Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moscone 08-12-05, 09:46 PM	Without turning this into a novel discussion, who would win between these 2 titans based on their fighting styles and their stats? Drizzt has enchanted swords, Jeggred heals. Drizzt has 2-weapon fighting, Jeggred has multiweapon attack. Drizzt is nimble, Jeggred is Large size and has greater reach. Drizzt can pinpoint an opponent's vitals, Jeggred is pure ferocity. Let the speculation begin. I'm not sure, but I believe Jeggred's stats appeared in a previous issue of Dragon Magazine, otherwise look at the draegloth's stats in Monsters of Faerun or Champions of Ruin. Drizzt's stats can be found in the FRCS book. Let the speculation begin. :fight!:
Grishnor 08-12-05, 10:52 PM	never heard of Jeggred but in the past 2 weeks I've read every single Drizzt book that has been published so I'de put my money on Drizzt right now. You say Jeggred has sheer ferocity, well isn't that exactly what Drizzt has when he becomes "The Warrior Incarnate" or "The Hunter?" But thats the rambling of a fan. I have a few characters in my campaign that could tear Drizzt apart with "game mechanics," so maybe this Jeggred can take him if he's very powerful on the character sheet. But what made Drizzt so powerful wasn't the levels or feats but the natural luck, intelligence, and being god-blessed by Lloth.
Milak 08-12-05, 10:53 PM	Without turning this into a novel discussion, who would win between these 2 titans based on their fighting styles and their stats? Drizzt has enchanted swords, Jeggred heals. Drizzt has 2-weapon fighting, Jeggred has multiweapon attack. Drizzt is nimble, Jeggred is Large size and has greater reach. Drizzt can pinpoint an opponent's vitals, Jeggred is pure ferocity. Let the speculation begin. I'm not sure, but I believe Jeggred's stats appeared in a previous issue of Dragon Magazine, otherwise look at the draegloth's stats in Monsters of Faerun or Champions of Ruin. Drizzt's stats can be found in the FRCS book. Let the speculation begin. :fight!: Pllleaase.. Drizzt smacks around a balor every couple of years, you really think he would have a problem with a draegloth.
warlockco 08-12-05, 11:59 PM	Moot point, Jeggred is dead.
Darrian 08-12-05, 11:59 PM	In Forgotten Realms there is one rule you can always count on. Good guys ALWAYS win! Bet on the good guy. This is such a sure thing Vegas would not even place odds. Darrian
xnsdvd 08-13-05, 02:45 AM	If you ask me, Jeggred, the bastard son of a drow, doesn't stand a chance. He's essentially a 4 armed hairy troll with fire resistance. That can be killed with normal weapons. Guenhwyvar could take him!
Purple Dragon Knight 08-13-05, 03:11 AM	All in please! what? this is not poker? huh... m'kay... I meant all my money on Drizzt then! ;) (seriously... the dragleoth gets killed by a woman that would not, in turn, last too long against Drizzt...)
Zanan 08-13-05, 04:00 AM	Okay now ... let's bring some "sanity" in this. The scimitarwielder is a Ftr10/Rgr5/Bbn1 last time I checked, going by official stats. 124 HP, AC 23, Ini +9, 6 APR starting at +17, dealing some 1d6+6 dmg per hit etc.. Now, Jeggred is a draegloth Bbn9/Ftr4, 231 HP, Ini +11, AC 30, 4 APR (3x +33, on at +27) dealing 1d6+16 and 1d6+5 respectively ... It would seem that slaughtering orc warriors by the score and a handful of frost giants is something that Jeggred would do in his sleep too.
WVgamer 08-13-05, 06:09 PM	Most of Drizzt's battle prowess comes from the equipment he keeps. Take away the shirt, bracers, two scimitars, and Guenhwyvar, he's not all that special. Now, with Icingdeath, he'd have an excellent chance of winning due to the blade's evil outsider bane abilites.
Ripe 08-13-05, 07:00 PM	Oh come on, Jeggred should have died in book 5 of WotSQ series when he fought Ryld. He survived that battle simply because he had to due to some plot development. Now, if you ask who is better Drizzt or Ryld... I'm not sure, I'd say Ryld simply because I liked his character more than Drizzt's.
Xamo'das 08-13-05, 08:01 PM	Without turning this into a novel discussion, who would win between these 2 titans based on their fighting styles and their stats? Drizzt has enchanted swords, Jeggred heals. Drizzt has 2-weapon fighting, Jeggred has multiweapon attack. Drizzt is nimble, Jeggred is Large size and has greater reach. Drizzt can pinpoint an opponent's vitals, Jeggred is pure ferocity. Let the speculation begin. I'm not sure, but I believe Jeggred's stats appeared in a previous issue of Dragon Magazine, otherwise look at the draegloth's stats in Monsters of Faerun or Champions of Ruin. Drizzt's stats can be found in the FRCS book. Let the speculation begin. :fight!: If you go by their stats, Jeggred would tear Drizzt apart 99 times out of 100. Jeggred has better AC, more hit points, better attack bonus, and does more damage than Drizzt.
Lawless 08-15-05, 02:01 PM	That’s not even close to a fair fight. Take the listed stats and grab your dice and start rolling. Drizzt get’s owned everytime. Start calling him Meepo cause that’s how Jeggred’s going to treat him. Jeggred needs to roll a 1 to not hit Drizzt. DD can’t say the same. My money was on Ryld beating Drizzt going just off the numbers and to be honest Jeggred numbers wise has a good chance against Ryld so Drizzt just wouldn’t stand a chance. Jeggred’s got more HP better AC, attributes, and magic items, (except for Icingdeath). Heck throw in the kitty and Jeggred still has better odds. 2cps.
Moscone 08-15-05, 10:34 PM	I'd definitely have to agree on both- in a carefully plottedstory, naturally, Drizzt would win. However, in a game-battle, Jeggred would punch his claws through Drizzt's face, and rip his brain right through the front... After he rent Wulgar, Bruenor and Catti-Brie limb from limb. He'd be really spent by the end of it and Drizzt would be beaten-barely. Probably the first thing he'd do would be to cast the Guenwhyvar figurine into the Abyss. :devil:
BrianCritchley 08-15-05, 11:41 PM	given Jaggred's nature he'd likely blunder into a trap set for him by the companions of the hall and promptly get rtrashed by some sneaky tatics.
Xantriese 08-17-05, 09:41 PM	due to jeggerd's feral non tactical mind, he he would try to fight drizzt, i throw money on drizzt and his pals, even drizzt knows to surive is to realy win, he would bait jeggerd into a trap at the underdark gates of mithril hall, have some battle ragers hiding on the cave walls or have invis spells on them intill the dragloth got near, when the dragloth would run towards him, battle ragers would charge him and implae him with spikes <pwent going to take a spike helmet to the gut!! :D > of course jeggerd would throw them off him, but when its a rager you know there coming back, drizzt would ingage him in melee with his cat at side and his friends assisting him, jeggerd is feral in the mind but even he would know he would die with all of mithrill hall on there way to kill a dragloth, tho i would say jeggerd would win in melee due to the extra hp from raging... drizzit was trained by the best weapon master in the under dark, his own father for crying out loud, ryld would stand a chance against zak! - Also the write up for drizzt in the 3.0 books havent been updated, i found a 2nd ed hero of the realms book a year ago which gave drizzt +5 mithril chain mail, +5 icingdeath +5 twinkle when it came to 3.0 he got what eq players called "nerfed" plus with the 3.5 ranger if ra would redo drizzt with the 3.5 stats he and jeggerd would stand toe to toe.
Waylander 08-18-05, 12:09 AM	Depends... do you include the SR for Jeggred even though the CoR progression doesn't give drageloth SRs.... or do you do what is right and give him an SR cause he is technically a drow with a half-fiend template slapped on him. MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE.... SR that is.
Zanan 08-18-05, 09:02 AM	Don't think I saw a draegloth with SR before, but as has been said, the "product" of a drow and a glabrezu is very likely to have at least as much SR as a standard half-fiend. Companions of the Hall and all, folks, there is no need to put in more victims for the draegloth. If you want a duell between the drow and the draegloth, make it a duell. If you want to include the companions, you all but admit that Drizzt will most likely end up a looser, don't you? Yet, before another round of arguing begins, I hardly care about such hypothetical head to heads.
BurgerKing 08-18-05, 09:14 AM	What about this? Which group will win? Brunnor, Wulfgar, Catti-bre, Drizzt, Regis and Guen (the cat) or Quental, Dynifea, Halisstra, Jargged(spelling maybe wrong) and Phaerun? This would be a good fight.
Lawless 08-18-05, 11:30 AM	Sure if you put the whole of Mithral Hall behind DD then yes Jeggy dies. But keeping the original post and you have DD vs Jegs then DD dies horribly again, and again and again! Heck with the Companion in the Hall if Jegs kill DD first, and he's smart enough to realize he is the biggest threat, then he can probably take out at least half the rest of the Companions on his own. Look at the numbers Jegs has a better attack bonus and twice DD’s hps to start, Drizzt shouldn’t survive more than 4-5 rounds tops after that he cleans house with the rest of them. Of course to be fair if you pit all the Companions against Jeg then Jeg should get the WoSQ crew or at least half of them will do. Pharuan could probably bring half the Hall done on his own. Actually now that I think of it maybe only 1 or 2 others of the WoSQ crew since they are all CR 17-19, and Drizzt is the only one of the Companions on par with them. DD does great in novel I will not argue that but pitting his stats against Jeg’s is sadistically mean. I'm willing to grab my dice tonight to and roll out the battle. I let you know what I come up with.
