue to buy these books why? So all they did was trade one group of people for another...I don't see the gain here. The problem with market research is that it is useless in predicating what large amounts of people will do. Also all I want to know is what their sample came from... Well, my guess is that they are quite desperate to attract new players, these days D&D (and to a lesser or greater extend it´s settings) have much competition from MMORPGs, and while they are certanly not the only reason (another big one is that once your players get older, get families of their own it becomes harder and harder to find the time to play) but it´s so damn easy to start something like WoW. You just lock in and play, you don´t have to coordiante with your friends and you can play whenever you want for as long as you want. Shure most D&D groups bring new players into the game but I guess thats not enough for WotC and Hasbro, compaired to something like MTG. I play it since about 12 years now and have to admit that I already invested thousands... So I guess all these changes are intended to get more people to buy their products, we will see if it works. And if all goes wrong nothing stops them to write books pre-spellplague (like the novel about Mirt Ed wants to write some day).
Suin Bahhar 01-13-08, 12:07 PM	In fact, as I stated in my rant above, the Spellplague isn't even an 'it' at all, yet they continue to assign it qualities that only a tangible thing could have. Just because they called it a plague, doesn't make it one. In fact, a real magical plague, like the one many of us postulated would happen, would have been FAR more creative then this shlock.I am intrigued by this as well. My guess has always been that the Spellplague was caused by cosmic magic radiation that now reaches the surface of Toril without the protective Weave of Mystra creating Blue Fire Nebulae. These would sicken or poison most mages or weave sensitive creatures. Radiation CAN flow around, be redirected or absorbed by Mythal- like structures. The new realms magic and geographical vistas could sure entice me to like it, I take the bad with the good I guess. I think it will be interesting to play an elf or dwarf with a fresh memory of the 14th century realms. But I will keep playing and running my other ongoing campaigns. The classic realms offers the detail level my group is used to and will remain superior for a considerable time.
MerrikCale 01-13-08, 12:21 PM	They might have been worried that those places are not palyed in as often so those books might not have sold as much ast the tried and true gaming regions. I would think the Dales and Vilhon Reach were played in
Mirtek 01-13-08, 12:43 PM	-3rd Edition had its Problems and so WotC wanted to produce a better D&D experience so they started to make 4th Edition. The problem was that they had already sold every possible supplement attractive to a large audience (actually even sold them in the 2nd and 3rd version) and thus they needed to restart everything so that they can once again sell the supplements attractive to the largest audience (as someone already owning Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel is less and less likely to also buy Complete Trickser and Complete Desperado and Complete [...])
msatran 01-13-08, 01:00 PM	I'm entirely forced to disagree with that assessment. Amn and Tethyr? What about Calimshan? Heck!The last time they published a sourcebook on Calimshan was the early nineties. Those lands were awesome.
Rauric 01-13-08, 01:10 PM	The problem was that they had already sold every possible supplement attractive to a large audience (actually even sold them in the 2nd and 3rd version) and thus they needed to restart everything so that they can once again sell the supplements attractive to the largest audience (as some already owning Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel is less and less likely to also buy Complete Trickers and Complete Desperado and Complete [...]) Exactly what I was thinking. They did not publish certain ragion books since they thought they would not sell as much as the more popular areas. Now with the jump those popular areas that already may have been discussed in 2e and 3e are going to be fresh with new ideas and new bits of lore and adventures. So peopel who may not have bought them may pick them up if they plan on playing in 4e FR.
MarkusTay63 01-13-08, 01:11 PM	I can name two dozens regions that haven't gotten much attention in awhile, and over a huindred that NEVER have, all off the top of my head. The problem, I see it, si that it is far EASIER to destroy stuff, then create it. If you hae to make changes, but have almost no imagination, thats usually the waty to go... I don't think I'll spend a single € on this new FR that got designed not with the logical evolution of old fr in mind (and a continuation of the existing storylines), but with vague statements of opinionated non-realmsians and the typical attitude of a mostly new design-team/head designer who want to leave their own marks, at all cost.Nail, meet head. I just watched the origianl Batman Movie on TV the other night, and something struck a cord within me, when the Joker decided to 'create art' by spray-painting over masterpieces. He got a certain 'spiteful joy' out of it... :( -I kinda like the 94 year jump now. Say I want to run a game in say, 1436DR I can. And not worry about a novel screwing with things. I kinda like it.Brilliant observation! Ya know, maybe we ARE looking at this the wrong way - we've been complaining for years about how the canon Realms' RSEs and novels have been 'screwing up' our games, and now we are free from all that. AS long as we keep chugging along in the current year, our campaigns are untouchable, and when the Spellplague DOES hit in 1385 DR, we can play through it, with all the boatloads of adventure THAT will bring. The new campaign setting sounds pretty boring (to me, anyway), but the Spellplagued Years sounds like a century of non-stop adventuring!!! :dancin: They may have just done us a favor after all. ;)
Alkasyn 01-13-08, 01:11 PM	The problem was that they had already sold every possible supplement attractive to a large audience (actually even sold them in the 2nd and 3rd version) and thus they needed to restart everything so that they can once again sell the supplements attractive to the largest audience (as some already owning Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel is less and less likely to also buy Complete Trickers and Complete Desperado and Complete [...]) And "Complete Crap" remember about that??:) I would think the Dales and Vilhon Reach were played in I agree - I took my players to Sespech and the Border Kingdoms solely because it's something different from the Heartlands and the Sword Coast, present in most of the literature. Realms are as interesting as you make them to be. And gomeztoo - if you think that Sespech is boring, it jsut means that you presented it in a boring way. Anyway, as the DM of my group, I explained my troupe what the changes of 4e are going to look like, and every single one of them said - "screw it, those are not realms anymore and we don't want to play that" . I don't know a single person in my gaming community that likes the changes, but it's going to be the same as with "Windows Vista - it's worse than Xp, and XP was worse than the previous versions, but hey, we give it for free with every pc, and you won't run the old software on the old operating systems, because we won't allow it." - and we will have to move on if we will want to recieve new updates on the lore. Also, funny aside thing - in my country, a company just recently started to publish the 3.5 Ed FR core books, and not all of them have been translated, too. Why now should I bother to buy and read them, if I know the information there is going to be more or less useless if I want to move to the new Realms? That's why me and my team are staying in 3.5. Good luck with the new playerbase, WoTC, you sure as hell will need it.
MarkusTay63 01-13-08, 01:21 PM	Add Poland to the ever growing list of countries 'lights' going off in the WotC 'War-room'. :P
gomeztoo 01-13-08, 01:29 PM	From what you know? That's just an opinion being stated as if it were a fact. I don't think I ever said it was a fact. I merely gave my personal opinion, which really has as much value as all the people stating they hate everything about 4th ed Realms based on scraps and rumors. Chondat did not grab me as interesting. A few city states fighting a trade war, and that's about it (my view). From all the realms if Faerun, it be the last one I'd pick for a game. So, for me, it is not a loss that its gone, as compared to losing Calimshan, or Thay, or Sembia. You are free to disagree, but I don't think the changing lands is that bad. Not a brilliant move, either, but, still imo, we did not loose something irreplaceable. Gomez
MarkusTay63 01-13-08, 01:45 PM	I never liked Sembia, but I never hated it... until now. :( Still, glad to see Cormyr still in good shape; it is my second favorite place to run adventures. That name 'Florin' has to go - its AWFUL; He sounds like a girly-man! Not nearly as cool as Azoun... The Stonelands, Tunlands, and Stormhorns are now places to go adventure in? How incredibly intuitive! Hmmmm... I guess I must have created those two campaign maps I did with 4e in mind. ;)
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 02:34 PM	I see several references from more than one person about the daunting amount of FR information and players feeling overloaded by it. This completely confuses me. I've ran FR games for four different groups in three different US states over the past 20 years. Most of those players never bought a single FR product themselves, or even read one of mine. The vast majority of those players never even read a single FR novel. Heck, I discouraged it, actually, because I didn't want them having more information than their characters did. Players don't need all of that information for the Realms to have fun. My players had tons of fun and never felt overloaded or felt the need to read up in order to actually play a character in the Realms. -This is a common misperception that has turned into a mantra for those who, for whatever reason, do not like the setting. Like things that are repeated over and over, some believe this to be true. As Objectivism says, however, one's perception of the truth is not necessarily the truth. And, in this case, this applies. As the saying goes, "Eat crap, it tastes good. Millions of flies can't be wrong". The fact that millions of flies east it does not negate the fact that excretement does, in fact, taste bad.
18DELTA 01-13-08, 02:40 PM	Brilliant observation! Ya know, maybe we ARE looking at this the wrong way - we've been complaining for years about how the canon Realms' RSEs and novels have been 'screwing up' our games, and now we are free from all that. AS long as we keep chugging along in the current year, our campaigns are untouchable, and when the Spellplague DOES hit in 1385 DR, we can play through it, with all the boatloads of adventure THAT will bring. The new campaign setting sounds pretty boring (to me, anyway), but the Spellplagued Years sounds like a century of non-stop adventuring!!! :dancin: They may have just done us a favor after all. ;) -Hey, sometimes I have my moments.;) Now our campaigns aren't enslaved to the novels now. If you dont want it to be.:D And "Complete Crap" remember about that??:) -I would so buy it!!!:P LORD DELTA:mage:
MerrikCale 01-13-08, 02:48 PM	I'm entirely forced to disagree with that assessment. Amn and Tethyr? What about Calimshan? Heck!The last time they published a sourcebook on Calimshan was the early nineties. Those lands were awesome. That was sort of my point. When was the last time we saw a Dales sorcebook
Marcus Majarra 01-13-08, 03:07 PM	What you say about Eberron is a good description of what makes the Realms live for me, and of course it has a good deal more secrets, little nooks and alleys, current clack, hinted intrigues and legends than Eberron's had time to gather. Look at the Volo's Guides alone! Whereas the timeline advancement does nothing for me since I saw what a mess it was, how much more cogent and wondrous a setting the 1340s and 1350s are than the later years. I very much enjoyed your reply. Here are a few things I want to address about this specific part: It's undeniable that FR has had far more time to gather content material than Eberron has, if only because the settings were released decades apart. The problem I see is that these decades of material aren't very accessible. I remember, back when I used to play 2E FR, my group and I had an extremely difficult time locating a copy of Volo's Guide to Waterdeep. While I recognize the gold mine of information that book represents, it was hard to come by for us back then (and it's not like we were in some backwater town; we live in Montreal), and it's even more difficult to find now, especially since it's not in the Classic Realms Products list. None of the old sourcebooks and boxed sets of the more generic Realms are available either. The three Deity books were wonderfully detailed, but they're not easy to come by either, in this day and age. What I'm trying to say is that all this wonderful information about the Realms ends up being inaccessible. This is why I'm mostly favorable to the idea of selecting a completely different time period on which to focus each edition of the setting. Information is much easier to manage if each edition focuses on a different aspect of the setting, and tends to offer a more complete resource to players of that particular edition. After all, without a truckload of legacy content from pre-3E, I doubt the 3E Realms will feel complete. In 4E, not having all this legacy content will not detract from the value of the setting, and using it will only make the experience richer. In any case, I expect that FR fans will provide resources to convert unsupported material to 4E's mechanics, if WotC doesn't do it. Unless WotC were to find some way to consolidate all the pre-4E Realmslore into material they can publish and sell for 4E, it serves little purpose to do so. In a way, I'm glad it doesn't. If WotC were to merely publish the very same content with whole new rules over and over again, I'd really get the feeling that the Realms are actually static. These, of course, are merely opinions.
Marcus Majarra 01-13-08, 03:11 PM	That name 'Florin' has to go - its AWFUL; He sounds like a girly-man! Seconded. It was kinda hard figuring out who was THE MAN in the Falconhand household. ROTFL!
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 03:38 PM	Seconded. It was kinda hard figuring out who was THE MAN in the Falconhand household. ROTFL! -Kind of ironic that 'Dove' is the forceful presence.
Faraer 01-13-08, 03:48 PM	I would think the Dales and Vilhon Reach were played inDales, certainly:For the most part, though, we've concentrated our efforts in two regions: the Dalelands and the North. Our market research indicates that most FR fans are playing their games in those areas, so we covered them in greater depth than we did other parts of Faerûn.(Rich Baker, http://web.archive.org/web/20040427165227/www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20010124b)They did not publish certain ragion books since they thought they would not sell as much as the more popular areas.In fact, they published books on the Shining South and Unapproachable East but none on the Dalelands, Cormyr, Sembia, Dragon Coast (which has never been detailed in print) or anywhere in the North (in the sense of north-of-Inner Sea lands) outside Waterdeep and Luruar.
Kenzuki 01-13-08, 03:53 PM	-Kind of ironic that 'Dove' is the forceful presence. Maybe Florin is just content to sit back and let his wife wear the pants? I mean she's the Chosen of a Goddess and he's a ranger dude right? "Florin darling, be a dear and go cut some fire wood for us, it's cold outside." "Uhhhh *geez if I don't listen to her Mystra is likely to strike me down or something.* sure darling. You know I'de do ANYTHING for you hunny.
Alkasyn 01-13-08, 03:53 PM	Add Poland to the ever growing list of countries 'lights' going off in the WotC 'War-room'. :P Eventually, a guy will come and turn off the lights for the War-room itself, too:) What I'm trying to say is that all this wonderful information about the Realms ends up being inaccessible. This is why I'm mostly favorable to the idea of selecting a completely different time period on which to focus each edition of the setting. Information is much easier to manage if each edition focuses on a different aspect of the setting, and tends to offer a more complete resource to players of that particular edition. After all, without a truckload of legacy content from pre-3E, I doubt the 3E Realms will feel complete. In 4E, not having all this legacy content will not detract from the value of the setting, and using it will only make the experience richer. SO 5th Ed should also jump 150 years into the future?? What point is there in buying 4th ed books, then if they will be useless in 2 years or so?
Faraer 01-13-08, 04:11 PM	I see several references from more than one person about the daunting amount of FR information and players feeling overloaded by it. This completely confuses me. I've ran FR games for four different groups in three different US states over the past 20 years. Most of those players never bought a single FR product themselves, or even read one of mine.There's two scenarios: DM's not getting into the Realms because they feel overwhelmed by its lore or don't like the feeling of jumping on halfway, and DMs put off by having to deal with players telling them how things should be. The first is credible enough, though has several less extreme solutions; the second I have trouble believing is common at all. Especially given how much the FRCS outsold the supplements, there can hardly be that many combinations of highly Realms-knowedgable but arrogant players and wimpy DMs. Again, of course, maybe the market research tells different, though we mustn't assume so.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 04:36 PM	There's two scenarios: DM's not getting into the Realms because they feel overwhelmed by its lore or don't like the feeling of jumping on halfway, and DMs put off by having to deal with players telling them how things should be. The first is credible enough, though has several less extreme solutions; the second I have trouble believing is common at all. Especially given how much the FRCS outsold the supplements, there can hardly be that many combinations of highly Realms-knowedgable but arrogant players and wimpy DMs. Again, of course, maybe the market research tells different, though we mustn't assume so. -Actually, I think it's the opposite. I think that not wanting to have to deal with players telling them how to do things is a much more...credible argument than claiming to be overwhelmed by the established lore, or not wanting to "jump into the deep end of the pool".
XHereticX 01-13-08, 04:54 PM	What I'm trying to say is that all this wonderful information about the Realms ends up being inaccessible. This is why I'm mostly favorable to the idea of selecting a completely different time period on which to focus each edition of the setting. Information is much easier to manage if each edition focuses on a different aspect of the setting, and tends to offer a more complete resource to players of that particular edition. After all, without a truckload of legacy content from pre-3E, I doubt the 3E Realms will feel complete. In 4E, not having all this legacy content will not detract from the value of the setting, and using it will only make the experience richer. True, it is far more flexible to play in a setting that allows one to have a fuller gaming experience without the giant hand of the past budging in at every corner confusing the crap out of newer players and overwhelming DMs, with the continued option of using it for more enjoyment after you've caught on. The main factor that concerns me however is how WoTC "simplified" the new world itself by destroying many diverse and complex cultures (Sespech, Chondath, Thay, Unther), and replaced them with monster-infested wastelands for no other apparent purpose than to do some "Uber-poooning." Also, the issue of the "disapperance" of all the nonhuman pantheons just came out of thin air to me and seemed like an attempt for WoTC to line up FR to the 4E archetype. If they don't give a detailed, logical, and well-crafted explanation to this, then I'm done with the Realms. Frankly, Retcon in the Realms does nothing but sicken me, and if this factor is as dangerous as some people on these boards seem to believe, it will result in not only the old lore being pushed to the wayside, but the complete severing of the old lore from the Realms forever.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-13-08, 07:39 PM	What you say about Eberron is a good description of what makes the Realms live for me, and of course it has a good deal more secrets, little nooks and alleys, current clack, hinted intrigues and legends than Eberron's had time to gather. Look at the Volo's Guides alone! Seconded. The "minute and subtle connections" between the various elements of the setting are all there, and they aren't too difficult to find, either.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-13-08, 07:51 PM	It's undeniable that FR has had far more time to gather content material than Eberron has, if only because the settings were released decades apart. The problem I see is that these decades of material aren't very accessible. I remember, back when I used to play 2E FR, my group and I had an extremely difficult time locating a copy of Volo's Guide to Waterdeep. While I recognize the gold mine of information that book represents, it was hard to come by for us back then (and it's not like we were in some backwater town; we live in Montreal), and it's even more difficult to find now, especially since it's not in the Classic Realms Products list. None of the old sourcebooks and boxed sets of the more generic Realms are available either. The three Deity books were wonderfully detailed, but they're not easy to come by either, in this day and age. What I'm trying to say is that all this wonderful information about the Realms ends up being inaccessible. You can buy pretty much all of the older books online, on sites like nobleknight.com. The prices are fair, as well. Out-of-print stuff is only inaccessable if one cannot, or does not want to, shop online.
Mr_Miscellany 01-13-08, 08:14 PM	Out-of-print stuff is only inaccessable if one cannot, or does not want to, shop online. It's unreasonable, though, for any company with half a brain to expect their customers to have to "catch up" on their own buy buying out of print books. That was teh beauty of the 3E FRCS: It scratched the surface, but it did it well enough to get people going in the Realms without having to buy a truckload of other, out of print products. That, and it pushed the strengths of the 3E rules-set for DMs and players to really see what the (then) new ruels could do.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 08:16 PM	It's unreasonable, though, for any company with half a brain to expect their customers to have to "catch up" on their own buy buying out of print books. That was teh beauty of the 3E FRCS: It scratched the surface, but it did it well enough to get people going in the Realms without having to buy a truckload of other, out of print products. That, and it pushed the strengths of the 3E rules-set for DMs and players to really see what the (then) new ruels could do. I agree with you on 3e FRCS, it was beautiful. So why change it into something that is crap in comparison;)
Damaramu26 01-13-08, 08:21 PM	I don't play D&D anymore. I had to move 4 hours away from everyone I know when I graduated college. So, I have nobody to play with. However, to supplement my need for gaming I've began reading the FR novels and I've had a blast with them. I know there are a ton more to read and it'll take me forever to get through them all(if i even want to read them all). I, like most here, hate this idea. But, I'm wondering more how this is going to affect the novels? Because the setting looks terrible and I wonder if the novels will turn out terrible. If they'll have a different tone. If Greenwood(my fav) will even still be able to write them?
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 08:21 PM	It's unreasonable, though, for any company with half a brain to expect their customers to have to "catch up" on their own buy buying out of print books. -That's a common practice. Off the top of my mind, I'll use comic books as the example. Any specific comic book is produced for a limited amount of time. After that specific amount of time, it is no longer printed (as a general rule- exceptions exist). Events that go on in said out-of-print comic books are referenced in other comic books. If the reader wants the 'full scoop', instead of whatever allusions are made, he/she needs to purchase that out-of-print comic to 'catch up'.
XHereticX 01-13-08, 08:23 PM	-That's a common practice. Off the top of my mind, I'll use comic books as the example. Any specific comic book is produced for a limited amount of time. After that specific amount of time, it is no longer printed (as a general rule- exceptions exist). Events that go on in said out-of-print comic books are referenced in other comic books. If the reader wants the 'full scoop', instead of whatever allusions are made, he/she needs to purchase that out-of-print comic to 'catch up'. Hey, there is always Candlekeep, as well as all that free 2e stuff WoTC gives free. There are ways to catch up everywhere, even from just talking to people on this forum. That's how I did it:D
Devin Lightshadow 01-13-08, 08:29 PM	Out-of-print stuff is only inaccessable if one cannot, or does not want to, shop online. Also, nearly every pre-3e FR product (if not every single one - I think I might be missing one or two) is availble as a .pdf, either for free from WotC or for purchase from a site like Paizo.
Devin Lightshadow 01-13-08, 08:36 PM	It's unreasonable, though, for any company with half a brain to expect their customers to have to "catch up" on their own buy buying out of print books. Not really. Someone else made the comic book comparisson. I'll also compare it to lengthy novel series. If someone picks up a novel in a series that's been running for a decade or more, they often have to track down the out-of-print earlier novels to read what came before. If you're lucky, it's an exceedingly popular series still in reprint. If you're not, you have to hit the used book stores and try and find the earlier ones. Another example is TV shows on DVD. If you've not watched a certain show before and want to catch up, you can either try and get lucky with reruns (if it's in syndication) or you can try and track down the DVD sets and buy them, and sometimes they aren't easy to find after they've been out a couple of years. Neither the publishers that produce fiction nor the studios that produce TV shows feel obligated to provide us with all we need to know in order to not be lost with each release of their product.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 11:03 PM	Not really. Someone else made the comic book comparisson. -Ah, I was going to use that one first, but I eventually settled on comics.
johnkretzer 01-13-08, 11:27 PM	-That's a common practice. Off the top of my mind, I'll use comic books as the example. Any specific comic book is produced for a limited amount of time. After that specific amount of time, it is no longer printed (as a general rule- exceptions exist). Events that go on in said out-of-print comic books are referenced in other comic books. If the reader wants the 'full scoop', instead of whatever allusions are made, he/she needs to purchase that out-of-print comic to 'catch up'. Not only that but comic books lots of money by selling reprints of the classic storylines....
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 11:32 PM	Not only that but comic books lots of money by selling reprints of the classic storylines.... -That's where my 'exceptions exist' clause kicked in. I started going into a tanget about compilations of old comicbooks, Trade Paperbacks, and so on, but I decided that 'exceptions exist' is easier to say, and right to the point. ;)
Marcus Majarra 01-13-08, 11:35 PM	SO 5th Ed should also jump 150 years into the future?? What point is there in buying 4th ed books, then if they will be useless in 2 years or so? Yes, I think jumping 150 years into the future would be a great thing to do for 5th edition. And what gives you the idea that 4E will only last 2 years or so? 3E lasts 8. In any case, I honestly hope no one thinks their 3E Realms sourcebooks will be useless in 4E. Just because they document a past era doesn't invalidate the contents of those books. Lost Empires of Faerun was an awesome 3E sourcebook for the Realms, and it basically covers Realmslore from the significant past. Is the book useless because it doesn't apply to 14th century Faerun? I doubt this very much. You can buy pretty much all of the older books online, on sites like nobleknight.com. The prices are fair, as well. Out-of-print stuff is only inaccessable if one cannot, or does not want to, shop online. Mr_Miscellany addressed this issue beautifully: "It's unreasonable, though, for any company with half a brain to expect their customers to have to "catch up" on their own buy buying out of print books." Players and DMs shouldn't need to be set up to date with the Realms by searching for Realms material from disparate and discontinued sources. For this to be true at any level, every edition of the game should be complete in the sense that it offers sufficient information to keep players and DMs informed of what's going on. If the Realms don't move forward significantly, every edition will end up simply reprinting old material with shiny new rulesets. That's a common practice. Off the top of my mind, I'll use comic books as the example. Any specific comic book is produced for a limited amount of time. After that specific amount of time, it is no longer printed (as a general rule- exceptions exist). Events that go on in said out-of-print comic books are referenced in other comic books. If the reader wants the 'full scoop', instead of whatever allusions are made, he/she needs to purchase that out-of-print comic to 'catch up'. That's correct, but you have to keep in mind that the reference is not the primary focus of what's going on in the new comic book. It's mostly there to give supplemental context. You won't lose anything in the comic's experience by not exploring this reference, but you'll surely gain from doing so. Take Dragonlance canon, for example. I don't need to read the Chronicles trilogy or to know implicitly what the feel and genre of the game was in the War of the Lance era in order to play games in the 5th Age or to appreciate the full scope of the War of Souls trilogy. And yet, during the War of Souls, Dragonlance is quite a different world, and still very much Dragonlance.
GreenKnight 01-13-08, 11:46 PM	If someone picks up a novel in a series that's been running for a decade or more, they often have to track down the out-of-print earlier novels to read what came before. If you're lucky, it's an exceedingly popular series still in reprint. If you're not, you have to hit the used book stores and try and find the earlier ones. Hell, not even a decade. I saw THIS (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KB3oHVfYL._SS500_.jpg) book collecting the first five novels in the DS9 Relaunch line on Amazon a while back, so I thought I'd pick it up. I loved it so much that I decided to buy the rest of the line then and there. Unfortunately the four crucial novels that followed it were out of print, despite having been released less then 5 years earlier. I couldn't believe it. And I sure as hell wasn't gonna read the latter books which were still available and hope that the earlier books would get reprinted. So eventually I had to buy a Pocket PC with an eReader and buy eBook versions of the novels in question. Anyway, as far as old supplement downloads are concerned, I just wish one could get a cheap printout of those old books. I always end up paying through the nose every time I try to print one of them out.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 11:58 PM	That's correct, but you have to keep in mind that the reference is not the primary focus of what's going on in the new comic book. It's mostly there to give supplemental context. You won't lose anything in the comic's experience by not exploring this reference, but you'll surely gain from doing so. -The same theory applies with the Forgotten Realms, and really, any campaign setting, regarding out-of-print novels, adventures, sourcebooks, etc. Take Dragonlance canon, for example. I don't need to read the Chronicles trilogy or to know implicitly what the feel and genre of the game was in the War of the Lance era in order to play games in the 5th Age or to appreciate the full scope of the War of Souls trilogy. And yet, during the War of Souls, Dragonlance is quite a different world, and still very much Dragonlance. -Admittedly, I don't know very much about the setting. I am under the assumption that, as you alluded to, it is broken into different 'Ages', much like Lord of the Rings, that are very much totally different worlds, with a few staples (geography, certain individuals, amd so on) bridging the gap. Am I close? And I sure as hell wasn't gonna read the latter books which were still available and hope that the earlier books would get reprinted. So eventually I had to buy a Pocket PC with an eReader and buy eBook versions of the novels in question. -Wow. That's pretty...intense.
GreenKnight 01-14-08, 12:02 AM	I have hundreds of these stories. Did I mention the time I found lint in my belly button? Horrible. :nonono:
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 12:03 AM	Did I mention the time I found lint in my belly button? Horrible. :nonono: -You too? It's horrible, I know. :cool:
Dark Wizard 01-14-08, 12:39 AM	Okay, after reading the "Countdown to the Realms: Year of the Ageless One," first impression left me chuckling out loud. It's really odd to me since back during WotC's Great Setting Design Competition of 2002 I sent in a submission with a premise that the murderous actions of a dark god lead to a massive magical calamity that struck the world, randomly leaving odd spellscarred, impossible fantasy landscape across it. Calamity-changed monsters poured forth from some of these reality-torn locales. The world even had races similar to the Draconborn and the Shades. I came up with the setting in a day, about a week before the deadline. I didn't have any good ideas coming to me, so I just slapped something together (first things that came to mind) hoping for a long shot, doubting myself all the way to the mailbox, not really confident that it would get anywhere. NOT that I'm claiming WotC copied or stole my ideas, but after a few years it's just amusing to see something else pop up in a similar vein. I guess I wasn't so far off the mark with what WotC wanted in a setting. I just never expected to see such ideas applied to the Realms.
Rauric 01-14-08, 12:51 AM	So far it does not seem so apocalyptic. Many well known cities are still around, same with regions and kingdoms. Well known NPCs are gone but that worries me little. My Npcs are better anyway.:P
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 12:54 AM	@DW - So what you are saying is that you are either some sort of Uber-genius that came up with the exact same ideas (in a day!) as a team a 'crack professionals' did in two years, or that a certain group of people are so incredibly bad at their job that anyone could of threw that shlock together in an hour. I guess that makes you a genius, eh? ;) -Admittedly, I don't know very much about the setting. I am under the assumption that, as you alluded to, it is broken into different 'Ages', much like Lord of the Rings, that are very much totally different worlds, with a few staples (geography, certain individuals, amd so on) bridging the gap. Am I close?I don't know much either, except I didn't like it rigt from the get-go. One thing I do know are maps (what can I say? They turn me on), and I can tell you that they changed drastically as well from age to age - continents rose from the sea, others became partially submerged... it was probably far more horrendous to DL fans then what they are doing to us now. Except for the races, it could have been a completely different setting each time.
Vulpes 01-14-08, 12:57 AM	Originally Posted by GreenKnight View Post And I sure as hell wasn't gonna read the latter books which were still available and hope that the earlier books would get reprinted. So eventually I had to buy a Pocket PC with an eReader and buy eBook versions of the novels in question. -Wow. That's pretty...intense. I was going to say the same thing, Lord Karsus, until I looked at the prices for used copies of the Mission Gamma (the next four books in the series, which I think are the ones GreenKnight referred to) and OMG! The prices are INSANE! In the end, he may very well have saved, or at least not overspent, getting the reader and eBooks. There really must not be a lot of them around. My complete DS9 Relaunch set must be worth more money that I'd thought. Hmmmm... Anyway, on topic, so Cormyr is what the Cormyr of today is, plus Daerlun and Urmlaspyr, and Proskur, which is due south of the Tunlands. I wonder, though, just what they mean by "the small cities on the southern shore of the Dragonmere turned to Cormyr for protection." I mean, Ilipur, Teziir, and Pros are obviously small cities on the southern coast of the Dragonmere, but what about slightly more in-land Elversult and Reddansyr? Westgate? Things would have had to go really bad for all those exiled Cormyrean noble houses to ask for its protection, even if, as the article says, not everyone's happy under Obarskyr rule. And is Starmantle considered part of the Dragon Coast? It's a bit far from the rest of them.
yarethon 01-14-08, 01:12 AM	Just coming back from the dead here... The sword coast info was all right for me. Also imperial cormyr. I am very skeptical about dragoborn ex-unther thing. I hated Chondath becoming Changing lands. It screams out to me as WoW's plaguelands. Loved Moonshaes/Amn thing. I just don't understand why the first time mystra (mystryl) died, netheril fell from the skies. Second time... city of shade is just fine ... floating as new. I am not sure what to think of it yet. Having an awful feeling about it... but I guess I should wait for more info.
GreenKnight 01-14-08, 01:16 AM	Well, the Pocket PC cost me $85, so it's not as if I broke the bank on that. Besides, I've found it pretty useful for downloading other eBooks. And it was great for when I took long 12+ hour drives to visit relatives out-of-state. I'm a fast reader, so I tend to zoom through books pretty fast. Especially when I have nothing to do. So it was pretty cool carrying a dozen books or so with me in my pocket, which I could read very comfortably during the car trip there and back. After spending a week up there, I finished off damn near the entire line-up from Mission Gamma and onwards. And yeah, the prices were insane. I'm looking at the "see all buying options" at Amazon, and the cheapest copy of the first Mission Gamma novel is $16 for a used copy, and $35 for a new copy. The second is $3.15 used/$20 new. The third is $9.59 used/$103.75 new. The fourth is $29.82 used/$68.14 new. Getting the cheapest used versions would've run me about $58.56, for four used paperback novels. New copies were right out, of course. And the Mission Gamma books weren't even the only ones that were out-of-print. So's Rising Son and the first part of Left Hand of Destiny.
GreenKnight 01-14-08, 01:26 AM	Anyway, on topic, so Cormyr is what the Cormyr of today is, plus Daerlun and Urmlaspyr, and Proskur, which is due south of the Tunlands. I wonder, though, just what they mean by "the small cities on the southern shore of the Dragonmere turned to Cormyr for protection." I mean, Ilipur, Teziir, and Pros are obviously small cities on the southern coast of the Dragonmere, but what about slightly more in-land Elversult and Reddansyr? And yeah, getting back on topic... My guess is that this is approximately what Imperial Cormyr's borders look like. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/2268668Spellplague03.jpg Westgate? Things would have had to go really bad for all those exiled Cormyrean noble houses to ask for its protection, even if, as the article says, not everyone's happy under Obarskyr rule. Depends on when this happened. They may be more willing to sign up once the old guard dies out. Gotta reread that article and see if there was a hint as to what got added when.
Rauric 01-14-08, 01:26 AM	Just coming back from the dead here... The sword coast info was all right for me. Also imperial cormyr. I am very skeptical about dragoborn ex-unther thing. I hated Chondath becoming Changing lands. It screams out to me as WoW's plaguelands. Loved Moonshaes/Amn thing. I just don't understand why the first time mystra (mystryl) died, netheril fell from the skies. Second time... city of shade is just fine ... floating as new. I am not sure what to think of it yet. Having an awful feeling about it... but I guess I should wait for more info. The 2nd time Shade was still in the Shadow Planes. Ya mean the 3rd time? Maybe it did fall? Maybe many shades knew what was going to happen and left.
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 01:31 AM	Rich said the Mythallar protected it - something that didn't happen when she died the first time - I guess they get better with age. Just like the original Realms. ;) I'm already seeing a dozen or so holes in continuity - something they said 4e was supposed to do away with. I guess there is a reason they wanted to get rid of all that old lore - they don't know any of it. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 02:00 AM	I'm already seeing a dozen or so holes in continuity - something they said 4e was supposed to do away with. I guess there is a reason they wanted to get rid of all that old lore - they don't know any of it. :rolleyes: -Forgive me, whoever it was, but someone posted 10 questions analyzing the article. MT, I suggest you check it out, as it mirrored a lot of what I was thinking, and in all likelihood, a lot that you are thinking. I don't know much either, except I didn't like it rigt from the get-go. One thing I do know are maps (what can I say? They turn me on), and I can tell you that they changed drastically as well from age to age - continents rose from the sea, others became partially submerged... it was probably far more horrendous to DL fans then what they are doing to us now. Except for the races, it could have been a completely different setting each time. -So, basically, each age was a mostly different product, all with the same brandname of Dragonlance.
Dark Wizard 01-14-08, 02:18 AM	@DW - So what you are saying is that you are either some sort of Uber-genius that came up with the exact same ideas (in a day!) as a team a 'crack professionals' did in two years, or that a certain group of people are so incredibly bad at their job that anyone could of threw that shlock together in an hour. I guess that makes you a genius, eh? ;) While I wished I could think of myself as an Uber-genius I can't honestly say that, nor can I say I believe the designers made a shoddy effort. I think they did put a lot of effort into this, perhaps not in the areas I personally hoped they would address, but they stuck with their own choices and carried it out. I do believe that the ideas I submitted in that contest years ago and what the New Realms has are very generic fantasy ideas, perhaps at times cliche, stale, or just not any good in certain contexts. I know without a doubt that my submission setting needed a ton of work and boatloads of polish to make a decent setting. That same problem applies to the New Realms. All these things they mentioned for the New Realms have been done before, often times better, bigger and brighter by other settings and franchises. The designers have to seriously bust their butts to make this work, to differentiate the age old fantasy troupe of the magical cataclysm reshaping the world.
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 02:46 AM	I think thats it in a nutshell, at this point. The new stuff doesn't make me angry (as it is doing for some), but rather is putting me to sleep. I just don't see anything interesting going on there - at least not anything I haven't seen before, at least ½ dozen times over. The whole thing looks like a major yawn-fest - whereas the Spellplague itself looks like the truly adventure-laden period to game in. And a whole century to game in, without a single novel-related RSE! Its like Christmas all over again! :dancin:
Fingoldfin 01-14-08, 02:49 AM	MarkusTay63;14824606]Rich said the Mythallar protected it - something that didn't happen when she died the first time - I guess they get better with age. This is one of the glaring contradictions that I noticed. It just doesn't make any sense. I'm already seeing a dozen or so holes in continuity - something they said 4e was supposed to do away with. I guess there is a reason they wanted to get rid of all that old lore - they don't know any of it. :rolleyes: Oh don't worry, I'm sure when the campaign setting comes out it'll "knock our socks off." :rolleyes:
Reneshat 01-14-08, 03:15 AM	Now I realize you all have been waiting with bated breath for my opinion on the article, and feedback in general. I hate to keep my devoted audience waiting, but I wanted time to digest what I read, and I also wanted to peruse the discussions on the article and it's revelations before I posted. Also, not reading the article, much less threads about it until not quite 24 hours ago certainly added in the delay.:P As for a previous comment by John Kretzer about whether or not he now had enough information about the changes, yes John, you now have permission to complain to your hearts content. I know you were concerned about my blessing, but rest assured that I do have your best interests at heart. Seriously, I think this is the first bit of real hard information we have to say that various concerns and predictions were accurate, and the changes are just as severe as many feared (or hoped in some cases) they would be. The jump, as many had predicted based on logical conclusions with the information we had, completely and totally separated the old from the new. It made the old lore less important, and gave time for the world to settle into the model we are now seeing. The reason I mention something so incredibly obvious, is because of the threads where people attacked me for saying there was a valid reasoning behind believing the progression would be as drastic as it is. As far as the article itself is concerned, I'm really torn. Rich attempted to give us what we asked for. We complained that we wanted to see something that was still around, that wasn't destroyed, so he gave us the Sword Coast. We said we wanted to see things that grew, or were in a better position after the spellplague, so he gave us Cormyr and Baldur's Gate. We said we wanted to know how the Dragonborn were going to be "shoehorned" into the setting. The specific focus of the article shows that Rich was really trying to give us the information we wanted. So in that respect, I am very happy, and grateful for the article. However, as far as the actual material of the article is concerned, I'm really torn. It doesn't seem like the Realms to me any longer. It feels more like I'm Dorothy, returning to Oz, only to find the Golden Brick Road in ruins, the Emerald City destroyed, and all of the citizens turned to stone. In some ways, this intrigues me. Part of me wants to explore and discover the decimated ruins of a world I once loved, to see what happens after it all, well, ends. Part of me hates the idea however, of a world I knew so well ruined. However, even if I did play in this world, most of the effects I would be searching for would only work if I was playing a character from pre-spellplague that was somehow transported into this almost post-apocalyptic landscape. Someone who knew and loved the old world as much as I did. Playing a character from this world, one that knows only this world, appeals to me far less. I'm not sure about the specifics at the moment. My guess is I will have to wait until more information comes out until I make a decision one way or another about whether or not I think the new world has any merit on it's own.
BadCatMan 01-14-08, 04:16 AM	Tymanther and the Dragonborn really bug me. Firstly because between this and the Changing Lands, I've probably lost my beloved Chessenta. Secondly, in this region we have/had two/three realms in this region slowly being dominated by dragons - Tchazzar in Chessenta, Alasklerbanbastos and pals in Threskel, Maldraedior in Unther, and the Cult of the Dragon and the worshippers of Tiamat all over place. Where it's entirely feasible for half-dragons to be spawned from the loins of the rulers, or magicked up from Pit Of Many Colours ala the Spawn Of Tiamat. So how do the Dragonborn appear? Spontaneously portaled in from another world, actively ignoring the potential for a logical development from the existing set-up, and the recently developed events of Dragons Of Faerun. This is just incompetence!
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 04:21 AM	So how do the Dragonborn appear? Spontaneously portaled in from another world, actively ignoring the potential for a logical development from the existing set-up, and the recently developed events of Dragons Of Faerun. This is just incompetence! -As I said in another thread, the fact that they did not use the plothook dangled in Dragons of Faerûn left me scratching my head.
Derren S. 01-14-08, 07:34 AM	Wow, so much 4E FR hate here (strangely on other boards many people see those changes much more positive, or at least aren't screaming as loudly) I agree that introducing Dragonborn this way is rather silly. Even wit the long timejump is very hard to justify them as PC race when they are introduced that way. Oh, and to pour additional gas into the flame, Rich answered some questions about this article. Enjoy (or not) http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14824484&postcount=2354
Leopold_Humperdinck 01-14-08, 08:37 AM	I read that article, and I really don't know what to say. I'll tell the truth, I started playing Dungeons and Dragons very recently. I was into MMORPGs before Dungeons and Dragons. I liked the Forgotten Realms out of all of the settings that are availible. Although I've only been a fan for a few months, and I don't know as much stuff as some of you other people here, I also feel like the setting that I liked is gone, and has been replaced by something like it, but just not exactlt it, if that makes sense.
Alediran 01-14-08, 08:51 AM	I read that article, and I really don't know what to say. I'll tell the truth, I started playing Dungeons and Dragons very recently. I was into MMORPGs before Dungeons and Dragons. I liked the Forgotten Realms out of all of the settings that are availible. Although I've only been a fan for a few months, and I don't know as much stuff as some of you other people here, I also feel like the setting that I liked is gone, and has been replaced by something like it, but just not exactlt it, if that makes sense. That just proves you don't need to be an expert to feel that what WotC is doing is completely illogical (and to play in the realms and have fun). Even my girlfriend (who only knows what she saw during my campaign) feels it's a slopy job. And don't worry about knowing little, keep coming back to these boards and before you know, the realms will be like a second home to you.
yarethon 01-14-08, 09:23 AM	The 2nd time Shade was still in the Shadow Planes. Ya mean the 3rd time? Maybe it did fall? Maybe many shades knew what was going to happen and left. Sorry, my mistake. I was tired. I meant the third time.
Rauric 01-14-08, 09:34 AM	No worries. I think they have a plan for your question. The first two times Mystra came back, so maybe the third time they do something different to make it last a bit longer. Since shadow weave powers the Shades home maybe it takes a bit longer for the city to feel the effects.
yarethon 01-14-08, 09:59 AM	Yeah I just saw R.Baker comment on that. I feel better that at least, it seems, they plan explain that.
Derren S. 01-14-08, 10:32 AM	Might I suggest something? Many people here voiced that they can't understand this "FR too complex for beginners". The problem is that you (those people) are not beginners yourself but experienced players and maybe even veterans. So it is not surprising that you don't understand why it would be complex for beginners (The same happens to me with things like grappling and AoOs. I also can't understand why many people think they are too complex because I used them for years by now). So I suggest that to get a feeling for this complain why don't you try to understand a other complex setting you are not familiar with? I know that Shadowrun has some very complex stories. I don't expect anyone to actually spend money on it, just ask on shadowrun boards for explanations about the relations between the Corps and persons etc. You will see that understanding the setting is one thing, but delving into all the lore since 1st edition is very hard as you practically need every rulebook for it (All Shadowrun rulebooks contain also fluff about the story in the form of runners talking to each other.) While some new players are contend with ignoring all this stuff some are not. And those players are the one which are turned away by an excess of fluff which they think is required to really play the game.
Rauric 01-14-08, 10:40 AM	Many D&D "vets" I know are not big fans of the Realms but now play EB. I find the reason is that they have not had good experiences in the Realms. The weird thing is that they said now that they would give it another shot after the time jump. Who knows? I guess we will see in Aug what happens.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 10:44 AM	Might I suggest something? Many people here voiced that they can't understand this "FR too complex for beginners". The problem is that you (those people) are not beginners yourself but experienced players and maybe even veterans. So it is not surprising that you don't understand why it would be complex for beginners (The same happens to me with things like grappling and AoOs. I also can't understand why many people think they are too complex because I used them for years by now). -We all started at the same point when we first were introduced to the Realms: Tabula Rasa. -When I first was introduced to the setting, via reading Homeland and my DM accidentally buying Faiths and Pantheons instead of Deities and Demigods, I was intrigued, and wanted to know more. Thus, I was given a copy of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. From there, I purchased another book (Races of Faerûn, I think), and downloaded most of the free downloads offered by the WotC website. So, why wasn't I confused, overwhelmed and upset when I was first introduced to the setting? Being as I was once, not too long ago, completely clueless, I find it extremely mindboggling to say that the bevy of information availible blocks people from entering into and enjoying the setting.
Derren S. 01-14-08, 10:53 AM	-We all started at the same point when we first were introduced to the Realms: Tabula Rasa. -When I first was introduced to the setting, via reading Homeland and my DM accidentally buying Faiths and Pantheons instead of Deities and Demigods, I was intrigued, and wanted to know more. Thus, I was given a copy of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. From there, I purchased another book (Races of Faerûn, I think), and downloaded most of the free downloads offered by the WotC website. So, why wasn't I confused, overwhelmed and upset when I was first introduced to the setting? Being as I was once, not too long ago, completely clueless, I find it extremely mindboggling to say that the bevy of information availible blocks people from entering into and enjoying the setting. To be honest, I didn't expect that you only came to FR in 3E. When I see what you post I assumed you are FR fan since 2nd edition. And those are the people which I made this suggestion to. People who started playing in the realms in 2E, own (nearly) every book and know nearly all stories and subplots in the realms. For them its easy because they learned it bit by bit but the new players are possibly overwhelmed by all the information they think are required to play the FR correctly (happens most often if a already experienced FR player/novel reader is in the same group).
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 11:03 AM	To be honest, I didn't expect that you only came to FR in 3E. When I see what you post I assumed you are FR fan since 2nd edition. -Nope. I first started playing D&D in like 2002, and first got into the Realms either late 2002 or early 2003. I joined the boards shortly thereafter, when I found out they existed. And those are the people which I made this suggestion to. People who started playing in the realms in 2E, own (nearly) every book and know nearly all stories and subplots in the realms. For them its easy because they learned it bit by bit but the new players are possibly overwhelmed by all the information they think are required to play the FR correctly (happens most often if a already experienced FR player/novel reader is in the same group). -In my opinion, that 'excuse' is nearly always a cop out for laziness. As demonstrated by my own 'story', one doesn't need to have been a fan "since the beginning", or "for decades", or whatever, to learn the superficial and deeper points of the setting. It's not something that you learn overnight, but it's not impossible, either. You sit back, you read your books, you do whatever it is you gotta do to learn whatever it is you want to learn. Metaphorically looking at what's availible and throwing a fit, saying, "That's too much" just doesn't float it, in my book. That's just called laziness. Everything you need to start a campaign is in the FRCS. Anything extra is included in the many supplements (that's why they are called supplements- they supplement the main body of text!) that are availible- one must actually peruse them to gain anything useful from them. And, now I'm rambling...
Alediran 01-14-08, 11:07 AM	To be honest, I didn't expect that you only came to FR in 3E. When I see what you post I assumed you are FR fan since 2nd edition. And those are the people which I made this suggestion to. People who started playing in the realms in 2E, own (nearly) every book and know nearly all stories and subplots in the realms. For them its easy because they learned it bit by bit but the new players are possibly overwhelmed by all the information they think are required to play the FR correctly (happens most often if a already experienced FR player/novel reader is in the same group). I'm a 3ed player too. I started with NWN in 2002 and some time after that I aquired the FRCS. Now I have all 2ed FR books and all 3ed FR books (except those I think they are useless, like Mysteries of the Moonsea) -Nope. I first started playing D&D in like 2002, and first got into the Realms either late 2002 or early 2003. I joined the boards shortly thereafter, when I found out they existed. Me too. Except I joined the boards during 2005 and lurked for almost a year before starting to post. And my brother started at the same time I did (we even discussed Realmslore and created a persisten word for NWN based on FR while I was still living with my family). And one of my players met the realms when I began my campaign, now he is trying to surpass me in Realmslore knowledge. -In my opinion, that 'excuse' is nearly always a cop out for laziness. As demonstrated by my own 'story', one doesn't need to have been a fan "since the beginning", or "for decades", or whatever, to learn the superficial and deeper points of the setting. It's not something that you learn overnight, but it's not impossible, either. You sit back, you read your books, you do whatever it is you gotta do to learn whatever it is you want to learn. Metaphorically looking at what's availible and throwing a fit, saying, "That's too much" just doesn't float it, in my book. That's just called laziness. Everything you need to start a campaign is in the FRCS. Anything extra is included in the many supplements (that's why they are called supplements- they supplement the main body of text!) that are availible- one must actually peruse them to gain anything useful from them. And, now I'm rambling... I completely agree with all this. As you can see Derren, there are many people who love the realms, play on it, learn it who don't have that much years on it and can understand them almost as good as true veterans. I learned A LOT since I began to surf these boards.
Derren S. 01-14-08, 11:12 AM	Yes, but most people are lazy when it comes to such a hobby. I would also liked it more if my previous SR group would have used all the official, but hard to fully understand SR lore about the Corps etc. but they didn't wanted to learn it. I then dropped the issue even though the SR world didn't felt real to me as so much was missing. If I had insisted on including all this information I would probably have been kicked out or the group would have dissolved entirely. And I think the same might happen to new FR groups. D&D can't thrive only on people who are willing invest heavily (both time and money) into their hobby because, even though they invest much money, there are simply too few of them. As World of Warcraft and teh Wii console has shown, the real money lies with the casual players.
Alediran 01-14-08, 11:15 AM	Yes, but most people are lazy when it comes to such a hobby. I would also liked it more if my previous SR group would have used all the official, but hard to fully understand SR lore about the Corps etc. but they didn't wanted to learn it. I then dropped the issue even though the SR world didn't felt real to me as so much was missing. If I had insisted on including all this information I would probably have been kicked out or the group would have dissolved entirely. And I think the same might happen to new FR groups. I found that the best way to make players read the lore is to subtly give them hints that they will enjoy the game more if they know about it. That's why I'm playing Alediran while DMing my campaign. I use him as a tool to show them the realms bit by bit (except for my girlfriend, who refuses to read anything I give her, no matter if it's the realms or something else :P)
Rauric 01-14-08, 11:19 AM	LK, maybe your right. On the other hand maybe the Realms was only geared to people who like lots of info and Lore about a setting. Maybe it was designed like that or just became that way. Maybe that design has scared people off through the years. Perhaps it made more casual players go elsewhere because of an irrantional dislike or fear of the setting. So perhaps WOTC wishes to change that. Perhaps sales are slipping while sales in another setting are stronger. I am not sure and have no details so who knows? I am just speculating but they seem like probable reasons right? There may be more casual than hardcore players lets say. Many of them don't want to worry about lore they just want to play. They also may stay clear of something that they think is geared to other types of gamers. They may not be willing to change right away or even at all. So should WOTC create products for them or harcore players who probably will buy the newer gaming products anyway because of some compulsory need to buy PRG products? This too is just some speculation.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 11:19 AM	Me too. Except I joined the boards during 2005 and lurked for almost a year before starting to post. And my brother started at the same time I did (we even discussed Realmslore and created a persisten word for NWN based on FR while I was still living with my family). And one of my players met the realms when I began my campaign, now he is trying to surpass me in Realmslore knowledge. -I think that's crazy that you had a brother. I never even realized. -And, if he's trying to surpass you, I think you know what you have to do. :emp: Yes, but most people are lazy when it comes to such a hobby. -Probably. -But, since when was laziness an excuse? "There was too much information in that textbook, so if I get a bad grade on this test, it's not my fault". "This teacher talks too much, so if I don't do good in the course, it's not my fault". Heh, what would happen if you came home, and tried to pass those excuses to your parents for doing bad on said test, or said course. -If people are going to be lazy, that's fine. They have all the right in the world to be lazy. But, they shouldn't blame others (in this point, the setting itself, or the supplements that compose it) for their laziness.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 11:22 AM	LK, maybe your right. On the other hand maybe the Realms was only geared to people who like lots of info and Lore about a setting. -The fact that there are fans who specifically say that they were never too big on details such as NPCs, or novel events, or what have you seems to defeat this notion. -It's your (general) campaign and your (general) hobby. You can absorb/learn as much and as little as you like with 'no harm done'.
Derren S. 01-14-08, 11:32 AM	-But, since when was laziness an excuse? "There was too much information in that textbook, so if I get a bad grade on this test, it's not my fault". "This teacher talks too much, so if I don't do good in the course, it's not my fault". Heh, what would happen if you came home, and tried to pass those excuses to your parents for doing bad on said test, or said course. -If people are going to be lazy, that's fine. They have all the right in the world to be lazy. But, they shouldn't blame others (in this point, the setting itself, or the supplements that compose it) for their laziness. Laziness is no excuse. If anything it is a reason. While WotC might like it, no one is forced to play FR so people don't have to make up excuses why they don't. WotC is the one who wants (needs) to sell their books, so they have to cater the possible customers, not the other way around. And when a large part of those customers are lazy and don't want to (in their eyes) be forced to read through all this history stuff but instead want flash events, a wilderness where their characters are the heroes and not surpassed by some NPC or want to play humanoid dragons then WotC has to give in to some extend, otherwise they will loose money and slowly die.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 11:41 AM	WotC is the one who wants (needs) to sell their books, so they have to cater the possible customers, not the other way around. And when a large part of those customers are lazy and don't want to (in their eyes) be forced to read through all this history stuff but instead want flash events, a wilderness where their characters are the heroes and not surpassed by some NPC or want to play humanoid dragons then WotC has to give in to some extend, otherwise they will loose money and slowly die. -They could have saved themselves a lot of time, effort and grief by, instead of doing much of what they are doing, they emphasized in the 4e FRCS that you don't need every single book to play, or that NPCs don't belong to some secret club that no PC will ever be good enough to join,, or that Humanoid Dragons existed (Dragonkin). -I mean, what's done is done, but why buy a new car when you just need to get a tune up? I don't think that's a very good analogy, but at this point, I'm shot, and can't think up any other good ones, so you'll have to excuse me.
