Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Faeryl Zauvirr 07-12-03, 02:59 AM	Posting this thread in this forum will get me biased answers, but I might as well ask anyway. Which, in terms of quality game products, playability and 'funness' is better: Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance?
Ranger REG 07-12-03, 04:13 AM	I can't answer that until I receive the new DLCS. But if you're asking my preference as a fan: I like BOTH, so don't make me choose one over the other. Anyone offended by my like for DL will just have to bear it. I make no apology.
Faeryl Zauvirr 07-12-03, 04:41 AM	Yes the question does depend on the DLCS. FR has set a high standard for others to follow, I am only hoping the DL setting follows a similar pattern of further accessories and offical website (hint, hint!). Otherwise I believe that FR is strictly superior. I was never a big fan of the kender, and I didn't really find the tinker gnomes that amusing. I really like the new 3.0 take on gnomes - the leaner and spiker spellcasters, rather then the bumbling fast talking inventors, to be fantastic. The Drow, although some would disagree, are a great element of the Forgotten Realms. They are not very strong in Greyhawk, and I don't think they get much of a mention in Dragonlance.
Lashan 07-12-03, 09:23 AM	No kender. That right there is enough.
Straploknight 07-12-03, 09:25 AM	Originally posted by Faeryl Zauvirr The Drow, although some would disagree, are a great element of the Forgotten Realms. They are not very strong in Greyhawk, and I don't think they get much of a mention in Dragonlance. Only confirmed in a module with a Spelljammer tie in (as in spelljamming drow crash) Although I could swear a buddy of mine mentioned he read about a dark skinned elf like being in one of the stories??? However I believe beyond that, there are no drow on krynn.
Tenerus 07-12-03, 10:20 AM	I personally like FR better as a gamig world. Dragonlance makes for wonderful novels, but the Heroes of the Lance have already done everything. It gives the feeling that no matter what, your characters will never compare to them. (granted, FR does have Elmintser, but the world is large enough that one can get away from that, plus, what he does is often done in secret, so it doesn;t overshadow the PC's as much)
Maskanodel 07-12-03, 10:21 AM	Aren't Dark Elves on Krynn normal elves who turn to the, for lack of a better term, dark side? I believe Dalamar the Dark was referred to as a "Dark Elf" on numerous occassions.
Garnet Hardeon 07-12-03, 10:41 AM	Well, I liked Krynn. I actually got into Dragonlance earlier than FR. the world has a lot of potential, but somehow it feels so limited. While Faerun's society's are so well developed (imo, anyway), Dragonlance felt more like once big splat of races on one big continent named Ansalon. That subcontinent Taladas didn't impress me so much either. Though I should say: I wanted to be Raistlin. And always felt that Takhisis is a better name than Tiamat. :)
Jack in the Green 07-12-03, 10:48 AM	I'm no fan of Dragon Lance. The saccharine sweetness of it all just gets under my skin for some reason.
Straploknight 07-12-03, 11:16 AM	Originally posted by Jack in the Green I'm no fan of Dragon Lance. The saccharine sweetness of it all just gets under my skin for some reason. Yeah, Dalamar is an actual dark elf of the Krynnish variety. However as noted the drow did indeed invade krynnspace
Lashan 07-12-03, 11:58 AM	Just to refer to the drow in Greyhawk. Drow started in Greyhawk. The very first drow ever to enter the DnD stage were the bad guys in the "Against the Giant" series (which lead all the way to "Queen of the Demonweb Pits"). FR has taken the idea and run with it. Run too far, if you ask me. FR has too much drow influence. If it wasn't for RA Salvatore's character, there wouldn't be such a huge influx of them in FR. BUT...I am not trying to start a drow thread. I just wanted to clear that up. What I like about FR is that it seems to have a working world (economy and religion) beyond the major world shaking events. Personally, I tend to play the games away from the "major themes" of the world. In FR, I tend to ignore the ToT and all the other major events. I like FR b/c it is a solid and viable game system even if you ignore all the "iconic" FR NPC's, current plot threads, and other stuff that tends to suck.
Thrask the Gnoll 07-12-03, 12:02 PM	Originally posted by Maskanodel Aren't Dark Elves on Krynn normal elves who turn to the, for lack of a better term, dark side? I believe Dalamar the Dark was referred to as a "Dark Elf" on numerous occassions. Correct. Krynn has no drow as they are known on Toril and Oerth. On Krynn, elves who are banished from their societies, for whatever reason, are called "dark elves," because they are considered to have been "cast from the light." Dalamar is such a dark elf, banished for taking up the Black Robes. But not all are actually evil. Some dark elves are victims of politics or personal grudges.
Anuminas 07-12-03, 12:12 PM	Originally posted by Lashan Just to refer to the drow in Greyhawk. Drow started in Greyhawk. The very first drow ever to enter the DnD stage were the bad guys in the "Against the Giant" series (which lead all the way to "Queen of the Demonweb Pits"). FR has taken the idea and run with it. Run too far, if you ask me. FR has too much drow influence. If it wasn't for RA Salvatore's character, there wouldn't be such a huge influx of them in FR. True, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. Against the Giants isn't all that old a product though. FR has taken quite a bit from various sources however, and the numerous Drizzt-like PCs and NPCs are evidence that they have indeed gone too far. It's kind of like cooking...if you put too much of one seasoning in, it is all you will taste. Kind of makes it bland, but oh well. Which setting is better is of course just a matter of opinion. I think they both have distinctive flavors that I like, and some that I don't(Kender for DL, the overdetailed nature of the Realms). Either way, I look forward to the new DL setting book and FRCS products.
Lashan 07-12-03, 12:39 PM	I like to think that "Against the Giants" isn't that old, b/c then I don't feel so old :) It is 1E and we are on 3.5E now. Some people consider some 2E stuff old, so I figured anything 1E is ancient.