Lawless 08-18-05, 09:26 PM	OK as far as I'm concerned Jeggred is just TOO powerful. I did 10 fights of just DD vs Jeg, (5 just fighting, 5 using DD raging), Jeg beats DD everytime single time never once does Jeg rage (I figured I'd what until Jeg is reduced to half hitpoint before raging which it never comes to). The only difference appears to be whether DD lived for 2 rounds or 3. Even with initiative DD never stands a chance. He hit Jeg with his first attack about 60% of the time he hits with his secondary attacks only like 10%). Jeg rolled a 1 once out of ALL the combats I ran. Next I did the 10 fights with DD and Guen (3.5 Guen) vs Jeg. The only difference is Guen dies next round. Next where 5 fights with the Companions and 5 with the Companions and the Bouldershoulders. 2 fights without the brothers results in Jeggred raging, 3 fights with the boys has Jeg raging, he still kills them all. I used Regis' gem twice to no avail. Three times I had Jeggy kill Catti-bre first which I figured would make both Wulfgar and DD rage at once and make them both stoopid enough to go toe-to-toe with Jeg and he kills them both promptly. Jegs isn't stupid he just wasn't as smart as the other drow he was accompanying (INT 12/WIS 13) so he always looked that way. Drizzt scored only 4 crits through-out Jeg scored 3 as did Bruenor, Wulfgar and Ivan 2. Jeggred is the man/demon/drow thingy. I honestly was expecting him to win most of the combats, especially the DD/Guen vs Jeg battles (didn't realize until I started the Jeg is effectively immune to Icingdeath's cold damage), and Twinkle did very little to help save him, but I honestly expected him to lose maybe half the Companion battles. But he won them all. That's just creepy, especially considering I tried to stack the battles against him, (trying to pick Pikel's druid spells). There's been much speculation about the 3.5 updates for Drizzt especially considering both possible level increase and magic item (Adon's shirt) updates, but until something official from WotC comes to print then whatever test I run as far as I'm concerned it's flawed and doesn't amount to anything. Sorry guys I like Drizzt too be Jeggred is out of his league. Maybe in week or so I'll do Ryld battles.
Dynneroth 08-18-05, 10:26 PM	Thanks for running the test. Too bad DD lost to the freak. I like the WotSQ novels, but I feel somehow dirty or tainted for liking anything about them. I am very much "The good guys should always win!" kind of guy, but there aren't any in WotSQ. Serves me right for even picking up the first one.
Preternatural 08-18-05, 11:54 PM	Is Jeggred's CR/ECL highter than Drizzt's?
Lawless 08-19-05, 12:06 AM	Is Jeggred's CR/ECL highter than Drizzt's? They're both CR18.
BrianCritchley 08-19-05, 01:52 AM	yeah but drizzt was created as a story char, not a melee powerhouse.
Preternatural 08-19-05, 02:55 AM	I think going by ECL shows the difference between them. CR is kind of funny sometimes. If Jeggred is a full Draegloth, that's a 10 level monster racial class, add in Barbarian 9 and Fighter 4, the ECL is closer to 23. Draegloth actually has ECL +4, +6 with racial hit die, before taking any classes or even the Draegloth monster class. So it might be even higher than 23. I don't have Savage Species which is the system I think they're using. If I'm reading the entry in Champions of Ruin right, someone correct me if I'm wrong, never was any good at game mechanics.
Lawless 08-19-05, 09:36 AM	I partly blame NPC wealth tables and partly maybe poor continuity on WotC’s part. Drizzt is supposed to be the man when compared with the rest of the companions yet Wulfgar and Bruenor have better primary attack bonuses, and Artemis is even better. Looking at the numbers you find it hard to believe that Drizzt should even stand a chance against any of them. Wulfgar can dish out damage but his AC makes him an easy target for DD. While Bruenor with his respectable AC, surplus hit points, and attack/damage bonuses should actually probably break even in the number of battles he can win versus DD. I already did mock battles between Arty and DD a year ago, IIRC Arty beat DD more like 70% of the time, even with Guen helping, that was partly because Arty has a better attack bonus and better weapons. When compared to Jeggred who is roughly equal to DD challenge wise, Jeg is equipped as a PC not an NPC, in fact all of the character from WoSQ are. So in that respect I think there is a continuity problem. WotC should probably put a little more effort into making sure the playing field is level in that respect. The NPC wealth chart for characters that are obviously adventurers doesn’t make any since. Drizzt and companies, are bonifide adventurers, whether originally they start out as PCs at an author’s table or not, they are PCs so why equip them like they are NPC classes?!?
Ripe 08-19-05, 10:36 AM	Pitting Drizzt and his friends against Jeggred and his company is apsurd. I mean, let's check who is who according to official material: Companions of the Hall Drizzt Do'Urden Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5 with LA +2 for ECL 18 Bruenor Battlehammer Ftr13 Catti-brie Ftr7 Regis Rog7 Wulfgar Bbn9 (?) Ivan Bouldershoulder Ftr8 Pikel Bouldershoulder Ftr3/Drd5 "Heroes" of WotSQ Jeggred Baenre Outsider6/Bbn9/Ftr4 with LA +4 for ECL 23 Pharaun Mizzrym Wiz14/Acm3 with LA +2 for ECL 19 Quenthel Baenre Clr15/Dis4 of Lolth with LA +2 for ECL 21 Valas Hune Rog10/Rgr2/Ftr4 with LA +2 for ECL 18 Ryld Argild Ftr15/Rog2 with LA +2 for ECL 19 Hallistra Melarn Brd8/Clr10 of Lolth with LA +2 for ECL 20 Danifae Yauntyrr Rog3/Clr13/Blk2 of Lolth with LA +2 for ECL 20 Add to that the fact that when Richard Baker wrote stats for characters from WotSQ he didn't equip them using NPC wealth table from DMG so they had equipment that a PC of their level might had (and then some), while Drizzt's equipment is created using that table. In short each one of the "heroes" of the WotSQ could walk over all the Companions of the Hall combined (except maybe Valas Hune).
Lawless 08-19-05, 10:56 AM	I know it's off topic but am I the only one who thinks Cattie-brie should be higher level than Wulfgar or at the very least break even with him. I mean she spent 7 years hunting pirates with DD while Wulfgar was stuck in hell. Just come across as too typical that the female isn't quite the warrior as the male. Well that's my equality for every one speech for the month.
Ripe 08-19-05, 08:05 PM	I know it's off topic but am I the only one who thinks Cattie-brie should be higher level than Wulfgar or at the very least break even with him. I mean she spent 7 years hunting pirates with DD while Wulfgar was stuck in hell. Just come across as too typical that the female isn't quite the warrior as the male. Well that's my equality for every one speech for the month. No, you are not the only one. It's even worse than you think because she was 6th level figter when she came onboard "Sea Sprite". So in the last 12-13 years that pass from Siege of Darkness to Lone Drow she got only 1 level. But hey, at least she got that one level - Regis, Bruenor and Wulfgar did not gain a single level during that period (OK, Wulfgar spent 7 years in Abyss, but he still didn't gain a level in those 5-6 years after his release).
Zevox 08-19-05, 08:59 PM	No, you are not the only one. It's even worse than you think because she was 6th level figter when she came onboard "Sea Sprite". So in the last 12-13 years that pass from Siege of Darkness to Lone Drow she got only 1 level. I'd have to agree as well: seven years pirate-hunting alongside Duedermont should put her at even with Wulfgar. Plus, as seen in some of the more recent novels (Passage to Dawn and The Hunter's Blades Trilogy) Drizzt has taught her some tracking and sneaking skills, plus some knowledge of animals, so I'd say she should have gained a Ranger level or two in there. But hey, at least she got that one level - Regis, Bruenor and Wulfgar did not gain a single level during that period (OK, Wulfgar spent 7 years in Abyss, but he still didn't gain a level in those 5-6 years after his release). Well, in all fairness, Bruenor and Regis didn't do much during those seven years - just sit around in Mithril Hall, then move out back to Icewind Dale while Bruenor's ancestor ruled the Hall - and there hasn't been an update to thier stats to account for the Hunter's Blades Trilogy yet, so them not gaining a level makes sense to a degree (plus I have difficulties wrapping my head around the idea that Regis is level 7 - on par with Cattie-Brie - as is...). Zevox
Mirtek 08-20-05, 08:38 AM	What about this? Which group will win? Brunnor, Wulfgar, Catti-bre, Drizzt, Regis and Guen (the cat) or Quental, Dynifea, Halisstra, Jargged(spelling maybe wrong) and Phaerun? This would be a good fight. Not according to pure game mechanics. The Companions of the Hall would get slaughtered every time, same with Drizzt vs. Jeggred would result in Drizzt getting killed every time. In a story battle it could get either way, but pure game mechanics Drizzt and hils pals have not chance I'd have to agree as well: seven years pirate-hunting alongside Duedermont should put her at even with Wulfgar. Actually no, it shouldn't. The average person is still first level, the really fearsome pirate might be thrid level. Neither would give Cattie much XP If you read DD or Artemis cutting their way through scores of enemy swordsmen, never forget that these guys would all be 1st level warriors if you go by game mechanics. No surprise that a 18th level char seems like a god of war while fighting them. If DD slays a thousand orcs, than that's a thousand first level warriors (which actually would give XP, as a thousand 1st level warrios at once are CR 20 no matter how stupid that is), but he would still need to slay around 10,000 until he gains annother level :D
Ripe 08-20-05, 09:47 AM	Actually no, it shouldn't. The average person is still first level, the really fearsome pirate might be thrid level. Neither would give Cattie much XP You're right, individual pirates would not give her much XP, but you are forgeting something else: Quest (Story) XP Capt. Daudermont and his crew got a simple quest: Keep the seas safe for passage and capture pirate ships. So every pirate ship that Sea Sprite captured (or sink) would give some Quest XP to each member of his crew. The amount of XP gained would depend on quality of opposition but I think it would be at least 50 XP for each crew member per each ship captured or sinked.
