Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ender 08-20-04, 06:04 AM	So, it is now the Year of Rogue Dragons. And we know that the scaly buggers are starting to go crazy, succumbing to frenzy, gathering in flights. I'm thinking of some dragon encounters--such as cities that the PCs are in suddenly being struck by a flight, and other such fun DM nastiness--and I'm wondering if I should represent the frenzy by altering the dragon's game statistics. For example, I'm pretty sure it has been stated that dragons in a Rage are practically mindless, like rampaging beasts, so this should naturally be reflected in their combat tactics. I.e., straight-forward and unsubtle, even foolish, in their pursuit of destruction. In a lot of ways, I think that a dragon that is not thinking tactically is a lot easier to beat than a dragon who is cunning and has planned for every eventuality. So, would it be unbalancing to slap the dragons with the rage ability? You know, +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves? It makes them a bit more physically imposing, and for the older ones that can tack on dozens of hit points, but it seems a fair trade off for a dragon that is simply bent on wreaking havoc without regard for its own survival. Or should it be given a CR adjustment? What do y'all think?
warlockco 08-20-04, 06:08 AM	This Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288080) has some interesting ideals.
ender 08-20-04, 06:29 AM	Thanks, warlocko. Normally I do search for a relevant thread before I begin a new one--really, I swear--but with the search engine down I didn't feel like manually looking for the right topic. So, thanks for the link. :)
Autosponge 08-21-04, 10:29 AM	The whole purpose of the frenzy (if you read the book) is that the dragons abandon rational thought for bloodlust, thus making themselves vulnerable (since their intelligence is something that makes them far mor formitable than another beast of their size, strength, etc.). The only thing that needs changing IMO is their "morale". They will always fight to the death while in a rage but can otherwise cast spells as normal. There is no indication that they are stronger or more hearty while in a rage.
ender 08-21-04, 06:35 PM	Originally posted by Autosponge The whole purpose of the frenzy (if you read the book) is that the dragons abandon rational thought for bloodlust, thus making themselves vulnerable (since their intelligence is something that makes them far mor formitable than another beast of their size, strength, etc.). The only thing that needs changing IMO is their "morale". They will always fight to the death while in a rage but can otherwise cast spells as normal. There is no indication that they are stronger or more hearty while in a rage. I disagree. I think it is important to realize, first, that most of the dragons you see in the novel are metallics, who are trying very hard to resist the Rage, and are therefore not much affected by it during the first book of the trilogy. (Spoilers) And I would argue that even metallics, when they succumb to the Rage, are incapable of the kind of intellectual effort that (even untuitive, ie sorcerous, spellcasting requires. After all, the Queen's bronzes, when they succumb, are so far gone that they turn on their own riders. (End Spoilers) However, the question of whether a barbarian-like rage ability is appropriate is debatable. To be completely honest, I was thinking that it might be a handy tool just to keep the dragons in question at their official CR and therefore save me the trouble of recaclulating how much of a challenge they are without spellcasting and their usual cunning. Otherwise, I think a purely physical dragon with no regard for its own safety is something less of a challenge. Do you disagree, Autosponge?
Autosponge 08-22-04, 09:15 AM	1. Most of the dragons showing evidence of rage in the first novel are not metallics. 2. Dragons in a rage in the first novel casted spells during an attack. 3. Barbarian rage prevents spell-casting. 4. The only thing that needs to be changed for a raging dragon is the morale. Once enraged, the dragons fight to the death. That was the whole point of the rage. If you claim to have read the book, try again. This time, don't skip over the large groups of words called paragraphs. It's pretty obvious that this is not a barbarian rage. Nothing in the book suggests that the dragons are stronger while in a rage, only that they refuse to back down regardless of the odds against them and don't care who their prey/opponent is as long as it's not a dragon. So no, I don't agree. You've made no case whatsoever for changing CR or altering stats for a raging dragon.
ender 08-23-04, 02:24 AM	Originally posted by Autosponge If you claim to have read the book, try again. This time, don't skip over the large groups of words called paragraphs. (snip) So no, I don't agree. You've made no case whatsoever for changing CR or altering stats for a raging dragon. Hey, there's no need to be like that. I wasn't trying to start an argument, I was having a friendly discussion.
dragonheart 09-04-04, 04:56 PM	Hey, there's no need to be like that. Agreed he was stating his take and you yours both have some validity. in the book one black dragon is indeed casting spells while being a part of a flight. The questions is was it fully affected by the rage? it wasn't clear to me in my reading. I suspect that particularly the evil dragons are quite capable of taking part in a flight before the full "rage" sets in. clearly the bronzes were not casting spells after the first had used a spell to place them all (including himself he discovered) into full rage so their may be a range of possibilities. THe idea of using a barbarian's rage adjustments for full rage as a balance to the loss of spells seems reasonable to me as a means of handling this w/o too many recalculations of CR.
WizO_BigSister 09-04-04, 06:50 PM	Time to remind people about the golden rule “It is ok to disagree with what someone has written; it is not ok to attack the person who wrote it. If you can't tell the difference then maybe you shouldn't make the post!"