Anuminas 07-12-03, 12:43 PM	Originally posted by Lashan I like to think that "Against the Giants" isn't that old, b/c then I don't feel so old :) It is 1E and we are on 3.5E now. Some people consider some 2E stuff old, so I figured anything 1E is ancient. Heh, so true. Now you are making me feel old.
Ssussunriyh 07-12-03, 01:08 PM	I never liked DL as a campaign setting, because it was more of an epic story set in a static environment with monolithic evil as the antagonist. Once the iconic characters save the world, everything else pales by comparasin, so there isn't much else to do. FR, on the other hand, is in a constant state of flux with many different antagonists to fight against (and sometimes they also fight each other!) The setting provides for small local conflicts as well as a potential for epic struggles. My only complaints are that magic is a bit too prevalent for my liking, and DMs tend to overuse the iconic characters, upstaging the PCs.
Anuminas 07-12-03, 01:10 PM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh My only complaints are that magic is a bit too prevalent for my liking, and DMs tend to overuse the iconic characters, upstaging the PCs. Not only do DMs do this, but the setting itself seems to. If the iconic characters/NPCs of the setting were more of a backdrop (and a good DM could make them that way), the setting would be a lot better off.
Lashan 07-12-03, 01:16 PM	I can (and have before) gone off on how the original grey boxed set wasn't like it is now. Things were slowly added in to make it the magic heavy and NPC heavy game world it is now. Personally, I use the original material extensively, set the time frame to 1340 DR and ignore all the major NPCs. It works great. That's what I mean about the game world being a good place to play besides all the "iconic" stuff about it. It's not just a good story, but a good game world, too.
Faeryl Zauvirr 07-13-03, 01:02 AM	I got to have a look at a list of PrC contained in the DLSC and I was a little disappointed. Six ot of the nine (or ten) of them refer to the Knights of Solamia or Knights of Tahkisis. Therefore what Ssussunriyh said about the DL setting: static environment with monolithic evil as the antagonist is true. However, looking at the other PrC available, I can safely say that they will merge better with the PrC in the 3.5 DMG. As noted on other forums, 3.5 DMG has too many spellcaster PrC, and I think that the DLCS doesn't have enough.
Nighttfall 07-13-03, 01:07 AM	Much the question asked to some six-year olds (Which is better cholocate or ice cream?) I like the Scarred Lands the best. ;)
Tokugawa 07-13-03, 02:50 AM	Referring back to the whole "Kenders must die!" issue... I have a lot of the sourcebooks from the Fifth Age Saga system that TSR made...you know, the card based RPG. This is what I consider the original "DLCS"...at least when it comes to the present time period it Dragonlance is set in, which is after the departure of the gods of Krynn. I looky, looky...guess what I found? Serious kender. No, I'm not kidding you. There are actually SERIOUS, down-to-earth kender in the Fifth Age! :eek: Spoiler Alert for those of you not up to date on Dragonlance Fifth Age: S P O I L E R A L E R T After the destruction of Kenderhome *by a dragon, I think*, the suriviving kender retreat to their brethren in other parts of Ansalon. I forget the exact details, and I'm too lazy to look through my archive of games to find the Fifth Age RPG base book. However, according to what I remember, these kender find themselves to be more serious, and they rarely joke along full-heartedly as they used to. This resulted in some sort of enstrangement or distancing from other kender around them. This difference was so pronounced that these Kenderhome survivors are actually recorded as a different subrace of kender with different abilities and such in the Fifth Age game. E N D S P O I L E R But now...will the idea of serious kender work? Maybe. I personally doubt it...and I don't even know if this will have any significant impact on kender in the DLCS. But whatever the case, that book is definitely is going to be on my shelf as soon as the release date dawns upon us.
Ranger REG 07-13-03, 04:21 AM	Originally posted by Maskanodel Aren't Dark Elves on Krynn normal elves who turn to the, for lack of a better term, dark side? I believe Dalamar the Dark was referred to as a "Dark Elf" on numerous occassions. Basically, elves who turned evil and have been discommended from the elf society (like when Worf in Star Trek: TNG was discommended from Klingon society at one point). They are no longer Silvanesti nor Qualinesti; they're Dark Elves.
Ranger REG 07-13-03, 04:29 AM	Originally posted by Tokugawa I have a lot of the sourcebooks from the Fifth Age Saga system that TSR made...you know, the card based RPG. This is what I consider the original "DLCS"...at least when it comes to the present time period it Dragonlance is set in, :behold: Eww! Don't ever mentioned that rules system again. I was outraged (an understatement; my true feelings then would require colorful description not suitable for children under 21) by TSR for ruining Dragonlance when they switched over from D&D ruleset to that vile card-based ruleset. It is one of many TSR's STOOPID business move that led to their downfall.