ElGrecoETAC 08-20-05, 09:52 AM	Stats-wise, I have no doubt that Jeggred could take out Drizzt and/or the Companions of the Hall. In "reality", I think the results would be different because the stats don't fully represent one's cunning, battle-tactics, etc. They certainly don't allow a character to showcase the advantages that superior intelligence and wisdom provide him with. Where did the fight occur? Terrain is very important in a battle, and Drizzt & Co. have shown themselves to be very astute evaluators of the battlefield. Did the Companions have prior notification of some murderous engine of death stalking the North? Are they prepared for this fight, or did Jeggred make a bee-line for their encampment one unlucky night? Would Drizzt even try to stand toe to toe with a meat grinder like Jeggred? In "The Thousand Orcs" series, he turns tail more than once when he realizes that he is in mortal peril that his fighting skill can't save him from. Catti-Brie might be a bit impetuous at times, but I doubt she would deign to stay in melee with such a monster. Her mantra, as in the past, would be "keep distance, shoot, repeat" with her deadly bow. Between Drizzt, Wulfgar, and Bruenor, were the Companions not able to keep Jeggred pinned down to a specific area? Simply with 5-foot steps, they should have been able to keep him rotating and exposed to 1-2 flanking shots per round. Through their efforts, Regis should have been able to get in the occassional sneak attack. Gwen would definitely help here, either as a distraction or as the one to pin (if lucky) Jeggred down for the rest to whoop on. Additionally, I can't see the Companions trying to hack away at Jeggred with full-melee attack option. Sure, Drizzt often goes into the Hunter mode when a situation becomes highly emotional/desperate for him, but I think it's more apropos/in character for his and the Companions' attacks to be measured at the beginning--seeking to evaluate the foe and find a weakness. They only seem to get kill-happy when dealing with dirty goblins or orcs. Thus, I see an encircling process followed by judicious single-attack actions with the move action held in reserve to either evade or to lure the foe into back/flank attacks. Jeggred's AC is 30, but, as alluded earlier, almost every Companion has a decent shot at hitting him once per round. The front-line Companions have enough HP to soak up 1-2 rounds of combat, even if Jeggred focuses on one of them exclusively (which would be a bit unrealistic, IMHO). If the Companions can maintain the ring of pressure on Jeggred, they should be able to take him out in 3-4 rounds of solid hits (and maybe 1-2 crits). The last round would likely be awful for them, as I would imagine 1-2 of them would die in Jeggred's death throes. That's not to say I think Lawless did a bad job with his tests. I simply believe that most D&D combat simulations probably don't allow for a character's skills to come out to the forefront. There's too many details to cover, after all. For that reason alone, I believe that both Drizzt and Ryld, with their cunning, expertise, and skill could ultimately (with a little bit of luck) prevail over Jeggred's pure physical force.
ElGrecoETAC 08-20-05, 09:54 AM	And, yeah, I believe that the above fight is tainted by the fact that the majority of the signature Companion gear (Taulmaril, Aegis-Fang, etc.)was short-changed by the NPC wealth rules. :rolleyes:
Mirtek 08-20-05, 11:34 AM	You're right, individual pirates would not give her much XP, but you are forgeting something else: Quest (Story) XP Well, if you give such kind of XP then maybe yes. But even so the quest should be too easy for a 9th and a 18th level character + a full crew of first level characters But in our games D&D is not World of Warcraft were you first slay 10 orcs and then get extra XP because you just slew 10 orcs :P Between Drizzt, Wulfgar, and Bruenor, were the Companions not able to keep Jeggred pinned down to a specific area? Simply with 5-foot steps, they should have been able to keep him rotating and exposed to 1-2 flanking shots per round. Through their efforts, Regis should have been able to get in the occassional sneak attack. Gwen would definitely help here, either as a distraction or as the one to pin (if lucky) Jeggred down for the rest to whoop on. Even so, it would be quite difficult for them (especially Regis) to just hit Jeggred, even with flanking bonus. Thus, I see an encircling process followed by judicious single-attack actions with the move action held in reserve to either evade or to lure the foe into back/flank attacks. Jeggred's AC is 30, but, as alluded earlier, almost every Companion has a decent shot at hitting him once per round. The front-line Companions have enough HP to soak up 1-2 rounds of combat, even if Jeggred focuses on one of them exclusively (which would be a bit unrealistic, IMHO). If the Companions can maintain the ring of pressure on Jeggred, they should be able to take him out in 3-4 rounds of solid hits (and maybe 1-2 crits). The last round would likely be awful for them, as I would imagine 1-2 of them would die in Jeggred's death throes. How should they do this? They only ability for the melees to avoid Jeggred full attack would be spring attacks and even so he could just ready an action to trip the first one that comes within reach and full attack him anyway. I am not sure they even have spring attack. And IIRC Jeggred also has reach, making it even more deadly.
Lawless 08-20-05, 12:11 PM	In the Companion battles I tried various tactics, could they have been flawed? Sure but I did try things other than everybody piling on and trading blows, and while terrain and proper planning could be effective. Jeggred cranks out +16 (16 x 3 = 48 hp damage before rolling dice), damage each claw attack before rolling dice and a bite attack at +8, at +33 and +27 to hit respectively. He couldn't miss and if he got a chance which is why as I stated earlier in having Jeggred killing Cattie first would, let's face it cause Wulfgar and DD to rage and go toe-to-toe with him. The problem is that Jeggred not only has reach but unless he rolls a 1 he will hit whoever he attacks. Bruenor needs a 9 to hit him, DD a 13/11, Wulfgar 12/10, also those three were the only ones with a hope at all of surviving a full attack for one round, the others are not nearly so lucky. Jeggred having reach worked in his favor cause they would provoke AoO trying to move in and out. I tried even having Regis charm Jeg with his jewel but he kept saving. Regis needed a 20 to even hit Jeg much less do sneak attack. And he had no hope of surviving a full attack. I like Drizzt and company as much as the next but against Jeggred they'd be toast. Jeg has 2 claws and I only used one for his attacks.
ElGrecoETAC 08-20-05, 01:17 PM	Look, guys, like I said--this wasn't intended as a critique of Lawless' simulation. I offered this up as a way of asking questions and to make a couple of points/offer a couple of suggestions. Again, think about some of the things I brought up: 1) Would the Companions really go for some suicidal-bonzai-stand your ground at all costs action against Jeggred? a. Again, simply the judicious use of a 5-ft step would allow for at least half of the Companions to add that crucial +2 to hit via flanking attacks. b. There's other things Regis and Gwen could do that accurately mirror their described roles in combat; the Aid Another action, for example, still allows them a chance to move about, while adding precious to-hit or AC bonuses to the main melee characters. c. Sure, Spring Attacks would be ideal, but I never brought them up. They'd only possible for this situation if your 3.5 Drizzt used the extra Feat available to him to snag this up. 2) Would Catti-Brie really get within Jeggred's melee reach if she could help it? 3) I have no idea where you set up the fight and in what order of battle the Companions were in. Was it in the woods, in an open field, in Mithril Hall, in a swamp, or in a cave? Were the Companions caught napping, or were they out for the purpose of hunting Jeggred? Were they walking in a defensive formation looking out for trouble, or were they walking in a line? 4) Unless he was raging, would a DM be realistic in having Jeggred focus on one melee combatant while 2-4 other individuals whomped on him from his flanks? Sure, it makes sense rules-wise, but part of an RPG is playing people out the way they're supposed to. Heck, even if he was raging, there's no guarantee that Jeggred would murderously focus on one opponent. He might be just as likely to spread his attacks throughout the group, which would work to his disadvantage as the battle wore on. Jeggred is a canny freak, but he can often be lured into doing things that aren't in his best interests. I'm not saying that the Companions wouldn't have casualties. I simply don't think it's as cut-and-dry an affair when you apply both their penchant for tactics and teamwork and Jeggred's personality traits in the fight.
Ripe 08-21-05, 10:11 AM	Well, if you give such kind of XP then maybe yes. But even so the quest should be too easy for a 9th and a 18th level character + a full crew of first level characters But in our games D&D is not World of Warcraft were you first slay 10 orcs and then get extra XP because you just slew 10 orcs :P Of course I'm giving story XP. In fact in campaign I'm running Quest XP is the ONLY XP my players get. I never liked the idea of giving XP for killing opponents. But that is beside the point. And that is hardly the same situation as in WoW. "Sea Sprite" is specificaly built and equiped as a pirate hunter. Capt. Daudermont is selected as best captain to be in comand of "Sea Sprite". And the only reason "Sea Sprite" is sailing the Trackless Sea is to destroy pirate vessels. Destroying the pirates is Capt. Daudermont and "Sea Sprites" QUEST so they are entitled to Quest XP (at least in my oppinion, but you may check page 40 of DMG 3.5 under Story awards). The amount of that award is certainly up to DM, but you should remember that to destroy a pirate ship takes more than just hacking and slashing pirate crew - you have to first maneuver your ship so you can board them. And that amount is reducing with a passage of years because pirates learn that it's best to stay in port when "Sea Sprite" came to their vicinity. P.S. Remember that in 2nd ed. if you were a fighter you get a bonus XP for each creature killed in the amount of 10 XP per HD of that creature so I think that they used that in WoW.
