Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tiamat2 05-17-07, 11:09 AM	I don't really want to write a full negative review of a Wizards book on a Wizards board, especially if I'm a minority of one, but was anyone else as disappointed in this book as I am? I just finished the entire thing last night and as I put it down I realized that almost none of the lore is usable in the Realms. Furthermore, it presents the Drow as nothing more than a deranged monotheistic race of lunatics, a perception that years of Realms novels, modules, and core books has been fighting to change. There's even a paragraph in Drow of the Underdark saying that the FR presentation of a Drow pantheon is wrong! The Drow in the Drow of the Underdark book are simplistic and psychotic; they have none of the depth accorded to them in the FR setting. I realize that the book was written from a generic standpoint, but Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness were all written for generic settings and none of them actually "dumbed down" the creatures they were covering. Lords of Mandess, in fact, added tons of new depth and dimensions to the aberrations covered. Drow of the Underdark strips away all of the subtlety of the Dark Elves and leaves us with just a bad stereotype.
Alediran 05-17-07, 11:26 AM	I don't have read it yet, but if what you say is true then WotC should expect a little horde at their doors.
BrennonGoldeye 05-17-07, 11:59 AM	I'm going to get the book on Monday. I'll chime in then. :)
MarkusTay63 05-17-07, 12:00 PM	I'm going to get the book on Monday. I'll chime in then. :)You play the chimes? :eek: I give a mean cowbell! :D On a side note, I will be looking through the book over the weekend to see if its worth buying. Probably not, though. :(
Straploknight 05-18-07, 12:06 AM	I didn't take it that way, then again I like the crunch a bit more than fluff and I didn't see them as psychotic killers in the new DotU, The drow as presented in the new DotU seem just as most drow are, inordinately possessed with the urge to pull down thier betters and keep their lessers well under foot. It did far more justice to the drow than a certain dragon article some time ago which most certainly portrayed them as homicidal psychopaths hell bent on killing everything they came across from the time of conception till after they had rotted to dust.
Straploknight 05-18-07, 12:07 AM	You play the chimes? :eek: I give a mean cowbell! :D:( Always, more cowbell!
Dxzauvrinn 05-18-07, 01:36 AM	I thought the book was ok, but there was a lot of things it lacked, namely updated material on some of the great things that were in the original Drow of the Underdark. I'm still wanting a lot more, but this book did at least wet my appetite.
msatran 05-18-07, 02:25 AM	Well, my problem with the book is a little different. Check out my "Most Retarded PRC Ever" thread on the Dungeons and Dragons boards, not far from here. But, just to reiterate it here... What lunatic in their right mind would wield 2 spiked chains? And what lunatic in their right mind would be willing to teach this to others? And then, how CRAZY AND STUPID do you have to be to say "Yes, this is something I'd like for my life..." ...25 missing pints of blood later... "Hey! I can wield 2 spiked chains, Mr Master of Unusual Weapons! Can I get a bandaid now?"
Fingoldfin 05-18-07, 03:05 AM	Is there any new info on Drow cities in FR? Does it contain pre-made drow noble houses? Or is it yet another collection of new feats, spells, magic items, weapons, and prestige classes? I never thought that I would get sick of new prestige classes, but I am.
Zanan 05-18-07, 04:11 AM	Tooooo much Greyhawkian a look on the drow, near to no info on any drow deity bar Lolth, who is - for this book - still in Silence*; no info on existing drow feats from FR sources; no mentioning of whip of fangs / scourges of fangs (or where to find them (CotSQ web enhancement or Serpent Kingdoms, BTW) ... yet decent to very good PrC and some general explanations about drow life, culture et al. If only it wasn't so Greyhawk-centric. *There is no "aspect" of her given either (she's still "intermediate" - did the authors knew something about Lady Penitent ... not that it would matter in a Core book), though it was referred to in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits and would have been interesting to see too.
Dielzen 05-18-07, 06:55 AM	I was expecting a chapter on FR in this book, given how prevalent the Drow are in FR compared to other published game worlds. Just some stuff to update Underdark with new info like Lady Penitent, the end of her silence, etc. Instead, I basically have a book with the one chapter of PrCs/feats etc, and the rest of the book is useless :confused: I must admit the Kinslayer PrC is very nice, and some of the feats are very thematically well done. Beyond that, reading the book might actually hurt my Knowledge (FR) skill.
True_Atlantean 05-18-07, 08:00 AM	After reading these posts, I'm a little less excited about picking this one up. I've bought very few third ed books, seeing my second and first ed ones as far more useful and more value for money. I'll be picking mine up at the end of next week. Hoping that I can use something from it in my current campaign. If not, I'll continue with picing up my second hand TSR books from eBay.
Tiamat2 05-18-07, 08:20 AM	Is there any new info on Drow cities in FR? Does it contain pre-made drow noble houses? Or is it yet another collection of new feats, spells, magic items, weapons, and prestige classes? I never thought that I would get sick of new prestige classes, but I am. It contains information on a generic Drow city not present in the Realms (to my knowledge) and the noble houses of that Drow city. It has next to no FR information (not even sidebars that explain how this or that is different in the Realms; with the glaring exception of the section that explains why the FR's presentation of a Drow pantheon is a misrepresentation).
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 08:42 AM	Don't think I'll buy it, it's not Realms-specific enough, and they never said it would be.
Alediran 05-18-07, 09:20 AM	with the glaring exception of the section that explains why the FR's presentation of a Drow pantheon is a misrepresentation. THE IMPUDENCE :rant:
Zanan 05-18-07, 09:32 AM	THE IMPUDENCE :rant: One of the major let-downs of the book. The religion part - oh so dominant in drow society - while pretty expansive for Lolth lacks all other deities, the much sought-after initiate feats, as well as aspect(s) of the deity(-ies). Erelhei-Cinlu is the (as in, THE) ultimate drow city of Greyhawk, a.k.a. the Vault of the Drow. Matter of factly, I would be hard-pressed to name any other Greyhawkian drow city ... (There iss a strong rumour that the city was actually named after the initial letters of Gary Gygax's children, BTW.)
Tiamat2 05-18-07, 09:50 AM	Don't think I'll buy it, it's not Realms-specific enough, and they never said it would be. That's true. But Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness were never presented as FR-specific, yet did not contain material that outright contradictred or belittled Realmslore. I fear for this setting at times, though I guess the novels will always allow it to limp along (however horrifying the thought of the novels gaining more influence is).
Khaelieth 05-18-07, 11:26 AM	That's true. But Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness were never presented as FR-specific, yet did not contain material that outright contradictred or belittled Realmslore. I fear for this setting at times, though I guess the novels will always allow it to limp along (however horrifying the thought of the novels gaining more influence is). When WotC throw us a bone, they don't want to know what it tastes like ;p But remember that FR drow differ from Core drow, so that's probably why.
GothicDan 05-18-07, 11:46 AM	And all I can do is feel smug. Feel our pain. All I can say for FR-Elf fans, is Races of the Wild. I grow a little more confused every day with why they keep supporting core lore, when they DON'T EVEN PUBLISH GREYHAWK ANY MORE. It's USELESS to both people who play in FR AND Eberron. What's the darn point?
Alediran 05-18-07, 11:54 AM	What's the darn point? Avoiding Ed's regalies?
Tiamat2 05-18-07, 12:12 PM	Dan, were you recomending races of the wild or pointing it out as another example of a DotU type book?
GothicDan 05-18-07, 12:23 PM	Tiamat, I was pointing out another book absolutely useless to FR. (And Eberron, but that's a side tangeant.) Sorry for the confusion!
Tiamat2 05-18-07, 01:24 PM	That's what I thought you meant.
Lord Karsus 05-18-07, 06:29 PM	But Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness were never presented as FR-specific, yet did not contain material that outright contradictred or belittled Realmslore. -What exactly does the book say about the Drow pantheon?
msatran 05-18-07, 07:35 PM	Races of the Wild isn't useless. It has Elf Wizard racial substitution. :) That makes it worth it right there. That's a retarded set of class abilities.
XHereticX 05-18-07, 07:53 PM	My friend got it and said it rocked. But the fact that they chose to focus on GH drow kind of turned me off. Then again, there is enough on FR drow out there already that a sourcebook on them would be almost redundant.
Tiamat2 05-18-07, 08:49 PM	-What exactly does the book say about the Drow pantheon? "Elves revere Corellon Larethian above all others, but their religion is replete with other deities that are nearly as important. But for the drow, there is only Lolth. This comes as a surprise to many scholars, who believe the drow pantheon to consist of multiple deities. This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. But these deities, no matter how strongly an individual drow might revere them, are secondary at best, barely visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen. [This next statement is my favorite part of this paragraph, since it contradicts the previous sentence!] The drow honor them, but they do not consider them true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion - or fear them half as deeply - as they do Lolth. It is she and she alone who stands at the heart of drow religion." That's a pretty belittling paragraph in my opinion to the FR Drow pantheon. Even if its presaging events in the future that will make FR's Drow into GH's Drow (and I won't post spoilers here), its hard to even remotely imagine the person that wrote that paragraph is familiar with Eilistraee or Kiaransalee as they stand right now, much less the history of the Drow pantheon in Faerun.
GothicDan 05-18-07, 09:00 PM	That is absolutely terrible. When 22% of Drow are non-Evil in FR... Wow.
XHereticX 05-18-07, 09:37 PM	"Elves revere Corellon Larethian above all others, but their religion is replete with other deities that are nearly as important. But for the drow, there is only Lolth. This comes as a surprise to many scholars, who believe the drow pantheon to consist of multiple deities. This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. But these deities, no matter how strongly an individual drow might revere them, are secondary at best, barely visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen. [This next statement is my favorite part of this paragraph, since it contradicts the previous sentence!] The drow honor them, but they do not consider them true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion - or fear them half as deeply - as they do Lolth. It is she and she alone who stands at the heart of drow religion." That's a pretty belittling paragraph in my opinion to the FR Drow pantheon. Even if its presaging events in the future that will make FR's Drow into GH's Drow (and I won't post spoilers here), its hard to even remotely imagine the person that wrote that paragraph is familiar with Eilistraee or Kiaransalee as they stand right now, much less the history of the Drow pantheon in Faerun. May be a foreboding sign for the fate of the drow pantheon after smeman's novels are done;) And I actually prefer that the drow are evil and devoted heart and soul to Lolth, the only worthwhile drow deity in my opinion. And GD, those statistics...scare me
GothicDan 05-18-07, 09:42 PM	And GD, those statistics...scare me Why? They're not all GOOD. Just not evil. And, as Zanan has pointed out before, I wouldn't be surprised if a good number of your typical Drow crafters/commoners were Neutral, since their lives aren't as directly run by the machinations of the clergy. I loathe Lolth, really. Selvetarm I found boring. I liked Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, and probably liked Kiaransalee the most. More importantly, a new series of novels is coming out by Ed, which gives a picture of what Faerun's Underdark was ORIGINALLY supposed to be like, BEFORE the Drow... THAT'S going to be awesome. MUST read those novels.
Alediran 05-18-07, 09:43 PM	May be a foreboding sign for the fate of the drow pantheon after smeman's novels are done;) And I actually prefer that the drow are evil and devoted heart and soul to Lolth, the only worthwhile drow deity in my opinion. And GD, those statistics...scare me That is so bidimensional that I can't swallow it. If all drow where like that they couldn't be chaotic to begin with, they would all be robots who act in a programed way with no possibility of change (one of the bases of chaos). Diversity is the true path to a better story/setting.
MerrikCale 05-18-07, 09:44 PM	wow. a whole thread on the drow and not one word on Drizzt so I'll do it now..........Drizzt
Tiamat2 05-18-07, 09:48 PM	I fear xHereticX is right. I sense the end of my Realms involvement on the horizon, at least in terms of picking up new materials. I came back after they replaced Myrkul with [name must not be spoken], but I'm not going to keep buying products if they keep making things worse by killing deities.
GothicDan 05-18-07, 09:52 PM	Especially if it leaves Lolth as the only Drow deity left...
XHereticX 05-18-07, 10:03 PM	Why? They're not all GOOD. Just not evil. And, as Zanan has pointed out before, I wouldn't be surprised if a good number of your typical Drow crafters/commoners were Neutral, since their lives aren't as directly run by the machinations of the clergy. I loathe Lolth, really. Selvetarm I found boring. I liked Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, and probably liked Kiaransalee the most. More importantly, a new series of novels is coming out by Ed, which gives a picture of what Faerun's Underdark was ORIGINALLY supposed to be like, BEFORE the Drow... THAT'S going to be awesome. MUST read those novels. Hmm, Eilistraee is ok, she has her part. Vhaeraun is a Mask wannabe and I absolutly loathe Kia (go Orcus:D ), and Selvetarm was always a nobody. Lolth however, is *****y, random, sexy, perplexing, and just pure drowlike. I love that. A picture of pre-drow underdark would be cool. I have nothing against neutral or good drow, but being a predominatly corrupted and evil race, I would like them to at least revert a little back to that kind of image, and Drow of the Underdark provides that. I though, have always liked my drow as antiheroes, evil but lovable, like the way they were portrayed in War of the Spider Queen. Oh, any chance of seeing Malzikid in Lady Pentitent series. I bet he coudn't resist striking out against the drow deities at their current weakened state.
GothicDan 05-18-07, 10:05 PM	Evil but lovable...? I'm sorry, but people who genuinely 'love' evil characters, I can't feel are wired correctly. Finding them intriguing, tragic, interesting, etc., is cool. But 'lovable'? That's not how I'd ever describe any Evil Drow.
XHereticX 05-18-07, 10:10 PM	Evil but lovable...? I'm sorry, but people who genuinely 'love' evil characters, I can't feel are wired correctly. Finding them intriguing, tragic, interesting, etc., is cool. But 'lovable'? That's not how I'd ever describe any Evil Drow. That is what I meant, I don't love them like in that way:eek: I just find them complex and interesting figures, and I find drow like Drizzt kind of, boring. As for the drow pantheon dying out, I woudn't mind it, but I don't think you will have to worry about that as they are too important in the long run for the realms. In fact, I think that Lolth might be the one to die in the end, and her own plots will be her undoing.
GothicDan 05-18-07, 10:14 PM	I never found Drizzt boring. I just found him unrealistic, given his society (Menzo, being a Noble) and upbringing. Lolth killing herself would make me giggle maniacally for days and days.
XHereticX 05-18-07, 10:18 PM	I never found Drizzt boring. I just found him unrealistic, given his society (Menzo, being a Noble) and upbringing. Lolth killing herself would make me giggle maniacally for days and days. It would be interesting...to say the least. And then she would probably pull a Bane.
MarkusTay63 05-18-07, 10:22 PM	I can't wait to read Ed's novels, maybe he'll bring back the albino Drow. :D It contains information on a generic Drow city not present in the Realms (to my knowledge) and the noble houses of that Drow city. It has next to no FR information (not even sidebars that explain how this or that is different in the Realms; with the glaring exception of the section that explains why the FR's presentation of a Drow pantheon is a misrepresentation).I guess my mind is made up then, they obviously went out of there way to ALIENATE FR players. You know, a sidebar after each section, with how it relates to FR, would have gone a long way to appeasing FR fans. Bad enough they stole OUR book and made it core, but to turn around an slap us in the face with "FR's religious veiws are INCORRECT" just adds insult to injury. I'm not even going to bother looking through it now, since I don't use Drow in my games I would only be buying it for the lore, and obvioudly there isn't any. :(
XHereticX 05-18-07, 10:27 PM	I can't wait to read Ed's novels, maybe he'll bring back the albino Drow. :D I guess my mind is made up then, they obviously went out of there way to ALIENATE FR players. You know, a sidebar after each section, with how it relates to FR, would have gone a long way to appeasing FR fans. Bad enough they stole OUR book and made it core, but to turn around an slap us in the face with "FR's religious veiws are INCORRECT" just adds insult to injury. I'm not even going to bother looking through it now, since I don't use Drow in my games I would only be buying it for the lore, and obvioudly there isn't any. :( Hey, we do have underdark remember? And you can't say its "our book" because Drow were originally created in GH and there were actually quite a bit of interesting campaigns based on them from those times. Don't worry, FR isn't being alienated, its just going through a down phase currently, once Grand History of the Realms is out, that will all change;)
Tiamat2 05-18-07, 10:54 PM	Hey, we do have underdark remember? And you can't say its "our book" because Drow were originally created in GH and there were actually quite a bit of interesting campaigns based on them from those times. Don't worry, FR isn't being alienated, its just going through a down phase currently, once Grand History of the Realms is out, that will all change;) Underdark was one of the worst 2e conversions to date. It doesn't make up for DotU being almost anti-Realms. And I believe the poster meant that DotU is an FR book because the original Drow of the Underdark was an FR book (and pretty good, given its flimsy size and poor artwork).
XHereticX 05-18-07, 10:59 PM	Underdark was one of the worst 2e conversions to date. It doesn't make up for DotU being almost anti-Realms. And I believe the poster meant that DotU is an FR book because the original Drow of the Underdark was an FR book (and pretty good, given its flimsy size and poor artwork). Wizards is mostly focusing on core these days. I don't know if I can say that DoTU is anti-realms, I guess I will have to borrow it from my friend and read it.
BadCatMan 05-18-07, 11:06 PM	If it's any consolation, the new Drow Of The Underdark is even less useful for Eberron's jungle-dwelling, scorpion-loving, non-Lolth-worshipping Drow. It's odd that they'd would make a book that seems so actively not-useful to their two major campaign settings... No wait, this is WotC, that's not odd at all.
MarkusTay63 05-18-07, 11:17 PM	It's odd that they'd would make a book that seems so actively not-useful to their two major campaign settings... No wait, this is WotC, that's not odd at all.You said it. At least if they made it Eberron-freindly it would of made sense (although it would have led to even worse feelings), but making it core when GH is not even supported as a setting is just plain bizarre. The book is useful to the smallest group of players? What's that about? :confused: @Tiamet2 - You hit the nail on the head; 2e DotU (along with the Draconimicon) WAS FR, now they are both just floating in 'Core Limbo'. Sometimes I wonder if the people making these decisions have actually ever played these games. :thinks: If it's any consolation, the new Drow Of The Underdark is even less useful for Eberron's jungle-dwelling, scorpion-loving, non-Lolth-worshipping Drow.Is there a specific Eberron book about them? I only have the CS and the Sharn book (and love both, I'm ahamed to say). ;)
BadCatMan 05-18-07, 11:49 PM	Eberron's Drow were detailed in Races Of Eberron*, and probably a bit in Player's Guide To Eberron, Secrets Of Xen'drik and Explorer's Handbook. * No Eberron logo strangely. Is it meant to be core as a result? Ditto Monsters Of Faerun and Expedition To Undermountain. Was it really so hard to make a few "In Eberron" and "In Forgotten Realms" sidebars?
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 12:14 AM	More importantly, a new series of novels is coming out by Ed, which gives a picture of what Faerun's Underdark was ORIGINALLY supposed to be like, BEFORE the Drow... THAT'S going to be awesome. MUST read those novels. -Really? Where did you hear/read that? wow. a whole thread on the drow and not one word on Drizzt so I'll do it now..........Drizzt -...Thank you for that. ;) "Elves revere Corellon Larethian above all others, but their religion is replete with other deities that are nearly as important. But for the drow, there is only Lolth. This comes as a surprise to many scholars, who believe the drow pantheon to consist of multiple deities. This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. But these deities, no matter how strongly an individual drow might revere them, are secondary at best, barely visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen. [This next statement is my favorite part of this paragraph, since it contradicts the previous sentence!] The drow honor them, but they do not consider them true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion - or fear them half as deeply - as they do Lolth. It is she and she alone who stands at the heart of drow religion." -For the most part, I think that the quote is fairly accurate. The other deities are secondary to Lolth in the Drow pantheon. Lolth is alone who stands at the heart of the Drow pantheon. That part about the other deities not being given the same kind of devotion though...Uh uh...:nonono:
Tiamat2 05-19-07, 12:19 AM	-For the most part, I think that the quote is fairly accurate. The other deities are secondary to Lolth in the Drow pantheon. Lolth is alone who stands at the heart of the Drow pantheon. That part about the other deities not being given the same kind of devotion though...Uh uh...:nonono: Really? The Drow don't consider Kiaransalee and Vhaerun true gods? The same Drow that reveres Eil, actually devotes themselves to Lolth even more? And, of course, the first sentence: there isn't a Drow Pantheon, but just Lolth and some names that mean nothing? I don't think the quote is accurate at all. Lolth commands the most worshipers, but she is part of a pantheon that until recently was growing far more independent of her influence. I don't think too many Kia drow venerate Lolth at all and while Lolth is the head of her pantheon, that doesn't make the other gods secondary to her in the eyes of their followers.
Fingoldfin 05-19-07, 12:20 AM	Eberron's Drow were detailed in Races Of Eberron*, and probably a bit in Player's Guide To Eberron, Secrets Of Xen'drik and Explorer's Handbook. * No Eberron logo strangely. Is it meant to be core as a result? Ditto Monsters Of Faerun and Expedition To Undermountain. Was it really so hard to make a few "In Eberron" and "In Forgotten Realms" sidebars? I think the answer is yes. Sidebars use ink and paper. Wotc is getting very cheap when it comes to word count/page count. I am not buying the book. I want FR lore and it has none.
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 12:27 AM	The Drow don't consider Kiaransalee and Vhaerun true gods? -That was the part that I said "Uh uh" about. And, of course, the first sentence: there isn't a Drow Pantheon, but just Lolth and some names that mean nothing? -When you look at Drow society as a whole, this quote, while not 100% accurate, sums things up, for the most part. I don't think too many Kia drow venerate Lolth at all and while Lolth is the head of her pantheon, that doesn't make the other gods secondary to her in the eyes of their followers. -Not neccesarily, but the worshippers of those deities do (I think) recognize Lolth as the leader of the Anti-Seldarine. They do fear and respect her, as much as they revile and hate her. No matter how much you hate your boss, he/she still has X amount of power over you, and you really have no choice but to respect them, to a degree. Kiaransaleeans don't conduct their unholy ceremonies in secret because they like to (though, some might, who knows). They do so because Lolth rules over the majority of Drow society.
kave99 05-19-07, 12:44 AM	check out pg 220 ,they removed darkvision from 1/2 drow in the FR :confused: it's errata:eek:
jwanderer5 05-19-07, 01:18 AM	Monsters of Faerun doesn't have the Forgotten Realms logo on it, because it came out before the Campaign Setting did. FRCS was the first to have the logo. Expedition to Undermountain doesn't have the FR logo, because its not going to be a specficially FR book. Its going to give you Undermountain, but its connection to the rest of the FR is going to be very limited so as to allow it to be placed in any campaign setting. Does it hurt us FR fans? No. In fact it helps because it becomes a gateway for new people to explore the FR without having to delve fully into it. Same thing with Expedtion to Ravenloft and Greyhawk. And there is a reason why WotC focuses on Core products. Its because it is accesible to the greatest market. Nothing stops you from incorporating something Core into FR and vice-versa. Its just that FR (or any other specfic campaign setting) has much more fluff around their rules making it a bit harder to fit things easily into...say...a home-brewed campaign. Wow, ended up posting more then I origionally intended to.
MarkusTay63 05-19-07, 02:04 AM	In the case of MoF it's because that book IS core. They are the monsters of a particular setting, presented in a format for use in any setting, ala' the 2e Monstrous Compendium annuals, which featured 'watered-down' campaign-specific creatures for generic use. If MoF were FR-specific, then why the need for the "in the Realms" section after the entries, JUST LIKE THE GENERIC MONSTER MANUALS! You only find "in Eberron" or "in Oriental Adventures", etc... in CORE products. MoF is a CORE product, believe it or not. Races of Eberron is presented the same way, so that players from other settings can easily 'borrow' them Eberron. It's a pretty cheesy distinction, but it's there. check out pg 220 ,they removed darkvision from 1/2 drow in the FR :confused: it's errata:eek:So basically they gave us no love, belittled our pantheon, and then dumbed-down the (half) Drow abilities? If the book isn't FR, any Errata it may contain DOES NOT hold water in FR. As Ed has said, core products DO NOT overwrite established lore... PERIOD.
Zanan 05-19-07, 04:46 AM	I think the answer is yes. Sidebars use ink and paper. Wotc is getting very cheap when it comes to word count/page count. ... Hush hush ... you know, they have about two dozen NPCs fully listed in the book and all have a full description of what Light Blindness (Ex) is supposed to mean. :hides: (Others though have only half the special stuff a DM may want to read, e.g. the soulknife or the argent savant.) Anyway, it goes a long way explaining what that book is going to be like if you scan page 6. For there it lists the books required (the three Core ones*) and suggested (21** others), of the latter a massive 3 are FR lore. Though City of the Spider Queen and Races of Faerűn (mentioned later on) are not in the list, which might change the statistic ... ahem not that much. As GothicDan so ably said, it is a book for a Core setting no longer supported with nothing else but rule information. I would stretch that in saying ... it is like buying a BMW for a round course highway on a atoll right next to a continent full of highways. Just equate atoll with Greyhawk and continent with Faerűn. Sound machine, but useless for your visits to the continent - at least in many respects. *I would add the Spell Compendium as well as the Magic Item Compendium to this required list from now on. **Lolth wept.
Zandilar 05-19-07, 06:01 AM	Heya, I grow a little more confused every day with why they keep supporting core lore, when they DON'T EVEN PUBLISH GREYHAWK ANY MORE. It's USELESS to both people who play in FR AND Eberron. What's the darn point? Well I can answer that... Not everyone plays in the Forgotten Realms or in Eberron. Those who do tend to buy the setting specific books... All other books are supposed to be able to be plugged into any setting at all. (Personally, I'm of the "make things up" school... the Campaign world I'm working on at the moment has drow, for example, but not like Realms, Eberron, or Core drow - instead there are two "subraces" one that makes deals with devils, another that has interbred with demons over the millenia - there are no good drow, because those who repent actually become elves again. But I suppose that's beside the point.) Thing is, they need to publish setting specific source books - I'm really worried at the moment about the future of the Realms. The only Realms source to be published in the next little while is the Grand History of the Realms, all other game books bearing the Realms logo are... modules (I think Expedition to Undermountian counts as a module, anyway... err, wait a sec, it doesn't have the FR logo... :nonono:).