Sarelle 07-13-03, 07:55 AM	I like FR better for reasons mainly listed above - in DL there is a fundamental line between the epic, save-the-world-from-dragons-and-Lord-Soth, iconic good-guys and the evil-for-no-apparant-reason, truly-evil-in-every-concept-of-the-word bad guys. Meanwhile in FR, you can play the epic-save-the-world paladin OR your campaign could just be about taking down a small arm of the Red Wizards, and be equally, if not more exciting. There is more maneouvrability for evil PCs too. And there is almost NO deific stories to be told in DL, whislt our good old Mystra, Lathander, Shar, Bane, Mielikki and Cyric storylines help keep FR more inticing than any other campaign world (in my opinion). Saccharine sweetness is a good description of the land too... and whilst I am fairly nutty myself, I think the setting attracts too many Dada-ist kender-lovers, and not enough serious role-players. But I do like kender in some ways - I prefer them to halflings, who are such a corruption of Tolkien's work (I know its about legal issues... but really! Some respect for old JRRT who invented fantasy!) And yes, there are serious kender. Something about their home being torn apart by a dragon-lord. Afflicted kender, they are called. (For more info on Kender, afflicted and not-so, and about the dragonlance setting go to www.kencyclopedia.com (http://www.kencyclopedia.com ) )
inci 07-13-03, 09:35 AM	i really enjoy playing in a D&D world without clerics&Paladins magic becomes very strong again, we dont have those cleric-tanks and undead are a real danger to a party. of course you have those mighty heros of the lance and their epic story. but why not play before that ? or while it takes place doing other very important things. i played in an evil party once while the happenings of the dragonwar, it actually was very exciting to plot against those 'dragonlance-heros'. sure, we dropped some of the official story, but hey - its our game :) The problem with dragonlance in 2nd edition was that you needed a lot of 'houseruling' to have a decent campaign, i really hope that the new book will give us some more decent background to work with. cant await it :) but to be honest, dragonlance is by no means a rival to the FR setting. its just completly different. FR is fun, lots of magic, lots of gods, lots of intrigues, drow - did i say 'its fun' already? :)
Faraer 07-13-03, 11:11 AM	Realms has the advantage of unambiguously not being Mormon propaganda. Hm, Sarelle prefers kender to halflings. I think the eroded, reappropriated versions of Tolkien dwarves and elves in D&D-fantasy are no more or less reasonable than D&D halflings. Ed Greenwood's GAZ8 The Five Shires (http://store.yahoo.com/svgames-store/tsr9232esd.html) shows how he makes hobbits his own without gimmicking them up (and its hin apply to the Realms and describe Luiren, too).
Sarelle 07-13-03, 02:05 PM	I said "such a corruption". I know FR elves and dwarves are not Tolkien elves and dwarves - obviously. But they are not different species hiding behind Tolkien's races' names, just variations of the same theme.
Garnet Hardeon 07-13-03, 03:52 PM	What I'd just like to add is that Dragonlance is a bit sparse in terms of high powered characters...okay, so the Heroes of the Lance and the others like Lord Soth are iconic, but when you get down to it, it was like the DL characters of the books were succeeding in their tasks mostly by will and a combination of luck, not necessarily by their individual strengths (with the possible exception of Raistlin) FR, however, tends to go the opposite and has characters almost characterized by their individual strengths that it can get easy to reduce them to a collection of powers and abilities. For example, the first thing that comes to mind when one says, Chosen of Mystra is power. Power, power, power, POWER. Oh yeah, and barely dressed silver haired babes. Still like FR more, though. I never bought the whole, "if you can try hard enough and pour your soul into it, you will get what you want" vibe I get from DL.
Thrask the Gnoll 07-13-03, 03:56 PM	"And there is almost NO deific stories to be told in DL, whislt our good old Mystra, Lathander, Shar, Bane, Mielikki and Cyric storylines help keep FR more inticing than any other campaign world (in my opinion)." Uh, pardon? Practically every event on Krynn is due to the machinations of its gods. Takhisis was a huge mover and shaker of events. Paladine was sticking his nose in left and right. Three gods of magic ordained everything the Order of High Sorcery did. "Realms has the advantage of unambiguously not being Mormon propaganda." :uh-huh: What on earth is that supposed to mean?
Faraer 07-13-03, 04:34 PM	The first things that comes to mind about various Chosen of Mystra is kindness, wisdom, great age, beauty, and derangement. Ed wouldn't ever have told us exact powers and abilities if people hadn't demanded them. Tracy Hickman is a Mormon, and the Dragonlance Chronicles could uncharitably be interpreted as Mormon propaganda.
Falcar 07-13-03, 05:45 PM	Tracy Hickman is a Mormon, and the Dragonlance Chronicles could uncharitably be interpreted as Mormon propaganda. ...how?
Ranger REG 07-13-03, 10:29 PM	Originally posted by Faraer Tracy Hickman is a Mormon, and the Dragonlance Chronicles could uncharitably be interpreted as Mormon propaganda. :uh-huh: That is about as STOOPID as saying that Tolkien wrote his classic LOTR as a Catholic propaganda. Please tell me that above statement is not a serious one. And please, stop degrading this thread into DL-bashing.
Tokugawa 07-13-03, 11:12 PM	I just want to say one lil off-topic thing...Tolkien's Middle Earth stories, while not "Catholic propaganda," are definitely influenced by his conservative Catholic beliefs. For example, the journey of the Ring bearer start AND stop on Christmas Day, Sauron represents Satan, and the ring that Sauron forged is symbolic of the fruit given to Adam and Eve given to bring evil into the world (i.e. the bearers of the Five and the Nine became wicked and evil, bannermen of Sauron's power), etc etc...if this all seems a bit contrived, there are references in Tolkien's original notes and such about references to his faith in his work, although he primarily intended The Lord of the Rings to be a cohesive mythology rather than an allegory of the Christian faith. So, it might not be totally off the wall to say that Dragonlance has been influenced by Weis and Hickman's Mormon belief (or at least, Weis's anyway...I don't recall whether Hickman is a Mormon too). Does Dragonlance have shades of allusions to Mormonism? Sure. Is Dragonlance a covert operation by the Mormon church in order to recruit more members? I doubt it. But back on topic, I think Dragonlance has its good benefits (while also making an excellent backdrop for an epic saga), although I much prefer FR as a campaign setting. Sometimes I have trouble writing a good campaign for FR just because I think of a totally awesome story idea, only to remember some little bit of obscure FR canon that goes against the idae, and that I KNOW that my characters will have memorized already. However, in Dragonlance, I can mess with a lot of the campaign setting because either a) the players are unaware that I made any "upsetting" changes or b) they don't care or c) both a and b. This is the similar benefit running a campaign in Greyhawk has: almost nothing's printed about it anymore, except for the tidbits of stuff in the Living Greyhawk journal, so the DM is can run with pretty much almost any idea he can come up with without players calling a foul. Of course...FR is much more detailed and intricate, as well as just a "funner" campaign setting. You gotta like that too.