Alediran 01-14-08, 11:44 AM	Laziness is no excuse. If anything it is a reason. While WotC might like it, no one is forced to play FR so people don't have to make up excuses why they don't. WotC is the one who wants (needs) to sell their books, so they have to cater the possible customers, not the other way around. And when a large part of those customers are lazy and don't want to (in their eyes) be forced to read through all this history stuff but instead want flash events, a wilderness where their characters are the heroes and not surpassed by some NPC or want to play humanoid dragons then WotC has to give in to some extend, otherwise they will loose money and slowly die. That is why Eberron was a good idea, they gave people who don't want to study a setting that is lighter. And that is why I belive they didn't need to change the realms, because with both settings we have a greater coverage of people desires (and they even should make a third setting with those concepts that don't fit neither the realms nor eberron).
Derren S. 01-14-08, 11:49 AM	-They could have saved themselves a lot of time, effort and grief by, instead of doing much of what they are doing, they emphasized in the 4e FRCS that you don't need every single book to play, or that NPCs don't belong to some secret club that no PC will ever be good enough to join,, or that Humanoid Dragons existed (Dragonkin). That assumes that those persons even buy the FRCS which is rather unlikely. But like it was reported several times now such players start to get interested when they hear the big changes in the realms. Also just writing this sentence into the book doesn't do much as the feeling is still there. Especially when you have to play with someone who has read a lot of FR novels and always brings it up when something doesn't go by the novel. Of course you can tell him to shut up but that doesn't helps for long. That is why Eberron was a good idea, they gave people who don't want to study a setting that is lighter. And that is why I belive they didn't need to change the realms, because with both settings we have a greater coverage of people desires (and they even should make a third setting with those concepts that don't fit neither the realms nor eberron). The problem is that Eberron is very special. Most casual players who associate normal fantasy with LotR and WoW (although WoW does contain several things close to Eberron) would not like it. FR is the prominent D&D world, especially after the success of Neverwinter Nights and all the FR novels. If someone outside D&D wants to start playing, he most likely looks at FR first. Imo it would likely have been better to make PoL into an actual setting, but that might have spread out the player base too thin or whatever.
Rauric 01-14-08, 11:58 AM	Sigh. Some people post on the boards saying they ignore the canon or lore doesn't get in the way. The boards are not a good way to determine a standard of something. Sme people can deal with the npc/lore issue some cannot. There may be a larger group of can'ts rather than cans. WOTC may be looking to grab as many can'ts as possible. I am sure they do not want to lose any current fans either.
Alediran 01-14-08, 12:02 PM	Sigh. Some people post on the boards saying they ignore the canon or lore doesn't get in the way. The boards are not a good way to determine a standard of something. Sme people can deal with the npc/lore issue some cannot. There may be a larger group of can'ts rather than cans. WOTC may be looking to grab as many can'ts as possible. I am sure they do not want to lose any current fans either. They can acomplish that by presenting the realms in a different way, without needing to hack everything appart. They need to do more sidebars like Concerns of the Mighty.
gomeztoo 01-14-08, 12:08 PM	Actually the best way to do that is to not bring out a setting book that takes several weeks to go through. I mean, I like that. Mucho stuff to read and play connect-the-dots with. But some don't, and if you wish to cater to them, you just need a 'light' version of the setting book.
Rauric 01-14-08, 12:08 PM	Sidebars did not work for 3e. Alot of people still bring up the same old tired cliches. Hence the "drastic" changes. Alot of Loremasters will sit around and complain and say "it is like Eberron now". The people who didn't buy FR may go "Really? I like Eberron." Or they may go "FR changed alot of what I didn't like? Hmmmm..." Or it might fail. Again I think this risk was done for a reason that had to do with sales. Why fix FR if it was such a cash cow for them? Reason: it wasn't as muc of a cash cow as it was in the past perhaps.
Alediran 01-14-08, 12:10 PM	Why fix FR if it was such a cash cow for them? Reason: it wasn't as muc of a cash cow as it was in the past perhaps. And who are to blame for the drop in sales? WotC is the only responsible for that by not giving quality supplements (which ironically those who were did sold)
Kenzuki 01-14-08, 12:20 PM	The only person who really needs to know bit of Realmslore is the Dungeon Master, everyone else can just follow his lead imo. That's what I did when I played. Twas fun and I'm sad that I had to move to a place where I can't find anyone who plays the game plus I'm on third shift now....
Derren S. 01-14-08, 12:27 PM	And who are to blame for the drop in sales? WotC is the only responsible for that by not giving quality supplements (which ironically those who were did sold) I don't think that "quality supplements", which also costs much more to make them, would have increased the profit by a big amount.
Rauric 01-14-08, 12:45 PM	And who are to blame for the drop in sales? WotC is the only responsible for that by not giving quality supplements (which ironically those who were did sold) You mentioned one supplement out of four that was poor in quality, at least in your opinion. Is it poor supplements or a lack of interest in gamers? Or both? I buy EB and FR but not everybody does. Some fans of both setting may only choose one to buy. That could have caused problems as well.
Alediran 01-14-08, 12:55 PM	You mentioned one supplement out of four that was poor in quality, at least in your opinion. Is it poor supplements or a lack of interest in gamers? Or both? I buy EB and FR but not everybody does. Some fans of both setting may only choose one to buy. That could have caused problems as well. That was one of the things that many said when Eberron was published, that it would diminish FR sales, causing something bad to it.
msatran 01-14-08, 12:55 PM	Well, it's not just that. FR fans are turned off by too much crunch, as well as big modules. And for the last year, instead of getting real data, we got big modules. Mysteries of the Moonsea? Garbage. Cormyr, Shadowdale, Anauroch? More garbage. And what lore we DID get out of those sourcebooks was immaterial because we had to watch our world get wrecked by adventure designers who were planning on erasing all the lore in the first place and replacing it with something else. Because the last book in the Farthest Reach trilogy came out before Mysteries of the Moonsea, we already knew that 1/4 of the information in the book was effectively useless. This is called poor planning. Now and forever, what does Hillsfar look like now? Who governs it? Who did Fzoul appoint? Do we know? If those four books had been devoted to regional sourcebooks instead of big modules, they could have covered everything and we probably would have been a whole lot happier. Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan? Our information is totally and completely out of date. The Dragon Coast? Did anyone ever print a supplement on this area? I actually don't think so. The sum total of lore on Mulholrand and Unther since second edition was a little bit in Dragons of Faerun and one article by Brian R. James in Dragon Magazine. (Thanks, Brian, I really liked that) What little information we have on Chult comes from two novels I would really rather forget. Let's face it, Forgotten Realms fans. We got knifed in the back.
Rauric 01-14-08, 01:08 PM	I do agree that Mysteries and those 3 modules were total let downs. Other 3E products were bette reads for me. Any FR adventure has turned me off though even the older edition versions. I like the smaller adventures anyway since I run a more freeform game. I do not like 1-20 games much.
msatran 01-14-08, 01:10 PM	Not all of my games are planned to 20, but most of them find a way to get there somehow.
Rauric 01-14-08, 01:12 PM	I meant adventures that take you to 1-20, not campaigns. I would like to take my players to higher levels eventually.
msatran 01-14-08, 01:15 PM	Well, I started doing that when I realized that there was so much war going on in 1374 and 1375 that I needed adventures that were more militaristic and military oriented. I've already told my gamers that 1382 is the year that Grand History effectively stops for us. I can deal with famine and weather conditions and Obox ob and a lot of that other stuff. But chances are, by the time we hit 1382, we'll be well into 5th edition with the way these guys do things. Who knows? Maybe the rights will have reverted to Ed by then and things won't be so bad.
Rauric 01-14-08, 01:22 PM	Remeber Ed was not the sole creator ofthe Realms we know. Lots of people helped make 2e. Lots of Lore that you may love may come from other folks. Of course they have most likely moved on to other things. Just saying an Ed only Realms might not be something that may think it will be. It might be great though or a sad disapointment.
msatran 01-14-08, 01:27 PM	Oh, you're right about that, but it's got to be better than Mad Max Beyond The Forgotten Realms.
Rauric 01-14-08, 01:34 PM	C'mon, it is no mad max. Civilation is still there. Lots of places that casual FR fans never used though were turned around a bit. Though Eds game does sound more like your thing though. I actually as long as his stuff doesn't read like many of his novels I think I would be down with it as well. Again Ed doing it by himself is an unknown factor. He has always had other people helping with the whole game aspect, and that is important as well.
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 01:56 PM	Thats the problem - civilization IS still there, and there seems to actually be much more of it, not less. Points of Light is a sham - what they did did not increase or lessen the amounts or types of encounters possible - all it did was change it into the designers own personal visions. Four very disparate visions. It just looks like a mess to me - I'm sorry. I'm not saying it's bad, and I'm certainly not saying it's good, but what I am saying is that not enough was changed to make it more interesting, while at the same time too much was changed to keep the old gaurd happy. The whole thing appears to have been a useless endeavor, IMHO. Hence the ever-present WHY?! everyone keeps asking.
Rauric 01-14-08, 02:02 PM	So you also agree it is no Mad Max barren wasteland? POL was meant for the "core" game I believe. The realms are so big that a little kingdom expansion cannot hurt it, there are tons of open spaces that are not settled. Saying otherwise is just not true. Civilization was never a problem before, why is it now?
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 02:08 PM	The Plagued Lands do give the impression of that 'Mad Max' feel (dervitive of the Mournland and 1/2 dozen other settings I can think of, including Rokugon's Shadowlands). But people DON'T have to lead their PCs there, so if you don't want all that psuedo-natural freakiness in your game, just avoid those regions. However, it seems that a lot of the empty spaces were 'filled in', not made larger. The east looks lke a group of super-powers buttin' heads, and in the west we have all the old stuff PLUS the new Orc Kingdom. It seems the only adventuring places left will be in those weird new plague areas. And, of course, we don't have the big picture yet. :rolleyes: I'll tell you one thing - Halrua becoming a bunch of Mercs is completely bizarre, IMHO.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-14-08, 03:14 PM	It's unreasonable, though, for any company with half a brain to expect their customers to have to "catch up" on their own buy buying out of print books. Right...but once again, I have to reiterate that the desire to accumulate and absorb all that information is self-imposed. I still believe that while all that lore is nice to know, it's not necessary to run a great Realms game.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-14-08, 03:44 PM	Mr_Miscellany addressed this issue beautifully: "It's unreasonable, though, for any company with half a brain to expect their customers to have to "catch up" on their own buy buying out of print books." Players and DMs shouldn't need to be set up to date with the Realms by searching for Realms material from disparate and discontinued sources. For this to be true at any level, every edition of the game should be complete in the sense that it offers sufficient information to keep players and DMs informed of what's going on. If the Realms don't move forward significantly, every edition will end up simply reprinting old material with shiny new rulesets. You know, I actually was trying to help you out a bit by telling you about nobleknight.com.:rolleyes: You had trouble obtaining certain books, and I offered a solution. Sorry I bothered. As for what Misc said, see my above post. You don't NEED out-of-print books to run a fun Realms game. If you want to obtain the out-of-print books, that's wonderful, but that is also a self-imposed desire, not something anyone is forcing you to do.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-14-08, 03:55 PM	So far it does not seem so apocalyptic. Many well known cities are still around, same with regions and kingdoms. Does a setting need to be "Mad Max" to be considered post-apocalyptic? If the spellplague isn't considered a apocalypse, I don't know what is (ie. dictionary.com's non-Judeo-Christian/religious definition is "any universal or widespread destruction or disaster"). Not that it matters that much, but I don't think it's wrong to call the setting post-apocalyptic just because some politicial entities have survived or even thrived after the Spellplague.
Suin Bahhar 01-14-08, 04:03 PM	I cant supress the boiling feeling of exitement of playing in the realms IN THE FUTURE. Oo *There I said it* The politcal landscape is interesting to say the least. I feared for the red wizards but they have all the time to take advantage of their arcane lore and experimentations to jump back ontop the magical foodchain. Harpers might have had the sense to go to Evermeet or other safeplaces (assuming it remains here). Please fill Fearun with magic, spirit and joy. I feel the spirit is what you make of it. I need to slay me some demons.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-14-08, 04:12 PM	To be honest, I didn't expect that you only came to FR in 3E. When I see what you post I assumed you are FR fan since 2nd edition. That's the trouble with assuming things. Much like some other people, I've "only" been into the Realms for about 7 years now. Not long at all compared to some people around here. I clearly remember being clueless, too. And like LK, I didn't feel overwhelmed for all the history of the Realms--I learned what I know now bit by bit--and that was easy, because I was interested in the setting and wanted to learn as much as possible.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-14-08, 04:17 PM	Yes, but most people are lazy when it comes to such a hobby... D&D can't thrive only on people who are willing invest heavily... I believe it. And that's fine. But if people aren't willing to invest heavily in the setting, why would they care so much about learning all the setting's backstory that they feel "overwhelmed" by it? *That's* the part I don't really get.
Rauric 01-14-08, 04:18 PM	Post-Plague maybe, not postapocalyptic. It is not just "some" societies that survive, but most of them. So yes a setting needs to be Mad Max to be post-apocalyptic. The closest thing we have (or had) in D&D is Dark Sun. Dark Sun is totally different than the world before it. Survival is more important than adventuring, life is harsh on a day to day basis ect. There are some POL spots in FR but there is a ton of civilization also.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-14-08, 04:26 PM	So yes a setting needs to be Mad Max to be post-apocalyptic. Not sure I agree with that...but that's OK.:)
Rauric 01-14-08, 04:34 PM	I just see an apocalypse as a thing that makes the world totally unreconizable as well as a hellhole to survive in. I know people can add some cute little comment about how 4E represents those things, but it really doesn't. It is different than the time before it in many ways, but it is not a total hellhole. Civilization thrives, as does trade and commerce. It is post-plague. If someone loved the NPCs and certain gods and the weave, I guess it can seem a little traumatic and may be a bit Apocalyptic for someone. I do not think it is so post-apocalyptic for the people who live in the Realms though.
The_Shaman 01-14-08, 05:30 PM	Does a setting need to be "Mad Max" to be considered post-apocalyptic? If the spellplague isn't considered a apocalypse, I don't know what is (ie. dictionary.com's non-Judeo-Christian/religious definition is "any universal or widespread destruction or disaster"). I actually considered the Time of Troubles quite the apocalyptic event in any case. This is one of the reason I'm rather sceptic about cramming Realms shaking events one after another.
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 05:32 PM	THIS is post-apocalyptic - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Thundarr_Moon_sm.jpg Sorry, I just love that Pic. :D Anyhow, to clarify something, withour taking any sides - attempting (rather badly) to remain neutral lately. Rinonalyrna is correct in saying that people do not have to know all of the previous lore to play, or even to run a game - everything you need is right in the FRCS. However, what WotC is saying is that people 'think' they need to, so it is that misconception that is stearing the current Realms development. Now, if it were me, I would have spent a whole lot of money re-educatng folks about FR, rather then destroying the good thing they had in order to fit people's false perceptions - people who will still most likely stay away from FR because of some new poorly conceived notion. What they needed to do was release a new FRCS for 4e, with new lore to fill in the time-gap up until 1385 DR, and let the world continue on down the path it was (no crazy god-deaths or Spellplagues). Then they could of done a massive advertising blitz, saying "This isn't your Grandpa's Realms", with some animated shots of a cool battle, and then cut to kids using miniatures and playing the game. THEN, emphasize, in all the ads (every media) that ALL YOU NEED ARE THE CORE BOOKS AND THE FRCS TO PLAY! Never, ever mention previous lore - just pretend FR is something new and exciting, and kids will eat it up. The demographic they are shooting for probably never heard of the Forgotten Realms, so they will basically believe any line of advertising crap you throw at them. They didn't need to change the game, they needed to change people's perceptions. That is where they went wrong.
Scathlock 01-14-08, 05:46 PM	THIS is post-apocalyptic - They didn't need to change the game, they needed to change people's perceptions. That is where they went wrong. :clap: Exactly.
johnkretzer 01-14-08, 05:58 PM	Rinonalyrna is correct in saying that people do not have to know all of the previous lore to play, or even to run a game - everything you need is right in the FRCS. However, what WotC is saying is that people 'think' they need to, so it is that misconception that is stearing the current Realms development. I think the problem is that Rinoalyrn is correct you do only need the FRCS to run the Realms. And that is part of the reason they are doing this because WotC doesn't want people buying one book from them. All that old lore that people could get though websites like nobleknight.com and others WotC doesn't get the money for. Now that old lore is less valueable and the new lore they are coming out with is neccessary.
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 06:04 PM	Excellent point, and one I myself had't thought of. :bow: Considering their recent moves to consolidate their intellectual properties, it does appear that they want FULL contol over any moneys being made.
msatran 01-14-08, 06:28 PM	The old Realms stuff I loved because it WAS Intellectual Property. No offense, this doesn't seem very intellectual to me.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 06:31 PM	That assumes that those persons even buy the FRCS which is rather unlikely. -If someone is interested in the setting, and was thinking about playing a campaign in the Realms, they would need to buy the FRCS. That is the only mandatory book needed to play. Also just writing this sentence into the book doesn't do much as the feeling is still there. Especially when you have to play with someone who has read a lot of FR novels and always brings it up when something doesn't go by the novel. Of course you can tell him to shut up but that doesn't helps for long. -Who says it has to be a sentence? Or a single sidebar? Imo it would likely have been better to make PoL into an actual setting, but that might have spread out the player base too thin or whatever. -I agree. I don't like the pseudosetting lore/setting they are doing for 4e, and what they did sort of with 3e. If they are going to inject specific ideas into race/class archetypes, such as Halflings being river-people, they might as well just expand it all into a setting to support all that.
Lord Karsus 01-14-08, 06:39 PM	However, what WotC is saying is that people 'think' they need to, so it is that misconception that is stearing the current Realms development. Now, if it were me, I would have spent a whole lot of money re-educatng folks about FR, rather then destroying the good thing they had in order to fit people's false perceptions - people who will still most likely stay away from FR because of some new poorly conceived notion. What they needed to do was release a new FRCS for 4e, with new lore to fill in the time-gap up until 1385 DR, and let the world continue on down the path it was (no crazy god-deaths or Spellplagues). Then they could of done a massive advertising blitz, saying "This isn't your Grandpa's Realms", with some animated shots of a cool battle, and then cut to kids using miniatures and playing the game. THEN, emphasize, in all the ads (every media) that ALL YOU NEED ARE THE CORE BOOKS AND THE FRCS TO PLAY! Never, ever mention previous lore - just pretend FR is something new and exciting, and kids will eat it up. The demographic they are shooting for probably never heard of the Forgotten Realms, so they will basically believe any line of advertising crap you throw at them. They didn't need to change the game, they needed to change people's perceptions. That is where they went wrong. -Hence my poor analogy of buying a new car, when all you really need is a blo...er, paintjob. I think the problem is that Rinoalyrn is correct you do only need the FRCS to run the Realms. And that is part of the reason they are doing this because WotC doesn't want people buying one book from them. All that old lore that people could get though websites like nobleknight.com and others WotC doesn't get the money for. Now that old lore is less valueable and the new lore they are coming out with is neccessary. -It makes them money, but in a more roundabout way. The products make the 3rd party money. This causes them to renew their license to sell said products with WotC, making WotC money.
Dark Wizard 01-14-08, 06:51 PM	THIS is post-apocalyptic - Sorry, I just love that Pic. :D Thundarr was an awesome show. They didn't need to change the game, they needed to change people's perceptions. That is where they went wrong. QFT. I've said the same thing for a while now. Even if WotC changes the game setting, they STILL need to change perceptions or else people who traditionally dislike the Realms will simply shift their perceptions against the setting to another set of traits in the setting. "Elminster and Drizzt are still around. The NPCs still dominate the setting!" "FR gods still meddle, they should be like Eberron deities, distant and less definite!" "Cormyr is a ripoff of England!" "Netheril is a ripoff of the Sith and Sauron!" "The Dragon Warriors are so freaking anime! Shining Black Dragon Claw Blade Strike!" "Etc.!"
MarkusTay63 01-14-08, 07:03 PM	Thundarr FTW!!! :dancin: -It makes them money, but in a more roundabout way. The products make the 3rd party money. This causes them to renew their license to sell said products with WotC, making WotC money.However, one almost gets the idea that someone near the top has been looking at what licencesees have been raking in, and decided they didn't want to share the pie anymore - Sarbreenar/UK-RPGN, Paizo/Dragon (& Dungeon), Arthaus/White Wolf, Margeret Weiss/Sovereign Press, etc, etc... They have been spending the last two years (coincidence?) taking back their Intellectual Properties so that they would have exclusive access to their money-making potentials. Problem is, all of those companies/groups had their own little recipes for success, and WotC has no clue how to produce the same quality products they did. What appears on the surface to be a spiteful bid of "If I can't have it, nobody can", in truth is more like not having the talent to back up your ambition. But thats just me, and always see conspiracies where there aren't any... but they're there... I know they are... :incog:
Alediran 01-14-08, 07:16 PM	Just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean they aren't following you.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-14-08, 09:03 PM	I just see an apocalypse as a thing that makes the world totally unreconizable as well as a hellhole to survive in. I know people can add some cute little comment about how 4E represents those things, but it really doesn't. It is different than the time before it in many ways, but it is not a total hellhole. Civilization thrives, as does trade and commerce. It is post-plague. If you loved the NPCs and certain gods and the weave, I guess it can seem a little traumatic and may be a bit Apocalyptic for you. I do not think it is so post-apocalyptic for the people who live in the Realms though. Rauric, I don't appreciate being "analyzed" like that. Please stop, and don't do it again. The bolded part of your quote was totally inappropriate and absurd, and I find it disrespectful. The reason I'm not sure I agree with you is because you are using a narrower definition of "apocalypse" than I was (which, as I mentioned, was taken right out of a dictionary). Conventional (or at least, the most popular?) post-apocalyptic stories tend to take place in settings that are almost completely devasted and people are reduced to barbarism, but I don't think that means all post-apocalyptic stories must be like that.
Marcus Majarra 01-14-08, 11:41 PM	You know, I actually was trying to help you out a bit by telling you about nobleknight.com. You had trouble obtaining certain books, and I offered a solution. Sorry I bothered. As for what Misc said, see my above post. You don't NEED out-of-print books to run a fun Realms game. If you want to obtain the out-of-print books, that's wonderful, but that is also a self-imposed desire, not something anyone is forcing you to do. While I appreciate your willingness to help, my argument was never about finding this stuff for myself, at this point. I do, however, notice some sort of contradiction going on (this is not directed specifically at you, Rinonalyrna). If the additional Realmslore is not necessary to have a fully enjoyable experience of the FR, why is it so crucial to some that the new material cater to this Realmslore? In the end, this additional Realmslore will only be useful insofar as to how the DM chooses to apply it. Let's say, for example, that I'm running a campaign focused on Waterdeep with an assortment of local threats and intrigues. Having access to Unapproachable East will be of little use in my campaign. Sure, I can decide to feature an NPC runescarred berserker for a couple of adventures, to give it a more exotic feel. And if I decide not to use material from the book, then all of its Realmslore ends up being of no consequence and completely irrelevant to my campaign. With the previews I'm getting from 4E, I get the feeling that the same kind of principles will apply, except that the paradigm shift will not only be geographical, but temporal too. For example, if I decide to run a campaign in Tymanther, I could pretty much ignore whatever Unther had to offer and run a good campaign. Or I could dig up information on Unther from older Realmslore, and have the campaign focus on the Gilgeam-Tiamat conflict, and still run a very interesting campaign. I guess that what I'm trying to say is that I find contradictory the notion that 4E will invalidate or diminish the value of existing Realmslore. DMs that want to play into this Realmslore will find a way to do so. I used to have a DM who really liked the Golden Age Myth Drannor lore, and devised a story arc that allowed us to travel to the past and experience this for ourselves. Those were some of my favorite gaming sessions in the entire campaign. The state of affairs in 4E will allow these kinds of story arcs to bring an event greater level of detail. And these aren't the only ways to evoke the current Realmslore in the future Realms. Plots that started long ago could now be coming into fruition, for example.
johnkretzer 01-14-08, 11:57 PM	-It makes them money, but in a more roundabout way. The products make the 3rd party money. This causes them to renew their license to sell said products with WotC, making WotC money. Actualy you missed my point I wasn't talking about 3rd party publishers...I was more refering to buying out of print souce materials. Lets put it this way... Person A buys the the 3rd edition Campaign setting. Person A real likes the Realms and wants more infomation. But Person A has bills to pay or is a youngster so he(or she) has limited resouces to buy new things with. Person A can either buy really expensive books...or go online and either get the older books dirt cheap (or get the PdFs). That person is more likely to buy the older material...and as it has been pointed out before 2nd edition is the best souce for fluff on the Realms so that person is even getting better quality for his(or her) dollar. And WotC is not making the money they want on the souce books they want to have. Though I really think 3rd party publishers wasn't really making WotC as much money as you seem to think if you look at their new OGL rules. Either a company has to pay $5000 to publish things soon(but still about 4 to 6 months away) or have to wait till next year. I really don't think alot of those compainies are going to survive this edition change( especialy with what happened with 3.5). Also in light of their policy of the right to approve everything someone publishes under the new OGL I think they will make sure that the product coming out is second rate at best...(ok maybe I am just a little parniod like Markus there...:incog: ). But I do have a very strong feeling if a person wanted to adapt the old flavor of D&D to the 4th edition rules under the OGL they will be refused...as that is probably their back up plan.
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 12:04 AM	While I appreciate your willingness to help, my argument was never about finding this stuff for myself, at this point. I do, however, notice some sort of contradiction going on (this is not directed specifically at you, Rinonalyrna). If the additional Realmslore is not necessary to have a fully enjoyable experience of the FR, why is it so crucial to some that the new material cater to this Realmslore? In the end, this additional Realmslore will only be useful insofar as to how the DM chooses to apply it. Let's say, for example, that I'm running a campaign focused on Waterdeep with an assortment of local threats and intrigues. Having access to Unapproachable East will be of little use in my campaign. Sure, I can decide to feature an NPC runescarred berserker for a couple of adventures, to give it a more exotic feel. And if I decide not to use material from the book, then all of its Realmslore ends up being of no consequence and completely irrelevant to my campaign. With the previews I'm getting from 4E, I get the feeling that the same kind of principles will apply, except that the paradigm shift will not only be geographical, but temporal too. For example, if I decide to run a campaign in Tymanther, I could pretty much ignore whatever Unther had to offer and run a good campaign. Or I could dig up information on Unther from older Realmslore, and have the campaign focus on the Gilgeam-Tiamat conflict, and still run a very interesting campaign. I guess that what I'm trying to say is that I find contradictory the notion that 4E will invalidate or diminish the value of existing Realmslore. DMs that want to play into this Realmslore will find a way to do so. I used to have a DM who really liked the Golden Age Myth Drannor lore, and devised a story arc that allowed us to travel to the past and experience this for ourselves. Those were some of my favorite gaming sessions in the entire campaign. The state of affairs in 4E will allow these kinds of story arcs to bring an event greater level of detail. And these aren't the only ways to evoke the current Realmslore in the future Realms. Plots that started long ago could now be coming into fruition, for example. You are right except some of us aren't done with the Realms currently...like those plots that came to fruition to bring about those changes we are still playing with...some of them have just came out of the blue in novels(like the whole Sembia-Shade mess). And their ending are in question. You are right in the end it really doesn't matter what they do...I am just dissapointment I was hoping that the Realms would grow more logicaly...and slowly.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 12:41 AM	Actualy you missed my point I wasn't talking about 3rd party publishers...I was more refering to buying out of print souce materials. Lets put it this way... Person A buys the the 3rd edition Campaign setting. Person A real likes the Realms and wants more infomation. But Person A has bills to pay or is a youngster so he(or she) has limited resouces to buy new things with. Person A can either buy really expensive books...or go online and either get the older books dirt cheap (or get the PdFs). That person is more likely to buy the older material...and as it has been pointed out before 2nd edition is the best souce for fluff on the Realms so that person is even getting better quality for his(or her) dollar. And WotC is not making the money they want on the souce books they want to have. The 3rd Party Retailers still need to buy the products they are selling from WotC, or get licensed to sell their products, etc, so money is still finding it's way into WotC's account. Though I really think 3rd party publishers wasn't really making WotC as much money as you seem to think if you look at their new OGL rules. Either a company has to pay $5000 to publish things soon(but still about 4 to 6 months away) or have to wait till next year. I really don't think alot of those compainies are going to survive this edition change( especialy with what happened with 3.5). Also in light of their policy of the right to approve everything someone publishes under the new OGL I think they will make sure that the product coming out is second rate at best...(ok maybe I am just a little parniod like Markus there...:incog: ). But I do have a very strong feeling if a person wanted to adapt the old flavor of D&D to the 4th edition rules under the OGL they will be refused...as that is probably their back up plan. -No, I didn't miss your point. You misunderstood mine. I wasn't talking about 3rd Party Publishers. I was talking about 3rd Party Retailers, such as Paizo.com, Nobleknight.com, RPGNow.com, Barnes & Noble, etc. Because they get the product from WotC at wholesale, and then sell it to you, at retail, they are a 3rd Party Retailer. Buying things directly from WotC would make WotC the 1st Party Retailer, and get rid of the 3rd Party Retailer.
Marcus Majarra 01-15-08, 01:09 AM	You are right except some of us aren't done with the Realms currently...like those plots that came to fruition to bring about those changes we are still playing with...some of them have just came out of the blue in novels(like the whole Sembia-Shade mess). And their ending are in question. You are right in the end it really doesn't matter what they do...I am just dissapointment I was hoping that the Realms would grow more logicaly...and slowly. I think that last sentence might actually be closer to what's bogging a lot of Realms fans. Whether the Realms are growing logically or not could be highly debatable. I mean, Cyric has been dead-set on taking out Mystra since BEFORE either of them ascended to godhood. I'm not surprised he succeeded, what with how he ended up at the end of The Crucible. That novel was just awesome. And Malik, too. Gotta love Malik! Silly little cuckold! The biggest problem with growing slowly, I would guess, is that you eventually run out of sufficiently generalistic material to publish. I don't think the fans would be very receptive of WotC reprinting old material just to fill out 4E's FR bookshelves. Advancing the timeline significantly is a good way to keep fleshing out the Realms and having them evolve. Could they have done it differently? The most certainly could've. In any case, as it's been stated many times in this thread, you can still play with the current Realms until you're satisified. Just like another dedicated Realms fan could keep playing in the Crown Wars era until satisfied. I reiterate my confidence that fan support will provide conversion material for older fluff, just like I'm sure the older fluff will play an important role in how the Realms are shaping up, in the light of the Spellplague.
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 01:42 AM	-No, I didn't miss your point. You misunderstood mine. I wasn't talking about 3rd Party Publishers. I was talking about 3rd Party Retailers, such as Paizo.com, Nobleknight.com, RPGNow.com, Barnes & Noble, etc. Because they get the product from WotC at wholesale, and then sell it to you, at retail, they are a 3rd Party Retailer. Buying things directly from WotC would make WotC the 1st Party Retailer, and get rid of the 3rd Party Retailer. I think we are talking about different things here...I am talking about out of print books here. The companies who sell those don't pay a dime to WotC to do so. And I think alot of Realm's fan are buying those books instead of WotC FR books. That was my point...
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 01:47 AM	I think that last sentence might actually be closer to what's bogging a lot of Realms fans. Whether the Realms are growing logically or not could be highly debatable. I mean, Cyric has been dead-set on taking out Mystra since BEFORE either of them ascended to godhood. I'm not surprised he succeeded, what with how he ended up at the end of The Crucible. That novel was just awesome. And Malik, too. Gotta love Malik! Silly little cuckold! The biggest problem with growing slowly, I would guess, is that you eventually run out of sufficiently generalistic material to publish. I don't think the fans would be very receptive of WotC reprinting old material just to fill out 4E's FR bookshelves. Advancing the timeline significantly is a good way to keep fleshing out the Realms and having them evolve. Could they have done it differently? The most certainly could've. In any case, as it's been stated many times in this thread, you can still play with the current Realms until you're satisified. Just like another dedicated Realms fan could keep playing in the Crown Wars era until satisfied. I reiterate my confidence that fan support will provide conversion material for older fluff, just like I'm sure the older fluff will play an important role in how the Realms are shaping up, in the light of the Spellplague. It could also be just as logical that Mystra kills Cyric...and of the two characters I would have perfered that ending...but that is just me. In the long run you are right I and others will just completely ignore the New FR like it was Highlander 2. It is my hope that WotC provide the conversion to it...IE. come out with Classic D&D and the Classic Realms w/ 4th edition rules. That would make me happy. But again you are right we can probably either convert or find conversion online for the old flavor for 4th edition...or barring that just stick with 3.x.
msatran 01-15-08, 02:29 AM	The other thing I really hate is "Baldur's Gate. City of Retards." I loved all the old info on the Gate, it was one of my favorite cities. They turned it into lack of law enforcement incompetence land. Neighborhood gangs. Racially blockaded setups. May Lord Eltan turn over in his grave, rise from it, and kill them all.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 03:09 AM	I hear there is going to be a gang of Vampires, called the 'Bloods', and another gang of Mongrelmen called 'The Crips". Okay... that was REALLY bad... I need to go to sleep... :zzz:
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 03:09 AM	I think we are talking about different things here...I am talking about out of print books here. The companies who sell those don't pay a dime to WotC to do so. And I think alot of Realm's fan are buying those books instead of WotC FR books. That was my point... -I am talking about out-of-print books, that are then sold as PDFs.
Mr_Miscellany 01-15-08, 03:22 AM	If the additional Realmslore is not necessary to have a fully enjoyable experience of the FR, why is it so crucial to some that the new material cater to this Realmslore? I was just going to ask this, but though the current crop of regulars incapable of seeing the painfully obvious contradiction for what it was. Let's hope your judgement of them is better than mine. ::::::::::: The 3E FRCS was designed to give a minimal introduction to all parts of the Realms, without also reinforcing the idea that DMs and players needed to know the reams of lore that much of its material (including mechanics, believe it or not) was drawn from. It provided a clean break, IMO, for new DMs to get started from. Eight years ago, though well versed in most things FR, I too was a new DM (from a "new to 3E perspective") and found the 3E FRCS a welcome tool; the first of many such useful 3E FR books. What the other new DMs lacked that I did not was a body of knowledge about the Realms. I think many new DMs quickly perceived that there as more out there. These forums certainly reinforced that fact, by constantly and unfairly degrading the 3E books as "empty of that 'FR Feel'" and by pointing people the 2E and older products available online. In fact, several of the people now saying one doesn't need more than the FRCS to run a good FR game have given such encouragment --and often at that. This is why I've always felt that the regulars here were as much or more so interested in complaining just to complain as they ever were truly interested in supporting the Realms. When I see people post that they never even play in an FR game, then watch them go on to level heavy handed opinions about the setting changes...well it just makes me shake my head in disbelief. But, whatever. Tonight I told a 40 something player in my game about the timeline advancement and you know what he said? It wasn't, "That sucks!" It wasn't, "Oh God, our campaign is ruined! Waaaaaaaa." It was, "Dude, don't go slow anymore. I want to see what happens NOW!" Yes, 40 year old men can get excited, 'let their hair down' and say things like dude. Maybe that's because they know how to have fun without getting overly wrapped up in it.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 03:28 AM	If you go too fast, and try to get to the new campaign year, won't most of your player's PCs die? :confused: {I'm being serious here - I'm just curious}
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 03:33 AM	I was just going to ask this, but though the current crop of regulars incapable of seeing the painfully obvious contradiction for what it was. Let's hope your judgement of them is better than mine. ::::::::::: The 3E FRCS was designed to give a minimal introduction to all parts of the Realms, without also reinforcing the idea that DMs and players needed to know the reams of lore that much of its material (including mechanics, believe it or not) was drawn from. It provided a clean break, IMO, for new DMs to get started from. Eight years ago, though well versed in most things FR, I too was a new DM (from a "new to 3E perspective") and found the 3E FRCS a welcome tool; the first of many such useful 3E FR books. What the other new DMs lacked that I did not was a body of knowledge about the Realms. I think many new DMs quickly perceived that there as more out there. These forums certainly reinforced that fact, by constantly and unfairly degrading the 3E books as "empty of that 'FR Feel'" and by pointing people the 2E and older products available online. In fact, several of the people now saying one doesn't need more than the FRCS to run a good FR game have given such encouragment --and often at that. This is why I've always felt that the regulars here were as much or more so interested in complaining just to complain as they ever were truly interested in supporting the Realms. When I see people post that they never even play in an FR game, then watch them go on to level heavy handed opinions about the setting changes...well it just makes me shake my head in disbelief. But, whatever. Tonight I told a 40 something player in my game about the timeline advancement and you know what he said? It wasn't, "That sucks!" It wasn't, "Oh God, our campaign is ruined! Waaaaaaaa." It was, "Dude, don't go slow anymore. I want to see what happens NOW!" Yes, 40 year old men can get excited, 'let their hair down' and say things like dude. Maybe that's because they know how to have fun without getting overly wrapped up in it. I know a 18 year old who just got introduced to the Realms and was explained and read about the timeline advance...you want to know his response was.... It wasn't "Cool" It wasn't "Awesome" It wasn't," {insert whatever tag word WotC like uasing to seem hip} It was," Wow that sucked." I guess age is really not that big of judgement on who likes the changes and who doesn't.
Mr_Miscellany 01-15-08, 03:39 AM	-That's a common practice. For gaming products? Personally, I only buy Ex Machina in graphic novel format because I prefer it that way. But what's done for comic books (including combining issue arcs into graphic novels) is one thing, gaming is something else. The more time I spend searching online and in auctions for old products, the less time I spend planning and gaming. I don't want to have to purchase or go through a backlog of old, out of print products just to get teh gaming material I need to run a Realms game. And again, before someone says, "You don't need the old stuff!" I will once again point out that, over and over, countless of you (including those long gone or who were banned) have stated numerous times that all 3E products are just poor 2E reprints, and/or that the 2E stuff is better, so if anyone wants a true Realms feel they should get the old stuff. Anyone willing to own up to that? Hmmm? Gods above I wish I hadn't deleted my old, early 2002 to 2005 file of stupid, repetitive complaints. It'd be eye opening just to see how many people's attitudes towards 3E miraculously and instantly changed for the better the moment they discovered something new and shiny to hate. :rolleyes:
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 03:40 AM	If the additional Realmslore is not necessary to have a fully enjoyable experience of the FR, why is it so crucial to some that the new material cater to this Realmslore? I realize something about this when Mr. Misc. quoted it. I don't think anybody is saying it should be crucial...it should atleast be consistent though. The problem with the Shadow Weave or the Weave itself..it was that everytime they wrote it a soucebook the rules changed because it didn't work with their plans. My answear to that is the people who can't write with very simple rules of the world should never have tried to do in the first place. I am not saying this to insult them, but they could have find writers more capable of this. They are also just getting rid of alot of lore like High level NPCs and gods, and ending conflicts. Those actions really does make that lore obsolete.
Mr_Miscellany 01-15-08, 03:49 AM	I guess age is really not that big of judgment on who likes the changes and who doesn't. Oh I dunno....I think people just getting into the setting are going to be caught off guard, especially if they're in a really good game, and will probably say they don't like/don't care for the changes. Bad timing, for them. But the response is understandable. But if (and this is a big "if") they can get over it (read: themselves) I bet they can have as much or more fun when the 4E version of the Realms comes out. And wouldn't it be great if there were a bunch of supportive, thoughtful people here on the forums ready to lend a hand and maybe support the continued growth of the Realms? . . . . Wha.....? <..shakes head and wakes up...> Wow....what a great dream that was. Now, back to the nightmare.
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 03:51 AM	For gaming products? Personally, I only buy Ex Machina in graphic novel format because I prefer it that way. But what's done for comic books (including combining issue arcs into graphic novels) is one thing, gaming is something else. It is funny when people who are pro 4th edition argues that doing things in a 7 year cycle works for comics...but this is different....? The more time I spend searching online and in auctions for old products, the less time I spend planning and gaming. Go to nobleknightgames.com...it will probably take you less then a minute to find what you need. And the prices are really great. I don't want to have to purchase or go through a backlog of old, out of print products just to get teh gaming material I need to run a Realms game. I agree which is why I wouldn't mind at all if they actualy did reprint the older books(they do so with the novels). My copies are actualy getting a little long in the tooth. And hey it works great w/ comic books. And again, before someone says, "You don't need the old stuff!" I will once again point out that, over and over, countless of you (including those long gone or who were banned) have stated numerous times that all 3E products are just poor 2E reprints, and/or that the 2E stuff is better, so if anyone wants a true Realms feel they should get the old stuff. Anyone willing to own up to that? Hmmm? Actualy while I can't speak for everybody...I wish that the 3rd edition products were just reprints some of the time...or atleast the writers actualy read those 2nd edition soucebooks. But even with that 3rd edition wasn't that bad...it came with alot of interesting ideas. But those people are right you don't need any of the old stuff, like you don't need any of the new stuff. But having 20 years of lore doesn't detract from the setting it can only add to it. Sure if you don't want it there is nothing making you go get it. But for those who do want it it is very nice that it is there.
Mr_Miscellany 01-15-08, 03:55 AM	{I'm being serious here - I'm just curious} No problem; curiosity is fine. The 8 person roster consists of a mix of elves, drow, dwarves, aasimar and humans. All are Epic level, at least two can cast Epic Spells and four of them are potentially capable of casting. 3E foolishly (IMO) did away with longevity magic....but that's not true in my game. Too much prescedent for it (Phezults Sleep of the Ages, anyone?) Anyway, the player was being excited...it's OK not to think about consequences when you're stoked.
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 03:55 AM	Oh I dunno....I think people just getting into the setting are going to be caught off guard, especially if they're in a really good game, and will probably say they don't like/don't care for the changes. Bad timing, for them. But the response is understandable. But if (and this is a big "if") they can get over it (read: themselves) I bet they can have as much or more fun when the 4E version of the Realms comes out. And wouldn't it be great if there were a bunch of supportive, thoughtful people here on the forums ready to lend a hand and maybe support the continued growth of the Realms? Actualy he just read alot of the old stuff loaned to him and had about 20 character ideas...about 3/4ths of them just became obsolete(if we convert). You can do that...other like me will be here to lend support to those who don't want to play in the new Realms...you are also welcom,e to do so also...as I will if I can to those who like the New Realms...see we can all get along.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 03:55 AM	These forums certainly reinforced that fact, by constantly and unfairly degrading the 3E books as "empty of that 'FR Feel'" and by pointing people the 2E and older products available online. In fact, several of the people now saying one doesn't need more than the FRCS to run a good FR game have given such encouragment --and often at that. -And I stand by everything I say. To play a campaign in the Realms, all you need in the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Nothing more, nothing less. By your own admission, the FRCS is "designed to give a minimal introduction to all parts of the Realms". So, when a person comes looking for more information about something specific, you point them to the source that is going to best inform them- Not that you would really know much about that, since I don't think I've ever seen you help any posters in this manner. If someone wants to brush up/learn about Mulhorand, they are pointed to the best possible source to do so (Old Empires). If they want to brush up/learn about Evermeet, they are pointed to the best possible source to do so (Elves of Evermeet). When compared to their Second-Edition equivalents, most 3e sourcebooks fall short, in terms of providing information. Case in point, Faiths & Pantheons. What took 2e three books (Demihuman Deities, Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons) to cover, took 3e one book. Gee, I wonder which is more detailed, and as such, is going to provide more information to the player/DM/fan? When I see people post that they never even play in an FR game, then watch them go on to level heavy handed opinions about the setting changes...well it just makes me shake my head in disbelief. -Do you play on a professional sports team? No? Then you have no right to complain about their performance/trades/etc. Are you a television executive? No? Then you have no right to complain about the TV show schedules that are put out. Are you an author? No? Then you have no right to complain about anything a writer writes. Are you a politician? No? Then you have no right to complain about any political maneuvers that any politician performs. -So, the fact that I do not run campaigns in the setting somehow makes my opinion on the matter count less, or it somehow revokes my ability to express my opinions on the setting that I follow? That's asinine. But, whatever. Tonight I told a 40 something player in my game about the timeline advancement and you know what he said? It wasn't, "That sucks!" It wasn't, "Oh God, our campaign is ruined! Waaaaaaaa." It was, "Dude, don't go slow anymore. I want to see what happens NOW!" Yes, 40 year old men can get excited, 'let their hair down' and say things like dude. Maybe that's because they know how to have fun without getting overly wrapped up in it. -And, what's your point? When I told a 37 year old player a few of the changes that are being made to the Core Cosmology, he said, "What the hell is that sh**? Why'd they do that".
Mr_Miscellany 01-15-08, 03:59 AM	Reread what I wrote John. You'll find the answer to your rhetorical questions there. I agree which is why I wouldn't mind at all if they actually did reprint the older books(they do so with the novels). So these can compete for limited shelf space on a retailer's shelves? Not to mention the obsolete mechanics? Yes, people, 2E and older books were chock-full of mechanics. They were not, in fact, lore filled fairy tales written with love and bound by pure bliss as some would have you believe.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 04:00 AM	And wouldn't it be great if there were a bunch of supportive, thoughtful people here on the forums ready to lend a hand and maybe support the continued growth of the Realms? . . . . Wha.....? <..shakes head and wakes up...> Wow....what a great dream that was. Now, back to the nightmare. -Where do you get this crap from? When I asked anybody and everybody in another thread when you brought it up if the boards were a horrible, unsupportive, cold place, no one said they were. -Why should I support something I don't like/approve of?
johnkretzer 01-15-08, 04:09 AM	Reread what I wrote John. You'll find the answer to your rhetorical questions there. So these can compete for limited shelf space on a retailer's shelves? Not to mention the obsolete mechanics? Yes, people, 2E and older books were chock-full of mechanics. They were not, in fact, lore filled fairy tales written with love and bound by pure bliss as some would have you believe. Which is why reprints with up to date rules would be great... Personaly if WotC wants me to buy 4th edition all they have to say is that they will reprint some of the older books w/ 4th edition rules. Heck it should be cheaper to do this then come up with new content...both fluff and mechanics. I think it would be a great idea on their part as it is cheap to produce and will get more people to buy into 4th edition...except for some reason they seem very reluctant to do so...
Mr_Miscellany 01-15-08, 04:25 AM	-And I stand by everything I say. To play a campaign in the Realms, all you need in the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Handbook, the Monster Manual, and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Nothing more, nothing less. I agree. To get started, this is all that a DM should ever need. However we all quite obviously know there's more out there. Lots more. One does not start play in the Realms and remain ignorant of its body of lore for too long. The several sources you cite are all great resources. I certainly don’t agree they are the best resources. Many are word-dense and over-written resources whose mechanics are out of date and were unbalanced for 2E play. (But that does admittedly make better are pure lore sources, as those mechanics can be skipped) When compared to their Second-Edition equivalents, most 3e sourcebooks fall short, in terms of providing information. In your opinion, of course. 3E products are well written but -often by some of the same people that wrote the 2E stuff!!!- but, as usual, get short shrift here. Consider: My standard book layout for game includes Volo’s Guide to Cormyr, but not Volo’s Guide to Waterdeep, because I’ve found that the 3E City of Splendors book does a much better job at updating and condensing the best of the lore of Waterdeep into one product, and 3E never (regrettably) gave us a Cormyr update. Case in point, Faiths & Pantheons. What took 2e three books (Demihuman Deities, Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons) to cover, took 3e one book. Gee, I wonder which is more detailed, and as such, is going to provide more information to the player/DM/fan? Your forgot to mention the reams of spells, class kits and repetitive explanations about how all of Faerûn’s incongruent pantheons were supposed to fit together. Faith’s and Pantheon’s certainly did not need deity stats...but neither did Demihuman Deities need to give us an exhaustive list of lore about the racial pantheons. It went past the practical limit, IMO, as many 2E books did. -So, the fact that I do not run campaigns in the setting somehow makes my opinion on the matter count less, or it somehow revokes my ability to express my opinions on the setting that I follow? That's asinine. In so many words, yes. You can express your opinion all you want. I just don’t see how you can form a valid opinion or even dare to speak in such grand, sweeping terms about what’s “happening” to the setting, when you point out that the setting itself is more import than the games that are run in it. “The lore is more important than what’s going on in someone’s game.” ...or words to that effect. This, about a setting intrinsically tied to the Dungeons and Dragons game. Now stop and think about that last sentence. It's important. . . . . Are you seeing the angle yet? Realms products are not written for fans of the setting. They’re written for people who game in the setting. Key point. Learn it. Live it. Love it. -And, what's your point? When I told a 37 year old player a few of the changes that are being made to the Core Cosmology, he said, "What the hell is that sh**? Why'd they do that". That not everyone is a crybaby freak, waiting to emote like a child at the drop of a weightless hat? And I’m sure you were as neutral as possible in your description. :rolleyes:
Mr_Miscellany 01-15-08, 04:30 AM	-Where do you get this crap from? When I asked anybody and everybody in another thread when you brought it up if the boards were a horrible, unsupportive, cold place, no one said they were. Quick! Name one 4E thread that is all or even mostly positive and encouraging. Quick! Name one 4E thread not rife with negativism. Quick! Name one 4E thread that is allowed to speculate on the future of the setting and its usefulness to DMs in a fun, imaginitive way, without any regulars trolling it. -Why should I support something I don't like/approve of? I dunno...because your method of "not supporting" is the same method one would use to help kill the Realms? You don't like it, that's fine. Give the rest of us some room to grow, at least.
Arliekkos 01-15-08, 04:47 AM	Ah so anyone that is disliking the 4e changes to the FR is "crybaby freak, waiting to emote like a child at the drop of a weightless hat?" Just want to make sure that I'm reading that statement clearly.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 04:49 AM	In so many words, yes. You can express your opinion all you want. I just don’t see how you can form a valid opinion or even dare to speak in such grand, sweeping terms about what’s “happening” to the setting, when you point out that the setting itself is more import than the games that are run in it. -So, to avoid being a walking, living hypocrisy, you no longer can ever form a valid opinion about anything that you are not inherently linked to- politics, religion, sports, etc.- no matter the amount of knowledge you have on the subject. Of course, if you ever do so again means that you are a hypocrite, for claiming that I cannot, while you can. “The lore is more important than what’s going on in someone’s game.” ...or words to that effect. -I stood by what I said then, and I continue to stand by it. What you do in your campaign has no relevance to me, as it does not effect me in any way. The metaplot/metalore of the setting does. What you do is your business, and I really don't care. If you bring it up in a conversation, ask for help, whatever, I'm there, suggesting things, no problem. As soon as I leave that thread, however, it has no impact on anything I do/think, until I revisit said thread. This, about a setting intrinsically tied to the Dungeons and Dragons game. Now stop and think about that last sentence. It's important. . . . . Are you seeing the angle yet? Realms products are not written for fans of the setting. They’re written for people who game in the setting. Key point. Learn it. Live it. Love it. -That's a load of crock. Novels are Realms products. They have no real intrinsic value to those who DM in the Realms. So, what's the point of those products, if they're not for fans of the setting? That not everyone is a crybaby freak, waiting to emote like a child at the drop of a weightless hat? And I’m sure you were as neutral as possible in your description. :rolleyes: -Word for word, my conversation was: Steven: Did you hear about the stuff they are doing in 4e? John: No, what? Steven: They're changing a lot of things. A lot of what they are changing is just Forgotten Realms, but a lot of the stuff is regular D&D too. They are smooshing a lot of the planes together, like the elemental planes. John: What the hell is that sh**? Why'd they do that? Steven: I don't know, because they can? -So, way to be presumptious! :rolleyes: Quick! Name one 4E thread that is all or even mostly positive and encouraging. Quick! Name one 4E thread not rife with negativism. Quick! Name one 4E thread that is allowed to speculate on the future of the setting and its usefulness to DMs in a fun, imaginitive way, without any regulars trolling it. -In my mind, that's pretty damning to 4e, then, if absolutely no one has anything good to say about it. -My turn! My turn! -Quick, name one thread where you do not perpetuate and epitomize the negative stereotype you have labeled these messageboards with, as I know Rino has mentioned time and time again, and instead, you help those who come with Realmslore questions, as is the intended purpose of these boards? I dunno...because your method of "not supporting" is the same method one would use to help kill the Realms? You don't like it, that's fine. Give the rest of us some room to grow, at least. -I guess all of those people who disagreed with the methods Hitler used were helping kill Germany, then. They should have let all of those other Germans have room to grow. While WotC is no Hitler, the argument applies.