Borris 05-19-07, 08:58 AM	"Elves revere Corellon Larethian above all others, but their religion is replete with other deities that are nearly as important. But for the drow, there is only Lolth. This comes as a surprise to many scholars, who believe the drow pantheon to consist of multiple deities. This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. But these deities, no matter how strongly an individual drow might revere them, are secondary at best, barely visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen. [This next statement is my favorite part of this paragraph, since it contradicts the previous sentence!] The drow honor them, but they do not consider them true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion - or fear them half as deeply - as they do Lolth. It is she and she alone who stands at the heart of drow religion." What bothers me about that paragraph is that, even in Greyhawk, the drow have a full pantheon. It includes Lolth as the major deity, of course, but also Keptolo, Kiaransali, Vhaeraun, and Zinzerena. And all but the last two are venerated even in Lolth-controlled city. Keptolo even has a his greatest temple in Erelhei-Cinlu, a fact I'm sure DotU omits. You hit the nail on the head; 2e DotU (along with the Draconimicon) WAS FR, now they are both just floating in 'Core Limbo'. Sometimes I wonder if the people making these decisions have actually ever played these games. :thinks: I don't see what the problem is with using a 2e FR book title for a 3e Core product. I wouldn't be surprised if WotC published a book about giants in the style of Draconomicon and named it 'Giantcraft'. They have about that much originality when it comes to book titles. I'd buy it, though. I've been waiting for a book on giants ever since Libris Mortis came out. Actually, I retract what I just said about book titles. 'Codex Anathema' and 'Maelstrom' were good titles, in my opinion, but someone in marketing must have arrived to the conclusion that complicated words do not sell. And there are only so many titles you can come up with using 6th grade vocabulary.
Zanan 05-19-07, 09:37 AM	Well ... in essence, about 90% plus of anything that involves the drow has been published for the Forgotten Realms. Be that sourcebooks, rules stuff, or novels. In Eberron, the drow are also present, but neither that dominant nor in any way close in behaviour than we have known them to be ever since they came out. I for one - hands held up - have no clue about the number of remaining Greyhawk players or those using their own settings, but given recent events within Realmspace, it would have made far more sense to write another Drow of the Underdark in Ed Greenwood's style - i.e. FR based - and offering some minor (for nothing else would have been required) adaptation remarks for the other two settings. The whole bunch of drow-loving DMs and players will - without a flicker of doubt - be almightily disappointed by the content of the book (PrC aside) and I would hazard a guess that those in power may have shot themselves in the foot here. The Fiendish Codices, Lords of Madness, Draconomicon, and Libris Mortis - to name the other "monster books" - work perfectly well without a setting in mind, the drow play in a different league though. And that's as objective a view as you can get from a Kiaransaleen ...
XHereticX 05-19-07, 10:32 AM	I agree completly with Karsus on most of the points he made. Most people these days, even if they play in a CS once in a while, like making their own camapigns and Wizards put more money in generic D&D to allow more flexibility for ALL gamers. Who says you can't use generic in FR campaigns. Sure I woudn't take the lore contained in there word for word as FR canon, but there is lots of useful data within the books that can fit perfectly with a good realms campaign if you use your brain enough. As long as they still release more great realms products in the future once in a while such as Grand History of the Realms which is coming up, I coudn't care less what they do with 2nd edition conversions. And remember, WoTC is a COMPANY, their main goal is still to make money. If a product will sell better if it is a generic rather than a CS specific they will make it that way for the sake of business, don't expect anything more and just learn to adapt to changing times instead of denying the inevitable.
SALDAR 05-19-07, 04:35 PM	I don't think the quote is accurate at all. Lolth commands the most worshipers, but she is part of a pantheon that until recently was growing far more independent of her influence. I don't think too many Kia drow venerate Lolth at all and while Lolth is the head of her pantheon, that doesn't make the other gods secondary to her in the eyes of their followers. Actually it is quite accurate. In which non FR books have you seen the other drow gods discussed? All of the information on the other drow gods I know of has all appeared in FR material and is FR specific material. In GH there is only Lolth and since the DotU is a book for the default world then it should focus on the default world view of drow, which is completely different from the FR view of drow. As for only one city of drow in GH, I do not recall any mention of another drow city at any time or place in GH material. In GH the drow have not expanded throughout the underdark or in their worship of other gods as they have in FR and this has led to a very different world view of drow. DotU is not meant to replace the FR drow. In fact, it has absolutely nothing to do with the FR. I like the drow, as villains and characters. My longest running (and still semi active) character is a drow I created from the 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana and converted through the editions. Don't worry, WotC is not going to kill off the drow pantheon of FR nor are they going to change the whole FR world view of the drow. Relax.
Tiamat2 05-19-07, 04:48 PM	You didn't read the portions that I quoted, Saldar. DotU specifically states that there basically is no Drow Pantheon in the FR. It states that scholars of the FR who believe that the Drow venerate other gods are mistaken and that Drow don't consider gods like Vhaerun and Ghaunadaur true gods. That's completely wrong.
Straploknight 05-19-07, 06:15 PM	Evil but lovable...? I'm sorry, but people who genuinely 'love' evil characters, I can't feel are wired correctly. Finding them intriguing, tragic, interesting, etc., is cool. But 'lovable'? That's not how I'd ever describe any Evil Drow. Bu...bu....but, you don't find Dr. Evil lovable? Man, how can you not love a guy with a bald cat named Mr. Bigglesworth and has both angry mutant see bass as well as sharks with laserbeams on thier heads :weep: Although I'll side with you on the drow, however I'm thinking lovable is really short for "I find them, intriguing, tragic, interesting, etc".
Straploknight 05-19-07, 06:18 PM	wow. a whole thread on the drow and not one word on Drizzt so I'll do it now..........Drizzt that is sorta like the nazi thing, you know, when you utter Drizzt in the same thread as drow, its over; no further arguments, critisms or observations can be made, the thread is essentially dead.
Straploknight 05-19-07, 06:24 PM	More importantly, a new series of novels is coming out by Ed, which gives a picture of what Faerun's Underdark was ORIGINALLY supposed to be like, BEFORE the Drow... THAT'S going to be awesome. MUST read those novels. Pre-descent drow, or "I never really liked the drow and had never ever had the intention of using them in the realms, but thanks to a certain author and the machinations of corrupt business thinking I was forced to do so." If it is the latter, Ed of the Greenwood, you are dead to me now :mad: :P
GothicDan 05-19-07, 06:56 PM	Pre-descent drow, or "I never really liked the drow and had never ever had the intention of using them in the realms, but thanks to a certain author and the machinations of corrupt business thinking I was forced to do so." If it is the latter, Ed of the Greenwood, you are dead to me know The Drow were not meant to exist in Faerun. Originally, Ed had the concept of some of the Elven Noble Houses having underground fortresses and the like, but they were still 'Surface Elves' for the most part. I think I would have preferred this, myself.
soulthief 05-19-07, 08:48 PM	Book is decent. It was advertised as a core book. They did alright with the monsters and some of the prestige classes. As for FR content it lacked. Then again if they came out with a Drow of Faerun there would be such a group of anti drow nuts it would be insane.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 09:36 PM	I think people who would hate the Drow book are already here. I'd have preferred a Drow book that explained the FR Drow specifically over the crappy core one.
Zandilar 05-19-07, 09:45 PM	Heya, The Drow were not meant to exist in Faerun. Originally, Ed had the concept of some of the Elven Noble Houses having underground fortresses and the like, but they were still 'Surface Elves' for the most part. I think I would have preferred this, myself. This novel you're talking about isn't a Forgotten Realms book, though, right? I'm fairly sure it's not. (Just trying to clarify this, because I got confused there for a second, and if I did, I'm sure others might too.)
Straploknight 05-19-07, 09:56 PM	I think people who would hate the Drow book are already here. I'd have preferred a Drow book that explained the FR Drow specifically over the crappy core one. I guess the 2nd Ed DotU became the defacto core rule book for drow, despite really being for FR drow, and I guess this time around the lure of "Drow of the Underdark" as a title for a core book was just to compelling to ignore, hence the let down on the FR board (I dont really frequent the regular D&D boards so I haven't seen any feedback on DotU3.5) I'll take it for what it is and use what I can. I suppose it is valid in the context of your regular Lolth worshipping drow.
MarkusTay63 05-19-07, 10:29 PM	I have no problem with core books, and think that doing books for multiple settings and including sidebars liberally sprinkled throughout is a sound business decision an should keep everyone at least 75% happy. Creating a book that is useless to one of the two main settings, and alienates the other, is just plain stupid. The thirty pages they cut from the old 190 pg. books could of been filled with information that was setting-specific; I hope they saved a lot of money by cutting page counts because they are going to need it to make up for the thousands off books they are NOT going to sell to FR fans. I really don't get it, do they want FR fans NOT to buy books? :confused:
GothicDan 05-19-07, 10:39 PM	This novel you're talking about isn't a Forgotten Realms book, though, right? I'm fairly sure it's not. (Just trying to clarify this, because I got confused there for a second, and if I did, I'm sure others might too.) Sorry about that! No, it's not an FR book. But it's a great reference for wanting to analyze the original 'intent' of the Realms (such as people who claim that the Great Tree is somehow 'more like Ed's original vision,' despite the fact that Ed NEVER had an original vision for the planar setup.. Ugh).
GothicDan 05-19-07, 10:40 PM	I really don't get it, do they want FR fans NOT to buy books? They're appealing to those Greyhawk fans that they're.. No longer.. Supporting the setting of.. Oops.
MarkusTay63 05-19-07, 10:42 PM	Since Ed heavily referenced the 1e Deities & Demigods manual for all things devine, it stands to reason he used 1e's version of the wheel, and I believe he has said as much. Now if we just wait a few minutes Sage should be along to either verify that or correct me. ;)
MarkusTay63 05-19-07, 10:44 PM	They're appealing to those Greyhawk fans that they're.. No longer.. Supporting the setting of..But you have to give them credit... Hiring 'special' people to make decisions, its good to see they are equal opportunity employers. :D
GothicDan 05-19-07, 10:45 PM	Well, in his home campaign, he said that he imagined something roughly similar to Narnia's Wood Between the Worlds for cosmological affairs. A misty wood full of various colored pools, each of which led to various worlds that seemed (at least, from what I remember from the series) Prime Material Worlds. ... Sounds pretty analogous to the Astral Plane, to me. At least, it's more fitting than the Great Tree.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 10:48 PM	I have no problem with core books, and think that doing books for multiple settings and including sidebars liberally sprinkled throughout is a sound business decision an should keep everyone at least 75% happy. Creating a book that is useless to one of the two main settings, and alienates the other, is just plain stupid. The thirty pages they cut from the old 190 pg. books could of been filled with information that was setting-specific; I hope they saved a lot of money by cutting page counts because they are going to need it to make up for the thousands off books they are NOT going to sell to FR fans. I really don't get it, do they want FR fans NOT to buy books? :confused: But if it was made a FR book then would core people buy it? As it stands more people buy core books than FR books, so it would only be logical to make that change. They did it with many other books too and it turned out wonderful for WoTC. I still don't understand why you say the book alienates FR fans. With all the attention given on the drow in FR already, many people, including some of my friends who aren't particuarly interested in FR but want to incorperate drow in their games, like the change in direction. Still, you are right on one point, at least they could have made some FR specific sidebars.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 10:50 PM	But if it was made a FR book then would core people buy it? As it stands more people buy core books than FR books, so it would only be logical to make that change. They did it with many other books too and it turned out wonderful for WoTC. And many of those core books SPECIFICALLY included FR material. Even the three Environmental books (Sandstorm, etc.) went as far as to include references to FR deities. Part of what made FR Drow so interesting to many is the fact that there WAS just more than Lolth, and her history as Araushnee, and her children with Corellon. It made the Drow still evil, but more believable and multi-faceted. I still don't understand why you say the book alienates FR fans. With all the attention given on the drow in FR already, many people, including some of my friends who aren't particuarly interested in FR but want to incorperate drow in their games, like the change in direction. Uh. Of course people who weren't interested in FR would like the change of direction.
MarkusTay63 05-19-07, 10:51 PM	It alienates because it goes out of its way to 'belittle' FR's Drow Pantheon. Nothing makes FR fans happier then seeing a core book call them 'misguided'.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 10:52 PM	Even Planescape said that the sods from Abeir-Toril were the least Clueless of the Clueless. ;)
XHereticX 05-19-07, 10:58 PM	And many of those core books SPECIFICALLY included FR material. Even the three Environmental books (Sandstorm, etc.) went as far as to include references to FR deities. Uh. Of course people who weren't interested in FR would like the change of direction. Yes, I do find the lack of sidebars funny, I will have to examine my friend's copy. Maybe wizards just ran out of space because they wanted to pack as much info in it as possible. They might have also thought that Fr fans were getting tired of the drow after an endless sea of Drizzt and etc and woudn't really mind if they educated core players a little more on our ebon-skinned friends. But I still think that people shoudn't complain just because one core book with ties to FR didn't focus on the setting. FR is not going to be alienated just because of this. Seriously, you should feel satisfied that FR is still a high enough priority for wizards to release lots of new products soon(including Grand History). Unlike Dragonlance, whose recent liscence revoke now casts an uncertain light on the question if future DL gaming products are even going to be released. Believe me, my friends over in that community actually have a reason to complain, FR dosen't.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 11:02 PM	But I still think that people shoudn't complain just because one core book with ties to FR didn't focus on the setting. FR is not going to be alienated just because of this. Seriously, you should feel satisfied that FR is still a high enough priority for wizards to release lots of new products soon(including Grand History). Unlike Dragonlance, whose recent liscence revoke now casts an uncertain light on the question if future DL gaming products are even going to be released. Believe me, my friends over in that community actually have a reason to complain, FR dosen't. So you're seriously expecting FR people not to complain when a core book SPECIFICALLY says "Ignore all of that FR lore," and WotC still expects us to buy it..?
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:05 PM	So you're seriously expecting FR people not to complain when a core book SPECIFICALLY says "Ignore all of that FR lore," and WotC still expects us to buy it..? drow of the underdark never denies the existance of other drow deities, it just makes the accurate point that compared to Lolth, their position in drow society is consiterably inferior. And WoTC obviously did not direct the book at FR fans, so they don't expect anything from us. And from what I see, many FR fans are buying the book anyway despite the "misguiding" lore.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 11:06 PM	No, it actually says the Drow do NOT consider them true deities. Did you read the quote? That's NOT the case at all for FR's Drow. And, again, 22% of FR's Drow do NOT worship Lolth. The fact that the pantheon can even support so many lesser deities shows that Lolth's dominion over them is not nearly as complete as it is in Greyhawk. The very presence of a prominent city like Sshamath, which seems to have endured throughout the years with little direct threat of Lolthites, openly, shows that the Drow of FR do not follow Lolth as unswervingly (in general) as in core. Where exactly are you getting the idea that 'many' FR fans are buying it? So far, it seems only like Tiamat and Zanan, on this thread.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:11 PM	No, it actually says the Drow do NOT consider them true deities. Did you read the quote? That's NOT the case at all for FR's Drow. The book is specifically directed at evil, lolth-worshipping drow. In Greyhawk mind you. The book was not meant to describe FR-drow in the first place. I just think that people shoudn't start complaining just when one core book on drow dosen't conscribe to the FR vision of it. You can just do what I do, take the good parts from it and ignore the rest, because it is NOT in any way FR canon.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 11:14 PM	I just think that people shoudn't start complaining just when one core book on drow dosen't conscribe to the FR vision of it. You can just do what I do, take the good parts from it and ignore the rest, because it is NOT in any way FR canon. You seem to be missing the point. No one asked it to conscribe to the FR vision of Drow. What they expected was not to be told blatantly that the FR vision was WRONG. For instance, Hordes of the Abyss sets some FR deities in the Abyss. But it doesn't come out and say "Oh, the Great Tree's lore is WRONG." If they had completely IGNORED Faerun, it would have been better. And for all intents and purposes, Greyhawk as a setting doesn't exist. They never even published an official setting book on it. Why in the world should it matter what Greyhawk's Drow are like when they only setting which has them and supports them currently published by WotC is FR?
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:20 PM	You seem to be missing the point. No one asked it to conscribe to the FR vision of Drow. What they expected was not to be told blatantly that the FR vision was WRONG. For instance, Hordes of the Abyss sets some FR deities in the Abyss. But it doesn't come out and say "Oh, the Great Tree's lore is WRONG." If they had completely IGNORED Faerun, it would have been better. And for all intents and purposes, Greyhawk as a setting doesn't exist. They never even published an official setting book on it. Why in the world should it matter what Greyhawk's Drow are like when they only setting which has them and supports them currently published by WotC is FR? Um, IMPLYING FR lore is wrong and actually saying directly word for word that it is wrong are very different things. DoTU never said that the FR take on things was wrong in the FR universe, it only said that generically, drow do not follow the FR way. It dosen't change ANYTHING for drow on faerun. And what is the Living Greyhawk Gazateer GD? :eek: That is the point, mabye wizards wants to make drow more popular in the generic setting, instead of adding another rung in the FR drow dog pile.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 11:23 PM	Um, IMPLYING FR lore is wrong and actually saying directly word for word that it is wrong are very different things. DoTU never said that the FR take on things was wrong in the FR universe, it only said that generically, drow do not follow the FR way. It dosen't change ANYTHING for drow on faerun. I'm sorry, but that's not at all how I (or others, apparently) read the quoted text. And what is the Living Greyhawk Gazateer GD? Something that no actual official fans of Greyhawk that I know of seem to be very happy with. That is the point, mabye wizards wants to make drow more popular in the generic setting, instead of adding another rung in the FR drow dog pile. Then they should probably actually support the generic setting more. You know, if they had made a nice Greyhawk Campaign Setting, and THEN a Drow of Greyhawk book (which this is), then it would have been more appropriate.
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 11:24 PM	For instance, Hordes of the Abyss sets some FR deities in the Abyss. But it doesn't come out and say "Oh, the Great Tree's lore is WRONG." -They'd be doing us a favor...:rolleyes: -See, these are the kinds of problems that having each setting in it's own, specially contained multiverse causes.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 11:25 PM	Shhh, LK! That's besides the point! ;) I'll just giggle to myself at Beshaba living in the Abyss in core.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:25 PM	-They'd be doing us a favor...:rolleyes: -See, these are the kinds of problems that having each setting in it's own, specially contained multiverse causes. so true.
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 11:34 PM	-Sorry, sorry. I just like to beat dead horses. PETUA would love me...:rolleyes:
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:35 PM	Shhh, LK! That's besides the point! ;) I'll just giggle to myself at Beshaba living in the Abyss in core. poor, poor interlopers
msatran 05-19-07, 11:37 PM	I don't like that we're being told that the world we play in is wrong either. I just think it's more offensive that they found a way for a character to wield two spiked chains. The thing is, that now, once again, they are forcing FR DMs to make a retarded retconn, and to me, that's not right. We can either say "Okay. This book is donkey dung" or we can pick and choose, and ignore the lore and use the mechanical stuff. I'm going for option two. Except for the PRC that allows the use of 2 spiked chains. I think I'll be banning that horror.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:40 PM	I don't like that we're being told that the world we play in is wrong either. I just think it's more offensive that they found a way for a character to wield two spiked chains. The thing is, that now, once again, they are forcing FR DMs to make a retarded retconn, and to me, that's not right. We can either say "Okay. This book is donkey dung" or we can pick and choose, and ignore the lore and use the mechanical stuff. I'm going for option two. Except for the PRC that allows the use of 2 spiked chains. I think I'll be banning that horror. Now that is more like it, don't argue, just adapt and move along. It shows self-control among FR fans.
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 11:44 PM	I'm going for option two. Except for the PRC that allows the use of 2 spiked chains. I think I'll be banning that horror. -Athrogate from Promise of the Witch-King uses two spiked chains! :)
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:45 PM	-Athrogate from Promise of the Witch-King uses two spiked chains! :) or are those morning stars?
msatran 05-19-07, 11:46 PM	You have GOT to be !@$!E@ing me. I now have to buy bad novels and allow this PRC? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAA!
Lord Karsus 05-19-07, 11:49 PM	or are those morning stars? -I seem to remember them having 'chains'. You have GOT to be !@$!E@ing me. I now have to buy bad novels and allow this PRC? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAA! -Well, Athrogate probably didn't have any levels in that PrC. And, the novel wasn't that bad. -Try not to have a stroke, though.
XHereticX 05-19-07, 11:50 PM	No, I am sure in the novel it said they were morning stars, and MS do have change.
GothicDan 05-19-07, 11:52 PM	*Comforts Msatran platonically, because he loves him in a platonic gamer fashion.*
msatran 05-19-07, 11:52 PM	Well, the problem with the PRC isn't actually a drow with this class. The problem is that you can do this out of the PHB. AS A DWARF. You can have Dwarf Ranger 3/Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Cavestalker 10. And he is magically retarded. Who cares about his Dexterity? He's got two spiked chains. Heck, kill the rogue levels, take Duergar Ranger 5/Fighter 4/Cavestalker 10, and then you can ENLARGE yourself, and have truly absurd reach!
GothicDan 05-20-07, 12:00 AM	Mmm, I love the smell of P-Owergaming in the morning.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 12:01 AM	Mmm, I love the smell of P-Owergaming in the morning. smells like dead fish to me:)
msatran 05-20-07, 12:39 AM	See, my theory is that if it's so hard to figure out that it's just beyond cheese, then you powergamed it. The problem is that this is A) Broken and B) Not hard to think of.
Tiamat2 05-20-07, 12:48 AM	Now that is more like it, don't argue, just adapt and move along. It shows self-control among FR fans. Only you are arguing and I still don't understand the point you are making. The book derides the FR view of Drow and then proceeds to leave it out. The latter would have been semi-acceptable (but strange, since the other books in this series have shout-outs towards the FR), but the former is absurd and difficult to understand. If the authors didn't understand the FR Drow pantheon, why discuss it? If they didn't want it to be in the "core" Drow, then why not leave it out? I don't see why attacking a Pantheon that is probably more popular than Lolth in one of Wizard's larger settings and most popular product lines shouldn't provoke some negative reaction by FR fans. And frankly, I'm tired of being told to adapt and shut up by people on these boards.
msatran 05-20-07, 01:00 AM	I'm in agreement with Tiamat here. Just because I HAVE a solution doesn't mean it's a solution I A) Like or B) Want to implement. This is sort of like being forced to eat Garlic when you know you're allergic and it gives you a rash and muscle cramps. You can't not eat it, but you DO have a rash and muscle cramps. This book was very bad. Plus, it gave us cheesy PRCs with NO downside. If you're an evil drow, you can use most of them. If you're a good drow in a standard D+D game, you can only use one! Guess which one! Two spiked chains! HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA! So once again I'll ask...did ANYONE playtest this book?
GothicDan 05-20-07, 01:22 AM	And frankly, I'm tired of being told to adapt and shut up by people on these boards. Ditto. People seem to think that just because something is newer, that we have to like it. I don't understand that concept at all (for gaming or anything else, for that matter).
msatran 05-20-07, 02:11 AM	It also has a colossally broken feat. Here it is: Staggering Critical: Any creature you critically hit is slowed for one round. The text reads "When you confirm!" Even if you don't double the damage, the effect STILL GOES OFF. This is colossally stupid. I am Ranger 11/Fighter 4/Dervish anything of Meilikki. I dervish dance past something. If I crit it, I pick a new target. If I don't, I beat on it until I slow it. Then I move on. This is TOTAL...MELEE...SUPREMACY. There's no saving throw. No anything. And because it's not the first round of combat, they can't even partial charge you.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 02:19 AM	You know what that Feat needs? That dual spiked chain wielding PrC!
msatran 05-20-07, 02:22 AM	I wasn't gonna say it, but scimitars are a touch better on that one, except, of course, for the reach.
Zandilar 05-20-07, 02:34 AM	Heya, And, again, 22% of FR's Drow do NOT worship Lolth. The fact that the pantheon can even support so many lesser deities shows that Lolth's dominion over them is not nearly as complete as it is in Greyhawk. The very presence of a prominent city like Sshamath, which seems to have endured throughout the years with little direct threat of Lolthites, openly, shows that the Drow of FR do not follow Lolth as unswervingly (in general) as in core. Let us put this into the correct context, hmm? :) These are Ed's exact words (November 5th, 2006), and where the 22% figure comes from... Zandilar, Eilistraee has always gained converts and made herself known to drow through dream-visions and personal appearances (usually dancing in moonlit woods). Many, many drow long to return to the surface and live among trees (it’s a race instinct, that some recognize for what it is - - whereas other drow just feel always unsettled and edgy, and usually turn this into fighting amongst themselves, and family and/or trading rivalries), and Eilistraee has far more worshippers than the drow who dwell under the firm influence of Vhaeraun or Lolth (who is by far the most powerful of drow deities) would have one believe. I’d say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerűn worship Eilistraee - - although I must again remind scribes to set aside any modern monotheistic thinking: in the Realms, the vast majority of intelligent beings worship many or at least several gods, NOT just one. Bolding is mine. "A little more than" 22% worship Eilistraee. That's not 22% who don't worship Lolth, that's 22% who worship Eilistraee. I couldn't tell you what the figures are for Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur, Kiaransalee, or any other Drow deity - as the question posed was only about Eilistraee. This quote is from the current DotU (copied and pasted shamlessly from earlier in the thread): This comes as a surprise to many scholars, who believe the drow pantheon to consist of multiple deities. This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. But these deities, no matter how strongly an individual drow might revere them, are secondary at best, barely visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen. [This next statement is my favorite part of this paragraph, since it contradicts the previous sentence!] The drow honor them, but they do not consider them true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion - or fear them half as deeply - as they do Lolth. It is she and she alone who stands at the heart of drow religion. Bolding again is mine. This is essentially saying that we should ignore Ed's words, and all the prior lore - because we "scholars of the Forgotten Realms" are WROOOOOOOONGO. THIS is why Realms Drow fans are ticked off.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 02:40 AM	So, Eilistraee has 22% (let's just use that, for now) of the worship of the Drow. I think it would be safe to assume that Vhaeraun has about the same number. Then let's say another 10% is made up of worshippers of Selvetarm, Kiaransalee, and Ghaunadaur. So, I think it's a pretty good estimate to say only about HALF of the Drow of FR worship Lolth as their patron deity. That's so at odds with what's written in the book, it's not even funny. And let's remember that even in Greyhawk, there was more than one god of the Drow - Zinzirina? (Zanan can correct me, there!), the Drow Goddess of Assassins. And that means even for core the books wrong, because, for the deity to have existed, the Drow would have HAD to have thought her to be a true deity. And I'll also highlight, in the above bolded part of Zandilar, it very much seems like it's trying to refer to the FR Drow pantheon, and NOT the core Drow pantheon.
Zanan 05-20-07, 04:05 AM	... Where exactly are you getting the idea that 'many' FR fans are buying it? So far, it seems only like Tiamat and Zanan, on this thread. I got it for free, since I did the revision for the book over at the German DnD-Gate. :evillaugh XHereticX ... if someone in the D&D-scene says Menzoberranzan, everyone, even the most removed Greyhawkian or Eberronian will know what we are talking of. I'd bet that quite a few will have no clue about Erelhei-Cinlu though, unless they have been around since D&D 1st. IMHO, drow and the FR are almost synonymus to one another, so re-creating the race for a nigh non-existent setting and partly quite contrary to what we know of the FR drow is energy wrong spent. Add to that a city that won't see any use in the primary setting of the drow, a city quite at odds with what we know of FR cities too, and you wonder who is expected to buy the book? 1/2 to 3/4 of it does not hit home with the greatest fanbase - not even mentioning the lack of deities and FR reference. Just MHO, of course. GothicDan ... the drow pantheon of Greyhawk includes at least Kiaransalee ("Kiaransali",*), Vhaeraun ("Vhaerun", Monster Mythology), Keptolo (*), and Zinzerena (*). *as of Dragon 298. Zinzerena got a mention in TDotUD, but more or less just the tale of her being a elusive heroine that was the reason for the drow gaining their SLAs.