texaskron 07-14-03, 01:53 AM	Originally posted by Faraer Tracy Hickman is a Mormon, and the Dragonlance Chronicles could uncharitably be interpreted as Mormon propaganda. Holy cow. Yeah, 'cause Tasslehoff rides a bicycle and wears a white shirt with a tie. I can almost see what you are saying with certain archetypes and story-telling techniques in use but still.... ----- Anyhow: In a fight between settings that are both filled with uber-generic Tolkein-with-mild-variations-crunchy-creaming goodness... I'll go with Dark Sun. :devil: Dregoth and Rajaat could so beat down on anyone from FR or Dragonlance... Pathetic preserving magic dependant on deities? Pah. No or little psionics? Pah. ;) Too each their own I guess but Athasian everything is just cool, by cool I mean totally sweet. :)
Faeryl Zauvirr 07-14-03, 01:55 AM	Sometimes I have trouble writing a good campaign for FR just because I think of a totally awesome story idea, only to remember some little bit of obscure FR canon that goes against the idae, and that I KNOW that my characters will have memorized already. Yes, it is unfortunate that some players are too much a sticker for the 'true realms' . If I run a campaign too far from convention some of my players will speak up like I have commited some crime.
Faraer 07-14-03, 10:30 AM	I'm not saying that Dragonlance is Mormon propaganda. I don't believe it is, and I couldn't make a strong argument for it. But others have argued that, and some have argued that The Lord of the Rings is Catholic propaganda, and more than a few people have read the Chronicles and Legends and then been disturbed to realize elements of its author's theology there.
Crust 07-14-03, 11:51 AM	Back to the subject at hand... I began playing D&D with Dragonlance, and I began reading regularly with Dragonlance, so it holds a place in my heart. I was lucky enough to run adventures in Daargard Keep (Soth's castle), and I was blessed enough to be able to run most of the Classics campaign... I had tons of fun reading and running in the DL campaign. I was involved with DL for about 6 years. Then I read The Crystal Shard. Some 20 FR novels later, I felt prepared to run an FR campaign. I started with the Twisted Tower module in the gray box, then I converted Night Below over to FR and ran that until the group was destroyed in the 3rd book. We're still playing in FR 5 years later. I love both worlds, but ever since 5th Age began in DL, I wasn't enjoying myself anymore. The introduction of those Sage card rules just made me sick, so I turned my back on DL and embraced FR. I doubt the new DL book will force me away from Faerun.
Ilbreth Shadowblade 07-14-03, 12:16 PM	I like DL novels, but as a gaming world it doesn't leve much space for PCs. Thus I prefer the Realms. BTW - is the DLCS out yet? :confused:
loki87 07-14-03, 01:21 PM	DL is a brilliant world, with some amazing epic tales that drive it. The characters and stories from the novels are some of the best that fantasy has to offer. However, as a D&D world, it doesn't work as well for gameplay as FR. The Forgotten Realms is so much more versatile, allowing for any kind of fantasy adventure that you can imagine. No other gaming world comes close to the diversity and coverage that FR does. I will probably DM or play in a DL adventure this after the DLCS and some other sourcebooks have been released, but I know that it can never reach the same scope as FR when it comes to gameplay.
Thrask the Gnoll 07-14-03, 04:22 PM	Originally posted by Ilbreth Shadowblade I like DL novels, but as a gaming world it doesn't leve much space for PCs. Thus I prefer the Realms. BTW - is the DLCS out yet? :confused: Nope, it's out in August, though they were selling advanced copies at Origins and on Weis' website (they're on backorder there, now), and will probably do the same at Gen Con.
Nighttfall 07-14-03, 04:39 PM	Plus Morrus that runs En World's site got an advanced copy. You can read his posting of it on En World's front page.
Ilbreth Shadowblade 07-14-03, 05:00 PM	Thanks! So I'll have to wait a little :)
Faeryl Zauvirr 07-15-03, 01:35 AM	If anybody is curious the listing of products comming out for DL for the next couple months include: DLCS DLCS Companion DL Dungeon Master Screen Key of Destiny, DL Campaign Vol 1 Bestiary of Kyrnn We will all have to see just how well these compare to the FRCS, Monsters of Faerun and City of the Spider Queen.
Ranger REG 07-15-03, 03:22 AM	Originally posted by Tokugawa Of course...FR is much more detailed and intricate, as well as just a "funner" campaign setting. You gotta like that too. True, but I don't favor one over the other. Each campaign setting has likes and dislikes. And I enjoyed playing both of them. [ And yes, I'm trying my damnedest to prevent this thread from turning into a campaign-bashing discussion. ] Of course, Faerun is basically a mirror of our own world, like the conquest of Maztica is similar to Cortez conquering Mexico. Yamun Khahan and his Tuigan Hordes embodies the Mongol and Ghenghis Khan. Even in those bits of history embodies some religious or mythological value associated with the cultures (most of which embodies around superstitions and religion) that mirrors our own.
DeathRaven 07-15-03, 09:54 PM	I used to love Krynn until the Fifth Age. They'll probably make the Minotaurs into a strictly evil race, which I dispise because I love the Minotaurs of Krynn as oppsed to the monsters in other worlds. The Charecters that I felt made Krynn a great world are gone or missing. (Lord Soth he's the greatest villian of all time in my book, Tiamat and Bahmaut as the main gods, Etc. etc.) Instead they brought in new and totally boring new charecters and I swear the Gods of Krynn with the exception of Paladine and Takhisis(Sp?) are the most incompotent gods I have EVER seen?! They replace them with the two worse choices they could've made.....*Shakes his head in disbelief*. Frankly I think they hurt the world with the beginning of the fifth age. I think Lord Soth should be brought to Toril by Tiamat (Or perhaps by the Lich-Queen for Incursion) and put in charge of the Cult Of The Dragon, and Bahmaut comes as well to counter Tiamat and as for Krynn, a few changes to the Pantheon I think will fix a great deal of things, and maybe leave the old group dead, and bring in new (and Interesting!) Charecters. Well I think that's about it.