Scathlock 01-15-08, 05:55 AM	-So, to avoid being a walking, living hypocricity, you no longer can ever form a valid opinion about anything that you are not inherently linked to- politics, religion, sports, etc.- no matter the amount of knowledge you have on the subject. -I stood by what I said then, and I continue to stand by it. What you do in your campaign has no relevance to me, as it does not effect me in any way. The metaplot/metalore of the setting does. -That's a load of crock. Novels are Realms products. They have no real intrinsic value to those who DM in the Realms. So, what's the point of those products, if they're not for fans of the setting? -Word for word, my conversation was: Steven: Did you hear about the stuff they are doing in 4e? John: No, what? Steven: They are changing a lot of things. A lot of what they are changing is just Forgotten Realms, but a lot of the stuff is regular D&D too. They are smooshing a lot of the planes together, like the elemental planes. John: What the hell is that sh**? Why'd they do that? Steven: I don't know, because they can? -So, way to be presumptious! :rolleyes: -In my mind, that's pretty damning, then. -My turn! My turn! -Quick, name one thread where you do not perpetuate and epitomize the negative stereotype you have labeled these messageboards with, and instead, you help those who come with Realmslore questions, as is the intended purpose of these boards? -I guess all of those people who disagreed with the methods Hitler used were helping kill Germany, then. They should have let all of those other Germans have room to grow. While WotC is no Hitler, the argument applies. *winces* Ugh. I don't very much like WWII-analogies, but maybe that's just me. Interestingly IMO, there's a branch of german left radicals calling themselves anti-germans and there are german punk bands who wrote songs like: "Germany has to die so we can live". (But that was of course decades after the end of Nazigermany.) Nobody on these boards goes as far as that and say they want to see the Forgotten Realms die. Even the most die-hard opposers of the changes are very pro-FR. Just not pro-spellplague and pro-destruction of the current setting and would do everything in their power to keep the setting as they know and love it and would emigrate from the realms if the changes happened. "Originally Posted by Marcus Majarra View Post If the additional Realmslore is not necessary to have a fully enjoyable experience of the FR, why is it so crucial to some that the new material cater to this Realmslore?" I think that's a common misunderstanding. It's not about the quantity of knowledge (as people have pointed out repeatedly, there are FR-newbies who feel as strongly about the changes as them oldtimer curmudgeons). It's not about addition and substraction. Its not important if you say 2+2 =4 or 100-50=50. What matters IMO is consistency, internal logic. It does matter on every level of quantity. 1+1=3 is as bad as 1000+300=739. In my experience as a player and DM in the Realms, regardless of the level of knowledge that you have of the setting, be it the knowledge of a casual PC or a novel-reader or the knowledge of a full-fledged I-have-read-everything-and-Eds-Answers-on-Candlekeep-DM, you get a fishy feeling if things happen to the realms that are out-of-character, at odds with the internal logic of the setting or plain inconsistent. It's the <insert colourful, piratey-sounding adjective here> job of the designers who handle a setting with the depth and breadth of the Realms to take all the history of the setting into account. For those who have inconsistency-sensors and can't turn their disbelief on and off at will. And for the sake of the setting and the sake of the meaningfulness of their own work as well. And that's the whole problem. They (the designers) don't make the effort to make the changes consistent with the "feel" of the Realms. Either because they can't or they don't bother. Or because Wizards didn't force every single one of them through 3 months of FR-Bootcamp, whatever. I can imagine consistency is not important for you if you don't have these sensors or don't care to listen to them. And it's in no way affecting your games and your style of play directly when you can easily suspend disbelief regardless. Let your PCs be turned to stone in the 1370s and brought back to life a hundred years later to explore the brave new realms. Have fun. Someone ought to. Otherwise the whole affair would be too sad. I think some won't really understand all the outcry, regardless how people try to explain. How to explain colours to the blind? (By the way, I have found it quite impossible to play in campaigns were DMs commit blatant inconsistencies. As well as I can't really play with players who can't be bothered to act in-character and make their actions believable. One can't play with everyone. One persons hell is the others paradise.)
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 06:16 AM	I don't very much like WWII-analogies, but maybe that's just me. -The clear-cut, shock value is what I mainly use them for, when I do.
Scathlock 01-15-08, 06:21 AM	-The clear-cut, shock value is what I mainly use them for, when I do. Shocked me from my morning lethargy to write a post. So it worked. ;)
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 06:28 AM	Shocked me from my morning lethargy to write a post. So it worked. ;) -Well, it wasn't that shocking, I don't think. It was very general, and specifically so. -And, wait a minute. Isn't it around noon or so in Berlin?
Alediran 01-15-08, 06:30 AM	I mean, Cyric has been dead-set on taking out Mystra since BEFORE either of them ascended to godhood. I'm not surprised he succeeded, what with how he ended up at the end of The Crucible. That novel was just awesome. And Malik, too. Gotta love Malik! Silly little cuckold! That's the thing that I hate the most about 4ed, that Cyric succeded. I don't like him and now even less because he got lucky (I don't rely on "luck" in my life and somebody succeding because of luck doesn't deserves what he got) I think we are talking about different things here...I am talking about out of print books here. The companies who sell those don't pay a dime to WotC to do so. And I think alot of Realm's fan are buying those books instead of WotC FR books. That was my point... That's the fault of WotC. If they gave better books this wouldn't happen.
Scathlock 01-15-08, 06:34 AM	-Well, it wasn't that shocking, I don't think. It was very general, and specifically so. Hey, it was only my second coffee and I was reading "Hitler". That name always shocks me into consciousness. Ever since 7th grade. -And, wait a minute. Isn't it around noon or so in Berlin? Yup. But uni starts only at 14:15 today, since I decided to skip the lecture at twelve. *Yawns*
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 06:53 AM	Hey, it was only my second coffee and I was reading "Hitler". That name always shocks me into consciousness. -Ha, ha, good point. Yup. But uni starts only at 14:15 today, since I decided to skip the lecture at twelve. *Yawns* -Ah, I see. You bum. :P
Scathlock 01-15-08, 06:59 AM	-Ah, I see. You bum. :P :embarrass Hey, I'm a hard-working man.... Just not today :cool:
BadCatMan 01-15-08, 07:57 AM	I just wanted to throw in an opinion from the other side: I've come to a very important realisation over the last couple of months. I'm not a Forgotten Realms fan. I know little about Elminster, and less about the Seven Sisters. And I can't stand the Elves, in all their forms. I have no interest in the Dalelands or Cormyr or the Moonsea or Waterdeep. I don't use the Zhentarim, and half the other groups. I don't like the novels of Ed Greenwood, I don't follow his Realmslore articles. I haven't read anything by Elaine Cunningham. I barely read any of the novels, except for Drizzt, and don't particularly like any of them. I'm a mere user of the Realms, a straight-up gamer looking for a good pre-fab CS to tell stories in. I got in to this 3 years ago. And I hate these changes. I also lead an online FR group of 300-odd players and DMs (fans and non-fans) and 40-odd games. It's lasted for nigh-on six years of painfully slow but dedicatedly played adventures. And if we adopt these changes, it's all ****ed. So we're not. And there's not been a word of protest.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 08:17 AM	I've come to a very important realisation over the last couple of months. I'm not a Forgotten Realms fan. I know little about Elminster, and less about the Seven Sisters. And I can't stand the Elves, in all their forms. I have no interest in the Dalelands or Cormyr or the Moonsea or Waterdeep. I don't use the Zhentarim, and half the other groups. I don't like the novels of Ed Greenwood, I don't follow his Realmslore articles. I haven't read anything by Elaine Cunningham. I barely read any of the novels, except for Drizzt, and don't particularly like any of them. I'm a mere user of the Realms, a straight-up gamer looking for a good pre-fab CS to tell stories in. I got in to this 3 years ago. -We still love you, BCM. :cool: :P
Rauric 01-15-08, 09:07 AM	Rauric, I don't appreciate being "analyzed" like that. Please stop, and don't do it again. The bolded part of your quote was totally inappropriate and absurd, and I find it disrespectful. The reason I'm not sure I agree with you is because you are using a narrower definition of "apocalypse" than I was (which, as I mentioned, was taken right out of a dictionary). Conventional (or at least, the most popular?) post-apocalyptic stories tend to take place in settings that are almost completely devasted and people are reduced to barbarism, but I don't think that means all post-apocalyptic stories must be like that. Sigh. I meant the you as representing everyone who may feel that way, didn't mean to single out you or anyone else. Basically when I single someone out I use their name in my post. Sorry if you took it the wrong way. Anyway, your right in defining how I see a post-apocalyptic anything. It is kinda like Markus' pic or like Dark Sun if it were D&D. To me it is more of a survival at any cost feeling than a post-TOT or post Plague or post-Cataclysm (Dragonlance) feeling. Though the Cataclysm might have had more of that feeling than any FR RSE that came down the road.
Devin Lightshadow 01-15-08, 09:10 AM	People who started playing in the realms in 2E, own (nearly) every book and know nearly all stories and subplots in the realms. For them its easy because they learned it bit by bit but the new players are possibly overwhelmed by all the information they think are required to play the FR correctly (happens most often if a already experienced FR player/novel reader is in the same group). I've been playing/running in the Realms since 1e, I own nearly every single FR product released in 1e, 2e & 3/3.5e and I don't know 1/3 of the stories and subplots. I frequently have to look stuff up because I don't commit that stuff to memory. I've introduced many people to the Realms and almost none of them (other than my wife) ever bought a single FR product or novel themselves, and none of them ever were concerned about being oerwhelmed by the amount of information on my gaming bookshelf about the Realms. They just played. They didn't worry about what other people had written about the Realms before they started playing. Their way of thinking was this, "My character doesn't know everything there is to know about the Realms. Why should I?" What a brilliant thought! Awesome role-playing, that was. And I liked it that way. I didn't want them saying, "How can this be this way, because in such-and-such product/novel this happens here..." I make my Realms MINE, and I often deviate from canon.
Alediran 01-15-08, 09:20 AM	That's why I put a lot of skill points on Knowledge skills, so if I say something I can justify what I said in character.
Rauric 01-15-08, 09:27 AM	Mr. M I too get tired of people post certain things but I realize I can't do much about it. Even if I ask nicely for people to try to tone it down it can never work, this is the Net. If they wish to vent then so be it. I can make a few comments here and there if they are totally off the wall but that is all. Some people fans are very attached to the NPCs (including gods) and changing them in any way (with death or time jumps) is very tough on them. That is the feeling I get from reading everone's comments since Sept. Many people on these boards are here because of that feeling they have toward the setting and because they wish to discuss things with people who feel the same way. I do not think that feeling is part of the larger consumer market (IMO) but it is definitely the general consensus on the boards and here and Candlekeep in general. So you really cannot change peoples minds or even have them "tone down" their feelings. Unless they are extremely against COC that is. I am sure the Wizos let some things slide at times because if they did not there may be 20 people on these boards. ;) People post that they know people who won't buy the new books and I know people that will. I am not sure who will "win" out. I do know that FR will most likely be the only campaign book out at that time. Some people will want to play in a published setting so the book will be bought by new and old players. After that who knows? Maybe that is the reason Eberron was placed on hold till a year after the FR release?
Devin Lightshadow 01-15-08, 09:34 AM	That's why I put a lot of skill points on Knowledge skills, so if I say something I can justify what I said in character. Part of my point is that I change things. I deviate from canon. I use the printed/published material as a reference point and I go from there. If I don't like something, I either change it or don't use it all (no shades/city of Shade in my Realms, for instance). So your Knowledge roll of 25 still would fail if I've changed things from what was printed in the novel/supplement you the player read. No matter how good you roll, if it's not that way in MY Realms, the check fails.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 09:56 AM	I'm going to answer this question, even if it wasn't directed specifically at me: I do, however, notice some sort of contradiction going on (this is not directed specifically at you, Rinonalyrna). If the additional Realmslore is not necessary to have a fully enjoyable experience of the FR, why is it so crucial to some that the new material cater to this Realmslore? I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "crucial", but I have an interest in new Realmslore and stories based on the "old" Realms. When Rich Baker said that the focus would be on the new Realms, I was pretty saddened, even though I can understand why they would make such a business decision. Of course, Ed Greenwood still plans to give us more "lore" on the Candlekeep website, and I appreciate that. And I still plan to "mine" the 4E Realms for elements that I might enjoy using in the old Realms even though I plan never to introduce the Spellplague. So it's not like I'm TOTALLY downbeat about this issue, I just would have liked more.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 10:08 AM	And wouldn't it be great if there were a bunch of supportive, thoughtful people here on the forums ready to lend a hand and maybe support the continued growth of the Realms? Like who, you? You just hijack every other thread to complain about the posters here. It's getting very old very fast.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 10:21 AM	Quick! Name one 4E thread that is all or even mostly positive and encouraging. Quick! Name one 4E thread not rife with negativism. Quick! Name one 4E thread that is allowed to speculate on the future of the setting and its usefulness to DMs in a fun, imaginitive way, without any regulars trolling it. There are many such threads on the 4E boards. I know, because I've spent some time there. Maybe you should too.
ORC_Tao 01-15-08, 10:23 AM	Alright kids... lets keep things civil. There's no need to be rude to one another. Disagreement is accepted and welcomed. Being mean is not. When replying to others comments, please do not insult the poster or their opinions.
Sullivan 01-15-08, 10:26 AM	Case No. 1: Thay Thay is a good example of what feels wrong about 4th Ed. In the current time line (as the 4th Ed. Realms book has not be released to up date the setting officially), Thay is a sinister nation of evil wizards that has at long last descended into civil war. People do play games involving the Thay we have been presented with for the last two decades. People are interested in the civil war. On some boards there are entire threads about Thay, the war and its major players. The new setting does not advance this plot, it shoot this plot between the eyes. Following the events of Spellplague, Thay (or at least parts of it) were pushed up by magical geology so that its elevation is thousands of feet higher than it was. That’s it – that is the development. In place of a traditional evil enemy that people did use, in place of an interesting plot… we have geographic hurdles. Flipping through the books to check out the rules for mountaineering is going to replace an on going civil war in an evil wizards’ nation. If I wanted to climb a G*d*a*n*d mountain I would go to a mountain. I go to Thay for evil wizards and the civil war, not bare-handed rock climbing. What was the thought process behind this decision? If the Realms had to have some hard to climb mountains, why put them of Thay? How is that (the mandated and seemingly arbitrary destruction of the long-standing villain) a better idea than seeing the civil war to its conclusion and possibly letting the players have a hand in the outcome? Case No. 2: Unther Unther was, like Thay, in the middle of an on going plot – it was being conquered by Mulhorand. According to the time line in Grand History, this eventually happened. Further, there were developments that had not been seen to completion, such as the appearance of Untheric people transformed by Selune and the growth and goals cult of Tiamat. However, this is all s*i*c*n*e* so we can have a nation of Gorn-wanna-be’s. Granted, having a nation of warrior-reptile people is a fairly standard trope in science fiction and fantasy. But why Unther? There were other places that could have been replaced with out shooting another on-going plot in the head. For example, there had been little official development with either the Vast or Chondath in recent years. Putting the nation of Gorn-wanna-be’s on one of them would have been development (after a fashion) rather than a random act. Further, Chondath is going to be destroyed in 4th Ed. anyway – it could have been replaced by the nation of Gorn-wanna-be’s, (still a kind of development) and allow the situation with Unther and Mulhorand to develop. In addition, Chondath is closer to places like Cormyr, Sembia and the Dalelands than Unther, thus the new nation of nation of warrior-reptile people would be situated to be more of a threat than it is based on its replacement of Unther. But that did not happen. Unther was destroyed and replaced and Chondath was simply destroyed and were are supposed to think this is all good.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 10:28 AM	Sigh. I meant the you as representing everyone who may feel that way, didn't mean to single out you or anyone else. Basically when I single someone out I use their name in my post. Sorry if you took it the wrong way. Apology accepted, but please, don't refer to these changes as being "traumatic" again to me. I've been through REAL trauma in my life. To make assumptions about my real life mental state (or anyone else's) on a gaming forum is inappropriate, no matter how correct you may think you are. My point being, be careful about what words you use. And that goes for anyone who's reading this post, not just you. Anyway, your right in defining how I see a post-apocalyptic anything. It is kinda like Markus' pic or like Dark Sun if it were D&D. To me it is more of a survival at any cost feeling than a post-TOT or post Plague or post-Cataclysm (Dragonlance) feeling. Though the Cataclysm might have had more of that feeling than any FR RSE that came down the road. Like I said, I'm not bothered if some people use different definitions than I do.:) Not worth arguing about.
Rext20 01-15-08, 10:31 AM	I am new to this forum and I play FR so someone please tell me what is going on what are they doing? Is this have something with new edition
Rauric 01-15-08, 10:37 AM	Basically Chondath and Unther were not very popular (to the majority of players) adventure locations so they got the Plague axe. To Rext : The new 4e book will take place 96 years or so in the future of the FR world.
Alediran 01-15-08, 10:38 AM	What I tried to tell you is that when I play FR and I know the game accepts cannon lore I put a lot of knowledge skills to justify any slip of my tongue.
Marcus Majarra 01-15-08, 01:24 PM	They are also just getting rid of alot of lore like High level NPCs and gods, and ending conflicts. Those actions really does make that lore obsolete. If I never chose to use that particular lore, it's no more obsolete now than it was then. Even if the timeline were to advance three millennia, no lore is useful until I make use of it. I would see a more reasonable argument in the form of "I don't like the 4E Realms because the amount of contemporary Realmslore has been reduced to almost nothing." Of course, this problem is solved gradually, as more contemporary lore is fed to the setting. I agree which is why I wouldn't mind at all if they actualy did reprint the older books(they do so with the novels). I get a feeling (and this is by no means universally felt) that if they were to simply reprint old material, the Realms would truly start to seem stagnant. Quick! Name one 4E thread that is all or even mostly positive and encouraging. Quick! Name one 4E thread not rife with negativism. Quick! Name one 4E thread that is allowed to speculate on the future of the setting and its usefulness to DMs in a fun, imaginitive way, without any regulars trolling it. Well, I did create one, just the other day: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=978351 Granted, at this point, there are only two replies and 58 views, so it's not much of a thread, but I hope it grows. And that's the whole problem. They (the designers) don't make the effort to make the changes consistent with the "feel" of the Realms. Either because they can't or they don't bother. Or because Wizards didn't force every single one of them through 3 months of FR-Bootcamp, whatever. The problem with this kind of reasoning is that it's purely relative. The "feel" of the Realms? This "feel" changes wtih every significant difference you can point out between two points in Realms history. Netheril Age Realms feel nothing like 14th century Realms. The dynamics are not the same. Magic is not the same. Personalities are not the same. Geography is not the same. Pantheons are not the same. And yet, we don't see an ocean of posts blaming either the 14th century Realms or Netheril Age Realms from feeling differently. For that matter, two different parts of the Realms have completely different feels, even in the 14th century, and no one disputes their belonging to the same Realms. I very much doubt the Shining South feels anything like Silver Marches. The thing is: the Realms are not limited to any single "feel." Some editions and sourcebooks focus on one particular feel or another, but I don't see this as a particularly binding agreement. I can imagine consistency is not important for you if you don't have these sensors or don't care to listen to them. And it's in no way affecting your games and your style of play directly when you can easily suspend disbelief regardless. Let your PCs be turned to stone in the 1370s and brought back to life a hundred years later to explore the brave new realms. Have fun. Someone ought to. Otherwise the whole affair would be too sad. Oh, but I do have a good consistency sensor. I see it as consistency that cataclysms of major significance be felt whenever magic falters in the Realms. I see it as consistency that Cyric kills Mystra, as both are merely humans ascended to godhood. If what's been going on in the divine since the Time of Troubles has shown anything consistently, it's that these divine mortals are quite fallible. Kelemvor, Mystra, and Cyric acted quite out-of-purpose for many years. I see it as a consistency that additional cultures be transported to the Realms, seeing as more than a handful have done this in the past. I see it as a consistency that countless plague-fleeing refugees congregate around some kind of recognized haven. What I see as inconsistent is the notion that 15th century Realms should be mostly like 14th century Realms. That, itself, is the hallmark of stagnancy. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "crucial", but I have an interest in new Realmslore and stories based on the "old" Realms. When Rich Baker said that the focus would be on the new Realms, I was pretty saddened, even though I can understand why they would make such a business decision. Of course, Ed Greenwood still plans to give us more "lore" on the Candlekeep website, and I appreciate that. And I still plan to "mine" the 4E Realms for elements that I might enjoy using in the old Realms even though I plan never to introduce the Spellplague. So it's not like I'm TOTALLY downbeat about this issue, I just would have liked more. Thank you. This reply completely met my expectations. Following the events of Spellplague, Thay (or at least parts of it) were pushed up by magical geology so that its elevation is thousands of feet higher than it was. That’s it – that is the development. Who is to say that this is all the development there will be on Thay? Keep in mind that the FRCG is 288 pages long. I wouldn't be surprised to see Thay as either a Realm unified or finally sundered as a result of the Spellplague.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 01:30 PM	Hmmmm... some thoughts... Going by what BCM said, I would have to say I may not be a Realms Fan either! :eek: I pretty much second the entire first half of his post (except for the parts about Elaine and Ed), and could echo the last sentence as well. In fact, I could look back through almost all of the lore and find things I hate - the Bedine, Chult, Maztica (as written), Halrua, The Shades, the Shadow Weave, the Elven Return... yes even Mystra's Chosen (I'm not a fan of the seven, sorry). However, I wouldn't get rid of any of it (Okay... maybe Chult), because it is part of the WORLD I love. I don't really care for Arab Terrorists, the Eifel Tower, Hindu's worshipping cows, Chocalate covered insects, the Yankees, etc, etc... BUT I'm also a big fan of EARTH. ;) You can hate parts of something, and still not want to see it all changed. Now, I also understand where Miscellany is coming from - and I would have to agree that folks who don't play in the Realms are only here for the stories. The stories will still be there, even in the future 'Bizzaro' World, so you will still have lots of Realms stuff to enjoy. I also understand that you don't want to read about that stuff - I can name at least three FR trilogies off the top of my head that I refuse to read, just because the concepts they contain make me want to puke (and NO, its not the Avatar trilogy - I read those). But the novel-only fans, or rather, fans of the lore, not the game, only make up a small percentage. I think Gamers are crying the loudest of all here! Do I think the 14 year old who only reads Drizzt books is going to care if the Dark Elf is swinging his patented two-swords in 1375, or 1479? Hell no! Now the little turd has even more to be all emo and brood over... But I digress... I''ve have heard people say they like the changes. I, myself, plan to use the 4e rules. I think lots of folks will switch over to the new rules, but don't think a lot of those people will be FR fans. I think the new rules set will drive fans even further away from FR - beause most willl stay with 3e, and not 'buy into' the new setting. I gaurantee most of the folks that disliked FR before, will CONTINUE to dislike FR - they'll just come up with new reasons. I have heard FAR MORE folks say they hate the changes - some about the rules, most about FR, a few even about the careless way we are being introduced to these changes (myself included)... Right after the 4e Gencon announcement, I went to my LGS and asked if THE OWNER if he heard about D&D. You know what he said? "What? You mean Wizard's latest money-grab?" THAT, from a guy charged with selling their merchandise, and likely make money off of it. If the people who are 'working for them' (and I'm going far beyond the little store owner, but I won't mention any names) can't get behind the new setting and push it, its doomed before it even gets out the door. @Miscellany - I applaud you for what you are doing - you, and the couple thousand other people who just buy the material no matter what may just keep the brand viable for a couple more years... but why should the rest of us stick with a product that no longer makes us happy? So that your group, and the few others who stand by WotC, can continue to play in the setting that YOU love? Thats a rather selfish thing, to expect the rest of us to buy sourcebooks we don't enjoy, just so you can continue to play in the new Realms. It is not our job to purchase products, it is their job to produce products that people will want to buy. I will be perfectly honest with you - I will be purchasing the FRCG, even though I realize it will send the wrong message to the bean-counters. I thought about it, and I don't think 'not-buying' FR products is really going to cause them to do an about-face and un-make 4e FR. Its here to stay, no matter how much we protest, because someone, somewhere thinks it will work. I'm sure many other 'nay-sayers' will be buying the book as well, probably just so they can come here and rant like crazy. Either way, FR has one last shot - ONE SINGLE SHOT - to amaze the hell out of everybody. That book better be like the second coming, or you're gonna need to shop around for a new setting in a couple of years. :bored: *All of the above is based on my opinions, and should not be taken as fact. I'm a pretty savy guy, but I'm far from being always right. :cool:
msatran 01-15-08, 01:53 PM	Mr. Miscellany: "That's all I can stands and I can't stands no more" To quote the inevitable Popeye the Sailor. Is there anything you say that doesn't ring with the tone of visceral hatred itself? You want continued support for the Realms? Follow through with me for a minute here. Clearly, the message Wizards is receiving from the fan base is that they don't like, want to support, or enjoy the "New Forgotten Realms." It reeks of too many cosmic crises (Which we hate), Dan Didio and Joe Quesada, and other similar marketing "successes" designed to make monsters out of heroes and cardboard cutouts out of characters. I don't appreciate being called a "freak." I didn't like it when I was in grade school 32 years ago, and I don't appreciate it now. Coincidentally, I learned to play D+D in Grade School when I was about eight, and now I find myself staring eye to eye, so to speak, with someone who is my worst nightmare. You're a bully. And you're a bad one. Name calling, rudeness, demanding support from people who don't want to support you, these are the hallmarks of your behavior. Stop. That's my advice.
ORC_Sinister 01-15-08, 02:15 PM	Folks, we have gotten ourselves off topic and started yelling at each other, not debating the issues. This turns a productive thread into a non productive thread in danger of being closed. I don't want to close this thread, so return to the topic. If someone gets out of hand after this warning we'll deal with it. Thanks Sin
gomeztoo 01-15-08, 03:02 PM	The information in the article is rather brief, and Rich has commented that there is more that he can't reveal just yet. Unless Rich is just making up stuff, realms that still exist are: Amn, Cormantyr, Moonshaes, Sembia, Turmish, Impiltur, Cormyr, the Vast, Thesk, Aglarond, Chessenta, most of the Sword Coast (incl Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate), The Silver Marches, and Thay. That is still a significant amount of stuff that remains from the old (and we can't be sure that what wasn't mentioned doesn't exist). Now some areas got it rough, and some disappeared, but in general I feel that much old material will still be useful. Though I do wonder how many of the taverns Volo described are still in existence 100 year further...
Rauric 01-15-08, 04:00 PM	The information in the article is rather brief, and Rich has commented that there is more that he can't reveal just yet. Unless Rich is just making up stuff, realms that still exist are: Amn, Cormantyr, Moonshaes, Sembia, Turmish, Impiltur, Cormyr, the Vast, Thesk, Aglarond, Chessenta, most of the Sword Coast (incl Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate), The Silver Marches, and Thay. That is still a significant amount of stuff that remains from the old (and we can't be sure that what wasn't mentioned doesn't exist). Now some areas got it rough, and some disappeared, but in general I feel that much old material will still be useful. Though I do wonder how many of the taverns Volo described are still in existence 100 year further... Exactly. It is not as bad as people are making it out to be IMO. The biggest thing is the 96 year jump and the Nethril Empire. Both of those are pretty big changes.
Alkasyn 01-15-08, 05:32 PM	Yes, I think jumping 150 years into the future would be a great thing to do for 5th edition. And what gives you the idea that 4E will only last 2 years or so? 3E lasts 8. In any case, I honestly hope no one thinks their 3E Realms sourcebooks will be useless in 4E. Just because they document a past era doesn't invalidate the contents of those books. Lost Empires of Faerun was an awesome 3E sourcebook for the Realms, and it basically covers Realmslore from the significant past. Is the book useless because it doesn't apply to 14th century Faerun? I doubt this very much. I'll answer this old post, sicne it's directed at me - sorry for the late reply, but I kind of missed this thread. Anyway Seeing 3 and 3.5 as the same thing, then yea 3E lasted 8 years, and I'd agree with that, since the changes were minor. But, seeing how things are picking up the pace, I really think that we will get a new change of the status quo pretty soon. Considering the lost empires - 3e books will be only an addition for a 4e DM/player, a bonus for someone who really wants to study the lore. Of what use will for one be detailed descriptions of lands that no longer exists, or of people that no longer live? Personally, for me it would only be minor flavour, as I'm not a fan of time travel, and wouldn't throw my players into the time stream, but that's me. I started the realms in 3E, and only once looked into a 2e book - wanted to find out how Jergal looked like before he became Kelemvor's lackey. Richard Baker has stated that, paraphrasing, Faerun will be something new, and hardly recognisable. What use would I have for my Races of Faerun, or Faiths and Pantheons, in a 4ed game? 4 ed books will present the flavour in a more concise way, with 4th edition centered anotations, too, so no player would really bother to use the old books, if new ones will be aviable. And new books will be printed, as theyre the source of income for the company. Half of my Faihts and pantheons will have outdated information, and some of that information will be even retconned. In a nutshell, as It's late already - I too would like to think that 3e books will still be useful, but seeing as the time jump is huge, at least for me and my troupe, and the changes to the setting are in certain places Major (Sespech, Mystra ), we will not be switching to the New Realms, simply because we don't like the way they're gonig, judging from teh previews we got. I personally won't buy the book, as the cost here in Poland for a sourcebook is significantly higher than on the otehr side of the Pond, but when it eventually is released in my country, I'll pay a visit to the local bookstore, and at least browse through it. There might be some things which are interesting, plus the artwork ought to eb good, that's one thing which never disappointed me:)
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 06:03 PM	Technically, they killed the gods in 3e, not 4e, so I won't include any of that here. So, we had 'Wild magic Zones' in 2e, now we have Plagued Lands... <yawn> Unther, that no-one I personally know ever used, is gone. We've been expecting - nay - ANTICIPATING this very event for nigh-on twenty years now - we just thought it was going to be Mulhorand to lay the final smack down. So we went from a place that might be fun to adventure in, to a place that might be fun to adventure in. <yawn> I liked the concept behind Chessenta - but I never gamed there. Now something else is there - I'll still never game there. The only thing that did was enable players to play Dragonborn, and now have a native homeland within FR - I could have thought of a dozen more subtle ways to do that, but whatever. Whats done is done. <yawn> Cormyr is the bastion of hope and goodness... again. <yawn> The Shades are... the Shades... and they have Sembia now <Yawn> The Elves are back in the Elven Court - what a surprise! Didn't that really happen in 3e, though? <yawn> I don't play in the Swordcoast, and I haven't played in anyone elses game that did either. I was kinda hoping Waterdeep was going to go Ka-Boom (old GH enemities there, sorry), Baldur's gate now looks like Los Angelos a'la Realms, the Silver Marches finally got its original name back, and the Orcs have a Kingdom. Big whoop <yawn> Lets see... THAY!!! This might be interesting, I'll need to see more. I just hope they don't f__k it up. They need to make Thay EVEN MORE Thayish - cabals of evil necromancers living atop a remote, inaccessable plateau... Bwuh - Ha -Ha -Ha!!! :plotting: One potential good thing, and the rest is just 'meh' - sounds like the Realms to me, with very little in the way of new or creative ideas attached. I'm almost disappointed they DIDN'T destroy it. :bored: Since the deity stuff really happened in 3e, then the only thing I can really still get aggravated over is the completely useless Time-Jump.
Lord Karsus 01-15-08, 06:34 PM	Since the deity stuff really happened in 3e, then the only thing I can really still get aggravated over is the completely useless Time-Jump. -There is a difference between things that evolved and transpired in 3e (say, like the Shadowstorm, which has been hinted and teased at for a couple of years now), tthat mostly evolved with fluidity, and things that were 'forced' in 3e, to prepare for 4e (say, like the entire debacle with Helm, Dune, Tyr, Tymora, Mystra, Cyric, and half of the Mordinsamman.)
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 06:43 PM	The gods thing was stupid - we've pretty much beaten that subject to death, though. Right now, I'm just looking for any REAL differences between 3e and 4e Realms, and I don't see a lot to get excited over. Mystra and the Weave were a biggie, but thats old news now. This new stuff is nothing compared to the stuff we were handed at the end of the GHotR. So, if you were to take the GHotR out of the equation - really - how much is extremely different, now? Its not... almost pathetically so. The Dragonborn is probably the only 'new' thing we've gotten in 4e - the Plaguelands just sound like Wild Magic Zones re-dux, to me. As for the rest - most of it we saw coming (Sembia, Netheril, Cormanthyr, the Orc Kingdom, the abscence of Unther, etc...) The worst thing that any of us have to deal with now is that silly time advancement they are forcing on us. And all we have to do is IGNORE that. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 06:52 PM	You saw a "goodly" orc kingdom coming?
Kenzuki 01-15-08, 06:56 PM	You saw a "goodly" orc kingdom coming? Ripping off Warcraft.:D It's ok though, Thrall would own Obould.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 07:07 PM	In a heartbeat! :D You saw a "goodly" orc kingdom coming?No... not a 'goodly' one... but we really don't know what its going to look like, outside of that tiny glimpse Drizzt gave us in that prologue. The Orc Kingdom in WoW isn't 'good' , and neither are the 'Alliance' (humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Niight Elves). If you read the history of WoW, is VERY similar to that of Eberron, but with a twist (the one stolen by FR designers called The Orcgate wars). The Orcs were tricked into pouring through a portal and attacking the other races, who responded in kind and defeated them. Then, twenty years later, all the Orcs were living in concentration camps, and being used as slaves by humans. Thrall breaks the mould... and his chains... and the Orc Kingdom is born. There is no good and bad anymore - those are old concepts. Individuals behave along the lines of 'law' and 'chaos' now, and you don't necesarily have to fight each other, if everyone behaves themselves. Its much more realistic then an 'evil race'. So if they play it that way, and have the Orcs still behave brutally to those who break the law, I can live with that. We have people on this planet that cut off others peoples heads - on television - but I still wouldn't massacre the whole race because of it. If they have them open up a boutique in downtown Waterdeep, or florist in Baldur's Gate, then I would begin to worry. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-15-08, 07:11 PM	In a heartbeat! :D No... not a 'goodly' one... but we really don't know what its going to look like, outside of that tiny glimpse Drizzt gave us in that prologue. Good point. Although, the kingdom seemed rather "goodly" to me. After all, it was good enough for Drizzt of all people...;)
Kenzuki 01-15-08, 07:12 PM	In a heartbeat! :D No... not a 'goodly' one... but we really don't know what its going to look like, outside of that tiny glimpse Drizzt gave us in that prologue. The Orc Kingdom in WoW isn't 'good' , and neither are the 'Alliance' (humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Niight Elves). If you read the history of WoW, is VERY similar to that of Eberron, but with a twist (the one stolen by FR designers called The Orcgate wars). The Orcs were tricked into pouring through a portal and attacking the other races, who responded in kind and defeated them. Then, twenty years later, all the Orcs were living in concentration camps, and being used as slaves by humans. Thrall breaks the mold... and his chains... and the Orc Kingdom is born. There is no good and bad anymore - those are old concepts. Individuals behave along the lines of 'law' and 'chaos' now, and you don't necesarily have to fight each other, if everyone behaves themselves. Its much more realistic then an 'evil race'. So if they play it that way, and have the Orcs still behave brutally to those who break the law, I can live with that. We have people on this planet that cut off others peoples heads - on television - but I still wouldn't massacre the whole race because of it. If they have them open up a boutique in downtown Waterdeep, or florist in Baldur's Gate, then I would begin to worry. ;) A fellow Warcraftian scholar I see, we should talk.... I do say that I am sad the way that Jeff Kaplin and his Evercrack buddies seem to be taking World of Warcraft though. It was much better when Rob Pardo was lead designer and actually made the world rich and viable not just raids and phat lewt. But yeah to compare Thrall and Obould we use their DnD stats. Obould is like what level 10? Thrall is 28 or 29 I believe according to the Warcraft RPG: Shadows & Light hehe.
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 07:29 PM	Maybe in the PnP RPG, but I've fought him in-game, on raids, and he pwned face! He's awesome! :D Anyway - yeah, Drizzt thinks they're good, but just look at HIM! Notice my Avatar; now remember why the novel was called The Thousand Orcs - because he KILLED that many! YOU may think of Drizzt as good, but he is a murderer in MY EYES. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/eyez2.gif
Dzwood 01-15-08, 07:43 PM	Ugghg I have said it before I miss a nice black and white situation...such as kill the orc before he kills me. I dont like that in every situation we encounter if the guys in the dungon dont atcack me firist I am going to have to talk to them for three hours before I know if I can fight them or not. Ohh well it will probaly work out for the best I just like simplicity
BadCatMan 01-15-08, 08:12 PM	Thanks, Lord Karsus. :) On being a fan: On the other hand, this is a very active-involvement interest. It rewards extra research, exploration, and getting familiar with the material. It results in fan-like behaviour and interests. Here, there's a rather blurred line between being a user and being a fan. Dragonborn: There's plenty of blank spaces in that area they could have dropped a small Dragonborn kingdom - like southern Chessenta, or the eastern wilderness of Unther. Maybe in Threskel, or in the mountains. But not the Vast! Netheril & Thay: What's the bet these places will be still filled with high-level archmages for FR-haters to complain about? Orcs: Actually, the Realms already had a few civilised Orc kingdoms: Airspur in Chessenta, others in Thesk, the Odonti. BTW, Markus, your avatar is actually a Sharakim from Races Of Destiny - a race of humans cursed to turn into orcs. They're big on wizardry and they hate orcs. :P
Kenzuki 01-15-08, 11:00 PM	Maybe in the PnP RPG, but I've fought him in-game, on raids, and he pwned face! He's awesome! :D Anyway - yeah, Drizzt thinks they're good, but just look at HIM! Notice my Avatar; now remember why the novel was called The Thousand Orcs - because he KILLED that many! YOU may think of Drizzt as good, but he is a murderer in MY EYES. http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/eyez2.gif Are you suggesting that he actually slew a thousand orcs? What, did they like come to him in turns or something? "Who is NEXT!" - Number 2 "How many more!?" - Number 50 "By the gods this is annoying!" - number 345 "I'de rather be writting in my diary!" - number 765 "So...very....tired....must get....some sleep!" - number 864 "My blades are rusting from the blood and I need to take a leak!" - Number 976 "WHO ELSE WANTS SOOOOOOOMMEEEE!?" - Number 1,000
MarkusTay63 01-15-08, 11:49 PM	Yes, yes he did. He spent the entire novel picking off Orcs, one by one, trying to 'scare' certain tribes back into the Mountains, so they wouldn't join Obould. He was killing 20-30 a day, for months... I think 1000 is a rather conservative estimate. ;) Dragonborn: There's plenty of blank spaces in that area they could have dropped a small Dragonborn kingdom - like southern Chessenta, or the eastern wilderness of Unther. Maybe in Threskel, or in the mountains. But not the Vast!Or better yet, south-east of the Lake of Salt. There's already a monster kingdom there (Veldorn), and the Dragonborn would have been a perfect fit for Khaasta, who are ALREADY CANON, and have a heavy presence in that region already (with more on the way). http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Dragon_Khaasta.jpg Seriously, these guys are already in FR - why the hell make up new - and not so great - lore? BTW, Markus, your avatar is actually a Sharakim from Races Of Destiny - a race of humans cursed to turn into orcs. They're big on wizardry and they hate orcs. :PThats what the original picture is from (I should know - I CREATED that Avater), but I created it solely so I could use it myself, to represent all the oppressed Orcs in the multiverse. It doesn't matter what the original artwork said; to me it is an Ondonti Mage-Priest of Mystra, hero of his people and defender of green rights. ;)
gomeztoo 01-16-08, 04:47 AM	I liked the concept behind Chessenta - but I never gamed there. Now something else is there - I'll still never game there. Chessenta still exists, actuallly.
Alediran 01-16-08, 07:01 AM	Add me another Warcraftian schollar, I played Warcraft 2 and 3 + frozen throne and did a couple months in WoW (which from my experience is the best MMORPG, except for UO, you can level without having to kill thousands of critters every day) and own the WW books for Warcraft. It has really good mechanics for classes (love the divine and arcane class that can multiclass themselves between Mage/Warlock/Necrcomancer and Priest/Shaman/Druid)
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 10:23 AM	Add me another Warcraftian schollar, I played Warcraft 2 and 3 + frozen throne and did a couple months in WoW (which from my experience is the best MMORPG, except for UO, you can level without having to kill thousands of critters every day) and own the WW books for Warcraft. It has really good mechanics for classes (love the divine and arcane class that can multiclass themselves between Mage/Warlock/Necrcomancer and Priest/Shaman/Druid) Me too! They still haven't released Dark Factions yet though Luke Johnson still claims they will. Apparantly they are having issues with Blizzard as partaining to certain information. I'll bet you fifty gold coins they are waiting for information for the Death Knight from Wrath of the Lich King. I really wish that the Warcraft RPG hadn't turned into the WoW: RPG and tried to mirrior the MMORPG. I liked it better when it just focused on the world of Azeroth and added a bunch of things that were new. I like how paladins don't have to be strictly Lawful Good but can be Neutral and Chaotic Good as well. Edit: That and Medivh could give Elminster a run for his money Chosen or not.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 05:47 PM	There was a lot of good lore that came out of the warcraft series, and I enjoyed playing WoW for over a year, until it got stale. I thought about getting back into it after the expansion came out, but I had a buncha 60's and I thought "What? Play again, just to get them up to 70?" It all seemed rather... pointless. But it was great for what it ws, and I still borrow quite a bit for my games (and from Diablo). @Gomeztoo - I'll have to re-read that article; obviosly I'm a little mixed up. - Thanx. ;) Question Not up to speed - What are Dark Factions?
johnkretzer 01-16-08, 06:10 PM	There was a lot of good lore that came out of the warcraft series, and I enjoyed playing WoW for over a year, until it got stale. I thought about getting back into it after the expansion came out, but I had a buncha 60's and I thought "What? Play again, just to get them up to 70?" It all seemed rather... pointless. But it was great for what it ws, and I still borrow quite a bit for my games (and from Diablo). @Gomeztoo - I'll have to re-read that article; obviosly I'm a little mixed up. - Thanx. ;) Question Not up to speed - Wht are Dark Factions? I just started WoW...I would think they kept your level 60's around...though I am by far a expert on this.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 07:45 PM	Well, I think they are still there, even though I haven't played in a year. I think they 'archive' them or some such. Anyway, my point was that I would have bought the expansion and played, ONLY to level-up all my guys from 60 to 70, NOT because I wanted to play, but because I felt I had to. When I examined my feelings about this, I realized that was a rather stupid reason to play the game. I stopped having fun, and thats why I stopped playing in the first place. Once I got bogged down into all the 'guild stuff', then I had to post when I'd be on, and who I could help 'make runs'; I'd spend the first hour on doing enchants for guildies and friends... it was like having a job - and I HATE those! :P
Kenzuki 01-16-08, 09:31 PM	I had two level 70's and a level 63 as my highest by the time I quit. I might go back for Wrath of the Lich King to try out the Death Knight class. I had a level 70 night elf hunter, 70 human paladin and 63 human warrior.
GreenKnight 01-16-08, 09:51 PM	I got to about Level 53 with one character before I got sick of World of Warcraft. This was before Burning Crusade. I thought about getting Burning Crusade when it came out, but I decided against it. I'd been getting steadily more and more ****** off with each level that passed. I sure as hell didn't want more of the same for another 17 levels. Anyway, I'm planning on checking out Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures when it comes out this May, I think. I'll also be getting Stargate Worlds when it comes out later this year. I just wish there were a good Forgotten Realms MMO. I checked out D&D Online, but unfortunately, it wasn't the Realms, and it wasn't good. So scratch that.
Dark Wizard 01-16-08, 10:28 PM	I guess I'll do my rundown of the points in the article since everyone did so already. A century jump is sensible given the sorts of changes designers want to bring to the setting. If these changes were not present or greatly reduced, a ten year jump would have been about right. While I'm dismayed because this signals the end of company support for the old Realms (so much potential untouched, hopefully Ed and others at Candlekeep can keep the torch lit), I'll throw in some mild support for the century jump given the hand we've been dealt. Article outlined typical exposition on the Spellplague's mystic blue fire setting rearranger. This was as expected, nothing fancy, nothing new. Actually it reminds me of fanfic, particularly the alternate history kind, like "What if Sauron actually won?" or "What if the Dominion conquered the Federation?" or "What if the Rebel Alliance failed?" I've played in games like these before, even written short stories on such what ifs. They can be fun if done right, but are limited in longevity since they depart from the original state of the setting. It takes a lot of work to permanently shift the setting so that the altered state feels like the default. However, the feel from the start of the article differs vastly from the rest of the article, which makes me feel this whole thing is a bit of overblown (negative) hype. I'm pretty tired of that, whatever happened to positive hype? Mythals and heavy ward effects protecting places from the worst of the Spellplague, this saves most of the places that the current batch of designers have shown the most interest in, that's convenient... This somewhat undercuts the danger and randomness of the Spellplague hype. Perhaps WotC will surprise us later. Also, because Thay also has extensive wards and wide area magical enchantments, it should have remained mostly untouched by the Spellplague. A shake up of the Red Wizards did not require a physical change to the nation, the Haunted Lands trilogy was already going about this and the changes to magic means the Red Wizards (what's left of them) will have to adapt by default. Redundant, but not terrible if Thay has something of the old Thay flavor left (and by that I mean more than just Szass Tam alone). The new canyon replacing the Landrise does nothing. It turned a distinct landmark into another boring hole in the ground (even if inhabited by monsters because what place in a game setting isn't infested by monsters?). There was an old civilization here given only the barest mentions. The ruins of this lost empire (Pelluria?) are now gone, crumbled into a nameless pit. Designers said they would try to show us places 'forgotten' during the 20 year publication history of the Realms. This is one mark against them, rather than show a forgotten realm they destroyed one and replace it with nothing worth mentioning. The names of the disaster areas - changelands, Changing Lands, even plaguelands - are boring. It takes a very common word and combines it with -land, there's just not a spark to it. How are the designers hoping to develop traction with this? Other settings have more interesting and vital "magical scars upon the land" areas with similar naming schemes. Eberron has the Mournlands (very fitting given the history), L5R has the Shadowlands (accurate given what it is), Eric Mona hinted that Paizo's setting of Golarion has a "Worldwound." Each of those other settings also has only one such place. Each "land-scar" is a significant focus point for a setting. For Eberron the Mournland's creation ended the Last War, utterly annihilated one of the main nations and remains not only a terrible physical fallout zone but a heavy psychological weight. The mystery of who created it and how they did it only increases the allure of the Mournlands from a storytelling standpoint. Rokugan's Shadowlands is heavily tied to the setting's history and culture, so much so that most of the non-human monsters come from it, it is the site of a dead dark god's tomb (the setting's 'Dark Lord'). One clan of the empire in Rokugan is entirely devoted to watching and guarding over the Empire's border with the Shadowland. At any time in history even when the entire empire is at war with itself, if the Shadowlands presents a significant thread, the various feuding clans will fight together to stop it. The most dangerous threat the Shadowlands presents is as a dividing force, that splits the clans up and makes them drain each others resources. It is a theme of the setting and provides the impetus for a lot of the storytelling and conflict in the setting. So far the Changing Lands (and other such locales) acts as nothing more than a generic monster spawn point. They need to show a lot more of this Changing Land to give it context in the setting. That the Changing Lands wiped Chondath and Sespech from the map is strike two against the designers who said they will try to show us little show areas of the Realms. The Vilhon reach area gets little attention but is a vital piece of the coastal Inner Sea. I felt that 3e really gave the place some traction with the attention to the Yuan-Ti influence in some of the cities, Jhaamdath's psionic history and legacy (it gives gives those wars it fought with Calimshan some new context), Chondath's old failed imperialistic bid, and an handful of cities lost to the Chondalwood. There was so much going on in the Reach, and so much that could have taken place there. Now it's gone. It would have been better (imo) to form the Changing Lands just off of Chondath so the Chondathans now have to face the horrors spewing forth from the place. That would have given the area something to do if the designers felt the Vilhon Reach was boring. The Sword Coast - nothing much happened here besides the typical progression of time and various little events. I like that the Blackstaff is now a position, this is what I mentioned in my own game after the novel Blackstaff. Fairly neutral towards Baldur's Gate's vast increase in size, hopefully this refugee plot point is given proper attention. Perhaps finally the city can have some coverage since it's been NDA due to the video games. I'm okay with the Moonshaes getting some attention, specifically the invasive kind. Amn up to it's expansionistic grabs again. Tying in the Feywild is a good choice. Between the fey, the Amnians and the Northmen the Moonshaes is looking like an interesting place. The Ffolk have their work cut out for them, but that's good for adventures. I could do without the fomorians though. I know the Moonshaes had the whole Celtic thing going, but I thought we were trying to move away from too many direct real world copy and paste jobs. (Besides, Dark Age of Camelot already covered this angle.) Hopefully WotC can bring an interesting new twist to the Fomorians to make them work into the setting rather than just a straight adaption of the real world legend. The Shade Empire and Sembia under their thumb - well it's not too different from 3e. From the Archwizards story to the new Twilight War arc, this is the final result of that progression. It's an okay development I think. It creates an interesting dynamic with Shade/Sembia on one side and Cormyr/Cormanthor/Silverymoon on the other. I like the mention that there are still untamed areas of Anauroch, still lost ruins and hidden secrets. I like what Rich said about exiled Sembian merchant houses deserting to the Vast and making a home there. Overall I'm fine with how Cormyr turned out, it's a progression of what Cormyr would look like given the circumstances. Rather than an overthrowing of the old setting lore it builds on top of it. The tensions with Shade and the city states Cormyr now claims provides for some good story opportunities. I like that Cormyr is a "point of light" for the most part since that was Ed's goal with the original Cormyr, there should be a relatively safe starting place and a resting stop for adventurers. How good Cormyr turns out really depends on the personality of Cormyr (of the people there, the history and the country as something of a character onto itself) because Cormyr is set up as a generic fantasy monarchy that differentiates itself and shines purely through execution of that basic archetype. Tymanther - what the hell happened here? I've spoken of similar reality reshaping reset buttons in my own games but then I'm not even a hack game designer, I have no design credits, no publications. This is the sort of stuff you expect from amateurs like me, this is not what I expected from the design team after the things they said. I really thought they would do better than this, they've shown better talent and ideas before. I wonder what sort of thought process inspired this, were the designers blinded by the as yet unseen coolness of the dragonborn? Were they going for broke, considering Unther an utter lost cause, 3e Unther hit bottom and they figured it could get worse no matter what? Personally I thought Unther really started coming onto its own in 3e, with the loss of Gilgeam, the country in disarray, various factions fighting, the Mulhorandi pushing in, Tiamat exerting her control, Bane putting a hand in things, Hoar/Assuran getting vengeful as usual, maybe throw Bahamut in there and you essentially have a Babylonian inspired pantheon without all the real world copy and pasting. Mulhorand probably needed the reality reformat more than Unther since it still has the entire Egyptian pantheon pretty much intact and active. Instead of building on material that almost reach the intended goal of a region that fits into the setting and has many things happening inside of it, we start back at square zero with interdimensional refugee band #2. This is almost as bad as killing Mystra... again ... and again. If the dragonborn are erased from the area in 5e, it would be tied for the most repeated setting changing plot device. Others have mentioned the more fitting introduction of the dragonborn. Why would two races (3e and 4e) call themselves dragonborn. Why would the Tymanther dragonborn continue using the term dragonborn if they hate dragons, one would think, even if the name is right on the money for their origin, their hatred of dragons would have driven them to use another name long ago. By the way, this is another strike against the designers who said they will showcase seldom mentioned portions of the Realms. I know the Realms are big and there are plenty of places where this can apply, but we seem to be running out of them rapidly at the rate this is going. This last part was by far the most bland and jarring thing revealed in the article. Fortunately the other things aren't as terrible so there might be something worthwhile. Plenty of room left for "wait and see" but this needs a lot of work. I know this isn't the final product, but sometimes when you read a summary of something much deeper, a bit of that depth peeks through. I felt none of that here, hopefully I'm wrong and there is much more to the whole picture. I just didn't get that from this article.
Charles Phipps 01-16-08, 11:23 PM	Richard Baker is acquitted. That's my personal opinion on 4E. Everyone has pretty much raised every Layer of the Nine Hells in anticipation of the transformation of the Forgotten Realms into Eberron. Or, if they were feeling kind, the complete destruction of everything we loved about the Realms. You know how 5th Age Dragonlance had all the Dragons killed, the Towers of High Sorcery Destroyed, and the Gods disappear? Oh and all the environments were ruled over by Giant Unkillable Epic Dragons? Yes, well we know 4E would turn out much worse than that. Yes, worse than turning the Dales into flaming Lava Plateaus! Now, I secretly suspected from the very beginning that we weren't going to have much in the way of changes. But yes, honestly, I'm overall disappointed with the relative lack of change more than anything else. Imperial Cormyr is a pretty grandiose title. Does this mean that the Cormyr Nation covers the whole of the Dalelands? No. Does this mean that the Stonelands have been tamed after 150+ years of in-canon adventurers attempting to clean the place out of monsters? No. Does this mean that they've started Maztica colonies with portals? No, it seems it's added two cities and recovered from the destruction of Tilverton (which I fully believe will be reconstructed to it's original 1E status) Sembia is under the control of the Shades? Well, that would be shocking and original were not for the implications that they're still the same old Sembians as before. Also, that they may even just be the "power behind the throne." Worse, this is nothing new since the Cult of the Dragon used to control Sembia from behind the throne. Baldur's Gate is bigger? Whoop de doo. It was already able to fight a war with Amn according to the Baldur's Gate video games. As for Thay? I have one question, is Thaymart stil active? If it is, then I'm :censored: but if it isn't then I fully support the transformation of Thay into a Mountain Transylvanian like Kingdom. It's not like anyone traveled Thay on Roads rather than the back of monstrous beasts or via teleport anyway. Thay was a blasted magical wasteland before and it still is, good for it. As for the Spell Plague, it's the Time of Troubles Fall out all over again. YOU DON'T NEED TO REPEAT IT. I suppose Unther got the biggest transformation and is now officially a Draconian nation. Well, Krynn clearly isn't doing anything with them so we should probably be happy about that. The Untherese are pretty much designed to be the :censored: of the God-Kings or slave lords. That the Draconians are doing it now doesn't change anything. I'll have to wait on the changes to the Reach and Chondath.
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 11:44 PM	You know how 5th Age Dragonlance had all the Dragons killed... -I don't know much about Dragonlance, but you are telling me that they actually culled the Dragons, in Dragonlance? :uh-huh:
Charles Phipps 01-16-08, 11:48 PM	-I don't know much about Dragonlance, but you are telling me that they actually culled the Dragons, in Dragonlance? :uh-huh: Oh yes, according to 5th Age, almost all the Dragons were extinct except for the Dragon Overlords in the Dragon Purge. Instead, you had these huge 30th level type things that no one could ever reasonably kill and were more ridiculous than Darklords from Ravenloft to have the answer "Why don't they just kill the PCs" So, in Dragonlance, there's like 5 Evil Dragons. Oh and the Major Waterdeep like Port City is a gigantic Ice-berg covered city. Nevermind, no reason why anyone wouldn't MOVE and start a city where it's not ICE LOCKED. They're just carrying on. Believe me, FR fans were complaining without knowing REAL pain.