Ripe 08-21-05, 10:18 AM	a. Again, simply the judicious use of a 5-ft step would allow for at least half of the Companions to add that crucial +2 to hit via flanking attacks. What +2 to hit via flanking attack? Jeggred is 9th level Barbarian (among other things) so he has Improved Uncanny Dodge so he cannot be flanked and he can be sneak attacked only by a 13th level or higher rogue.
ElGrecoETAC 08-21-05, 11:42 AM	Ah, thanks for that reminder. I knew I was forgetting something! :)
Crust 08-21-05, 01:36 PM	Drizzt's battle prowess comes from RAS, the same way Jeggred's sorry fate comes from a team of authors (or perhaps just Paul Kemp). If Drizzt and Jeggred were nothing more than stat blocks in a sourcebook, I'd put my money on Jeggred. However, knowing what I know, I can't help but see Drizzt winning.
Lawless 08-21-05, 04:02 PM	I apologize if I came across as defensive ElGreco that was not my intent. I was just explaining that I did try something other than everyone lining up and trading blows. The problem for the Companions is that they actually had to try just to score a hit on Jeggred. While Jeggred only had to make sure he didn't roll a 1. Jeggred Improved Uncanny Dodge nullified flanking and his reach countered the 5 foot step idea, an opponent would have to stand right next to him and then only get a 5 foot step back while Jeggred's 10 reach allowed him to smack them from that distance. Jeg's AC makes him difficult to touch while the damage he cranked out insured that no one would last more 6-7 hits over the course of the fight. As I said I tried to stack the odd against Jeggred, limiting his full attack with 2 claws and the like and he still has more than enough mojo to take out the Companions. Out of the Companions Drizzt has the best AC 23 and against Jeggred's +33 to hit you see how a prolong battle will go. Jeggred has the AC, the hit points, and the attack bonus to risk a prolong battle against the Companions. Yes terrain can be factor which the Comp. typically use to their advantage against large forces not necessarily against a single opponent. Would Cattie-brie enter melee against him? No, but he wouldn't sit there indefinitely allowing her to pepper him with the occasion arrow that would actually hit him (she needed a 16 to hit him with her bow). Regis wouldn't even bother getting close, but Jeggred is a melee fighter once he's done with primary threats he'd play cat-n-mouse with the lesser opponents. Of course any author can write a story where the underdogs beat the savage engine of destruction that is the opponent, using the resources they have and cunning. But if a battle is forced the numbers pretty much say Jeggred wins. Heck I could write a story where Meepo could best Jeggred but going by the number it would never happen.
Mirtek 08-21-05, 04:21 PM	Would Catti-Brie really get within Jeggred's melee reach if she could help it? Well, of course, if you give catti a ring of flying and put Jeggred on an open field without cover for miles, I guess catti would win. :D If you try hard enough you might find an unfair situation the companions could win. But IMO that's not the purpose. If you want an real test you need an even battlefield. That means that catti has the means to try to stay out of his reach, but that Jeggred also has the means to eventually get her. Otherwise I simply suggest the following set up for the test battle: Jeggred is sleeping and Drizzt is standing right next to him, has initiative and is performing a coup de grace against Jeggred. Who would win :P P.S. Remember that in 2nd ed. if you were a fighter you get a bonus XP for each creature killed in the amount of 10 XP per HD of that creature so I think that they used that in WoW. No, they actually used a system similar to 3.X. If your level is to much higher than that of you opponent, you gain nothing. BTW, WoW is a lot like D&D in many points (I guess it's because the official Warcraft RPG is D&D, yes D&D not merely D20, they paid extra to get the D&D brand) Back to the point: Nothing against quest reward XP, but it needs to be a challenging quest. Otherwise you could say that Regis is epic levels from his quest to get up late and eat huge meals :D
Ripe 08-21-05, 04:50 PM	No, they actually used a system similar to 3.X. If your level is to much higher than that of you opponent, you gain nothing. BTW, WoW is a lot like D&D in many points (I guess it's because the official Warcraft RPG is D&D, yes D&D not merely D20, they paid extra to get the D&D brand) It was just a guess. I didn't play WoW. But if they used D&D than getting extra XP just because you kill something is stupid. Back to the point: Nothing against quest reward XP, but it needs to be a challenging quest. Otherwise you could say that Regis is epic levels from his quest to get up late and eat huge meals :D Nobody in his right mind would pay Regis so he could get up late and eat huge meals because they would go broke in a matter of days. :D Actualy I think that people of Ten Towns did that - they made him a councilor or something like that. This is slightly different because Capt. Daudermont and his crew are paid to hunt pirates by all Sword Coast cities. Also when they capture pirate ship they do not neceserily kill all the pirates (I'd say that they probably kill only pirate captain and his subordiantes so that majority of the other surender). And who said that capturing pirate ship is not a challenging quest. Defeating the opposing crew is just the end of it - they had to first find a pirate ship, identify that ship as pirate ship, then they had to catch it (even with Robilard's help pirate can still escape), close up and maneuver their ship so that they can board pirates and only then they got to fighting part. As the years go by their job increase in difficulty because most pirate's decide to stay in port when they heard that "Sea Sprite" is near, so pirates they capture are either very stupid or good enough that they think they could defeat "Sea Sprite".
Mirtek 08-21-05, 06:19 PM	And who said that capturing pirate ship is not a challenging quest. Me. At least if you can expect the pirates to not be higher than 4th level and you have not only a vessel specifically built to hunt them, a full crew trained to hunt them and most important an 18th and a 9th level character. Defeating the opposing crew is just the end of it - they had to first find a pirate ship, identify that ship as pirate ship, then they had to catch it (even with Robilard's help pirate can still escape), close up and maneuver their ship so that they can board pirates and only then they got to fighting part. Which is done by the grew and the capt. As the years go by their job increase in difficulty because most pirate's decide to stay in port when they heard that "Sea Sprite" is near, so pirates they capture are either very stupid or good enough that they think they could defeat "Sea Sprite". IIRC their quest quest is to keep the waters free of pirates, so if they stay all in port, then their mission is acomplished
ElGrecoETAC 08-21-05, 09:04 PM	If you try hard enough you might find an unfair situation the companions could win. But IMO that's not the purpose. If you want an real test you need an even battlefield. I'm not looking for unfair situations. I'm trying to rule out contrived situations. As I alluded to earlier, half the ability and success behind characters like Drizzt, Artemis, Ryld, etc., comes from their wits, smarts, cunning, and experience. A realistic simulation of combat requires a realistic battlefield shaped by one side or the other (or both). That's why I asked what situation the Companions encountered Jeggred in.
ElGrecoETAC 08-21-05, 09:06 PM	I apologize if I came across as defensive ElGreco that was not my intent. No worries. I didn't mean to sound upset--I simply wanted to make sure I wasn't being misunderstood. :)
hreslingozer 08-22-05, 09:13 AM	Are Jeggred's and Drizzt's stats 3.5? I think this would make a difference, especially considering a Drizzt rewrite with 3.5 in mind. I would be surprised if they kept his levels exactly as they are. After looking over Drizzt, I think he is a very poor build for a lightly armored skirmisher/fighter. He lacks spring attack and tumble as a skill, two feats which he could use to negate Jeggred's reach and full attack option. Give 3.5 Drizzt the following feats: delete: Ambi, Two weapon, as he gets that as a ranger (combat style) combat reflexes add: Spring Attack Greater Weapon Focus (scimitar) Improved Critical (scimitar) In 3.5 with rage, his attack routine becomes: Att: +23/+18/+13/+8 melee with one scimitar, or +21/+16/+11/+6 melee scimitar +3 of frost and +20/+15 melee defending scimitar, all with a threat range of 15-20. The defending property is useless, as is any other attempt to increase AC, as Jeggred hits so easily. At the start of the fight, if he has time, Drizzt should summon Guenhyvar to slow Jeggred down, then cast darkness and fairie fire. This would negate his miss chance, and Jeggred can cast fairie fire as well but can't beat Drizzt's SR. Jeggred has blind-fight, but will still miss on more than just a 1. Drizzt can spring attack, keeping Jeggred to just one melee attack each round, until Jeggred figures to ready a grapple. Even still, Jeggred will tear Drizzt apart. Drizzt just isn't built for a straight up brute fight. Of course, Drizzt can always just run away!
Ripe 08-22-05, 11:14 AM	Give 3.5 Drizzt the following feats: delete: Ambi, Two weapon, as he gets that as a ranger (combat style) combat reflexes Ambidexterity does not exist under 3.5 so it would be removed, but you cannot remove his Two Weapon fighting feat because he could use two weapons efficiently during his early years at Melee-Magthere when he was trained as a fighter. So you should replace Ambidexterity with Improved Two weapon Fighting.
hreslingozer 08-22-05, 12:53 PM	I deleted these from his fighter bonus feats because the ranger's combat style ability (2nd level) gives him this as a virtual feat. Esentially, he still has it. He already has improved two weapon in his description.