DaemonAngel 07-15-03, 11:51 PM	There both good as far as I'm concerned. One has something the other doesn't but that doesn't make either one better or worse then the other. The only real differences between the two is that one setting centers around a smaller region then the other. Anyway, play what you like and if you don't like it then don't play it. No point in getting into an argument over what setting is better. Unless it's Dark Sun, then fire away ;)
Will Brandiman 07-16-03, 08:01 AM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh I never liked DL as a campaign setting, because it was more of an epic story set in a static environment with monolithic evil as the antagonist. Once the iconic characters save the world, everything else pales by comparasin, so there isn't much else to do. Did anyone ever play or run the adventures based on the original series of novels? God they were awful. So incredibly linear! Anyone trying to do anything that couldn't be found on page x of the novels was basically right out of luck. The PC's were shoved brutally along the paths set out in the novels and yet they also relied on the players not taking advantage of any of the information that might have been gained from reading the novels. I seem to recall that in the very first adventure you met a guy called Ebon. Anyone reading the books knew that Ebon was a traitor and yet he was still a traitor in the adventures! They could at least have changed a few things. Anyway, getting back on topic, personally I much prefer FR to DL.
Faraer 07-16-03, 08:13 AM	But the DL-series adventures weren't based on the novels any more than the other way round, they were developed together. It's a considerable irony that within roleplaying, the roleplaying format of this story is less well known, and less in print, than the novel equivalents. It's quite true about the linearity, though -- needs a good DM to make them work. Another irony: two years into the published Realms, a world made for myriad local plots and swords & sorcery adventure, the Avatar Crisis inflicts a worldwide shattering metaplot, with novels and a parallel FRE module series with lots of amazing Realmslore that had to be written into a tight linear plot as the novel plots changed.
Mr. VanderMeer 07-16-03, 10:36 AM	It all sort of depends. If I had to DM in a published WotC setting, I would choose Greyhawk. If I would be a player, I would probably choose FR. Or if the DLCS is really good; Dragonlance but I kind of agree with the Dragonlance setting being very well suited for novels, but a bit restrictive for playing.
Ranger REG 07-16-03, 08:16 PM	Originally posted by DeathRaven I used to love Krynn until the Fifth Age. Me, too. That's why I will go back to where I started off, just after the War of the Lance and before the banishment of gods and magic. In retrospect, I used to love Faerun until Gond decided to introduce firearms into Toril. Am I disappointed about that storyline? Yes. Do I still play FR? Yes, but without the firearms. While I love what TSR, Wizards and Ed Greenwood offered Forgotten Realms, ultimately you must make it your own Forgotten Realm setting.
Ranger REG 07-16-03, 08:19 PM	Originally posted by Mr. VanderMeer Or if the DLCS is really good; Dragonlance but I kind of agree with the Dragonlance setting being very well suited for novels, but a bit restrictive for playing. Bah! If I can play MERP based on Tolkien's works, I'm sure you can play Dragonlance, which was both a game and novel line released simultaneously. It is because of that successful busines strategy, were TSR able to market the Forgotten Realms brand, later in 1987.
texaskron 07-17-03, 12:59 AM	Originally posted by DaemonAngel Unless it's Dark Sun, then fire away ;) Meanie. :sad: :D In retrospect, I used to love Faerun until Gond decided to introduce firearms into Toril. Am I disappointed about that storyline? Yes. Do I still play FR? Yes, but without the firearms. Gond is the best part. Imagine a Sun Elf ranger/rogue of Gond with dual-pistols - all John Woo-ed out and stuff. Drizzt eat your heart out and oh, here's some lead to go with that heart-ache humble pie! To make it worse, make the character a Kender. ;) The FR are full of portals and whatnot and in the chaos of the Fifth Age... and especially if you use old Spelljammer stuff, tres possible. I agree with the above posters about the Fifth Age, if I ever run a DL campaign it will take place somewhere around the War of the Lance with elements of later material mixed in. If I ever run Realms it will be ruthlessly stealing stuff and creating my own area cut off from the rest of Toril, like I did last time with some crazy gnomes that worship Gond and made firearms and airships and flamethrowers, amongst other things. But you could say that they were just effective Tinker Gnomes. :) I also used a beefed up Mask and the genasi and things of that nature. Hopefully the guy I'm passing this on to does a good job. Come to think of it, most of my homebrews look like mixtures of Krynn and Faerun... more Faerun though. A friend of mine seems to lean more to the Krynn side... weirdness. I steal bits from Planescape and sneak in some Dark Sun ideas in the back door... especially the Cleansing Wars. Ack, wandering off topic. Oh well. :)
Crust 07-17-03, 01:10 PM	Originally posted by Will Brandiman Did anyone ever play or run the adventures based on the original series of novels? God they were awful. So incredibly linear! Anyone trying to do anything that couldn't be found on page x of the novels was basically right out of luck. The PC's were shoved brutally along the paths set out in the novels and yet they also relied on the players not taking advantage of any of the information that might have been gained from reading the novels. I seem to recall that in the very first adventure you met a guy called Ebon. Anyone reading the books knew that Ebon was a traitor and yet he was still a traitor in the adventures! They could at least have changed a few things. I disagree entirely. I DMed through the adventures up past the Silvanesti nightmares and the modules were anything but linear. Things were easily changed (and Eben was easily omitted). The PCs fought Verminaard on three separate occasions, and Ember went on to avenge his master's death by slaying Caramon and the Prince of Thorbardin. I had a wonderful group of different PCs, including a berserker and a dwarven cleric of Reorx. The individual playing Raistlin role-played him to a T, and we were able to run through AMAZING parts of the saga that didn't appear in the books, such as Skullcap and Icewall. Those modules were amazing, and I want to DM them again in the future.