GAAAHHHH 05-20-07, 06:24 AM	The underdark is a very big place. You are saying that Erelhei-Cinlu can't be put anywhere in the FR underdark? If not, can't you just rename it and use it as another drow city. It does have a lot of cool stuff. Plus, the Forgotten Realms have Underdark and City of the Spider Queen. Don't you count those as FR drow references?
Dielzen 05-20-07, 09:34 AM	I bought it, but then again, I have all but like six 3.5 books from FR/Core combined. I really like the Kinslayer PrC and like a few of the feats/spells -- rest = waste of my money.
Dargoth 05-20-07, 09:51 AM	Why do I get the feeling that the 3.5 Drow of the Underdark was written by the same authors that wrote that rubbishy Drow issue of Dragon magazine that appeared a couple of years ago. Which gave us garbage like the following: When a drow female gets pregnant and has twins one infant (still in the womb) will kill its sibbling and consume it :rolleyes: By the way is anyone else sick of Wizards robbing the Realms interlectual property and using it to plug generic rubbish? (Drow of the Underdark and the Draconomicon where FR badged source books in 2nd edition)
Alediran 05-20-07, 11:30 AM	The underdark is a very big place. You are saying that Erelhei-Cinlu can't be put anywhere in the FR underdark? If not, can't you just rename it and use it as another drow city. It does have a lot of cool stuff. Plus, the Forgotten Realms have Underdark and City of the Spider Queen. Don't you count those as FR drow references? Underdark was an update about the whole thing (very incomplete), not just about the drow. City of the Spider Queen is an adventure module wich doesn't even touches the two most famous cities (menzo and ched).
Soltares 05-20-07, 12:23 PM	You said it. At least if they made it Eberron-freindly it would of made sense (although it would have led to even worse feelings), but making it core when GH is not even supported as a setting is just plain bizarre. The book is useful to the smallest group of players? The book really didn't have much Greyhawk specific either, as the author himself mentions in various threads about it on ENWorld. Since the city described is off in the Underdark, it's not really setting-dependent at all. Please don't mistake a lack of FR information as 'support' for the Greyhawk setting, which is, and has been, dead for quite some time, with the last branded 3.x Greyhawk release being the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, six or seven years ago. Ironically, the 2E FR product, also named 'Drow of the Underdark', written by some dude named Ed Greenwood, listed Eilservs, Despana and Tormtor as 'known House names' on p 98, and this 'Drow of the Underdark' has feats for each of those three houses. Oh, look, also on p 98 of this FR product there is a list of 'known Drow cities,' and Erelhei-Cinlu is on the list! Yes, Erelhei-Cinlu originally appeared in the GDQ series, which was nominally set in Greyhawk, because the Realms didn't even exist yet, and Gary Gygax failed to peer forward in time and realize how many people he would be so heinously offending by introducing a race of spider-demon-queen-worshipping Dark Elves, and their subterranean city, without setting the adventures in a setting-yet-to-be-developed. The nerve of the man! And yet, apparently it was good enough for Ed Greenwood to adapt and incorporate into the Realms, so I don't see it being a monstrous offense against Realms-fans... can't wait to read Ed's novels, maybe he'll bring back the albino Drow. They get a write up actually, on p 118.
Khaelieth 05-20-07, 12:27 PM	Ironically, the 2E FR product, also named 'Drow of the Underdark', written by some dude named Ed Greenwood, listed Eilservs, Despana and Tormtor as 'known House names' on p 98, and this 'Drow of the Underdark' has feats for each of those three houses. Oh, look, also on p 98 of this FR product there is a list of 'known Drow cities,' and Erelhei-Cinlu is on the list! And yet, apparently it was good enough for Ed Greenwood to adapt and incorporate into the Realms, so I don't see it being a monstrous offense against Realms-fans... *Gasps* *Whacks with the Khae-stick* KARSUS! PUNISH HIM!
MarkusTay63 05-20-07, 01:07 PM	For the Elven Netbook, I am including Erelhei-Cinlu (sorry Zan) in the list of Drow Realms BECAUSE it appeared on the list in the original DotU. I will also include a reasonable explanation of why it is on that list (Ed's never wrong :P ), being that it is located in GH; In fact, I'm gonna give TWO reasons. ;) The fact that the 'Descent Curse' happened on Toril means that somehow, all Drow in the multi-verse have a connection to Faerűn one way or another. Since this occurred nearly 12,000 years ago, the incident happened LONG BEFORE any 'history' of ANY other setting occurred. You can check that HERE. (http://www.hobgoblin.org/chronology/chronology.htm) Abeir-Toril's history goes back (canon-wise) further even then Planescape or Dragonlance. They get a write up actually, on p 118.So they cover ED's Drow, even though they were never GH/Core? :confused: Unless they are the Mystara version (Schattenalfen), in which case they are not Drow, having NEVER been Dark Elves. They were a group of normal Sylvan Elves forced to live underground millenia ago. Curiouser and curiouser... :thinks:
GothicDan 05-20-07, 01:12 PM	Soltares, it's very hard to parse the intent of your post. Most of what I'm getting is that it's as useless for Greyhawk Drow as it is for FR Drow. So, let's burn it.
Tiamat2 05-20-07, 01:17 PM	I'm getting repetitive, but I'm not sure some people are understanding the point of some of the complaints. I'm not as mad that the book doesn't contain FR lore as its attempts to retcon or deride FR lore in the religion section. There are other technical complaints about the book (the Prestige classes and feats aren't that balanced), but I seldom read these books for rules anymore. The game has enough rules. I just can't understand the point of a core book handling the FR pantheon the way this book did.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 01:30 PM	I understand, Tiamat. In fact, I think almost everyone on this thread does, except for Heretic. :)
MarkusTay63 05-20-07, 01:46 PM	Plain and simply, just don't buy it. It's not relevant to FR, and we don't need it. Vote with your dollars, people. Don't except decisions made by suits who have never played the game. They have to understand that 'bottom line' doesn't work in this industry. GamesWorkshop is another giant in this genre, and they are floundering now because they lost touch with their core players, must of whom have 'jumped ship' for other systems. You can't keep charging more and giving less, thats all there is to it. We are not the average consumer (read: mindless idiot); most of the people who play these games are educated and have IQs well above average. We think about the products we buy, and all the glitzy packaging isn't going to hide the fact that it is horse manure.
Faraer 05-20-07, 01:52 PM	In GH there is only Lolth . . .The book is specifically directed at evil, lolth-worshipping drow. In Greyhawk mind you.In the World of Greyhawk, as seen in the D and T modules, drow worship many demon lords and other entities such as the Elder Elemental God. Lolth is merely the foremost among them -- perhaps less preeminent than in the Realms. I get the impression that this book presents basically the Gygax-Greenwood-Salvatore version of drow, as established by FOR2, but not exactly, and not the drow of Eberron or the World of Greyhawk either, but some new hybrid. Which may be odd, because it means no one with an established campaign can use the material as-is, but isn't it a similar approach to, e.g., the dwarves in Races of Stone? "This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. But these deities, no matter how strongly an individual drow might revere them, are secondary at best, barely visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen . . . The drow honor them, but they do not consider them true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion - or fear them half as deeply - as they do Lolth. It is she and she alone who stands at the heart of drow religion."In more than half the drow cities of the Realms, which are Lolth-ruled, this is reasonably accurate except for "do not consider them true gods" (though I'm sure some of them don't). Suggesting it's universal is, I'd think, just a mistake. On the off-chance that it's a retcon, we'll find out in the forthcoming Lady Penitent novels.So, Eilistraee has 22% (let's just use that, for now) of the worship of the Drow. I think it would be safe to assume that Vhaeraun has about the same number. Then let's say another 10% is made up of worshippers of Selvetarm, Kiaransalee, and Ghaunadaur. So, I think it's a pretty good estimate to say only about HALF of the Drow of FR worship Lolth as their patron deity.Because most worship more than one god, these percentages will add up to more than 100%.For the Elven Netbook, I am including Erelhei-Cinlu (sorry Zan) in the list of Drow Realms BECAUSE it appeared on the list in the original DotU.I don't believe the intention is that Erelhei-Cinlu and its houses are in the Realms; I can't find the reference, but I think Ed just included them in the lists through completeness.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 01:59 PM	Because most worship more than one god, these percentages will add up to more than 100%. Good point, Faraer. I, admittedly, am not terribly well-versed in the religious tendencies of the Drow; that is, whether they have a propensity towards worshipping (or just recognizing) multiple deities of their 'pantheon' (the Dark Seldarine).
MarkusTay63 05-20-07, 02:02 PM	I don't believe the intention is that Erelhei-Cinlu and its houses are in the Realms; I can't find the reference, but I think Ed just included them in the lists through completeness.Precisely why I will include it as well - I never said it's on Toril...... anymore. ;)
Faraer 05-20-07, 02:19 PM	I, admittedly, am not terribly well-versed in the religious tendencies of the Drow; that is, whether they have a propensity towards worshipping (or just recognizing) multiple deities of their 'pantheon' (the Dark Seldarine).Most of the drow gods are enemies of most of the others, and drow split their worship less than most races. But even fairly dedicated followers of drow gods will scatter some worship (laudatory or propitiatory) to others of the drow pantheon (even enemies of their patron), Faerűnian pantheon, elven pantheon, or demon lords.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 02:25 PM	That's completely new news to me, actually. Thanks, Faraer! ... And it also makes this core book, and the strange almost-monotheistic Drow presented in it, a little sillier.
Faraer 05-20-07, 02:34 PM	Why else would Ed remind us that 'the vast majority of intelligent beings worship many or at least several gods, NOT just one'? If the drow were pure henotheists, they'd be unlike every other intelligent race in Faerűn -- but they probably are the closest to monolatry, since the antagonistic drow 'pantheon' is more an 'array' than a typical pantheon.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 03:14 PM	Plain and simply, just don't buy it. It's not relevant to FR, and we don't need it. Vote with your dollars, people. Don't except decisions made by suits who have never played the game. They have to understand that 'bottom line' doesn't work in this industry. GamesWorkshop is another giant in this genre, and they are floundering now because they lost touch with their core players, must of whom have 'jumped ship' for other systems. You can't keep charging more and giving less, thats all there is to it. We are not the average consumer (read: mindless idiot); most of the people who play these games are educated and have IQs well above average. We think about the products we buy, and all the glitzy packaging isn't going to hide the fact that it is horse manure. Good idea! People just stop complaining. If you really want to tell wizards you are ticked just DON'T BUY IT. Maybe that will make them reconsiter. It is just one non-FR book, people don't need to make a big deal out of it.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 03:25 PM	Heretic... I'm sorry, but you're still sort of missing the point, it seems. It's not a matter of WHAT campaign setting it was published for (though, apparently, it's practically useless even for Greyhawk). It's a matter of the treatment of FR canon. I personally really dislike the "Vote with your dollars" method, solely. If that's really what WotC wanted us to do (... even if some freelancers have said this), then these boards wouldn't exist as a forum for discussing reactions to printed material.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 03:26 PM	Heretic... I'm sorry, but you're still sort of missing the point, it seems. It's not a matter of WHAT campaign setting it was published for (though, apparently, it's practically useless even for Greyhawk). It's a matter of the treatment of FR canon. If you can give me a specific example of how the books directly "mocks" FR lore then I might buy it.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 03:34 PM	... It has been quoted multiple times? Just because you aren't offended by the quoted material doesn't mean the rest of us aren't, remember.
Tiamat2 05-20-07, 03:35 PM	Good idea! People just stop complaining. If you really want to tell wizards you are ticked just DON'T BUY IT. Maybe that will make them reconsiter. It is just one non-FR book, people don't need to make a big deal out of it. Reconsider what? Publishing it? Its already published. If you don't think the passages quoted earlier about the FR Pantheon mock FR canon, then I don't know what to say. If you are just trying to deride people for complaining, then I'm also not sure what to say.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 03:39 PM	Reconsider what? Publishing it? Its already published. If you don't think the passages quoted earlier about the FR Pantheon mock FR canon, then I don't know what to say. If you are just trying to deride people for complaining, then I'm also not sure what to say. I see what you mean and I can understand you for feeling upset, but try to take it lightly. If you cannot take a little mocking of the Realms from a single core book, then I wonder how you people ever took Planescape to heart.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 03:43 PM	Planescape was my favorite setting, and it never mocked FR. Any reading of the material in such a way would be utterly shallow. Much of the creative writing surrounding Sigil and the occupants of the Cage was self-deprecating. It reeked of delicious irony. And, as I pointed out, there were many references to there being mighty Prime bloods well-versed in the dark of the multiverse (like Elminster). This helped support Toril's canon of having a long history of planar traversal and portals.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 03:46 PM	Planescape was my favorite setting, and it never mocked FR. Any reading of the material in such a way would be utterly shallow. Much of the creative writing surrounding Sigil and the occupants of the Cage was self-deprecating. It reeked of delicious irony. And, as I pointed out, there were many references to there being mighty Prime bloods well-versed in the dark of the multiverse (like Elminster). This helped support Toril's canon of having a long history of planar traversal and portals. True, but it certainly was not the same for some other settings;) Still, Planescape is great. As for the deregation of FR canon, remember, this dosen't change anything, so hold your head up high and consiter THEM clueless:)
GothicDan 05-20-07, 03:50 PM	But the Drow book is most decidedly not written from an IC point of view... That's sort of the point. That's why it seems like WotC (since they wrote the book, and it's not biased from an in-character viewpoint) is largely brushing off years of Faerunian work at making the Drow more than a bunch of psychotic Lolth-worshippers.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 03:55 PM	But the Drow book is most decidedly not written from an IC point of view... That's sort of the point. That's why it seems like WotC (since they wrote the book, and it's not biased from an in-character viewpoint) is largely brushing off years of Faerunian work at making the Drow more than a bunch of psychotic Lolth-worshippers. I agree, and consiter that part of the book to be quite simplistic and demeaning of the drow. I think that wizards just did this to present drow in a more simplistic manner to not-as-well-educated new fans who are just looking for a quick and fundemental outlook on the drow that they can understand. WoTC's whole policy throughout 3rd edtion is not to satisfy old fans, but to attract new ones. The cosmology changes, core D&D, dumbing down on lore in various books, are all part of this. I am not suprised by wizards move on this book, not one bit.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 04:00 PM	I'll agree with that. Not surprised... But just because your kid keeps bringing home bad grades doesn't mean you stop punishing him/her. ;)
XHereticX 05-20-07, 04:02 PM	I'll agree with that. Not surprised... But just because your kid keeps bringing home bad grades doesn't mean you stop punishing him/her. ;) And I don't think wizards really cares about the opinions of a few outspoken realms fans on the forums, which is why I condone complaining as immature and useless. If you really want to kick wizards where it hurts, take a bite off their wallet.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 04:07 PM	And I don't think wizards really cares about the opinions of a few outspoken realms fans on the forums, which is why I condone complaining as immature and useless. If you really want to kick wizards where it hurts, take a bite off their wallet. They do care, because they spend the time and money to keep the forums going. Not buying something just gives them the knowledge that people didn't like it. It doesn't tell them WHY they didn't like it, and what they would prefer. Your method is sure to make D&D as a whole tank. Ours, at least, gives them knowledge that we LIKE D&D, but we want something slightly different out of it.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 04:10 PM	They do care, because they spend the time and money to keep the forums going. Not buying something just gives them the knowledge that people didn't like it. It doesn't tell them WHY they didn't like it, and what they would prefer. Your method is sure to make D&D as a whole tank. Ours, at least, gives them knowledge that we LIKE D&D, but we want something slightly different out of it. Or we can use a combination of the two plus maybe online petitions for change somewhere. Like Rudy said when fighting the Mafia, "Hit em' high, hit em' low, and hit em' in the middle."
GothicDan 05-20-07, 04:13 PM	But what exactly would such a petition consist of?
XHereticX 05-20-07, 04:16 PM	But what exactly would such a petition consist of? I dunno, but if you really want to organize one to change the ways, you have to ask many of the old timers to pitch in their part. I really only got introduced to D&D through 3rd edition, but I have done enough independent online research on 2nd edition stuff that I have fallen in love with the old ways and absolutly despise new changes like core and eberron. I would really like to see some changes(though I don't mind the Great Tree too much)
GothicDan 05-20-07, 04:20 PM	It's always heartening to meet more people that got into D&D during 3E but prefer 2E and 1E lore. It really makes me want to smash it in the face of those who claim us to be grognards just because we prefer something older. They don't seem to consider the possibility that we may just LIKE the older material for what it is.
XHereticX 05-20-07, 04:21 PM	It's always heartening to meet more people that got into D&D during 3E but prefer 2E and 1E lore. It really makes me want to smash it in the face of those who claim us to be grognards just because we prefer something older. They don't seem to consider the possibility that we may just LIKE the older material for what it is. Now, the rest of my gaming group thinks totally differently from me, I guess I will have to educate them about the old ways.
Faraer 05-20-07, 05:09 PM	I don't read the passage quoted as mocking or derisive. On the other hand, nothing I've read about this book much interests me to buy it. See this EN World thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=196908) for some information from Ari Marmell about his approach.It was mandated from on high that we focus on Lolth as the primary drow religion, treating the other gods more as demigods or the equivalents of "saints."
Lord Karsus 05-20-07, 06:11 PM	This is essentially saying that we should ignore Ed's words, and all the prior lore - because we "scholars of the Forgotten Realms" are WROOOOOOOONGO. THIS is why Realms Drow fans are ticked off. -This, I don't agree. In the Realms, the rest of the Anti-Seldarine are secondary to Lolth, in the minds of their followers included. As I mentioned earlier, if a Vhaeraunite truly felt that Vhaeraun was totally superior to Lolth, why do they hide above ground. If a Kiaransaleean truly felt that Kiaransalee was superior to Lolth, why do they hide, and practice their sacraments in secret? Do you follow my reasoning? Look at the Mafia (someone mentioned it, in some context)...The run-of-the-mill foot soldier works for the Capo, reports to the Capo, and thinks that the Capo is generally the best person in the world. But, even though they do all of this, they still respect the Boss moreso. *Gasps* *Whacks with the Khae-stick* KARSUS! PUNISH HIM! -I don't punish people who disagree with Ed. There's plenty of things that Ed has said, or published, that I thought, or continue to think are quite stupid. -I'm sure that Ed wouldn't want people to be punished for disagreeing with him, either.
Zanan 05-20-07, 07:11 PM	I don't read the passage quoted as mocking or derisive. On the other hand, nothing I've read about this book much interests me to buy it. See this EN World thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=196908) for some information from Ari Marmell about his approach It was mandated from on high that we focus on Lolth as the primary drow religion, treating the other gods more as demigods or the equivalents of "saints." . Shocking. Wonder why that was done. BTW, GothicDan, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits has quite a bit of Planescape material. Not that extensive, but e.g. a short write-up of Sigil may wet your appetite.
Straploknight 05-20-07, 07:57 PM	Even Planescape said that the sods from Abeir-Toril were the least Clueless of the Clueless. ;) High praise coming from folk who dwell on the planes.
Zandilar 05-20-07, 08:58 PM	Heya, -This, I don't agree. In the Realms, the rest of the Anti-Seldarine are secondary to Lolth, in the minds of their followers included. As I mentioned earlier, if a Vhaeraunite truly felt that Vhaeraun was totally superior to Lolth, why do they hide above ground. If a Kiaransaleean truly felt that Kiaransalee was superior to Lolth, why do they hide, and practice their sacraments in secret? Do you follow my reasoning? Look at the Mafia (someone mentioned it, in some context)...The run-of-the-mill foot soldier works for the Capo, reports to the Capo, and thinks that the Capo is generally the best person in the world. But, even though they do all of this, they still respect the Boss moreso. Vhaeraun - god of Evil Activity on the Surface? He's not hiding, he's fulfilling his portfolio. Kiaransalee is probably hated by everyone, and probably deservedly so. No wonder she hides. There are drow cities in the Realms where deities other than Lolth hold significant power (Eryndlyn, Llurth Dreir), and cities where the religious do not hold power (Sshamath). Your explanation also doesn't explain Eilistraee, who doesn't hide at all. She even sends dream visions to all drow, no matter which deity they worship!
msatran 05-20-07, 09:09 PM	Actually, I would place Ghaunadaur worshippers at a much lower percentage. Their god is a slimy tentacle and eyeball that lives in creepy altars! All he really does is displace Jubilex. Not that one slime deity is any better than another, really, but I don't think that portion of the discussion matters very much. There's always some weirdo who wants to worship slime, and there's always another adventurer there to kill him.
GothicDan 05-20-07, 10:35 PM	Really, Zanan? Muy muy interesante...
Zanan 05-21-07, 04:01 AM	Kiaransalee is probably hated by everyone, and probably deservedly so. No wonder she hides. Hated by everyone? She's almost unknown to anyone but her worshippers and only recently have they come forward and gave the rest of the drow faiths a lesson or two. Dabbling in necromancy is not their only activity ... nor one that is strange to the drow. She hides? That is only because of some "I have a subscription to Resurrection" - Abyssal Lord who enjoys the Freedom of the Wizards. :rolleyes: Your explanation also doesn't explain Eilistraee, who doesn't hide at all. She even sends dream visions to all drow, no matter which deity they worship! I never received one and matter of factly haven't read anything about her sending vision to all drow.
Fingoldfin 05-21-07, 04:45 AM	I fell in love with D&D and FR in 2e. Since Wotc took over TSR many things have changed. Sometimes for the better. I like 3e and 3.5, but I think that Wotc needs to pay more attention to their fan base and less attention to the bottom line. If they put out good products that fans love they may make less money in the short term, but they will make more in the future. TSR built a loyal fan base and now Wotc is making us sour. I'm not just mad about Drow of the Underdark. I'm mad about Dragon magazine getting killed. I am mad that a lot of info is cut from every FR book put out because they have to be 160pgs. I'm mad that they stopped doing regional books so they could put out more core books filled with bad PrCs and feats. I am mad that they act like they don't care what we think. I wish they would bring back the box set with a players book, a DM book, a small adventure book, and more than one map. Now that I'm done crying about it. How can we make things change? Can we start a suggestion thread that someone from Wotc has to read? A thread for griping and asking for changes. What does everyone think? Does anyone know how to set something like this up with Wotc?
Zandilar 05-21-07, 06:52 AM	Heya, I never received one and matter of factly haven't read anything about her sending vision to all drow. Wish there was a sigh emoticon... It depends on whether or not you take Ed's words to be canon or not. I'm pretty sure I quoted him earlier... But I'll do it again. I asked him how regular Drow learned about Eilistraee since obviously knowledge of her would be forbidden by Lolth and probably the other Drow deities, and this was what he said (November 5 2006)... (The word "all" by the way was an exaggeration on my behalf, so I apologise, but there is an implication there that it might very well be a vast majority - some of whom won't interpret what they see or feel correctly)... Zandilar, Eilistraee has always gained converts and made herself known to drow through dream-visions and personal appearances (usually dancing in moonlit woods). Many, many drow long to return to the surface and live among trees (it’s a race instinct, that some recognize for what it is - - whereas other drow just feel always unsettled and edgy, and usually turn this into fighting amongst themselves, and family and/or trading rivalries), and Eilistraee has far more worshippers than the drow who dwell under the firm influence of Vhaeraun or Lolth (who is by far the most powerful of drow deities) would have one believe.
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 09:46 AM	Their god is a slimy tentacle and eyeball that lives in creepy altars! All he really does is displace Jubilex. Not that one slime deity is any better than another, really, but I don't think that portion of the discussion matters very much. There's always some weirdo who wants to worship slime, and there's always another adventurer there to kill him. -Hey, don't diss Ghaunadaur. Vhaeraun - god of Evil Activity on the Surface? He's not hiding, he's fulfilling his portfolio. -Why do you think most of his activity has shifted to the Underdark? Because Lolthites, in their righteousness, chased Vhaeraun and his worshippers away. Superiority to Lolth here. Kiaransalee is probably hated by everyone, and probably deservedly so. No wonder she hides. -The reason why her followers hide, though, is because their use of necromancy is deemed incorrect by the Lolthites. Thus, the Lolthites occupy the higher ring on the totem pole, as opposed to Kiaransalee and her followers. Superiority to Lolth here, again. There are drow cities in the Realms where deities other than Lolth hold significant power (Eryndlyn, Llurth Dreir), and cities where the religious do not hold power (Sshamath). -I forget the figure, though I just read it a couple of days ago. I believe that 80% of all Drow cities are controlled by Lolth and her Clerics. Might have been Demihuman Deities, since I've been editing Lolth's entry in Elves of Faerűn. Your explanation also doesn't explain Eilistraee, who doesn't hide at all. She even sends dream visions to all drow, no matter which deity they worship! -The very fact that she sends dream visions to Drow, and works in secret demonstrates that she and her followers are afraid of retribution by Lolth and her followers. -I'll use another anology here. No matter how powerful a Crime Lord is, he/she still fears the law. Look at the Sopranos, for instance. Tony Soprano is quite powerful, being the Boss of his particular Mafia family. Yet, he fears the law, and what the law can do to him.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 02:15 PM	I'm wondering what LK's point here is... *Eyes him like he's got turkeys in his ears.*
Zanan 05-21-07, 02:29 PM	-Hey, don't diss Ghaunadaur. Why? It isn't even a drow god. -The reason why her followers hide, though, is because their use of necromancy is deemed incorrect by the Lolthites. Thus, the Lolthites occupy the higher ring on the totem pole, as opposed to Kiaransalee and her followers. Superiority to Lolth here, again. Necromancy is not that uncommon amongst the drow, polytheism is. Lolthites are extremists and accept nigh to no other deity in their cities. As Kiaransaleens are no allies of the Lolthites, they are surely regarded as heretics and will receive the appropriate attention. -I forget the figure, though I just read it a couple of days ago. I believe that 80% of all Drow cities are controlled by Lolth and her Clerics. Might have been Demihuman Deities, since I've been editing Lolth's entry in Elves of Faerűn. Just accept it as fact ;)
Tiamat2 05-21-07, 02:30 PM	I'm wondering what LK's point here is... *Eyes him like he's got turkeys in his ears.* I couldn't figure it out either. In fact, the whole thread is muddled in some ways. Some people seem to think people are complaining that Lolth is the head of the Drow pantheon and others seem to be simply reacting to the cavalier and mocking attitude DotU takes towards the other members of the pantheon. Faraer's enworld quote settled the matter for me. WotC mandated to the authors to minimize other Drow gods in the book for whatever reason and that's what they did. I don't know why they felt the need to mention how misguided FR scholars are while they did it, but such is what it is. I'm fully expecting most, if not all, of the FR Drow pantheon to be eliminated in short order (by an author who doesn't even understand FR's cosmology at that; the Demonweb pits have been their own plane in the FR for a long time). That is the only explanation I can find for WotC's directives to the authors of DotU.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 02:53 PM	I pretty much agree with you, Tiamat, though I can't really comment on the novels, as I haven't read them. The only Drow deity I'd truly not care if he was eliminated, would be Selvetarm. I think Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are just too intrinsic to the FR Drow mythology, and I just really like Kiaransalee. And Ghaunadaur has been involved with the Drow on Faerun even before Lolth.