ElGrecoETAC 08-22-05, 12:54 PM	Are Jeggred's and Drizzt's stats 3.5? The article with Jeggred's stats is from Aug 2002. Was 3.5 out then? Drizzt's stats are definitely circa 3.0. After looking over Drizzt, I think he is a very poor build for a lightly armored skirmisher/fighter. He lacks spring attack and tumble as a skill, two feats which he could use to negate Jeggred's reach and full attack option. Well, that's the problem--he wasn't created using a build. His levels are designed to accurately reflect the path he has followed during his life. On top of that, his swords aren't properly represented, and some of his gear's not even listed (the Bracers of the Blinding Strike that he wears on his ankles, for example, or Adnon's shirt). Jeggred, on the other hand, has been loaded down with highly potent magical items that are tailored to his strengths (and appropriately so). By the way, I don't know what in the heck Bracers of the Blinding Strike would do if you wore them on your feet, but I would imagine that Drizzt would get at least the +6 AC bonus (not that it makes much difference against Jeggred, unless he's blinded or otherwise impaired). Perhaps a movement rate bonus might be in order as well, a-la Boots of Speed, to translate that extra attack speed going to his feet? Also, has anyone taken a crack at stating Adnon's "silk shirt" armor? Of course, Drizzt can always just run away! Yeah, he's shown he's no fool when it comes to living to fight another day! :D
hreslingozer 08-22-05, 03:21 PM	I think my build would equally reflect his development. The Bracers of Blinding Strike, if Drizzt has them, grant: +6 armor bonus (which does nothing for Drizzt, as it doesn't stack) Improved Initiative Feat One extra attack at full attack bonus, as if hasted I have no idea what Adnon's shirt does. If he doesn't have the equipment he should have, he's not properly balanced with Jeggred by wealth. Lets look at magic. Jeggred: Bracers ; 102,000 Belt of Power; 48,000 Amulet; 86,000 Piwafwi: 20,000 Ring; 18,000 Total 274,000 Wealth he should have as an NPC for 23 ECL: 290,000 Wealth as a percent of total maximum: 94.5% Drizzt: +4 mithril chainmail 17,100 ;+3 frost scimitar 32,000 ;+2 defending scimitar 8,000; figurine of wondrous power 15,000 Total:82,100 Wealth he should have as an NPC for 18 ECL: 130,000 Wealth as a percent of total maximum: 63.1% So, let’s bring Drizzt in line with Jeggred, as reducing Jeggred’s special items will be difficult. There’s 40, 820 to spend on Drizzt in order to bring him up to 94.5%. Try to buy things that won’t affect his “flavor” (like a winged shield or such). I would add a belt of giant strength +6 and an amulet of health +2. This would make his hit points approximately 131 after the 3.5 conversion, and up his attack and damage bonuses significantly. But I’m sure there’s a better way to help even this out. If you treat Drizzt as a PC, and give him wealth accordingly, he should have 440,000 gp total. That would mean you could give him about 300,000 more in equipment. Methinks he would take on Jeggred pretty well after that!
ElGrecoETAC 08-22-05, 06:54 PM	I think my build would equally reflect his development. Drizzt didn't become a Ranger until he arrived at the surface. His meeting and training under Montolio was a key part of his life. He didn't just gain a set of class skills--he also gained a deity and a role in life.
hreslingozer 08-22-05, 11:23 PM	I agree with you regarding Drizzt's history. Would the combat style then be useless?
elvenwizard 08-23-05, 06:45 AM	In Forgotten Realms there is one rule you can always count on. Good guys ALWAYS win! Bet on the good guy. This is such a sure thing Vegas would not even place odds. Darrian Not necessarily true. In the battle between Ryld and Jeggred, I ask you, who had his innards ripped out? Admittedly, Ryld might not have technically been a good guy, but of the two... If good guys always won, then Halistra would have succeeded in slaying Lolth, and the Demonweb would be short one spider-goddess. Instead, she is first turned back to the worship of the Spider Queen, and then turned into an unholy, undead, instrument of bloody vengance. Good guys do NOT always win.
warlockco 08-23-05, 06:59 AM	If you treat Drizzt as a PC, and give him wealth accordingly, he should have 440,000 gp total. That would mean you could give him about 300,000 more in equipment. Methinks he would take on Jeggred pretty well after that! If you are gonna give Drizzt the same wealth as a PC, then you have to do the same for Jeggred, to make things fair.
warlockco 08-23-05, 07:01 AM	Are Jeggred's and Drizzt's stats 3.5? I think this would make a difference, especially considering a Drizzt rewrite with 3.5 in mind. I would be surprised if they kept his levels exactly as they are. After looking over Drizzt, I think he is a very poor build for a lightly armored skirmisher/fighter. He lacks spring attack and tumble as a skill, two feats which he could use to negate Jeggred's reach and full attack option. Give 3.5 Drizzt the following feats: delete: Ambi, Two weapon, as he gets that as a ranger (combat style) combat reflexes According to Drizzt's minis card he took the Archery Combat Style, not Two-Weapon Fighting.
ElGrecoETAC 08-23-05, 08:45 AM	I agree with you regarding Drizzt's history. Would the combat style then be useless? Unfortunately, yes. Build-wise it doesn't make much sense, but character-wise it remains faithful. As Warlocko alluded, it's likely that a future write-up will feature him as having taken the Archery combat style.
BadCatMan 08-23-05, 11:06 AM	I think a character who already has the combat style feats - such as Drizzt, who would already have Two Weapon Fighting - before taking Ranger 2 should be able to grab a higher level combat style feat instead. So instead of Two Weapon Fighting at Ranger 2, he gets Improved or Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Tempest would also be a good class for Drizzt. This could give him all the TWF feats, thus leaving him free to take archery style as a Ranger. And I think Icingdeath would be a icy burst frost brand scimitar, that also gives fire resistance or immunity.
ElGrecoETAC 08-23-05, 12:49 PM	I think that stacking previous feats with combat styles is a great idea--I might implement that in my own game. Thanks! :) I don't really see the Icy Burst quality as being all that necessary, IMHO. Frostbrand is fitting for Icingdeath, unless you feel like going all out and making it a special, semi-sentient, fiery creature/demon-Bane weapon. As far as the Tempest goes... Eh, I just don't see it. I think it's best when prestige classes have a flavor/background to them, especially in a campaign with so much background--like the Realms. Giving a PrC solely for bonuses, especially in this case (the Tempest being a tribute to/knockoff of Drizzt), just seems a little contrived. But... that's just me.
Critmaster 08-24-05, 01:40 AM	Oh come on, Jeggred should have died in book 5 of WotSQ series when he fought Ryld. He survived that battle simply because he had to due to some plot development. Now, if you ask who is better Drizzt or Ryld... I'm not sure, I'd say Ryld simply because I liked his character more than Drizzt's. That ****** me off when Ryld died! That dude was a bad MF and I was waiting for the day when he chopped off Jeggred's head and use it for a kick ball...didn't turn out that way :weep:
QuenthelsChampion 08-24-05, 01:55 AM	[QUOTE=Purple Dragon Knight (seriously... the dragleoth gets killed by a woman that would not, in turn, last too long against Drizzt...)[/QUOTE] HAHA! Oh im sorry you were serious. Whoops. *Possible Spoilers* Drizzt killed Quenthel when she was a level 10. Now she is a higher level then Drizzt. Quenthel took Jeggred and killed a few demons without her powers. Jeggred killed Ryld I wasn't very happy about it but yes it happened. Ryld could of easily took Drizzt that means Jeggred could. QC
BadCatMan 08-24-05, 05:08 AM	I think that stacking previous feats with combat styles is a great idea--I might implement that in my own game. Thanks! :) People like my ideas! Yay! Our campaign is full of custom rules (it seems I can take Dwarven Defender before level 8, possibly even exchange Fighter levels for DD levels), so I've learnt see rules as mere guidelines rather than inviolate laws. :) I don't really see the Icy Burst quality as being all that necessary, IMHO. Frostbrand is fitting for Icingdeath, unless you feel like going all out and making it a special, semi-sentient, fiery creature/demon-Bane weapon. I haven't read many Drizzt books yet (up to Starless Night) but I think he cold-critted Errtu in Crystal Shard. It was one hit to the knee, and Errtu was gone. IIRC, there was mention of cold damage. Then again, I don't recall much cold damage since then, so maybe not. Definitely gives some sort of fire resistance though. As far as the Tempest goes... Eh, I just don't see it. I think it's best when prestige classes have a flavor/background to them, especially in a campaign with so much background--like the Realms. Giving a PrC solely for bonuses, especially in this case (the Tempest being a tribute to/knockoff of Drizzt), just seems a little contrived. But... that's just me. Sure it doesn't have much RP value to it, but I think a character's personality could/should be divided into: * how they act * how they fight A character's personality may have little bearing on how they fight, and vice versa (I've been told that I'm completely mental when I'm fight, but I'm not at all like that normally), so while the Tempest and the Weapon Master PrCs have little character personality, they have heaps of combat personality.
Ripe 08-24-05, 08:39 AM	The problem with Icingdeath is that in 2nd ed Frostbrand weapon was +3 against everyone and +6 against fire-using or fire-dweling creature. So if translated properly to 3E it should be +3 frost fire bane scimtar, but you cannot apply bane property only to creature subtype. And Balor's should have fire subtype because they're discribed as having flaming body. That flaming body is the reason Errtu got big damage when Drizzt hit him - he was fire-using creature in 2nd ed so he was subject to additional damage from Frostbrand weapons. That does not explain why was that Glabrezu effected in the same way as Errtu.
BadCatMan 08-24-05, 10:52 AM	Its definitely got fire resistance; for example, Bruenor on the the dragon Shimmergloom, and in the foundary fires. And he only had it tucked in his belt. When, when, when is that scimitar named Icingdeath? Five books and a short story so far, and its still just 'Drizzt's scimitar'?
Zevox 08-24-05, 12:37 PM	Its definitely got fire resistance; for example, Bruenor on the the dragon Shimmergloom, and in the foundary fires. And he only had it tucked in his belt. When, when, when is that scimitar named Icingdeath? Five books and a short story so far, and its still just 'Drizzt's scimitar'? I'm fairly certain he named it either in the beggining of the Legacy of the Drow series or at the start of the Paths of Darkness series - I can't recall which atm, been a while since I last read them. Zevox
Ripe 08-24-05, 03:30 PM	When, when, when is that scimitar named Icingdeath? Five books and a short story so far, and its still just 'Drizzt's scimitar'? Didn't runes writen on it said that's it's name? I think Drizzt read those runes when he found it in those white dragons lair in Crystal Shard.