Sarelle 07-17-03, 03:41 PM	Originally posted by texaskron Gond is the best part. Imagine a Sun Elf ranger/rogue of Gond with dual-pistols - all John Woo-ed out and stuff. Drizzt eat your heart out and oh, here's some lead to go with that heart-ache humble pie! *Tears at hair and pukes. Actually... eww, forget that.* If I had wanted an elf wielding pistols I'd be playing d20 modern. FR is considered an ancient time through to medieval fantasy world. Anyway, where is the skill in killing things with the most powerful inventions of the time? I leave Gond's inventions well alone - I don't make them not exist, but I do ban them from players using them (unless, maybe they were a cleric of Gond, or a Divine Champion of Gond or something equally similar and equally disgusting, in my opinion). And I make it that the use of them is frowned upon and will never become widespread.
Gellion 07-17-03, 10:24 PM	Originally posted by Sarelle *Tears at hair and pukes. Actually... eww, forget that.* If I had wanted an elf wielding pistols I'd be playing d20 modern. FR is considered an ancient time through to medieval fantasy world. Anyway, where is the skill in killing things with the most powerful inventions of the time? I leave Gond's inventions well alone - I don't make them not exist, but I do ban them from players using them (unless, maybe they were a cleric of Gond, or a Divine Champion of Gond or something equally similar and equally disgusting, in my opinion). And I make it that the use of them is frowned upon and will never become widespread. Its your campaign, so you can do whatever you want. But it is not fair to penalize someone just because of their character concept. If they want to use firearms let them, they are not really unbalancing. Besides Smokepowder is actually a magical substance in FR.:)
Iakhovas 07-17-03, 11:01 PM	If I had wanted an elf wielding pistols I'd be playing d20 modern. FR is considered an ancient time through to medieval fantasy world. Anyway, where is the skill in killing things with the most powerful inventions of the time?I find it amusing that people think smokepowder is overpowered in a world where characters can teleport across the globe, slay dragons with elvish longswords of great antiquity, and even resurrect their fallen comrades.
Sarelle 07-18-03, 08:31 AM	I never said that I thought they were overpowered, as everyone thinks I did. Read my post again. I just don't see the skill in using them compared to things like swords and bows and arrows. And FR is a 'ancient times through medieval fantasy world'.
Darkmistress 07-18-03, 08:57 AM	FR shares some aspects with medieval Earth, but a medieval Earth it is not. If you haven't noticed, many of the concepts and ideas present in FR are distinctly modern. But yeah, I agree. If you wanted an elf dual-wielding gun, is there a point in playing a FR campaign any more?
texaskron 07-18-03, 12:55 PM	Where's the skill in it? Well, flintlocks are usually one-shot weapons so it would take more than one feat (rapid reload & quickdraw) to make the character even marginally effective. That and having to have high levels of Craft (gunsmithing) to make bullets and to deal with the eventuality of the guns jamming. The cost of materials and smokepowder would also be "balancing" factors especially if the character has to make his own. The elf would be all about skill, as opposed to his contemporaries for whom skill amounts to "stick pointy thing in other man" and "play with newts and draw symbols". :) As for breaking the genre, I guess I can see how that might be an issue... but it is a staple of the fantasy genre since probably even before Tolkien that magic fades and so forth in the face of utility made manifest i.e. technology. This concept is possible in the Realms as written and with a lenient or rules-lawyer DM, and/or a more advanced Renaissance-y take, it could work. Elminister wouldn't even be phased by Mr. Elven Gunsmith. A low level wizard could take out/overawe his shtick with one well-placed flaming sphere/ magic missile. Heck, a cleric with "create water" could damage his pistols if the DM says that smokepowder has the same properties as blackpowder. Gunpowder weapons other than cannon are more terror weapons than anything (they make smoke and a loud noise), since longbows/ x-bows are much, much more reliable and damaging at range, not to mention quieter. Its was only the introduction of rifled & repeating weapons that there was a clear objective advantage of firearms over bows. In short, it would be a waste of feats and skill points to do something that is clearly suboptimal - it would only be a flavor & fun issue... you know though, arguing against a Gondist Elven dual-pistoleer is to argue against the Forgotten Realms. You can rule zero it all you want but we can't have a discussion about that since I could rule zero that Elminister was turned into a newt by a kender and that Lord Soth and a Dragon army killed Mystra and her Chosen in the Western Heartlands. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 07-18-03, 10:00 PM	Originally posted by Faraer The first things that comes to mind about various Chosen of Mystra is kindness, wisdom, great age, beauty, and derangement. Ed wouldn't ever have told us exact powers and abilities if people hadn't demanded them. I wish it had always been that way (people being satisfied with the character's personalities and not demanding powers). *sigh*
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 07-18-03, 10:05 PM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Of course, Faerun is basically a mirror of our own world, like the conquest of Maztica is similar to Cortez conquering Mexico. Yamun Khahan and his Tuigan Hordes embodies the Mongol and Ghenghis Khan. Faerun was never supposed to be a mirror of our own world, until someone decided to introduce Maztica and Kara-Tur to the FR (which was a grave mistake IMO). Greenwood never meant for the FR to parallel Earth like that.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 07-18-03, 10:12 PM	Originally posted by Darkmistress But yeah, I agree. If you wanted an elf dual-wielding gun, is there a point in playing a FR campaign any more? This is basically why I dislike firearms in the FR, I feel they ruin the flavor of the setting if they become widespread and/or widely used--I will stick to swords and sorcery, thank you.
Gellion 07-18-03, 10:57 PM	I dont mind firearms, because i am kinda growing tired of Tokienic fantasy.