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 11:58 PM	-O...kay...I'm happy I never got into Dragonlance...
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 12:03 AM	They were just gonna change the name to 'Lance', but then thought better of it. :P And yeah... they got 'Nuked' waaaaay worse then we ever did. However, the feel from the start of the article differs vastly from the rest of the article, which makes me feel this whole thing is a bit of overblown (negative) hype. I'm pretty tired of that, whatever happened to positive hype?I'm glad someone else can see the deliberate attempt on WotC's part to fool everyone into thinking this setting would be 'new' and 'different'. I've been saying for awhile that they didn't need to change the setting, just people's percetion of it. Well guess what, peeps? thats what they did... and they had us all fooled. I'll take the 'new' <cough> setting, but they can keep their 94 year time-jump - I find it completely uneccessary. If it wasn't for the 'god stuff', the world pretty much looks the same... and how many times are we going to really use the gods in our games? We can pretty much disregard all that silliness. :rolleyes: Now, I secretly suspected from the very beginning that we weren't going to have much in the way of changes. But yes, honestly, I'm overall disappointed with the relative lack of change more than anything else.You're preachin' to the choir, brother. I'm almost disappointed, considered we were all 'looking forward' to the end of the world. It seems very anti-climactic, truth be told. Half of me is breathing a sigh of relief, while the other half is saying WTF?! :uh-huh: Others have mentioned the more fitting introduction of the dragonborn. Why would two races (3e and 4e) call themselves dragonborn. Why would the Tymanther dragonborn continue using the term dragonborn if they hate dragons, one would think, even if the name is right on the money for their origin, their hatred of dragons would have driven them to use another name long ago.Like the Khaasta? ;)
Charles Phipps 01-17-08, 12:06 AM	Actually, Mark, the God stuff is more shenanigans. Cause, according to WOTC. All the gods will be gone that aren't Greater Gods! *pause* Except, not really. More or less your cleric of Milil will STILL be a Cleric of Milil. It's just that Milil will be serving Oghma. You know....like he always did.
Marcus Majarra 01-17-08, 12:38 AM	I don't know much about Dragonlance, but you are telling me that they actually culled the Dragons, in Dragonlance? It's actually more complicated than that. One millennium before the first cataclysm, dragons disappeared from the face of the world. Well, not quite disappearing. They mostly went away and sunk into extended hibernation. Then, barring a few mostly hidden events, dragons make a comeback three-and-a-half centuries after the cataclysm to partake in the War of the Lance. At that point, they had become creatures of legend, so everyone was surprised, to say the least. So that's nearly 14 centuries without dragons. Some thirty years later, the second cataclysm happens. Unknown to nearly all, the planet had actually been stolen away by one of the gods and was relocated around an area called The Gray, where unbelieveably powerful dragons were. These dragons found the world of Krynn and proceded to gain more power by cannibalizing the local dragons (and each other). It's not that dragons disappeared again as much as the survivors knowing better than sticking around in the open for the next time one of the Dragon Overlords feels a craving for Mc D's (where D stands for Dragon). Yeah, Dragonlance gets funky that way...
Lord Karsus 01-17-08, 12:44 AM	Yeah, Dragonlance gets funky that way... -I was about to say, it sounds like the script of a comic book. Dragonlance is the kind of setting I could theoretically get into, if the timeline was static, like Eberron. The War of the Lance has always intrigued me, and sounds somewhat interesting, from the limited amount I know on it (mostly from the Cloakmaster Cycle novels). Maybe I'll pick up those books sometime...
Charles Phipps 01-17-08, 12:48 AM	Let's just say that "Thank God for Fiction" as effectively the 5th Age is treated as almost never happening by the current books.
Mr_Miscellany 01-17-08, 01:15 AM	No, it seems it's added two cities and recovered from the destruction of Tilverton (which I fully believe will be reconstructed to it's original 1E status) I dunno about Tilverton... Me, I want it to be the flashpoint for future wars/conflict in 4E between Cormyr and the Empire of Netheril. But, if the great shadowy void disappears or fades away and future lore tells us Cormyr has taken the ruins of Tilverton back....I can live with that. As an aside: I can't wait to get my hands on more Sembia books. I wish I'd have read them all much sooner. Lots and lots of good stuff to make my players nervous in them. The idea that Netheril has expanded into Sembia reads well to me, because it puts two great areas of evil power on the borders of the Dales/Cormanthor and Cormyr, as well as allows for Netheril to try again and again to consolidate its hold on the territory between itself and Sembia, and so cut off one goodly ally from the other. Excellent setting planning there, if you ask me.
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 02:23 AM	Never used Sembia or the Shades before, and I have no intention. For all the much vaunted 'changes', nothing in my game is going to change (except I'll be using new rules). And the gods? Yeah... I think that GHotR blurb was just hype and a whole lot of negative publicity to get the anti-FR crowd drooling. So there's no Mystra... unless you were planning to have your PCs meet her, it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference. The church will still be there, in my game at least. Who knows who or what is answering their prayers? Unless it has a direct bearing on my game, I have all the time in the world to puzzle that one out. As for the rest - No Weave, but an Arcane Power source... No Shadow Weave, but a Shadow Power Source.. Yeah... that waaaaaay different. :rolleyes: So they renamed Elves - I used to call them stuck-up Elves, and nice Elves. Now they're Eladrin, and nice Elves - once again, no difference. I supppose Eladrin sounds a little nicer then 'stuck-up'. But seriously, changing the name of the Sun and Moon Elves is just changing the lore for change's sake - it really accomplishes absolutely nothing. I could've got my six year to run around with a crayon and re-name everything. It took them two years to come up with THAT? The jokes on us, I guess. Here I was, postulating the end of the Realms as we know it, and we got handed a bunch of aliases, Draconians, and Wild magic Zones... excuse me... "Changing lands". PUH-leaaase! The time-jump still pi$$es me off no end, but I just choose to ignore it (and anything Else I don't like). Boy was I wrong - I thought FR would be un-recognizable, but instead we got BORING. Ah well... I guess there's just no making some people happy, eh? ;) Excellent setting planning there, if you ask me.More like a meeting where they took turns throwing darts at a map......
Raelan 01-17-08, 02:27 AM	The more I read about the 4E Realms, the more I wish they'd gone whole hog (to use a colorful expression) and just nuked everything, done a true Mad Maxx post-apocalyptic world. No true realms, just widely scattered city-states and hamlets trying to survive in this harsh new reality. There would still be room for (reduced versions of) Waterdeep, Silverymoon, and other such places, but they would be few and far between, and pale shadows of their former selves. Instead, what the information we have so far seems to indicate is that we're getting what might almost be called a parody of the Realms we knew, with much of what made the Realms...well...the Realms destroyed or dead of old age. At the same time, we have these new changes, of which many read like bad plots for a D movie. In the end, if they wanted to kill off the Realms we knew, I wish they would have just gone ahead and done it instead of creating this half-assed version. Then, I might have been able to look at the new setting with fresh eyes and been able to find merit in it. Instead, all I see is a mockery of what we once had. EDIT: Perhaps my opinion will change in the future, but right now I calls 'em as I sees 'em, to use the vernacular.
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 02:30 AM	My sentiments exactly. They didn't change enough to be interesting, but they changed just enough to pi$$ people off - what were they thinking? :confused:
Charles Phipps 01-17-08, 02:34 AM	Instead, what the information we have so far seems to indicate is that we're getting what might almost be called a parody of the Realms we knew, with much of what made the Realms...well...the Realms destroyed or dead of old age. At the same time, we have these new changes, of which many read like bad plots for a D movie. I suppose it depends on how much you relied on the NPCs. In the end, if they wanted to kill off the Realms we knew, I wish they would have just gone ahead and done it instead of creating this half-assed version. Then, I might have been able to look at the new setting with fresh eyes and been able to find merit in it. Instead, all I see is a mockery of what we once had. What ticks you off so much? They didn't change enough to be interesting, but they changed just enough to pi$$ people off - what were they thinking? With all due respect, what could they have changed that some people WOULDN'T have been mad about? Unther is, obviously, the heart of everyones campaign.... :rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 02:36 AM	Personally, CP, I think the time-jump is the #1 thing that is making everyone crazy. All the rest is just a bunch of RSEs, which we should be very use to by now. PS - I know that wasn't aimed at me, but I'm just trying to sort this whole 4e 'mess' out in my mind right now. Unther is, obviously, the heart of everyones campaign....:rofl:
Mr_Miscellany 01-17-08, 02:40 AM	More like a meeting where they took turns throwing darts at a map...... Says you.... :P I ****like**** how the books department and games department are on the same page now. There used to be heavy complaints and criticisms of how books and games didn't always appear to be on the same page when it came to the Forgotten Realms. Now, though, we've got authors who are dedicated to regions of the setting, all writing pretty good Realms fiction that ties in to what's coming. I LIKE that. It's an improvement of one sort, at least. :::::::::::::: I want to see what the Hullack Forest is like now....with the Feywild being emphasized in 4E...I look forward to seeing more of the primal in that wood that’s always been hinted at in the past. They didn't change enough to be interesting, but they changed just enough to pi$$ people off - what were they thinking? Bah Humbug to you, mister! :P :P When I'm stressed at work and trying to figure out how to minimize things like travel time and keep overtime to a minimum also....I find myself thinking about the 4E Realms. Cormyr, Sembia, Netheril, the Dalelands....all changed in the future, all working as rival powers or allies (or maybe both, in certain situations?)....a good DM like me can do a lot with this setup. Heck...for my FR campaign set in the current timeline year....this is gravy too! I can take what I'm reading (and going to read) about Netheril and its efforts to subjugate/subdue Sembia and borrow that for my own game. I'm telling you, there's good stuff here for great FR games.
Raelan 01-17-08, 03:02 AM	I suppose it depends on how much you relied on the NPCs. To paraphrase something Ed Greenwood said and that I happen to agree with, it's the people that make the world come alive and give it its flavor. Now, sadly, all those people and organizations are dead or almost assuredly changed beyond recognition, and the Realmsian flavor just won't be there anymore. What ticks you off so much? Let's see...killing off pretty much all of the established NPCs, killing of most of the various pantheons, destroying Unther and the Vilhon Reach, introducing draconians to Faeûn on a large scale, Shade actively taking over Sembia, um...pretty much everything, TBH. It all just rubs me the wrong way, and doesn't FEEL like the Realms. There were some things in the 3E campaign setting that did the same to me, such as the return of Bane (the Avatar Trilogy and subsequent game modules specifically stated that Ao left Bane dispersed for his part in the theft of the Tablets of Fate, yet for some reason he allowed him to be resurrected? WTF?), but most of the items made sense or seemed to fit in well enough with the flavor of the Realms. I cannot say the same for what I've read of the 4E Realms. Another thing I'm seeing is that the Realms seem to be moving more and more towards monolithic evil (a la Dragonlance) and further away from smaller conflicts often based on human/elven/dwarven/orcish/whatever failings. Recently, you've got Fzoul taking over the Zhentarim and the entire Moonsea region, the Shades annexing Sembia and everything within the borders of Anauroch, the draconian realm Tymanthar or whatever its name is, etc. I most definitely do NOT want to see Dragon Highlords, Knights of Takhisis, and their equivalents in the Realms (and did I mention draconians?), and don't want everything to be about large Realms going at it with sharpened sticks. Moreover, as another poster already asked: what happened to the Harpers? Weren't they supposed to work to keep nations small and accountable to the common folk to some extent? Or are they another thing that has been tossed by the wayside in 4E? The Realms as a whole seems to be focusing more on massive empires and large scale conflicts than the smaller, more personal stories and events that previously defined them. I feel this is very much a loss because, oftentimes there's not much a PC can do to affect a large empire, but their actions can often have a drastic effect upon an organization or small city without the events having to be completely contrived by the DM to put them into such a position... (You find yourself conveniently within arm's reach of the king just as a masked crossbowman springs up from behind the balcony, and you throw him out of harm's way just in time to save him from the quarrel that, burning with enchantments, sinks into the back of his throne right where his head would've been. Never mind the fact that someone of your birth and/or [lack of] reputation would have no reason at all to have ever been invited to an audience with the king of the massive Empire of Cormyr, much less allowed within arm's reach.) Anyway, it's late and I'm not expressing myself as well as I should. I'll try to clarify more tomorrow if I'm not too burnt out after work. In short, I feel the essence of the Realms is being destroyed in yet another corporate grab for more cash. (And we haven't seen that anywhere else in recent years - not at all. SOE never had an unannounced game overhaul that destroyed Star Wars: Galaxies, gasoline still costs under $3.00/gallon, and the major media outlets didn't deny their shows' writers the chance to get paid for online viewings of their work.) There comes a point where you've ceased to make a fair profit and rolled over into outright larceny. I hope that's not the case here, but it very much feels like it is. I just hope it doesn't come to the point I expect it to, which is a situation where it would've been better just to let the Realms die entirely. EDIT: This jaded and cynical post brought to you by my exhaustion and the fact that I'm tired of things only ever changing for the worse.
Marcus Majarra 01-17-08, 03:33 AM	I was about to say, it sounds like the script of a comic book. Dragonlance is the kind of setting I could theoretically get into, if the timeline was static, like Eberron. The War of the Lance has always intrigued me, and sounds somewhat interesting, from the limited amount I know on it (mostly from the Cloakmaster Cycle novels). Maybe I'll pick up those books sometime... I'm surprised that you would need a setting to have a static timeline in order to get into it, theoretically. In any case, if you want a good read from DL, I recommend the Legends trilogy. It has excellent focus on the characters and gives you a good feel of how the 4th Age has been building up (or recovering). BTW, the 4th Age is a very much enjoyed period of the setting to play in. Let's just say that "Thank God for Fiction" as effectively the 5th Age is treated as almost never happening by the current books. Really? Geez, I must have been away from Dragonlance for a while. Although I did notice they placed quite a deal of focus on pre-Cataclysm Krynn (3rd Age) in the recent years (plenty of Kingpriest age crunch and fluff and novels). To paraphrase something Ed Greenwood said and that I happen to agree with, it's the people that make the world come alive and give it its flavor. I'd like to believe that 4E FR will have plenty of people to make the world come alive and give it its flavor. And it's not because you're dead that you can't give a world some flavor. Take Karsus, for example. Wouldn't you say this character is a FR icon? And yet, he's been dead for millennia.
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 03:39 AM	When you go through the old 1e and 2e sourcebooks, you come across page after page of wonderful personalities (NPCs). I really don't see that happening in 4e - they're all just stat blocks. Thats why I'm only moving up five years - everyone I want to be will still be alive, and the rest of the world will look as it does in 4e. I get the new rules with the old fluff - how can you beat that? :P
MazrimTaim 01-17-08, 04:12 AM	I go for Dark Sun if I want a post-apocalyptic game. And Dark Sun is just fun anyway. I like Faerun because of it's richness and variety, and because it's an extremely well detailed high fantasy world where I can just close my eyes and point and find myself at a location where with a little research I can run a game in. It also introduced me into D&D, and I fell in love with Mystra and her Chosen and especially the large pantheon. I also love the centuries of history and the ruins of old empires and ancient civilizations, giving the world a truly legitimate feel. And then 4e comes along. I'm not sticking with pre-4e realms because I don't find 4e core itself not interesting but because I love those certain aspects of the Realms that I feel are central to it's theme, at least for me and a good deal many others by the sound of it. "Simplifying" it makes me a sad panda. What I want is more detail, and especially more detail about those areas that haven't seen official mention yet. And I don't have a problem with an RSE being the transition from one edition to the other .. but this is too extreme for me. Some say it's not enough and that hardly anything has changed. But honestly, I'd prefer them to create a new setting rather than change FR this way. I grew to love Eberron and I'd give something new a shot as well, but the whole idea of this quasi-Realms (in my mind) is something I'm saying no to.
Alediran 01-17-08, 07:30 AM	When you go through the old 1e and 2e sourcebooks, you come across page after page of wonderful personalities (NPCs). I really don't see that happening in 4e - they're all just stat blocks. Thats why I'm only moving up five years - everyone I want to be will still be alive, and the rest of the world will look as it does in 4e. I get the new rules with the old fluff - how can you beat that? :P If I do a Spellplague it will be because the effects caused by Mystra when she merged the Weave with the Shadow Weave (it took her some time to finally merge well both weaves), and there will be less changes, Dragonborn will be what they were supposed to be from 3ed (that wonderfull plothook in DoF). Shade will not be that powerfull (hate monolithic BBEG)
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 09:09 AM	You know, I think the only reason why I'm choosing to go with 4e is so I can re-do things my OWN way, not theirs. Since I plan on Unther still being what it was - a conquered state under Mulhorandi rule - and moving the Dragonborn (:yuck: ) further south, I guess my game is going to be more like 3e meets 4e meets homebrew. I'll keep the stuff at the end of the GHotR, even though I hate most of it, and we'll see about the rest - I can't make any decisions utill I see exactly how different the pantheon looks in 4e. The superficial crap, like whats happening with Baldur's Gate, really doesn't matter to me, so I'll keep it. Wild Magic Zones/Changing Lands? I've always liked those; in fact, they were the only things I liked coming out of the ToT. The stuff about the Moonshaes makes them MORE interesting, so of course I'm going to go with that. Never liked Netheril - not sure what to do there - I'll have to see what the maps look like first. Personally, I'd rather have the Anauroch turn into something like the Mournland, rather then become 'all fertile' again. Perhaps I'll leave it as a single evil city sitting in the middle of a Wasteland, and have them pull the strings in Sembia behind the scenes. Once again, things will be different, but appear to be exactly the same. My Realms were far from canonical anyway, although I tried to stick to the canon history as much as possible. 4e just gives me a chance to say f__k-it, and ignore canon altogether. At this point I'm so disappointed by them NOT ruining the Realms (weird, huh?), that I may just create a homebrew based on the Realms, and then it really doesn't matter what edition I call it. Really HATE those Dragonborn... going to have to downplay Tymanther big-time. Those guys, and the time-jump, are pretty much the only things I'm still shaking my head at now.
johnkretzer 01-17-08, 11:06 AM	I'd like to believe that 4E FR will have plenty of people to make the world come alive and give it its flavor. And it's not because you're dead that you can't give a world some flavor. Take Karsus, for example. Wouldn't you say this character is a FR icon? And yet, he's been dead for millennia. Skiming though the latest preview book I sorta doubt this as they seem to entirely focus on the PCs. But we'll see. Also just as a sidenote Karsus is a interloper into the Realms who was shoehorned badly. But he is tolerable because he is ignorable. But he definitly didn't even come close to be in any way defining to the Realms for me. (No offense to the poster know as Lord Karsus). But I can agree with your point...but you are ignoring serveral factors that they have stated that should make it be a limited factor. That is by the way is one of the biggest difference between this change to the Realms and anyother change/or addition...is that this one is sorta hard to ignore. I also don't like the fact they are ending plots so decisively that they just introduced a couple of years ago.
johnkretzer 01-17-08, 11:12 AM	The idea that Netheril has expanded into Sembia reads well to me, because it puts two great areas of evil power on the borders of the Dales/Cormanthor and Cormyr, as well as allows for Netheril to try again and again to consolidate its hold on the territory between itself and Sembia, and so cut off one goodly ally from the other. And a evil area to the north with the Fzoul's empire claiming the Moonsea area for the Dalelands and Cormanthor. It is actual interesting that this is such a 'good idea' considering people have said it is about time that Zhentil Keep took over Shadowdale...how long can the Dale lands stand against three evil empires being cut off from their allies?
Alediran 01-17-08, 11:34 AM	At least the elves of Cormanthor should have restablished their portal network to other elven and friendly powers. Plus I don't think the Zhentarim are that eager to try Myth Drannor's powerfull Mythal.
Charles Phipps 01-17-08, 11:40 AM	Now, sadly, all those people and organizations are dead or almost assuredly changed beyond recognition, and the Realmsian flavor just won't be there anymore. True...and not. Let's face it, The Zhentarim are almost certainly unchanged. They've got Fzoul and Manshoon as both immortal beings that will have absolutely no problem keeping everything under control from their point. Elminster and Drizzt are also alive. Presumably so are all the Elven characters and most of the Dwarves (Bruenor Battlehammer nonwithstanding) killing of most of the various pantheons, It's been clear that no gods are DYING, they're just becoming Saints. Shade actively taking over Sembia You preferred the cult of the Dragon? Moreover, as another poster already asked: what happened to the Harpers? Weren't they supposed to work to keep nations small and accountable to the common folk to some extent? Or are they another thing that has been tossed by the wayside in 4E? The Harpers were pretty well :censored: by their split. All the smart guys left and became Moonstars yet they were micromanaged by Khelban and Larael....and well, Khelban is dead. The Realms as a whole seems to be focusing more on massive empires and large scale conflicts than the smaller, more personal stories and events that previously defined them. With all due respect, I don't really see this. Cormyr is no different, all in all, than it was in 1E. Baldur's Gate isn't a kingdom, it's still a giant city. I feel this is very much a loss because, oftentimes there's not much a PC can do to affect a large empire, but their actions can often have a drastic effect upon an organization or small city without the events having to be completely contrived by the DM to put them into such a position... (You find yourself conveniently within arm's reach of the king just as a masked crossbowman springs up from behind the balcony, and you throw him out of harm's way just in time to save him from the quarrel that, burning with enchantments, sinks into the back of his throne right where his head would've been. Never mind the fact that someone of your birth and/or [lack of] reputation would have no reason at all to have ever been invited to an audience with the king of the massive Empire of Cormyr, much less allowed within arm's reach.) Dude, that's ALWAYS how Cormyr has been.
Lord Karsus 01-17-08, 11:43 AM	I'm surprised that you would need a setting to have a static timeline in order to get into it, theoretically. In any case, if you want a good read from DL, I recommend the Legends trilogy. It has excellent focus on the characters and gives you a good feel of how the 4th Age has been building up (or recovering). BTW, the 4th Age is a very much enjoyed period of the setting to play in. -Just Dragonlance, as the War of the Lance era seems interesting, while all of the others don't really appeal to me.
MazrimTaim 01-17-08, 11:59 AM	You know, I think the only reason why I'm choosing to go with 4e is so I can re-do things my OWN way, not theirs. Some of the changes are forgivable to me. I'd welcome a new race of dragonborn, a return of Netheril, etc. However the trimming down of the Pantheon (depending on it's extent as you said, even then I don't like it) and the killing of Mystra is something I don't like whatsoever. And as it stands now all of these events just seem sort of thrown together and, well, messy. I can understand how you'd wish they had just sort of wiped the slate clean. ;) But I think Ed has said that there may be useful information in the FRCS, even for folks who don't go with the Spellplague in their Realms. I'm not flatout boycotting it but I'll probably flip through it at B&N and figure out if there's anything I can use. Or if I want to implement some of the elements into my own realms.
GreenKnight 01-17-08, 12:03 PM	Moreover, as another poster already asked: what happened to the Harpers? Weren't they supposed to work to keep nations small and accountable to the common folk to some extent? Or are they another thing that has been tossed by the wayside in 4E? Harpers still exist, and according to Rich Baker, have reunited with the Moonstars. And bear in mind that just because an organization has a stated goal that it tries to accomplish, that doesn't mean that they always succeed. After all, how many times have the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, and Cult of the Dragon fallen short of goals they've set for themselves?
MazrimTaim 01-17-08, 12:11 PM	I hope they decide not to get rid of the Blood War. :mad:
Lord Karsus 01-17-08, 12:12 PM	I hope they decide not to get rid of the Blood War. :mad: -They kinda did, but kinda didn't.
MazrimTaim 01-17-08, 12:18 PM	-They kinda did, but kinda didn't. How do you mean? A temporary truce?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-17-08, 12:55 PM	True...and not. Let's face it, The Zhentarim are almost certainly unchanged. They've got Fzoul and Manshoon as both immortal beings that will have absolutely no problem keeping everything under control from their point. Has that been confirmed yet? If so, where? It's been clear that no gods are DYING, they're just becoming Saints. SOME gods are dying. Some gods are becoming saints. The Harpers were pretty well :censored: by their split. All the smart guys left and became Moonstars yet they were micromanaged by Khelban and Larael....and well, Khelban is dead. I wouldn't assume the Harpers are down and out. Rich Baker has mentioned merging them back with the Moonstars for 4E (not saying I agree with a merging, but there you go).
Marcus Majarra 01-17-08, 12:56 PM	When you go through the old 1e and 2e sourcebooks, you come across page after page of wonderful personalities (NPCs). I really don't see that happening in 4e - they're all just stat blocks. I have a hard time seeing where you come up with this (the latter sentence), since we have no published 4E FR books with which to prove or disprove your claims. I also don't like the fact they are ending plots so decisively that they just introduced a couple of years ago. This was a foreseeable consequence. Look at it logically. Any significant advance in timeline means that some plotlines will be over and dealt with. The only way they could've achieved what you seem to want (ending plots appropriately before going forward) would be to simply stop publishing new plots and advance the setting after whatever's going on is done with. The thing is: I don't think Realms plots will ever stop occurring. What's more is that most Realms plots don't actually last more than a couple of years of real time. How long did it take to publish the Avatar Trilogy? One year. The Return of the Archwizards trilogy? Two years. The War of the Spider Queen sextet? Four years. There's one good thing about the long advance, however. In many cases, a plot only develops slowly. Benefits cash in only in the long term. It's quite possible that these "unfinished businesses" actually see completion in time for 4E. Just Dragonlance, as the War of the Lance era seems interesting, while all of the others don't really appeal to me. I can understand. This era had the one thing I really liked about DL than FR didn't seem to focus on: heroes of renown that aren't of ridiculously high levels. I guess this is one of the reasons that got me to like Eberron in the first place, too.
Alediran 01-17-08, 01:13 PM	Marcus, the heroes were powerful for the setting (something that many players should understand when using any setting, if the characters are powerful for the setting. In the realms, with the large quantity of high level characters, being a level 25 character isn't that powerful). I remember reading that gods took mortals over level 16 out of Krynn so there is an effective level cap to the setting (sucks if you are a wizard that wants to cast 9th level spells).
MarkusTay63 01-17-08, 01:34 PM	And as it stands now all of these events just seem sort of thrown together and, well, messy. I can understand how you'd wish they had just sort of wiped the slate clean. ;) Yes! That is exactly the one word I keep coming up with when I think of the so-called 'new' Realms - MESSY! Had they just gone and Nuked it, I would have been fine with my old setting and lore, and some 'cool', intersting new setting that they are just calling FR. I would have had two completely different things, and in my mind, that would have been better. But now, everything is so similar and MUNDANE - that all it is is a natural projection forward of the current events over a century (Tymanther withstanding, although we did know Unther would be gone). Don't forget, now that the Elves are back, Cormanthor has a defined border once again. The Empire of the Moon or whatever the hell they plan to call the 4e Zhent Kingdom will also have swollen and redefined its borders. Cormyr, sembia... It sounds like you step from one country now directly into another - in 3e we had hundress of miles of wilderness between most borders! Same to the West - not only is Luruar (SM) still there, along with its confederation, but we also have a shiney new kindom of orcs, and a brand new city-state sitting in what USED TO BE a wasteland; the Highmoor. That means we lost an entire wilderness area, not gained one! I'm sure the Lords alliance has grown as well, and Baldur's gate sounds like the beginnings of a Kingdom unto itself (they have to FEED all those people, right?) Add on top of that the Kingdom of Najara, which does indeed exist, even if most 'pink skins' don't know about it. It appears to me that ALL of these borders are bumping up against one another! Am I to assume that the only 'empty regions' - you know... the ones we were PROMISED - will be these new Plaguedlands? The Shaar was the one big open area where DMs cold plunk down just about anything they wanted - and now theres a great big hole in it! Well... a newer and bigger hole then before, at any rate... In the words of Stewey Griffon - "What the Hell, man?!" I can't wait to get my hands on the FRCG, because this doesn't sound anything like what they've been talking about. :( I have a hard time seeing where you come up with this (the latter sentence), since we have no published 4E FR books with which to prove or disprove your claims.Conjecture, based on the fact there will be seperate rules for 'monsters' and NPCs now - no longer will they be given the same treatment of skills and abilities as a full PC. This has been stated in the preview books, and various blogs/etc. It is thought that a creature doesn't need to be fleshed out any longer, because you most likely will only be using it for a minute or two. This is built-in to the design philosophy for 4e. I can pretty much gaurantee you that future releases of the minis will have everything you need to run an encounter right on the stat-card - better integration with the Miniatures Rules was also one of their goals. So yes, I haven't seen the rules, but if they are anything like they are describing, then monsters will be reduced to stat blocks and not much else.
Charles Phipps 01-17-08, 03:48 PM	But now, everything is so similar and MUNDANE, that all it is is a natural projection forward of the current events over a century (Tymanther withstanding, although we did know Unther would be gone). I never thought it would be otherwise. I always had the view Richard baker and his partners were interested in telling stories in THE Realms rather than making their own campaign setting. Honestly, a lot of the changes are just in line with their own view. The "new" Baldur's gate is the same one from the video games. The "new" Cormyr is Cormyr Pre-Dragon Scouring. The "new" Thay is the same old Thay Pre-Thaymart. The "new" Unther is the enslaved people from 1E.
johnkretzer 01-17-08, 03:58 PM	This was a foreseeable consequence. Look at it logically. Any significant advance in timeline means that some plotlines will be over and dealt with. The only way they could've achieved what you seem to want (ending plots appropriately before going forward) would be to simply stop publishing new plots and advance the setting after whatever's going on is done with. The thing is: I don't think Realms plots will ever stop occurring. What's more is that most Realms plots don't actually last more than a couple of years of real time. How long did it take to publish the Avatar Trilogy? One year. The Return of the Archwizards trilogy? Two years. The War of the Spider Queen sextet? Four years.. The plots listed were just novel plots which really don't translate well into a RPG plot hook(which is why I dislike novels set in a RPG world). Also conflicts among the gods (like between Eilistrae and Lolth; Cyric and Mystra; Shar and Mystra) should last a very long time and not end. Also that is nice and all that they had the conflict resolution except I was still playing those out as my campigns I play in and run has far more depth then a trilogy or such. So I am just pretty against the timeadvance because they did start some interesting plot lines that my characters would get involved in...and probably radically change the outcome. For instance in one game I am playing the Shades are not going to be taking over Sembia bercause we will stop them...they are many incidents of this. That is why such large time jumps don't work. It is also a very simple solution to this problem...they could just put soucebooks that convert current Realms to 4th edition. Then atleast they would have a chance of getting my group to convert to 4th edition...but for some unknown reason(I think it is because they are afraid their New Realms will sell badly against the Old Realms) they won't do this. There's one good thing about the long advance, however. In many cases, a plot only develops slowly. Benefits cash in only in the long term. It's quite possible that these "unfinished businesses" actually see completion in time for 4E.. Yeah but as a player and a DM I rather this completetion happened gradualy. I can understand. This era had the one thing I really liked about DL than FR didn't seem to focus on: heroes of renown that aren't of ridiculously high levels. I guess this is one of the reasons that got me to like Eberron in the first place, too. Really in a world with alot of history of evil forces it only is logical that the previous generations of heroes would still be around. It is the one thing I don't like about Eberron is the lack of high level adventures in the setting.(I still like it alot though...I just inserted some in...:) ) The main problem I have with the current design team is they are imposing their limitions on to the game.
Marcus Majarra 01-17-08, 06:03 PM	I remember reading that gods took mortals over level 16 out of Krynn so there is an effective level cap to the setting (sucks if you are a wizard that wants to cast 9th level spells). Really? I never read this. The only time I read of DL gods removing characters out of the setting was during the first Cataclysm, and it was mostly removing the true clerics and druids from the world (of all levels). Conjecture, based on the fact there will be seperate rules for 'monsters' and NPCs now - no longer will they be given the same treatment of skills and abilities as a full PC. This has been stated in the preview books, and various blogs/etc. It is thought that a creature doesn't need to be fleshed out any longer, because you most likely will only be using it for a minute or two. This is built-in to the design philosophy for 4e. I can pretty much gaurantee you that future releases of the minis will have everything you need to run an encounter right on the stat-card - better integration with the Miniatures Rules was also one of their goals. So yes, I haven't seen the rules, but if they are anything like they are describing, then monsters will be reduced to stat blocks and not much else. While I would agree with you here is the subject were stand-alone adventure modules, I don't see that there's any reason to believe this will be extended throughout the setting's array of NPCs. I'd much more expect to see NPCs without stat blocks, with a one-line description of what they are mechanically (i.e. LE male chondathan human wizard 15 / archmage 5), and a lot of fluff to go along. It is also a very simple solution to this problem...they could just put soucebooks that convert current Realms to 4th edition. Then atleast they would have a chance of getting my group to convert to 4th edition...but for some unknown reason(I think it is because they are afraid their New Realms will sell badly against the Old Realms) they won't do this. The bad news: they probably won't have to do this to keep the Realms alive. The good news: fans will do it if WotC doesn't. It is the one thing I don't like about Eberron is the lack of high level adventures in the setting. This is a misconception. High-level adventures are just as present in Eberron as they are in FR (and other settings). The big level difference between the two settings is that the world of Eberron (specifically, the continent of Khorvaire) isn't run by high-level characters. In other words, it takes more to running a country or an organization than having lots of class levels. What Eberron features less, however, are epic-level adventures.
Charles Phipps 01-18-08, 02:08 AM	yes, our 60th Characters are Evil Great Old Ones about to eat us in Eberron.
Lord Karsus 01-18-08, 04:38 AM	How do you mean? A temporary truce? -See Worlds and Monsters, the 4e preview book, and the 'Ask-the-Author' thread.
Storm_Silverhand 01-18-08, 06:15 AM	Heya, Really? I never read this. The only time I read of DL gods removing characters out of the setting was during the first Cataclysm, and it was mostly removing the true clerics and druids from the world (of all levels). Dragonlance Adventures pg 13. (Yep, I have the 1st Edition book, copyright is 1987, and the copy I have was printed in Australia under licence by Jedko Games.) General Limitations in Krynn. Player characters in other worlds can advance to unlimited levels, but not in Krynn. Once a player character advances beyond 18th level, the gods of Krynn feel that it is time to reassign him to some other world. Fortunately for the lovers of Krynn, advancement beyond 18th level is not mandatory. Your PC has the unique ability to refuse such advancement (and thereby stay within the world of Krynn). It is up to you. Those few individuals who remain in the world beyond 18th level do so either by special permission of the gods or by unnatural means. The priviledged few include such beings as the Dragon Highlords of the Queen of Darkness or Raistlin. Takhisis is always out to destroy the balance of the world. This is not to say that she grants such boons without great reason. The rule is that PCs who wish to remain in Krynn must forfeit any advancement beyond 18th level regardless of class; if they advance beyond that, the gods remove them from Krynn.
GreenKnight 01-18-08, 01:31 PM	Once a player character advances beyond 18th level, the gods of Krynn feel that it is time to reassign him to some other world. Huh. I wonder what world they got sent to?
johnkretzer 01-18-08, 01:34 PM	Huh. I wonder what world they got sent to? Well Spelljammer had a NPC that was 18th level who was asked to leave Krynn. That is the only example of a character that this happened to that I can think of.
Charles Phipps 01-18-08, 01:37 PM	Oddly, I just had them sent to an alternate version of Krynn. I also never had the players clued in to the fact that they were sent. ....then I ignored the rule because it was stupid.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 07:10 PM	Same to the West - not only is Luruar (SM) still there, along with its confederation, but we also have a shiney new kindom of orcs, and a brand new city-state sitting in what USED TO BE a wasteland; the Highmoor. That's not entirely true, because the City of Hope is supposed to be hidden to all but a few--not the type of place that's likely to become a major political entity. Also, the wasteland isn't gone, although it is supposed to slowly disappear, I think something like an inch per year (some super-slow rate).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 07:13 PM	The "new" Baldur's gate is the same one from the video games. I don't see it that way. The "new" Unther is the enslaved people from 1E. What makes you say that?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 07:20 PM	Okay, my turn to call you out regarding the Realms setting: The big level difference between the two settings is that the world of Eberron (specifically, the continent of Khorvaire) isn't run by high-level characters. In other words, it takes more to running a country or an organization than having lots of class levels. Running a country or organization isn't all about having lots of class levels in Faerun, either. If you flip through the sourcebooks, you'll see that there are plenty of rulers and leaders who are more mid-level, not "epic level". I'm not saying Faerun is no different from Eberron--Faerun does feature vastly more NPCs of very high levels. However, it's still fallacious to imply that all leaders in Faerun are of super high levels, or that having a lot of levels is "all it takes" to run things.
Charles Phipps 01-18-08, 07:21 PM	I don't see it that way. I do, Baldur's Gate in the games is a massive city that's equal to Amn in power. One, where Amn going to war against the city state would not be a total slaughter but have a realistic chance of being won by Baldur's Gate. In effect, able to fight on a King-to-Kingdom level. It was also a massively diverse city with lots of different peoples and burrows. What makes you say that? Fundamentally, the Unther exist to be oppressed. The problem with the Mulhorandi is the fact that they were enslaving them, only to give them better lives than they had as "free men" (which is a bad message to send to begin with). The Dragonborn enslaving the Untherese just returns things back to the God King Gilgeam in most ways.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 07:27 PM	I do, Baldur's Gate in the games is a massive city that's equal to Amn in power. One, where Amn going to war against the city state would not be a total slaughter but have a realistic chance of being won by Baldur's Gate. In effect, able to fight on a King-to-Kingdom level. It was also a massively diverse city with lots of different peoples and burrows. Baldur's Gate was like that in the older sources, too... Fundamentally, the Unther exist to be oppressed. The problem with the Mulhorandi is the fact that they were enslaving them, only to give them better lives than they had as "free men" (which is a bad message to send to begin with). The Dragonborn enslaving the Untherese just returns things back to the God King Gilgeam in most ways. Actually, where did it say in the preview that the Dragonborn enslaved anybody? I don't recall reading that at all. Along the shore of the Alamber Sea, old Unther was swept away by a catastrophic outbreak of the Spellplague. Where once ancient Unther stood now stands an arid mesa-land inhabited by draconic humanoids calling themselves dragonborn. This is the realm of Tymanther. The dragonborn have proven to be a proud, martial race, and in the decades since the Year of Blue Fire they have slowly tamed the ruined changeland from the Riders to the Sky all the way to the Black Ash Plain. Some say that the dragonborn are creations of Tiamat, hatched from vast incubators hidden beneath temples of the dragon-goddess in the cities of Unther. Others believe that the dragonborn are descended from the human population of the old empire, changed by the touch of the Spellplague into something no longer human. But the truth of the matter is even stranger: As it did in many other places in Faerûn, the Spellplague opened the door to some other realm entirely, wrenching the aeries and castles of the dragonborn from their native land—wherever that once was—and depositing them amid the chaos of devastated Unther. The dragonborn of Tymanther are highly militarized, and the “lords” of the land are those dragonborn who have proven themselves capable of leading their fellows. It is a harsh and unforgiving meritocracy, and each of the kingdom’s great clans is organized more like an army than a noble house. In the world from which they came, the dragonborn fought many terrible wars against true dragons, and they still harbor an ancestral hate for the winged wyrms. Tymanther lies atop the rubble of ancient Unther, and Untheric ruins are common throughout the land. Even in its decline, Unther was a rich and populous land, and many palaces and treasure vaults of the God-King’s favorites still wait to be discovered. In other places, broken cities carried into Faerûn from Tymanther’s appearance are likewise storehouses of gold, gems, and magical artifacts. Unfortunately, many powerful monsters settled into these Untheric and Tymantheran ruins during the Plague Years, and still pose a deadly threat to those who delve too deeply. The article didn't even mention Unther existing anymore, or humans still living there.
Charles Phipps 01-18-08, 07:27 PM	Running a country or organization isn't all about having lots of class levels in Faerun, either. If you flip through the sourcebooks, you'll see that there are plenty of rulers and leaders who are more mid-level, not "epic level". I'm not saying Faerun is no different from Eberron--Faerun does feature vastly more NPCs of very high levels. However, it's still fallacious to say that all leaders in Faerun are of super high levels, because that isn't the case. I also disagree that Eberron has as many high level characters as Faerun. Faerun is a MASSIVE, MASSIVE, place in diversity. In Faerun, there's nothing remotely off about Cyrde the 19th level Thayan Wizard in the Moonshaes being only "I could have been a Zulkir but I'm not." He's not even a major player in the world. You can insert someone like Jon Irenicus the 39th or whatever level Wizard as well without anyone looking at you strangely. Forgotten Realms is a land of hidden ancient powers and mysteries. Eberron is deliberately made so that the most powerful wizard in Eberron is a 16th Level Lich. It's not QUITE as bad as original Dragonlance where the head of the Conclaves were 13th level but its pretty damn close. Eberron is designed to have player characters be experienced veterans by 4th level and able to throw their weight around like Indiana Jones. It's also a major point that there ARE no heroes except the PCs. While it's silly King Azoun was 20th level, the prevalence in the land was much much higher.
Charles Phipps 01-18-08, 07:29 PM	Baldur's Gate was like that in the older sources, too... A simple head count would have Baldur's Gate crushed like an insect. Actually, where did it say in the preview that the Dragonborn enslaved anybody? I don't recall reading that at all. I thought it was pretty obvious.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 07:33 PM	A simple head count would have Baldur's Gate crushed like an insect. You think all that matters is head count? You don't think it matters that BG has plenty of other allies? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject. I thought it was pretty obvious. I think you made an assumption that isn't yet supported by any confirmed facts. See my post above...I copied and pasted the relevant part of the article there.
johnkretzer 01-18-08, 07:34 PM	It's also a major point that there ARE no heroes except the PCs. Which just to me makes Eberron lacking depth. With all that is going on in Eberron(which is about as much as say FR) if the PCs are the only heroes it would be a lost already. Again I liked Eberron but it's NPCs was built on a certain percentage of the gamer population whined that they couldn't be the Heroes because BPC x exists. So I had to add a few.
BadCatMan 01-18-08, 07:52 PM	Huh. I wonder what world they got sent to? Perhaps they went to Abeir-Toril? :D
Charles Phipps 01-18-08, 08:10 PM	You think all that matters is head count? You don't think it matters that BG has plenty of other allies? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject. I could also systematically explain to you that should a War with Amn happen, the Amn would finish them off in a day and raise the ashes without even breathing hard. Also, there would be no aid... Except, maybe to finish the Baldur's Gaters off. :-) Which just to me makes Eberron lacking depth. With all that is going on in Eberron(which is about as much as say FR) if the PCs are the only heroes it would be a lost already. Uh, yeah. Eberron is pretty much doomed. 1. An entire continent of about people, about equal in populous to Khorvaire, is controlled by the Quori. We're talking, basically, if there was a continent the size of Faerun that was completely under the control of Bane and his cronies for all intents and purposes. 2. There's a massive number of 60th level Super-Beings sleeping underneath Eberron's underdark. 3. There's a massive number of 20th level Super-Beings sleeping underneath Eberron's underdark. 4. There's a massive Undead Kingdom controlled by a Vampire Overlord. 5. There's a Sauron-style Kingdom of Demon Lords ruling over a vast Empire of Dust. 6. There's a Kingdom of Monsters ruled by insane hags. 7. The Gatekeepers who long ago bound the Bad Guys are extinct. 8. There's a massive hole in the center of the continent filled with inhuman horrors. 9. The most powerful force of good in the Church of the Silver Flame is also one that is explicitly hated by 3/4ths of the continent for being tied to a government. The major difference between Eberron and Faerun? Yeah, it's actually fairly explicit that Eberron is :censored: out of luck. If any of the Rajahs ever wake up, it will be the End of the WorldTM. No force on the world will oppose them and life will effectively cease to exist. Humans are small and insignificant creatures in Eberron with the most powerful force of good being weak compared to what's out there. It's very similiar to Call of Cthulhu and Film Noir (like Sin City) in that you really can't make Eberron WORSE because there's an all pervading sense of DOOM clinging to the setting. At any time, it could become Athas or Terminator 2: Judgement day. Again I liked Eberron but it's NPCs was built on a certain percentage of the gamer population whined that they couldn't be the Heroes because BPC x exists. So I had to add a few. In Eberron, I make it a point that idealism gets you killed. It's a bit like Athas in that respect or Ravenloft. The heroes of the setting have to either get "down and dirty" like Riddick or Ozymandiaz in order to make lasting changes in the world or they're idealists who are surrounded by people who think idealism is stupid. In Faerun, you have the Church of Tyr out to make the world a better place by slaying Fiend worshipping Orcs. In Eberron, you have people that will honestly say that Aundair people are subhuman, evil, and monstrous that deserve to be murdered to the last man. Why? Because you're from Breland. They're saying this about human beings and the irony is that they'll happily pat their Orc friend on the back. People will fight for Religion/Country/etc on Eberron but it's all very stupid because there's a bunch of Great Old One's living underneath you and none of that means anything when Cthulhu arises. Yes, you have James Bond and Solid Snake on Eberron plus your Paladins or your Druids... But most of them are involved with their own stuff hat the World Might be SavedTM when Gozar the Gozarian manifests by a bunch of Demons that want to conquer Earth for themselves. It's totally different genres.
Mr_Miscellany 01-18-08, 08:55 PM	I wouldn't say Eberron is doomed at all. The machinations of the Dragons and their sometimes error-prone interpretations of and meddling with the Draconic Prophecy could still save the day, IMO. Heroes in Eberron are like snowflakes. Just as a snowflake can be the last bit of mass needed to push an avalanche into motion, so too do the seemingly small actions of Eberron's heroes set in motion and even decide the outcome of far greater events. ::::::::::::::::::::: And a evil area to the north with the Fzoul's empire claiming the Moonsea area for the Dalelands and Cormanthor. Have we gotten anything definitive yet on the Zhentarim for 4E? Regardless I hope they stick around and consolidate their gains. I think that as soon as scribes, scholars and people/beings of power realize that places with magical wards survived much better than those that did not, there will be a drive to war for those places or mob them. From the PoV of a Faerûnian, who is to say that the Spellplague might not happen again? So I'm wondering if we're not going to soon be reading how the Zhents battled for the secrets of building mythals, if not for Myth Drannor itself, just after the Spellplague. It is actual interesting that this is such a 'good idea' considering people have said it is about time that Zhentil Keep took over Shadowdale...how long can the Dale lands stand against three evil empires being cut off from their allies? Great question. For my game, the players have learned that the Chosen have been injured/expelled/killed right out of Shadowdale and realized that -based on its history- those beings have acted like a stopper, keeping the various powers on its borders from gaining a foothold and thus an advantage. With them gone, the first power to act can win a territorial advantage against its neighbors --whether it be Sembia, the Feyri, Shade, Zhentil Keep and Cormyr. It's fun to see the Paladin player in my game work so hard at the Royal Court to try and convince the Royal Mage that she should convince the Regent to send an expeditionary force to at least the southern border of the Dales, just in case the Zhents or worse march on Shadowdale. As this relates to 4E....well, I think we'll have to wait until the FRCG comes out to see what the face of the Dales are 94 or so years later. Looking forward to it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-18-08, 09:02 PM	I could also systematically explain to you that should a War with Amn happen, the Amn would finish them off in a day and raise the ashes without even breathing hard. Also, there would be no aid... Except, maybe to finish the Baldur's Gaters off. I have two words for you. Lord's Alliance. But I don't want to go off on a tangent, here. This topic is for discussing the 4E Realms article, not a hypothetical war between Baldur's Gate and Amn (and "systematically explaining" your opinion about what might happen wouldn't hold much weight with me, because such a debate is, as I said, hypothetical).
XHereticX 01-18-08, 09:18 PM	Truely Eberron is the antithesis of Faerun in almost every way.
GreenKnight 01-18-08, 09:33 PM	Heh. "Gozar the Gozarian". :D The article didn't even mention Unther existing anymore, or humans still living there. Unther, the political entity, is most certainly gone. It hasn't been wiped utterly from existence, though. Tymanther lies atop the rubble of ancient Unther, and Untheric ruins are common throughout the land. Even in its decline, Unther was a rich and populous land, and many palaces and treasure vaults of the God-King’s favorites still wait to be discovered. In other places, broken cities carried into Faerûn from Tymanther’s appearance are likewise storehouses of gold, gems, and magical artifacts. Unfortunately, many powerful monsters settled into these Untheric and Tymantheran ruins during the Plague Years, and still pose a deadly threat to those who delve too deeply. But yeah, no mention of the people. It is actual interesting that this is such a 'good idea' considering people have said it is about time that Zhentil Keep took over Shadowdale...how long can the Dale lands stand against three evil empires being cut off from their allies? Well, two points. First off, the Dalelands aren't cut off from their allies. At least not entirely. We've got a resurrected Myth Drannor in Cormanthor, now, which the Dalelands share a border with. As for Cormyr, I saw no indication that Netheril shared a contiguous border with Sembia. If that's the case, then the Dalelands also share a border with Cormyr. Second of all, the Zhents likely despise Netheril. So while they're not friendly with the Dalelands, they're not about to make a move that might leave them vulnerable to Netherese attack. Hell, when it comes to Netheril/Sembia, Zhentil Keep may very well side with the Dalelands, Myth Drannor, and Cormyr! So things aren't completely dire for the Dalelands.
XHereticX 01-18-08, 09:37 PM	Heh. "Gozar the Gozarian". :D Unther, the political entity, is most certainly gone. It hasn't been wiped utterly from existence, though. But yeah, no mention of the people. Well, two points. First off, the Dalelands aren't cut off from their allies. At least not entirely. We've got a resurrected Myth Drannor in Cormanthor, now, which the Dalelands share a border with. As for Cormyr, I saw no indication that Netheril shared a contiguous border with Sembia. If that's the case, then the Dalelands also share a border with Cormyr. Second of all, the Zhents likely despise Netheril. So while they're not friendly with the Dalelands, they're not about to make a move that might leave them vulnerable to Netherese attack. Hell, when it comes to Netheril/Sembia, Zhentil Keep may very well side with the Dalelands, Myth Drannor, and Cormyr! So things aren't completely dire for the Dalelands. The thought of Fzoul being buddies with Elves and Obaskyrs makes me laugh:D As for the people of Unther, they're probably either slaves to the Dragonborn or they fled to Mulhorand and Chessenta.
GreenKnight 01-18-08, 09:39 PM	The thought of Fzoul being buddies with Elves and Obaskyrs makes me laugh:D Well, that's assuming Manshoon didn't drop kick him right out of the head honcho chair. :D Didn't Zhentil Keep send Cormyr some troops to help fight off the Tuigan Horde, though? They were just Orcs, sure. But when their own asses are on the line, they're willing to contribute SOMETHING to help their traditional enemies if it'll save their necks.
XHereticX 01-18-08, 09:59 PM	Well, that's assuming Manshoon didn't drop kick him right out of the head honcho chair. :D Didn't Zhentil Keep send Cormyr some troops to help fight off the Tuigan Horde, though? They were just Orcs, sure. But when their own asses are on the line, they're willing to contribute SOMETHING to help their traditional enemies if it'll save their necks. Ahh, but Netheril would be a far more lasting threat than a simple barbarian horde (which made me ****** about how much they dissed Asian/Mongol power by making them LOSE to a army 1/5 their size, the Mongols BEAT a European army 5 times their size). We're talking long term commitment. Frankly Fzoul try to play the two sides against each other and try to take advantage of the situation, in which he would fail miserbly, forcing him to align with the forces of good). The funny thing is, on a cosmic scale this might force Bane to seek out an alliance with his traditional enemies against Shar.
Dark Wizard 01-18-08, 10:49 PM	Ahh, but Netheril would be a far more lasting threat than a simple barbarian horde (which made me ****** about how much they dissed Asian/Mongol power by making them LOSE to a army 1/5 their size, the Mongols BEAT a European army 5 times their size). The whole Horde concept wasn't even a good ripoff of history.
XHereticX 01-18-08, 10:55 PM	The whole Horde concept wasn't even a good ripoff of history. FR has never tried to accuratly replicate history, they just take earthly cultural aspects and put them into their world and instill a different backstory and all. Still, the fact that the Tuigan were defeated by all their enemies that the Mongols defeated (Rasheman=Kievan Rus, Azoun's alliance=King Bela's Hungarian alliance, Shou Lung=Jurchen Jin Dynasty). The Mongols laid waste to all those civilizations easily and yet their Faerunian counterparts were destroyed even though they had massive numerical advantages (while the Mongols had tremedous disadvantages). It makes me mad.:mad:
Dark Wizard 01-18-08, 11:17 PM	Like I said, 'bad ripoff of real world history.' Taking a piece of history without really following it through in either historical context or Realms context. The Tuigan Horde never made much sense to me, even if I found the Empires trilogy somewhat enjoyable. I think that's why Kara-Tur partly failed, the novel series that premiered the setting mostly portrayed the Kara-Turans as losers and villains. All of the heroes and winners were on the Faerunian side. Not a great way to sell a fantasy setting. The planned OA Realms novel series hinted in the heroes lorebook bored me (based on the character information). So I don't think even heroic Kara-Tur would have held appeal for me if it actually got to that point. It's a shame, East Asia has a very lively, highly popular, and venerable genre similar to heroic fantasy (or sometimes sword and sorcery).
XHereticX 01-18-08, 11:21 PM	Yup, and the fact that in aGhOtR they made all of Kara-Tur look like some little spinoff of the Imaskari Empire (and in effect Faerun and the West) was a pretty low blow, especially to an ethnic Chinese person like me, who holds great pride in our history, culture, and heritage. Yeah, I know some East Asian "sword and sorcery." Ever heard of Louis Cha? Greatest Wu-Jen writer ever.