Jade 08-24-05, 04:17 PM	Well, I'm a huge Drizzt fan. I will always choose him over any other, win or lose.
Zevox 08-24-05, 11:19 PM	Didn't runes writen on it said that's it's name? I think Drizzt read those runes when he found it in those white dragons lair in Crystal Shard. Nope, there were no such runes over it. He named it after the Dragon whose hoard he found it in. Zevox
Lawless 08-25-05, 04:18 PM	Drizzt definitely need a 3.5 update and equally, if not more so, important, a timeline update. The things listed for him are out of date by both timeline and in edition. The ranger combat style doesn't really help him because by the time he became a ranger he already had TWF, at best with the loss of Ambi he could gain ITWF. Personally I think he needs at least two more levels, one of which I'd say would be barbarian, since he spent most of the Hunter's trilogy being po'ed. It would give him Uncanny Dodge, which is always a good thing and he could get Spring Attack as another feat. I mean how is it that Alusair jumps 10 levels after one trilogy but DD can't gain any levels after 3 trilogies?!? Don't get me wrong, I understand DD is typically pitted against low level orcs, but between the sheer numbers he's taken on at a time, plus the fact the even low level orcs are being lead by a higher level 'captain', also throw in the occassion potion drinking ogre beasty or citadel of frost giants and you can't help but give the man a few XPs for surviving. Much less surviving a boss fight even if he didn't win. Gear wise DD is definitely getting hosed if he were pitted against Jeggred. Jeg's equipment is more suited for a PC than a NPC, true if DD were fitted as a PC of the same challenge than so should Jeg. Drizzt's equipment as listed in 3.0 just doesn't stand up to what he's accomplish so far. Bruenor and Wulfgar have a fair chance to take him down, Bruenor more so. Before Arty got Charon's claw he had a better chance of beating DD than vice versa, now DD would be even more dead than before. In this case with the exception of Guen, DD"S equipment isn't as kewl as everyone else. Would really love an official listing for the bracers and the shirt. As for fighting Jeggred vs the Companions depending on how it starts out and terrain. Once Jeggred gets a head count he's going to figure the Drizzt is likely the most dangerous, simply because he's drow. This is also based on the likelihood that being Triel's son he's heard of the renegade and knows what he has done. After the first couple of rounds, he's probably would concentrate on the dwarf (Bruenor) because he's been the one connecting most often. While Drizzt dances arount to and fro, even if he had Spring Attack he can't hit Jeggred as often as Bruenor. Bruenor hits Jeg 55% of the time while DD can only do it 35% and Wulfgar 40% (pre rage numbers because neither DD nor Wulfgar would rage unless provoked; i.e. kill Cattie-brie, or if the were way low in hp and knew they were going to die). Jeggred hits everyone present 95% of the time (pesky 1s). Guen does have spring attack and would likely pounce and rake. Jeggred kills her in 1 round. Jeggred would probably look to take the beared gnome out quickly and riask at least one round of a full attack option against him. Bruenor has the HP to survive but he'd be hating life for sure. Bruenor falling is likely to make Wulfgar rage (30-50%) and he'd likely go toe-to-toe then, (he falls in 2 rounds). DD currently does not have Spring Attack, but he does have Mobility, the best he could hope for is to move in and attack and gain a +4 bonus to AC which would give him AC 27 vs Jeg's attack at +33. Even if DD had Spring Attack he'd move make 1 attack with a 65% chance to miss and move out of range in such a way that Jeggred has to move more than 5 feet and thusly can't make a full attack. But with 1 attack he is likely to hit DD every swing and remove 1d6 + 16 hp from Drizzt. If DD depending on how things go and the terrain DD will likely be able to keep that up almost indefinitely. If he screws up or something happens and he gives Jeggred the full attack option he is screwed. Now all the while this is happening Cattie has a 25% chance to hit with her bow as Ivan does with his waraxe. Pikel with his levels of druid can only slow him down and has only a 10% chance to hit Jeg with his club, as does Regis throwing his dagger. Neither IVan nor Pikel have Spring Attack so either one of them would be stuck for one round standing next to death personified. Plus if one of them died the other is likely to rush in get killed the next round. Jeggred's 231 hp gives him more HP without raging than almost any 2 of the Companions, nevermind when he does rage, or the AC problem or the attack bonus. He has more than enough hp to survive a protracted battle. The Companions have 2 serious 'flaws' going against Jeggred, they have only 1 range fighter of above average ability, and no serious spellcasters. It would take a timeline update for all of them and a 3.5 update for Drizzt for them to take Jeggred down. Every time he beat them he had well into the double digits of HP a couple of time he even had triple digits. OK done rambling, for now! :D
ElGrecoETAC 08-25-05, 06:45 PM	The problem with Icingdeath is that in 2nd ed Frostbrand weapon was +3 against everyone and +6 against fire-using or fire-dweling creature. So if translated properly to 3E it should be +3 frost fire bane scimtar, but you cannot apply bane property only to creature subtype. And Balor's should have fire subtype because they're discribed as having flaming body. That flaming body is the reason Errtu got big damage when Drizzt hit him - he was fire-using creature in 2nd ed so he was subject to additional damage from Frostbrand weapons. That does not explain why was that Glabrezu effected in the same way as Errtu. In 3.5 I have Icingdeath as a +3 Frostbrand Scimitar, with the Evil Outsider Bane property. It does everything advertised in the books, and assumes a bit of literary freedom in the description of its powers (how it treats Glabrezus and Balors the same, etc.).
Ripe 08-26-05, 12:55 PM	Nope, there were no such runes over it. He named it after the Dragon whose hoard he found it in. Zevox Thank you, I knew it had something to do with that dragon, but I couldn't remember what.
Freakboy 08-28-05, 07:28 PM	The problem with a Jeggred vs. Drizzt combat comparison, as has already been pointed out, is that both characters were written with very different design paradigms in mind. Jeggred is a min/max nightmare with equipment that well compliments his combat style. Drizzt was designed more with the intent of making him fit his "story". Further, and probably most importantly, Drizzt was designed using NPC wealth limits while Jeggred was not. This means Drizzt is using substandard equipment for a character of his level as written in FRCS. Jeggred by comparison is using equipment that is probably better than what the average PC at his level would have. For the same reason, Ryld would also own Drizzt in a toe to toe fight. This is purely a game mechanics issue. The WotSQ characters are written better from the standpoint of maximizing combat effectiveness. For those reasons, when simulating a battle, Drizzt always loses. In a story who knows, but since we can't really talk about novels that is a meaningless discussion. Using strictly their official write-ups, Drizzt will always lose to Ryld or Jeggred or likely even Valas.
Yokinobu 08-29-05, 03:27 AM	First of all, lemme say that Jeggred is a complete jerk and I hate him with the flaming passion of a thousand efreet. Ryld should have won. :) Beyond that, this is where I disagree with game mechanics. Yeah, Drizzt needs and update to both 3.5 and time progression, but most of all, I just can't see Jeggred getting a hit on him. When fighting defensively or something of that nature, every attack against Drizzt by Jeggred brings peril to the offending appendage. Even if Jeggred manages to plow through Drizzt's deflections and swats at his natural weapons, they would soon be cleaved by Drizzit's scimitars, or at least gashed all about. He'd have to grab an axe or something as he did before. If D&D didn't have that unbalancing problem with BAB quickly outpacing AC, Drizzt would be better off. And, if their was a conversion of Drizzt's seeming to have Weapon Finesse with scimitars into some sort of feat, that would definately help. Secondly, I can't see how Jeggred got to the level he is. I remember reading nothing of dangerous exploits that Jeggred participated in that would get him to that level. What could he have been doing? Going on a daily foray to combat young deep dragons? How about a healthy meal of weaponmasters every so often? You know how hard it would be for a creature of his ECL to gain experience? I figured such destruction having occured before the series would have been mentioned to help the reader get a better understanding of Jeggred's prowess, but the most you can discern about the beast early on is that he is a subservient brute, an intimidation tool, and a symbol of Lolths favor toward Triel.
iwpoe 08-30-05, 12:58 AM	Mechanics wise I don't believe it possible to cleave off an apendage/natural weapon.
warlockco 08-30-05, 05:51 AM	Mechanics wise I don't believe it possible to cleave off an apendage/natural weapon. Using variant rules there are ways. I think Unearthed Arcana might have them.
iwpoe 08-30-05, 10:42 AM	If I looked hard enough I could find a variant rule to allow me to do anything.
Yokinobu 08-31-05, 06:54 AM	Mechanics wise I don't believe it possible to cleave off an apendage/natural weapon. Yes, and that's why I said that this is where I disagree with game mechanics.
Banpai 09-17-05, 12:47 PM	Yes, and that's why I said that this is where I disagree with game mechanics. And the fact that even blocking one of the Jeggreds attack would send Dritt´t flying through the air. Now seriously Jeggred is truly great at close quarter fighting but with all those powers come certan weaknesses:no SR, a lousy will save (though his outsider hd help) , only ac 30, no combat expertise and no ranks in tumble so a defensive tactic might not be wothwhile, without using a weapon he has only 2 attacks with his claws and 1 bite(though through the bracers he actually has one more), no ranged attack forms so a flying sorcere above at level 10 with several wands of magic missile could easily deal him. Now the problem for this fight is that Drizz´t (and btw I think that he deserves at least 3 levels of Derwish, though with seven he could actually be a little closer the version in the books) is good against manny low level enemies, mages and in battles where he can use his wits (int 17!) and agility to his advantage. Its not that one is so much better than the other it´s just that one is a more general warrior while the other exels at meele combat and not much more.