Iakhovas 07-18-03, 11:37 PM	Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Faerun was never supposed to be a mirror of our own world, until someone decided to introduce Maztica and Kara-Tur to the FR (which was a grave mistake IMO). Greenwood never meant for the FR to parallel Earth like that. We're not talking about an original setting like Dark Sun or Oathbound folks. Faerūn is obviously based on medieval Europe with knights, castles, and princesses. Throw is some dragons, wizards, and orcs and you there you have it. But wait, Dragonlance has all that... and so does Greyhawk, Mystara, Birthright, and a dozen other Euro-centric settings. So, what makes the Forgotten Realms so special? I'd wager the bank that the prime reason why the Realms has been so successful, where all other campaign settings have failed, is *because* the world mirrors our own. The Forgotten Realms setting feels huge, yet familiar. Even if you’ve never set a campaign in Kara-Tur, Maztica, or Zakhara, these distant lands, with their unique customs and alien gods, make the setting feel more “real”. No other setting gives you this same feeling. It may have not been part of Greenwood's home campaign, but Kara-Tur has been with us since 1988 so it's not like its some last minute addition. Take out the merchant trade between Faerūn and Kara-Tur and the rich history of the Eastern Lands and the Forgotten Realms becomes yet another Greyhawk, "cookie-cutter" setting.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 07-18-03, 11:58 PM	Originally posted by Iakhovas Faerūn is obviously based on medieval Europe with knights, castles, and princesses. Throw is some dragons, wizards, and orcs and you there you have it. But wait, Dragonlance has all that... and so does Greyhawk, Mystara, Birthright, and a dozen other Euro-centric settings. Well, there is much, much more to it than that (and the differences between Faerun and medieval Europe are quite stark), but onto my main point: So, what makes the Forgotten Realms so special? I'd wager the bank that the prime reason why the Realms has been so successful, where all other campaign settings have failed, is *because* the world mirrors our own. The Forgotten Realms setting feels huge, yet familiar. Even if you’ve never set a campaign in Kara-Tur, Maztica, or Zakhara, these distant lands, with their unique customs and alien gods, make the setting feel more “real”. No other setting gives you this same feeling. It may have not been part of Greenwood's home campaign, but Kara-Tur has been with us since 1988 so it's not like its some last minute addition. Take out the merchant trade between Faerūn and Kara-Tur and the rich history of the Eastern Lands and the Forgotten Realms becomes yet another Greyhawk, "cookie-cutter" setting. I'd wager the success of the FR has nothing to do with Kara-Tur or Maztica, at least not for most people. Really, those settings are mostly dead by now (not quite dead, but mostly dead) and there has been very little information about them over the years--they is very little information about them in the new FRCS, after all. If these "real world" settings are so popular, how come they are given but a few pages in the FRCS (if that), while the Heartlands gets the bulk of the book, as well as a fairly constant stream of new sourcebooks? Don't get me wrong, I do like some familiarity (and Faerun isn't completely alien, of course), but a "Mongolian Horde" and "Spanish conquistadores" (complete with "New Amn" and New Waterdeep") on Toril??? For me, that's just too much familiarity, to the point of being ridiculous. You can pratically predict what will happen next, as well. I don't "travel" to Toril (mentally) to relive Earth's history, I want to see something different and perhaps more idealistic. If you like it, that's fine...but I don't, and I am happy the Matiza setting has been all but ignored since (Kara-Tur doesn't really bother me, just the "Mongolian Horde" part). I just don't think "Wow, like Earth, cool!" I think "What is that doing here??? This is Toril! Get that out of here!" all the while raising my eyebrows at it. I don't think FR's status as a rich setting depends on having real world events therein.
Kash Darreder 07-19-03, 05:05 AM	Originally posted by Tokugawa I just want to say one lil off-topic thing...Tolkien's Middle Earth stories, while not "Catholic propaganda," are definitely influenced by his conservative Catholic beliefs. For example, the journey of the Ring bearer start AND stop on Christmas Day, Sauron represents Satan, and the ring that Sauron forged is symbolic of the fruit given to Adam and Eve given to bring evil into the world (i.e. the bearers of the Five and the Nine became wicked and evil, bannermen of Sauron's power), etc etc...if this all seems a bit contrived, there are references in Tolkien's original notes and such about references to his faith in his work, although he primarily intended The Lord of the Rings to be a cohesive mythology rather than an allegory of the Christian faith. Without making this into a LoTR thread, the ringquest started on September 22 and ended in early oktober when the hobbits return to the shire. There was 7, not five dwarf rings and they didnt grow evil only greedy. Just a little sidetrip.
Yamo 07-19-03, 05:35 AM	"What is that doing here??? This is Toril! Get that out of here!" Yet knights, dragons, wizards, bards and other stuff obviously stolen from European myth and history doesn't do the same thing? :confused: Makes no sense to me.
Darkmistress 07-19-03, 06:49 AM	Originally posted by Yamo Yet knights, dragons, wizards, bards and other stuff obviously stolen from European myth and history doesn't do the same thing? :confused: Makes no sense to me. Maybe because all of them are present in, oh, just about any fantasy setting?
WraithXIII 07-19-03, 09:23 AM	I cut my teeth in the fantasy realm of Dragonlance, reading the first book of the Chronicles for a book report when I was 15. I delved in further, buying more DL books and going as far as buying pewter figures. I lost my mind honestly, most everything I did revolved around that stuff. At 20, I began to lose interest, selling some of my stuff, but keeping the core DL books and boxed campaign set. At 23, my friends and I began getting into D&D again, and a few years later, my friend Al introduced me into the Forgotten Realms. My earlier encounters always left me confused and not wanting to delve into it. But with the maps and other items, I found myself falling in love with it. I think my final answer is that as far as something I hold near and dear to my heart, the world of Krynn is my special place. I like to read the books now and again and reminicse about time spent with friends. But as far a place to roleplay in, I think Faerun offers more in terms of pure area to explore. I love DL like a brother, but I love Faerun as a lover. If that makes sense... :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 07-19-03, 04:14 PM	Originally posted by Yamo Yet knights, dragons, wizards, bards and other stuff obviously stolen from European myth and history doesn't do the same thing? :confused: Makes no sense to me. That is because you misinterpreted my post. First, dragons and wizards never existed in real life, so that doesn't count anyway. As for knights and bards...I was talking about real life events (the "spanish conquistadores" of Toril), not individual characters and stereotypes (or creatures from myths, which I *never* said I had a problem with!). Understand?