Mikayla 05-21-07, 05:23 PM	On DotU: I liked the "little things" like the PrCs and the illustrations and the spells and invocations . . . but . . . . . . the big picture is flawed and I think everyone's comments about its treatment of the FR highlights what I found wrong with it. The book is supposed to be "Core" to reach the widest audience possible, but, if you are going to make a product to reach the widest audience possible, in general, it is wiser to include more, not less. In otherwords, if this book was really for ALL drow fans, then it should have addressed not only the worship of Lolth, but of Kiaransalee, Eilistraee, Vhaerun, Ghaunadaur, and the "core" world drow-deities like Keptolo, and the Eberron drow deity. THAT book would appeal to the widest possible audience - this book, that focuses only on Lolth, appeals to those who are interested only in Lolth-worshipping drow. True, that includes me, but then I would have much preferred to see a book that included ALL the drow deities, regardless of "world" rather than a book that takes a much narrower view like this one. Now, with the EN world information we can see that this is not the author's fault, but the fault of WotC, and presumably this is because they (through Lisa Smedmen's novels) are narrowing the field of drow deities. Who knows what will really happen, but it seems like many of the drow deities are going to go away - but still, a book meant to appeal to a wide audience should take a wide scope. After all, the Core world is not the only world - and Greyhawk, Abeir-Toril and Eberron do not comprise the sum total of D&D worlds either - for most of my 30+ year D&D "career" I have played in home-brewed worlds. These home brewed worlds drew much information and inspiration from Greyhawk and Toril to be sure (Erelhei-Cinlu made it into one of my homebrewed worlds, as did Eilistraee). So, for the folks not playing in Greyhawk, or Toril, or Eberron, a book which covers more, not less, would also be appropriate. A better book would have presented ALL the drow deities, and then had a sidebar/section that explained which ones were worshipped where. That book would truly have widespread application, and hopefully, a correspondingly widespread appeal. As for Tiamat's point about the book disrespecting FR canon, I agree completely - and now see that this is a command from WotC. C'est la vie.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:25 PM	Mikayla, you better not let Lolth hear you saying such things! ;)
Mikayla 05-21-07, 05:27 PM	I am Lolth*, waela iblith jaluk. *Or at least I play her in my spare time . . . ;)
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:28 PM	But I'm Corellon! Does that mean we were consorts, once? Oh shi-!
Mikayla 05-21-07, 05:34 PM	Was it as good for you as it was for me? :cool: Oh . . . and where is my support check? Little V misses you terribly - talk about a dead-beat dad...
GothicDan 05-21-07, 05:37 PM	I don't support children that try to shoot me in the head! PS: It was hawt. You so freaky, girl! PPS: There is not a single picture of anything resembling a Sun Elf male in the D&D, Eberron, or FR Avatars. I officially hate these boards, now.
Alediran 05-21-07, 06:15 PM	PPS: There is not a single picture of anything resembling a Sun Elf male in the D&D, Eberron, or FR Avatars. I officially hate these boards, now. We are two then, there was a picture of an elven wizard in one of the new books that somehow resembled what Alediran would look like, let me se if I can find it. Here it is, but I claim it as mine: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97163.jpg
GothicDan 05-21-07, 06:21 PM	That's actually not bad. I actually like the pictures of Araevin, even if I'm not a fan of the character.
msatran 05-21-07, 07:03 PM	That is absolutely terrible. When 22% of Drow are non-Evil in FR... Wow. Dan, where is chapter and verse on that again? I'm not sure that figure is correct.
thundergod99 05-21-07, 07:04 PM	I actually enjoyed DotU. Maybe the lack of FR info was softened by the fact that I didn't have to pay for it (I was at the mall with my girlfriend on the 6th, and I saw it on the shelf at the bookstore - she took it out of my hands and bought it for me before I could protest), but I found much of the analysis on Drow Psychology to be quite intriguing. That's not to say it was a great book. Far from it. I agree with others that much of it slapped the FR pantheon in the face, and there could have been some more sidebars on the Realms. Most of the material presented was potentially useless, with entries often leading with "because of lolth's silence...", completely nerfing it's application to the realms. But all that is at the discretion of the DM. I'm just finishing running City of the Spider Queen, and having the book before the final battle I was hoping to find some useful things to borrow that the PCs hadn't seen before. I used 2 feats. That's it. The rest, being Lolth driven was pretty much useless to me. Was it a waste of money? No. Had I still been playing in a previous campaign, we were nearly ready to enter the Underdark in an OGL adventure withing the DM's own setting. I think there were many things that could have been used there. The core books aren't just "Greyhawk", but are meant for broader application to any setting. If you want to use it do, and if you don't then by all means don't. I'm not applying the eratta to the 1/2 Drow, but I did apply the update from the MIC on the Mage Bane ability. DM's choice. Don't be afraid to apply that rule.
Mikayla 05-21-07, 07:24 PM	An addendum to my previous critique about the book - while I have issues with the approach WotC took (creating a product aimed at a wide audience while narrowing the subject matter rather than making it more inclusive rather than less) I did like the book itself - I suppose that is a tribute to the authors, who, while operating under a WotC directive I find a bit stifling, did a good job with the book. I like the bits on drow culture and psychology, clothing, everything. Granted, much of it does not comport with FR canon and lore, such as where in DotU they indicate there is no formal schooling for drow priestesses and clerics, while in the FR we know that drow priestesses/cleric in Menzoberranzan go to Arach Tinilith to study for 50 years (courtesy of "Homeland"). I especially like the part on drow psychology where the authors note something I've been saying for years - drow society (Lolthian drow society anyway) as portrayed would not work, but for the deus ex machina of Lolth. Ok, so, overall, I think I give the book an 8 out of 10, or, using the Ebert & Roper method, it gets a thumbs-up, despite its overall misdirection. Kudos to the authors!
msatran 05-21-07, 07:25 PM	The problem is that everything is either really bad (Destruction of all FR lore) or too good Staggering Critical: Without Heavy Fortification, you die. There's very little in between.
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 08:31 PM	Why? It isn't even a drow god. -As Drow are it's most numerous faithful, it is, by default. That's Ghaunadaur's fault, though. It shouldn't have stripped the intelligence of all of it's slimy followers. Just accept it as fact ;) -I do, I do. I'm wondering what LK's point here is... *Eyes him like he's got turkeys in his ears.* I couldn't figure it out either. -My point is that in Faerűn, concerning Drow society, no matter what city you are in, and no matter what particular deity you worship, Lolth is queen. Period. :shifty: -And between you, me, and the wall, I do have turkeys in my ears...
BrennonGoldeye 05-21-07, 09:25 PM	.....hmmm, is there any turkey bacon?.....:drool:
Zandilar 05-21-07, 09:28 PM	Heya, Dan, where is chapter and verse on that again? I'm not sure that figure is correct. *sigh* I'd say check my sig, but it won't show up on this post... Instead here's the quote again. [Edit: dang, looks like the sig did show but isn't changed...] I’d say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerűn worship Eilistraee - - although I must again remind scribes to set aside any modern monotheistic thinking: in the Realms, the vast majority of intelligent beings worship many or at least several gods, NOT just one. It’s not easy to truly believe in and worship Lolth and any other drow deity, but a particular drow individual COULD venerate both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (though they’d serve neither well, in trying to follow or honour both). Drow who ONLY worship Eilistraee are almost entirely her clergy, and are probably between 10 and 12 percent of all drow.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 09:43 PM	Dan, where is chapter and verse on that again? I'm not sure that figure is correct. Zandilar has provided the quote, nicely, twice. But as Faraer has clarified, it's important to note that most Drow are, to a point, polytheistic. So those who worship Eilistraee still might worship Vhaeraun, for instance.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 09:45 PM	-My point is that in Faerűn, concerning Drow society, no matter what city you are in, and no matter what particular deity you worship, Lolth is queen. Period. LK, you're speakin' Drow crap! Quit that, and read Ed's notes.
Straploknight 05-21-07, 11:12 PM	Hey, isn't Ghuanadaur an aspect of Lolth, or was that Moander?
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 11:13 PM	LK, you're speakin' Drow crap! Quit that, and read Ed's notes. -It seems that I'm the only one seeing the "broader picture", here. -The faiths of Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, and to a lesser degree, Ghaunadaur, are, effectivley, the way they are because of Lolth. Were Lolth not in the picture, said faiths would be dramatically different. Thus, Lolth, in the broader sense, is the most important deity of the Drow. Effectivley, Lolth has, intentionally or not, shaped the faiths of her rivals, in a sense. And, whether they know it or not, the other members of the Anti-Seldarine, and their worshippers, play into this idea, by simply acting as they do. -Ed's notes don't debunk anything I am saying, and really don't actually pertain to what I am saying.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 11:18 PM	What you just said there, though, isn't anything like that you said before. Just because Corellon's effectively helped shape the Seldarine doesn't mean that he's the only Elven god.
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 11:25 PM	-That is what I have been saying. I never said that the other members of the Anti-Seldarine did not exist. I said that Lolth is simply the most important member of the Anti-Seldarine, and to all Drow, in general.
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 11:29 PM	Hey, isn't Ghuanadaur an aspect of Lolth, or was that Moander? -That is Moander. She has assumed his name, as to be worshipped by deranged Humans, Half-Elves and Elves.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 11:29 PM	LK, the words you said it with were dumb. *Pushes.* *Watches Queer as Folk.*
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 11:38 PM	-Whatever...:rolleyes:
Zanan 05-22-07, 04:17 AM	LK, you're speakin' Drow crap! Quit that, and read Ed's notes. Sssshhhh, GD. Always remember that there are people who stick to what the Hooded Ones relates, and those who only agree to what they see black on white (with the usual shades) in print. No need to promote one or the other side, that is for Lolth to decide. ;) BTW, I checked the history of Erelhei-Cinlu in the Dragon 298 (was there any more given beforehand?) and found that the one in TDotUD was not exactly matching it - regarding the Priestess Wars coming and march-out of House Kilsek. The book paints a different picture. Strange one. As for the future of the drow pantheon within the Realms and probable hints to the authors of this book (hence the omission of all but Lolth): I would reckon that the novel serie's end will be sometime next year and if the drow deities had been slain by then, it would most likely still take years until as sourcebook would have cleared all things up for us.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 08:16 AM	Sssshhhh, GD. Always remember that there are people who stick to what the Hooded Ones relates, and those who only agree to what they see black on white (with the usual shades) in print. No need to promote one or the other side, that is for Lolth to decide. ;) -Like I said before, that quote from THO has nothing to do with the argument I am making. It's apples and oranges.
Tiamat2 05-22-07, 08:27 AM	-Like I said before, that quote from THO has nothing to do with the argument I am making. It's apples and oranges. I don't think your argument is quite correct. To argue that Lolth is more important to surface Drow than Eilistraee or Vhaerun is incorrect. Lolth has shaped the direction of their faiths, but, unlike what DotU and you have said, there is not only Lolth and Lolth does not alone reign supreme in the hearts and minds of Drow. To argue that Lolth is more important to followers of Eil (and to a lesser extent Vhaerun) because they fight against the followers and power of Lolth would be like arguing that Bane is more important to the followers of Torm, since Torm's faith has traditionally been based on countering Bane. Your quote on the previous page about how Lolth is the most important thing in all Drow lives, regardless of who they worship or what CITY they live in encapsules what I think is wrong with your argument. Not all Drow live in Underdark cities and not even all Underdark cities worship Lolth. To hear a fan of the FR espousing the viewpoint of the DotU book is a little disconcerting, just as it was frustrating to read the religion and daily life passages in that sourcebook.
Dielzen 05-22-07, 08:48 AM	Actually, considering Ao can throw her out at any time, Ao is the most important member of every pantheon on the face of Toril, and is the most important deity to every thinking creature.
Zanan 05-22-07, 10:11 AM	Actually, considering Ao can throw her out at any time, Ao is the most important member of every pantheon on the face of Toril, and is the most important deity to every thinking creature. You know, I would not be surprised if anyone bar his priests and a few scholars actually know of him/her/it or the role him/her/it plays.
Stigger 05-22-07, 10:17 AM	Ao doesn't have any priests... at least not actual clerics. As to the rest of it, having read it over briefly, I'd pretty much agree with Lord Karsus' take on things. Lolth and her influence is pretty much felt universally by the Drow, regardless of whether they actually worship her or not. By extension, she shapes and pushes the society into certain ways, either to please her, or to counter her, and is for the most part an omnipresent thing in their lives. I didn't see anything that LK said that wasn't putting that idea forward, at least from what I read of it.
Dielzen 05-22-07, 10:21 AM	My comment was a sarcastic continuation of LK's "cause Lolth is so powerful all drow worship her" theme. I'm well aware most people don't know Ao exists and that there's no priests/etc of Ao.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:57 AM	My comment was a sarcastic continuation of LK's "cause Lolth is so powerful all drow worship her" theme. -I didn't say that. Whether they know it or not, directly or indirectly, all Drow know Lolth as the most powerful being in the Anti-Seldarine. As to the rest of it, having read it over briefly, I'd pretty much agree with Lord Karsus' take on things. Lolth and her influence is pretty much felt universally by the Drow, regardless of whether they actually worship her or not. By extension, she shapes and pushes the society into certain ways, either to please her, or to counter her, and is for the most part an omnipresent thing in their lives. I didn't see anything that LK said that wasn't putting that idea forward, at least from what I read of it. -Yes, this represents what I've been saying quite nicely. To argue that Lolth is more important to surface Drow than Eilistraee or Vhaerun is incorrect. Lolth has shaped the direction of their faiths, but, unlike what DotU and you have said, there is not only Lolth and Lolth does not alone reign supreme in the hearts and minds of Drow. To argue that Lolth is more important to followers of Eil (and to a lesser extent Vhaerun) because they fight against the followers and power of Lolth would be like arguing that Bane is more important to the followers of Torm, since Torm's faith has traditionally been based on countering Bane. Your quote on the previous page about how Lolth is the most important thing in all Drow lives, regardless of who they worship or what CITY they live in encapsules what I think is wrong with your argument. Not all Drow live in Underdark cities and not even all Underdark cities worship Lolth. To hear a fan of the FR espousing the viewpoint of the DotU book is a little disconcerting, just as it was frustrating to read the religion and daily life passages in that sourcebook. -Think about everything I am saying, as if you were a sociologist, and you'll discover that a great deal of what I am saying is true. But, remember, in sociology, there are no definite answers. Everything that is discussed, for the most part, is theory. Apply the theories that sociologists use in our actual world to what we are talking about.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 11:59 AM	Actually, considering Ao can throw her out at any time, Ao is the most important member of every pantheon on the face of Toril, and is the most important deity to every thinking creature. -And, by extension, Ao's Master is more powerful than Ao. Thus, he should be the most important being. And, so on and so forth. That argument can go on forever.
Tiamat2 05-22-07, 12:24 PM	This: -I didn't say that. Whether they know it or not, directly or indirectly, all Drow know Lolth as the most powerful being in the Anti-Seldarine. Does not mean the same as when you said this: - -My point is that in Faerűn, concerning Drow society, no matter what city you are in, and no matter what particular deity you worship, Lolth is queen. Period. Which one is an accurate representation of your viewpoint? The second, to me, is completely wrong. The first quote is simply a restatement of canon: that Lolth as an intermediate/greater goddess is the most powerful goddess in the Dark Seldarine. The whole debate is odd, as I've said a few times now. DotU says that there is no true Drow pantheon, not even in the FR, and that Drow don't consider the other members of the pantheon "true gods." It uses that as a justification for painting the Drow in broad, bland strokes. Faraer quotes the author of the book as saying they were told to treat other Drow gods as "saints" and leave them out. Why would anyone who likes FR defend the book's position?
msatran 05-22-07, 01:11 PM	Ao's Master is Harry Belafonte! Aaaa-o! Ay-ay-ay-o... Here I come and me wanna go hoo...ome!
Mikayla 05-22-07, 01:27 PM	Zanan: BTW, I checked the history of Erelhei-Cinlu in the Dragon 298 (was there any more given beforehand?) There is some information in the module D3, Vault of the Drow, of course, but its mostly "crunchy" information (stats of NPCs, key to the map, etc.). There is not a whole lot of background on the city. Of course, the module does continue the whole background plot of the G-D series which is the internecine struggle between the drow houses (some for Lolth, some not) and the Fane of Lolth, which boils down on one level to the struggle between Eclavdra Eilservs, Matron of House Eiliservs and Charinida, high priestess of the Fane - a struggle which Eclavdra appears to lose in the G-D-Q series. Of course, Eclavdra returns to Lolth and returns to Erelhei-Cinlu as of Dragon 298 which finds her in a tense stand-off with Charinida (who is still listed as High Priestess of the Fane). With the release of DotU, Eclavdra has apparently triumphed - Charinida is not mentioned at all in DotU and Eclavdra is mentioned as high priestess of the Fane.
Faraer 05-22-07, 01:35 PM	You know, I would not be surprised if anyone bar his priests and a few scholars actually know of him/her/it or the role him/her/it plays.No doubt. To return this thread to topic (the World of Greyhawk), neither recent write-up of Erelhei-Cinlu is intended to be canonical (there is no current detailed Greyhawk canon). I go with Gary Gygax's own continuity in his novels, in which Eclavdra moves on to serve Graz'zt.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 01:44 PM	This: Does not mean the same as when you said this: Which one is an accurate representation of your viewpoint? The second, to me, is completely wrong. The first quote is simply a restatement of canon: that Lolth as an intermediate/greater goddess is the most powerful goddess in the Dark Seldarine. -Both quotes are saying the same exact thing, and play into each other. Lolth is the most powerful member of the Anti-Seldarine. Thus, the other deities in the Anti-Seldarine, as well as their worshippers, begrudgingly give her respect, and fear her, as she is at the "top of the totem pole". Because of her secure position at the "top of the totem pole", Lolth has directly and directly influenced all of Drow society. This includes the Ghaunadaurans (Indirectly), the Kiaransaleeans (Indirectly), the Vhaeraunites (Indirectly), the Eilistraeeans (Indirectly), as well as the Lolthites (Directly). -As Stigger said, "Lolth and her influence is pretty much felt universally by the Drow, regardless of whether they actually worship her or not. By extension, she shapes and pushes the society into certain ways, either to please her, or to counter her, and is for the most part an omnipresent thing in their lives." -If you cannot see that, after examining the evidence (Lolthite Drow society, as well as communities formed by non-Lolthites), then I do not know what else I can say to you. You are going to continue believing what you believe, and I am going to continue believing what I believe.
Tiamat2 05-22-07, 02:02 PM	I'm too dense to understand your point. Saying that Lolth is the most powerful member of the Dark Seldarine and that she has an indirect influence over all Drow is not saying much of anything. It is like saying Tiamat likes dragons. Saying that Lolth is queen of all Drow is saying something completely different that isn't true. Being Queen implies sovereignty and, in the case of a religion, an acknowledgment of sovereignty. I honestly doubt any followers of the Dark Maiden see Lolth as their queen, whether they consider her more powerful than Eilistraee or not. The same goes for those who follow the other anti-Lolth drow gods (which is all Drow gods except for Lolth and Selvetarm). Rulership and influence are separate points. Lolth might influence all Drow, but to say that she rules them all or all acknowledge her sovereignty over them is not true. I don't see how they are the same point and I don't agree that both are correct.
msatran 05-22-07, 03:17 PM	The issue here is the confusion over the "Dark Seldarine", I think. Which is why Wizards did this. Confidentially, I'm kind of surprised they didn't do it sooner, though since you guys have reached a point of no return, even though I don't like the idea in the first place, here we go. Here's how Wizards thinks: 1) The issue of separate Drow gods confuses people. 2) Evil human gods are considered part of the same pantheon of gods as the good human gods. 3) So evil elven gods have a separate pantheon WHY? 4) The goal...and correct me if I'm wrong here, with this latest series of novels that Lisa seems to be writing (I'm not reading them because I'm pretty sure that this is the goal, and I won't have to read them at all), is to not have two Elven pantheons, but one. Yeah, all those drow gods like Vhaeraun, Seveltarm, and Lolth will join the elven pantheon, and there will be one pantheon. They still won't LIKE each other, and they'll still be evil, but this is the problem with mass market targeting. The larger your audience, the dumber the audience becomes. A lot of people can't see why these deities didn't remain part of the elven pantheon despite the fact that they were bad. A pantheon of gods doesn't cease to be a pantheon of gods just because some of them are rotten. Take Norse Mythology. Odin kicked out Loki and Hel, but they were still part of the pantheon. Take Greek Mythology. Zeus kicked out Hades, and Persephone only gets to live on Mt. Olympus every six months. It's still the same pantheon. So that's what I think they're doing.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 05:55 PM	I'm too dense to understand your point. -That's neither here, nor there. Saying that Lolth is the most powerful member of the Dark Seldarine and that she has an indirect influence over all Drow is not saying much of anything. It is like saying Tiamat likes dragons. Saying that Lolth is queen of all Drow is saying something completely different that isn't true. Being Queen implies sovereignty and, in the case of a religion, an acknowledgment of sovereignty. I honestly doubt any followers of the Dark Maiden see Lolth as their queen, whether they consider her more powerful than Eilistraee or not. The same goes for those who follow the other anti-Lolth drow gods (which is all Drow gods except for Lolth and Selvetarm). Rulership and influence are separate points. Lolth might influence all Drow, but to say that she rules them all or all acknowledge her sovereignty over them is not true. -Alright, you've got the first part down. Lolth is indeed the most powerful member of the Anti-Seldarine. That much is obvious, though. When I said, "Lolth is queen", I meant it in a way that denoted that Lolth was, and still is, "in charge"- meaning that she has influence over all things Drow, no matter what deity they worship, no matter where they hail from, no matter what their particular outlook on life is. By having this influence over all Drow, she directly and indirectly rules over them. For example, the Darksong Knight who has spent decades training to fight demons. Lolth indirectly rules this character's life. Had Lolth not existed, this character's life would be completely and utterly different. The Vhaeraunian who has dedicated his life to alloting males more power in traditional Drow society, Lolth indirectly rules this character's life. Had Lolth not existed, this character's life would be completely and utterly different. -All Drow understand the power that Lolth wields, and respect and fear it. The clergies of other Drow faiths understand the power that Lolth wields, and fears it. Begrudgingly, they all accept the fact that Lolth is indeed mightier than their own deities. Vhaeraunites do, which is why they operate, in general, far from where Lolthites do. Kiaransaleeans do, which is why they practice their rituals in secret, rather than out in the open, where they can incur the wrath of Lolth, and her priestess'. The same goes with Ghaunadaurans and Eilistraeeans. Selvetarm's worship was sanctioned by the Church of Lolth, so his case is a little different. But, in that situation, there is blatent disproportion of power, and Selvetarmites blatently show their subservience to Lolth. -As a side note, being the actual queen of a particular group or place does not neccessarily entail acceptance and acknowledgement. For example, look at Mary, Queen of Scots. As I know it, she was the true Queen of Greater England (biologically, politically, and what not, due to the laws of succession). Yet, this was not accepted by many, for various reasons. I don't see how they are the same point and I don't agree that both are correct. -And, you're entitled to your own opinons.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 06:04 PM	Msatran... I think what you're asserting above might make sense to some Wizards of the Coast people. I certainly don't agree with it (since the Dark Seldarine are worshipped nearly exclusively by the Drow, whereas humans worshipped both Loki AND Odin, for instance), but I think it would make some twisted sense to people who don't know exactly how pantheons roughly operate (at least in the Realms). Pantheons in the Realms (in books such as F&A at least) are more defined by the worshippers, not the interactions between the pantheons.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 06:10 PM	-Drow are (effectivley) a different race, anyway. Asides for some anatomical and physiological similarities, and a shared history up until a point, Drow and the other Elven subraces have little in common. Having a panthon in common, especially after Corellon Larethian and the rest of the Seldarine exiled Araushnee, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun seems a bit silly to be.
Tiamat2 05-22-07, 06:18 PM	If someone wishes to believe that Lolth is the most important Goddess in a follower of Eilistraee's life, so be it. It strikes me as odd to think that, but it also strikes me as odd that Lord Karsus would belabor the smaller point that Lolth is the most powerful Drow goddess, something no one has disputed.
GothicDan 05-22-07, 06:20 PM	Edit: Tiamat stole my wind like woah. Also, LK's only a relatively good speller. I <3 him anyway. *Runs off. Extra ADHD today.*
MarkusTay63 05-22-07, 06:34 PM	-Drow are (effectivley) a different race, anyway. Asides for some anatomical and physiological similarities, and a shared history up until a point, Drow and the other Elven subraces have little in common. Having a panthon in common, especially after Corellon Larethian and the rest of the Seldarine exiled Araushnee, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun seems a bit silly to be.I would agree whole-heartedly about the first part. Dark Elves were ELVES, first and foremost. The Day they became Drow they stopped truly being Elves, IMHO. The differences were made clear with the Descent, and have only grown more pronounced over the millenia. As for the second part, I agree to a point. To say Lolth is the single most important God in a Drows life may be true, but I think something is getting lost here 'in translation'. When she feels it is worth it, she can overcome any other Drow God(dess)s protections and 'get to' ANY Drow. That is why so many are afraid to turn from her... because you are never truly free of Lolth. When ever she wants, she can start yanking on the strings again. Worshipping another goddess or god may make it more difficult for Lolth, but not impossible. Lolth rules through fear, and thats why she will always be on top where the Drow are concerned. However, to the individual worshippers or Vhaeruan or Eilistraee THEIR god is numero uno as far as they are concerned, despite what the real deal may be. They may have lulled themselves into a false sense of security, but they have FAITH in their Deity nonetheless. So yes, Lolth is the most important, but it doesn't mean individual Drow perceive it so.
Lord Karsus 05-22-07, 06:47 PM	Also, LK's only a relatively good speller. I <3 him anyway. *Runs off. Extra ADHD today.* -R yoo moking mie speeling? They may have lulled themselves into a false sense of security, but they have FAITH in their Deity nonetheless. -It's a paradox that exists in pantheons. Your deity is the most powerful, says you, yet your deity there has superiors.