Apostate 09-25-05, 10:04 PM	Without turning this into a novel discussion, who would win between these 2 titans based on their fighting styles and their stats? Drizzt has enchanted swords, Jeggred heals. Drizzt has 2-weapon fighting, Jeggred has multiweapon attack. Drizzt is nimble, Jeggred is Large size and has greater reach. Drizzt can pinpoint an opponent's vitals, Jeggred is pure ferocity. Let the speculation begin. I'm not sure, but I believe Jeggred's stats appeared in a previous issue of Dragon Magazine, otherwise look at the draegloth's stats in Monsters of Faerun or Champions of Ruin. Drizzt's stats can be found in the FRCS book. Let the speculation begin. :fight!: By stats alone, Jeggy would shred Drizzt to pieces bar rediculously unfavourable dice rolls for the draegloth. Novel wise... Drizzt would be the victor since he's more integral to a book series than Jeggred could ever be.
Cainan 09-26-05, 01:31 AM	Drizzt and his gang have just been nerfed way too many times since 2e. But then again, Drizzt was statted so many times. I believe in one of the boxed set books, or one of the thinner paperbacks or something he was statted as a 18ftr/16rng or something in 2e, something really high that actually felt kinda right. It also specc'd Zak was like 23ftr. I always thought Drizzt should have much higher fighter since that was what he was in the Underdark and he was pretty high level before he left. But every time they stat him, they just forget all the Underdark stuff and just try to balance him out and nerf the hell out of him.
warlockco 09-26-05, 02:43 AM	Drizzt and his gang have just been nerfed way too many times since 2e. But then again, Drizzt was statted so many times. I believe in one of the boxed set books, or one of the thinner paperbacks or something he was statted as a 18ftr/16rng or something in 2e, something really high that actually felt kinda right. It also specc'd Zak was like 23ftr. I always thought Drizzt should have much higher fighter since that was what he was in the Underdark and he was pretty high level before he left. But every time they stat him, they just forget all the Underdark stuff and just try to balance him out and nerf the hell out of him. Drizzt was a 18th level fighter that DUAL-Classed over to a 16th level ranger. So he was effectively a 16th level as far as the rules were concerned, since you do not gain the benefits of your first class until your second class exceeded the level you had in the first. Drizzt was an odd-ball. Since only Humans were supposed to be allowed to Dual-Class in 1E and 2E.
Kail 09-27-05, 02:03 AM	warlockco has it there. Not being human was the first of many rules for daul classing that he broke. So, the fighter to ranger XP change should have no baring on his actual level. He just hasn't faced enough high CR encounters to get much XP. Penalties for multiple classes at various levels don't help either. I think, for what he does, Drizzt is a well constructed character. By well constructed, I mean his stats and lack of min/maxing build the character we learn the back ground of in the novels. Only seen him in use in one game as a cameo anyway. The players were awed enough that stats didn't matter. Reputation alone carried the day for our fun loving Drow. Kail
Mirtek 09-27-05, 06:35 AM	and equally, if not more so, important, a timeline update. Actually no, his stats in the FRCS are already after the events of the Hunters trilogy Drizzt is high level enough just as he currently is. Even if he had killed the thousand orcs alone, that wouldn't be enough to justify a new level for him (remember that all these orcs are first level warriors)
Lawless 09-27-05, 06:56 AM	Actually no, his stats in the FRCS are already after the events of the Hunters trilogy Drizzt is high level enough just as he currently is. Even if he had killed the thousand orcs alone, that wouldn't be enough to justify a new level for him (remember that all these orcs are first level warriors) The FRCS came out 3 years before the Hunter trilogy, not after, and it his stats does not include the bracers on his ankles or the shirt cause he had to ditch the chainmail because it was too worn. His stats in FRCS are out of date and are just the 3e version of the same stats he's had for 10+ years. Granted most of the orcs are likely first level but some of them are higher since such a large number of orc are going to have a leader who'll be a level or two higher. Nevermind the frost giants he took on also, or his fight with Obould. Then there were the other drow he took on. Even with the multi class penalty for being drow he could have still risen a level or two over the years.
Mirtek 09-27-05, 11:01 AM	The FRCS came out 3 years before the Hunter trilogy, not after, While this is correct as far as real life dates are concerned, look at the FR dates. FRCS shows Drizzt in 1372 DR, the events of the Hunter trilogy happen in 1370-71 DR (the first two completly in 1370 DR and the last novels ends in 1371 DR). So despite being released 3 years prior to the novels in our real time, the events of the novels are 1 year behind in realms time His stats in FRCS are out of date and are just the 3e version of the same stats he's had for 10+ years. Actually that is not true. He was listed as a 10th level ranger in Hall of Heroes, then as a 16th level ranger in Heroes Lorebook and now as an 18th level character in the FRCS (note: +2 LA for being a drow, if he had the same stats as in 2e, he would be a 14th level ranger in 3e) Granted most of the orcs are likely first level but some of them are higher since such a large number of orc are going to have a leader who'll be a level or two higher. Nevermind the frost giants he took on also, or his fight with Obould. Then there were the other drow he took on. Even with the multi class penalty for being drow he could have still risen a level or two over the years Most opponents aren't worth any XP for Drizzt. Even the typical frost giant is nothing for Drizzt. While he may have gained some XP during the events, it's hardly enough to justify going from 18 to 19
Lawless 09-27-05, 11:32 AM	While this is correct as far as real life dates are concerned, look at the FR dates. FRCS shows Drizzt in 1372 DR, the events of the Hunter trilogy happen in 1370-71 DR (the first two completly in 1370 DR and the last novels ends in 1371 DR). So despite being released 3 years prior to the novels in our real time, the events of the novels are 1 year behind in realms time True FRCS assumes a general time period but it still uses old out dated stats for Drizzt. Who not only has typically not taken part in the usual significant FR events as other NPCs but was also for the most part depicted as being behind timeline wise as everyone else. The Hunter trilogy was an effect to bring him to the FR timeline. Most opponents aren't worth any XP for Drizzt. Even the typical frost giant is nothing for Drizzt. While he may have gained some XP during the events, it's hardly enough to justify going from 18 to 19 In general there not, agreed. However he has run into opponents who warrant a blimp on his CR radar. The potion drinking ogre from the previous trilogy, (which is even more recent than his listed stats), that gave him a rough time. The boss pirates of the trilogy nevermind whather name who was out to kill from the start. Heck Adon and the other drow (what was her name?) were definitely more than capable of taking him out. Just about anyone Drizzt didn't kill in a single attack has been a credible threat to Drizzt and as a whole since the reclaiming of Mithral Hall (at about where his stats as listed coincide with at best), should, IMO, warrant a boost to his level.
Mirtek 09-27-05, 11:38 AM	The Hunter trilogy was an effect to bring him to the FR timeline. And in the FR timeline he's 18th level, and that's after the last events In general there not, agreed. However he has run into opponents who warrant a blimp on his CR radar. The potion drinking ogre from the previous trilogy, (which is even more recent than his listed stats), that gave him a rough time. The boss pirates of the trilogy nevermind whather name who was out to kill from the start. Heck Adon and the other drow (what was her name?) were definitely more than capable of taking him out. Just about anyone Drizzt didn't kill in a single attack has been a credible threat to Drizzt and as a whole since the reclaiming of Mithral Hall (at about where his stats as listed coincide with at best), should, IMO, warrant a boost to his level. That's why the FRCS has him at 18th level in 1372 DR as opposed to 16th level that he was in his last 2e write up. And not everyone he can't kill in one blow is a real threat, and the fights in novels are written without any regard to game rules anyway.
Zevox 09-27-05, 04:28 PM	That's why the FRCS has him at 18th level in 1372 DR as opposed to 16th level that he was in his last 2e write up. Actually, no. In the FRCS he is statted at level 16 (Fighter 10/Barbarian1/Ranger5), but is CR 18 (+1 for being a Drow, though the remaining +1 is unaccountable, unless Drow were CR+2 in 3.0e). Since the FRCS was written before the Hunter's Blades Trilogy was, its impossible for them to have taken the events of that series into account for the write-ups within (just look at Obould's for proof of that). The fact that the novels technically occured in 1370-71 is simply due to Salvatore's decision to set them in that time period (unless I'm mistaken his tales almost always occur a few years before the Realms' "current year"). Thus Drizzt's FRCS stats are indeed outdated. Zevox
Chosen of the Dark Sun 09-27-05, 05:26 PM	Seriously, if Jeggred was as smart as Drizzt, I'd be putting my money on him. Jeggred would basically just ignore the majority of Drizzt's hits. Also, remember that the group Jeggred was a part of were all the nearly epic or epic champions of Drizzt's home city. True Drizzt is a warrior prodigy, and he's incredibly good, but I definately think that most of the nobles of Menzo's uppermost houses could take him, though it would be close. But DD is way smarter. Sure Jeggred would take Drizzt in just a few blows, but Drizzt would fight intelligently and use the terrain to his advantage. For instance, he'd escape, and while Jeggred was searching, DD would push a boulder on him, or drop from above and decapitate him. Stuff like that. As for Jeggred killing Ryld, it annoyed me since I liked the one more than the other, but thats not what bothered me. To me, Ryld's death felt contrived, like the author was saying "Okay, I know Ryld could probably beat Jeggred given the chance, but I want Ryld to die. How do I do that? Oh! I know! I'll have some random loggers minorly enchanted axe break through Rylds uber powerful and enchanted sword and kill him! No I don't care that there is no way that axe could logically break Splitter." However, this is discussion of novels and the writers choices, so I will desist before a WizO show up.