MarkusTay63 01-18-08, 11:22 PM	The Tuigan weren't defeated, their leader was defeated, causing the army to fall into disarray. The only thing holding those dozens of tribes and hundreds of clans together was the force of Yuman Kahan's personality. Once he was taken out, they fell to bickering and went back to their ancient inter-tribal feuds. They still had over a 100,000 men when they retreated in their standing army, and over 250,000 in reserve back in the Taan. Don't count them out - Obadai, Yamun's son, has been making great strides with his new kingdom of Yaïmmunahar. Who knows what kind of 'monster' that will be in 4e? Also, I think Zhentil Keep would ally with Cormyr, given the fact that they have done so in the past (not just the Tuigan thing, their was also that little war in the Dales). In fact, on NUMEROUS occasions, the Zhents have shown the werewithal to ally with their traditional enemies when a bigger threat is around. They've hinted they have something 'cool' planned for El in 4e, and supposedly Ed himaself is writing all the Elminster stuff. Maybe he will be Emperor Elminster the first of Thedales! :dancin: Unther, the political entity, is most certainly gone. It hasn't been wiped utterly from existence, though.The humans are there - they just live on the 'ranches' now - after all, those Draco... Dragonborn are going to need a foodsource, and a mighty BIG one. I never heard of a herbivore Dragon, have you? ;) At any time, it could become Athas or Terminator 2: Judgement day.What a cool idea! If I ever play in an Eberron Game, I'm going to name my Warforged charcter ARNOLD. "Come with me if you want to live" "I'll be back!" :dancin:
XHereticX 01-18-08, 11:27 PM	The Tuigan still disappoint me, I would expect the counterparts to the mighty Mongols to be more than just another dumb barbarian horde. An army of 250,000 Mongols could probably have conquered all of Eurasia at the rate they were going. Yeah, hopefully the next time around the Tuigan will utilize smokepowder weapons.
Charles Phipps 01-18-08, 11:36 PM	The Tuigan still disappoint me, I would expect the counterparts to the mighty Mongols to be more than just another dumb barbarian horde. An army of 250,000 Mongols could probably have conquered all of Eurasia at the rate they were going. Yeah, hopefully the next time around the Tuigan will utilize smokepowder weapons. This is fantasy land. Ghenghis Khan's Horde should have been crushed without incident. Dragons, Undead hordes, the works. Ugh.
XHereticX 01-18-08, 11:37 PM	This is fantasy land. Ghenghis Khan's Horde should have been crushed without incident. Dragons, Undead hordes, the works. Ugh. If its fantasy land then the Tuigan too should be raised to match the standard, just to be fair.
MarkusTay63 01-18-08, 11:38 PM	Fortunaetly for the west, and Kara-Tur as well, the Tugain are usually too busy fighting each other to bother anyone else. Thats why Yamun Kahan could never field his entire army - none of the tribes (except his own) would give him all their men, because they were afraid of raids from clans that didn't join them (there were a couple, from the Plain of Horses). So basically he had a total of 500,000 men at his disposal; 50,000 from his tribe and others that acted as his personal troops. then the rest of the army was divided into three shifts - one group of 150,000 would be active and fighting, a second group of 150,000 would be held in reserve (patroling the borders, garrisning captured places, etc), and the third 150,000 would be 'off'. That meant that they were home with their families, until called upon. He would rotate these three groups around, so he always had fresh troops (except for his personal 50,000). The biggest mistake he might have made was bringing in his reserves after Kara-Tur. He had lost many men, and wound up using the full 2/3 of his army that were 'on-duty' at the time when he marched west. Once he was killed, it was too difficult for Obadai to rally the troops, and their were no reserves to call in and save the day for him. They weren't defeated, so much as that they were out-smarted.
XHereticX 01-18-08, 11:46 PM	They weren't defeated, so much as that they were out-smarted. Hmm, Genghis woudn't have made a dumb mistake like that and would especially not be dumb enough to allow himself to engage in single combat with a warrior that is far better armed than he is. Hit-n-run, smokepowder, and pincer formations with the horseback archers could have won the day. Frankly, the Tuigan were dumbed down so that the "western heroes" could save the day.
Mr_Miscellany 01-18-08, 11:51 PM	Truely Eberron is the antithesis of Faerun in almost every way.Yup. Just about.
XHereticX 01-18-08, 11:53 PM	Yup. Just about. Until 4E comes out, which is when I will conveniantly stop purchasing Realms gaming products right after the FRCG (unless it actually dosen't disappoint me like I expect).;)
Charles Phipps 01-19-08, 12:03 AM	If its fantasy land then the Tuigan too should be raised to match the standard, just to be fair. No, because that would defeat the purpose of the better armed and more powerful heroes defeating the massive army. Frankly, the Westerners should be using gun powder. An accurate depiction of the Tuigan Horde would have swept Faerun aside but I'd rather they not completely blindside massively powerful magical and ancient cultures to do a repeat of the Khanate. Personally, it's actually more like a poor man's version of the Huns.
Dark Wizard 01-19-08, 12:10 AM	Yup, and the fact that in aGhOtR they made all of Kara-Tur look like some little spinoff of the Imaskari Empire (and in effect Faerun and the West) was a pretty low blow, especially to an ethnic Chinese person like me, who holds great pride in our history, culture, and heritage. I wasn't too keen on that either (coolly neutral I guess). Not to say that the Imaskari couldn't have played a role, but the bits in GHotR seemed too neat and tidy. It's a general trend with the Realms since even the 2e days, tie everything into the nearest ancient magical uber-empire. It's fun, but doesn't say much for variety, which I've always felt was a strong point of the Realms. It also doesn't promote each group getting their turn to shine ('good' shine or 'bad' shine), which I've always felt the Realms tried to do for the most part. Yeah, I know some East Asian "sword and sorcery." Ever heard of Louis Cha? Greatest Wu-Jen writer ever. Of course, there are college courses and academic studies on his work, considered by some as a whole sub-section in the classic literature of the region. The Tuigan weren't defeated, their leader was defeated, causing the army to fall into disarray. The only thing holding those dozens of tribes and hundreds of clans together was the force of Yuman Kahan's personality. Once he was taken out, they fell to bickering and went back to their ancient inter-tribal feuds. They still had over a 100,000 men when they retreated in their standing army, and over 250,000 in reserve back in the Taan. Yeah, that's essentially the definition of defeat. I think you're talking about utter destruction, which is something else entirely. The failure of the Horde was a defeat against the Tuigan as a threat, an army, even as a viable culture (see how Obadai felt they had to adopt 'civilized' ways). Note also that Yamun Khahan didn't fall out of favor with Teylas, both he and Teylas just didn't "have the right stuff." Their organization, despite minor successes, just doesn't hold up in the Realms. In the novels their numerical advantage was always secondary to their opponents' magical advantage. They didn't even have numerical advantage many of the time. The Shou had comparable numbers as did Thay to a lesser extent (except Thay had numbers AND magic). Don't count them out - Obadai, Yamun's son, has been making great strides with his new kingdom of Yaïmmunahar. Who knows what kind of 'monster' that will be in 4e? One of the best Dragon articles ever I think, given what the authors did with what they had to start with. It will most likely fall to the wayside in 4E, unless Ed (or someone) decides to give it some due. They've hinted they have something 'cool' planned for El in 4e, and supposedly Ed himaself is writing all the Elminster stuff. Maybe he will be Emperor Elminster the first of Thedales! :dancin: I recall Elminster infiltrated the Zhentarim at times, his cover holds a fairly high rank in the organization even, that is if my memory serves me right and that wasn't just a hallucination. What a cool idea! If I ever play in an Eberron Game, I'm going to name my Warforged charcter ARNOLD. "Come with me if you want to live" "I'll be back!" :dancin: "Get in the copter!"
XHereticX 01-19-08, 12:10 AM	No, because that would defeat the purpose of the better armed and more powerful heroes defeating the massive army. Frankly, the Westerners should be using gun powder. An accurate depiction of the Tuigan Horde would have swept Faerun aside but I'd rather they not completely blindside massively powerful magical and ancient cultures to do a repeat of the Khanate. Personally, it's actually more like a poor man's version of the Huns. Hmm, I say let them push further into Faerun but then obliterate them with divine intervention or powerful magic. Dark Wizard: I own The Legend of the Condor Heroes in mandarin and have watched TV adaptions of Demi-gods and Semi-devils and Legend of the Condor heroes, as well as one more I can't remember.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 12:40 AM	Yup, and the fact that in aGhOtR they made all of Kara-Tur look like some little spinoff of the Imaskari Empire (and in effect Faerun and the West) was a pretty low blow... -Not really. At least it gives the people of Kara-Tur a reason to exist on the same landmass, instead of wondering, "How the hell did a bunch of Oriental people get here?" Frankly, the Tuigan were dumbed down so that the "western heroes" could save the day. -After thinking about this for a moment, I agree. The Tuigan were nearly invincible in the first two novels. Once they crossed into Faerûn in the last novel, with the Red Wizards backing them, or, at least countering the power of Rasheman, they should have easily swept through, until at least Alglarond.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 12:44 AM	-Not really. At least it gives the people of Kara-Tur a reason to exist on the same landmass, instead of wondering, "How the hell did a bunch of Oriental people get here?" . There is always the good ole', they teleported from another world theory;) Still, Asians got the shaft in FR, while Middle Easterners were overtly vilified. Historically speaking, these were the world's most advanced cultures during the Postclassical Era, while Europe was still wallowing in its own feces in the Dark Ages. Ahh, the beauty of High Fantasy:)
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 12:47 AM	There is always the good ole', they teleported from another world theory;) -Aw, not that again! :yuck:
XHereticX 01-19-08, 12:52 AM	-Aw, not that again! :yuck: Hey, that still applies to the Mazticans
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 12:54 AM	Hey, that still applies to the Mazticans I'd say, let them have evolved from primates, as that would explain their more primitive viewpoint, and lack of connections to greater Abeir-Toril, but that's probably too controversial.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 12:55 AM	I'd say, let them have evolved from primates, as that would explain their more primitive viewpoint, and lack of connections to greater Abeir-Toril, but that's probably too controversial. Hmm, I would call it racism as well.
Charles Phipps 01-19-08, 12:59 AM	Still, Asians got the shaft in FR, while Middle Easterners were overtly vilified. Historically speaking, these were the world's most advanced cultures during the Postclassical Era, while Europe was still wallowing in its own feces in the Dark Ages. Ahh, the beauty of High Fantasy:) Ah yes, well we could do Zhakara and comparisons. "Oh yes, by the way, we view Orcs and other races equally because we're not STUPID AND RACIST like the Faeruners. Oh yes, and we're also cleaner/smarter/more religious/more moral than you." So what if it was true! I don't need to be lectured about Faerun by the authors! (the irony of course, that Faerun is a hyper-liberal and modern society with no relationship to Real World Europe----what with AFRICA and EGYPT sitting in the middle of it)
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:03 AM	The Shou DID teleport from another world. The Lung - the indigenous Oriental group - had nothing to do with Imaskar, and had their own culture and Kingdoms before being conquered by the Shou. The Celestial Emperor and most of his court were interlopers, but the local kami (gods and spirits) who are part of 'The Way' are native. The current pantheon is made up of deities from both of those groups, and many of them are part of the Padhran Faith studied by the kao peoples (the ethnic group of mixed Lung and Ang stock). Strangely, many western gods are also part of the Padhran Faith - I guess that must be from being on the border of campaign settings. So, FR has it native Orientals as well - and LK, thats an odd question you posed, considering RW Orientals live on the opposite end as the SAME landmass as Europeans. EXACTLY like it is in FR, right down to the Mongol Horde. ;)
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:03 AM	Hmm, I would call it racism as well. -See, there you go. So, FR has it native Orientals as well - and LK, thats an odd question you posed, considering RW Orientals live on the opposite end as the SAME landmass as Europeans. EXACTLY like it is in FR, right down to the Mongol Horde. ;) -That's exactly the point.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:04 AM	Ah yes, well we could do Zhakara and comparisons. "Oh yes, by the way, we view Orcs and other races equally because we're not STUPID AND RACIST like the Faeruners. Oh yes, and we're also cleaner/smarter/more religious/more moral than you." So what if it was true! I don't need to be lectured about Faerun by the authors! (the irony of course, that Faerun is a hyper-liberal and modern society with no relationship to Real World Europe----what with AFRICA and EGYPT sitting in the middle of it) I am not understanding your position here. I really don't care, since it is just a fantasy game and if it is too much like the real world it would be boring and pointless. Still, I would like to see more detail and credit given to the Kara-Turans.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:06 AM	You will, very soon. As I said, the Lung people had their own culture and Kingdoms before the Shou arived.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:07 AM	The Shou DID teleport from another world. The Lung - the indigenous Oriental group - had nothing to do with Imaskar, and had their own culture and Kingdoms before being conquered by the Shou. The Celestial Emperor and most of his court were interlopers, but the local kami (gods and spirits) who are part of 'The Way' are native. The current pantheon is made up of deities from both of those groups, and many of them are part of the Padhran Faith studied by the kao peoples (the ethnic group of mixed Lung and Ang stock). Strangely, many western gods are also part of the Padhran Faith - I guess that must be from being on the border of campaign settings. So, FR has it native Orientals as well - and LK, thats an odd question you posed, considering RW Orientals live on the opposite end as the SAME landmass as Europeans. EXACTLY like it is in FR, right down to the Mongol Horde. ;) Hmm, I knew that the Shou were interlopers, but I never knew about the Lung being indigenous. Also, I thought GHoTR overruled the old stuff, so the whole interloper thing never applied.
Charles Phipps 01-19-08, 01:07 AM	I am not understanding your position here. I really don't care, since it is just a fantasy game and if it is too much like the real world it would be boring and pointless. Still, I would like to see more detail and credit given to the Kara-Turans. *sigh* I was making a joke that the supplements for "Real World Analogues" in the Forgotten Realms were often superficial and lacked any sort of connection to the greater whole of Faerun. Furthermore, they tended to take a condescending tone to Faerun when most of them were really saying "Zhakara (The Middle East) is much more advanced than EUROPE" when it honestly isn't more advanced than Faerun....because Faerun isn't Europe. Faerun has Mulhorandi (Egypt) and Chult (Africa) plus Calimport (Istanbul) sitting in the middle of it.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:10 AM	I was making a joke that the supplements for "Real World Analogues" in the Forgotten Realms were often superficial and lacked any sort of connection to the greater whole of Faerun. -Some of the best online articles were Eytan Bernstein's articles talking about Classes in Kara-Tur. Some of my favorite points in AGHotR are the ones that smooth the Faerûn-Kara-Tur (and the other 'extra settings') transition. -Kara-Tur has/had so much potential, and it really is a shame that because of the way it was handled, things went sour.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:12 AM	*sigh* I was making a joke that the supplements for "Real World Analogues" in the Forgotten Realms were often superficial and lacked any sort of connection to the greater whole of Faerun. Furthermore, they tended to take a condescending tone to Faerun when most of them were really saying "Zhakara (The Middle East) is much more advanced than EUROPE" when it honestly isn't more advanced than Faerun....because Faerun isn't Europe. Faerun has Mulhorandi (Egypt) and Chult (Africa) plus Calimport (Istanbul) sitting in the middle of it. Toril wasn't made to reflect the world in a magical mirror as much as a place where real-world cultural influences were applied to a fantasy setting. I understood the analogue joke part and that they were superficial, but I didn't exactly understand what you were arguing. Chult isn't Africa by the way, that continent south of Maztika (Khakasha or whatever its called) is. Though 2 tribes from the continent came to Chult at the call of Ubtao and settled Chult, creating today's Chultans.
Dark Wizard 01-19-08, 01:18 AM	No, because that would defeat the purpose of the better armed and more powerful heroes defeating the massive army. Of course the full formula usually goes something like: Heroes and allies encounter bad guys who is not only superior numerically but magically/technologically/etc. Heroes get defeated (perhaps an ally dies to emphasize the dangers). Heroes quest for armaments and powers as the situation with the bad guy continues to look grim. Heroes gets their act together and face bad guys again to defeat them. None of the Tuigan Horde plots really went through something like this. Frankly, the Westerners should be using gun powder. Not if we're taking equivalents to the Mongols, then it is the Easterners who should have greater access to gunpowder at that time if anything (amongst other technologies). Though we really shouldn't do that because neither the Faerunians or the Tuigan are their Earth counterparts (The Tuigan just come a lot closer than most examples). An accurate depiction of the Tuigan Horde would have swept Faerun aside but I'd rather they not completely blindside massively powerful magical and ancient cultures to do a repeat of the Khanate. Personally, it's actually more like a poor man's version of the Huns. I don't think anyone is saying that, but they could have been more menacing in regards to their setup when compared to their Faerunian counterparts. It's all about creating dramatic tension and viable enemies. At all times, the Horde was made up as this numerically superior foe but also at all times, their enemies were saved from defeat by undisputed magical superiority. The Tuigan didn't even win their encounters in Shou Lung (when the Mongols did take over China.) This is why it's not good to model anything too closely to the real world while still trying to use the context of Faerun. Dark Wizard: I own The Legend of the Condor Heroes in mandarin and have watched TV adaptions of Demi-gods and Semi-devils and Legend of the Condor heroes, as well as one more I can't remember. I can't read Chinese so I don't have any of his books, though my dad has a bunch of them. I have tried to catch as many of the TV adaptations as I can. My favorites are Return of the Condor Heroes '95/'96 version and Demi-gods and Semi-devils from that same era (despite the cheesy special effects). For some odd reason I don't think I've ever seen Legend of the Condor Heroes. I've tried the new mainland adaptation of RotCH, I like the look of it, but it's a bit more angsty than I remember the '95 HK version. I try to catch everything from that genre (not just stuff adapted from Louis Cha) that I can get my hands on, most of it is bad, some of it is great, but thats how everything goes.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:25 AM	Yeah, I've watched some other Wu-Jen videos too. Number one Under Heaven (I think the translation is called) is a good one. Though I watch them all in chinese:D I like angst
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:28 AM	Hmm, I knew that the Shou were interlopers, but I never knew about the Lung being indigenous. Also, I thought GHoTR overruled the old stuff, so the whole interloper thing never applied.Brian worked out a lot of the history for K-T in the GHotR - some of which hasn't seen publication yet, but it is still viable (some was part of his PDF version of GHotR - but it got cut). He never said that the Shou didn't interlope - he wasn't very fond of that piece of lore either, but unlike most of todays designers, he prefers to keep previous lore intact whenever possible. Ergo, the Shou interloped, in the region of the Quoya desert (which was known as the Quoya basin back then, and was very fertile), and immediately 'hooked-up with' the Imaskari. Thats why their are two kingdoms at one point - The tall, sallow skinned, 'elven eyed' strangers were part of Imaskar, but pretty much kept to themselves. After Imaskar fell, many new 'survivor states' rose up in its place (at least seven that I know of), Anok-Imaskar being one of them. So that Empire was really the last age of Imaskar, but the first age of Shou-Lung. As they conquered the Lung people to the east, they moved their capital several times, until finally it sits where we know it is today. Some of this is canon, some from Brian, and a little bit thrown in by a couple of other designers and myself. There should be a semi-official timeline available for some of this pretty soon. Hopefully a good deal of it will become official canon over time (god willing). Theres a whole facinating story there waiting to be told, concerning Fallen Raumathar, The Copper Demon of Troos, and lost Tsharoon... ;)
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:33 AM	-MT, you trying to tell us something? In that first paragraph, the following words, for whatever reason, stood out: interlope fertile hooked-up
XHereticX 01-19-08, 01:37 AM	-MT, you trying to tell us something? In that first paragraph, the following words, for whatever reason, stood out: interlope fertile hooked-up Hmm, first someone got cockblocked, then the lady got sown with the blocker's seed, and after that they got engaged. Is that a good translation?:)
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:37 AM	-MT, you trying to tell us something? In that first paragraph, the following words, for whatever reason, stood out: interlope fertile hooked-upYou have a one-track mind, or something? :D Yes, the High Imaskari and the Shou got together and made babies... THERE! Are you satisfied now? :P Also, I accidently said Netheril - I fixed it.
Dark Wizard 01-19-08, 01:41 AM	Theres a whole facinating story there waiting to be told, concerning Fallen Netheril, The Copper Demon of Troos, and lost tsharoon... ;) Sounds good. Hopefully the timeline clears some things up. I recall reading the .pdf GHoftR and the Lung were pegged as the interlopers, so I really don't know what is what anymore. It's a big mess to me, glad someone is sorting it out. Yeah, I've watched some other Wu-Jen videos too. Number one Under Heaven (I think the translation is called) is a good one. Though I watch them all in chinese:D I like angst I haven't heard of that one, I'll try to look it up. I am able to understand (more or less) all of the period stuff in Cantonese and I'm fortunate that HK has a good output for this genre and a good history of it. However, with the excellent quality of stuff coming out of the mainland in the last decade, I'm really considering learning Mandarin so I can broaden my sampling. I can only stand angst in very limited purposeful doses. Overall I'm terribly warped with this whole dual-culture thing, neither here or there, so I have very odd expectations of what should be what.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:47 AM	Ack!!! You quoted me before I made the empire name-change! Its Raumathar, not Netheril. About the Interloper thing - some of that was changed by Brian when it made the final cut into the print GHotR. As of right now, the Shou were Interlopers and the Lung were the natives... I least I think so... maybe I should ask Brian again. :( I remeber there was a thread here a long while ago, where myself and several others (Gray? Georg K?) were bouncing ideas off of each other, and came up with a basis for some of the stuff that went down in that area. After the GHotR came out, some of that got 'messed up', but I've been able to patch it up with Brians help. The timeline became extremely extensive, so I need to break it down into smaller chunks. K-T is a huge area, especially when you include the Horde Region, Malatra, and the Larang Valleys. WAY too much history for a single timeline - it would be as long as the first GHotR.
Lord Karsus 01-19-08, 01:50 AM	You have a one-track mind, or something? :D -No, but, you know. Sometimes different things pop up more than others. That wasn't supposed to be sexual innuendo, either.
msatran 01-19-08, 03:45 AM	You have a one-track mind, or something? :D Yes, the High Imaskari and the Shou got together and made babies... THERE! Are you satisfied now? :P Also, I accidently said Netheril - I fixed it. Oooh, he said Netheril...No! Whoops! I said it too! !@$%$$@!!!! :)
XHereticX 01-19-08, 09:20 AM	I haven't heard of that one, I'll try to look it up. I am able to understand (more or less) all of the period stuff in Cantonese and I'm fortunate that HK has a good output for this genre and a good history of it. However, with the excellent quality of stuff coming out of the mainland in the last decade, I'm really considering learning Mandarin so I can broaden my sampling. I can only stand angst in very limited purposeful doses. Overall I'm terribly warped with this whole dual-culture thing, neither here or there, so I have very odd expectations of what should be what. I woudn't do that if I were you. Believe me, learning Chinese is LIVING HELL. You really want to memorize 10,000 characters? I havn't watched a Wu-Jen in a while though, I'll ask my mom to rent another one:) . I don't like the old ones as much because they are often cheesy and have bad graphics (yes, I think I've watched one of the old Book and the Sword ones). The new ones are far more intircate and deep, with more romance and angst as well. It's like an anime, except unanimated;)
Alkasyn 01-19-08, 03:09 PM	I woudn't do that if I were you. Believe me, learning Chinese is LIVING HELL. You really want to memorize 10,000 characters? But only around three thousand of them are requried to read a newspaper, right?? So it ain't THAT bad:P
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 03:20 PM	Besides, he only wants to be able to watch movies, right? or is he going to read novels? :confused: Being able to understand a language in the most basic sense doesn't require nearly as much work as reading it. I've worked with Hispanics most of my life, and know about 100 words or so (maybe more), but I can watch a Spanish TV program and get the 'gist' of what they are talking about. I couldn't tell you what they are saying word-for-word, but I know what the conversation is about, and thats enough to enjoy them (somewhat). I remember watching Throne of Blood on late-night TV a long time ago, and although the entire thing is in Japanese, I figured out it was really MacBeth after only a few minutes - and I still enjoyed it.
XHereticX 01-19-08, 04:44 PM	Besides, he only wants to be able to watch movies, right? or is he goinf gto read novels? :confused: Being able to understand a language in the most basic sense doesn't require nearly as much work as reading it. I've worked with Hispanics most of my life, and know about 100 words or so (maybe more), but I can watch a Spanish TV program and get the 'gist' of what they are talking about. I couldn't tell you what they are saying word-for-word, but I know what the conversation is about, and thats enough to enjoy them (somewhat). . It's similar with me and the chinese flicks. My chinese isn't good, so I barely understand most things except easy passages and everyday speech, but I can still understand enough to enjoy it.
Iakhovas 01-19-08, 07:40 PM	I recall reading the .pdf GHoftR and the Lung were pegged as the interlopers, so I really don't know what is what anymore. It's a big mess to me, glad someone is sorting it out.This didn't sound right, so I double checked. The .pdf on page 11 says the following... "The celestial dragon T`ien Lung led a tribe of humans north and east to settle among the modern day lands of Semphar, Skalhoond Forest, and The Firepeaks. These humans became known as Lung, the ancestors of the Tuigan, Shou, Wang, and other human ethnicities of Kara-Tur and the Far East."This was derived from earlier lore revealed in Candlekeep Compendium IV p.10,11The Celestial Dragon -30,600 DR Second born of Yaldabaoth was Serpens, the Beguiler. Unlike her war-bred sister Lotan, Serpens was more subtle and cunning in her ambitions. Where Lotan wished only to crush and conquer the Batrachi, Serpens wished to learn from them. For a time, Serpens transformed herself into the octopoid form a tako. In this form she was able to better learn the history and customs of the Batrachi. Eventually leaving the Black Sea behind, Serpens traveled on land. Disguised as a human woman, she traveled far and learned much. After traveling the width and breadth of Merrouroboros for over two thousand years, Serpens was most intrigued by mankind. During the coming dragon flight against the aearee and the further distant Draco Holy Wars, Serpens gathered many tribes of man and led them far to the east and safety. These human tribes(1) came to know Serpens as T`ien Lung, the Celestial Dragon and revered her as a goddess in her own right. (1)Ancestors of the modern day peoples of Kara-Tur So really the origin story for the Lung is pretty clear, having always been designated as a native people. The Shou peoples are not descendants of the Lung, however. They interloped to the Realms; taken as slaves by Imaskar in the same manner as the Mulan. This connection is not made clear in the Grand History unfortunately, but it was always my intent.
Dark Wizard 01-19-08, 09:11 PM	So really the origin story for the Lung is pretty clear, having always been designated as a native people. The Shou peoples are not descendants of the Lung, however. They interloped to the Realms; taken as slaves by Imaskar in the same manner as the Mulan. This connection is not made clear in the Grand History unfortunately, but it was always my intent. Thank you for the answer Brian. That clears things up a bit. I was trying to sort out the early history of Kara-Tur for myself but my sources are limited in that I was not aware of the Candlekeep Compendium article (I'm not sure how much of it trickles down into official lore or fan-crafted lore). The impression I got from the original Grand History .pdf seemed to have the Lung suddenly pop up under the guidance of T'ien Lung, so to me they seemed like interlopers who inexplicably found themselves in Toril. I guess sometimes what the author wants to say is not always made clear in the book (understandable given the limited space and the massive scale of a project like GH). Hopefully someday you will have the opportunity to specify that area of Realmslore.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-19-08, 09:59 PM	Faerun has Mulhorandi (Egypt) and Chult (Africa) plus Calimport (Istanbul) sitting in the middle of it. Don't necessarily agree with all the real world comparisons in this thread, but I'm going to call out the bit on Chult. How is Chult the equivalent of Africa? It has dinosaurs! Besides, Chult is all jungle, whereas the majority (a good two-thirds?) of Africa isn't jungle.
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 11:27 PM	Its mythical Africa, taken from Edgar Rice Burroughs novels and old movies. Just like Zakhara ISN'T the Middle-East - it is the 'pulp' version of Arabia taken form movies and The Thousand and One Nights. @Brian - thanks for clearing that up. One thing, I don't think the Shou were slaves - I think they were interlopers and on par with the Imaskari, so they were accepted and treated as equals. I plan on touching on a tiny bit of that in my next CK article (I have to make it very short though, because the article's focus is elsewhere).
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 03:02 AM	How is Chult the equivalent of Africa? It has dinosaurs! Besides, Chult is all jungle, whereas the majority (a good two-thirds?) of Africa isn't jungle. -Africa has dinosaurs! ;)
Voran 01-20-08, 07:33 AM	Big time jumps, aside from being a potentially cheap-out, are risky. There's the jump on the level of TOS -> TNG, where while there's been a big jump from the original, it exists in a 'logical progression' from the previous stuff. But these aren't flawless. For every decent TOS to TNG, you also get a Knight Rider to Knight Rider 2000 kinda thing. Then there's the ZOMG ZOMBIENUKEPOCALYPSE! time jump. Star Wars has toyed with this situation a couple times now.
GreenKnight 01-20-08, 09:52 AM	-Africa has dinosaurs! ;) And giant apes, if you believe King Kong.
Lord Karsus 01-20-08, 10:03 AM	-Giant apes? Grape Apes, perhaps?
GreenKnight 01-20-08, 10:26 AM	-Giant apes? Grape Apes, perhaps? http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/2271917grapeape.jpg
MarkusTay63 01-20-08, 12:58 PM	Nahhhh... The big Monkey lives on an Island, not Africa. You're thinking of his much smaller cousin, Mighty Joe Young.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-20-08, 07:46 PM	Its mythical Africa, taken from Edgar Rice Burroughs novels and old movies. As I said in the People and Places forum (this is a general comment, btw), to call Chult "Africa" does a disservice to the fact that Africa is HUGE and diverse, much more so than Chult is (and I love Chult, btw). Africa has desert, mountains, and plains as well as jungle. It has a plethora of animals that live there AND a large variety of human cultures as well. Again, I love Chult, I just don't agree with the idea of it being Africa's "representation" in the Realms. I WOULD agree that Chult evokes ideas about certain parts of Africa, though.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-20-08, 07:48 PM	-Africa has dinosaurs! ;) Only as fossils.:D And giant apes, if you believe King Kong. Oh geez, I saw that movie... Wonderful movie...but being so old, it has some not-so-wonderful stereotypes in it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-20-08, 07:49 PM	Nahhhh... The big Monkey lives on an Island, not Africa. Wasn't it an African island?
GreenKnight 01-20-08, 07:53 PM	This post is made of FAIL!
Iakhovas 01-20-08, 08:25 PM	Wasn't it an African island?Not unless Africa is an island in the South Pacific. :mymy:
Charles Phipps 01-20-08, 08:44 PM	It's not?
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-20-08, 09:06 PM	It's not? Are you serious? :eek:
Charles Phipps 01-20-08, 09:12 PM	No. :P
BadCatMan 01-20-08, 09:13 PM	There are dinosaurs in Africa, supposedly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokele Chult is more like just the Congo, complete with its own Mokele-mbembe. I don't much about Samarach and Thindol and the others on the peninsula though - are they African-flavoured? King Kong comes from Skull Island, in the Pacific.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-20-08, 09:22 PM	No. :P :pint:
Lord Karsus 01-21-08, 02:56 AM	Not unless Africa is an island in the South Pacific. :mymy: -If you want to stretch things, and ignore the Indian Ocean, sure, it is. One side, anyway.
Suin Bahhar 01-21-08, 03:28 PM	Chult is more like just the Congo, complete with its own Mokele-mbembe. I don't much about Samarach and Thindol and the others on the peninsula though - are they African-flavoured?Thindol feels a bit like Arabian/Calimshan mixed with Southamerica/Chult and Samarach is a more Junglish Indonesian mix. Specially Thindol has heavy influence from Zakhara, Calimshan, Hondleth, and the western Shaar areas. They are both hard to pin down as similar to one RL world region and have their own realmsian geography.
MarkusTay63 01-21-08, 03:51 PM	Think Morocco - where "Arabian meets Africa" The rest of those small southern realms are like the Gold Coast. Sorry, Rinon. ;)
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 05:08 PM	I thought Calisham was Istanbul. and Amn was like Spain.
msatran 01-21-08, 05:14 PM	Sounds good, only now Chris Perkins and Rich Baker are both big fat turkeys, stuffed with their own egoes and their desire to squash the Forgotten Realms and it's glorious beauty into oblivion. Hey. Wait a minute? Didn't the Byzantine Empire collapse under it's own weight? Yeah. Yeah it did.
Charles Phipps 01-21-08, 05:16 PM	That's uncalled for.
msatran 01-21-08, 05:24 PM	Uncalled for would be Mystra's death. Uncalled for would be yet another cosmic crisis worthy of Dan Didio and Geoff Johns. Uncalled for would be Baldur's Gate, clone of Sharn in Eberron. They could have fixed these problems with a scalpel. Instead, they used a hammer and tongs.
sfdragon 01-21-08, 05:54 PM	bad ideas mixed with good ideas, is still bad.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-21-08, 07:41 PM	Think Morocco - where "Arabian meets Africa" The rest of those small southern realms are like the Gold Coast. Sorry, Rinon. ;) 'S Ok.:) And I stand corrected regarding Skull Island.
Mr_Miscellany 01-22-08, 02:56 AM	Uncalled for would be Baldur's Gate, clone of Sharn in Eberron. I didn't know a manifest zone sprung up in Baldur's Gate that set all the buildings to floating. Where'dja here that, pray tell? :P :P :P
msatran 01-22-08, 02:58 AM	I didn't say it was a WORKING clone. :)
MarkusTay63 01-22-08, 03:16 AM	I'm not seeing it - Baldur's Gate is a huge, sprawling mess now, and Sharn goes straight up. Baldur's gate looks like Calimport North now, to me. I guess the original one was too far a walk, so they changed BG to fit - and added interacial ghettoes. Now thats original. ;)
johnkretzer 01-22-08, 03:33 AM	I'm not seeing it - Baldur's Gate is a huge, sprawling mess now, and Sharn goes straight up. Baldur's gate looks like Calimport North now, to me. I guess the original one was too far a walk, so they changed BG to fit - and added interacial ghettoes. Now thats original. ;) Except for which direction they go they do sprawl. They do it for one reaqson and that is so everybody no matter what race, region of orgin, or class can all start from the same city. Baldur's Gate the largest inn for DMs to start a campaign in. :)
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:27 AM	Except for which direction they go they do sprawl. They do it for one reaqson and that is so everybody no matter what race, region of orgin, or class can all start from the same city. Baldur's Gate the largest inn for DMs to start a campaign in. :) -That's the biggest problem I had with Baldur's Gate. I have no problem with a massive influx of refugees, though when you analyze the details, it does become a little suspect. What I do have a problem with is...Why are Elves fleeing to Baldur's Gate? Why are Dwarves fleeing to Baldur's Gate? Etc., etc.
johnkretzer 01-22-08, 04:39 AM	-That's the biggest problem I had with Baldur's Gate. I have no problem with a massive influx of refugees, though when you analyze the details, it does become a little suspect. What I do have a problem with is...Why are Elves fleeing to Baldur's Gate? Why are Dwarves fleeing to Baldur's Gate? Etc., etc. Also the question remains why did Baldur's Gate take them in? I mean here we are with the world going though hell. Probably due to lack of trade and such they are having problems feeding the people already in the city. So are you going to tell me that a city runned by practicle mercs. who have fought in many a campaign and have seen what refugees can do to a area...and if they are anybody on the FR w/ a lifeboat mentality it is them...aren't only going to magicaly create food to feed all these new people, but are actualy going to have the resouces and time to build a series of city walls...adding more to the city also by the way. Yeah I know it is a fantasy game...but fantasy doesn't = stupid.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:44 AM	Also the question remains why did Baldur's Gate take them in? I mean here we are with the world going though hell. Probably due to lack of trade and such they are having problems feeding the people already in the city. So are you going to tell me that a city runned by practicle mercs. who have fought in many a campaign and have seen what refugees can do to a area...and if they are anybody on the FR w/ a lifeboat mentality it is them...aren't only going to magicaly create food to feed all these new people, but are actualy going to have the resouces and time to build a series of city walls...adding more to the city also by the way. Yeah I know it is a fantasy game...but fantasy doesn't = stupid. -Well, that;s why I said that when you analyze the details of the story, it becomes a little suspect.
sfdragon 01-22-08, 04:47 AM	can we cast 4E earthquake on a massice scale and shake the city off into the sea? it was where I first started, even if it was a crpg, but I'd rather see it destroyed they a huge mess that goes up and down the sword coast.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:49 AM	can we cast 4E earthquake on a massice scale and shake the city off into the sea? -Apparently, then, there'd be no one left in the Forgotten Realms...;) :P
Charles Phipps 01-22-08, 04:49 AM	-That's the biggest problem I had with Baldur's Gate. I have no problem with a massive influx of refugees, though when you analyze the details, it does become a little suspect. What I do have a problem with is...Why are Elves fleeing to Baldur's Gate? Why are Dwarves fleeing to Baldur's Gate? Etc., etc. Not everything has to be complex. Baldur's Gate is a stable and large city that has a massive army that will take them in. Gnomes, Dwarves, Elves, and Half-breeds find it an ocean of stability in a world gone to :censored: So are you going to tell me that a city runned by practicle mercs. who have fought in many a campaign and have seen what refugees can do to a area...and if they are anybody on the FR w/ a lifeboat mentality it is them...aren't only going to magicaly create food to feed all these new people, but are actualy going to have the resouces and time to build a series of city walls...adding more to the city also by the way. I don't know, why *don't* they have food to feed them? It's not like Baldur's Gate became the Sprawl that it is overnight. The Council probably put the refugees to work. Dwarves are always skilled labor and so are Elves + Gnomes. They probably built their new dwellings and there's plenty of untamed land out there to transform into farmland. Because, let's see, what's the BEST way to deal with a refugee problem. *I KNOW* let's let a bunch of centuries old Dwarves and Elves with no food or infrastructure that are probably all veterans of Wars against Orcs, Fey'ri, and other conflicts run wild outside of our city walls. In fact, let's let them form pretty much an army that is forced to pillage and loot to survive. :-)
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:59 AM	Not everything has to be complex. Baldur's Gate is a stable and large city that has a massive army that will take them in. Gnomes, Dwarves, Elves, and Half-breeds find it an ocean of stability in a world gone to :censored: -In a world gone to :censored:, why are Dwarves and/or Elves mingling with races they have a traditional disdain for? Why are the Elves fleeing to Baldur's Gate, and not Evermeet, Evereska, or some of the deeper forests where Wood Elves rule? Why are the Dwarves fleeing to Baldur's Gate, and not some of their own traditional settlements?
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-22-08, 08:24 AM	'Cause Baldur's Gate is where its at, B.
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-22-08, 08:29 AM	Oh yeah the world is crumbling, theres whole swats of land belching forth monstrosities. I have a good idea! Lets make a 3 month journey to our ancestral homelands instead of a 5 day hike to that big town... And do me a favor, since grandpa, dad and bro died in the catastrophe, hand little Timmy the swords, you know, in case those monsters attack while we're crossing hundreds of miles of Plaguelands! Sure. Edit: Thats even considering that they even believe their racial strongholds still stand. Fact is refugees don't choose where they go, word of mouth gets out that Baldur's Gate still stands, and everyone who is in the area and has any sense runs towards it.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 08:34 AM	Oh yeah the world is crumbling, theres whole swats of land belching forth monstrosities. I have a good idea! Lets make a 3 month journey to our ancestral homelands instead of a 5 day hike to that big town... And do me a favor, since grandpa, dad and bro died in the catastrophe, hand little Timmy the swords, you know, in case those monsters attack while we're crossing hundreds of miles of Plaguelands! Sure. -Good thing the Elven traditional homelands and stomping grounds are in the West, and Dwarven traditional homelands and stomping grounds are in the West and/or the Underground, whereas the Plaguelands are in the east. :rolleyes:
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-22-08, 08:46 AM	I was under the impression that there are Spellplague areas all around, at least there where before it got under control... Remember, for the people of the Realms the Spellplague and its contention (and extermination) to some areas didn't happen in the same instant... We read an article in which all was explained, they lived through the disasters. 100 years did pass for them, and the article says many zones were "cured" in the mean time, and 100 years later theres still some out there. Haha, I wish it worked like that... Oh **** an earthquake practically destroyed California! Quick all blacks to Africa, asians to Asia, Latinos well, just go to Mexico! GOOOO! :rolleyes: Edit: In your rush to express your petty hate of the changes you try to make everything seem unfeasible. Did you consider that they lived in the area and lost loved they want to search for? Or that there are loved ones hurt who can't make the journey? Or maybe they were hurt themselves? That they might try to wait out the worst of the storm near by so they can go back and rebuild their homes? Or that they might have left valuables while on the run? Or that they don't want other people to settle their now vacant lands once the calamity is over? Theres 1000 reasons why someone might stay near their homes and not head out to some mythical homeland they probably never visited... Stop trying to give stupid reasons why you don't like the change, just say you don't like it.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 09:13 AM	I was under the impression that there are Spellplague areas all around, at least there where before it got under control... -The Spellplague bypassed large swaths of land. Oh **** an earthquake practically destroyed California! Quick all blacks to Africa, asians to Asia, Latinos well, just go to Mexico! GOOOO! -The amazing thing is, Elves and Dwarves are not Asian, African or Hispanic. :rolleyes: Edit: In your rush to express your petty hate of the changes you try to make everything seem unfeasible. -While a great deal of the new material is 'unfeasible', amazingly enough, there are a few points that I agree with. So, there goes that assumption. Did you consider that they lived in the area and lost loved they want to search for? -As I said, Elves and Dwarves inhabited the east Faerûn, where the effects of the Spellplague seem to have been minimized. And, since we have already been told that Mythal-clad cities, such as Myth Glauroch, Myth Drannor, and Evereska were saved from the ravages of the Spellplague, there is no reason for Elves to be living in places such as Baldur's Gate. Elves (and Dwarves, but Elves are my specialty) do not like Humans very much. Or that there are loved ones hurt who can't make the journey? Or maybe they were hurt themselves? -So, by that logic, there were so many individuals hurt, or with hurt loved ones to turn Baldur's Gate into a megalopolis with 2 million + residents. Ouch. That they might try to wait out the worst of the storm near by so they can go back and rebuild their homes? -We've been told that the worst of the storm is already over. Or that they might have left valuables while on the run? -Which means...? Or that they don't want other people to settle their now vacant lands once the calamity is over? -Then why leave? The people in New Orleans who held to this principle did not leave. Theres 1000 reasons why someone might stay near their homes and not head out to some mythical homeland they probably never visited... -And, there's 1000 reasons to counter those. Stop trying to give stupid reasons why you don't like the change, just say you don't like it. -That's nice, calling a logical and valid question stupid. The reasons why I do not like many things is precisely because they are not logical, or valid. :rolleyes:
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-22-08, 09:46 AM	Haha you act like the Spellplague started and was over just as quickly for the people of Faerun as it was for me and for you... Yeah its mostly over, 100 YEARS HAVE PASSED, do you have any idea what 100 years is? God bless my great grandma 101... Its also hilarious how you assume people would know where and how intense the Spellplague hit, everybody must have satellite pictures of Toril, with Spellplagued areas marked by stripes! Oh yeah mythal clad cities survived practically unscathed, I'm sure the folks all got the memoir in their emails... :rolleyes: Its not like they all appeared at the same time, the Spellplague went on for years on end with mad wizards and monsters running rampart... People came and waited, maybe for years, they started settling... and imagine that, reproducing, creating a native population! You are clearly unaware of how slums begin... I lived in the Brazilian Northeast, when I was a kid there was severe drought, a BUNCH of people showed up in our town, 15 years later the slums are still there, bigger and stinkier than ever. The slums of Baldur's Gate had a 100 years to grow... Why didn't they go back to where they came from?! I'm going out on a leg here, but I think they were pretty devastated and weak from enduring disaster to make a long journey, they probably had hopes to resettle once it rained a little, but rain came and went and they're still there. Some people die and don't leave their possessions behind, you're saying that the ones that had the sense to leave wouldn't want to stick around to try and recover what they left behind? Its funny how you say there are reasons to counter those... I would like to see you debate with refugees why they're reasons to stay are invalid. By assuming that there are plenty of reasons to stay, you defeated your own argument. There were waves of refugees from New Orleans hitting all neighboring states, guess what they were doing? WAITING, for it to be possible for them to move back. (and their FEMA checks hehe) And guess what, if this wasn't the good ol' U.S. of A. you'd have a bunch of slums *surrounding New Orleans in a few years. *Edit: ...in the states...
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 10:34 AM	Haha you act like the Spellplague started and was over just as quickly for the people of Faerun as it was for me and for you... Yeah its mostly over, 100 YEARS HAVE PASSED, do you have any idea what 100 years is? God bless my great grandma 101... -A century to an Elf is a drop in the bucket. Elves are barely considered adults after the pass of 100 years time. Its also hilarious how you assume people would know where and how intense the Spellplague hit, everybody must have satellite pictures of Toril, with Spellplagued areas marked by stripes! -When magic, like Divination, Sendings, Telepathy, and the like are fairly common, why shouldn't leaders know, and in turn, instruct their people? Oh yeah mythal clad cities survived practically unscathed, I'm sure the folks all got the memoir in their emails... :rolleyes: -Where would you go, if a disaster broke out? A random place, such as Baldur's Gate, or a place that is warded by a Mythal, and traditionally is a home to numerous mages, any of which can protect numerous people? It's like, when a tornado comes, choosing to hide in your room, rather than the storm cellar. Its not like they all appeared at the same time, the Spellplague went on for years on end with mad wizards and monsters running rampart... -See two points above. People came and waited, maybe for years, they started settling... and imagine that, reproducing, creating a native population! You are clearly unaware of how slums begin... I lived in the Brazilian Northeast, when I was a kid there was severe drought, a BUNCH of people showed up in our town, 15 years later the slums are still there, bigger and stinkier than ever. The slums of Baldur's Gate had a 100 years to grow... -Again, these are Elves we are talking about. Not Humans. 100 years is barely a generation. And, even if they did give birth to children, where would they rather raise them? Baldur's Gate, a Human city, or in their own homes, other Elven realms, or Evermeet, the Elven motherland? Why didn't they go back to where they came from?! I'm going out on a leg here, but I think they were pretty devastated and weak from enduring disaster to make a long journey, they probably had hopes to resettle once it rained a little, but rain came and went and they're still there. -So, if their ancestral homes are no longer around, why not simply finish the journey to the Elven paradise that is Evermeet? Some people die and don't leave their possessions behind, you're saying that the ones that had the sense to leave wouldn't want to stick around to try and recover what they left behind? -Not in the slums of a Human city, such as Baldur's Gate, no. In, say, Evereska, or Myth Drannor, both of which I already pointed out, sure. Its funny how you say there are reasons to counter those... I would like to see you debate with refugees why they're reasons to stay are invalid. By assuming that there are plenty of reasons to stay, you defeated your own argument. -Not stay in the slums of Baldur's Gate. Stay in their own homes. If they don't want others to settle there, take your stuff, or whatever, then don't leave. There were waves of refugees from New Orleans hitting all neighboring states, guess what they were doing? WAITING, for it to be possible for them to move back. (and their FEMA checks hehe) And guess what, if this wasn't the good ol' U.S. of A. you'd have a bunch of slums *surrounding New Orleans in a few years. -And, just as many people decided to stay in or around New Orleans, that many other people decided to trek out somewhere else, or move back where they came from. One of my neighbors is actually a NY resident who moved to Louisiana after graduating college, got married there, but moved back here after the Hurricane struck, and the levees broke.
Bluenose 01-22-08, 10:51 AM	-When magic, like Divination, Sendings, Telepathy, and the like are fairly common, why shouldn't leaders know, and in turn, instruct their people? Magic just got a little unreliable. Also, it's my surmise that Baldur's Gate will be a mostly human city, just with lots of different ehtnicities. There could be Shaaran neighbourhoods, Halruaan neighbourhoods, Chessentan, neighbourhoods, people from Sespech and Turmish. If other places were turning away refugees, but you'd heard Baldur's Gate wouldn't, that would be a possible place to go. Personally I think it's a little implausible, but that's more because of the Gate's relative isolation than because I it can't cope. There's a lot of possible farmland along the Chionthar river, and it's far enough south to have a reliable agricultural base. Also, it's geographic position means trade from the Inner Sea can travel down the Chionthar from Iriaebor and use the Gate as the main port for sea travel.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-22-08, 11:06 AM	Oh **** an earthquake practically destroyed California! Quick all blacks to Africa, asians to Asia, Latinos well, just go to Mexico! GOOOO! I'm Puertorican and you wouldn't catch EVER in Mexico, I would hav an urge to go HOME though, It's (demi)human nature to go where you know. I get lost here (NC) and there's some places here that I feel most uncomfreble (Boone, NC). When 911 happened (not the SpellPlague but close enough) all my family living in NY wanted to come back to PR. I feel you where you coming from (beggers can't be chosers) but if it can be helped (the dwarfs will go home (because no one can built a shelter like a dwarf and if i'm not mistaken The High Forest is close enough to BG that the trip wont matter much ) just saying....
Taita_of_Imaskar 01-22-08, 12:16 PM	I'm sure many did go and take the trip to their homelands, not all of them though. You guys wanted to go back home and all, but even with the advent of airplanes, trains and cars you guys stayed in or around NYC right? (at least is what I understood from what you said) You probably knew some people that picked up and left right? Why did your family choose to stay? Yeah after the deity of magic was slain, spells are out of control and archmages are going nuts... magic is your option? (Flights=>9/11, Spells=>Spellplague?) By your (Lord Karsus) reasoning there wouldn't be elves nowhere but Evermeet, 'cause its the best place to live in! amirite?! So why in the world are there elves living in human cities all around? Hell, why even wait for the Spellplague?! Evermeet is paradise to the elves so they all just wanna be there, oh wait that was called the Retreat, and it didn't seem to work too well. rofl Time doesn't go any faster for elves, its just that they have more of it... to a sun elf in the best case is 10% of a lifespan, more like 20-25% for other elves, sorry thats not a drop in the bucket to anyone. And with the mortality rate sky rocketing due to all thats happening, any elf would learn to cherish each and every year, which they probably do regardless... Why you concentrate on elves so much anyways? The article doesn't even mention them when referencing to the happening on BG... Nor does it say slums, it says crowded neighborhoods, patchwork in reference to the many architectural styles maybe? Its been 100 years, and humans, dwarfs and gnomes are usually hardy and working people. Or are you saying dwarves are fruity like elves, and would mind resettling anywhere available? Point is, there are many good reasons for Baldur's Gate to receive refugees, and even if there are myriad reasons it shouldn't, one reason is all it takes to make it happen.
msatran 01-22-08, 12:52 PM	Except that... Wizards is destroying their fanbase by doing this. Although I don't want to say this openly, I'm going to. Right now, in the United States, their primary marketing target, there is a huge amount of hate and divisiveness over the issue of illegal immigrants. This opens that can of worms and throws it in people's faces. That's the real reason I think this is a bad move. It gives Wizards a political position without actually having one or intending to have one, and they may have killed their entire FR audience in every state where people illegally cross over the border. The message that sends is "These refugees from other lands will come, force themselves upon your property and your home, and create giant swaths of slums." Those who support Illegal Aliens as citizens will see it as a call for sympathy for these people, and point to it as a sign of Wizards of the Coast's tolerance and love of diversity. Those who hate Illegal Aliens as citizens and want them all brutally deported will this as a call to arms for those in America who don't want anyone to travel here illegally because it makes it harder for those who emigrate legally, plus, they create giant swaths of slums. Really, this could start fistfights at gaming tables. It wasn't a smart move.
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 01:20 PM	You guys wanted to go back home and all, but even with the advent of airplanes, trains and cars you guys stayed in or around NYC right? (at least is what I understood from what you said) You probably knew some people that picked up and left right? Why did your family choose to stay? -I'm Native American...Nah, but that'd shoot a hole in your argument. -Because I am something like 6th generation American, on both sides of the family, and can't actually name a relative who knew a relative who came from Europe. Yeah after the deity of magic was slain, spells are out of control and archmages are going nuts... magic is your option? (Flights=>9/11, Spells=>Spellplague?) -Where does it say that magic ceased to work in a functional manner? Obviously, as magic will function in the 4e Realms, it works reliably enough. By your (Lord Karsus) reasoning there wouldn't be elves nowhere but Evermeet, 'cause its the best place to live in! amirite?! So why in the world are there elves living in human cities all around? -Very few do, and the Elven Retreat ended. Hell, why even wait for the Spellplague?! Evermeet is paradise to the elves so they all just wanna be there, oh wait that was called the Retreat, and it didn't seem to work too well. rofl -Simply because Evermeet was not as defensible as first believed. Hence why Amlauril tasked Lamruil with creating an even more defensible Elven homeland, in Auseriel. Time doesn't go any faster for elves, its just that they have more of it... to a sun elf in the best case is 10% of a lifespan, more like 20-25% for other elves, sorry thats not a drop in the bucket to anyone. And with the mortality rate sky rocketing due to all thats happening, any elf would learn to cherish each and every year, which they probably do regardless... -As I said, a century is the entire maturation period of an Elf. It's the equivalent of a Human aged 1-18. Eighteen years, after a long, full life, isn't an extremely long period of time, in retrospect. Live to 90, and age 1-18, one-third of that you don't remember anyway, isn't very much. Now, multiply that by ten, and there you go. -A day, a week, a month, even a year, is an extremely short time for an Elf. Why you concentrate on elves so much anyways? -Because they are, as I already said, my specialty. Point is, there are many good reasons for Baldur's Gate to receive refugees, and even if there are myriad reasons it shouldn't, one reason is all it takes to make it happen. -It all traces back to the original problem John expressed: Why is a city run by mercenaries accepting droves of refugees, no matter if said droves are relativley small or relativley large? As an urbanist, "untouchables" such as refugees aren't very good for your city, as they take more than they give. <SNIP> -Now, I think that is stretching it just a little...