XHereticX 05-22-07, 08:39 PM	I think the point Lord Karsus is trying to make that although the drow faith is a polyenestic one, with different drow worshipping different deities, and many worshipping none at all. Lolth traditionally has been the symbol and embodiment of the drow, in other words, she IS the ideals and ambitions of the drow put in embodiment. Like many have said, drow are chaotic and ambiguous creatures that are very shifty and varied in their faith, even the good-natured drow reflect this in some way shape or form. Not all drow may worship Lolth or consiter her the most important aspect of their life but all of them are influenced by the aspects that she put into the very blood of their race after The Fall. She effectively made them what they are after the fall, and like LK said, they are bascically a separate race from the elves now. Then again, DoTU takes a very simplistic view of the drow to make it appeal to newer fans, and you must keep in mind that it focuses on core/Greyhawk drow, who didn't go through The Fall and the Crown Wars and really had no other deities in the influence of their society other than Lolth. Here is the kind of view that DoTU takes on drow, note the absolute irrelevence of Drizzt and Elistraee and the futility of redemption in the eyes of these drow http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=818
GothicDan 05-22-07, 09:10 PM	and you must keep in mind that it focuses on core/Greyhawk drow, who didn't go through The Fall and the Crown Wars and really had no other deities in the influence of their society other than Lolth. We have had two fans of Greyhawk here who have thus far said that the Drow as presented in this book is NOT how they were in Greyhawk. Concede that point - that the book presents Drow as simplified in general, and not very suitable to ANY of the established campaign settings - and we can be friends. If not.. *Pulls up robe sleeves and prepares wands.*
BrennonGoldeye 05-22-07, 09:21 PM	.:m:..Now now boys..:m:.
Deathhammer 05-22-07, 09:22 PM	I didn't take it that way, then again I like the crunch a bit more than fluff and I didn't see them as psychotic killers in the new DotU, The drow as presented in the new DotU seem just as most drow are, inordinately possessed with the urge to pull down thier betters and keep their lessers well under foot. It did far more justice to the drow than a certain dragon article some time ago which most certainly portrayed them as homicidal psychopaths hell bent on killing everything they came across from the time of conception till after they had rotted to dust. I actually agree with you, the book didn't quite meet my expectation but it was ok though.
Mikayla 05-23-07, 02:44 AM	I disagree, mildly, with GD's assessment. As a long time fan of Greyhawk (all the way back to the original, small, taupe covered "Greyhawk" book before all the hardbound stuff) I think the drow as portrayed in DotU are based largely on Greyhawk drow - note the difference between Drow Clerics of Lolth and Drow Priestesses of Lolth - this was never explicit in the Greyhawk lore of old, but it makes sense when one looks at the Erelhei-Cinlu of Module D3, with its noble houses led by clerics, but some of which were hostile or neutral towards the main temple, which was a seperate entity entirely from the noble houses (unlike the drow of the FR's menzo, where there is no seperate city-wide temple). So, some of the DotU lore is quite "Greyhawk" like, some seems like a logical extension, and I see little that is flatly contradictory, though the total domination of Lolth to the exclusion of all others seems a bit extreme even for Greyhawk (which as of Dragon 298 had several other drow gods like Keptolo, Kiaransalee, and Zinzereena (sp?)). Still, after reading the book, I got a very "Greyhawk" feel from it. I definitely did NOT get a very "Forgotten Realms" feel from it - indeed, much of its lore IS flatly contradictory to established FR lore. C'est la WotC.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 04:31 AM	I respect and accept Mikayla's mild disagreement. ;) I'm just saying that the Drow as presented really don't mesh perfectly with ANY of the previously established lore.... MORE so Greyhawk's sure, but not FR's, and I won't even touch Eberron! Way to be useful to all players, core!
Zanan 05-23-07, 09:11 AM	No doubt. To return this thread to topic (the World of Greyhawk), neither recent write-up of Erelhei-Cinlu is intended to be canonical (there is no current detailed Greyhawk canon). I go with Gary Gygax's own continuity in his novels, in which Eclavdra moves on to serve Graz'zt. ... and, according to Fiendish Codex I, returned to Lolth again, who appreciated her actions and re-installed her to a high-ranking position. :cool:
Mikayla 05-23-07, 12:46 PM	GD: I respect and accept Mikayla's mild disagreement. Aww, thats so sweet! GD: I'm just saying that the Drow as presented really don't mesh perfectly with ANY of the previously established lore.... MORE so Greyhawk's sure, but not FR's, and I won't even touch Eberron! Way to be useful to all players, core! I agree with this, completely actually. As I said in an earlier post, I believe the idea should have been to cover all the material - not narrow it - in the hopes making the material more useful to a wider range of folks. Hmmm...we seem to be agreeing a lot - tell me Corello...Dan...why did we break up again? ;) P.S. On Eclavdra - not only did Lolth take her back as of Dragon 298 and the Fiendish Codex (and the Epic book as well, in which she is described as a 23rd level cleric of Lolth acting as Lolth's supreme mortal agent) she has now, as apparently supplanted Charinida as High Priestess of the Fane, and gained a level - she is now 24th according to DotU if I recall correctly.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 01:43 PM	Hmmm...we seem to be agreeing a lot - tell me Corello...Dan...why did we break up again? I think I'm going through one of my "I like nice people" centuries. ;)
MarkusTay63 05-23-07, 06:14 PM	I don't have the book nor have I even seen it, but from what has been quoted from it in this thread it seems VERY much in keeping with GH/Gygax Drow. There 'may' be others, but Lolth is supreme in old GH. That sounds like how it is presented in this work. I still think the only reason TSR/WotC felt a need to 'bump-up' her status, along with several other 'Demon Lords', was because of the PR nightmare that could possibly happen by giving a demonic entity 'devine' powers. There is no reason why Demon Lords who receive worship can't grant spells... except the rules. That may be PC (politically correct), but it really doesn't mesh with established RW lore. Usually, evil beings can grant more powerful abilities to their followers then Heavenly powers can, because they have greater ties to the Prime Material Plane (in mythology/folklore/religion). So in my book (as well as my game), Lolth is STILL the Demon Queen of Spiders. She doesn't need 'godhood'... it's just a crutch. ;)
XHereticX 05-23-07, 08:02 PM	I don't have the book nor have I even seen it, but from what has been quoted from it in this thread it seems VERY much in keeping with GH/Gygax Drow. There 'may' be others, but Lolth is supreme in old GH. That sounds like how it is presented in this work. I still think the only reason TSR/WotC felt a need to 'bump-up' her status, along with several other 'Demon Lords', was because of the PR nightmare that could possibly happen by giving a demonic entity 'devine' powers. There is no reason why Demon Lords who receive worship can't grant spells... except the rules. That may be PC (politically correct), but it really doesn't mesh with established RW lore. Usually, evil beings can grant more powerful abilities to their followers then Heavenly powers can, because they have greater ties to the Prime Material Plane (in mythology/folklore/religion). So in my book (as well as my game), Lolth is STILL the Demon Queen of Spiders. She doesn't need 'godhood'... it's just a crutch. ;) Well, techinically in 3rd edition, fiendish lords can't normally grant spells to clerics unless they take the Thrall to Demon Lord, Disciple of Darkness, or Scion of Sorrow feats. And even then, it is the layer granting the spells, the demon is just a conduit, and the archfiends don't really recieve any power from the worshippers themselves, the layer benefits. The only exception is Asmodeus, who according to DC2, directly grants spells and functions just like a god. Both he and hell benefits because in many ways, Asmodeus IS Hell.
Drizztrocks 05-23-07, 09:31 PM	I don't really want to write a full negative review of a Wizards book on a Wizards board, especially if I'm a minority of one, but was anyone else as disappointed in this book as I am? I just finished the entire thing last night and as I put it down I realized that almost none of the lore is usable in the Realms. Furthermore, it presents the Drow as nothing more than a deranged monotheistic race of lunatics, a perception that years of Realms novels, modules, and core books has been fighting to change. There's even a paragraph in Drow of the Underdark saying that the FR presentation of a Drow pantheon is wrong! The Drow in the Drow of the Underdark book are simplistic and psychotic; they have none of the depth accorded to them in the FR setting. I realize that the book was written from a generic standpoint, but Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness were all written for generic settings and none of them actually "dumbed down" the creatures they were covering. Lords of Mandess, in fact, added tons of new depth and dimensions to the aberrations covered. Drow of the Underdark strips away all of the subtlety of the Dark Elves and leaves us with just a bad stereotype. Thx for telling me! I was getting exited about the book, and that would be a bummer if i bought it and found out it stunk
Lord Karsus 05-23-07, 11:56 PM	Thx for telling me! I was getting exited about the book, and that would be a bummer if i bought it and found out it stunk -You know, that's why most people flip through books before reading them...
GothicDan 05-24-07, 12:05 AM	I never do that. You can't get a very good idea of how a book is without spending time reading it, and I refuse to read something in a store without buying it. Then it feels al most like stealing.
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 12:28 AM	I never do that. You can't get a very good idea of how a book is without spending time reading it, and I refuse to read something in a store without buying it. Then it feels al most like stealing. -I'm talking about D&D sourcebooks here. And I didn't say to sit down and read them. Whenever I buy a D&D sourcebook that I'm not sure about, I flip through it. I'll look at the table of contents, a few of the pictures, a couple of pages here and there. If it's something I was on the fence about to begin with, this helps me decide whether to get it or not. That's the only reason why I bought: Draconomicon, The Psionic Handbook and Player's Guide to Faerűn.
Straploknight 05-24-07, 12:57 AM	Agreed, dont let another person (or media for that matter) form an opinion for you! You should take a look at the book and get a feel for its contents then decide on its merits (or lack there of), of course I give this as general advice and not specifically related to DotU3.5
GothicDan 05-24-07, 01:00 AM	I was talking about sourcebooks, too. And there's certain people on these boards I would trust to form an opinion for me on a sourcebook, simply because I know our tastes run very close (such as theartistformerly known as and Old Sage, just to name two, and most likely LK, here).
Straploknight 05-24-07, 01:13 AM	Call me cynical, but I find it hard to trust any opinion before I've had a chance to digest the information for myself and form my own opinion on a matter, however, afterwhich I like to get/view other opinions and re-evalute my own. Then again, thats probably the reason why my mom called me hard headed and destined to burn in hell for eternity:devil: blind faith is not a phrase in my vocabulary.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 01:24 AM	I just know myself well enough to know when I won't like something, judging from what others say (facts, not so much 'what they thought'). I basically learn the facts of a book from someone more than the opinion.
Zanan 05-24-07, 04:18 AM	I don't have the book nor have I even seen it, but from what has been quoted from it in this thread it seems VERY much in keeping with GH/Gygax Drow. That is, a setting only in existence because it is the official core rules publication setting. In a way, it is like writing a new grammar for Latin. I still think the only reason TSR/WotC felt a need to 'bump-up' her status, along with several other 'Demon Lords', was because of the PR nightmare that could possibly happen by giving a demonic entity 'devine' powers. Essentially, it was always a requirement to be a deity to grant divine spells, at least in 3E. Dunno whether they deemed it necessary to go into any details about Abyssal Lords and their ability to grant spells before. In essence, this folk is nothing but a bunch of unique pit fiends, balors and the like. There is no reason why Demon Lords who receive worship can't grant spells... except the rules. Where does it stop though? What is required to grant spells? 30 HD, a realm, 10,000 mortal worshippers, 90,000 demons at your fingertips? See, it would go on and on and on. Far easier and more sensible to put a lit on this. So in my book (as well as my game), Lolth is STILL the Demon Queen of Spiders. She doesn't need 'godhood'... it's just a crutch. ;) Well, you apparently missed the point. Lolth always was a deity - even though she lost her divinity for a time. She's still a deity and the ranking of "Abyssal Lord" or her name "Demon Queen of Spiders" is nothing more than denominations of her rank and title. Nothing to do with her divinity.
Tiamat2 05-24-07, 09:21 AM	Call me cynical, but I find it hard to trust any opinion before I've had a chance to digest the information for myself and form my own opinion on a matter, however, afterwhich I like to get/view other opinions and re-evalute my own. Then again, thats probably the reason why my mom called me hard headed and destined to burn in hell for eternity:devil: blind faith is not a phrase in my vocabulary. It would have been difficult to know the full extent of DotU's, uh, nature without reading most of the first chapter. Its true that most FR fans could probably skim the first paragaph on religon and know that the book isn't for them, but GothicDan is right. To read enough of a book like this to know whether its useful or not (without trusting a review, such as would appear on Enworld or the reaction of other fans) in the bookstore before purchasing, seems kind of shady to me. In general if you know a reviewer is trustworthy or if they can hit some points that matter to you (like, for example, if someone quotes the passage in DotU that says the FR is grossly mistaken in how it presents Drow), I don't know why you wouldn't use that information to make a determination on a book. I usually buy everything that is even remotely interesting to me, because I fear that PnP will ultimately disappear without fanatical support from those who can do that, so I don't care about reviews one way or the other in most cases, but I think they can be very useful if you want to know something about a book before you purchase it. Edit: Lolth has not always been a god. There is a period of some indeterminate length between her being cast out from the Seldarine and the fall of the Ilythiiri where Lolth was simply a demon.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-24-07, 09:26 AM	I'd be intrested to haer more opinons on the 'Crunch' in the book, flavor text is mutable something I always fiddle with pending the needs of my campeghn (Cannon is a reference point, not a fettor) but I tend not to mess with prcs or faets untill Ive seen them in action a while.
MarkusTay63 05-24-07, 10:24 AM	Edit: Lolth has not always been a god. There is a period of some indeterminate length between her being cast out from the Seldarine and the fall of the Ilythiiri where Lolth was simply a demon.More to the point - In GH, she was NOT a god first. That was FR ret-conning at its finest. Lolth STARTED OUT as a Demon, and worked her way up the 'corporate' ladder. Only in FR was she Araushnee first. I reconcile this fact by saying that on the other worlds Dark Elves only became aware of her AFTER she was Lolth, because they had left Fäerie BEFORE she was cast down (since I still play in a multi-planar/wheel-centric universe). However, originally in 1e she was a Demon Lord and always had been. This may be off-topic slightly, but since we are talking about Drow here I had an idea. I borrowed the Waterdeep book from a friend a few days ago, and I was reading about how Halaster 'exterminated' the Drow. :eek: Halaster may very well be the Drow equivalent of "the Boogeyman". :D
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:33 PM	I'd be intrested to haer more opinons on the 'Crunch' in the book, flavor text is mutable something I always fiddle with pending the needs of my campeghn (Cannon is a reference point, not a fettor) but I tend not to mess with prcs or faets untill Ive seen them in action a while. I almost always alter the crunch (or exclude it altogether) and leaf the lore ('fluff') when looking through a book. I guess it's a matter of what you want in an RPG book. I'm buying the book for the story, the culture, the world. The system to support it is only peripheral, and with how little I've actually rolled dice in my AD&D/D&D games (DMing or playing), they seem superfluous at times.
Alediran 05-24-07, 02:58 PM	And there are those like me who love both roleplay and strategy games thus liking both fluff and crunch.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 03:01 PM	I love strategy, actually. I just think that strategy gets boring if you offer too many options.
Zanan 05-24-07, 05:54 PM	More to the point - In GH, she was NOT a god first. That was FR ret-conning at its finest. Lolth STARTED OUT as a Demon, and worked her way up the 'corporate' ladder. Nay ... GH apparently only had half her history (if any), so they missed the time before she was living in the Abyss entirely. See, what has she been before she was cast out of the GH Seldarine? (I actually wonder whether there actually was any detailed history of her in GH before the FR books came out? There are a few bits and pieces in The Complete Elven Handbook, but I wonder whether that was out after her story was been given in the FR sources.) Only in FR was she Araushnee first. Indeed. And unless I am mistaken, her old name and all that only came up with Demihuman Deities and the Evermeet, i.e. quite late by FR standards. I reconcile this fact by saying that on the other worlds Dark Elves only became aware of her AFTER she was Lolth, because they had left Fäerie BEFORE she was cast down (since I still play in a multi-planar/wheel-centric universe). However, originally in 1e she was a Demon Lord and always had been. ... i.e., she never was a cast-out of the GH Seldarine? This may be off-topic slightly, but since we are talking about Drow here I had an idea. I borrowed the Waterdeep book from a friend a few days ago, and I was reading about how Halaster 'exterminated' the Drow. :eek: Halaster may very well be the Drow equivalent of "the Boogeyman". :D That relates to an enclave of drow inhabiting the caverns Halaster wanted to use for his "Undermountain - Project".
MarkusTay63 05-24-07, 06:13 PM	i.e., she never was a cast-out of the GH Seldarine?Not as far as the Drow of GH knew, anyway. That relates to an enclave of drow inhabiting the caverns Halaster wanted to use for his "Undermountain - Project".I just thought that last bit was funny... I imagine the Drow telling their children about 'Halaster', to scare them into not wandering off. After all, they wouldn't want to scare their children into being 'good', would they? ;) Can you picture it, a half dozen Drow warriors armed to the teeth and bristling for blood... and all you do is whisper "Halaster"... and they go RUNNING! :rofl:
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-24-07, 06:23 PM	I think if you took anything with Int and wis more than 6 apice that lives within 100 miles of Waterdeep (in any direction, including vertical) and whispered 'Halaster' into its ear youd get that effect. Still a great image though.
Straploknight 05-24-07, 07:36 PM	This may be off-topic slightly, but since we are talking about Drow here I had an idea. I borrowed the Waterdeep book from a friend a few days ago, and I was reading about how Halaster 'exterminated' the Drow. :eek: Halaster may very well be the Drow equivalent of "the Boogeyman". :D Probably depends on the faction, boogeyman to some, human barely worthy of note to others (speaking in terms of drow of course). While we are wandering off the beaten path, Y'know something that always irked me (2nd Ed anyways and becaue my old DM was a stickler for enforcing rules that would place the party at a disadvantage -all the time) Asthanian PCs were resistant to some fear effect in Ravenloft due to the brutality of the Dark Sun world and Drow weren't because they aren't Native to Athas - I found that a bit odd for a race that lives in essentially the same conditions (not climatic mind you)
MarkusTay63 05-24-07, 10:30 PM	An English friend of mine told me a VERY interesting story about fear, pertaining to the Japanese in WWII (he fought in the Indian theatre). Everyone is afraid of something, you just got to know what, even the Drow. ;) In the Wheel of Time series, there is a race called the Aiel who live in the most brutal desert conditions. Their warriors are known to fear NOTHING, and a single one would gladly rush an entire army. The first time they saw a stream their teeth started chattering, the first river and they were physically shaking, and the first time one of them saw the ocean they nearly passed out. Even though they've been living in civilized lands for awhile, they still avert their eyes at the sight of large amounts of water. I expect that an Athasian would react much the same way. :cool:
GothicDan 05-24-07, 10:35 PM	Ugh... WoT....
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 11:51 PM	Edit: Lolth has not always been a god. There is a period of some indeterminate length between her being cast out from the Seldarine and the fall of the Ilythiiri where Lolth was simply a demon. -Yes, I made mention of that before, in this thread, I believe. Let me look for it... ...It was in another thread. Here we go: -Remember how we were talking about when exactly Lolth became a deity? As per Evermeet: Island of Elves, she was still a Demon when she scoped out the Dark Elves of Atorrnash. "Ka'Narlist's dark and vaulting ambitions set new flame to her own. Lloth would be a goddess once more." This implies that she was not yet a deity. This is about -24,400 DR. Later on, in -23,200, as Ilythiir is founded, we already know that Lolth is worshipped as a goddess, since the Sundering altered the general "worship breakdown" by eliminating most Vhaeraunians and Ghaunadaurans. If she indeed actually became a goddess at this point, that means that the transformation took place sometime between -24,400 and -23,200 DR.
Zanan 05-25-07, 04:17 AM	Can you picture it, a half dozen Drow warriors armed to the teeth and bristling for blood... and all you do is whisper "Halaster"... and they go RUNNING! :rofl: You see ... even though you're just taking the mickey here ... I doubt that a) any drow survived the archmage's assault, b ) he told them who he was, and c) any decent enough drow will quake in their boots about any human mage showing up himself. The only thing he has to stop anyone powerful enough slaying him is the good-will of the Wizards' designers. And maybe Mystra having a soft spot.
Zanan 05-25-07, 04:21 AM	Regarding "crunch" ... there is quite a bit which appears pretty useful and give some mystery back to the drow. The PrC (Insidious Corruptor aside) are quite good (I can Min/Max'ers loving the Cavestalker), the feats have a tendency to be quite powerful. Skills and languages are useful as well, especially tha part of Drow Sign Language.
Soltares 05-25-07, 05:10 PM	There 'may' be others, but Lolth is supreme in old GH. That sounds like how it is presented in this work. That may be how it's presented in the new book, but that's *never* been how it has been in 'old GH.' Drow were introduced in the GDQ series of adventures, which dealt with a major religious controversy between devotees of Lolth and devotees of the Elder Elemental god. Lolth has never been portrayed as monolithic in Greyhawk, save perhaps in her darkest power fantasies of how she *wishes* things were... As someone who has played (and run) a ton of Realms, and a fair bit of Greyhawk (haven't actually run a game in that setting), from back in the day when the Realms didn't even exist yet, this 'Drow-exclusive, all other gods are fake' stuff doesn't work for *either* setting. It's limiting, exclusionary and silly. But hey, it's a paragraph, two freaking inches across, in an otherwise useful book. Sshamath, my favorite Drow city, which is decidedly not-Lolth-dominated, is in no danger from this errant paragraph. If the paragraph said, 'Some people think that the Drow of Xendrik in the Eberron setting are associated with scorpions, but really, they are associated with spiders, just like other Drow.' my reaction would be the same. 'Shyeah, right. Setting-specific stuff trumps generic stuff.' Green Ronin's Plot & Poison is also a neat look at Drow. I'm particularly fond of some of the feats and setting info, and it went the opposite direction and introduced eight *new* Drow demigods!
XHereticX 05-25-07, 07:11 PM	An English friend of mine told me a VERY interesting story about fear, pertaining to the Japanese in WWII (he fought in the Indian theatre). Everyone is afraid of something, you just got to know what, even the Drow. ;) In the Wheel of Time series, there is a race called the Aiel who live in the most brutal desert conditions. Their warriors are known to fear NOTHING, and a single one would gladly rush an entire army. The first time they saw a stream their teeth started chattering, the first river and they were physically shaking, and the first time one of them saw the ocean they nearly passed out. Even though they've been living in civilized lands for awhile, they still avert their eyes at the sight of large amounts of water. I expect that an Athasian would react much the same way. :cool: Don't forget the Fremen of Dune, who were the original inspiration for the Athasians. In reality, there is nothing to fear but fear itself, that is what I believe(even though I have many foolish fears myself:D ) Anyway, my conclusion is that DoTU was just a new book that took a suprisingly two-dimensional and simplistic view of the drow in an attempt to win over new fans and not intimidate them with an excessive amount of complex social analyzation. DoTU just provided the bare minimum for the drow and most certainly does not provide the authority on the Drow as a race in whole. Whether you take its comments and very ideas to heart as insults to the FR ways, I would well like to remind you that it is not Realmslore and should not be taken in such a way that it actually has a lasting impact upon Realms canon. It is just like any other supplement wizards releases, use it if you like it, and if you don't, just ignore its existance entirely.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 10:53 PM	Whether you take its comments and very ideas to heart as insults to the FR ways, I would well like to remind you that it is not Realmslore and should not be taken in such a way that it actually has a lasting impact upon Realms canon. It is just like any other supplement wizards releases, use it if you like it, and if you don't, just ignore its existance entirely. But first make it known to WotC what you did and did not like about the books. Doing so in a respectful manner is probably the best way to do it, unless you can't choke down the bile. ;)
XHereticX 05-25-07, 10:56 PM	But first make it known to WotC what you did and did not like about the books. Doing so in a respectful manner is probably the best way to do it, unless you can't choke down the bile. ;) key word there is respectful. Sometimes things on these boards can get ugly.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 11:02 PM	I actually agree that the best way to get something done is to be respectful about it. It's largely why members of both side of America's bipartisan political system disgust me.
XHereticX 05-25-07, 11:10 PM	I actually agree that the best way to get something done is to be respectful about it. It's largely why members of both side of America's bipartisan political system disgust me. Totally agree with you. There is so much dirt flying around Washington that I wonder how the White House stays white. Personally I believe that the US government has come full circle in deviating from the basic sovereign principles that G.Washington and our founding fathers intended our nation to have and it makes me sick to think about it. Added with all the secrets that they hide from us every day, it makes you wonder how much influence Big Brother actually has in the manipulation of our own daily lives.
Lord Karsus 05-25-07, 11:24 PM	-Ixnay on the political discussion, as it is against the CoC. Though the WizO's never actually do anything here, since we are all so well behaved, and for the most part, are intelligent, let's not prompt them to do anything.
Tiamat2 05-26-07, 12:42 AM	Whether you take its comments and very ideas to heart as insults to the FR ways, I would well like to remind you that it is not Realmslore and should not be taken in such a way that it actually has a lasting impact upon Realms canon. It is just like any other supplement wizards releases, use it if you like it, and if you don't, just ignore its existance entirely. The book actually does insult FR lore. I know that I'm just repeating myself, but the drift here seems to be "oh, the book isn't realmslore so why worry about it?" The reason people should "worry" about it is that the book specifically states the scholars of the Realms are mistaken when they view the Drow as having a Pantheon of Gods. It says that the non-Lolth gods are not True Gods. The author of the book says that Wizards told them to treat non-Lolth gods as "saints" and to leave them out of the book and focus only on Lolth. I believe this presages a lasting impact on Realms canon and I believe pointing out displeasure to Wizards is not uncalled for. The "ignore it and shut up" tact that people sometimes suggest we should take isn't the most effective way to provide feedback.
Zandilar 05-26-07, 04:35 AM	Heya, The book actually does insult FR lore. I know that I'm just repeating myself, but the drift here seems to be "oh, the book isn't realmslore so why worry about it?" The reason people should "worry" about it is that the book specifically states the scholars of the Realms are mistaken when they view the Drow as having a Pantheon of Gods. It says that the non-Lolth gods are not True Gods. The author of the book says that Wizards told them to treat non-Lolth gods as "saints" and to leave them out of the book and focus only on Lolth. I believe this presages a lasting impact on Realms canon and I believe pointing out displeasure to Wizards is not uncalled for. The "ignore it and shut up" tact that people sometimes suggest we should take isn't the most effective way to provide feedback. Especially when you take all this in the context of the Lady Penitent novels, and what has happened thus far in the series.
BadCatMan 05-26-07, 05:45 AM	It's strange that they apparently limit the Drow to only one deity to prevent confusion, but added stacks for the other races in the Races Of series.
Andyr 05-26-07, 12:22 PM	Going back a few days and a few pages, but... Shhh, LK! That's besides the point! ;) I'll just giggle to myself at Beshaba living in the Abyss in core. Didn't she always live in the Abyss in the past? Layer 13, the Blood Tor? Perhaps I am missing the joke...
GothicDan 05-26-07, 01:25 PM	She did, in core. But now, she lives in the Barrens of Doom and Despair.. ... In the Tree.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 03:47 PM	-Gee, can anyone explain that...? :rolleyes: -Oh, what, she always lived there? But, what about...:rolleyes: -So, you're saying that there never was a Wheel...? :rolleyes:
BadCatMan 05-26-07, 10:36 PM	A god can live wherever they like, can't they? Summer house in the Abyss, winter residence in the Barrens.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 10:44 PM	So you have the same deity in multiple cosmologies... MULTISPHERIC DEITIES YOU SAY?