Raptor2019 09-27-05, 06:06 PM	wasn't he disarmmed of splitter, and the axe chopped through his breatsplate(which was also enchanted :rolleyes: )?
ElGrecoETAC 09-27-05, 07:42 PM	To me, Ryld's death felt contrived, like the author was saying "Okay, I know Ryld could probably beat Jeggred given the chance, but I want Ryld to die. How do I do that? Oh! I know! I'll have some random loggers minorly enchanted axe break through Rylds uber powerful and enchanted sword and kill him! No I don't care that there is no way that axe could logically break Splitter." In a small, non-sexual way, I love you for saying that. I can never forget how cheesed and incensed I was after seeing that event unfold... ...but only in the sense that, gaming-wise, the odds of a random axe doing away with Splitter would be ridiculously low... not in any sort of literary critique-ish way... :devil:
Davidw 09-28-05, 04:01 PM	I think the author was probably pushed into a corner in the sense that he'd been told Ryld had to die at Jeggred's hands/claws/paws and then was stuck for some way to bring it about. I'm sure he could have come up with something more plausible than the woodcutter's axe, though.
Mirtek 09-29-05, 05:56 AM	Actually, no. In the FRCS he is statted at level 16 (Fighter 10/Barbarian1/Ranger5), but is CR 18 (+1 for being a Drow, though the remaining +1 is unaccountable, unless Drow were CR+2 in 3.0e). CR, ECL, and LA are all different things. A drow has a +2 LA (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_leveladjustment&alpha=L) and a 16th level drow is actually an 18th level character. If Drizzt had the same level as in his last 2e writeup he would be a 14th level drow ranger. Drizzt in the FRCS is a 18th level character.
Davidw 09-29-05, 01:58 PM	I've always been confused about CRs and CLs and ECLs myself. If Drizzt has 16 levels and he's drow, that should make him CR17, right? 16 levels + 1 for being a drow = 17. But the FRCS has him statted as CR18. Is this just some kind of typo or has he got the extra point from something else?
Chosen of the Dark Sun 10-01-05, 10:58 AM	I've always been confused about CRs and CLs and ECLs myself. If Drizzt has 16 levels and he's drow, that should make him CR17, right? 16 levels + 1 for being a drow = 17. But the FRCS has him statted as CR18. Is this just some kind of typo or has he got the extra point from something else? It's a typo, it should read CR 17.
Davidw 10-01-05, 05:47 PM	So he's officially weaker than Artemis Entreri, despite always getting the better of him in combat? I guess that's more proof that statting characters from novels and expecting them to still be the same is never a good idea.
goblin3468 10-01-05, 08:12 PM	As the title implies, OMG!!! I DONT CARE ABOUT THE 'STATS' OF EITHER!!!! Come on, think about it from the books... Who would REALLY win after reading the books? Drizzt would slice'n'dice Jeggred before Jeggred knew he was in a fight! IT IS DRIZZT DO'URDEN!!!! Anyway... I can't decide who would win: Cattie-Brie or Wulfgar? Ivan or Pikel? (Their little fight in the thousand orcs doesnt prove anything.) Thibbledorf Pwent or Obould + Proffit + Jeggred + Icingdeath + Drizzt + Bruenor + CB + Wulfgar + Regis + Ivan and Pikel + Zaknafein + Belwar + Banak + Clacker + Torgar + Shingles + Montolio + Graul + Briza + Guenhwyvar + Tarathiel + Innovindil + Gerti + Aretmis Entreri + Shimmergloom + Heafstaag + Nanfoodle + Shoudra Stargleam? (This is an easy one, its Pwent) Pwent or Drizzt? Bruenor or Drizzt? Bruenor or Obould? Drizzt or Obould? Gerti or Obould? Belwar or Jeggred? Those are more realistic matches...
Mirtek 10-02-05, 09:04 AM	Drizzt has an ECL of 18 (16 character levels, +2 LA for being a drow) and thus is an 18th level character. CR, LA, and ELC are all different things and don't need to match. He's the same level than Artemis (18 character levels, +0 LA)
ElGrecoETAC 10-02-05, 09:25 AM	Pwent isn't really that tough. He was literally whimpering when Uthegental 'Armgo threw all his Battleragers off of him and got his mits on Pwent. Classic moment! :D
Luciver 10-02-05, 11:43 AM	Well, i think that Drizz will win easyly. When I look back on to the fight between Jeggred and Ryld, he only win because the luck was with him. Drizz, i think, is a better fighter then Ryld. So I think Jeggred will loos very quick. (It´s realy poor that Ryld died in the 5. Book because I like him much, but it was a good fight with a bad and in my eyes really stupid end for him.)
Davidw 10-02-05, 01:27 PM	Why do you think Drizzt will win easily, considering that Jeggred is far tougher? (Actually, Drizzt would win because he's a part of Realms lore and Jeggred isn't, but that's neither here nor there.)
Chosen of the Dark Sun 10-03-05, 11:31 PM	Why do you think Drizzt will win easily, considering that Jeggred is far tougher? (Actually, Drizzt would win because he's a part of Realms lore and Jeggred isn't, but that's neither here nor there.) Because, although Drizzt is fairly honorable, he is still drow. Considering how clearly Jeggred has Drizzt outmatched in sheer ferocity, there is no way in hell Drizzt would fight fair. As I posted earlier, he'd probably run away, and due to his far superior stealth capabilities, get the drop on Jeggred and either skewer him before he could react, or drop a really big honking boulder on the draegloth. In a straight melee encounter however I'd say, among my four favorite warriors: Drizzt beats Entriri Entriri beats Ryld Ryld beats Jeggred Jeggred beats Drizzt But if they had any room for strategic manuvering at all, I think all of them would outclass Jeggred. Lets face it, he's a moron. Well, i think that Drizz will win easyly. When I look back on to the fight between Jeggred and Ryld, he only win because the luck was with him. Drizz, i think, is a better fighter then Ryld. So I think Jeggred will loos very quick. Actually, I personally think it'd be a toss-up between Drizzt and Ryld. Ryld's tougher, but Drizzt's quicker. Ryld relies on a quick series of powerful blows, Drizzt relies on wearing his foe down with small, precise cuts. About even, I'd say.
Davidw 10-04-05, 02:36 AM	There was a long thread before about Drizzt v Ryld and I think the popular opinion in it was that Ryld would come out on top most of the time. Better stats, better equipment and overall a better fighter. So if Ryld could beat Drizzt, and Jeggred could beat Ryld, then it's a fair bet that Jeggred could beat Drizzt.
Thaingrim 10-06-05, 01:13 PM	amen , ryld seems quite like the paragon of drow fighters to me( good self control, keen senses, great mastery of his style and pretty witty as well) .... head to head drizzt bites the dust 9 times out of 10....
Kroppen 10-10-05, 09:26 AM	That Drizzt is not imortal. Look at Artemize Entri (?) he is the best assassin in the Realms. And he has survived for as long as he has. However, he does not like wizards. Because he know they have many things he can't handel. In the crystal shard he tryes to hide when a batlemage is out after him. If you put Artemize and a high lvl mage in the same arena the mage probably will winn (well, it depends, now last time I cheacked Artemize had this realy nifty glove...) But Drizzt does not go head on head on someone. At least not alle the time. Chosing a good place to fight, that is faverobol for you can also be important. (Say, a rogue does not fight inside a glad fortres with lots of light and no dark hiding places.) Bringing friends along is also an option. (I mean, nothing is like bringing an army to a duel of two.) And also, a lot of the people that Drizzt kills in the book might not be so high lvl. All those orcs he keeps slaping around, perhaps they where lvl 1 Comoners? Since he kills a 100 of them. Just because drist is lvl 16 or something does not meen that -EVERTY- NPC in the realms just got 15 lvls of experiense.
Kroppen 10-10-05, 09:44 AM	But how does Drizzt manadge the xp penalty? He must have had the barberian lvl's preaty early (because he was already the beast when he was wondering around in the underdark). I mean, does he not have -HUUUGE- xp penalties? (Drizzt would probably be better to make if the authors of the books where aloved to use prestige clases, but they only have axes to the base boks and the book his stats are standing inn.)
Zevox 10-10-05, 02:10 PM	But how does Drizzt manadge the xp penalty? He must have had the barberian lvl's preaty early (because he was already the beast when he was wondering around in the underdark). I mean, does he not have -HUUUGE- xp penalties? (Drizzt would probably be better to make if the authors of the books where aloved to use prestige clases, but they only have axes to the base boks and the book his stats are standing inn.) Simply because hes a novel caracter first, a set of stats second. The stats hes given simply reflect his performance in the novels, not vice versa. In other words, hes not bound to the rules for the current edition of D&D (especially since hes existed since 1e, and IIRC Salvatore still plays using 2e rules). Zevox
warrior-poet 10-10-05, 04:24 PM	Where exactly are Jeggred's stats? Dragon, Dungeon, WoTC web site? What issue? Are Ryld, Phaerun et al. also included?
Lawless 10-14-05, 10:01 AM	Where exactly are Jeggred's stats? Dragon, Dungeon, WoTC web site? What issue? Are Ryld, Phaerun et al. also included? The WotSQ crew stats are all in Dragon issues #302, 312, and 322, I think Jeggred is in 312 off the top of my head. Phaerun is in 302?!?