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-22-08, 01:25 PM	Except that... <SNIP> I was oing to post a really nice well writen letter about 4E but i lost interest half way, but Mike, my friend you know why you are so unhappy wit 4E? Because is not made for us not for me not for you nor it is for LK or for Mr. M or Phillips, is for a new "generation" of players, like IIRC Phillips said, this is the "ultimates" of D&D. now if we happen to like it all the better for WOtC. if we don't, all well... That's it. I'm sure Dwarf don't have an ocean to cross to get to their home and the goverment stoped all traffic (obviously justified btw)...
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 01:41 PM	Because is not made for us not for me not for you nor it is for LK or for Mr. M or Phillips, is for a new "generation" of players, like IIRC Phillips said, this is the "ultimates" of D&D. now if we happen to like it all the better for WOtC. if we don't, all well... -Eh, certain elements might be better, and if there wasn't such a 'discrepancy' betweeen the old and new, I'd obviously like it (4e and 4e Forgotten Realms) a lot more.
Jarred_Garrison 01-22-08, 01:43 PM	Except that... Wizards is destroying their fanbase by doing this. Although I don't want to say this openly, I'm going to. Right now, in the United States, their primary marketing target, there is a huge amount of hate and divisiveness over the issue of illegal immigrants. This opens that can of worms and throws it in people's faces. That's the real reason I think this is a bad move. It gives Wizards a political position without actually having one or intending to have one, and they may have killed their entire FR audience in every state where people illegally cross over the border. The message that sends is "These refugees from other lands will come, force themselves upon your property and your home, and create giant swaths of slums." Those who support Illegal Aliens as citizens will see it as a call for sympathy for these people, and point to it as a sign of Wizards of the Coast's tolerance and love of diversity. Those who hate Illegal Aliens as citizens and want them all brutally deported will this as a call to arms for those in America who don't want anyone to travel here illegally because it makes it harder for those who emigrate legally, plus, they create giant swaths of slums. Really, this could start fistfights at gaming tables. It wasn't a smart move. Honestly, MSatran... I think you´re reading too much into it. I have to wonder if you´re really joking about it, or you truly think that way, but in any case... I very much doubt people will read so much between the lines (and I do believe that there´s such a thing as reading too much between the lines). While I do agree with you that Wizards are alienating part of the fanbase with the changes (me included), I can´t agree with the reading of BG being a metaphore for immigration issues in the US.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 01:51 PM	Regarding Evermeet: There may not be an Evermeet to go back to. Do we know for sure at this point?
18DELTA 01-22-08, 02:01 PM	Regarding Evermeet: There may not be an Evermeet to go back to. Do we know for sure at this point? -Didn't one of the Articles in A Grand History of the Realms say that Evermeet was a big concentration of the Weave? Is so I wonder how the 'Spellplague' affected the Island?:eek: LORD DELTA:confused:
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 02:02 PM	Regarding Evermeet: There may not be an Evermeet to go back to. Do we know for sure at this point? -I am fairly sure that Richard Baker has stated somewhere along the point that is still exists, but he can not/does not want to talk about it. That, in my opinion, isn't good.
msatran 01-22-08, 02:54 PM	I was oing to post a really nice well writen letter about 4E but i lost interest half way, but Mike, my friend you know why you are so unhappy wit 4E? Because is not made for us not for me not for you nor it is for LK or for Mr. M or Phillips, is for a new "generation" of players, like IIRC Phillips said, this is the "ultimates" of D&D. now if we happen to like it all the better for WOtC. if we don't, all well... That's it. I'm sure Dwarf don't have an ocean to cross to get to their home and the goverment stoped all traffic (obviously justified btw)... Here's the deal. Half of my group are extremely liberal democrats. The other half are very conservative republicans. There's one or two people in the middle. The rule at the table is we can talk about in-game politics all we want. The DM can run any story he wants. But never, ever, without collective agreement (Which does happen) do we talk about real world politics at the gaming table. So before you gainsay my opinion, Ody, there's a reason I'm worried. It's because I've seen arguments over real world politics get pretty heated, and quite frankly, I don't think that people need those sorts of social triggers openly included in their D+D games.
MarkusTay63 01-22-08, 03:01 PM	It becomes known as the Evermeet Maelstrom, where ships get sucked into... THE FEYWILD!!! :eek: ♪ Dun Dun DAHHHHH!!! ♫
18DELTA 01-22-08, 03:11 PM	It becomes known as the Evermeet Maelstrom, where ships get sucked into... THE FEYWILD!!! :eek: ♪ Dun Dun DAHHHHH!!! ♫ -Right.:rolleyes: Didnt WOW do something just like that?:rolleyes: DELTA:P
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-22-08, 03:21 PM	Hey I hear ya' If you know ANYthing about Puertoricans politics, is that it is our no.1 sport. I wasn't attacking you or nothing, but as a really smart man that I know you are you have to understand that if every person will stop doing what they are doing because affects some one else nobody woulddo nothing. Make sense?
MarkusTay63 01-22-08, 03:25 PM	Its also against the forum rules, I believe, and its there for a reason. Its definately one of the 'Taboo' topics in polite company. ;) So why not a Maelstrom a'la WoW? It's not like they have taken anything else from there, like Elves, or Druids, ... or an... Orc Kingdom... Nevermind......... :allalone:
msatran 01-22-08, 03:29 PM	Well, the truth of the matter is that if people all agreed, they wouldn't be people. But the truth is that when most people do something, it's bad. Nine out of ten things that happen are just genuinely bad. George Lucas even managed to ruin Star Wars with Jar Jar Binks, for god's sake. People have lost the ability to write and tell stories well. And things like 4e FR are the result. The game could be fantastic, and sink or swim on it's own mechanics, and it probably will. But the Dragonborn can go sink into a !@#$$!ing hole in the ground and be swallowed by the earth, and the new tiefling, and the warlock? These are not core D+D concepts. And saying "Ha Ha, they are now" is not going to win them followers. Where's my druid? Where's my monk? Where's my barbarian? And yet WARLOCK made it in? If I want to play an energy projector, I'll play Champions, or I'll play a wizard. This is a waste of space. As for Warlord, I've already said this a hundred times, and others have too. There should not be a leader class. Ever. Rewarding stupid people because they can't make tactical decisions by giving them powers and abilities on their sheet to make up for it is dumb. A leader emerges through roleplaying and character development, not because of the character class they take at level one.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-22-08, 03:41 PM	I agree 100% with you on all that but like I said 4E is not for smart people is for people with money (I'm not saying that if you like 4E you are dumb btw) Is a "cool", "action packed" game for "action junkies". Its made to be liked by the popular mass instead of people than loves RPGs. (much like N'sync and Music:D)
18DELTA 01-22-08, 04:06 PM	I agree 100% with you on all that but like I said 4E is not for smart people is for people with money (I'm not saying that if you like 4E you are dumb btw) Is a "cool", "action packed" game for "action junkies". Its made to be liked by the popular mass instead of people than loves RPGs. (much like N'sync and Music:D) -:uh-huh: :OMG! :twitch: :blink: :shifty: :doh: :looloo: :mymy: :rant: :tantrum: :banghead: :hoppingma -Did you just compare the 4E Realms to a Boy Band. Kinda like "Cartman's" Boy Band "Finger Bang"?:P LORD DELTA LMAO!!!
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-22-08, 04:25 PM	Yes, and not just ANY Boy Band, but the bottom line syntetic Boy Band EVER (New Kids on The Block is a close second)
18DELTA 01-22-08, 04:29 PM	Yes, and not just ANY Boy Band, but the bottom line syntetic Boy Band EVER (New Kids on The Block is a close second) -:OMG! You are serious.:eek: :uh-huh: :nonono: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :rant: :raincloud DELTA:surrender
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 04:53 PM	It becomes known as the Evermeet Maelstrom, where ships get sucked into... THE FEYWILD!!! :eek: ♪ Dun Dun DAHHHHH!!! ♫ -That's when I punch someone and/or something. :ahem:
ORC_Tuhteth 01-22-08, 05:09 PM	First, some posts have been deleted because they are off-topic for the thread or because they come across as baiting (i.e. a personal attack on other patrons). Second, please don't re-post the same thing twice -- if a post is missing, it was probably removed intentionally by a moderator. :) Third, the last few dozen posts have been dragged increasingly off-topic by the use of real-world analogies. Once you start into real-world stuff, the topic will quickly mutate and focus on immigration or humanitarian concerns over refugees in the real world (as opposed to being a part of the discussion about the Forgotten Realms). Please try to avoid this in the future; in any case, an "in-world" analogy (i.e. one drawn specifically from within the Realms) is always going to be more immediately applicable because it applies on both sides of the analogy, not just one! :D (To clarify: Real-world analogies and such aren't automatically off-topic, but it's important to keep the discussion closely linked to the actual topic at hand; as such, you're usually better off avoiding the real-world stuff if you can think of any in-world alternative, but it's not a problem if used in passing and in moderation.) Thanks in advance for your cooperation. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 05:45 PM	Nine out of ten things that happen are just genuinely bad. Like THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imlyVV0yYKo). Although this is one of those cases were it's so bad...it's good! :rofl:
Lord Karsus 01-22-08, 06:05 PM	Like THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imlyVV0yYKo). Although this is one of those cases were it's so bad...it's good! :rofl: -Meh, I still don't see the 'it's so bad it's good', but I'll just take your word for it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-22-08, 06:09 PM	-Meh, I still don't see the 'it's so bad it's good', but I'll just take your word for it. It makes me LAUGH! The way Ganon's face gets "squished" is pretty hilarious. :heehee
XHereticX 01-22-08, 07:30 PM	-:uh-huh: :OMG! :twitch: :blink: :shifty: :doh: :looloo: :mymy: :rant: :tantrum: :banghead: :hoppingma -Did you just compare the 4E Realms to a Boy Band. Kinda like "Cartman's" Boy Band "Finger Bang"?:P LORD DELTA LMAO!!! "Finger bang bang, finger bang!!!";) After reading Worlds and Monsters, I think they made it pretty clear that they are trying to uncomplicate things and make every object in the world be something that players can kill and "lewt" from.
Mr_Miscellany 01-22-08, 10:01 PM	It's because I've seen arguments over real world politics get pretty heated, and quite frankly, I don't think that people need those sorts of social triggers openly included in their D+D games. :looloo: I've figured it out. These boards aren't for discussion. They're for entertainment. Uhm....there are quasi-racist slurs thrown around at my gaming table (between the players) that constitute a kind of chummy, merciless ribbing that helps get the game going. But there is zero in 3E or 4E (from I've seen so far) that would actually encourage that sort of thing. :::::::::::: -In a world gone to :censored:, why are Dwarves and/or Elves mingling with races they have a traditional disdain for? Think about it. Elves, Dwarves and humans have worked together in the past (Myth Drannor, Waterdeep, the Silver Marches, etc...) and elves/dwarves are already **not** absent from many human settlements in mainland Faerûn. Chaotic, magical outbreaks that happen at random and with little or no warning. None of these races are 100% bent on letting disdain turn to stupidity. If magic goes wild and shows no signs of righting itself, well then there's safety in numbers. Why are the Elves fleeing to Baldur's Gate, and not Evermeet, Evereska, or some of the deeper forests where Wood Elves rule? Who says they're not? But also, who is to say it's possible to do this safely and without calamity? You're basically trying to turn this into an "either, or" argument, when that's precisely not what this is. You (we) don't have enough facts to make that kind of argument yet. So far I like the 4E Realms, but I'm not going to make the mistake of crediting oversimplified arguments for or against it as valid at this point.
18DELTA 01-22-08, 11:53 PM	:looloo: I've figured it out. These boards aren't for discussion. They're for entertainment. -:rofl:!!!:D DELTA;)
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 01:19 AM	No, these boards are a place for Delta to post his vast army of smileys. :rolleyes: I warned you guys yous was gonna git in trouble. :P On Topic: If Armageddon came knocking on YOUR door, your going to run to the closest, most well protected place in order to save yourself and your family. Read the last paragraph of the GHotR AGAIN, and tell me if your going to try and travel to some island a thousand miles away, or anywhere else very far for that matter. Man - and by a further stretch of the definition, humanoids - are HERD animals by nature - they will form into groups, regardless of race, creed, or color, for mutual protection. No one is going to stand alone against the end-of-the-world, and no-ones going to travel half-way across the globe to feel safe. In another setting, a very similar thing happened, but instead of a Spellglague, the world got hit with a plague of Demons. Its very easy to forget past animosities when something FAR worse shows up - this excerpt was taking from that setting, and bear in mind all of the 'people' in this short tale have come from races that all just warred against each other VERY recently. The Tale of Woe (http://markustay.deviantart.com/art/WoW-RPG-Excerpt-75365419) Its very short (little more then a page), so it should be an easy read - I didn't feel like retyping the whole thing, so I hope you don't mind the 'scan'. ;) When I think of the 1385 DR, I think of that scene right there.
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 01:31 AM	Man - and by a further stretch of the definition, humanoids - are HERD animals by nature - they will form into groups, regardless of race, creed, or color, for mutual protection. Agreed. In that sort of situation, people of all stripes would go running for the safest place they could quickly reach. They certainly wouldn't bypass a nearby area which they know to be safe in favor of a place which is much farther, risking their lives on what's bound to be a dangerous journey. Especially when they have no idea what condition the end destination is in. For all they know, the Spellplague could've obliterated Evermeet, Evereska, etc. So why take the chance when it's uncertain if the destination is even safe, when there's a relatively safe place to hole up in close at hand?
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 01:42 AM	Another Example: Think of the movie Independence Day (I love Will Smith) - everyone banded together and formed a convoy, and headed to the one place they thought they might be safe - in FR, that would be all the people fleeing the Spellplague toward BG. Now, think about the END of the movie - you know, where people of every nation and religion joined together to fight a common enemy... remember the Arab and Israeli jets parked on the SAME airfield? Well, think of them as Orcs and Elves. ;)
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 01:59 AM	Well, think of them as Orcs and Elves. ;) I just pictured orcs and elves flying jets...
Charles Phipps 01-23-08, 02:00 AM	But yes, honestly, I think it's weird how anyone would think that a racially diverse city is something new in the Forgotten Realms. Since when?
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 02:08 AM	Truthfully, its just Waterdeep: Redux. The only reason why they did that was for the Computer Games, because the PnP crowd will still have waterdeep to play in. The BG decision had absolutely nothing to do with us, and wasn't for us.
Mr_Miscellany 01-23-08, 02:10 AM	The only reason why they did that was for the Computer Games, because the PnP crowd will still have waterdeep to play in. The BG decision had absolutely nothing to do with us, and wasn't for us.Kk...I'll bite. Cite your source.
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 02:44 AM	Don't need a source - I know how those things work. BG was never a big part of the PnP FR, but it was VERY important to Bioware. WoTC simply accomodated them by giving them more room to have adventures in. Else, what would be the point of creating a second Waterdeep? It would be redundant, unless it served some other purpose.
Dzwood 01-23-08, 03:10 AM	Don't need a source - I know how those things work. BG was never a big part of the PnP FR, but it was VERY important to Bioware. WoTC simply accomodated them by giving them more room to have adventures in. Else, what would be the point of creating a second Waterdeep? It would be redundant, unless it served some other purpose. Ill agree that it was probably what you say. Or the fact the urban adventuring seems to be getting more popular with some crowds. Might be a second "Big City" BG could have been beefed up to make other cities feel smaller and quainter and more primatve by our standards. Heck It was probaly a combo of both ideas. Ohhh and i dont see a prblem with every race livign in one city. Weird but probable given the state of things
Mr_Miscellany 01-23-08, 03:11 AM	I know how those things work. Sure you do. :P Else, what would be the point of creating a second Waterdeep? It would be redundant, unless it served some other purpose. But that's just it: how is it even a "second Waterdeep", as you call it? A big population doesn't automatically turn any large city into just another Waterdeep, full of wards and mad mages below, does it? Is Bezantur "...just another Waterdeep" simply because of its large population? Of course not! ;) Have you considered that "other purpose" might in fact be to put the spotlight on a Sword Coast city other than Waterdeep for 4E? Seemingly depressing news, but at least it pays head to the oft-spoken and repetitive complaints about how any and all Waterdeep books in late 2E and 3E were just rip-offs of previous work with supposedly nothing new to them. Thanks to the complaints we now have a whole new city to work with.
sillaric_culdanin 01-23-08, 03:47 AM	In truth I saw BG's growth as a way to centralize the remaining population, leaving much of the Western Heartlands and Lands of Intrigue as the Sea of Darkness, so to speak. Lots of other areas as well. As to Markus' claims regarding Bioware and BG... your information's a bit out of date. Only the very first Bioware FR-based game even featured BG.. the second (and the more popular in sales numbers) was set in Amn. Bioware then moved up to Neverwinter for their next CRPG (NWN, and at this point we have no idea if Neverwinter survives the Spellplague... especially since we know from Orc King that Luskan does not). They then sold the property to Obsidian (made up of Black Isle guys IIRC, the group that made the Icewind Dale games... speaking of which anyone want to place bets on whether the area Bob really brought to light survives? ;)) for the sequel which is also set in and around Neverwinter (although it extends as far south as the Mere of Dead Men just north of Waterdeep). All that said its a bit thin to claim that they beefed up BG to please Bioware who is deeply entrenched in continuing the development of their incredible (thus far) original sci-fi series for Xbox 360 and hasn't said anywhere I can find that they even plan on developing for FR/WotC/Hasbro in the future. EDIT: Nevermind... there is at least some speculation that EA purchased Bioware to development an MMO based on a fantasy IP that EA paid 860M for... and FR has been suggested as one of the few fantasy IPs that could be worth that much (and doesn't already have an MMO like Warcraft and LotR). Who knows?
Jarred_Garrison 01-23-08, 09:48 AM	Well, the rumour in the videogaming community says that a company (not Bioware) has already been contracted to produce Baldur´s Gate III. Take that for what you wish. (I´d give links to the info if I could be bothered to look for it, but you guys can use google as well as I can).
BadCatMan 01-23-08, 10:22 AM	In the lore, Baldur's Gate was always a large and rapidly growing city, one that was tolerant and multicultural. Moon elves, half-moon-elves, half-wild-elves, rock gnomes and "hairfoot" halflings have been there since Demihumans Of The Realms, and the city even gained a small Maztican community in Races Of Faerun. And it was already a city with an extensive poor quarter, replete with hovels (Player's Guide To Faerun, 2e). It's also well-defended by the surprisingly large Flaming Fist mercenary company, who tend to operate as the city's personal defense force anyway. And the city is capable of sending off exploration expeditions to places as distant as Sossal, and colonies to Chult and Anchorome. Perhaps they can export their tired, their poor and their huddled masses to the colonies if need be, and bring back some food to feed the rest.
18DELTA 01-23-08, 10:33 AM	No, these boards are a place for Delta to post his vast army of smileys. :rolleyes: I warned you guys yous was gonna git in trouble. :P -:monk: :fett: :mage: :fight!: :88E: :coolcthul :dragon: :behold: :emp: :behold: :dragon: :coolcthul :88E: :fight!: :mage: :fett: :monk: DELTA
Bluenose 01-23-08, 10:39 AM	Well, the rumour in the videogaming community says that a company (not Bioware) has already been contracted to produce Baldur´s Gate III. Take that for what you wish. (I´d give links to the info if I could be bothered to look for it, but you guys can use google as well as I can). Baldur's Gate III is a personal project that one of the original series developers is talking about doing. It will use NWN2 as it's basis. As for Bioware, it's possible that Bioware Austin's unnamed MMO is for FR, but there have been several other suggestions including a new Star Wars MMO, Star Trek, Harry Potter, and others. Their original studio is working on Dragon Age, just finished Mass Effect and may be converting it for PC, and there's also mention of Jade Empire 2. They have said in interviews that they would rather work on their own original concepts that on an existing rules, so it seems unlikely they are interested in another FR game at the moment.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 11:33 AM	Think about it. Hmmm. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/84/FacesGanon.JPG):thinks:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 11:37 AM	Man - and by a further stretch of the definition, humanoids - are HERD animals by nature - they will form into groups, regardless of race, creed, or color, for mutual protection. Social animals, not herd animals.;) Not sure I agree with that last part unequivocally, but that's not the point of this topic.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 11:43 AM	Don't need a source - I know how those things work. BG was never a big part of the PnP FR, but it was VERY important to Bioware. WoTC simply accomodated them by giving them more room to have adventures in. Markus, I have to admit, I don't quite understand what the BG development has to do with setting computer games there. I should mention that even in the BG series, the city was only actually used in the first game (and a little bit in the expansion), and even then, only about half of THAT game took place in the actual city.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 11:46 AM	Well, the rumour in the videogaming community says that a company (not Bioware) has already been contracted to produce Baldur´s Gate III. Take that for what you wish. (I´d give links to the info if I could be bothered to look for it, but you guys can use google as well as I can). Was that the article from a few years ago? As far as I know, BG3 is still "vaporware".
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 12:36 PM	You know what? That was just speculation on my part, but I think it bears merit because - 1) As Rinonalyrna points out, only the first half of the first BG game took place there. Now, that was a very successful game, and I'm sure the designers would like to 're-visit it'. What better way to make a Baldur's gate game be ALL ABOUT BG? With its new size, you can create an environment large enough to provide hundreds of hours of game play. Not only that, but because of it's new, more diverse population, you can travel to the Halfling sewers, the Gnome Warrens, the Elven ghetto... all without living the city itself. The city would become a self-contained gaming environment. 2) Do you have any idea how difficult it is to detail an entire city? FR alread has Waterdeep and Calimport to accomodate any sort of situation you wish to simulate. traditionally, every setting has its one, big uber-city, and Waterdeep already has that spot - creating a second one is redundant, and therefore not a very intelligent decision from a design standpoint. So which is it, are they stupid, or just greedy? :smirk: WotC has been leaving BG alone, and so did TSR after the games started coming out. Theres no reason now for them to develop any interest in it, unless it is part of a licensing agreement with some software firm. You know, I had been hoping for an FR MORPG for years now, and was upset when Eberron got one before us. Now I'm glad we didn't, and am hoping that is not what they are planning - I heard Stormreach was abysmal (and not the outerplane - that would have been interesting). :(
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 12:59 PM	You know, I had been hoping for an FR MORPG for years now, and was upset when Eberron got one before us. Now I'm glad we didn't, and am hoping that is not what they are planning - I heard Stormreach was abysmal (and not the outerplane - that would have been interesting). :( -A Forgotten Realms MMORPG would not be cool. You know how many CG Drow wielding dual scimitars would be running around? Now, you know what would be a cool MMORPG? -Planescape. Think about it. Sigil, the City of Brass, etc. could be the safe "neutral" base zone (don't know the proper terminology), and all of the various planes are the various stages (again, don't know the proper terminology). And, of course, the Factions of Sigil allow for Clans and all that stuff.
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 01:05 PM	Sigil would make an INSANE place to adventure! That is probably the bestest idea you've ever had!!! :dancin: Its the perfect set-up - the basic game starts out with Sigil and the Outlands, and then each of the outer planes could be released in an expansion pack! They could get away with more expansions then The Sims! And, of course, there would be side quests - to FR, GH, EB, DL, and even RL. That would be so sick! I want it I want it I want it I want it I want it I want it I want it... :tantrum:
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 01:08 PM	Sigil would make an INSANE place to adventure! That is probably the bestest idea you've ever had!!! :dancin: -I'm full of 'em. I don't necessarily agree that this was my best idea ever, but... Its the perfect set-up - the basic game starts out with Sigil and the Outlands, and then each of the outer planes could be released in an expansion pack! They could get away with more expansions then The Sims! And, of course, there would be side quests - to FR, GH, EB, DL, and even RL. -Mmmhmm...
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 01:10 PM	Now I have to go back to college and learn to program... again (dang-blasted high-faluting 3D environments!)... and create this game, just so I can play.... see you in about 70 years. :P
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 01:18 PM	-A Forgotten Realms MMORPG would not be cool. You know how many CG Drow wielding dual scimitars would be running around? To be fair, this would be true for ANY MMO. Whether it's set in Eberron, Forgotten Realms, or even Planescape. If the Drow are available as a PC race, then you're bound to have dual-scimitar wielding Drow running around. Hell, you've even got them running around in City of Heroes! Short of making a rule that states you can't make a Drizzt clone on pain of having your character deleted, you'll always be stuck with them, no matter the setting. But yeah, Planescape would make for a bad-ass MMO. Although in all honesty, I'd still prefer the Realms (So long as they had RP servers where you weren't allowed to make characters with idiotic names like Cowbell or Buttmunkey, and where you most definitely weren't allowed to make clones of Realms NPC's, like Drizzt, Elminster, Storm Silverhand, and so on).
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 01:19 PM	Now I have to go back to college and learn to program... again (dang-blasted high-faluting 3D environments!)... and create this game, just so I can play.... see you in about 70 years. :P -If I'm alive, I'll be waiting. I'll probably be dead, though. Odds are, I'm not going to live very much past 60 anyway, so...:embarrass
Lord Karsus 01-23-08, 01:20 PM	(So long as they had RP servers where you weren't allowed to make characters with idiotic names like Cowbell or Buttmunkey...) -Very important: Don't forget to pass that memo along to Mr. Savlatore. :D
Jarred_Garrison 01-23-08, 01:27 PM	Was that the article from a few years ago? As far as I know, BG3 is still "vaporware". *Sighs* After some googling... It appears on this month´s PC Gamer UK (perhaps in the previous month, didn´t manage to pinpoint the exact issue). Here´s the quote: "I'll probably get into trouble for telling you this, but hey, I just can't resist. Baldur's [sic] Gate III is in the works. I can't really say much more, but a few details to guide your speculation: it's not being done by BioWare, and you won't be playing it for at least two years. You shouldn't expect anything classically isometric either, as it's being made by a company that believes in pushing technology forward." The guy writing this is supposed to be nicknamed Achilleas. As I said in my earlier post, take that as you will (I personally take it with a lot of skepticism, but what do I know?).
Skagul 01-23-08, 01:28 PM	I don't need to worry about my game - its not doing anything I don't want it to. I'm just upset about the brand - I hope it can be saved somehow. :( I hear you brother. :clap:
MarkusTay63 01-23-08, 02:55 PM	Thank You. :bravo: The guy writing this is supposed to be nicknamed Achilleas. As I said in my earlier post, take that as you will (I personally take it with a lot of skepticism, but what do I know?).If thats true, and not some 'pretend info', then my assumptions about the new BG being part of the Video Game incentive (VGi?) are correct. I'd also like to point to Blizzard as the logical choice of developers, since they've worked with D&D before (TSR). Normally Blizzard only likes to develop their own Intellectual Properties, but with WoW's fanbase starting to slide, hooking up their game-engines to FR might be an excellent match-up (from a business perspective). Also, Blizzard has let 'slip' that they've been working on a new game for two years, that should be ready sometime by the end of 2009 - Most folks assume its Diablo III, but the time-table does fit with that little piece of info above.
Jarred_Garrison 01-23-08, 03:51 PM	Thank You. :bravo: If thats true, and not some 'pretend info', then my assumptions about the new BG being part of the Video Game incentive (VGi?) are correct. I'd also like to point to Blizzard as the logical choice of developers, since they've worked with D&D before (TSR). Normally Blizzard only likes to develop their own Intellectual Properties, but with WoW's fanbase starting to slide, hooking up their game-engines to FR might be an excellent match-up (from a business perspective). Also, Blizzard has let 'slip' that they've been working on a new game for two years, that should be ready sometime by the end of 2009 - Most folks assume its Diablo III, but the time-table does fit with that little piece of info above. You´re welcome :) Dunno if Blizzard would be up to the task, more so considering that their hands have quite a lot on their plate right now, with WoW and its expansions, Starcraft 2, etc. They don´t really strike me as the one I´d go for, anyway. At any rate, until we have more solid info, it´s really pointless to speculate, plus a thread hijack, so let´s get back on track :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-23-08, 06:53 PM	*Sighs* After some googling... It appears on this month´s PC Gamer UK (perhaps in the previous month, didn´t manage to pinpoint the exact issue). Here´s the quote: The guy writing this is supposed to be nicknamed Achilleas. As I said in my earlier post, take that as you will (I personally take it with a lot of skepticism, but what do I know?). OK thanks, I appreciate the information.:) Although I still wonder if the game has a publisher yet.
Jarred_Garrison 01-23-08, 07:34 PM	OK thanks, I appreciate the information.:) Although I still wonder if the game has a publisher yet. If it does turn out to be true, it´s not like it´s a big deal. Any publisher will jump at the opportunity to distribute BGIII, simply because it´s a guaranteed blockbuster (no matter how big a disappointment it might be if it doesn´t live up to the expectations).
msatran 01-24-08, 12:40 AM	Well, yeah. Not to mention my favorite timejump nightmare, and the reason why I will not play 4th edition Forgotten Realms ever if at all possible. Caisin Cu Calas. Surely, you cannot expect me to believe that bringing an analog of the guys in the white sheets and the hoods with a similarly named acronym is anything other than a blatant political statement. While I loathe the KKK, it is important that people understand that the KKK are bad, not that a thinly veiled reference to them in D+D is necessary to make people aware of the people in sheets and hoods.
Lord Karsus 01-24-08, 12:40 AM	-Hey, remember when we were joking around about WotC merging M:tG and D&D, with the terrains and everything. Get a load of this: http://ww2.wizards.com/global/images/Magic_Gatherer_CardDetails_picMain_en.jp g :P
MarkusTay63 01-24-08, 01:24 AM	Have you ever seen the Viashino from MtG? http://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/UrzasLegacy/Viashino_Heretic.jpg http://www.mtgfanatic.com//images/Magic/UrzasLegacy/Viashino_Bey.jpg Supposedly, they are a race of creatures descended from Dragons... :rolleyes:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-24-08, 10:02 AM	That's "cool" and "awesome"!
Mr_Miscellany 01-24-08, 11:26 PM	Yeah. Wizards just lost a customer for half their product line. Do NOT buy this garbage. Do NOT. Perhaps the Realms can still be saved by those who really love it.When I'm spending time enjoying myself in a comfy chair, reading about the Realms of the future, I'm going to send the extra warm fuzzies to you by thought-mail. Don't pull a return to sender, though, or you might not find any Realms-happiness for quite some time to come! :P
Charles Phipps 01-24-08, 11:46 PM	Surely, you cannot expect me to believe that bringing an analog of the guys in the white sheets and the hoods with a similarly named acronym is anything other than a blatant political statement. Speaking as a man from an area where the Ku Klux Klan is far from a memory, I think Bob Salvatore was trying to be clever. Really, if you have a bunch of Hobgoblins in military attire out to cleanse the world then there's no reason to complain about the KKK. We've already got an Elvish version. While I loathe the KKK, it is important that people understand that the KKK are bad, not that a thinly veiled reference to them in D+D is necessary to make people aware of the people in sheets and hoods. I'm reminded of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Dream A wonderful exercise in staring at oneself in Fantasy.
Dark Wizard 01-25-08, 01:36 AM	However the entire work of The Iron Dream was devoted to highlighting its thought provoking approach to this issue. It also had a framing story to further emphasis the author's actual view on the issue and to get the point as clear as he could. The CCC in the Orc King aren't elaborated on enough to make it an effective example of a fantasy work trying to be relevant. At best they come off as a boring ripoff of the real world, in a way almost lazy on the author's part, certainly not clever, no offense. I think I could stand them if the name was changed to something less obvious. I don't need an author hammering an idea into my head in such an obvious way, especially if he's not doing it for satire. I'd just as soon prefer if my Realms readings remained free of such attempts, I typically go else where for socially relevant reading.
MarkusTay63 01-25-08, 02:26 AM	The name reminds me of all the times back when I had my own construction business, and asked my day-laborers if they wanted to stop at the topless bar for a beer on the way home - my treat. "Sie, Sie, SIE!!!" ;) :P
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 02:55 AM	Honestly, I wish no one had bothered pointing out the bunch of people in Executioner's Masks and the ridiculously complex name was actually the CCC. I didn't get it until that point save in the vaguest sense.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 08:12 AM	Surely, you cannot expect me to believe that bringing an analog of the guys in the white sheets and the hoods with a similarly named acronym is anything other than a blatant political statement. -Salvatore likes to do that, it seems. This, the indulgences and corrupt priest in Memnon in Road of the Patriarch...I don't mind social commentary, but can't you do it somewhere else? I say the same thing for the authors in the more recent Star Wars novels, which also drip with parallel symbolism. Corellian terrorists, the formation of the GAG... Honestly, I wish no one had bothered pointing out the bunch of people in Executioner's Masks and the ridiculously complex name was actually the CCC. I didn't get it until that point save in the vaguest sense. -You know, same here. It just dawned on me now.
MarkusTay63 01-25-08, 11:43 AM	Unfortunately, RAS is NO Terry Goodkind. :bored: His 'poor man's version' of political commentary has NO place in the Realms - if he wants to do it, he should write a series in his own damn setting.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 11:59 AM	His 'poor man's version' of political commentary has NO place in the Realms - if he wants to do it, he should write a series in his own damn setting. -Agreed. Not that our opinions ultimatley matter, of course, but.
MarkusTay63 01-25-08, 12:07 PM	True - as long as he remains a best-seller, we will getting handed whatever 'dung' he excreates on the Realms.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 01:56 PM	When I'm spending time enjoying myself in a comfy chair, reading about the Realms of the future, I'm going to send the extra warm fuzzies to you by thought-mail. You want it? It's yours my friend! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2yRdRG38ks&feature=related)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 02:01 PM	The CCC in the Orc King aren't elaborated on enough to make it an effective example of a fantasy work trying to be relevant. At best they come off as a boring ripoff of the real world, in a way almost lazy on the author's part, certainly not clever, no offense. Definitely not clever, in my opinion. The CCC uses black hoods and costumes instead of white ones--WOW!:rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 02:04 PM	His 'poor man's version' of political commentary has NO place in the Realms - if he wants to do it, he should write a series in his own damn setting. He already does that, in fact. Haven't read his non-FR novels, but apparently he deals with corrupt churches in the "Demon Wars" world of Corona. Which is why I don't see why he needed to use the Church of Selune to make a similar point. It's like fitting a square peg into a round hole.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 02:09 PM	The CCC is political commentary? Is using stock villain Nazis, political commentary? I just assumed he was using a familiar trope. Is J.K.K. Rowling's Death Eaters political commentary when they're walking around in green KKK robes blasting normal humans? Edit: I wonder when the next Countdown Piece is.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 02:44 PM	The CCC is political commentary? -In this case, yes. Orcs have gone from animals (traditional view) to, well... I wonder when the next Countdown Piece is. -The other one just came out only a week or so ago. Give 'em a chance. As DRAGON/DUNGEON are supposed to be monthly things, I'd expect no later than next month for something new. Chris Perkins has stated that a lot would be revealed in Jan 2008 in his interview, so I expect more to be expanded upon at some point this month.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 02:50 PM	-In this case, yes. Orcs have gone from animals (traditional view) to, well... To be fair, Orcs have never been Daleks or Vampires. I prefer to treat them as vermin and self-replicating Evil of the Highest Sort in other campaigns, but they've always just been crude and nasty humans just as elves were cultural and pretty ones. It was poorly written and almost unrecognizable as Orcs but I had a standing rule at my house "There's as many good orcs in the Realms as there are Evil Elves."
XHereticX 01-25-08, 09:04 PM	Unfortunately, RAS is NO Terry Goodkind. :bored: His 'poor man's version' of political commentary has NO place in the Realms - if he wants to do it, he should write a series in his own damn setting. George RR Martin ***** on both of them though:D . Apparent RAS was just taking a poor shot at the catholic church, most ironically, by using a Muslim based people. D&D copied the Nazis already, with the god Zarus and his cult in core.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 09:21 PM	Apparent RAS was just taking a poor shot at the catholic church... That was the impression I got. Selune's Church has mostly female priests, yet all the priests in the novel were male. There was no mention of the moon, or Selune's dogma--just vague assertions of "salvation" and the ease of suffering. The priests sell "indulgences" and coerce poor, desperate women into having sex with them so they can "relieve their earthly desires" and focus their minds on spiritual matters. Yeah, that sounds like a religion of the Forgotten Realms, all right.:rolleyes:
XHereticX 01-25-08, 09:24 PM	That was the impression I got. Selune's Church has mostly female priests, yet all the priests in the novel were male. There was no mention of the moon, or Selune's dogma--just vague assertions of "salvation" and the ease of suffering. The priests sell "indulgences" and coerce poor, desperate women into having sex with them so they can "relieve their earthly desires" and focus their minds on spiritual matters. Yeah, that sounds like a religion of the Forgotten Realms, all right.:rolleyes: Well, it IS Calimshan, land of Harems, slaves, assasins. Personally I think RAS is running out of ideas in that inspiration-drained mind of his and is now trying to look like some sort of social reformer:rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 09:25 PM	I confess, I actually had this train of thought.... 1. Why would the Church of Selune be concerned with Salvation? Isn't that Kelemvor's thing? 2. Selune is a goddess of Earthly pleasures. Shouldn't this be an Ilmater or Kelemvor thing? 3. Since when does Selune preach to the poor huddled masses, again wouldn't this make more sense with Ilmater? 4. I get they're heretics and all but the Church of Cyric would love these guys and if this was any author other than Bob Salvatore, we'd see the Altar of the Black Sun behind all this.
XHereticX 01-25-08, 09:27 PM	Nah, this looks more like the work of Loviatar but I understand your point.
msatran 01-25-08, 09:34 PM	Yeah, 4E just lost more points from me. The Pit Fiend can... Blow up his allied devils, dealing fire damage to the party. So a Pit Fiend with a wizard can... Turn a PC into the lowest grade of Devil possible, dominate him for a single round, and then the PC blows up, dealing damage to the rest of the party? That's worse than anything in Tomb of Horrors. At least in Tomb of Horrors I get to stick my head in the sphere of annihilation.
Charles Phipps 01-25-08, 09:43 PM	Nah, this looks more like the work of Loviatar but I understand your point. Shar or Cyrc, really. I never really saw Loviatar as actually trying to inflict blanket MISERY on people. Their pain is more of the screaming, horrible, yelling kind mixed with the PG-13 rated Domination/Submission themes that have been there from the beginning. Shar might actually be better than Cyric, since he usually at least has his priests get rich and happy over it. These guys are just deluded. But seriously, indulgences actually would make sense for Myrkul or Kelemvor.
XHereticX 01-25-08, 09:46 PM	Shar or Cyrc, really. I never really saw Loviatar as actually trying to inflict blanket MISERY on people. Their pain is more of the screaming, horrible, yelling kind mixed with the PG-13 rated Domination/Submission themes that have been there from the beginning. Shar might actually be better than Cyric, since he usually at least has his priests get rich and happy over it. These guys are just deluded. But seriously, indulgences actually would make sense for Myrkul or Kelemvor. Hey, I can even see a deluded cult of Waukeen doing it just for the money.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 11:26 AM	Although the god-choice is wrong for what it is representing itself as, it is appropriate for what it actually turns out to be - The priests are using these fake indulgences to get sex from women too poor to pay, and debauchery does fall into Sune's portfolio. ;) However, I do think that that group should have been 'backed' by some other god, trying to discredit Sune, but who would be right for that? Perhaps Lovatar isn't such a bad choice after all - pain is pleasure's opposite, and she would relish all the suffering by the 'unwashed masses'.
Reneshat 01-26-08, 11:27 AM	George RR Martin ***** on both of them though:D . Yes, but George R.R. Martin's books aren't a stab at socio-political commentary under the thin veil of a fantasy story. That was the point that Markus was trying to make with Goodkind.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 11:40 AM	Thank you for your astute observation. :bow: ;) :D
XHereticX 01-26-08, 11:55 AM	Although the god-choice is wrong for what it is representing itself as, it is appropriate for what it actually turns out to be - The priests are using these fake indulgences to get sex from women too poor to pay, and debauchery does fall into Sune's portfolio. ;) However, I do think that that group should have been 'backed' by some other god, trying to discredit Sune, but who would be right for that? Perhaps Lovatar isn't such a bad choice after all - pain is pleasure's opposite, and she would relish all the suffering by the 'unwashed masses'. Yes, and the selling of indulgences and spiritual salvation also presents a poorly disguised crack at Ilmater, Loviatar's greatest enemy. Yes, it was obvious through Goodkind's work that he is quite anti-socialist, which I don't wholly disagree with.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 11:58 AM	Socialism is the only correct moral choice - anything less equals "every man for himself", which is barbaric. Currently, our Gov't does ZERO for us - I'd rather pay higher taxes and get a few perks, then wars with countries I have no beef with just to steal their resources. So those in charge can get richer.... :rolleyes:
Reneshat 01-26-08, 11:59 AM	Yes, it was obvious through Goodkind's work that he is quite anti-socialist.... My friend, I think you have been gifted with the ability to understate. It is an ability that can greatly benefit you if you go into certain public relations fields. I still think my favorite moment was when I realized the big bad guy was a communist vegan with a child molester side-kick. While the good guy was a brawny crusader for life, liberty, and the capitalist way. That's just the first book! P.S. Soul of Fire has to be the most racist book I have ever read.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 12:04 PM	Socialism is the only correct moral choice - anything less equals "every man for himself", which is barbaric. Currently, our Gov't does ZERO for us - I'd rather pay higher taxes and get a few perks, then wars with countries I have no beef with just to steal their resources. So those in charge can get richer.... :rolleyes: I personally believe in Fiscal Conservatism as the best economic policy, what we need is JOBS and a strong economy, not charity. I am aware of the understatement, and out of respect for Mr. Goodkind I intend to keep it that way. Ironically Goodkind seems to be antagonistic against the religious right as well as the socialist left.
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 12:11 PM	I don't want to pull this anymore off-topic (or get banned), but I'm even more strongly against Communism then I am against pure capitalism - Pure Communism results in slower intellectual growth and progress - without a system of 'reward' in place, their is no reason to 'strive' (so clearly demonstrated by Mr. Goodkind's writngs about the Empire). There are alternatives to both, and several countries have viable working models currently in place. On Topic I was really looking forward to the new rules, practically drooling in anticipation. Now that I've seen what they are planning for the 'spell foci' (wands and such), I no longer have any hope what-so-ever for the new edition. One simple blog entry, and the designer in question managed to turn 'anticipation' into 'dismay'. Oh well... 3e still works fine... ;)
XHereticX 01-26-08, 12:13 PM	Quite the indecisive one aren't we;)
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 12:17 PM	Yup... always. My mind flies along at 1000 miles an hour like a runaway frieght train, and rarely makes any stops long enough to matter. :P And BTW, this is the VERY FIRST TIME I've said anything negative about the rules - up until now all of my negativity has been aimed at the 4e Realms. ;)
XHereticX 01-26-08, 12:22 PM	Off Topic: To tell you the truth, the best way to describe my political philosophical alignment is Libertarianism, I am a cultural/social liberal, but an economic conservative. I also hold some utilitarian beliefs and objectivism, while in my mind still overly self-centered and bigoted, is starting to make more sense.
msatran 01-26-08, 04:47 PM	I try not to share my political philosophy, but it basically boils down to a series of thoughts about the issues. I'm Pro-Choice. I'm Pro Death Penalty. I'm Pro Balanced Budget. I'm Pro Education. I'm anti-war, but if you must go to war, you have to go all the way with it, and show no quarter and no mercy. So we must stay in Iraq, as much as it pains me. Follow through is very important. Who am I voting for? Well, if I have a choice, I'd really like it to be between McCain and Obama. Unfortunately, I don't think that's going to be the case.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 05:51 PM	-Vote Karsus 2008! (Or else he'll sick his robots armed with whips on you. Just ask John...)
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:13 PM	-Vote Karsus 2008! (Or else he'll sick his robots armed with whips on you. Just ask John...) You killed John Lennon.....:eek: :eek: :eek:
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:25 PM	-Hell no! Wrong John.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:26 PM	-Hell no! Wrong John. You killed the man who invented the John????:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:33 PM	-Uh...Yes, I was the impetus for John Lennon's creative anger at the death of his mother and the abandonment of his father at an early age. So, basically, I created The Beatles. :bravo:
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:38 PM	-Uh...Yes, I was the impetus for John Lennon's creative anger at the death of his mother and the abandonment of his father at an early age. So, basically, I created The Beatles. :bravo: .....:rofl: It's funny how you just completly misinterpreted my comment. You usually are a little more sharp than that. I was referring to the man who invented the toilet.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:44 PM	.....:rofl: It's funny how you just completly misinterpreted my comment. You usually are a little more sharp than that. I was referring to the man who invented the toilet. -Ah. I didn't see the 'the'.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:47 PM	-Ah. I didn't see the 'the'. Ahh my short sighted Lord Karsus.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:52 PM	Ahh my short sighted Lord Karsus. -What!? I was never ***** (apparently, you can't write that word, that starts with a 'w', and rhymes with 'door') slighted! You sully my good name, sir! :P
XHereticX 01-26-08, 06:54 PM	-What!? I was never ***** (apparently, you can't write that word, that starts with a 'w', and rhymes with 'door') slighted! You sully my good name, sir! :P I am the Hand that tries to keep you more reasonable and down to earth. We can't have that nasty Gold Elven pride resurface can we...
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 06:58 PM	-Apparently, I am going to be retconned into an Eladrin. I hope it feels tingly.
XHereticX 01-26-08, 07:00 PM	-Apparently, I am going to be retconned into an Eladrin. I hope it feels tingly. Have fun with the reduced elven pantheon:D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 08:35 PM	The priests are using these fake indulgences to get sex from women too poor to pay, and debauchery does fall into Sune's portfolio. ;) However, I do think that that group should have been 'backed' by some other god, trying to discredit Sune, but who would be right for that? Perhaps Lovatar isn't such a bad choice after all - pain is pleasure's opposite, and she would relish all the suffering by the 'unwashed masses'. Selune, not Sune.;) So no, it doesn't make sense...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-26-08, 08:37 PM	I personally believe in Fiscal Conservatism as the best economic policy, what we need is JOBS and a strong economy, not charity. I think charity is fine, as long as it's not mandated.:)
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 08:47 PM	Selune, not Sune.;) So no, it doesn't make sense...Meh... I ALWAYS get those two names mixed up. Hope they kill one of them come 4e, just so I don't get them mixed up anymore. :P And while they are at it, they should do away with anything with the word 'shar' in it - that should wipe out about 50% of the Realms right there. :rolleyes: I think Ed had a thing for 'S'.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:56 PM	-Off the top of my head, citing only deities, there is: Shevarash Sehanine Moonbow Solonar Thelandira Selûne Shar Sharess Sharglass Siamorphe Selvatarm Sune Savras Shaundakul Silvanus Set _________ (Deities I looked up, just for the sake of completeness) Shiallia Sebek Sharindlar Sheela Peryroyl
MarkusTay63 01-26-08, 09:16 PM	Velsharoon The Shaar Shaareach Tsharoon Shaarmid Shaarwood Sharawood etc, etc... And if I wanted to name every city, town, and village, forest, mountain range and Hills that begin with 'S', I could go on for pages. :P
Reneshat 01-27-08, 12:54 AM	On Topic I was really looking forward to the new rules, practically drooling in anticipation. Now that I've seen what they are planning for the 'spell foci' (wands and such), I no longer have any hope what-so-ever for the new edition. One simple blog entry, and the designer in question managed to turn 'anticipation' into 'dismay'. What specifically are you talking about? Is there a link you could share? P.S. I never intended to get people going on their own personal views, I was just trying to remark on Goodkind's obvious and often cheesy political bias. Still, Faith of the Fallen was the best at demonstrating his point.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 01:25 AM	Someone posted it in one of the other threads - the person working on that part of the rules is making it so that Staves shoot rays, wands are for long-range, etc... Instead of giving generic bonuses to casters, each typee will be good at a different 'effect' - it sounds like they are turning 'magic foci' into weapon-pickups that give you upgrades to your ordinance. I don't think that the type of item should determine what type of effect comes out of it, that should be up to the caster.
Reneshat 01-27-08, 01:34 AM	Someone posted it in one of the other threads - the person working on that part of the rules is making it so that Staves shoot rays, wands are for long-range, etc... Instead of giving generic bonuses to casters, each typee will be good at a different 'effect' - it sounds like they are turning 'magic foci' into weapon-pickups that give you upgrades to your ordinance. I don't think that the type of item should determine what type of effect comes out of it, that should be up to the caster. Ahh, I see what you are saying. Actually, it's more along the lines of foci being attached to your spell focus, kind of like schools previously.
GreenKnight 01-27-08, 02:32 AM	Instead of giving generic bonuses to casters, each typee will be good at a different 'effect' - it sounds like they are turning 'magic foci' into weapon-pickups that give you upgrades to your ordinance. Either you misread that, or I'm misreading you (may be me as it is pretty late and I need to get to bed). :P But Michele Carter said that while that's how things worked, that's not how they work, anymore. Instead they give equal bonuses to all kinds of spells. It is no longer the case that specific implements are for certain kinds of spells.
Alkasyn 01-27-08, 04:25 AM	In truth I saw BG's growth as a way to centralize the remaining population, leaving much of the Western Heartlands and Lands of Intrigue as the Sea of Darkness, so to speak. Lots of other areas as well. As to Markus' claims regarding Bioware and BG... your information's a bit out of date. Only the very first Bioware FR-based game even featured BG.. the second (and the more popular in sales numbers) was set in Amn. Bioware then moved up to Neverwinter for their next CRPG (NWN, and at this point we have no idea if Neverwinter survives the Spellplague... especially since we know from Orc King that Luskan does not). They then sold the property to Obsidian (made up of Black Isle guys IIRC, the group that made the Icewind Dale games... speaking of which anyone want to place bets on whether the area Bob really brought to light survives? ;)) for the sequel which is also set in and around Neverwinter (although it extends as far south as the Mere of Dead Men just north of Waterdeep). All that said its a bit thin to claim that they beefed up BG to please Bioware who is deeply entrenched in continuing the development of their incredible (thus far) original sci-fi series for Xbox 360 and hasn't said anywhere I can find that they even plan on developing for FR/WotC/Hasbro in the future. EDIT: Nevermind... there is at least some speculation that EA purchased Bioware to development an MMO based on a fantasy IP that EA paid 860M for... and FR has been suggested as one of the few fantasy IPs that could be worth that much (and doesn't already have an MMO like Warcraft and LotR). Who knows? But the point is, that a lot of people has aeard about the Baldurs Gte games, and me and my friends all got into PnP Fr because of that game. That's why the city known from a game is getting a lot of publicity, even if an another game is not going to be released anytime soon.
XHereticX 01-27-08, 09:53 AM	I really don't think they should ditch the whole Spell Schools concept in general, or the spell focus feat. But that items could be some kind of prequisite to additional upgrades to your specialization. My general thing is that this new concept should be highly useful, but not necessary.
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 10:55 AM	I really don't think they should ditch the whole Spell Schools concept in general... -Getting rid of spell schools (and the descriptors that designate certain spells as 'Divination', or 'Necromancy', or whatever) is seriously going to mess with the continuity of some places. Thay's Zukirs of specific magical schools, for example, or the academies of specific magical schools in Sshamath (Sp?). Now what?
XHereticX 01-27-08, 10:56 AM	-Getting rid of spell schools (and the descriptors that designate certain spells as 'Divination', or 'Necromancy', or whatever) is seriously going to mess with the continuity of some places. Thay's Zukirs of specific magical schools, for example, or the academies of specific magical schools in Sshamath (Sp?). Now what? I have a bad feeling about the fates of both of those places then. Of course, the Spellplague will "realign" everything:rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 11:13 AM	I have a bad feeling about the fates of both of those places then. Of course, the Spellplague will "realign" everything:rolleyes: -That is true. If there might be continuity problems, "nuke" 'em...:rolleyes:
msatran 01-27-08, 01:37 PM	Wow. Instead of hitting a reset button, they really did flush everything down the toilet. This game is going to be so juvenile I don't think I'm going to WANT to play it.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 01:50 PM	Either you misread that, or I'm misreading you (may be me as it is pretty late and I need to get to bed). :P But Michele Carter said that while that's how things worked, that's not how they work, anymore. Instead they give equal bonuses to all kinds of spells. It is no longer the case that specific implements are for certain kinds of spells.Well then, someone must have quoted some old information, in which case I'll have to hunt them down and k... harm them. :rolleyes: If they do as you say, then they are just like the houserules I've been using for twenty years. You know, they could have saved themselves two decades and just come to me. :P Spell Schools I really hate the idea of them ditching spell schools - I think that was one of the most inovative and best-working features in the game, and allowed us to create customized mages (Specialists) with very little effort. I'll see what they have come up with to replace it, but I have a feeling one of the big things a lot of CE (cross-edition) players like myself will be working on first is putting the spell schools back in. Continuity I really don't see this being a problem, since the spell schools were built upon Mystra's Weave, they are an artificial construct that were part of that interface. Once that collapses, Raw Magic may have very different rules about how it is organized. Not that I like that idea, but I don't see a problem with continuity with the Weave gone.
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 03:05 PM	Continuity I really don't see this being a problem, since the spell schools were built upon Mystra's Weave, they are an artificial construct that were part of that interface. -No they aren't, because Specialist mages exist in other Crystal Spheres, where the Weave already never existed.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 03:35 PM	-No they aren't, because Specialist mages exist in other Crystal Spheres, where the Weave already never existed. I never assumed that Mortal Magic of Faerun is the same as Mortal Magic of Krynn.
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 03:51 PM	I never assumed that Mortal Magic of Faerun is the same as Mortal Magic of Krynn. -It's close enough, as Planewalkers and Spelljammers never 'lose' their ability to use magic. But, the fact that specialist mages exist in other places demonstrates that spell schools don't hinge on the Weave.