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 11:42 PM	-Who!? What!? There's no such thing!! There never was, and there never will be!! Blargh!! :rolleyes:
MerrikCale 05-27-07, 12:50 AM	so I shouldn't buy this right?
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 01:00 AM	-Do you want to fund Contra rebels?
dsheff 05-27-07, 02:57 AM	I never do that. You can't get a very good idea of how a book is without spending time reading it, and I refuse to read something in a store without buying it. Then it feels al most like stealing. Speaking as a manager in a bookstore, I love you, and wish more would follow your example. Then again, I spent half an hour looking for piles of 10+ books that people had taken off the shelf, looked at 2, and left for us to put away...
Mouseferatu 05-27-07, 04:53 AM	The book actually does insult FR lore. I know that I'm just repeating myself, but the drift here seems to be "oh, the book isn't realmslore so why worry about it?" The reason people should "worry" about it is that the book specifically states the scholars of the Realms are mistaken when they view the Drow as having a Pantheon of Gods. It says that the non-Lolth gods are not True Gods. The author of the book says that Wizards told them to treat non-Lolth gods as "saints" and to leave them out of the book and focus only on Lolth. Okay, folks, I haven't read the entire thread, so if I'm repeating anything that's already been said, forgive me. But guys, this is really making a mountain out of a molehill. There are elements to core books that apply only to the generic core setting (and Greyhawk proper, if you choose to play in it), and not to other settings. Just because the PHB mentions Pelor and Vecna doesn't mean they're part of the FR pantheon. Just because Manual of the Planes and the two Fiendish Codexes use the Great Wheel doesn't mean FR does. And just because Drow of the Underdark says that the drow (for the most part) worship primarily Lolth, doesn't mean that's the case in Faerun. (Or Eberron, for that matter.) It's a core book, not an FR book, and thus some of its details won't apply to FR as written. This, obviously, is one of them. I believe this presages a lasting impact on Realms canon... And, at least to my knowledge, you'd be wrong. Realms canon exists as written. The nature of Faerun's drow won't be changed by this book anymore than the nature of the Forgotten Realms cosmology was changed by the Planar Handbook.
Zandilar 05-27-07, 05:03 AM	Heya, First of all, I just have to say... I LOVE YOUR NAME!!!!!!! :D Okay, folks, I haven't read the entire thread, so if I'm repeating anything that's already been said, forgive me. This is why you probably would find it better to read an entire thread. But guys, this is really making a mountain out of a molehill. There are elements to core books that apply only to the generic core setting (and Greyhawk proper, if you choose to play in it), and not to other settings. Just because the PHB mentions Pelor and Vecna doesn't mean they're part of the FR pantheon. Just because Manual of the Planes and the two Fiendish Codexes use the Great Wheel doesn't mean FR does. And just because Drow of the Underdark says that the drow (for the most part) worship primarily Lolth, doesn't mean that's the case in Faerun. (Or Eberron, for that matter.) It's a core book, not an FR book, and thus some of its details won't apply to FR as written. This, obviously, is one of them. Here's the quote from the current DotU that's upset people (me included - bolded emphasis is mine): Elves revere Corellon Larethian above all others, but their religion is replete with other deities that are nearly as important. But for the drow, there is only Lolth. This comes as a surprise to many scholars, who believe the drow pantheon to consist of multiple deities. This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. The book specifically says that scholars of the Forgotten Realms are MISTAKEN.
Mouseferatu 05-27-07, 05:13 AM	Sigh... This is what I get for posting at 4 in the morning. I'd totally forgotten about that paragraph. :embarrass That said, despite the fact that we were told to focus solely on Lolth when writing the book, I am not aware of any intention to change the way FR books and novels are written in the future. (That doesn't mean such intentions can't exist; I don't claim to know everything the folks at WotC have planned. It just means I've heard of no such thing.) So that part of my post, at least, stands as written. Remember, the book doesn't say that the other drow deities don't exist at all; it says they're not nearly as ubiquitous, as widespread, or as central to the faith as Lolth. I'm sure they will continue to appear in whatever capacity future FR authors choose to use them. (This is why I don't work on the FR line, BTW. I haven't kept up with the novels, or all the latest FR releases, and I'd hate to write something that accidentally contradicted accepted canon; I know how important consistency in the setting is to you guys. I mean, look how much fuss I caused with one paragraph. ;))
Zanan 05-27-07, 06:02 AM	Sigh... (This is why I don't work on the FR line, BTW. I haven't kept up with the novels, or all the latest FR releases, and I'd hate to write something that accidentally contradicted accepted canon; I know how important consistency in the setting is to you guys. I mean, look how much fuss I caused with one paragraph. ;)) Never mind. We are well known for being ultra-fickle with every FR - lorebook that comes out too, not to mention the novels. As has been said, most of us are pretty upset that a lorebook was published for a nigh-dead setting on a topic so obviously FR-bound. Tons of information has been published for the FR drow and it was not exactly time for a full core book, as all that is needed for core is already written in the MM and the MM IV. It would have suited the gamers more if the book had been FR first and foremost (like the old TDotUD), with relevant additions to the other two ... ahem ... one-and-half settings. You see, the core players would simple strike out the FR names to get their Core drow. Yet, vice versa (as it is now), this is not possible. At least not for those steeped in the Greenwood TDotUD / Menzoberranzan tradition. Obviously, not a porblem that can't be addressed "on the table", but still one wonders why a decision was taken which will most likely harm the selling figures. As a core book, it is quite good though. And ... I for one appreciate your appearance on here! Obviously, now that we know the "person at fault", prepare for the White Banshee's howl! :evillaugh
Zandilar 05-27-07, 08:19 AM	Heya, Remember, the book doesn't say that the other drow deities don't exist at all; it says they're not nearly as ubiquitous, as widespread, or as central to the faith as Lolth. I'm sure they will continue to appear in whatever capacity future FR authors choose to use them. No, but it certianly implies that those entities (the so-called according to this version of DotU not-gods Vhaeraun, Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur et al) supposedly aren't as important in the Realms as we've been lead to believe. Which is patently ridiculous. (Come on, according to the Creator of the Realms, Ed Greenwood, 22% of Drow worship Eilistraee in one form or another and about 12% of Drow make up her clergy! How can that possibly be "not as important"? How does that make Eilistraee a "saint" or a not-god? It would have been far far better to not mention the Forgotten Realms at all IMHO.) Of course, all this means is I won't buy the book where previously I've been planning to. I want to say I'll reserve the right to buy it later, but I know I should stand on my principles and vote with my wallet. (This is why I don't work on the FR line, BTW. I haven't kept up with the novels, or all the latest FR releases, and I'd hate to write something that accidentally contradicted accepted canon; I know how important consistency in the setting is to you guys. I mean, look how much fuss I caused with one paragraph. ;)) I'm sorry. No matter how sympathetic towards you I want to be, this was not an accident. This was intentional. You and whoever else wrote that book were instructed to deliberately down play into insignificance gods other than Lolth, and made the decision to use the words Forgotten Realms in the same paragraph. As I said above, it could have been written in such a way as to not mention the Realms at all - people might still have noticed it's absence, but they would be able to say "meh, it's a core product." Right now, though, there's going to be a whole lot of confused Realms Drow fans (given only a minority use these forums).
Tiamat2 05-27-07, 11:04 AM	And, at least to my knowledge, you'd be wrong. Realms canon exists as written. The nature of Faerun's drow won't be changed by this book anymore than the nature of the Forgotten Realms cosmology was changed by the Planar Handbook. I hope I am wrong, but I don't think so. I believe WotC wanted the DotU written as it is so that it will function as a general Drow lore book after the events of a certain infamous FR novel series. I think that explains why the paragraph says that FR scholars are mistaken and specifically mentions two FR gods who are not "true" gods, even though they have always been true gods in the Realms.
MarkusTay63 05-27-07, 11:19 AM	@Mouseferatu - Thank You for coming here and defending what you wrote. We always appreciate authors perspective's, even if we disagree with them. That being said, it would have went a long way if that single line didn't appear in the book - instead of 'Forgotten Realms' it could have been worded 'certain other settings'. Ambiguous would have been better; as Zandilar has said, FR fans would have been more inclined to buy it if it didn't directly contradict established lore. As it stands, its pretty useless to us. BTW, whats the point of making setting-specific books for a setting that only exists in Core? Drow were 'monsters' in old-school Greyhawk, and didn't really need much more then the MM to use them. They were two-dimensional, and really did not require any sort of 'fleshing-out'. I liked Gygax, but he kept his adversaries simple, and that is why GH became Core - because it is a simpler setting to follow. The real question is -Was there a conscious decision on someone's part to not only ignore FR (NO sidebars?!), but to go out of their way to alienate a very loyal following? As customers, some decisions just seem a little odd to us. WotC take note - more people would buy the core books if you at least gave us a few sidebars. There is an excellent series of articles here about how to use some of the core classes with FR, and INCLUDING something to that effect in each book would be an intelligent business decision. A few extra pages vs. thousands of more fans willing to spend their money; it's not brain surgery people. How about with EVERY core book released we get a Web Enhancement (released simultaneously) for each setting. In this way, FR fans can download the 20 or so pages pertinent to them, and Eberron fans could do the same. You guys save on printing, and we ALL get our campaign-specific book. Just make sure you mention the add-ons in the very begining of each core book, because a lot of people don't know about all the extra goodies available here at the WotC website. -we are all so well behaved, and for the most part, are intelligent, let's not prompt them to do anything.Speak for youself! I take a lot of pride in my immaturity. :D
MerrikCale 05-27-07, 11:53 AM	-Do you want to fund Contra rebels? is that a bad thing?
XHereticX 05-27-07, 01:54 PM	Haven't you noticed that the bigger the fuss you make, the worse the problem becomes for you;)
BrennonGoldeye 05-27-07, 02:22 PM	I'm going to get the book on Monday. I'll chime in then. :) Finally got a chance to finish it last night. I liked it. I agree that it has next to no fluff for the FR. Crunchwise it's quite useful. Since I love texture in all it's forms I'll give it :plotting::plotting::plotting: out of 5.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 02:24 PM	That seems very fair, Brennon!
BrennonGoldeye 05-27-07, 06:01 PM	That seems very fair, Brennon! Yeah, but don't tell anyone.;)
Lord Karsus 05-27-07, 06:28 PM	is that a bad thing? -Depends on if you are affiliated with the Nicaraguan government or not. I wasn't actually responding to your initial question, though. I was actually making you a preposition...:evillaugh Remember, the book doesn't say that the other drow deities don't exist at all; it says they're not nearly as ubiquitous, as widespread, or as central to the faith as Lolth. -Thank you...
GothicDan 05-27-07, 07:01 PM	-Thank you... If that's what the book was saying, we'd agree. But that's not how we are reading it. It says that the Drow DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER THE OTHER GODS TO BE TRUE GODS. That is super very uber different than what Mouseferatu inferred.
Tiamat2 05-27-07, 07:14 PM	If that's what the book was saying, we'd agree. But that's not how we are reading it. It says that the Drow DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER THE OTHER GODS TO BE TRUE GODS. That is super very uber different than what Mouseferatu inferred. Exactly. Excellent point that's been made a lot on this thread and ignored even more often.
MarkusTay63 05-27-07, 07:19 PM	The scarey thing is, with the near-useless WotSQ series and the new series, this book may be leading into what is to become FR canon. :( The fact that she was ordered to make it Lolth-centric makes me wonder what they were thinking, and if they had those series in mind the whole time. I really REALLY hope not.
GothicDan 05-27-07, 07:34 PM	And, sadly, Markus makes a good point, there. :(
XHereticX 05-28-07, 10:24 AM	The scarey thing is, with the near-useless WotSQ series and the new series, this book may be leading into what is to become FR canon. :( The fact that she was ordered to make it Lolth-centric makes me wonder what they were thinking, and if they had those series in mind the whole time. I really REALLY hope not. I REALLY don't want that to happen. But I suppose... Hark the bell....it tolls for thee drow pantheon:emp: And besides, Lolth is the best drow deity ever anyway.
Alediran 05-28-07, 10:58 AM	And besides, Lolth is the best drow deity ever anyway. Don't make me bring the bug killer.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-28-07, 11:06 AM	I'll say this simply. They can print it, I may even purchase it, but my campeighn is mine, and nothing obligates me to use it. Cannon and realmslore are sugestions, starting points. Defalt settings. Nothing more.
Tiamat2 05-28-07, 01:54 PM	I'll say this simply. They can print it, I may even purchase it, but my campeighn is mine, and nothing obligates me to use it. Cannon and realmslore are sugestions, starting points. Defalt settings. Nothing more. I used to feel the same way. Long live Myrkul, Mystra I, Bhaal, and Lleira! But, it gets harder to use the Realms as a setting if they keep taking in unpleasant directions. The ToT is already hard to completely omit. If they eliminate the Drow Pantheon, that's just another strike against the setting. I enjoy buying and reading new Realms sourcebooks, but TSR was bent on destroying the setting's balance and now Wizards, after a few remedial efforts that I was impressed with, seems bent on simplifying the setting for a core audience. Its not a good sign.
SwordofShar 05-28-07, 03:42 PM	I thought the book was a big let down. I know it wasn't going to be a FR specific sourcebook, but I thought it would at least have sidebars or conversion notes, or even a chapter or two explaining "how to use this sourcebook in FR campaigns". I could also predict the "greyhawkness" just by looking at the cover, which bummed me out the minute I got the book. I only wish they would make a Drow sourcebook dedicated completely to FR drow, with items, feats, published character stats (and updates) and noble house make-ups stated (like how cities are broken down in other FR sourcebooks) for each house, or at least a few of the notables. And maybe a formula for creating your own drow houses for FR (like the formula in the DMG for creating towns). But I'm sure this is all wishful thinking. My opinion is..... for FR campaigns, this book provides very little use for the detail-oriented FR DM or player.
XHereticX 05-28-07, 04:02 PM	I used to feel the same way. Long live Myrkul, Mystra I, Bhaal, and Lleira! But, it gets harder to use the Realms as a setting if they keep taking in unpleasant directions. The ToT is already hard to completely omit. If they eliminate the Drow Pantheon, that's just another strike against the setting. I enjoy buying and reading new Realms sourcebooks, but TSR was bent on destroying the setting's balance and now Wizards, after a few remedial efforts that I was impressed with, seems bent on simplifying the setting for a core audience. Its not a good sign. That, I can agree with you. I also don't like the dumbing down of the FR setting into core. So, what do you think we can do about it?:(
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 05:50 PM	If that's what the book was saying, we'd agree. -The author just said that that is what the book says, and/or what his intention was.
Tiamat2 05-28-07, 05:51 PM	-The author just said that that is what the book says, and/or what his intention was. That isn't what the book says, whatever the author's intention was. The book makes a broader point than that Lolth is the central Drow goddess.
XHereticX 05-28-07, 05:52 PM	So then the question is, what is more important. Intention or actual content as interpreted by fans?
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 05:55 PM	That isn't what the book says... -The author says this is what the book says, and I interpreted it very similarly.
Tiamat2 05-28-07, 06:01 PM	-The author says this is what the book says, and I interpreted it very similarly. You interpreted the words the Drow "do not consider them [deities other than Lolth] true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion . . . as they do Lolth" as only saying that Lolth is the most powerful Drow goddess? How do you interpret the phrase "for the drow, there is only Lolth"? Where are the "most Drow" or "Lolthite drow" qualifiers that are needed to conform to FR lore? No qualifiers exist in this section. Instead we are told that FR scholars are mistaken; they will be surprised to learn that "entities" (direct quote, not deities) such as G and V are "barely visible". Once again, we are essentially re-starting the entire thread. That quote cannot possibly apply to followers of Eilistraee, Vhaerun, Ghaunadaur, etc. The author intended to carry out the WotC edict that other Drow gods were to be treated as "saints" and be minimized. For some reason my quoting of the passage is not sufficient. I suggest people read p. 15 of DotU for themselves and see if they think that the only point the author is making is that Lolth is the most important Drow deity. Its pretty clear to me that the point is that Lolth is the ONLY drow deity.
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 06:13 PM	-The point is that it must not be as concrete as you believe it to be, because you are interpreting it your way, and I am interpreting it my way. Thus, it's not as precise as "1 + 1 = 2".
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:29 PM	LK is starting to remind me of Markus on this particular topic. ;)
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:29 PM	Intention or actual content as interpreted by fans? Both are important.
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 06:35 PM	LK is starting to remind me of Markus on this particular topic. ;) -I'm not as..."extravagant" as MT. ;)
Tiamat2 05-28-07, 06:44 PM	-The point is that it must not be as concrete as you believe it to be, because you are interpreting it your way, and I am interpreting it my way. Thus, it's not as precise as "1 + 1 = 2". It is always possible to claim virtually anything, but that doesn't change the plain meaning of words. If I say that the word "cat" refers to a reptilian beast that lives in the Andes and you say that it refers to a "feline", we are not both correct. If DotU says that non-Lolth gods are not "true gods", that is not the same as saying Lolth is the most important Drow deity.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 06:46 PM	We could break the statement down, word for word, and see exactly where it is that LK is reading something differently than the rest of us...
Zandilar 05-28-07, 08:11 PM	Heya, Breaking down the quotation line by line, sounds just like something one should do when one is snarky and sick. :P Here we go... "Elves revere Corellon Larethian above all others, but their religion is replete with other deities that are nearly as important. But for the drow, there is only Lolth. Drow only worship Lolth. She's the only one that matters in any Drow's life, unlike the namby pamby Elven pantheon that has lots of deities, which makes them weak and unworthy foes. This comes as a surprise to many scholars, who believe the drow pantheon to consist of multiple deities. These scholars are just poor dumb, deluded beasts that would shrink in fear if they ever actually came across a Lolthite priestess. This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. The scholars of the Forgotten Realms better look out. They try to compare the true glory of the Drow to the Elves - whom we have already established are namby pamby idiots, who weaken themselves by splitting their faith. (What? Eilistraee? No, you're mistaken. No Drow would ever take that traitor to be a true goddess! *spits* There are no Eilistraeean Drow! How insulting for you to suggest that!) But these deities, no matter how strongly an individual drow might revere them, are secondary at best, barely visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen. The drow honor them, but they do not consider them true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion - or fear them half as deeply - as they do Lolth. It is she and she alone who stands at the heart of drow religion." These other entities aren't gods at all. No, not at all. Lolth is the great Sun of Black Fire that Burns the Heretics. The others are useful in their turn, but they are NOTHING compared to Lolth. No true Drow actually worships them!
GothicDan 05-28-07, 09:49 PM	I'm frankly shocked, all kidding aside, that LK really is trying to take a defensive stance on this book, when the writing is pretty clear to almost everyone else. He's usually a logical kind of guy. All of that politics must be getting to his brain. :(
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 10:06 PM	-Asides for the statement that Vhaeraun, Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, Selvetarm and Kiaransalee aren't "true deities" (which brings up the question, just what exactly is a "true deity" anyway), there is nothing that that quote stated that I find any fault with.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 10:08 PM	"Elves revere Corellon Larethian above all others, but their religion is replete with other deities that are nearly as important. But for the drow, there is only Lolth. That, by default, is saying that "for the Drow" (Drow in general, not just some or most Drow), there is only Lolth. We know that 22% worship Eilistraee alone, and that the Drow of Faerun are still at least partially polytheistic (they worship multiple members of the Anti-Seldarine). How does that statement actually represent the numerical truth?
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 10:10 PM	-I voiced my opinions multiple times. Go back and look them up, if you wish.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 10:22 PM	But your opinions don't seem to actually be addressing the references we're pointing out. To me, it almost seems like you're not even reading them, and just stating what you think things should be like. At least, that's how I'm interpretting the way you're interpretting things... *Deals with drunken father.*
Tiamat2 05-28-07, 10:42 PM	There's no longer any point in arguing this. Good luck to anyone who wants to continue. If someone continues to say 1 and 2 make 4, what are you supposed to do?
GothicDan 05-28-07, 10:47 PM	I still love you, LK, even if I don't understand the workings in your brain. <3
Burningspear 05-28-07, 11:14 PM	-It seems that I'm the only one seeing the "broader picture", here. -The faiths of Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, and to a lesser degree, Ghaunadaur, are, effectivley, the way they are because of Lolth. Were Lolth not in the picture, said faiths would be dramatically different. Thus, Lolth, in the broader sense, is the most important deity of the Drow. Effectivley, Lolth has, intentionally or not, shaped the faiths of her rivals, in a sense. And, whether they know it or not, the other members of the Anti-Seldarine, and their worshippers, play into this idea, by simply acting as they do. -Ed's notes don't debunk anything I am saying, and really don't actually pertain to what I am saying. Hmmz, its a shame they killed of another god who was doing exactly the same, but he got written of, so the end effect is opposite of what she has been getting, :bigeyes: :rant: . Gilgeam, Lord of Unther and master of all the land and all the people in/ on it.
Zanan 05-29-07, 04:09 AM	That, by default, is saying that "for the Drow" (Drow in general, not just some or most Drow), there is only Lolth. We know that 22% worship Eilistraee alone, and that the Drow of Faerun are still at least partially polytheistic (they worship multiple members of the Anti-Seldarine). How does that statement actually represent the numerical truth? Last time I read Ed's comment on these 22% I thought I read that 22% of the drow "worship Eilistraee". Nothing about that they "worship her alone (and none other)", which would only be true of her church, as he put it, ... and that was distinctly smaller than 22% of all drow.
GothicDan 05-29-07, 04:21 AM	Sorry, I should have said, "We know that 22% alone worship Eilistraee..." Technically, what I used is used almost always to mean that, but it's still a misplaced modifier. :) I would have said, "We know that 22% worship ONLY Eilistraee," had I meant what you said. Silly languages.
Starchaserva 05-29-07, 01:54 PM	I thought it was an okay book, nothing to inspire revelations, and chances, are, I won't ever really use it, but reading a lot of the stuff on this thread has led me to have several "wtf" moments, mostly concerning the glorious little tidbit about the Realms being wrong about the Drow Pantheon. One thing that I have noticed, since a certain character came around, the idea of meeting of a non chaotic evil (or netural evil) drow has become more cliche than a campaign in which regular drow end up being the main antagonists. I'm in a campaign right now, that takes place in the underdark, and we have a couple of drow amongst pcs and cohorts, and not one of them is of the average drow alignment (and being evil is accepted in the game)
Lord Karsus 05-29-07, 04:27 PM	I still love you, LK, even if I don't understand the workings in your brain. <3 -Well, that's good, I guess. If you understood, then you'd agree with me. Apparently, I'm not expressing myself properly.
GothicDan 05-30-07, 05:43 PM	I think you're expressing yourself properly. I just don't think what you're expressing is what the book is expressing.
Stigger 05-30-07, 07:17 PM	Or perhaps you're just not comprehending the brilliance that is LK's mind...
GothicDan 05-30-07, 07:19 PM	Quantum mechanics says it's possible. If not probable.
Stigger 05-30-07, 07:26 PM	Quantum mechanics has little to do with the workings of the mind... particularly one like the Karsii.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 12:03 AM	-Stigger's stock just went way up! :)
msatran 05-31-07, 04:44 AM	Look. I think it's time to table this thread guys. It's obvious that everyone's reaction to this sourcebook regardless of why we felt that way was an allergic one.
Zanan 05-31-07, 04:55 AM	I thought it was an okay book, nothing to inspire revelations, and chances, are, I won't ever really use it, but reading a lot of the stuff on this thread has led me to have several "wtf" moments, mostly concerning the glorious little tidbit about the Realms being wrong about the Drow Pantheon. Well, if you are, e.g. at the end of a 6-novel series about the drow pantheon and 1/3 through a trilogy with the same topic, I wonder how FR people should react if they get told that these deities and their squabbles is actually just a misconception by the drow of the Realms. All those involved are just pawns and pretenders of godhood. One thing that I have noticed, since a certain character came around, the idea of meeting of a non chaotic evil (or netural evil) drow has become more cliche than a campaign in which regular drow end up being the main antagonists. I'm in a campaign right now, that takes place in the underdark, and we have a couple of drow amongst pcs and cohorts, and not one of them is of the average drow alignment (and being evil is accepted in the game) One of the major disappointments was the explanation about the drow's alignment. While many on here have wondered for years, how drow society would survive with a default CE alignment of the race, most were satisfied with the 3E/RE rule that drow are actually in general NE. That made society as a whole - i.e. chaotic priestesses and priests aside - more "workable". Yet, DotUD goes on and tells us that all drow are chaotic by nature and would have descended into madness and chaos long ago, if not for the power of the priestesses and the cowing of the goddess. That a) further diminishes the thought of more than one deity (in the Relams) and b ) is more or less a straight contradiction of the Monster Manual alignment NE. Why change it in the first place when it is not the drow's alignment, but the "alignment of their society"? :confused:
GothicDan 05-31-07, 12:43 PM	Quantum mechanics has little to do with the workings of the mind... particularly one like the Karsii. Literally, it has a lot to do with it. Philosophically, I think there's a big connection. Faraer's recently reccommended a writer to me on the subject.
Zanan 05-31-07, 06:33 PM	Literally, it has a lot to do with it. Philosophically, I think there's a big connection. Faraer's recently reccommended a writer to me on the subject. And I am not sure whether I'll recommend the blade of a WizO's scythe to your postings :teach:
GothicDan 05-31-07, 06:38 PM	I fear not the scythe! I AM INVULNERABLE. But I'll stop. Because I want to! ;)
XHereticX 05-31-07, 08:20 PM	I think that DoTU was written the way it was because it was supposed to provide the drow from a biased spider-kisser POV. The entire book seems like something a depraved Lolthite would have written about his/her race. I noticed this pattern in many WoTC books recently (ex. HoTA, the entire book seems to put the demons at the center of the cosmos). Just think of it as some form of literary roleplaying.;)
msatran 06-01-07, 02:42 PM	That's an interesting theory. I prefer to believe that with limited space, they tried to make it as much of a DM reference document as possible, since the other book that month, Complete Champion, was mainly for players. Still, one of the biggest problems with the book is that staggering critical feat. If you have a high range weapon, there's no reason not to take it. It's when you confirm. It doesn't matter if the crit is successful or not. Once you crit and slow them, you can either move on to another target within range and be out of their range, or, god forbid, if you're a dervish, and/or have the spring attack feat tree, your party will kill everything else on the board FOR SURE. If you can slow two or three opponents in a single round, assuming that your characters are high enough level to acquire this feat (BAB 12), those people are all dead. At those levels, if you get slowed for even a single round, anything that gets slowed, barring a character so close to death that everyone has to throw healing stuff at them, you will die. Yes, it's a feat that's supposed to reward teamwork, and I heartily support that in the newer, more egocentric version of the game, but did they have to do that without offering a save at 10 + 1/2 level + STR Bonus?