Mr. Wilson 07-20-03, 03:12 AM	Originally posted by texaskron Come to think of it, most of my homebrews look like mixtures of Krynn and Faerun... more Faerun though. A friend of mine seems to lean more to the Krynn side... weirdness. I see you're referring to me here. What can I say, I started reading DL when I was 12 or 13 right when I cut my teeth on *shudders* Rifts and HeroQuest. I'm quite fond of the Epic Monolithic Evil, probably from both my Star Wars love and DL, so that tends to make it into my campaigns. And Krynn has some wicked cool ideas with the order of the Mages, which I unabashedly ripped off minus the moons part. OTOH, Faerun is great for a more varied campaign, and has such detail and depth that it really is the best boxed Campaign Setting IMHO. --------------------------------- Off topic: Tex, I'll publically wish you good luck in your training and such at Paris Island. I can't believe you're running off and leaving my campaign just because of some sorta deluded goal of yours to serve your country. Priorities man, priorities.:D Good luck, and kill some baddies for me.
Ranger REG 07-20-03, 04:07 AM	Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Faerun was never supposed to be a mirror of our own world, until someone decided to introduce Maztica and Kara-Tur to the FR (which was a grave mistake IMO). Greenwood never meant for the FR to parallel Earth like that. Perhaps, but it is no longer his call. Personally, I believe in parallel development (a la Trek fan) but up to a certain point. I never cared nor questioned whether Kara-Tur should be a part of Toril, I just accepted it.
Dargoth 07-20-03, 04:44 AM	Originally posted by Faraer Tracy Hickman is a Mormon, and the Dragonlance Chronicles could uncharitably be interpreted as Mormon propaganda. Lol!! I can just picture it *couple of "Mormon" Kender appear outside Fzouls temple in Zhentil Keep* *they knock on the Temple door* Fzoul opens the door. "Who dares to disturb me, Tyrant of the Moonsea and Chosen of Bane" Kender "We'd like to talk to you about the lord!" Fzoul "What!!!" *To Unholy smites later and the beholders have 2 halflingly sized snacks for lunch*
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 07-20-03, 06:54 PM	Originally posted by Ranger REG Personally, I believe in parallel development (a la Trek fan) but up to a certain point. I never cared nor questioned whether Kara-Tur should be a part of Toril, I just accepted it. As I said, I don't question Kara-Tur itself, just major real-world events on Toril (spanish conquistadors, New Waterdeep). What's next, Maztica will become America on Toril?
Ranger REG 07-21-03, 04:56 AM	No, that would be a Mexico-clone. Remember our history? :smirk: Further north would be the fertile land of America counterpart. In fact, Dragon magazine once had an article for a region that can be placed above the Maztica region.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 07-21-03, 11:41 AM	Mexico is, technically, part of America (North America). ;) But I see your point. I don't like the idea of an "America" on Toril (ie. a copy of real-world history) but that's just my opinion. :)
Ranger REG 07-21-03, 04:20 PM	But I do. I like playing something along the line of Native American Indian counterpart setting.
texaskron 07-22-03, 01:33 AM	Off topic: Tex, I'll publically wish you good luck in your training and such at Paris Island. I can't believe you're running off and leaving my campaign just because of some sorta deluded goal of yours to serve your country. Priorities man, priorities.:D Thanks for listening to me vent about the paperwork foul-up. I'm still going unless they've forgotten something on the order of forgetting to give me a background check, again. I wouldn't be leaving your campaign if it was in Krynn you see that's how much I dislike the FR. Epic Monolithic Evil has its place, at my feet crying for its mommy. :) But, Faerun has more nuance which appeals to my sophisticated side (I'm not sure how where it came from either) due to its thinly veiled allegory of Medieval and Renaissance Earth.... An "America" in Toril could be interesting... *synapses firing* "Puritans" from Evermeet... Kender Mormons... slaves from the islands south of Zakhara... forces of Amn, Waterdeep, and Evermeet duking it out over the continent. Could be cool. Edit: grammar
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 07-22-03, 09:07 PM	Originally posted by texaskron But, Faerun has more nuance which appeals to my sophisticated side (I'm not sure how where it came from either) due to its thinly veiled allegory of Medieval and Renaissance Earth.... An "America" in Toril could be interesting... *synapses firing* "Puritans" from Evermeet... Kender Mormons... slaves from the islands south of Zakhara... forces of Amn, Waterdeep, and Evermeet duking it out over the continent. Could be cool. I can hardly wait. (sarcasm) It's not likely, anyway, since there haven't been any new Maztica sourcebooks for quite some time.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 07-22-03, 09:08 PM	Originally posted by Ranger REG But I do. I like playing something along the line of Native American Indian counterpart setting. There are other examples of that on Toril besides what is found in Maztica.
Ranger REG 07-23-03, 04:21 PM	You mean Faerun? (Toril is the planet where Faerun, Maztica and other regions are located on.) Well, the barbarians like the Northmen I modeled them after the European/Scandinavian/Germanic counterpart. Elven cultures have a Celtic motif to it but it is still exotic. The Unapproachable East have that blend of Arab and Mongol nomadic culture, like the Kazhakistan regions.