MarkusTay63 01-27-08, 04:41 PM	They have their own versions of the Weave? :confused: Not that that is canon, but then what other reason is there that arcane magic was limited to 9th level on those worlds as well? Except for Athas... Dark Sun was cool like that... :cool:
Lord Karsus 01-27-08, 10:54 PM	They have their own versions of the Weave? :confused: -No...They have Specialist mages, though. Therefore, Specialist mages are not dependent upon the Weave to exist. Not that that is canon, but then what other reason is there that arcane magic was limited to 9th level on those worlds as well? -No one was as good as the Netherese Arcanists, me being chief among them? There really is no explanation...
johnkretzer 01-28-08, 12:39 AM	They have their own versions of the Weave? :confused: Not that that is canon, but then what other reason is there that arcane magic was limited to 9th level on those worlds as well? Except for Athas... Dark Sun was cool like that... :cool: That is why weave as a 'interface' never made any sense. It was just what the people from FR called however magic worked.
Charles Phipps 01-28-08, 12:57 AM	That is why weave as a 'interface' never made any sense. It was just what the people from FR called however magic worked. It was mostly for crossovers. In all reality, there's no reason Magic on Krynn should work in the Realms (Moons) or Eberron (the Magic comes from the Asteroid Belt) but no one wanted the problem afflicting Clerics.
Bluenose 01-28-08, 05:54 AM	Spell Schools I really hate the idea of them ditching spell schools - I think that was on e of the most inovative and best-working features in the game, and allowed us to create customized mages (Specialists) with ver little effort. I'll see what they have come up with to replace it, but I have a feeling one of the big things a lot of CE (cross-edition) players like myself will be working on first is putting the spell schools back in. Spell schools didn't exist in 1st edition AD&D, at least not in the initial rules. That didn't stop there being two base spellcasting classes, the Magic User and the Illusionist. The illusionist was much more interesting than later versions, because it wasn't the case that they simply were a subset of the ordinary wizard. Instead, the illusionist had a separate spell list that included spells that weren't available to wizards. One of the biggest disappointments of 2nd edition for many players was that specialist wizards stopped being *special*. Instead they lost everything that was unique to them, with wizards being able to cast anything that an illusionist could. One thing that I'm looking forward to actively in 4E is that this seems to be coming back. Illusionists and other specialist types will actually have things they can do that ordinary wizards won't be able to. It will be more work, but imo it will be better. I expect this to annoy some people, but personally I'm delighted.
Suin Bahhar 01-28-08, 03:08 PM	Hmm different classes for the "schools" of magic could turn out fun but I would greatly dislike the nerfing of the generalist. Any wizard worth his salt will ponder nights over an illusion scroll to eventually grasp its arcane secrets.
Bluenose 01-29-08, 03:50 AM	Hmm different classes for the "schools" of magic could turn out fun but I would greatly dislike the nerfing of the generalist. Any wizard worth his salt will ponder nights over an illusion scroll to eventually grasp its arcane secrets. I'm not sure it's so much a matter of nerfing the generalist as forcing them to actually pay something for being as good at illusions, say, as a specialist illusionist. In 1st edition there were many spells that became illusions on the Magic User's spell list, but for an illusionist they were available earlier - and of course the illusionist had some spells unique to the class. In 2nd and 3rd edition the specialist really didn't have much of an advantage when using their speciality over a generalist wizard. I'd suggest that the justification would be that a specialist has studied far more intensely the 'school' that they are interested in than a generalist who studies a wider range of spells would want or have time to. Anyone who commits so much effort to studying illusions at the expense of other areas of magic is probably making themself into an illusionist anyway. This is somewhat speculative, but it appears 4E wil have a new way of multi-classing. There's been talk of feats (such as Wizard training) that will allow a character access to some of the abilities of another class. If a wizard really wants access to the spells that are on a specialists list, then they can presumably get them by spending a feat on Illusionist training or Necromancer training. It might make you slightly less capable than another generalist in most areas, and it probably doesn't make you as good as the specialist in the speciality, but you would get access to the spell you want and probably other options.
MarkusTay63 01-29-08, 11:18 AM	Rather then quote everyone, let me just add to the problems I have always perceived with the Weave - Elminster, and every other FR caster, should NOT be able to use their magic outside of Realmspace, yet they do. This is a terrible case of broken mechanics, and no-one has ever attempted to explain it. Also in FR canon, in the past, magic could achieve levels way in access of level 9, but this was stopped by the limitations imposed by Mystra. So why aren't there epic casters using Raw Magic coming over from Greyhawk and making short work of the Chosen and others? :confused: How can Toril have the Weave, which make its magic different from all others, when the PS/RL/SJ rules clearly state that Torrillian casters can use their magic freely in other spheres? Casters from those other worlds should be able to use non-Weave magic on Toril, but not vice-versa. The only way ANY of that makes sense mechanically is if EVERY known sphere had a god/power that was in charge of magic, and created his own version of the Weave - be it Web, Mantle, Arcano-field, Dweomersphere, etc... - that limited the spellcating abilities of mages in EXACTLY the same way. Either that, or Mystra's Weave was FAR MORE pervasive then any of us ever realized, which just may turn out to be the case in 4e (giving the new multi-spheric core cosmology changes). So, I offer you Athas as proof, because it IS the exception - it had 10th levels spells, and also had NO gods! The lack of any type of deific control couped with the higher spell-casting ability means that 9th level spells has to be some form of magical 'cut-off point' imposed by all gods of magic, or Mystra is some form of over-god of magic (the Archtype? and all others were just other names for her? Its possible, given what we know about the planar changes...). Either that, or after the first Mystra was killed by that b@st@rd Karsus (:P ), the other gods panicked (mortals stealing their godhhod with a spell?!) and had a huge multi-spheric summit, and agreed on the '9th level cap' universally for all spheres from that point on (which also could make sense, since mages in every sphere can no longer construct greater Artifacts). So what do you guys think? :)
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 11:21 AM	-Just like there is an...'adaptation period' for Elves to be able to integrate themselves somewhere new, so too is there an 'adaptation period' for Abeir-Torillian mages. It seems, however, that that period is instantaneous, or extremely quick.
MarkusTay63 01-29-08, 11:31 AM	The novel Elminster in Hell could not have happened in 2e - Mystra had absolutely no power in the Great Wheel Nine Hells. Once Realmspace got its own little 'piece' of Hell with the Tree, the novel made sense. Mystra should have no power in any other Crytal Sphere, yet clearly she does, since her chosen loose none of their power when plane-hopping. Sorry, but as much as I loved The Weave and how it made Faerûn unique, it was broken as far as a multi-spheric cosmology goes. You can't have something that is both unique, and works everywhere. In 3e, is was great, because the worlds were all self-contained. Unfortunely, now that they are obviously going for that 2e 'Multiverse approach' (the SAME Feywild, Shadowfel, and Astral Sea border all worlds), it appears the Weave would have been broken once again mechanically, and needed to be eliminated for the core rules to be as universal as they want them to be. What works on one world, has to work on ALL worlds.
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 11:34 AM	The novel Elminster in Hell could not have happened in 2e - Mystra had absolutely no power in the Great Wheel Nine Hells. Once Realmspace got its own little 'piece' of Hell with the Tree, the novel made sense. -That's what Retcons do. -Though, as Mystra is the Weave, she is always with herself (how can you not), and thus, always has the Weave to access. And, of course, she is a divine power, so make as much as you want to about that as well.
MarkusTay63 01-29-08, 11:47 AM	Are you at least seeing my point, though? As long as Realmspace was self-contained, Mystra and her Weave made perfect sense. Once you have Torillians Planes-hopping, the whole thing begins to fall apart. 2e ignored it, 3e shunted Toril into its own microcosm, and 4e got rid of the Weave, to make evrything work mechanically. If they had included a lttle something in canon about Torillians needing to 'acclimate' themselves, I'd accept that - but when Elminster was teleported to the Saurial homeworld against his will, he immediately got into a fight with TWO dragons! He didn't have to even bat an eye and he was at full-power... that made little sense, if Mystra and her Weave were no where to be found. He beat them rather easily, as well. I'm not saying I'm a fan of the Weave's removal, because I liked that Toril was unique, but I understand why the designers felt it needed to be removed.
Lord Karsus 01-29-08, 12:11 PM	-I know what you're getting at. The entire Time of Troubles shouldn't have been able to take place, with deities like Corellon Larethian, and blocking other deities from the Weave, and whatever else. -Like I said earlier, if you say it only takes an instant, blink of an eye, for a wizard to acclimate himself with the laws of magic/physics of another world, everything is fine. No need to take the holes that already exist, and rip them even more.
Suin Bahhar 01-29-08, 12:17 PM	Weave as a stronger magic transport medium leave mages open for arcane manipulations on other worlds. The most obvious difference mages on Toril had was mage duels. With these fearunian mages could envelope an area in a special weave alignment with certain properties enabling controlled arcane duels. This is the only ability mages lose when leaving Toril. So the weave is more of an stratification (or organisation) of arcane energies than the arcane energy itself. Manipulation of its structure and layers allow magic conditions (Mystras control). I always imagined Planewalker mages feel something different about Toril the moment they stand on its Material. A faint arcane presence at all times that enhances ones awareness of magic energy, making Toril a high-magic world.
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 12:58 PM	Well, I always assumed the Weave wasn't enwrapping Toril but was located on the Astral Plane. Ergo, it touched all the Planes ;-)
MarkusTay63 01-29-08, 01:17 PM	Unfortunetly, I can point to a canon novel to show you exactly how it doesnt 'take an instant' - after the ToT, Psionics had changed subtely, and it took a few days for psionicists to acclimate themselves. Thats why House Oblodra(?) fell - the psionic users were powerless for a short time, and it was long enough for the Lolth pristesses to kick their a__es. Now, it makes far LESS sense for psionicists to be effected by planes-shifting or magical rules changing, then it does for weave users. I know you are going to argue that magics aren't psionics (even though they are treated the same mechanically), but really, once we see in canon that the slightest change to the weave threw off psionic users, why would being on a different planet with NO Weave have ZERO effect (or an an instantaneous adaption, like you say)? Thats just a Deus ex machina, and makes the Weave absolutely meaningless, in my book. I mean really, what is the point of it, if casters can do just fine without it, and don't even need it? Instead of being the 'easy interface' its supposed to be, it just becomes a single law saying "NO spells above 9th", which makes the weave seem very cheesy and Mystra a magical Tyrant. I'd rather say former lore about FR magic working seemlessly in other planes is incorrect, then to say they Weave was meaningless and worthless. :( EDIT: And if it worked as you say, LK, then the Spellplague would not have had any effect what-so-ever; after all, it only takes a Nano-second for magic-users to acclimate to a Weave-free environment, right? ;) No one would have had to develop new magical traditions, and therefore the entire premise of 4e is non-sensical. The only way the Spellplague century works is if FR Mages could NOT use magic beyond Realmspace. Which means that Red Wizard in Ravenloft - Azallin? - doesn't really exist... or better yet, a 'shadowy' replica of the Weave exists within his domain. :dancin:
Triton 01-30-08, 09:59 AM	The weave never made a lot of sense to me. The whole mechanics made no sense. Of course I never understood how Mystra could be anything other than neutral in alignment also. If I recall correctly, they explained how magic could work on other worlds by saying that similar gods made agreements to grant powers to their paramores if they agreed not to "invade" their world. (Wee Jas would grant The Simbul magic, but wouldn't stand for here to open a temple to Mystra in Greyhawk.) In second edition Planescape the Great Wheel was neutral for the most part, but specific planes augmented and weaked certain effects.
MarkusTay63 01-30-08, 10:14 AM	The thing about Priest's magic was from the Spelljammer setting, and at least they tried to address the problem, by talking about those 'divine agreements' you mentioned. It was kinda cheesy, but at least it was an explanation, and divine magic above level 3 did not work in the Phlogiston (no connection to gods or the astral). Now, if there was some kind of table somewhere in canon that cross-referenced a Mages level with his Int and gave us how many hours/days it would take for him to cast spells within a different Crystal Shpere, then most of the stuff about the Weave would work fine - one can assume that magic works slightly different from world to world. After all, physics does, so why wouldn't magic? Unfortunely, for 'ease-of-use', designers just ignored the stupidity of arcane casters having no trouble within other Crystal Spheres. The fact that all spheres were part of the same plane - the Prime Material - helps explain that somewhat, but then you are still stuck with Mystra's Weave, and why it was completely irrelevant to Planes- walkers. Even comics, for all their faults, covered this - when the Scarlet Witch first entered the DC Universe in a crossover, she had NO access to her Chaos magic. She had to concentrate on establishing a connection to that universe's magic, and after awhile she was finally able to cast spells again - far MORE powerful then she normally could! (I guess Marvel has the Weave, too :P) Thats just sad, that comics have a better logical premise then a game setting with RULES. :(
Lord Karsus 01-30-08, 11:53 AM	Unfortunetly, I can point to a canon novel to show you exactly how it doesnt 'take an instant' - after the ToT, Psionics had changed subtely, and it took a few days for psionicists to acclimate themselves. Thats why House Oblodra(?) fell - the psionic users were powerless for a short time, and it was long enough for the Lolth pristesses to kick their a__es. -Psionics aren't magic. I know you are going to argue that magics aren't psionics (even though they are treated the same mechanically), but really, once we see in canon that the slightest change to the weave threw off psionic users, why would being on a different planet with NO Weave have ZERO effect (or an an instantaneous adaption, like you say)? -Ah, there you go. :) -It makes sense, as I said earlier, when you aren't looking for holes, or trying to rip the existing holes even more. The disruption in the Weave caused interference/backlash in Psionics, causing things to go on the fritz for a little while. I turn on my wireless router when the radio is on, and I get a high pitched interference. I shut it off, and the high pitched interference goes away. The Verizon router isn't the Sony radio, but yet, the two effect each other. Thats just a Deus ex machina, and makes the Weave absolutely meaningless, in my book. I mean really, what is the point of it, if casters can do just fine without it, and don't even need it? -The Weave has always been meaningless. It was always a background thing, made to make magic unique in the setting, by giving it an explanation. As everyone said whe it was first revealed that Chris Perkins needed to kill Mystra/remove the Weave to implement the 4e magic system, it doesn't actually do anything mechanically, and is just there for ambience.
Charles Phipps 01-30-08, 01:13 PM	I'd rather say former lore about FR magic working seemlessly in other planes is incorrect, then to say they Weave was meaningless and worthless. Which is silliness since the Gods can grant spells to Clerics on other Planes.
Lord Karsus 01-30-08, 02:10 PM	I'd rather say former lore about FR magic working seemlessly in other planes is incorrect, then to say they Weave was meaningless and worthless. -Let me be a bit more clear. Mechanically, it's existence or nonexistence don't matter.
DanubusRann 01-30-08, 08:08 PM	[Tymanther and the Dragonborn really bug me. Firstly because between this and the Changing Lands, I've probably lost my beloved Chessenta. Secondly, in this region we have/had two/three realms in this region slowly being dominated by dragons - Tchazzar in Chessenta, Alasklerbanbastos and pals in Threskel, Maldraedior in Unther, and the Cult of the Dragon and the worshippers of Tiamat all over place. Where it's entirely feasible for half-dragons to be spawned from the loins of the rulers, or magicked up from Pit Of Many Colours ala the Spawn Of Tiamat. So how do the Dragonborn appear? Spontaneously portaled in from another world, actively ignoring the potential for a logical development from the existing set-up, and the recently developed events of Dragons Of Faerun. This is just incompetence! Im pretty upset and concerned just how they mean to really do this. The Dragonborn were already around and part of Bahamut's religion and then they plop out this new group of dragonborn who hate dragons...wtf.. It seems like they forget their own source material. I hope we find out more about this before the first book comes out. I just cant see them totally wiping out Unther and its ties to Tiamat and replacing it with Dragonborn (which are dragonkin like) and they hate dragons...
msatran 01-30-08, 11:54 PM	There is literally no reason to play 4th edition Forgotten Realms as far as I'm concerned. They've taken something rich and complex and beautiful, and turned it into an inconsistent dungheap. Chris Perkins and Richard Baker are the Dan Didio of the Forgotten Realms. When that book is released, it will be a day that will live in infamy.
The Ubbergeek 01-31-08, 12:14 AM	There is literally no reason to play 4th edition Forgotten Realms as far as I'm concerned. They've taken something rich and complex and beautiful, and turned it into an inconsistent dungheap. Chris Perkins and Richard Baker are the Dan Didio of the Forgotten Realms. When that book is released, it will be a day that will live in infamy. Your opinion, and other disagree. For me, there is more fail at PR and presentation than that. Good portion of this would be ok if better explained and developed. Not everything si gold - sad for Maztica here, but it's positive in the whole still for me. Also, there is a portion of the base, rather big and sizeable, who like them, and the majority is perhaps neutral/bah. But then, the pro are WOTC drones.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 11:22 AM	Your opinion, and other disagree. Ubbergeek, it is pretty well understood that each person's post represents only that person's opinion, unless they state otherwise.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 11:41 AM	Which is silliness since the Gods can grant spells to Clerics on other Planes.No, because divine magic is NOT the same as arcane magic, and thats another thing the Weave and Mystra 'screwed up'. Mystra, as the goddess of Arcane magic, should not have had ANY power over other god's abilities to grant clerical spells, and in my game, such was NEVER the case. It's moronic, and gives Mystra way too much power over her fellow gods. If thats the case, then Mystra WAS a Tyrant, and Shar was the 'good' guy in that scenario, and the other deities - both good and evil alike - should be applauding her! BTW, LK, the thing you quoted wasn't CP, it was from me, and he just chose an odd way of quoting me - you guys are on the same page. ;) As a story element, I loved the weave and was very happy with it in FR. However, once you step into the broader D&D Universe, the entire thing just falls apart. The only way they can possibly rectify ALL the lore is to say that Mystra was in fact an OVER-GOD of magic, and an incarnation of her existed on nearly ALL Prime Worlds, so her rules applied universally across the board. Ergo, someone like Boccob would have just been her GH alias. That may seem far-fetched, but Realmspace being the focal point of some kind of Cosmological catastrophe in 4e - so much so that the planes all re-aligned EVERYWHERE - seems to indicate quite a bit that Mystra's power was NOT indeed confined to Realmspace as we had always thought. The Weave was just her 'interface' on Toril, and just like Apple, Unix, and other GUI's exist for computers, other settings just had other 'flavors' of the same thing. Thats why 9th was the level-cap for spells across the board, and thats why the Weave was really little more then just a term for magic in general. Think about it - thats why they HAD TO do FR first... all over the universe various 'Weaves' are collapsing, and the planes are shifting. We are getting a unified Cosmology in D&D, and the Realms are at the epicenter of the Maelstrom. EDIT: I can't believe you 'WotC Cheerleaders' are still attempting to have a point, when quite obviously your pedestal has just been kicked out from under you. The Realms are VERY different, and MOST people are unhappy about it - get over it. I have NO problem with change, so your argument doesn't hold water. It's the very poor way in which the 4e mechanics are being integrated into the Realms that is causing the problem, not our dislike of change. The choices made concerning the new realms were made by people who hardly know the Realms, and they just didn't care, as long as their "really cool" ideas made it into the setting. I'm not saying some of the ideas aren't worthy, but it just seems that they are using a sledge-hammer when a small pair of trim-scissors would have worked just fine. A big CRACK in the world? PUH-leazzzzzzze!
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 12:23 PM	BTW, LK, the thing you quoted wasn't CP, it was from me, and he just chose an odd way of quoting me - you guys are on the same page. ;) -Well, whoever it was. EDIT:I can't believe you 'WotC Cheerleaders' are still attempting to have a point, when quite obviously your pedestal has just been kicked out from under you. The Realms are VERY differenty, and MOST people are unhappy about it - get over it. I have NO problem with change, so your argument doesn't hold water. -Eh, let's not start 'name calling'. That just gives them a rallying point and spring board: "They are allowed to voice their opinions, we aren't, they are dumb, rah, rah, rah..."
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 01:28 PM	That may seem far-fetched, but Realmspace being the focal point of some kind of Cosmological catastrophe in 4e - so much so that the planes all re-aligned EVERYWHERE - seems to indicate quite a bit that Mystra's power was NOT indeed confined to Realmspace as we had always thought. Actually, I didn't assume that, myself. After all, Worlds and Monsters actually delineates a possible (that is, likely) origin for the "core" universe, and it doesn't have anything to do with what happens on Faerun. So, in other settings, the "new" cosmology will be assumed to have always been in place. The disaster in the FR setting is supposed to explain how the new cosmology got ported in.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 04:41 PM	So Greyhawk simply ceases to exist? How will they explain the changes in Eberron? The entire cosmology was changed by what happened in Realmspace, which makes the Realms a foundation-stone of the universe, IMHO. The new cosmology will exist across the board, and the events that transpired in the Realms were the 'spark' that lit the fuse, as it were.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 04:57 PM	How will they explain the changes in Eberron? -Eberron has it's own, and has always had it's own, seperate cosmology.
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 05:10 PM	-Eberron has it's own, and has always had it's own, seperate cosmology. Yes, as a Planescape Fan, the best way to consider the Great Tree Cosmology is that every single Game-Line is its own MULTIVERSE with gods potentially having different incarnations spread across it. Ergo, the Asmodeus in the Realms Nine Hells is a fragment of the larger Asmodeus spread across all Nine Hells everywhere.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 05:23 PM	Once again we are talking in circles - I'm going by what we know of 4e, and you guys are dropping us all the way back to 2e. In 2e we had one multi-spheric cosmology, and in 4e we will have something completely different, yet similar in it's connectivity. For a brief time (3e), the worlds became 'seperated' and had their own little cosmologies, but that was mostly because WotC's new 'love child' (Eberron) required it, otherwise I sincerely doubt they would have tried to ret-con all the settings back into their own seperate universes. I wonder if they are even going to bring any of that up? Why had the 'spheres' become disconected' for a time? And why is it that the events of FR changed how the rest of the multi-verse was connected to their planes?
Charles Phipps 01-31-08, 06:59 PM	For a brief time (3e), the worlds became 'seperated' and had their own little cosmologies, but that was mostly because WotC's new 'love child' (Eberron) required it, otherwise I sincerely doubt they would have tried to ret-con all the settings back into their own seperate universes. That was the case with Athas too. Seriously, they honestly didn't want to gameworlds linked.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 07:57 PM	Once again we are talking in circles - I'm going by what we know of 4e, and you guys are dropping us all the way back to 2e. -Stop it, then. :P I wonder if they are even going to bring any of that up? Why had the 'spheres' become disconected' for a time? And why is it that the events of FR changed how the rest of the multi-verse was connected to their planes? -It was one of those retcons where "it was always like that". The planes, according to the most current canon, were never all connected and such, as Planescape told us.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 11:08 PM	That was the case with Athas too. Seriously, they honestly didn't want to gameworlds linked.Not so... Athas may not have been connected via Planescape or Spelljammer, but there were Athasian lands within Ravenloft, which made it part and parcel to the D&D multiverse. Also, half-giants made it into core. ;) Considering that I have a STRONG feeling some of RL will wind up in the Shadowfel (Shadow Elves = Shadar kai), then it seems entirely possible that we will see a little piece of Athas once again. I think this inter-connectivity harkens back to an earlier edition, and its a welcome change from the great Tree that most of us never liked.
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 04:46 AM	Even if Eberron was in a totally seperate continuity. If it was around, Ravenloft would still have a realm. :p Continuity is not a high concern, nor should it be.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:23 AM	Yes, as a Planescape Fan, the best way to consider the Great Tree Cosmology is that every single Game-Line is its own MULTIVERSE with gods potentially having different incarnations spread across it. Ergo, the Asmodeus in the Realms Nine Hells is a fragment of the larger Asmodeus spread across all Nine Hells everywhere. I've always hated the whole cosmology aspect/fragment idea. I just coudn't stand the thought of having more than one Asmodeus, more than one Corellon, more than one Garl, etc. It was better in the 2e/Planescape days (which sadly I wasn't around for), when everything was consistant and in order. Hopefully the reunite the cosmologies in 4e, and signs show that it is indeed moving in that direction. All the unique planes of FR and Eberron can all now just be different realms in the Astral Sea, since the whole wheel concept is gone.
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 09:09 AM	It was better in the 2e/Planescape days (which sadly I wasn't around for), when everything was consistant and in order. Hopefully the reunite the cosmologies in 4e, and signs show that it is indeed moving in that direction. All the unique planes of FR and Eberron can all now just be different realms in the Astral Sea, since the whole wheel concept is gone. Uh, they still had avatars in Planescape. Also, when Takhasis died in The Great Wheel, she wasn't dead as Tiamat either as stated in the old Second Edition supplements.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 09:12 AM	Uh, they still had avatars in Planescape. Also, when Takhasis died in The Great Wheel, she wasn't dead as Tiamat either as stated in the old Second Edition supplements. There is a huge difference between avatars of the same deity and actual fragments acting independently of one another in different cosmologies.
MarkusTay63 02-01-08, 10:03 AM	The 2e section on the Mulhorandi Pantheon tried to explain away some of that, and did a comendable job. A diety can take one of its Avatars and 'break it off', creating a self-aware Manifstation, which can then interlope into another sphere. The Manifestation is little more then a demi-god, but if it gets enough followers, it can grow into a full-fledged power once again, completely seperate from the original. For its part, the original god will eventually (one year?) 'grow back' the lost Avatar, provided it didn't lose any power in that time. Even if Eberron was in a totally seperate continuity.QFT, good point. ;)
Charles Phipps 02-01-08, 10:23 AM	There is a huge difference between avatars of the same deity and actual fragments acting independently of one another in different cosmologies. :confused: who said they were acting independently? I assume that it's all the same Asmodeus, it's just Realms-Nine Hells is compartmentalized from Greyhawk-Nine Hells.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 11:48 AM	:confused: who said they were acting independently? I assume that it's all the same Asmodeus, it's just Realms-Nine Hells is compartmentalized from Greyhawk-Nine Hells. That's another thing, it's not just 2 different Asmodeuses, it's two different Nine Hells too. I can tolerate a Asmodean manifestion acting on behalf of it's creator in another Cosmology, but taking and reproducing the entire Nine Hells completly destroys the wonder and uniqueness of the plane and makes it seem like they are in effect mass-produced. It ruins the planes and ruins the cosmology.
MarkusTay63 02-01-08, 12:04 PM	Yeah, all these seperate Hells and Abyss's and everything else is just a little too weird - it's much more preferable to have one place where people from every plane can travel to. I like the idea of 'compartments' within the Hells, for petitioners from different worlds (Planar 'Ghettoes'?), but not the idea of an entire seperate Hell. So maybe folks from Greyhawk travel to the Third level, and Bezelbub is in charge of that lot, or Primes from Toril wind up on the 5th layer, and Mephisto handles their 'cases'. But within all that Hierarchy, it would still be one giant Hell that everyone winds up in. The Abyss is different - by it's very nature their should be NO hierarchy, and everyone would just mix together. The exact same thing would apply to the Heavens and neutral planes as well - seperate regions within the greater whole. It just gets too confusing when you have more then one of something. That means if you go and kill FR's Orcus, or Krynn's Tiamet, its no big deal, because a replacement just shows up a little later on. Oh wait... that does happen. :rolleyes:
XHereticX 02-01-08, 12:12 PM	Hmm, I like your idea. But I think that all the Hells should be accessable to all Prime planes, except that different spirits from different worlds should be limited to different parts of those hells, with an Aspect of an Archdevil serving as the soul collector of each respective world in that region. So if that some adventurer kills the Aspect, it is no big deal for Hell at large.:cool: The same should apply to all planes (though on the chaotic planes it would be a lot more disorganized).
MarkusTay63 02-01-08, 12:26 PM	I figure visiting Primes can go where ever they want (granted that something doesn't kill them first). Petitioners, on the other hand, are stuck there, and assigned a place they have to be. However, I'm picturing almost a pre-1989 Germany situation, with multiple "Berlin Walls", so you would have all kinds of people trying to 'break out' of one, only to wind up in another. Also, Archfiends could make a game of this, being in charge of the petitioners in their 'Ghetto', they would have to make some effort to keep them penned-in (they probably have their power based on how many souls they control). But they would also have 'agents' (spies?) that help souls sneak out of adjoining areas, to add to their own collection. Ahhh, the politics of Helll - you just gotta love it! :dancin:
XHereticX 02-01-08, 12:31 PM	I figure visiting Primes can go where ever they want (granted that something doesn't kill them first). Petitioners, on the other hand, are stuck there, and assigned a place they have to be. However, I'm picturing almost a pre-1989 Germany situation, with multiple "Berlin Walls", so you would have all kinds of people trying to 'break out' of one, only to wind up in another. Also, Archfiends could make a game of this, being in charge of the petitioners in their 'Ghetto', they would have to make some effort to keep them penned-in (they probably have their power based on how many souls they control). But they would also have 'agents' (spies?) that help souls sneak out of adjoining areas, to add to their own collection. Ahhh, the politics of Helll - you just gotta love it! :dancin: Hell yes I do, that's why the devils are my favorite face in the planes (with obryiths and loths tied for a close second). I still can't believe they are ditching the Blood War and turning all the loths into bloody demons!!! Most of the changes to the planes I find positive but this kind of spoils it. Hmm, I think you should add to that the competition for souls between even the various aspects of the same archdevil, and frequent "raids" that could open up primes from one world to the wider hells. Maybe after breaking down millions of walls and bypassing all kinds of illusions they could even reach the court of the true archdevil. After that, just 8 more Hells to go;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:17 PM	How will they explain the changes in Eberron? I have no clue.:) Even though the FR is being accused of being turned into something similar to Eberron, the Eberron setting has elements in it that don't quite fit with the 4E design principles either (such as modern technology powered by magic, ie. "magitech").
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:19 PM	-Eberron has it's own, and has always had it's own, seperate cosmology. I was thinking, though, if they needed (wanted?) to change the FR around to fit what's going to be in the "core" setting, why wouldn't they do that with Eberron?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:20 PM	And why is it that the events of FR changed how the rest of the multi-verse was connected to their planes? Sorry Markus, but I still don't agree that that's what happened.:) Of course, that's just MY personal take.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:29 PM	I was thinking, though, if they needed (wanted?) to change the FR around to fit what's going to be in the "core" setting, why wouldn't they do that with Eberron? Eberron is their prize hen that is pumping out the eggs for them, and they will leave it largely intact so that is continued it's productivity. FR is the old hen that is no longer fertile, so they chop it up into mincemeat and make chicken nuggets to feed the little kinds in hopes of starting a new means of profit.;)
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:41 PM	I was thinking, though, if they needed (wanted?) to change the FR around to fit what's going to be in the "core" setting, why wouldn't they do that with Eberron? -Because Eberron doesn't have a traditional set-up. They have planes that don't exist anywhere else, and planes that exist everywhere else, they don't have. Too much of the setting, from what I've heard, is dependent on that cosmology.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:42 PM	Maybe. I find it all rather sad though.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:44 PM	Maybe. I find it all rather sad though. Whoever said the world was a happy place?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:45 PM	Too much of the setting, from what I've heard, is dependent on that cosmology. It is. Still, as I've mentioned before, it was interesting to read the 4E design principles and find that the Eberron setting doesn't exactly conform to them. Yet, it's the FR that's getting ripped apart to make it conform more...sort of (Halruaa exploded, yet that area met the "World is more fantastic" mandate).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:45 PM	Whoever said the world was a happy place? :rolleyes: Nobody. I was just making a comment. Not a reason to get on a pedestal to teach me a life lesson. I've had REAL problems in my life, so I don't think I need that.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 02:46 PM	:rolleyes: Nobody. I was just making a comment. As was I, for the purpose of making a comment and nothing more;)
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 02:55 PM	Still, as I've mentioned before, it was interesting to read the 4E design principles and find that the Eberron setting doesn't exactly conform to them. Yet, it's the FR that's getting ripped apart to make it conform more...sort of (Halruaa exploded, yet that area met the "World is more fantastic" mandate). -Well, it's really the only setting left. Greyhawk isn't supported anymore, nor is Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Planescape, Spelljammer, etc. Since Eberron is 'untouchable', for reasons pointed out above, that leaves on the Forgotten Realms. And, the Realms are not 'untouchable'.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 03:10 PM	As was I, for the purpose of making a comment and nothing more;) Fair enough.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 03:10 PM	- And, the Realms are not 'untouchable'. Well THAT much is obvious... :-/
msatran 02-01-08, 04:30 PM	Well, the problem is that Halruaa exploded. WHY CAN'T THEY !@!@#$%ing do anything without BLOWING STUFF UP? That's the part that I can't stand. Major wars devastate areas almost as much. Why didn't they just have Halruaa go to war with Dambrath over land and religious views. If you have two essentially monotheistic nations with state religions NEXT TO EACH OTHER, something's gotta give. But no, apparently the Realms is no longer about international politics and logic. This is classic "Let's have a cosmic crisis" comic book logic. And there are already problems with it. For instance: If there was really an Orc Kingdom in the north in 1372, half of the stuff in Blackstaff can't happen. Why? Because the Moonstars would (logically) react to this threat by KILLING THEM OFF. Khelben would be like "My god, an orc kingdom? This is a COLOSSAL THREAT." And quite frankly, dead in 1375 or no, I don't think he gives two !@#$! what Drizzt and Bruenor think. The Spellplague, likewise, is guaranteed to present at least one situation that is "George Perez's Wonder Woman" that will !#@$ everything up.
Fabius Maximus 02-01-08, 08:22 PM	Or Khelben thought that he simply had more important things to do...
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:23 PM	Well, the problem is that Halruaa exploded. WHY CAN'T THEY !@!@#$%ing do anything without BLOWING STUFF UP? That's the part that I can't stand. Major wars devastate areas almost as much. Why didn't they just have Halruaa go to war with Dambrath over land and religious views. If you have two essentially monotheistic nations with state religions NEXT TO EACH OTHER, something's gotta give. But no, apparently the Realms is no longer about international politics and logic. This is classic "Let's have a cosmic crisis" comic book logic. And there are already problems with it. For instance: If there was really an Orc Kingdom in the north in 1372, half of the stuff in Blackstaff can't happen. Why? Because the Moonstars would (logically) react to this threat by KILLING THEM OFF. Khelben would be like "My god, an orc kingdom? This is a COLOSSAL THREAT." And quite frankly, dead in 1375 or no, I don't think he gives two !@#$! what Drizzt and Bruenor think. The Spellplague, likewise, is guaranteed to present at least one situation that is "George Perez's Wonder Woman" that will !#@$ everything up. Well, there is a little problem in the middle of his grand plan. You might have heard of her, her name is Alustriel.;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 08:34 PM	Oh god, not the Orc Kingdom argument again.
XHereticX 02-01-08, 08:36 PM	Oh god, not the Orc Kingdom argument again. Oh god, not the person that thinks orcs are animals again:D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 08:46 PM	Oh god, not the person that thinks orcs are animals again:D :cool: :D :P :dancin:
msatran 02-01-08, 08:51 PM	The problem is that the Realms was never MEANT to be politically correct. I don't believe, for an instant, that an orc kingdom is viable in a world with Player Characters where Orcs are presented as monsters. Be that as it may, Khelben's Moonstars are proactive, not reactive. Alustriel would not react to Khelben's actions because she would have no reason, at that time, to expect diplomacy. The Silver Marches would just wake up one day, and the Orc armies of Obould would be burnt to a crisp. At Khelben's level, it takes less than a day to deal with that entire plot. And that's if he goes alone. The problem here isn't "Khelben thinks he has more important things to do." The problem is "How stupid do we think the Moonstars are, and how many of them does it take to get rid of the 'threat'?" And there really is a point of no return on this stuff.
Straploknight 02-01-08, 09:00 PM	After reading about Halruaa blowing up and Maztica fading away, I think I'll be getting the 4E FR book when it comes out to settle my curiosity, but that'll be it for FR. The core 4E sounds interesting, and will probably make a fine point for a home brew campaign, but the more I hear about 4E FR, the more I think it would have been better to put the old horse down like Barbaro
XHereticX 02-01-08, 09:12 PM	The problem is that the Realms was never MEANT to be politically correct. I don't believe, for an instant, that an orc kingdom is viable in a world with Player Characters where Orcs are presented as monsters. Be that as it may, Khelben's Moonstars are proactive, not reactive. Alustriel would not react to Khelben's actions because she would have no reason, at that time, to expect diplomacy. The Silver Marches would just wake up one day, and the Orc armies of Obould would be burnt to a crisp. At Khelben's level, it takes less than a day to deal with that entire plot. And that's if he goes alone. The problem here isn't "Khelben thinks he has more important things to do." The problem is "How stupid do we think the Moonstars are, and how many of them does it take to get rid of the 'threat'?" And there really is a point of no return on this stuff. Khelben may be a conservative utilitarian to the extreme, but he is also a pragmatist. He is also not stupid. If he needlessly slaughters viable trade partners for no other reason than old stereotypes that have been repetedly dismantled by Obould's unnatural behavior, he may find himself with quite the number of unfriendly faces. Also, I think Laeral, who is close to Alustriel and would most likely support her plans, would do what she can to stop him from commiting such actions. Frankly, Khelben's pragmatic side would prevail with the promise of a new trade ally in the Silver Marches and a possible military asset as well against the real enemy in the West, the Zhents. He would most likely also realize that Obould's example could serve to curb the ever pestilant orc incursions in the North, a huge problem for Waterhavians. All-in-all, if Khelben is the realist I assume he is, he would not attack the Kingdom of Many-Arrows (at least not without deep contemplation).
msatran 02-01-08, 11:14 PM	You can't seriously consider the Zhents a larger military threat than 150,000 Orcs. That's patently and utterly absurd. What are the orcs going to trade? They don't have the viable skillsets necessary to actually BE that trading partner. The short term assets would only be as mercenaries, which would severely depopulate them. You can't turn a military culture into a civilian culture overnight, it takes at least 25 years. Beating all those swords into ploughshares on nonviable land is a particularly difficult task, as well as an onerous one for Gruumsh worshippers. Let's look at who holds the resources in the Silver Marches. The Dwarves mine minerals, valuble mithril and adamantine. The humans farm the lands and the valleys. The Elves of the Moonwood, in conjunction with the humans, raise timber and control the flow of lumber. All the orcs have is rock. This "Trading Partner" that you speak of has no GOODS. Not to mention that I don't really think Alustriel would consider peace with these creatures for five seconds. Pretty much, she ate Bruenor's decision and was discomfited by it. If I were Alustriel, I wouldn't stop Khelben from blowing them up. I'd Pontius Pilate the whole thing. But...be that as it may, that distracts from the real nature of my point, which is that the creation of needless continuity errors creates dissatisfied customers and makes us think that the Realms Designers are idiots. The Orc Kingdom clearly is such an error. Plus, it shows signs of being hastily written into backstory.
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 01:46 AM	You can't seriously consider the Zhents a larger military threat than 150,000 Orcs. That's patently and utterly absurd. -The Zhentarim, as a whole, is a greater threat, simply because they are a more insidious threat. Like Darth Sidious, the Zhentarim's touch is nearly invisible, and their influence spread wide. An Orc kingdom, however, is a threat, but a more 'present' threat, as opposed to the Zhents, who are a more 'longterm' threat.
18DELTA 02-02-08, 02:12 AM	-Lets not forget about Netheril.:eek: 18DELTA:rimshot:
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 02:21 AM	-Lets not forget about Netheril.:eek: -They don't exist. Yet.
18DELTA 02-02-08, 02:25 AM	-They don't exist. Yet. -:eek: My bad, my mistake! The Shades then.;) :P :D 18DELTA:D
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 02:29 AM	The Shades then.;) :P :D -Yes, they exist. They're probably more on the 'priority list' of the Moonstars, since they are a 'wildcard', since no one really knows what exactly it is that they want. Right now, anyway.
Priamon 02-02-08, 08:21 AM	You can't seriously consider the Zhents a larger military threat than 150,000 Orcs. That's patently and utterly absurd. What are the orcs going to trade? They don't have the viable skillsets necessary to actually BE that trading partner. The short term assets would only be as mercenaries, which would severely depopulate them. You can't turn a military culture into a civilian culture overnight, it takes at least 25 years. Beating all those swords into ploughshares on nonviable land is a particularly difficult task, as well as an onerous one for Gruumsh worshippers. Let's look at who holds the resources in the Silver Marches. The Dwarves mine minerals, valuble mithril and adamantine. The humans farm the lands and the valleys. The Elves of the Moonwood, in conjunction with the humans, raise timber and control the flow of lumber. All the orcs have is rock. This "Trading Partner" that you speak of has no GOODS. Not to mention that I don't really think Alustriel would consider peace with these creatures for five seconds. Pretty much, she ate Bruenor's decision and was discomfited by it. If I were Alustriel, I wouldn't stop Khelben from blowing them up. I'd Pontius Pilate the whole thing. But...be that as it may, that distracts from the real nature of my point, which is that the creation of needless continuity errors creates dissatisfied customers and makes us think that the Realms Designers are idiots. The Orc Kingdom clearly is such an error. Plus, it shows signs of being hastily written into backstory. I hear a 150,000 Orc warriors is a pretty decent army if you have to go to war with someone... :thinks: No goods? Well figure 15 orcs to a Caravan gaurd, thats 10,000 groups of gaurds. so um, What kind of brigands have to be stupid enough to attack a caravan with well armored/geared orcs? Plus orcs make decent scouts/rangers. So your probably thinking, well yeah, but your never going to use that many orcs to gaurd Caravans. And your probably right. Not in that one location. But you could divide them up all along the Sword coast. Now your Orc army advesary/new ally is slightly more manageable while at the same time your somewhat civilizing small groups of orcs. Orcs have Darkvision, so I can't imagine why they wouldn't be good at mining. Okay, so the Dwarves have the Monopoly on quality, doesn't mean they have the monopoly on quanity. Quanity often outways quality. like... when you need to outfit a large army. Really the concept of an Orc kingdom coming from Obould isn't that rediculous. Its hard to concieve, but not immposible. There is always going to be a consumer looking for a still servicable, but cheaper product, and there is no reason that an Orc can't provide it. Either by making it or .. Raiding it.
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 10:17 AM	I hear a 150,000 Orc warriors is a pretty decent army if you have to go to war with someone... :thinks: No goods? Well figure 15 orcs to a Caravan gaurd, thats 10,000 groups of gaurds. so um, What kind of brigands have to be stupid enough to attack a caravan with well armored/geared orcs? Plus orcs make decent scouts/rangers. So your probably thinking, well yeah, but your never going to use that many orcs to gaurd Caravans. And your probably right. Not in that one location. But you could divide them up all along the Sword coast. Now your Orc army advesary/new ally is slightly more manageable while at the same time your somewhat civilizing small groups of orcs. Orcs have Darkvision, so I can't imagine why they wouldn't be good at mining. Okay, so the Dwarves have the Monopoly on quality, doesn't mean they have the monopoly on quanity. Quanity often outways quality. like... when you need to outfit a large army. Really the concept of an Orc kingdom coming from Obould isn't that rediculous. Its hard to concieve, but not immposible. There is always going to be a consumer looking for a still servicable, but cheaper product, and there is no reason that an Orc can't provide it. -Of course, Orcs are Chaotic Evil. That throws a wrench in all of that. Either by making it or .. Raiding it. -That's the mantra of things nowadays, so I hear.
msatran 02-02-08, 12:35 PM	-Of course, Orcs are Chaotic Evil. That throws a wrench in all of that. -That's the mantra of things nowadays, so I hear. I mean, really, you know, I didn't want to belabor the obvious, LK, but thank you for coming to my aid. A CE Kingdom is a lot less viable of a partner than a LN Kingdom. Even if I do convert to 4th edition, I'd be keeping the old alignment system.
Alediran 02-02-08, 01:32 PM	Even if I do convert to 4th edition, I'd be keeping the old alignment system. And convert the whole set of Alignment dependant Spells.
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 01:58 PM	I mean, really, you know, I didn't want to belabor the obvious, LK, but thank you for coming to my aid. A CE Kingdom is a lot less viable of a partner than a LN Kingdom. -Hey, sometimes you see everything but the most obvious things.
Charles Phipps 02-02-08, 03:04 PM	The problem is that the Realms was never MEANT to be politically correct. I don't believe, for an instant, that an orc kingdom is viable in a world with Player Characters where Orcs are presented as monsters. Uhhhh, Half-Orcs? Are all of them assumed to be the result of war crimes in your games? The problem here isn't "Khelben thinks he has more important things to do." The problem is "How stupid do we think the Moonstars are, and how many of them does it take to get rid of the 'threat'?" Actually, what I'm confused by is why you think Khelben would do anything militarily? Wouldn't Khelben be much more likely to go up to Obould, put a permanent Domination spell over his head and then manipulate the orcish kingdom from the inside? Khelben's defining moment was giving Fzoul Chembyrl an artifact that could destroy all the gods in the Realms. Really, to be honest, The Moonstars would get slaughtered if they tried to do anything on their own. Because you can't infiltrate 150,000 Orcs and there's no way in Hell anything but the whole :censored: Lord's Alliance would be able to defeat a horde like that. The Moonstars are like a 100 guys versus the Harpers who are MUCH better qualified for something like this. Khelben would LOVE Obould. It would be a perfect chance for him to manipulate the Orcs behind the scenes while effectively neutralizing the whole of their threat. Hell, you might assume the reason the Orcs become such wusses in 94 years is entirely Khelben's doing after he tosses a Helm of Opposite Alignment on him.
msatran 02-02-08, 04:01 PM	Well, actually, I think you're not looking at the spells in the Players Handbook closely enough, but that's just me. It's a complete cakewalk to infiltrate Obould's generals as the PC's, and another complete cakewalk to impersonate them and kill Obould. Veil is your friend. It's only 6th level. Once you do that, you just call a giant meeting and rain area of effect death upon them in the form of spells like Storm of Vengance and Meteor Swarm. Any Orc under Level 10 is pretty much toast on Round 1. The Sudden Maximize feat on Storm of Vengance would neutralize almost everything, and it's virtually impossible to get out of the radius. The orcs don't have a million high level casters, it's just a horde of Orcs. An entire group of player characters numbering 4-6 18th level PC's would totally own Obould and his Orc Kingdom. Khelben's defining moment is when he looks at Elminster during the Avatar Trilogy and says "This is ridiculous" while he stares at the prismatic sphere. That completely informs my opinion of him as a man who does not like to have people sit there when you can quickly get things over with. As for Half Orcs, well, they aren't all assumed to be the result of war crimes, but second and third generation Half-Orcs do exist. But for the most part, Half-Orcs who are part of Orc tribes consider themselves orcs. The problem here has way more to do with "Chaotic Evil" and less to do with the consistency issue, which I've been trying to get back to for about three posts now. In my home game, I have to actually ask one of my players if he will allow the existence of the Orc Kingdom, since he, as the highest level Druid in the Moonwood, can pretty much stop it just by casting Control Weather daily until they leave, but that's neither here nor there. Think about how different our games would have been if we knew of the existence of this kingdom for the past three years of their time. This just plain doesn't make any sense.
MarkusTay63 02-02-08, 04:08 PM	In EVERY SINGLE CANON case where Orcs were accepted and treated with kindness by humans, they responded in kind. Its kind of hard to be nice to demihumans, when they've spent the last 30,000 years hunting your kind like animals. Orcs are trained form birth to "get them BEFORE they get us", because they don't know any other way. Even a thousand years ago, Elminster scoffed at the idea of Orcs as "Baby-killers" (it was in EiMD), when someone (an Elf!) told him an Orc prisoner was taken while 'roasting a human child'. It was a lie, and El KNEW it was - if Elminster knows the limits of an Orc's depredations, then why can't you see that they are easily redeemable? A creature is a product of its environment, and if someone like Semmenon can learn to love, why couldn't Orcs learn to co-exist in peace? No one is saying they all turn to good - not even WoW tries to say that, but just like amongst humans, you will always have your good ones and your bad ones. If there can be evil Elves, Dwarves, and humans, why CAN'T there be good Orcs, or at least neutral ones? Alingment is a sham, and its time has come and went. A person should be judged by their actions, not to what race they are born. Elst, we would never have had our "Drizzt's" in FR.
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 04:17 PM	Its kind of hard to be nice to demihumans, when they've spent the last 30,000 years hunting your kind like animals. -You're not actually trying to justify Orcish Hordes and whatnot, are you? That kind of logic also says that we shouldn't blame hardened criminals, because society, not their own personal decisions, turned them into criminals, and it is out fault, not theirs. :rolleyes: A creature is a product of its environment, and if someone like Semmenon can learn to love, why couldn't Orcs learn to co-exist in peace? If there can be evil Elves, Dwarves, and humans, why CAN'T there be good Orcs, or at least neutral ones? -Of course, Orcs are a little more than just creatures of their environment. They were created by an evil deity (Gruumsh), to do evil things (eat Elves, etc.). That's not to say that there can't be good and/or Neutral Orcs, but let's not turn Orcs into a society filled with Drizzts, here. Alingment is a sham, and its time has come and went. A person should be judged by their actions, not to what race they are born. -Of course, when both nature and nurture tells you to do 'evil' things, or at least, 'heavy handed things', as Orcs are naturally less intelligent than Humans, or Elves...
MarkusTay63 02-02-08, 04:25 PM	Do you actually know when the first Orcish Horde went on a rampage? We only know of the ones we are told about, but AFAIK, none were ever reported to be 'the first'. How do you know what precipitated that? How do you know it wasn't the newly arrived Elves destroying peaceful Orc villages, and chasing them from their forests? Or Dwarves, looking for precious metals and gemstones invading the mountain homes of Orcs, and driving them from their caves? It appears to me that this was a simple case of primitive aboriginal people trying to defend their homes from technologically superior invaders. And since Elves worship Gruumsh now, I've been right all along, and the Orcs were an outcast part of Fey races, driven from Faerie because of their 'ugliness'. I stand by my statements - the Orcs were never the TRUE monsters... history just painted them as such. The Orcs were victims.... ;)
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 04:34 PM	Do you actually know when the first Orcish Horde went on a rampage? We only know of the ones we are told about, but AFAIK, none were ever reported to be 'the first'. -We don't know when/where the first Orc Horde was. We do know that the first recorded Orc Horde was the one that rampaged through Occidian. The same Horde that, as I pointed out earlier, was trafficking with Demons from the Abyss. How do you know what precipitated that? How do you know it wasn't the newly arrived Elves destroying peaceful Orc villages, and chasing them from their forests? Or Dwarves, looking for precious metals and gemstones invading the mountain homes of Orcs, and driving them from their caves? -We do not know the circumstances that prompted that stampede of Orcs. We can look at other canon sources that mention Orc Hordes to get a more illuminated picture as to why the Orcs were running around, looting, pillaging and destroying. My personal theory is that, as they were involved with Demons, the Demons used their position to incite more Chaos, as they are inclined to do. It appears to me that this was a simple case of primitive aboriginal people trying to defend their homes from technologically superior invaders. -As you youself just said a moment ago, we do not know what exactly prompted that Orc Horde. Now you are just making things up to support your hypothesis. :P And since Elves worship Gruumsh now, I've been right all along, and the Orcs were an outcast part of Fey races, driven from Faerie because of their 'ugliness'. -Can I see this in 'fact'? I've heard people tossing the idea around, but I've never actually seen it in writing. The closest I've seen is that Talos and Gruumsh will be merged. I stand by my statements - the Orcs were never the TRUE monsters... history just painted them as such. The Orcs were victims.... ;) -And, I stand by mine. You can't expect anyone to take seriously the notion that it is the "global societys'" fault that Orcs are violent, brutish, react with violence to nearly everything, and, every so often, unleash massive armies of bodies onto the world. Just like it is your fault, MT, that John Doe is a criminal currently in jail. After all, society treated him bad, and as such, he is no longer responsible for any of his actions. Society is. -This type of thinking (in the real world)...No, I do not like it one bit. No matter what circumstances, everyone is responsible for their own actions. Society is good/mean/indifferent to me, I am still aware that if I mug and murder some random person, I am responsible for that. I'm sorry...:mad:
Charles Phipps 02-02-08, 05:02 PM	Really, the issue isn't Khelben in my mind. Khelben would consider the issue beneath him, I think as would most of the Chosen of Mystra (Though Alustriel seemed to be acting gravely out of character in her talks with Bruenor). They deal with magical and other threats from beyond. Obould Many Arrow's threat is an entirely mundane one without any demons or super-gods behind it. However, for once, we'd see the possibility of Pier and the others Lords of the Alliance having a chance to shine. If I were the one put in charge of the setting, I'd have Obould in a MAJOR war with them in the Spell Plague just as his descendents prove less enlightened with them. The war would decimate a lot of the Orc Horde but also result in massive causalties for the Lord's Alliance. In the end, I could see the Lords Alliance winning and resulting in a sort of "Marshal Plan" where the Orcs are basically kept under an occupation. This long-reaching idea utterly stuns a lot of people but results in some humans and orcs working together.
msatran 02-02-08, 11:00 PM	See, I would buy that if Texter were in charge (and in my game he is, because Piergieron is dead), because Texter crusades a whole lot more. But honestly, I don't think It would get that far. The key thing to remember about the Moonstars IMHO, is that they're Proactive rather than Reactive.
Charles Phipps 02-02-08, 11:28 PM	See, I would buy that if Texter were in charge (and in my game he is, because Piergieron is dead), because Texter crusades a whole lot more. But honestly, I don't think It would get that far. The key thing to remember about the Moonstars IMHO, is that they're Proactive rather than Reactive. Yes, and Khelben has absolute authority over them. Remember, the Moonstars have no authority to act on their own. Individual members have far less autonomity than typical Harpers who more or less are allowed to create their missions as they go along. If Khel doesn't tell them to go against the Orc Horde, they will not get involved. Not that the Moonstars would necessarilly be able to do anything. Again, gods are involved and Obould was unable to be killed by Drizzt. Unless Khel and Larael is there, I'm pretty sure that all Moonstars would fail if they tried to stop him.