Soltares 06-01-07, 07:23 PM	Yet, DotUD goes on and tells us that all drow are chaotic by nature and would have descended into madness and chaos long ago, if not for the power of the priestesses and the cowing of the goddess. Wasn't this the way it was presented in Menzoberranzan, with 'the Way of Lolth?' I loved the atmosphere of the city, but really could not wrap my brain around how incredibly fanatically *lawful* the Drow following the Way of Lolth were portrayed. Having the city split into factions, in a constant state of tension, to the point of perpetual nigh-civil war, such as the original depiction of Erelhei-Cinlu, back in D1-3, would, IMO, have better suited such a chaotic and fractious people, not having them all march in lockstep with a rigid caste system and harsh authoritarian dictates on every quibbling little thing. I don't think I've seen a proper 'chaotic' presentation of the Drow yet. Even the original was a bit too orderly, and it's only gotten much worse, with not just Drow, but surface elves as well becoming hyper-organized and cooperative and cohesive, with all sorts of rules and traditions. I'm not sure that the problem is with the presentation of Drow, as with myself having a fundementally different notion of the difference between 'chaotic' and 'lawful' societies than many of the writers, who have presented supposedly 'chaotic' peoples living in dogmatic, authoritarian uber-lawful societies with strict heirarchies and codes of behavior. A Drow city, IMO, should make Mos Eisley look like a theme park. Noble Drow, including high priestesses, shouldn't be wandering around whipping people with snake-headed whips for parking violations, they should only travel outside of their gated compounds with a dozen or more elite guardsmen, to protect them from the inevitable assassination attempts and intrigues of their fellows, including particularly their fellow high priestesses, who would be eager to get a leg up on the competition by decapitating their rivals. For 'the Way of Lolth' to work the way it's been presented, either in this latest Drow of the Underdark, or in Salvatore's novels, Lolth would have to spend 24/7 squatting in Menzoberranzan, smacking down every single Drow who did anything she didn't like. The race would be extinct in about 30 minutes, by my estimates, and Lolth would be all alone, surrounded by dead bodies. They don't really play by the rules well...
Zanan 06-02-07, 03:56 AM	Indeed Soltares. The new alignment (NE) would have given the DM a perfect, egoistic by nature, (Lolthite) drow, ruled by an elite of (mostly) chaotic priestesses who nonetheless have to obey a certain strict hierarchy. While striving for power, you have to make sure that your race, city, and kin does not suffer overly, else Big Mum will be dissappointed. Matter of fact, Demihuman Deities gave a good alignment choice for Lolthite drow worshippers (LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE) and clergy (CN, LE, NE, CE). One can only hope that - after so much change from the Core Rules with regard to the Realms - we will see a Faiths book which returns us to these more detailed and IMHO more more feasible alignment "restrictions".
GothicDan 06-02-07, 12:00 PM	That's a mighty big hope, Zanan. And I feel similar for clergy of Corellon. We've been told in numerous sources that Sun Elves are the foremost Clerics of the Seldarine, and we've seen in both lore and statistics that they tend to be Lawful as much as Chaotic, yet in the current edition, he can't have LG Priests, even though Feywardens could be "Any Good" in 2E? Either a bunch of Sun Elves must have just switched alignment throughout the millennia (man, that'd cause some historical ripples) or Corellon's lost a lot of Priests. And I won't use this book to support my "Drow society is stupid because it claims to be CE, and that makes no sense given the population figures," argument. I dislike it that much. ;)
XHereticX 06-02-07, 12:49 PM	Then again, FR tends not to focus so much on alignment as it does on ethnicity, portfolio, culture, and background.
GothicDan 06-02-07, 06:28 PM	And I always thought that Greyhawk focused more on the Law vs. Chaos axis of the alignment scale...
XHereticX 06-03-07, 08:19 AM	And I always thought that Greyhawk focused more on the Law vs. Chaos axis of the alignment scale... Nope, its similar to FR, except good and neutrality aren't always thrown into the same package and evil has far more power and influence. Planescape I noticed always tended to focus on law vs chaos.
Soltares 06-04-07, 04:00 AM	And I won't use this book to support my "Drow society is stupid because it claims to be CE, and that makes no sense given the population figures," argument. I dislike it that much. ;) And seriously, what's with those population figures anyway? Aren't Elves supposed to be all in decline, with a falling birthrate and low constitution? But those Drow, for a society full of women that don't actually ever take time off to have babies, sure do have hundreds of thousands of expendable male kids... Do they make them out of spiders using Polymorph Any Object ('cause Lolth does give Trickery, clever gal!), or do Drow females perhaps lay egg-sacs containing hundreds of males that all hatch at once? My favorite part of the Menzoberranzan boxed set was the notion that an island 200 ft. across had a herd of Rothe on it that supplied the 20,000 residents of Menzoberranzan's dietary needs. An island 200 ft. across couldn't support a single cow. Not even half a cow. It might support a goat, if it was extremely lush... 20,000 Drow apparently can subsist on the smell of goat poop, wafting in from across the lake. No wonder they're cranky, and so thin! If I lived for 500 years and never actually got to eat anything, I'd be lean and mean, too!
Zanan 06-04-07, 06:34 AM	@ Soltares ... may I put just one word to dent your food argumentation: magic! Apart from that, we all know that drow life on a diet of baked babies, so they will have large breeding kennels for goblins, kobolds and somesuch :cool: Essentially, there has near to nothing being said about the workings of the food supply of a drow city, not even the pretty detailed Menzoberranzan. There are a few bits of info (that island), but nothing to draw good conclusions from. Then again, food supply is of no concern for a DM anyways. As for drow females, close reading will let you know that females do compete for every inch with one another, yet most if not all of that power struggle is reserved for the 5 to 10 % of nobles of each drow city. The others do compete, but it is no mass slaughter et al week in and week out. Reproducing ... somewhere a sourcebook said that drow reproduce faster than elves, out of necessity. They also have/had a shorter life span (natural) ... well, Underdark might have changed that.
MarkusTay63 06-04-07, 12:49 PM	I actually understand exactly what you are saying, LK, and believe I said much the same earlier in this thread. Regardless of weather a Drow worships Lolth or not, they ALL fear her, and thats in itself is a pretty big part of their lives. If you worship Eilistraee, or Vhaerun, and you live in an average Drow city like Menzoberranzan, then Lolth is most definately hanging over your head every single minute of every day. Two things I have noted and liked in this thread - the idea that this book was written from a Lolth-O-Centric veiwpoint (the Church of Lolth?), and the idea that good drow are becoming so Cliche' that they are becoming MORE common then the evil ones. Maybe I should put this in one of the 'Future Realms' threads, but I can see somewhere down the line a a group of Dark Elves known as "Driztonians" running things below, and a scant secretive few 'Drow' left to keep up the 'old ways'. ;)
Faraer 06-04-07, 12:55 PM	Nope, its similar to FR, except good and neutrality aren't always thrown into the same package and evil has far more power and influence.That's unadulterated blurf. Evil is not more dominant in the Flanaess than in Faerűn by any measure: common regional alignments, rulers, monsters, gods and priesthoods, extraplanar influence, or non-government organizations.
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 04:23 PM	I actually understand exactly what you are saying, LK, and believe I said much the same earlier in this thread. Regardless of weather a Drow worships Lolth or not, they ALL fear her, and thats in itself is a pretty big part of their lives. If you worship Eilistraee, or Vhaerun, and you live in an average Drow city like Menzoberranzan, then Lolth is most definately hanging over your head every single minute of every day.. -Said Drow don't even have to live in Lolthite cities to have Lolth hanging over their heads. By just being Drow, that "stigma" is already there, no matter where they are.
Zandilar 06-04-07, 08:15 PM	Heya, Regardless of weather a Drow worships Lolth or not, they ALL fear her, and thats in itself is a pretty big part of their lives. If you worship Eilistraee, or Vhaerun, and you live in an average Drow city like Menzoberranzan, then Lolth is most definately hanging over your head every single minute of every day. LK, you can take this as addresses to you too... Regardless whether a human worships <insert evil human deity here> or not, they ALL fear <insert correct pronoun>, and that's in itself a pretty big part of their lives. Right? Wrong. Those Drow who don't live in Lolthite cities, who worship deities other than Lolth, are in about the same position as a human who lives in Waterdeep (rather than Zhentil Keep). They might fear and hate Lolth, but I don't think she's the biggest thing on their minds day in, day out. Why? They have much more important, much more immediate things on their mind - like day to day survival in a world that hates them. Lolth might be the ultimate (and distant) cause of this, but it doesn't mean Eilistraee, Vhaeraun et al aren't true gods... Which is what DotU blatantly states. Two things I have noted and liked in this thread - the idea that this book was written from a Lolth-O-Centric veiwpoint (the Church of Lolth?), and the idea that good drow are becoming so Cliche' that they are becoming MORE common then the evil ones. This idea (that I bolded), makes me grind my teeth and spit blood. The more people jumping onto that bandwagon, the more I can see WotC killing Eilistraee (or making her CN) at the end of the Lady Penitent series, and because Eilistraee is one of my favorite of all Realms deities, it makes my blood pressure soar (which is not a good thing, given I'm already on medication for it). Besides which, the idea is completely untrue and unsupported by any fact you care to name. Yes, 22% of drow worship Eilistraee, but only 10-12% are her clergy. Eilistraeean Drow clergy can be NG, CG, and CN. The 22% figure represents drow who are not evil - not drow who are good... 22% of non-evil drow still leaves 88% who are evil... So "good" drow are not more common than evil drow. Maybe I should put this in one of the 'Future Realms' threads, but I can see somewhere down the line a a group of Dark Elves known as "Driztonians" running things below, and a scant secretive few 'Drow' left to keep up the 'old ways'. ;) :rolleyes: People sure do like to exaggerate, don't they?
Soltares 06-05-07, 01:15 AM	The more people jumping onto that bandwagon, the more I can see WotC killing Eilistraee (or making her CN) at the end of the Lady Penitent series, and because Eilistraee is one of my favorite of all Realms deities, it makes my blood pressure soar (which is not a good thing, given I'm already on medication for it). I always thought a goddess of dancing nekkid with sharp objects wasn't long for this world anyway. Her brother, the god of running with scissors, also didn't make much of a mark in the world.
Stigger 06-05-07, 01:20 AM	I think the point with all of the drow living in Lolths shadow stems more from the fact that they have very few safe havens to run to, and that an assault by Lolths worshippers or her servants is something that weighs heavily on them. They can't exactly run to the surface, at least not into most populated areas, and in the event of discovery have to have a bolt hole back into the Underdark if the local humans decide to purge those 'evil' dark elves, which also unfortunately isn't too comforting since its also an avenue of threat from their Lolthite cousins... most humans who fear the evil human deities don't live under that sort of constant threat, so its a very different story for them, if you see my point there.
BadCatMan 06-05-07, 02:39 AM	Just a random thought on Eilistraee, more a question really. How many run-of-the-mill evil Drow would pay homage to Eilistraee, on an occasional basis? (Not talking clerics or taking her as patron/matron deity.) She's also a goddess of hunting and swordwork, making her a perfect choice for drow warriors, hunters, assassins and weapon masters alike to venerate when required, even the CE Llothite ones (at least secretly). In fact, as a goddess of doing all these things completely nekkid, she seems like the perfect deity for the average drow male.
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 08:38 AM	How many run-of-the-mill evil Drow would pay homage to Eilistraee, on an occasional basis? (Not talking clerics or taking her as patron/matron deity.) -"I’d say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerűn worship Eilistraee - - although I must again remind scribes to set aside any modern monotheistic thinking: in the Realms, the vast majority of intelligent beings worship many or at least several gods, NOT just one. It’s not easy to truly believe in and worship Lolth and any other drow deity, but a particular drow individual COULD venerate both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (though they’d serve neither well, in trying to follow or honour both). Drow who ONLY worship Eilistraee are almost entirely her clergy, and are probably between 10 and 12 percent of all drow." In fact, as a goddess of doing all these things completely nekkid, she seems like the perfect deity for the average drow male. -You'd think that.
Zanan 06-05-07, 06:57 PM	BTW ... DotUD has near to no word on "good" drow. As for drow males and Eilistraee's hobbies. 1) Most drow males have no clue about her and if they do, their life span shortens to days and hours. 2) Eilistraee does not dance and work about naked ... 3) ... nor do her priestesses. Just check the relevant sources. 4) Her cult is strictly female and as such much like Dianas (Roman deity) ... again, check the sources ... and as for males happening by or wanting to participate - see 1). 5) Assassins? She's chaotic good and has nothing to do with assassinations et al. In fact, she's more a touch of Ilmater than anyone else.
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 07:23 PM	2) Eilistraee does not dance and work about naked ... 3) ... nor do her priestesses. Just check the relevant sources. 4) Her cult is strictly female and as such much like Dianas (Roman deity) ... again, check the sources ... and as for males happening by or wanting to participate - see 1). -"Eilistraee appears as an unclad, glossy-skinned female Drow." -"She is a goddess of song and beauty, goodness and light, worshipped through song and dance, preferably in the surface world, under the stars of a moonlit night." -"For rituals they [Priestess' of Eilistraee] wear as little as possible." -"In rare circumstance, males who worship Eilistraee..." (Demihuman Deities)
Zandilar 06-05-07, 08:26 PM	Heya, As for drow males and Eilistraee's hobbies. 1) Most drow males have no clue about her and if they do, their life span shortens to days and hours. Zandilar, Eilistraee has always gained converts and made herself known to drow through dream-visions and personal appearances (usually dancing in moonlit woods). Many, many drow long to return to the surface and live among trees (it’s a race instinct, that some recognize for what it is - - whereas other drow just feel always unsettled and edgy, and usually turn this into fighting amongst themselves, and family and/or trading rivalries), and Eilistraee has far more worshippers than the drow who dwell under the firm influence of Vhaeraun or Lolth (who is by far the most powerful of drow deities) would have one believe. Now, I know not everyone takes Ed Greenwood's comments as "gospel" (despite the fact that it is in his contract that his words are canon unless contradicted by published sources (unless that's changed while I was away)), but I quote this because it wasn't made real clear in Demihuman Deities, and I was always wondering how Eilistraee gained any converts. Eilistraee reveals herself to the Drow, because otherwise your average Drow wouldn't know diddle squat about her - Lolth is jealous, and I'm sure Vhaeraun wouldn't want any chance of his converts slipping away to his "whimpy" sister. I won't mention the other Drow deities, but all being evil, I'm sure they'd think it would be to their advantage to keep word of Eilistraee away from their followers - whatever anyone learns about her from the followers of evil deities is going to pretty distorted. They would not paint her in a particularly good light. Also, Eilistraee's write up in Demihuman Deities shows her to be a particularly welcoming deity. Not only does she welcome Drow, but those of other races as well. Mostly female, but there are plenty of males who venerate her. They may not be clergy (though in the same post from Ed, he mentions that Eilistraee has slowly been relaxing that restriction - I don't like it, and I'm not going to justify my dislike again since it's a gut reaction, but there is it), but they certianly participate. Sure, there are some rituals they'll be excluded from - but as a general rule, lay worshippers are included in many of the rites and rituals of Eilistraee's faith - like the High Hunt, or the Run, for example. There's absolutely no reason why they couldn't run and hunt and help those in need with the rest of Eilistraee's faithful. I think part of the reason why many posters feel that Eilistraee should be more gender inclusive is because they don't realise this. They seem to think that males are excluded from everything to do with the faith - but they're not. They can be Rangers, they can participate in all but the most sacred of rituals and rites, and her brightness in the mind (for lack of a better way of putting the true presence of a deity) does not lessen just because the worshipper is male.
XHereticX 06-05-07, 09:08 PM	That's unadulterated blurf. Evil is not more dominant in the Flanaess than in Faerűn by any measure: common regional alignments, rulers, monsters, gods and priesthoods, extraplanar influence, or non-government organizations. Oh yes it is. Hmm, lets see, we have the most powerful nation in the Flaness an evil nazilike empire ruled by a demigod. Oh, don't forget the horned lands, the scarlet brotherhood, the church of Hextor and others that actually serve a purpose besides as antagonists and openly hold great political power throughout the continent. In Forgotten Realms you may find villains lurking in long lost tombs and hideouts, plus a few cities which are more hidden, but in Greyhawk in nearly every nation and every town you find evil clerics, yes evil clerics, actively persecuting and preaching their oppressive beliefs. Plus the fact that there is only like one good aligned nation in Greyhawk, most of them are neutral and a great deal of them are evil. And neutrality actually takes its own stance instead of siding with good at every opportunity.
GothicDan 06-05-07, 11:44 PM	Wow, Heretic. You seem to have some major misnomers as to how alignment works in the Realms. The various "evil" organizations of the Realms have agendas all their own, apart from "kill the good guys."
msatran 06-06-07, 12:09 AM	Wow! Big Error... Umm...THAY! LUTHCHEQ AND THE KARANOK FAMILY! ZHENTIL KEEP! (But Let's call them what they really are after 1375, the Moonsea Empire!) Ring the bell if you can say EVIL... DING.... EEEEEE-VILLLLLLLLLLLLL! Not to mention...Calimshan! EVIL. The Pasha rules through stealth, guile, assassination, and being the boss of EVERY THIEVES GUILD IN THE LAND! Did I mention Thesk? Who really rules? The Shadowmasters of Telflamm...EVIL! Amn? Who really rules? The Shadow Thieves....DING...EVIL! The Dragon Coast! Who really rules here? Once again...mostly....EVIL... Luskan...they control a fairly sizeable portion of territory, once again...DING...EVIL... It's not like evil has no influence, especially since Tchazzar took over Mulholrand...BONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG! Advanced Colossal Red Dragon and his leadership feat! CR 40 EVIL! Beat THAT without Elusive Target and being able to avoid Power Attack, Elminster! For god's sake, you people just have no concept of just how much evil there is in the realms. Hell...you can be Lawful Evil and be a Lord of Waterdeep WITHOUT BETRAYING THE CITY! They won't ding, because detect evil doesn't detect them once the helmet is on...but still...if the helmet ever comes off....DING...EVIL!
Zanan 06-06-07, 04:27 AM	First, whom do you try to lecture here? :cool: -"Eilistraee appears as an unclad, glossy-skinned female Drow." Only? -"She is a goddess of song and beauty, goodness and light, worshipped through song and dance, preferably in the surface world, under the stars of a moonlit night." How many drow males will enjoy that? Ergo, a line for those surface drow and surfacers that happen to be near. Didn't say she doesn't do it. -"For rituals they [Priestess' of Eilistraee] wear as little as possible." Nothing against that, but that does not mean that they walk about naked all day long. Various novels also said that - much like the Diana cultists - they will make short work on any male watching on. And, as has been pointed out by Ed lately too, males are only accepted once they have changed genders. -"In rare circumstance, males who worship Eilistraee..." Yes? Regarding Ed's comment cited by Zandilar: Many, many drow long to return to the surface and live among trees (it’s a race instinct, that some recognize for what it is - - whereas other drow just feel always unsettled and edgy, and usually turn this into fighting amongst themselves, and family and/or trading rivalries), and Eilistraee has far more worshippers than the drow who dwell under the firm influence of Vhaeraun or Lolth (who is by far the most powerful of drow deities) would have one believe. You see, this is almost a direct contradiction to what we have learned about the drow of the Underdark. And especially of those who live in Lolthite cities. These have seen the surface only occasionally (i.e. raids) and have been indoctrinated horror-stories about the Sun and the surfacers for generations. Do drow "long" for the surface, after 10 millenia in the Realms Below? And many many males at that? If they "long" for something, it would be some more gender equality (not provided by either Vhaeraun or Eilistraee, BTW). No lorebook or novel I have read about the drow says something about drow wanting to get back to the surface in larger numbers - i.e. that excludes the Vhaeraunites and Eilistraeens BTW, as they try to make a living up there already and will continue to struggle for centuries to come. Those below want revenge first and foremost and it is in their nature to regard themselves as the best beings about anyway, so if they come to the surface after all, it won't be to get redeemed ... (From what? It's their ancestors that have been punished and all that a drow has learned is that his race has to suffer the Realms Below because of some "mad" Elven deity's judgement. That deity's kin cursed the drow to live in the Underdark and thus it is the drow's right to hunt these punishers of the Past today. So, how on Ea.. Toril can a drow be redeemed? Had the elves tried to redeem the dark elves of Ilythiir, fair enough. If anyone would be up for redemption these days, it would be those heirs of the elven high magic users who sent all dark elves below ground and have them die in their thousands back then. Modern-day drow have - IMHO - every right to "hate" their surface kin and that "hate" cannot be a target of redemption.) ... but to rule it. It's not that they see the trees and sun and hear the song of Eilistraee and fall to their knees in joy and happyness - being "back where they belong". That might have worked a decade after the Descent. The drow of today are a different dyed-in-the-wool-Underdark race entirely. All just MHO, of course.
Zandilar 06-06-07, 08:36 AM	Heya, Nothing against that, but that does not mean that they walk about naked all day long. Various novels also said that - much like the Diana cultists - they will make short work on any male watching on. And, as has been pointed out by Ed lately too, males are only accepted once they have changed genders. They have to spend some times in female form, they don't have to spend all their lives in female form. Sure, they tend to spend longer and longer in female form (which is something Ed also mentioned), and some probably remain in female form permanently... But I don't think they need to be in female form to attend the innermost rituals of Eilistraee's faith. I am merely defending this because of fairness. I personally don't like it. I would ignore males being admitted to the clergy if I were to run a game in Faerun. Now I'll revisit the quote you quoted... heh... Many, many drow long to return to the surface and live among trees (it’s a race instinct, that some recognize for what it is - - whereas other drow just feel always unsettled and edgy, and usually turn this into fighting amongst themselves, and family and/or trading rivalries), and Eilistraee has far more worshippers than the drow who dwell under the firm influence of Vhaeraun or Lolth (who is by far the most powerful of drow deities) would have one believe. You underlined the first line... I'll highlight the bit I think is most important in this paragraph... You see, this is almost a direct contradiction to what we have learned about the drow of the Underdark. And especially of those who live in Lolthite cities. These have seen the surface only occasionally (i.e. raids) and have been indoctrinated horror-stories about the Sun and the surfacers for generations. Do drow "long" for the surface, after 10 millenia in the Realms Below? I don't think it contradicts anything... It's a racial instinct and it makes Drow grumpy. It is not something that is consciously acknowledged or even understood. It gets turned into bickering and infighting, leaving them constantly on the edge and uneasy. They don't know what it is. And many many males at that? If they "long" for something, it would be some more gender equality (not provided by either Vhaeraun or Eilistraee, BTW). I don't think Drow males want gender equality. We are talking about a psychopathic race here, one that is "always" Evil. I think males would want to put the females under their thumb and pay them back for every bit of pain and humiliation they suffer under the not-so-gentle ministrations of the females. No lorebook or novel I have read about the drow says something about drow wanting to get back to the surface in larger numbers - i.e. that excludes the Vhaeraunites and Eilistraeens BTW, as they try to make a living up there already and will continue to struggle for centuries to come. 22% of Drow worship Eilistraee in one form or another. Who knows how many belong to Vhaeraun, but it might be about the same. That makes 44%. That's not a small minority by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, that would count as "large numbers" would it not? Those below want revenge first and foremost and it is in their nature to regard themselves as the best beings about anyway, so if they come to the surface after all, it won't be to get redeemed ... They want revenge, but they're not going to go to the surface to take it? You said it - they don't want to return to the surface any more... How would they get revenge on their surface cousins if they don't take the fight to them? How would they rule the suface elves if they didn't want to return to the surface? Anyway, their instinct to return to the surface world is not an instinct towards redemption. You said it perfectly - they won't come to the surface to be redeemed, they'll come to rule it or to take revenge... So there must be a desire amongst most Drow to come to the surface - otherwise it makes no sense that they would want to gain revenge on beings that won't come to them. Obviously, the surface elves are not going to seek them out in the Underdark.
Soltares 06-06-07, 11:34 AM	1) Most drow males have no clue about her and if they do, their life span shortens to days and hours. 22% of Drow serve Eilistraee in some way, and the entire male population have no clue that she exists? Wow. That's even crazier than the, 'all Drow worship only Lolth, and think the other gods are fakes' line. Oh, and they butcher any male who finds out about them? Neat. If you want the CG worshippers of a CG goddess to murder any male who comes near them like complete psychopaths, go for it. Just don't be surprised when the old Detect Evil keeps throwing back confusing readings indicating that the mad-killer-priests are actually not CG any longer. 2) Eilistraee does not dance and work about naked ... 3) ... nor do her priestesses. Just check the relevant sources. Did. They do. I don't know about 'work about naked' means, but they do dance naked, and in their very first appearance in Dragon magazine, the picture was of a female dark elf dancing naked surrounded by candles.
MarkusTay63 06-06-07, 12:35 PM	Don't want to get too involved in this one, but I think it's awfully strange that the one good member of the Anti-Seldarine would kill any males willing to become good and follow her. I guess that's why Drizzt chose Mielikki - he doesn't look good in drag. That sex-change thing is perhaps one of the oddist requirements I've ever heard of. In RW mythology, it was ONLY women who took part in the Bachaellian revelries, but in 2e Legends and Lore, along with stuff from Planescape, they could be of either sex. This goes against RW canon, but fits better in the D&D 'Equality' scheme of things. I don't disagree with Eilistraee's practices... I just find them VERY odd. Is there NO hope for Drow males then? :confused: Also, there is a HUGE difference between the 'respect' humans and demi-humans give to other deities, and that accorded to Lolth by Drow. The comparrison is VERY poor. Any human taking a sea-trip will make an offering to Umberlee, but she doesn't hang over there heads constantly. The best comparrison I can make is to the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages -theoretically you COULD practice other forms of worship, but you would be hunted down and killed if the church found out. The Inquisition had NOTHING on a bunch of angry Lolth Priestesses with snake-whips! That is an example of a God hanging over the heads of a race, and non-worshippers living in fear. In the Realms you don't fear Gods that don't directly effect you on a daily basis, even though you do believe in them. A 'good' person will still make the appropriate offerings to an 'evil' god, but only when doing business directly in their sphere of influence. I always found D&D cosmology/pantheons hard to fathom, because they don't really fit into any RW religions that I know of. The closest correlation I can find is to primitive tribal societies, that believe in the other nearby tribe's gods, yet still only worship their own. Its hard to imagine this sort of system making its way into more sophisticated cultures, because people tend to obliterate other cultures gods when encountered in later centuries (or just as often, absorb them into their own pantheons). Lolth is definately in a category all her own, and I think any attempt to quantify her merely diminishes her in some way.
GothicDan 06-06-07, 02:10 PM	I always found D&D cosmology/pantheons hard to fathom, because they don't really fit into any RW religions that I know of. The closest correlation I can find is to primitive tribal societies, that believe in the other nearby tribe's gods, yet still only worship their own. Its hard to imagine this sort of system making its way into more sophisticated cultures, because people tend to obliterate other cultures gods when encountered in later centuries (or just as often, absorb them into their own pantheons). Uh. Greek City States, Markus? ;) I often mentally link Faerun with Classical cultures. It seems an interesting amalgamation of Classical religion and Western European.