Priamon 02-03-08, 12:40 AM	-Of course, Orcs are Chaotic Evil. That throws a wrench in all of that. -That's the mantra of things nowadays, so I hear. This is why I hate racial alignment. Elst, we would never have had our "Drizzt's" in FR.. Maybe Racial alignments aren't that bad after all......... :thinks: Do you actually know when the first Orcish Horde went on a rampage? We only know of the ones we are told about, but AFAIK, none were ever reported to be 'the first'. How do you know what precipitated that? How do you know it wasn't the newly arrived Elves destroying peaceful Orc villages, and chasing them from their forests? Or Dwarves, looking for precious metals and gemstones invading the mountain homes of Orcs, and driving them from their caves? It appears to me that this was a simple case of primitive aboriginal people trying to defend their homes from technologically superior invaders. And since Elves worship Gruumsh now, I've been right all along, and the Orcs were an outcast part of Fey races, driven from Faerie because of their 'ugliness'. I stand by my statements - the Orcs were never the TRUE monsters... history just painted them as such. The Orcs were victims.... . I'm with this guy, everyone should love there neighbors, even if they're ugly orcs. The humans and dwarves should be persecuted for there crimes. .... Really though, I can't belive that in Faerun there aren't any Orc kingdoms, maybe small ones, maybe Neutral ones, Maybe Neutral evil, I don't care what the alignment is or size, but for there population size you would think there would be at least one orc with brains, brawn and charisma enough to setup some kind of society that gets along with some of the realms. Hell put it next to Thay. That would work grand. Or the Shaar, or the new "Halruaa" or make it Obould. I think it would be interesting.
Charles Phipps 02-03-08, 12:54 AM	This is why I hate racial alignment. Frankly, I always wondered why people had difficulty differentiating between the various ideas. Manticores think like animals but are intelligent and carnivores- Always Evil. Orcs come from a culture of plunder and murder, those raised outside of it are find = Mostly Evil.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:49 AM	...I think as would most of the Chosen of Mystra (Though Alustriel seemed to be acting gravely out of character in her talks with Bruenor). -Alustriel, asides for being a Chosen of Mystra, is the de facto leader of Silverymoon. As a result, she needs to worry about not only the wants and needs of Mystra, but the wants and needs of her people. A massive Orc Horde, an Orc Kingdom, and whatever else is something that would have some impact on the people of Silverymoon, who are living, more or less, 'nextdoor'. Frankly, I always wondered why people had difficulty differentiating between the various ideas. Manticores think like animals but are intelligent and carnivores- Always Evil. Orcs come from a culture of plunder and murder, those raised outside of it are find = Mostly Evil. -This is where the 'Nature versus Nurture' argument rears it's head. Are Orcs evil due to a culture of violence and such being ingrained in their society for hundreds and thousands of years, or are they evil because of a natural "seed of evil" implanted in them by Gruumsh when he created them? Some cases are more clear cut- Demons and Devils, for example, while others are not so clear cut- Drow and Duergar, as another example.
Priamon 02-03-08, 04:11 AM	Frankly, I always wondered why people had difficulty differentiating between the various ideas. Manticores think like animals but are intelligent and carnivores- Always Evil. Orcs come from a culture of plunder and murder, those raised outside of it are find = Mostly Evil. I don't really think that "animal, Intelligent, and Carnivore" define evil. There are a lot of animals in the world that are intelligent and carnivorous that we don't consider evil. And its not so much that orcs come from a culture of plunder and murder, there fore are evil that I find hard to belive. Its the fact that while one orc tribe in the Silver Marches plunders and murders, so does the one in the Stormhorns near Cormyr, and the ones in the Dalelands, and the ones in the Far north, and every other tribe on the face of Faerun fall into the same category- Murders, Plunderers= Chaotic evil. Doesn't make sense to me. I don't under stand why there isn't more variation is all. Some orcs should be CEvil, some Levil, some Nevil, some just plain Neutral. The enviroment is never going to be exactly the same, so it shouldn't be "mostly evil" I would much rather see - Orc, Humoniod, d10 Hit dice, etc etc etc. With no alignment. And then in the Forgotten realms Handbook see something under the regional that says Orcs in this area trend towards X alignment. :bigeyes:
Priamon 02-03-08, 04:20 AM	-This is where the 'Nature versus Nurture' argument rears it's head. Are Orcs evil due to a culture of violence and such being ingrained in their society for hundreds and thousands of years, or are they evil because of a natural "seed of evil" implanted in them by Gruumsh when he created them? Some cases are more clear cut- Demons and Devils, for example, while others are not so clear cut- Drow and Duergar, as another example. This goes along with some of the stuff that I like about 4Ed so far. just because Bane has access to some messed up portfolios he's still also a god of war. Which leads to areas that have seen war recently in there past being probable locales for his churches even though the people of the area aren't necessarily evil. I think Gods and Deities should have a natural bent for one direction in the alignment spectrum, and that there followers generally do as well. But I don't think it should be exactly the same, which is why I liked that in 3ed you only had to be close to the alignment. Guumsh should have been Gruumsh and some other Tribal naturey deity rolled into one, give Orcs a more Highlander tribal feel. I really like the way Eberron runs alot of there humonoids. Feels more legitimate. I also like being able to put an orc in front of my party that has a sword and is all bloody and say "what do you guys do?" typically parties would go "EVIL slay!" But what if there was a small infant behind him in the bushes and he just killed a few brigands that killed its mother? or he could have killed the mother. I just would rather the players have to look at it from more than one angle and the whole Orcs=Chaotic Evil, along with many other monsters in the MM make that hard to do...... okayyyy, that was going to be a short awnser and turned into a rant... Apologies for that. :D
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:04 PM	just because Bane has access to some messed up portfolios he's still also a god of war. -I wouldn't consider Bane a war deity. He is, and quite rightly, a deity of evil. But what if there was a small infant behind him in the bushes and he just killed a few brigands that killed its mother? -You kill the infant too, so that it doesn't grow up a life of misery and suffering, as Orcs are want to do, and so that it doesn't kill an infant itself when it grows up. So, you're actully doing it a favor by putting it out of its misery. (-I had player actually do this, with Yeti infants, though. Don't worry, I penalized him. Lord Karsus isn't that hardline.)
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 12:17 PM	There are KINGDOMS of evil Elves, KINGDOMS of evil Dwarves, and of course, the evilest of the lot - the Human Kingdoms. Obviously ALL humanoids, being intelligent creatures, are capable of getting along with other intelligent creatures. Think about it - the Drow and the Illithid don't like each other, and they are two of the evilest races out there - yet they respect each other enough to trade and form political ties. The same can be said about the Dark Iron Dw... ummm... the Duergar, who also deal with the other two, even though they all hate each other. Are you guys saying that surface races are less capable of amicable relations then the evil subterranean ones? :uh-huh: When the Tuigan attacked Faerûn, Zhentil Keep joined the Alliance because the Tuigan were a great enough threat that countries were forced to turn aside their traditional animosities. I'm re-reading The Crusade right now, and not only does Azoun personally deal with an Zhentish Envoy with a Cyric tat on her head, but the Orc troops that join him later follow orders BETTER then most of the human troops! The humans, and especially the Dwarves, 'freaked out' about fighting along side Orcs, but the Orcs didn't care that they had to fight on the same side as Dwarves, even though they hated them as well. They just told Azoun "tell us who to kill, and when" - to me, that sounds like the PERFECT soldier. Seriously, I've come across dozens of cases where Orcs have gotten along with their human neighbors, and even inter-married with them! Most recently in my research of the Lands of Intrigue, where Orcs were kept as slaves by the Shoon Imperium, and gained their freedom along side the indigenous humans. Since then, if an Orc behaves himself, he's welcome in town with no problems. The same goes for other areas, like the Unapproachable East and the Vilhon Reach. Only in the North have the wild Mountain Orcs continued along their ancient barbarian traditions... but then again, so have the humans! The Anghardt, Renghardt, Reghedmen (Ten Towns region), Gur of the Tunlands and The Ride, etc... all behave exactly as the Orcs do! Why are the human barbarians forgiveable, but orcs are not? Remember, 26,000+ years ago, men were little more then beasts - did that give the more sophisticated races the right to exterminate them? If anything, humans probably owe their survival to Dragons! If early humans hadn't been 'domesticated' and taught the ways of civilizations as part of the Dragon Empires, the Elves, Dwarves, and everyone else would have wiped them out millenia ago. And even today, the Orcs and Barbarians of the north still intermingle, and many tribes have half-orcs in them. The Orcs, IN CANON, have always given what they have gotten, and when treated decently, are actually VERY noble. Sounds stupid? Orcs DO NOT backstab or betray - if they do not like you, they tell you to your face. There is NO duplicity on their part - something Elves cannot say - and they are what they are. When an Orc gives his word, he means it. Perhaps it is because they are too stupid to be sneaky, or more likely, its because an Orc's honor is truly the only thing he has. If an Orc wants to kill you, he'll let you know - I'd rather have an honest barbarian at my front, then stealthy humans or Elves at my back. This is Obould's dream - he knows the truth... he knows what his people are capable of. In that short story in Realms of the Elves, Drizzt is amazed at how fast the Orcs are building fortifications, and how well-regimented and disciplined the Orcs are. The Orcs are co-operating BETTTER from tribe-to-tribe, then the humans were able to town-to-town! For the first time, Drizzt sees the Orcs as more then just mindless brutes. So, I can point to CANON stories where both Elminster and Drizzt realize there is more to Orcs then folks believe, and those two guys are the ones we were promised would live to 4e FR. Coincidence? I think not.... ;)
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:29 PM	You guys. For all this arguing, you all have to remember that the vast majority of the orc population are still CE hordes of rampaging monsters that adventurers can destroy. Obould's kingdom came to fruition more out of the fear and charisma that the Obould kings inspired in their subjects than actual willingness to cooperate with their traditional enemies. Hey, if everyone thinks he is Gruumsh and he has proven that his path works, what can they do about it? The orcs may be true to their nature, but they are also true to their religion. Also, we haven't even scratched the surface of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows true purpose yet, if it actually is Gruumsh supporting it, as I suspect, the purpose may be more insidious than we suspect.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:40 PM	Are you guys saying that surface races are less capable of amicable relations then the evil subterranean ones? :uh-huh: -There are less 'sentient' races in the Underdark that randomly loot and pillage because they can. Most things that do that in the Underdark are solitary, and normally simply 'monsters' (Hook Horrors, for example.) ...but the Orcs troops that join him later follow orders BETTER then most of the human troops! -As most of the war is still 'shrouded in mystery', being undetailed, you cannot quantify that. Did that give the more sophisticated races the right to exterminate them? -If they were attacked by them, yes. This entails random encounters that turn violent, resisting imperialism and expansion... The Orcs, IN CANON, have always given what they have gotten, and when treated decently, are actually VERY noble. -As most 'Orcish politics' are unilluminated, you cannot quantify that. So, I can point to CANON stories where both Elminster and Drizzt realize there is more to Orcs then folks believe, and those two guys are the ones we were promised would live to 4e FR. -Sure, there is more to them than being savage, mostly evil brutes. But, that doesn't change the fact that they are savage, mostly evil brutes. Hitler was a painter, as well as an evil dictator. Kim Jong Ill is a cinema buff, as well as an evil dictator. Juan Peron was a 'union guy' (which, theoretically, is a good thing, though I dislike unions), as well as an evil dictator. And so on... -In the end, and I am sure there are thousands and thousands out there who will agree, Orc simply are evil, that's it. No amount of flourishes, being Politically Correct, smudging, and so on is going to change what is deeply ingrained in our RPG consciousness'.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 12:45 PM	- -In the end, and I am sure there are thousands and thousands out there who will agree, Orc simply are evil, that's it. No amount of flourishes, being Politically Correct, smudging, and so on is going to change what is deeply ingrained in our RPG consciousness'. And it is that bread-and-butter good/evil mentality that has driven so many open-minded young gamers away from FR.:(
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:02 PM	And it is that bread-and-butter good/evil mentality that has driven so many open-minded young gamers away from FR.:( -And, you don't have any numbers to quanitify that, either.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 01:09 PM	-And, you don't have any numbers to quanitify that, either. It's just a funny feeling I have, and I have learned to trust my instincts.
msatran 02-03-08, 01:39 PM	Yes, and Khelben has absolute authority over them. Remember, the Moonstars have no authority to act on their own. Individual members have far less autonomity than typical Harpers who more or less are allowed to create their missions as they go along. If Khel doesn't tell them to go against the Orc Horde, they will not get involved. Not that the Moonstars would necessarilly be able to do anything. Again, gods are involved and Obould was unable to be killed by Drizzt. Unless Khel and Larael is there, I'm pretty sure that all Moonstars would fail if they tried to stop him. Malchor Harpell is an archmage in the Moonstars who could do it by himself. This is a man whose common tactics include cloudkilling entire fortresses until there's nothing left inside, and casting Polymorph Any Object to turn various terrain features into monstrous threats. I really think you are seriously underestimating what happens once archmages, high priests who can cast miracle, and other similar people get involved. You may not regularly play the game at this level of play, but I frequently do, and let me tell you, sir, that one Archmage could rain 400x400 stone blocks on the Orcs until they were dead, and there would really be very little they could do about it, if a player character REALLY put their mind to it. The new big legend would be "The Mystery of the Giant Cubes," but it could be done, without casting a single epic enchantment. Once you're running Mind Blank, Greater Invisibility, Fly, Stoneskin, and all those other good things, all you have to do is take a jar of pebbles out of your pocket and throw 400x400 foot cubes at them. All Wizards get Scribe Scroll for free, so you can pretty much do this for a minimum XP cost at a rate of 1 per round. And it really will look like giant rocks falling from the sky. There isn't an orc in Obould's army that can make the Spot check of 90 if he's 400 feet up. Khelben can freely commandeer enough greater silent spell rods to be effective from the Waterdeep Armory. And if your weapon is a mountain size rock, Most of the Orcs will die before they put their armor on. Granted, this is not saying they'll all be together in one place, gathering them might be a little tough, but you know, Orcs aren't that smart, so fooling them won't be too hard. I really try and run a world where there's no such thing as an NPC, but the truth of the matter is that if that's the case, you can't allow NPC's to be dumb. Is this a blatant extaggeration and a total mechanical kludge, yes, but using only the spells in the PHB, it is possible for a smart archmage to annihilate entire armies. That's kind of the point of high level characters to begin with. Plus, you're assuming that the PC's in my game are not as smart, powerful, and tough as Drizzt and know how to work as a team. A lot of them are and they frequently do. My players are just as smart, only a little less twinky, and they work as a team. If they really want to Kill Obould and his generals, they'll get it done.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 01:44 PM	I agree with msatran, if this was a normal situation then yes a few archmages would easily lay waste to 150,000 orcs. But Obould's very existance throws a wrench into those plans. Remember, the Chosen of Mystra aren't the only chosen involved in this.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 02:23 PM	But Obould's very existance throws a wrench into those plans. Remember, the Chosen of Mystra aren't the only chosen involved in this. -Well, Obould isn't necessarily a Chosen of Gruumsh. If he was, at any point, he isn't anymore, as his most chronologically recent stats (FRCS/Silver Marches) do not mention any sort of 'Chosen of Gruumsh' power boosts, unless they are already factored into his stats (which aren't that impressive to begin with). But, thus are the problems with retroactivley changing a character, as was the case with Obould.
msatran 02-03-08, 02:30 PM	I agree with msatran, if this was a normal situation then yes a few archmages would easily lay waste to 150,000 orcs. But Obould's very existance throws a wrench into those plans. Remember, the Chosen of Mystra aren't the only chosen involved in this. I completely disagree. If your goal is to remove an enemy's military power, killing his army is just as effective as killing him. Sure, they might disperse if you kill him. But really, if they're dead, they're dispersed. Plus, it is made abundantly clear in the text of Salvatore's Writing is that "Obould is Gruumsh" is propaganda. He was not, nor was he ever, the Chosen of Gruumsh. The drow armor that augmented his stats and protected him a bucketload? I think EVERY PC in the WORLD wants a suit of armor like that one, though.
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 03:34 PM	-And, you don't have any numbers to quanitify that, either.Yes... yes we do. 10,000 million people play WoW - and more then half of them play Horde. ;) Doesn't really matter what you think or who is right here (even though I have proven time and again that Orcs are NOT always aggressive), the next generation thinks Orc are fun, and Eberron painting them as a 'lost race with Druidic traditions' didn't help matters much. Good Orcs are here to stay, like it or not, and since 4e is aimed at 'the kiddies', then "Good Orcs" is what we shall get. This edition isn't for the old school people who entered dungeons to slay Orcs and save the princess, this edition is for people who PLAY Orcs, and ransom the human Princess back to her people. :P
XHereticX 02-03-08, 04:57 PM	I completely disagree. If your goal is to remove an enemy's military power, killing his army is just as effective as killing him. Sure, they might disperse if you kill him. But really, if they're dead, they're dispersed. Plus, it is made abundantly clear in the text of Salvatore's Writing is that "Obould is Gruumsh" is propaganda. He was not, nor was he ever, the Chosen of Gruumsh. The drow armor that augmented his stats and protected him a bucketload? I think EVERY PC in the WORLD wants a suit of armor like that one, though. Well, if you have a better explanation for the existance of The Kingdom of Many-Arrows for 100 years with a huge growth in prosperity besides your senseless tirades against WoTC I would just love to hear it.:rolleyes: My theory is based upon what has been done and I'm trying to make the most logical assumption I can. I am not saying that The Kingdom of Many-Arrows by law of Realmslore could have existed without being wiped out or reverting to their old warlike ways, but it happened, and there is nothing we can do about it. Like MT63 said, whether you like it or not, good orcs are here to stay.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 06:39 PM	Its kind of hard to be nice to demihumans, when they've spent the last 30,000 years hunting your kind like animals. That's because they are animals.:P Having read the Orc King novel, my opinion is that the orc kingdom was inserted into the Realms to make a (heavy-handed) point regarding war vs. peace and "ending the cycle of violence".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 06:48 PM	This is Obould's dream - he knows the truth... he knows what his people are capable of. Obould may be intelligent, but he is indeed a brute. He's not a good example of a kindly, peace-loving orc.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 06:53 PM	Good Orcs are here to stay, like it or not, and since 4e is aimed at 'the kiddies', then "Good Orcs" is what we shall get. This edition isn't for the old school people who entered dungeons to slay Orcs and save the princess, this edition is for people who PLAY Orcs, and ransom the human Princess back to her people. :P So in other words, they AREN'T good.
XHereticX 02-03-08, 07:17 PM	Obould may be intelligent, but he is indeed a brute. He's not a good example of a kindly, peace-loving orc. No he is not, he is an orc that loves power and glory. Everything he has done was so that he would be forever remembered in the history books as the king that changed the destiny of his people. I'm suprised so many people are still posting, I thought you Americans loved your Superbowls.;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 07:23 PM	No he is not, he is an orc that loves power and glory. Everything he has done was so that he would be forever remembered in the history books as the king that changed the destiny of his people. I'm suprised so many people are still posting, I thought you Americans loved your Superbowls.;) I'm not someone who follows sports, for the most part.:)
XHereticX 02-03-08, 07:26 PM	I'm not someone who follows sports, for the most part.:) Neither am I (even though I will wait for results since I somewhat support the Pats). I think I'll watch Trinity Blood tonight instead:D
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 09:07 PM	There's a sporting event on today? :confused: ;) :P So in other words, they AREN'T good. No, not good... but at least neutral... which is really what almost any race should be. Individuals can have alignments, and some races may lean more heavily towrd one alignment then the other, but every race should run the full gambit of alignments to be realistic. Doesn't an Illithid scholar work at Candlekeep? ;) That doesn't mean you should trust every Illithid you meet... or Dark Elf, or Orc... but the same can be said about humans. Most humans you run into on the open road are probably brigands, and they'll treat you no better then Orcs would. But by the same token, you shouldn't just kill people - yes, PEOPLE, because they can speak and communicate intelligently - on sight because most of them just plain suck. Thats called predjudism, and its why we end up with things like the Holocaust and 9/11. Kill an Orc today, and you'll be killing them everyday for the rest of your life. Help an Orc, and you just may make yourself a friend that will save your life someday. The only thing I don't understand is how this new 'PC' attitude toward Orcs (and perhaps Drow) meshes with 4e, when they are clearly downgrading all threats to just 'monster kills'. While on the one hand the game seems to be growing into something very mature, on the other it sounds like its being 'dumbed down' for children to play. I'm not sure how the concepts can possibly be reconciled - but then again, WoW does it. Also, Rinon, theres a HUGE difference between Orcs saving a princess from some Trolls, and ransoming her back to her parents, then the Orcs sitting down to dine with the Trolls. ;) Thats the difference between monsters, and people. I would NEVER call a troll a person (common garden variety, anyway), because they have NO redeeming qualities. But in CANON, Orcs have proven helpful on numerous occasions.
GothicDan 02-03-08, 10:14 PM	My fraternity had a fun superbowl party. It was good times.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 11:23 PM	Thats called predjudism... -Prejusice, not prejudicism. ;) :P Kill an Orc today, and you'll be killing them everyday for the rest of your life. Help an Orc, and you just may make yourself a friend that will save your life someday. -Or an Orc that'll just kill you tomorrow, when he and his friends raid your village. Thats the difference between monsters, and people. I would NEVER call a troll a person (common garden variety, anyway), because they have NO redeeming qualities. But in CANON, Orcs have proven helpful on numerous occasions. -Oh, so Orcs are people but Trolls aren't? Trolls are simply acting in aggression because, for all of their lives, they are treated with aggression. Maybe, if everyone was nicer to Trolls. After all, the Trolls featured in The Hunter's Blade trilogy were simply lashing out at Nesme and the other villages in the North because they are treated with violence and aggression for all of their lives. You can't blame them...;)
Kenzuki 02-03-08, 11:30 PM	Obould may be intelligent, but he is indeed a brute. He's not a good example of a kindly, peace-loving orc. Thrall is the best model for what Obould could hope to become. Raised by humans in the art of war and tactics, who later discovers his proud lineage and leads his people from bondage into a shining new future. Plus he's a level 28 character so he pretty much is more imposing than Obould is :D
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 12:12 AM	Here's my in-game summary of the "Innate Evil of Orcs in the Realms" http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15003138&postcount=43
Priamon 02-04-08, 12:47 AM	Mark's rants are like 300% better than mine. :twitch: But he's bringing across the point I was aiming towards. Races should be viewed as neutral. Everything has a purpose and a reason there doing something. Saying that orcs are Chaotic Evil. and then putting a couple million on a planet is stupid. Is something is evil the rest of the population is going to deal with it.
Priamon 02-04-08, 12:50 AM	Here's my in-game summary of the "Innate Evil of Orcs in the Realms" http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15003138&postcount=43 Your group is really intertaining. you should start a thread with just clips of your gaming sessions. Only the good ones though. its like... a Faerunian Penny arcade.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:55 AM	Races should be viewed as neutral. -Certain creatures are evil because their society teaches them to be evil. Some creatures are evil because of their very own innate natures.
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 01:04 AM	Is something is evil the rest of the population is going to deal with it. It's the problem. "Evil" doesn't mean that you screw over your own people. Orcs for the most part go forth and pillage, plunder, murder FOREIGNERS. Which is a time honored tradition amongst humans.
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 01:28 AM	I think the issue is a lot like Cardassians. You're rarely going to see Cardassian children running around and playing. 99.99% of Cardassians you encounter in your Next Generation game will be utter *****s. Yet, no one automatically assumes Cardassians are innately evil. Vs. say, Deep Ones. Contrast the Cardassians against another set of Space Nazis in Daleks or the Borg. See, two very different tones. __________________
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 01:43 AM	-Prejusice, not prejudicism. ;) :P Are you being a grammar-bigot? :P -Or an Orc that'll just kill you tomorrow, when he and his friends raid your village. I have never read of an instance in FR where an Orc betrayed someone's trust. In all honesty, there are very few instances where people have given an Orc their trust, but when given it, they perform within the best of their abilities to live up to their obligations. -Oh, so Orcs are people but Trolls aren't? Trolls are simply acting in aggression because, for all of their lives, they are treated with aggression. Maybe, if everyone was nicer to Trolls. After all, the Trolls featured in The Hunter's Blade trilogy were simply lashing out at Nesme and the other villages in the North because they are treated with violence and aggression for all of their lives. You can't blame them...;)No... Trolls EAT other sentients, and are therefore EVIL. You can't be friends with someone who thinks of you as 'lunch'. Orcs have been known to occasionally turn to canibalism to avoid starvation - but so, too, have humans. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 01:57 AM	Are you being a grammar-bigot? :P -Technically, I don't even think that's grammar. You were making up your own word. :P I have never read of an instance in FR where an Orc betrayed someone's trust. In all honesty, there are very few instances where people have given an Orc their trust, but when given it, they perform within the best of their abilities to live up to their obligations. -The absence of evidence is not the absence of truth. Orcs as a whole are Chaotic Evil. Chaos does not lend itself very well to trust. No... Trolls EAT other sentients, and are therefore EVIL. You can't be friends with someone who thinks of you as 'lunch'. Orcs have been known to occasionally turn to canibalism to avoid starvation - but so, too, have humans. ;) -Trolls eat sentients...So do Orcs. They eat each other, they eat Humans, Elves...
msatran 02-04-08, 02:53 AM	Orc dietary habits are legendary for the eating of humans. It's been canon in the Realms for YEARS. And actually, it's not "Prejudice." It's survival. If I know that this group of creatures breeds faster than me and eats my race for breakfast, I will kill that group of creatures so that I am not eaten. The problem is that you can't change these sorts of views overnight, and realistically, in a world loaded with high level adventurers, those who fight back against the Orcs can take care of the orcs and remove them before the merciful orc loving folk are even aware of it, leaving them to discover "The Mystery of the Giant Cubes."
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 03:06 AM	So... I suppose all those comercials in Evermeet that said "Orc, the other white meat" was okay, huh? :mad: I actually don't recall a single instance of an Orc in FR lore eating someone. Maybe I'm reading the wrong novels (or the right ones), but I always see Orcs portrayed as 'noble savages'. Even Elminster scoffs at the idea of an Orc eating a human child in EiMD - and as we all know, El is the wisest man in the world. ;) ALL races eat their own when starving - even Elves! Just read the original 2e DotU. A troll doesn't do it as a matter of survival (after all, its IMPOSSIBLE for them to starve to death), they do it because it's fun. If an Orc is forced to eat a human for some reason (and like I said, I've never read that), I doubt very much he'd enjoy it. Orcs have SEX with humans, for gods-sakes! You don't go around eating the person you just got jiggy with.
msatran 02-04-08, 03:22 AM	So... I suppose all those comercials in Evermeet that said "Orc, the other white meat" was okay, huh? :mad: I actually don't recall a single instance of an Orc in FR lore eating someone. Maybe I'm reading the wrong novels (or the right ones), but I always see Orcs portrayed as 'noble savages'. Even Elminster scoffs at the idea of an Orc eating a human child in EiMD - and as we all know, El is the wisest man in the world. ;) ALL races eat their own when starving - even Elves! Just read the original 2e DotU. A troll doesn't do it as a matter of survival (after all, its IMPOSSIBLE for them to starve to death), they do it because it's fun. If an Orc is forced to eat a human for some reason (and like I said, I've never read that), I doubt very much he'd enjoy it. Orcs have SEX with humans, for gods-sakes! You don't go around eating the person you just got jiggy with. Such relationships are rare. For the most part, Half-Orcs are created with other half orcs, when a human has a thing for a particularly human looking half orc, or when a half orc is part of an orc tribe. For the most part, what an orc from a culture that worships Gruumsh calls sex, a human in their right mind would call rape. I don't find the argument persuasive.
Priamon 02-04-08, 03:35 AM	Define "evil." Really. Is raiding evil? Is raiding evil if you have to do it to survive? Is raiding evil if you do it to attain status in your society? Is raiding Chaotic or Lawful? .... How did this thread turn into a huge debate of alignement? Its completely interesting and entertaining to debate with people and read about it, but is was supposed to be about the Dragon features: Count down to the Realms... Anyhow back to the point I was going to make. Who gets to decide what is evil and what is good? I bring this up cause it all matters to a point of perspective. Do the orcs view themselves as evil? What about, by contrast, Demons? Or a group of monks that promote pacifism in the face of a threatening enemy? If in the Orcs society, raiding and pillaging is a rite of passage, a sign of maturing, is that evil? To the people getting pillaged... Probably. To the parents of the orc and the rest of his fellows, not so much. So if an Orc cleric of Gruumsh casts "detect alignment" on an orc, does it show up as evil? or good? What about a Cleric of Helm casting "Detect Alignment" on an Orc? Now, say the orcs are from a Mountain Tribe. Above them in the peaks live a Tribe of Giants, and above them is a Pitfiend Demon. So the Demon Kills off Giant warriors that try to get rid of him because the Demon keeps stealing everything they make and produce and all of there giant bebies, and can't cause there numbers are too few to combat a Powerful evil like that. They slowly get killed off. In order to keep their tribe around and functioning they send a few young giants down to the Orc tribe to raid it for food. The orcs can't deal with these giants. They start raiding the Village in the valley at the foot of the mountain for yet more food. The village calls up their local lord or nobel. They form a small army and march up and destroy whats left of the Orcs. Meanwhile the Pit fiend has dessimated the Giants. The volcano is cooling down and he doesn't like cold bathes so he picks up and leaves. So the orcs are gone, the giants are gone, the pit fiend is gone. The Humans go back to farming and some kid decides that farming sucks. Grabs his sack and moves on to the next town where he discovers he has a voice of gold and sings the tale of the Evil orc empire and how the Town of whos-its-ville grabbed all there pitchforks and went up the mountain to throw the mighty Orc chieftan to the crows. Who is Evil? and who was good? Why would you try and figure that out even? whats the point. If your one of the Humans, your pretty sure the orcs were evil. If your an orc, your pretty sure both Humans and giants are evil. If your the Giants you know the Pit fiend is evil and the orcs are weak. if your the pitfiend you don't care.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 03:42 AM	So... I suppose all those comercials in Evermeet that said "Orc, the other white meat" was okay, huh? :mad: -Oddly enough, I don't recall ever seeing any of those. Must be Kingdom of Obould propaganda. ;) ALL races eat their own when starving - even Elves! Just read the original 2e DotU. -Drow are hardly Elves. Thems fightin' words. :P A troll doesn't do it as a matter of survival (after all, its IMPOSSIBLE for them to starve to death)... -Is it? Even in a world enriched with magic, all creatures and species would still need to maintain certain basic minumums in order to guarantee their own survival, and the survival of their species. While it's been a while now, the points I still remember are: procreation, homeostasis, locomotion, synthesizing materials into usable energy (Adenacine Triphosphate [ATP])- eating. Orcs have SEX with humans, for gods-sakes! You don't go around eating the person you just got jiggy with. -I'm fairly sure that most unions aren't very concentual by both parties.
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 04:01 AM	And actually, it's not "Prejudice." It's survival. If I know that this group of creatures breeds faster than me and eats my race for breakfast, I will kill that group of creatures so that I am not eaten. Yes, that's pretty much the definition of the Neutral Response. Neutrals don't question why Orcs are there, they ask mostly the question of "Do we fight, flee, or pray they don't attack us because we're too strong ourselves." The problem is that you can't change these sorts of views overnight, and realistically, in a world loaded with high level adventurers, those who fight back against the Orcs can take care of the orcs and remove them before the merciful orc loving folk are even aware of it, leaving them to discover "The Mystery of the Giant Cubes." And that's the irony of it all. The CCC are clearly an adventuring party. It's a Dwarf Fighter, and Elf Wizard, and I think a human being going into an orc place to slaughter them for the greater good....and :censored: DRIZZT goes and kills them. and let's face it, in my Mongrelman Party, it's a glorious irony when the High Level Adventurers go forth to kill other High Level Adventurers to protect Orc Kind. *breaks Staff of Magus* "SEE YOU IN HELL, KHELBEN!" Just like a Bunch of Liches and Sauron-types will be unable to wipe out humanity, so too will heroes protect Orc Kind from the depredations of Elven Archmages. But yes, you'd have the Priests of Lathander and Tyr faced up against the Priests of Helm and Siamorphe in a battle to the death over their nominal enemies. Define "evil." Really. Is raiding evil? Is raiding evil if you have to do it to survive? Is raiding evil if you do it to attain status in your society? Is raiding Chaotic or Lawful? .... How did this thread turn into a huge debate of alignement? Its completely interesting and entertaining to debate with people and read about it, but is was supposed to be about the Dragon features: Count down to the Realms... Anyhow back to the point I was going to make. Who gets to decide what is evil and what is good? I bring this up cause it all matters to a point of perspective. Do the orcs view themselves as evil? What about, by contrast, Demons? Or a group of monks that promote pacifism in the face of a threatening enemy? I tend to think that Orcs tend to use different words for what humans and elves use. If an Orc Casts Detect Evil on a person, he's more often probably casting the equivalent of "Detect Strength and Ruthlessness." Likewise, if he's casting Detect Good, he's probably asking "Detect Weakness and Weak Stomach." Which has probably always confused the Orcs as Elves and Humans can be extremely hardass. I actually don't recall a single instance of an Orc in FR lore eating someone. Maybe I'm reading the wrong novels (or the right ones), but I always see Orcs portrayed as 'noble savages'. :confused: Now, I'm arguing with both sides. There's nothing "noble" about Orc Savagery. No, they're just savages. They're a ruthless bunch of plundering, murdering, and killing scum. Likewise, I say the exact same thing about the Tuigan Horde who are just as big a collection of scum as Orc-kind. Except, Orcs tend to be more poverty stricken and eat their enemies post raid. For the most part, what an orc from a culture that worships Gruumsh calls sex, a human in their right mind would call rape. I think that's overstating the issue. In some campaigns, Orcs are barely above animals and are Stone Age Cavemen. In the Forgotten Realms, Orcs are much more Vikings in terms of cultural development in they use weaponry and domesticated mounts (Wargs) As Gruumsh's Pantheon shows, the Orcs also have a female Goddess that has beloved sons. But yes, I imagine Orcs take back slaves all the time for their own amusment (I'd say male and female). They're a repulsive race for the most part....but so are the Cardassians. Really, Zhentil Keep is EVERY BIT AS BAD AS Orc culture. In Orc Culture as I do it, an Orc who wants a mate can just challenge the guy and kill him. That obviously makes them evil. Except, same thing in the 'heroic' Fremen in Dune.
GothicDan 02-04-08, 10:06 AM	The Fremen were heroic?
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 10:30 AM	They were the protagionists' fun culture.
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 11:01 AM	The following was attributed to me, but it was msatran who said it - For the most part, what an orc from a culture that worships Gruumsh calls sex, a human in their right mind would call rape.Lies... all lies. Its what the farmer's wife tells him when the baby comes out green. ;) I'm going to find the relevant passages in the various CANON sources that say that Orcs and Humans inter-marry willingly - sure, some half-orcs may be products of rape, but I can gaurantee you that there are FAR more humans that are products of rape then there are Half-Orcs... perhaps we should just kill all the humans then? :ahem: I've had this argument before, and I'm tired of it. Of course there are 'Savage Orcs', just like there are Savage Humans, Savage Dwarves (Chult), Savage Elves (most Grugach and the Poscadar Elves of Anchorome), Ghostwise Halflings, etc... Obould and his forebears held Keep Many Arrows for many years without attacking any human settlements. When a Horde of savage Orcs came out of the Mountains, it was Obould and HIS PEOPLE who moved to STOP IT - it's CANON, look it up! While the Orcs of Many Arrows were busily repelling an Orc Horde (and therefore defending the WHOLE of the north), the sneaky little Dwarves snuck into HIS citadel and locked him out! Obould's Orcs are different then most Northern Orcs, in that they have a history of being 'good neighbors'. He had every right to be upset with the other peoples of the north, who rather then come to his aid against the horde, decided to throw him and his out of their home. And out of every race on Toril, which one tried to end the Crown Wars by attacking BOTH sides during a battle? ;) -Drow are hardly Elves. Thems fightin' words. :P Only in 4e - It's nice to see that you too can embrace the aspects of 4e that are useful to you. :P
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 11:18 AM	Yes, I tend to think Barbarians and Orcs probably intermarry quite frequently.
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 11:39 AM	According to the original The North supplement, barbarian humans and Orcs did NOT differentiate between themselves racially, only tribally, and sometimes humans would assist an Orc tribe who was having difficulty with another human tribe, or vice-versa - allegiances were tribal, NOT racial, and the two groups inter-bred frequently with friendly tribes. When Wulfgar's people, the Reghedmen Barbarians, attacked Ten Towns, in what way were they acting ANY different then Orcs? :confused: The Netherese are decended from these barabrians - should the Elves have wiped them out early on, rather then trying to work with them? Personally, I would say yes, because the Netherese were probably one of the worst groups that ever appeared on Faerûn, but if they did, then we wouldn't have all that cool history associated with them. ;) Dwarves and Elves gave Humans a chance - its just that Humans evolved faster then Orcs (probably with outside help) - so its only fitting that Humans in their turn give Orcs a chance. I'm not even sure if Orcs weren't already highly evolved (they had some early Kingdoms), but were thrown back into barbarism for whatever reason. Perhaps, like the Ogres of Krynn, the Orcs are a devolved form of an ancient, noble race. Maybe the Ondonti are all that are left of the 'True' Orcs, and they are sad for their fallen brethren. Any of you old enough to remember Land of the Lost? Remember Enik the Altrusian? He was a highly evolved Sauroid, and at first it appeared that he was some sort of 'future version' of the primitive Sleestak, but it turns out that he was a 'throw-back' - the last intelligent member of a once great race. I wrote a short story in highschool about evil alien invaders... in the end, the twist was that the humans were the 'bad guys'. You need to think outside the box, people - if you want to be a good DM, you need to think like a monster thinks. A brute that just sits around a dungeon room waiting for someone to open a door is ridiculous - shouldn't the creature have his own hopes and dreams? Even if its as simple as "I hope they serve halfling stew in the mess hall today", at least you now have some idea of what he's about. If you just treat monsters as a stat-block to kill, then you are no better then the 4e design team. :(
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 12:26 PM	Only in 4e - It's nice to see that you too can embrace the aspects of 4e that are useful to you. :P -I was being 'in-character', but are you telling me that Drow actually aren't Elves anymore? :uh-huh: -Oh, wait, the entire "Eladrin are not Elves, Elves are not Drow, Drow are not Eladrin" thing? I wrote a short story in highschool about evil alien invaders... in the end, the twist was that the humans were the 'bad guys'. -I'm pretty sure there was a Twilight Zone episode like that. Aliens came to Earth, promising to take us to a better place, cure our diseases, and so on, and eventually, in our paranoia, we kill the group of Martians, who turned out to be telling the truth the entire time.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 01:33 PM	Also, Rinon, theres a HUGE difference between Orcs saving a princess from some Trolls, and ransoming her back to her parents, then the Orcs sitting down to dine with the Trolls. ;) I just thought it was strange how you talked about people playing orcs who are good, then used an example of them ransoming somebody...hence, my comment.:) Oh yeah, and I DID end up watching the Super Bowl.:cool:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 01:36 PM	Thrall is the best model for what Obould could hope to become. Raised by humans in the art of war and tactics, who later discovers his proud lineage and leads his people from bondage into a shining new future. Plus he's a level 28 character so he pretty much is more imposing than Obould is :D And he's in a different setting...;) Sorry, but I just had to say that. I don't see much similarity between the two characters, myself, other than the fact that they promote unity and organization. Remember, too, that as per the Hunter's Blades novels, Obould WAS the aggressor. And before someone says that he was being "used" by outside parties: he could have said "no". As I recall, he was pretty happy to go to war. Again, not a good example of the best an orc can be (morally).
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 01:43 PM	For me, I like my orcs as fundamentally tragic villains. Orcs are the abused kids of the Major Races. Their father, Gruumsh, is pretty much the worst 'father' imaginable. He beat his children from day one, told them to go bully everyone else, and turned them into a bunch of monsters whom have systematically passed down those beliefs from the very beginning. What's best to remember is that while the Orcs probably have deserved it because they've acted like scum from the beginning, they also live in squallor. The united and good races have, until recently, pretty much forced orcs to live in clannish society where they've got nothing but a hunter-gatherer/raider existence. Gruumsh may think the Orcs will someday rise and drive out the Elves but the fact is that they have nothing to show for most of their existence on Faerun thanks to their god and X thousand years of cultural inertia driving them into endless race war after race war with their frequently more powerful neighbors. If you killed Gruumsh tommorrow then then 90% of Orcs would convert to Talos. Another 9% would convert to Bane. Something distinctly similar to the idea if the Drow would be much better off without Lolth or whether Shar would just step in. If someone wiped out their entire species tomorrow then, in the context of the Realms, the planet would be a better place. It's really not an adventurers duty to take responsibility for raising a new Orcish race from the :censored: that they currently are (and they are BAD people). Yet, the POTENTIAL exists for something better and more philosophical PCs may say "Do I have the right?" http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q172/Jamie-Valentine/Captions/Picture6.jpg
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 02:17 PM	-I'm pretty sure there was a Twilight Zone episode like that. Aliens came to Earth, promising to take us to a better place, cure our diseases, and so on, and eventually, in our paranoia, we kill the group of Martians, who turned out to be telling the truth the entire time. Wait--was that the one where "To Serve Man" was a COOKBOOK!?:gah:
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 02:29 PM	Actually, in my story, it was the Earthers who had landed on another world. You don't find out until the very end that the 'townsfolk' are green. ;) Of course, 20 years later, Futurama stole my plot. Frye: "You mean this is their home planet? we're the evil invading aliens?" Meh - they were just 'balls' anyway. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 02:31 PM	There is a Twilight Zone episode wherein the tiny space invaders who terrorize a poor farm woman turn out to be from Earth (!).
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 03:22 PM	Wait--was that the one where "To Serve Man" was a COOKBOOK!?:gah: -I know which one you are talking about (from the Simpsons, of course! ;)), but no, I don't think so. I don't know what the episode was called, but more or less, aliens came from Mars, and told the UN that they would take us back to Mars, where we would all live in happiness and harmony. Some people wanted to go, and some didn't, as they didn't trust the aliens. Some time passes, and eventually, someone attacks the aliens. They flee, but in the end, it turns out that they weren't lying, and that they were going to bring us to a utopian world.
MarkusTay63 02-04-08, 04:52 PM	Screw them, and their stupid Utopia... :ahem: ;) :P
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 05:59 PM	Screw them, and their stupid Utopia... :ahem: -Eh, it probably sucked, anyway. Who'd want to live on Mars? In a few ten thousand years, on of their two moons is going to complete it's corkscrew orbit, and smash into the planet.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 07:42 PM	-Eh, it probably sucked, anyway. Who'd want to live on Mars? I know, it's too cold.
Charles Phipps 02-04-08, 09:28 PM	Life on Mars is very enjoyable. Sure, the Detectives are all sexist bigots but the girl is cute and every day is exciting so long as you're not just in a coma.
Lord Karsus 02-04-08, 11:32 PM	Life on Mars is very enjoyable. Sure, the Detectives are all sexist bigots but the girl is cute and every day is exciting so long as you're not just in a coma. -I'm not getting it. Unless, if memory serves, Life on Mars is a television show... EDIT: Yes, yes it is/was. Go me.
MarkusTay63 02-06-08, 12:08 AM	Its not about Mars at all. :confused: I never could understand British TV. :rolleyes: Except Doctor Who, of course.
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 01:20 AM	Except Doctor Who, of course. -I only saw a few episodes of Dr. Who, the new ones. They were pretty good. -Maybe the New Realms can take a lesson from Dr. Who. Changes don't need to be so dramatic, or something like that. Dr. Who is changing all the time, and there is not very much attention paid to that.
Dark Wizard 02-06-08, 01:37 AM	-I only saw a few episodes of Dr. Who, the new ones. They were pretty good. -Maybe the New Realms can take a lesson from Dr. Who. Changes don't need to be so dramatic, or something like that. Dr. Who is changing all the time, and there is not very much attention paid to that. I watch the show mostly for the characters and the places they visit, which so happen to get really messed up right around when the characters arrive. And the Daleks. Exterminate.
Bluenose 02-06-08, 04:33 AM	Its not about Mars at all. :confused: I never could understand British TV. :rolleyes: It's a David Bowie quote. As is the title of the sequel series, Ashes to Ashes. Except Doctor Who, of course. You should try Blake's Seven as well - all six of them.
BadCatMan 02-06-08, 06:42 AM	-I only saw a few episodes of Dr. Who, the new ones. They were pretty good. -Maybe the New Realms can take a lesson from Dr. Who. Changes don't need to be so dramatic, or something like that. Dr. Who is changing all the time, and there is not very much attention paid to that. Ha! You should see the universe-shaking events. You should see the freaking great Time Wars that utterly destroyed Gallifrey, never to exist again - twice! A fictional world with no canon, loose continuity, middling respect for the old lore. Trust me, FR has had it easy. :D
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 12:11 PM	Ha! You should see the universe-shaking events. You should see the freaking great Time Wars that utterly destroyed Gallifrey, never to exist again - twice! A fictional world with no canon, loose continuity, middling respect for the old lore. Trust me, FR has had it easy. :D -Oh...Like I said, I've only seen a few episodes. I do know, however, that Dr. Who is constantly changing, and apparently no one realizes/cares.
XHereticX 02-06-08, 07:47 PM	Screw them, and their stupid Utopia... :ahem: ;) :P Consitering the idea was created by a moron like Thomas More, I share your sentiments.
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 12:42 PM	-Maybe the New Realms can take a lesson from Dr. Who. Changes don't need to be so dramatic, or something like that. Dr. Who is changing all the time, and there is not very much attention paid to that.Well... maybe they did. We seem to be getting a lot more Xori... Far Realms in FR in 4e, and there was that one episode with the Ood. :P I love the Ood - basically Illithids with a lobotomy. :D
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 12:30 AM	-If I got $.10 for every time I heard someone mention the Far Realms...
Dark Wizard 02-09-08, 01:13 AM	-If I got $.10 for every time I heard someone mention the Far Realms... You'd have enough to hire adventurers to fetch tarresque gizzard for you and then some.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 01:46 AM	You'd have enough to hire adventurers to fetch tarresque gizzard for you and then some. -Meh, been there, done that...Truthfuly, I don't want to go through all that again. ;)
XHereticX 02-09-08, 11:07 AM	-If I got $.10 for every time I heard someone mention the Far Realms... Whoa Karsus, back off, that's my domain. :88E: :coolcthul :behold:
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 11:10 AM	Whoa Karsus, back off, that's my domain. :88E: :coolcthul :behold: -Now you're a Far Realms creature? One week a loyal vassal of Asmodeus, the next week a loyal vassal of me, the next week both, the next week, neither. And, now you are a servant of the Pseudonatural. Eh, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 11:20 AM	-Now you're a Far Realms creature? One week a loyal vassal of Asmodeus, the next week a loyal vassal of me, the next week both, the next week, neither. And, now you are a servant of the Pseudonatural. Eh, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Hehehe, that's all that you think huh....good...keep on thinking that way. You will never know the truth...:cool: My next avatar will give you a hint, watch for it.
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 11:55 AM	Maybe he's a 'Loth with both the Psuedonatural Creature and Shadow templates. ;) uh-oh....... :eek: I think I just created Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell's 'love child'. :(
XHereticX 02-09-08, 12:08 PM	Maybe he's a 'Loth with both the Psuedonatural Creature and Shadow templates. ;) uh-oh....... :eek: I think I just created Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell's 'love child'. :( Technically Lolths don't exist anymore as they are now a subspecies of demon "grumble, grumble," but you're getting closer...
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 12:48 PM	-Slaadi. They're chaotic enough to fit you.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 01:13 PM	-Slaadi. They're chaotic enough to fit you. True, my current residence is in Limbo, but no, not even close.
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 02:39 PM	I think Sladdi have been re-assigned as just the part of the Batrachi that escaped into Limbo... or is that not official yet? :confused: I know a lot of Gray's Compendium work on the Batrachi made it into the GHotR (so much so that he received a 'special mention'), but I'm not sure if that part did. Maybe Heretic's a Githyanki... :eek: Question: Are southern Gith known as Githrebels? :confused:
XHereticX 02-09-08, 02:43 PM	I think Sladdi have been re-assigned as just the part of the Batrachi that escaped into Limbo... or is that not official yet? :confused: I know a lot of Gray's Compendium work on the Batrachi made it into the GHotR (so much so that he received a 'special mention'), but I'm not sure if that part did. Maybe he's a Githyanki... :eek: Question: Are southern Gith known as Githrebels? :confused: If his name was Blue Richardson then he would be a Githyanki. He is most definatly a Githrebel:D Hmm, as far as I know that piece of lore is only official for FR.
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 02:49 PM	Actually, I meant that maybe YOU were a Githyanki... or Githrebel... you did mention living in Limbo... Or do they live in the Astral? :confused: Damn! I'm getting confused now! :crazy:
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 02:55 PM	-Alright, back on topic. -Does anyone know if there's supposed to be, like, a schedule of articles to be released?
XHereticX 02-09-08, 03:56 PM	Actually, I meant that maybe YOU were a Githyanki... or Githrebel... you did mention living in Limbo... Or do they live in the Astral? :confused: Damn! I'm getting confused now! :crazy: No, I am most definatly not a member of that foul lineage known as the Gith... You are thinking inside the box my friends, think about what I have said and done (consorting and using various evil powers for some larger purpose, apparent complacency covering great insidiousness, like I am trying to free something...), and make your judgements... Not that it matters, soon, the multiverse will be mine...:devil:
18DELTA 02-10-08, 12:25 AM	-Alright, back on topic. -Does anyone know if there's supposed to be, like, a schedule of articles to be released? -If they did have some kinda rhyme or reason to their web articles, they sure dont follow it. It just makes me wonder about what will happen when D&Dinsider finally goes online. Because right now I give them a Big :thumbsdow ! Remember in January there was suppost to be an article about the spellplague in 3E. I really dont think the articles they have been putting out are geared towards 3E.:rolleyes: 18DELTA:thumbsdow
MarkusTay63 02-10-08, 12:32 AM	The articles are also nowhere near the length or excellence of the old Dragon articles. If they think that utter cr@p compares to Paizo's mag, they truly have their heads buried iin their respective a..... :embarrass
Charles Phipps 02-10-08, 01:11 AM	I really like Insider.
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 01:32 AM	The articles are also nowhere near the length or excellence of the old Dragon articles. -That is true. DRAGON/DUNGEON were 100-200 page magazines. Every month. Thus far, we've gotten a smattering of articles here and there that, if combined, still wouldn't be enough for an ordinary issue of the printed magazine. -I really wonder why everything seems to be so disjointed, with the CM/CS divide wreaking havoc on the boards, the looming debut of 4e, the end of DRAGON/DUNGEON as a print magazine and the birth of them as online magazines, the creation of that D&D Online program thingy...
18DELTA 02-10-08, 01:35 AM	-Hence the :thumbsdow ! 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 01:43 AM	-I'm just wondering why it's all so disjointed and jumbled. Too much going on at once, perhaps?
MarkusTay63 02-10-08, 11:56 AM	You've heard the expression, "Bitten off more then they can chew"? Well... thats an understatement. :bored: I really like Insider.I like it too, but there's really no way they can call that Dungeon and Dragon magazines. For what it is - FREE game-related info to keep us informed - it does a fair job, but how in the world are those short, poorly written 'articles' in anyway helpful for running games? Most of the articles are about the miniatures game, which they are REALLY pushing, and most of us don't give a rat's a__ about that. Also, we are missing the cartoons, full-page art, fiction, and YES, even the advertisements! I never thought I'd miss ads, but now that I can't hold Dragon in my grubby little hands, I miss it all! :( Be honest, Charles, would you be willing to PAY for that?!
msatran 02-10-08, 12:39 PM	I know I wouldn't. Even the adventures they have published have been kind of substandard.
Charles Phipps 02-10-08, 02:39 PM	Honestly? Yes. I'd pay. Not 5 dollars a magazine but I prefer free content to charging 5 dollars for the magazine.
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 04:19 PM	You've heard the expression, "Bitten off more then they can chew"? -So it seems. Most of the articles are about the miniatures game, which they are REALLY pushing, and most of us don't give a rat's a__ about that. -Yeah, I just noticed that, too. There is a lot on miniatures. You can write 'ass', by the way. ;) Also, we are missing the cartoons, full-page art, fiction, and YES, even the advertisements! -I miss Zoogonia. Funniest. Comicstrip. Ever. -Ads are things that you never appreciate at the time, but appreciate them in retrospect. Every so often, when I have a little money, I order a bunch of comics, such as X-Men, X-Force, Spiderman, Cable, etc. from when I was a kid, in the mid-to-late 90s. One of my favorite things, besides the story, is to read the ads. It's so funny to see coming attraction ads for, say Independence Day, or to see promos teasing the Age of Apacalypse. :) Honestly? Yes. I'd pay. Not 5 dollars a magazine but I prefer free content to charging 5 dollars for the magazine. -They are going to be charging a subscription eventually. When things first debuted, I believe that it was supposed to be in January that the fee was going to be instituted. Obviously, it's the middle of February, so that, like so many other things, hasn't panned out exactly like it was said, but, the point remains, there's going to be a fee. What's probably going to happen is once they finish with the online D&d program thing, then they'll institute a fee for D&D Insider.
MarkusTay63 02-10-08, 04:49 PM	Depending on the toolset they will provide, I may pay for it, but as is, it shows very little promise. Also, most of the 'articles' that have been provided (if you can call a page and a ½ an article) have been nothing more then poorly disguised ads for 4e. :(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 08:22 PM	I think Sladdi have been re-assigned as just the part of the Batrachi that escaped into Limbo... or is that not official yet? :confused: Don't know if this will apply to the Realms, but Worlds and Monsters mentions Slaadi as living in the Elemental Chaos. Githzerai will live in the EC as well.