MarkusTay63 06-06-07, 07:53 PM	Yes, but City-states still ALL had a VERY unified pantheon, even if they had a specific civic deity. Even if one city under-played Aries, you could still worship him there in one of the 'generic' pantheonic temples, and likewise with any of the other gods. If Faerűn, not every city has a temple to every god, and NONE have a house of worship for the 'Faerűnian Pantheon', so you would be out of luck if you were looking for a temple that the city did not approve of. My tribal comparison meant that each different tribe in a region (lets say, of Africa) would have different gods, but they would still believe that the other tribes gods were real, but wouldn't pay homage to them in any way. The Gods of the Farűnian Pantheon are not related in any way. Even in pantheons where some gods are not related to the others, they are still a tightly knit group (Ptah and Thoth of the Pharaohnic Pantheon, for example). Even in cases of an evil god, such as Loki of Norse Mythology, he still 'hung with' the other gods. I can't see Mystra, Kelemvor, and Cyric getting together to talk about 'old times', it just wouldn't happen. Nor would Bane call up Mielikki for a date, the way Hades wooed Persephone - there simply is no social interaction bewtween them. There are those 'mini-pantheons' that I really like, but beyond that there isn't a whole lot of the unity we see present in RW mythic pantheons. All RW pantheons can be considered a single religion, but in Faerűn (and most other D&D worlds) it is more like each god has his own seperate religion, which is quite odd considering that Faerűnians believe in ALL the gods, even if they do not worship them at all (as in the case of Ubtao and Ulutiu, or even the entire Pharaohnic Pantheon). To believe in a god, but not have him/her as part of your religion is just a very alien concept to me - even Satan is part of Christianity. The church teaches us about him as part of the dogma; but you really don't see that with FR's religions.
Faraer 06-06-07, 07:59 PM	Formal ceremonies are only one form of worship. Not every settlement has a temple to every god, but people still worship them. And there are places of worship to the pantheon, such as Waterdeep's Plinth. And what makes you think the gods aren't related? We have a complex picture of their alliances, rivalries and enmities. They don't interact socially (!) because they're not people (though some worshippers may see them somewhat in those terms, and they're figuratively portrayed that way in the Avatar novels). On the other hand, the term "Faerűnian pantheon" exaggerates the uniformity of worship, through communication and assimilation, across Faerűn. It's to some extent a theoretical construct, since every lesser god (certainly every demipower) isn't actively worshipped or even known everywhere.
MarkusTay63 06-06-07, 08:27 PM	You can worship ANY god at the Plinth? :confused: I know next to nothing about Waterdeep's 'internal workings', so even though I have all but the latest product I haven't really read most of it. If there exists a place where all gods of Faerűn can be worshipped, then I stand corrected. But I still see the worship of individual gods more along the lines of seperate religions, which should NOT be the case within a pantheon. Seperate sects, like in the cae of many Greek deities, is entirely different. Some of the 'old-school' 2e products had myths incorporated in them. Something like that, with stories about the inter-action between deities, would go a long way in unifying the pantheon in my mind. We have a few, like the Creation Myth and the Story of Jergal and the Evil three. More like that would be a welcome addition to FR lore, IMHO. Am I the only one who wants to see more 'myths' in our cosmology, and less crunch? :(
Zandilar 06-06-07, 08:45 PM	Heya, You can worship ANY god at the Plinth? :confused: Now my memory on this is rocky, so there may be inaccuracies over this... Someone'll correct me, I'm sure... When Ao appeared in Waterdeep at the end of the Time of Troubles, a great number of people caught a glimpse of him. Some of them decided to worship him, and thus errected the Plinth. The problem was, eventually these worshippers figured out that their prayers were going unanswered, and that their memory of Ao was fading over time (Ao doesn't want worshippers, he doesn't respond to them, and doesn't give them any help in the Afterlife - they end up being treated as Faithless, as far as I know). So they had this big temple like building, but no god... Therefore the Plinth was given over to be a public space where anyone could worship any of the Faerunian Pantheon. Priests of deities who don't have formal temples in the city, will go there to minister to the faithful. Personally, I think there are more temples like this in the Realms than we've been lead to believe - because, you're right. It doesn't make sense otherwise. Small towns are likely to have shrines dedicated to multiple gods (tended to by a priest of adept of one of the deities represented), and people will probably have house shrines to their personal gods. In general, though, a god will hear a prayer where ever it's prayed without the need for a holy symbol or shrine. Am I the only one who wants to see more 'myths' in our cosmology, and less crunch? :( I don't think you are. :) I'd like to see more myths too. I'd like to see more indepth write ups on all the gods, how they're worshipped, and where they're worshipped. But don't expect to see a product like this ever. It has something to do with a policy of downplaying fictional religions.
Faraer 06-06-07, 09:00 PM	Yes, the Plinth is a place of worship for all faiths. It was around long before the Time of Troubles, though the Ao cult sometimes went there afterwards. Also, many people worship at household shrines. No doubt, the separation of churches is unusual compared to our world. Are you the only one who wants to see more myths? I imagine not.
GothicDan 06-06-07, 10:52 PM	I feel that deific mythologies and cultural differences in religion is one of the things that printed material is seriously lacking. I absolutely love the cultural influence of religion, historically and fictitiously, even if I'm an atheist myself. Any novel I write would very likely heavily center around, or at least incorporate, religion.
Lord Karsus 06-06-07, 10:59 PM	Only? -No, not only. But, that disqualifies your statement that, "Eilistraee does not dance and work about naked." How many drow males will enjoy that? Ergo, a line for those surface drow and surfacers that happen to be near. Didn't say she doesn't do it. -You just did- "Eilistraee does not dance and work about naked ... nor do her priestesses". Now, as a male, I can tell you that, were I a Drow who just happened upon their rituals, I would enjoy said rituals, for obvious reasons. Nothing against that, but that does not mean that they walk about naked all day long. -No, that certainly isn't the only thing they do. Demihuman Deities lists a host of different things they do. But, again, you said that they don't. They do. Yes? -You said that "Her cult is strictly female". It's not. Demihuman Deities says otherwise.
Zanan 06-07-07, 04:26 AM	Heya, They have to spend some times in female form, they don't have to spend all their lives in female form. Sure, they tend to spend longer and longer in female form (which is something Ed also mentioned), and some probably remain in female form permanently... But I don't think they need to be in female form to attend the innermost rituals of Eilistraee's faith. Gender change for males ... who then get on liking the female gender more than their own simply to join in with the other divine spellcasters ... ... dunno, the longer I think of the this, the more farcical it becomes. Won't answer everyone's objections and comments to my remarks. Time and having said it all before and somesuch, you know. LK ... -No, not only. But, that disqualifies your statement that, "Eilistraee does not dance and work about naked." ... and the citation thereafter. Now, that's wrong. I was just commenting on the remark that people apparently think that she and her priestesses are always / often naked and somesuch, which is not the fact. They do so during their rituals (or while spending their leisure time maybe). But while on daily business, they are not naked. Wasn't that hard to gather, right? -You said that "Her cult is strictly female". It's not. Demihuman Deities says otherwise. DD, p. 14, first paragraph under "The Church". And rest assured, I know that she has male "followers", but I was speaking of her "cult/-ists" - in the sense of "clergy". Furthermore, I also know that 3E has not said anything about that restriction so far ... and we have to live with Ed's comment above. Soltares ... 22% of Drow serve Eilistraee in some way, and the entire male population have no clue that she exists? Wow. That's even crazier than the, 'all Drow worship only Lolth, and think the other gods are fakes' line. Just take a breath and think. The Lolthite cities are strictly, and I mean strictly, monotheistic. If there is religious teaching, it is about Lolth and done by Lolthites. Now, you can imagine by yourself, what they will tell about Eilistraee (if anything at all) or what happens if a male knows/asks something about the Dark Maiden. As for being "crazy" care to look into DD ... The followers of Eilistraee are figures of legend in both the Underdark and the Lands of Light. They are the subject of superstitions and wildly inaccurate mistruths, held by surface dwellers to be the evil vanguard of the Spider Goddess's plot to plunge all of Faerun into darkness under her rule and held by those drow who follow the Way of Lolth (or other evil gods) to be faerie (surface elf) invaders masquerading as dark elves in preparation for the coming war of annihilation. Rare is the individual - dark elf or not - who appreciates that Eilistraee is forging her own path, one that welcomes beings of all races who revel in life and the free form expression of all that entails. ... or remember how a decently schooled drow like Ryld thought about the Eilistraeens. Heretics, nasty heretics ... and even more heretics ... all of them to be mistrusted. He took A while to understand the Dark Maiden's paths, yet still he did not join up.
Leukrythus 06-07-07, 09:02 AM	-No, not only. But, that disqualifies your statement that, "Eilistraee does not dance and work about naked." Damn... I was considering a religious conversion.
GothicDan 06-07-07, 12:56 PM	I don't think I've seen Zanan so vehemently trying to defend a weird viewpoint about the Drow in many months. ;) I think the information about Eilistraee we have is pretty clear cut. They often dance naked (every day, at least once, they probably either have a ritual or leisure time, if not both), that Eilistraee most likely appears in some vision-form to all of the various Drow (probably doing so only once drops in below Lolth's 'radar'), that she encourages males to see things from a female point of view (and notice that not ALL females have to be misanthropic towards males; I see nothing wrong with this, and I'm a sodding gay male, so if anyone would, it's me), and that about 22% worship her (though not exclusively her). Not too hard, is it?
Zanan 06-07-07, 03:44 PM	I don't think I've seen Zanan so vehemently trying to defend a weird viewpoint about the Drow in many months. ;) Mainly working in the background ... you know, the spider that waits and all. Now wait, that would be my Lolthite half ... ahem ... quarter, well, whatever. Busy writing revisions on various books these days, apart from working, animating dead, sending out retaliation crews and all that. Speaking of which, Leuthilspar on Evermeet? Maybe I send some brachinas to pay you a visit ...
MarkusTay63 06-07-07, 03:54 PM	Given the chance, I would GLADLY become a female Drow and dance about naked... and I AM NOT gay. In fact, I TRULY despise men physically... INCLUDING myself. Of course, if I were a HOT looking female Dark Elf I would NEVER leave my house.... :rolleyes:
msatran 06-07-07, 04:50 PM	Markus Tay for PRESIDENT!
GothicDan 06-07-07, 05:37 PM	I'll have to run against him. NAKED GIRLS GROSS. Zanan: What idiot High Mage wouldn't have a Mythal-cloaked tower that didn't, among other things, bar evil-aligned Outsiders? And Drow, of course. ;)
Straploknight 06-07-07, 06:20 PM	Given the chance, I would GLADLY become a female Drow and dance about naked... and I AM NOT gay. In fact, I TRULY despise men physically... INCLUDING myself. Of course, if I were a HOT looking female Dark Elf I would NEVER leave my house.... :rolleyes: Man, I bet 300 was a pain to watch.
MarkusTay63 06-07-07, 06:27 PM	Never made it through the whole movie. Hated Alexander as well. In my book he went from hero to Zero. :( The TV series Rome is a tough one - although there is quite a bit of female sex, there is WAY too many 'man' moments as well. Never been a very big Spartacus fan either. ;) I actually stopped watching NYPD Blues the day they showed the fat guys ass. :yuck: I have absolutely nothing against gay people, I just can't deal with male nudity... it makes me barf.
GothicDan 06-07-07, 06:28 PM	Zomg. 300. *Dies happily.* Oddly enough, I feel the exact same way as Markus, about female nudity. I get physically ill, for some reason.
Lord Karsus 06-07-07, 06:40 PM	Busy writing revisions on various books these days, apart from working, animating dead, sending out retaliation crews and all that. -Anything good on the press? Of course, if I were a HOT looking female Dark Elf I would NEVER leave my house.... :rolleyes: -Here, here! I have absolutely nothing against gay people, I just can't deal with male nudity... it makes me barf. -Here, here! Doesn't make me physically ill, but it's something I don't look forward to, and avoid at all possible costs.
Straploknight 06-07-07, 06:44 PM	Make that 3 on Alexander, although I did like Troy. Although I'm not a big Brad Pitt fan ( I secretly hoped when the movie was announced that he would have been Hector) I liked Rome, intially I checked it out, cause Indira Varma ranks pretty high on the desirable-geneto-mate list, but after watching the show I really liked Lucius Vorenus (official description - The hard essence of a professional Roman soldier. Honorable and severe, he is unforgiving and pitiless when crossed. A dour and pragmatic man, with a tendency towards self-laceration.) Truly a characater that rates high on my bad assery list!
MarkusTay63 06-07-07, 08:11 PM	Rome is the perfect embobiment of a D&D campaign. It shows how the small guy MATTERS. The little things that the two friends do have reprecussions that echo through time. The one guy bangs Cleopatra AND kills Cicirro! He might not have made it into the history books, but the adventures him and his buddy have definately have all the feel of a good RP game. So I can forgive the couple 'gross' scenes. ;) I wonder what sort of biological mechanism causes one persons stomach to turn, while turning another person on? I remember when I was younger I would defend gays because people back then thought it was some sort of choice, but because of my own problem I knew that a person had NO control over what he felt.
XHereticX 06-07-07, 08:50 PM	Wow, Heretic. You seem to have some major misnomers as to how alignment works in the Realms. The various "evil" organizations of the Realms have agendas all their own, apart from "kill the good guys." Oh, I am quite aware of how alignment works in the Realms. Evil does what evil does in every world, corrupt and conquer. But what I am saying is that the whole balance of power in the Realms is tipped towards good and neutrality(which are packed in the same book often in the Realms anyway). Evil tends to be more hidden in the realms due to its lack of power, you don't exactly have evil clerics in every town actively preaching their agendas and the good clergies being the ones hiding often like in Greyhawk. And there is no powerful "justice league" type organization like the chosen of Mystra. At best there is the circle of eight, which has shown its ability to be internaly betrayed and corrupted(Rary) and is neutral at best. Then again, that is why I prefer the Realms, Greyhawk is a little too dark and gritty for my tastes and I prefer a more mystical and high fantasy setting.
GothicDan 06-07-07, 08:56 PM	But what I am saying is that the whole balance of power in the Realms is tipped towards good and neutrality(which are packed in the same book often in the Realms anyway). Eh. I'd say things are pretty balanced. And also, I liked Troy a lot - as well as 300. I saw parts of Alexander, and it mostly depressed me. I try to ignore historical inaccuracies when I watch such films.
XHereticX 06-07-07, 09:32 PM	Troy was a great movie. I heard 300 was better though.
GothicDan 06-07-07, 09:41 PM	Sort of was, sort of wasn't.. It's a little harder to ignore historical inaccuracies with 300, since it's at least a somewhat well-documented historical battle. The sieges of Troy were more mythological/fantastic than actually historical.
Straploknight 06-07-07, 10:23 PM	There is a heaping butt load of inaccuracy with 300, but dont let that deter you. They should delete the definition of awesome in the dictionary and just replace it with a 300 DVD.
GothicDan 06-07-07, 10:38 PM	It.. Really wasn't THAT good. And this is coming from the guy who drooled every minute the Spartans were on screen. I say 4/5. But then again, I can't think of a movie I'd give a 5/5 to. Maybe the sci-fi channel's Dune.
Zanan 06-08-07, 08:26 AM	-Anything good on the press? On the press? Well, regarding the revisions, Unclean get's a thumbs up (apart from the length of the series ... it just turns Thay on its head for three real-time years), as does Shadow's Witness. Depths of Madness ... well, it wouldn't be that high on my reading list, even though it is not too bad. The main character lost a bit of flair, given that she is (supposedly) a chosen of Erevan. @ GD ... it's been done before, it will happen again.
Straploknight 06-08-07, 10:06 AM	It.. Really wasn't THAT good. And this is coming from the guy who drooled every minute the Spartans were on screen. I say 4/5. But then again, I can't think of a movie I'd give a 5/5 to. Maybe the sci-fi channel's Dune. hah, the definition of Awesome only rates 3/5, ergo 300 is a much better representation of the word Awesome. Matter of fact, we should spread the glory of 300 throughout the universe, by blasting millions of copies into space (just in case Chuck Norris should decide to ascend to a higher plane), 300 has the cojones to ward off both earth shattering asteriods and any possible alien overlords that might be interested in subjugating this backwater mudball.
GothicDan 06-08-07, 12:23 PM	@ GD ... it's been done before, it will happen again. Certainly not while I'm protecting Evermeet!
GothicDan 06-08-07, 12:25 PM	hah, the definition of Awesome only rates 3/5, ergo 300 is a much better representation of the word Awesome. Matter of fact, we should spread the glory of 300 throughout the universe, by blasting millions of copies into space (just in case Chuck Norris should decide to ascend to a higher plane), 300 has the cojones to ward off both earth shattering asteriods and any possible alien overlords that might be interested in subjugating this backwater mudball. The best part was truly the hot guys. And I still liked Brad Pitt more. I can't help if it I go for the fair look... I also sort of have a hate-on for Spartans. Athens all the way. "We hit things. Dahurr.." "We experiment and create art, and have science and philosophy!" "WE HIT YOU!"
Faraer 06-08-07, 12:46 PM	In Forgotten Realms you may find villains lurking in long lost tombs and hideouts, plus a few cities which are more hidden, but in Greyhawk in nearly every nation and every town you find evil clerics, yes evil clerics, actively persecuting and preaching their oppressive beliefs.What's your evidence for this difference?Plus the fact that there is only like one good aligned nation in Greyhawk, most of them are neutral and a great deal of them are evil.Eh? Evil nations in the World of Greyhawk: Bandit Kingdoms, Great Kingdom, Horned Society, Land of Iuz, Pomarj, Scarlet Brotherhood. Good nations: Almor, Bissel, Furyondy, Geoff, Highfolk, Keoland, Nyrond, Theocracy of the Pale, Perrenland, Shield Lands, Sunndi, Ulek states, Urnst states, Veluna, Yeomanry.And neutrality actually takes its own stance instead of siding with good at every opportunity.Like when?But what I am saying is that the whole balance of power in the Realms is tipped towards good and neutrality . . .This canard has been debunked on these forums ad nauseam.And there is no powerful "justice league" type organization like the chosen of Mystra.That's a complete misunderstanding of Mystra's Chosen. Both settings have many more evil power groups than good.
msatran 06-08-07, 01:12 PM	I would have to say that the Scarlet Brotherhood really tips the scales though. They're evil monks who advise rulers. It's an ORGANiZATION OF EVIL VIZIERS! How much more equal do you need?
GothicDan 06-08-07, 01:24 PM	I could see some canny Sharrans doing the same thing in Faerun, though. And if Cyric wasn't so insane, maybe him. And Mask. And MAN I wish Leira wasn't dead! But I always did love the name "Scarlet Brotherhood." I want to include a city in my crazy fantasy/sci fi world called the Scarlet City.
Faraer 06-08-07, 01:42 PM	Just counting the alignments of rulers is misleading, because so much political power in the Realms is held not by open governments but by merchant and criminal cabals, evil cults, priesthoods of all alignments, doppelganger brotherhoods, and other powers behind the throne. That's why Forgotten Realms Adventures has a (very oversimplified) "Who Really Rules" field. Thus the Twisted Rune is very dominant in the South, the Dragon Cult in Sembia, etc. The From the Ashes World of Greyhawk is, it's true, a deliberately "dark" and post-apocalyptic setting. That isn't the Greyhawk I think of, and the Roger Moore-era setting (more or less the one we've been seeing in Dungeon and Dragon in the last few years) also went a lot of the way back towards Gygax's balance of power.
XHereticX 06-08-07, 08:47 PM	For one, none of those "good" nations you brought up are actually good nations. Ex. The theocracy of the pale has a very dark side and nearly all of those governments are corrupted by evil clergies. I am not saying that evil does not hold power in the Realms, but it generally tends to hide away a little from the shining light of good and whenever good and evil confront evidentially in the high fantasy tradition evil loses and is driven back into the shadows. And there is not one evil organization of Faerun that holds as much influence as the Empire of Luz does on the Flaness. Nothing really can stand against it and it it constantly pounded by all the various nations AND the horned society and still seems to reamin on top. As anyone which setting is darker and more gritty and Greyhawk will be the obvious answer. Faerun may have evil power groups, but it lacks evil power groups that actually have much power.
Faraer 06-08-07, 09:15 PM	As anyone which setting is darker and more gritty and Greyhawk will be the obvious answer.That hearsay exists, but it has nothing to do with the actual settings.Faerun may have evil power groups, but it lacks evil power groups that actually have much power.You can't substantiate that even slightly.
XHereticX 06-08-07, 09:20 PM	That hearsay exists, but it has nothing to do with the actual settings.You can't substantiate that even slightly. Lol, its just a little saying. Sometimes I get so frustrated with the ineffectiveness of Faerun's evildoers.
msatran 06-09-07, 01:13 AM	A lot of people are, but that's because you don't see all the behind the scenes stuff that goes on. The Forgotten Realms is a high romance world, and that means that you have to have a good chunk of evil be ineffective. This is a world about RELATIONSHIPS. And unfortunately, that means that if you like Evil, or if you like big cosmic battles, all of this stuff is always going to be secondary to the relationships that come out of it. Which is why I don't like the "War comes to the Forgotten Realms" everywhere at once theme that seems to have been burgeoning lately.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 09:15 AM	A lot of people are, but that's because you don't see all the behind the scenes stuff that goes on. The Forgotten Realms is a high romance world, and that means that you have to have a good chunk of evil be ineffective. This is a world about RELATIONSHIPS. And unfortunately, that means that if you like Evil, or if you like big cosmic battles, all of this stuff is always going to be secondary to the relationships that come out of it. Which is why I don't like the "War comes to the Forgotten Realms" everywhere at once theme that seems to have been burgeoning lately. Oh I love relationships, and I am into the most romantic D&D setting of them all, Dragonlance. But even in DL, evil is not portrayed as ineffective and useless. Yes it fails, but it just as often succeeds. Evildoers like Mina, the minotaurs, the Knights of Neraka, and evil clergies often hold their own against the forces of good and are shown to be intelligent, clever, diabolical, and complex at the same time. What I think Realms villains lack is that spark of genius and intuition that tells them when to stop using the same old hidebound evil schemes and start thinking and corrupting outside the box.
Faraer 06-09-07, 03:09 PM	Whereas, what effectiveness or sparks of genius can you attribute to, say, Oerth's wicked clerics? In both worlds, the vast majority of such scheming isn't known to us, and is rightly the DM's job to provide. On the other hand, because so much more has been published for the Realms, we have a great many more examples of exactly what you feel (for whatever reason) to be lacking.
msatran 06-09-07, 04:12 PM	Yeah, a lot of villainy is the DM's job to provide. My most villainous moment as a DM in D+D was actually this: PC: You mean these doppelgangers were working behind the scenes to raise us to be powerful, so that they could eat our brains and destroy their Phaerimm masters? Me: Yeah. Congratulations. You're 22nd level and your entire life has been manipulated to be someone else's lunch. Roll Initiative.
GothicDan 06-09-07, 05:03 PM	Oh I love relationships, and I am into the most romantic D&D setting of them all, Dragonlance. But even in DL, evil is not portrayed as ineffective and useless. Yes it fails, but it just as often succeeds. Evildoers like Mina, the minotaurs, the Knights of Neraka, and evil clergies often hold their own against the forces of good and are shown to be intelligent, clever, diabolical, and complex at the same time. And in the end, they fail, just like in the vast majority of published fantasy settings and literature. The difference is, that the spotlight is on these villains almost exclusively, through novels. It makes it seem like they're more important. And DL is a 'small' world, meaning that there's very few higher level NPCs around (largely due to it being developed with special rules in 1E, where the gods kicked you out if you got too powerful). So that means higher level evils seem more 'romantic.' It's incredibly contrived, but a good read. I mean, people complain about Mystra. How would they like it if any time one of their PCs hit 20th level, the GODS REMOVED THEM?
XHereticX 06-09-07, 05:18 PM	And in the end, they fail, just like in the vast majority of published fantasy settings and literature. The difference is, that the spotlight is on these villains almost exclusively, through novels. It makes it seem like they're more important. And DL is a 'small' world, meaning that there's very few higher level NPCs around (largely due to it being developed with special rules in 1E, where the gods kicked you out if you got too powerful). So that means higher level evils seem more 'romantic.' It's incredibly realistic, but a good read. I mean, people complain about Mystra. How would they like it if any time one of their PCs hit 20th level, the GODS REMOVED THEM? uhh, it would be painful?:D
msatran 06-09-07, 11:36 PM	Heh. "We're sorry. You must craft magic items for lower level PC's...OR DIE!"
DrowBattlemind 06-17-07, 05:52 PM	To all of the folks crying about "Not enough FR-specific stuff in DotU", at the risk of being labeled a troll, I say unto thee: QUIT YOUR WHINING! You've had not just one, but DOZENS of products defining the dark elves in FR; other than ONE article in Dragon magazine, you had an ENTIRE "Year of the Drow" for pete's sake! Drow of the Underdark (2nd ed AD&D) Menzoberranzan Boxed Set Demihumans of the Realms Complete Book of Elves Monster Mythology (Drow pantheon) Forgotten realms Boxed Set Forgotten Realms 3.0 campaign book Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark Players Guide to Faerun Races of Faerun City of the Spider Queen Shadowdale (included a brief work-up on the Drow city under the Twisted Tower) Underdark and on it goes! Virtually every single FR product has at least 1 drow in them, if not a work-up on a new drow city, spells, magic items, etc! To complain that any non-Realms specific D&D product has too much Greyhawk-oriented content is ridiculous, and missing the point! The Realms are NOT the base world setting for D&D anymore, it reverted back to Greyhawk with 3.0, and has stayed there (not that you could tell with all of the FR and Eberron stuff published...) Lest ye all forget, Drow PC's did NOT start with Drizzt Do'Urden and 2nd edition, it started with 1st edition, in the Unearthed Arcana book, pages 10-12, where the Drow got a longer, bigger write-up than any other sub-race presented in that book. Geeze! :rant:
XHereticX 06-17-07, 05:53 PM	Thank you, that was exactly what I tried to say all this time;)
Straploknight 06-17-07, 06:09 PM	Bah, you sniviling thieves stole the title from one of our most treasured resources and then slapped the FR faithful in the face by denouncing the pantheon to which the FR drow follow. A travesty and insult of the highest order I say, one that should be answered with harsh words, readied spells and bared steel! :P
XHereticX 06-17-07, 06:11 PM	Bah, you sniviling thieves stole the title from one of our most treasured resources and then slapped the FR faithful in the face by denouncing the pantheon to which the FR drow follow. A travesty and insult of the highest order I say, one that should be answered with harsh words, readied spells and bared steel! :P You sound like a religious fanatic with those words:D Well, you would be perfect as a soldier of the Hands of Karsus...
Straploknight 06-17-07, 06:16 PM	fanatic is such a harsh word, I would describe myself as passionate.
MerrikCale 06-17-07, 09:24 PM	fanatic is such a harsh word, I would describe myself as passionate. thats the same
msatran 06-17-07, 10:44 PM	Actually, I consider the idea that it's "our" sourcebook to be a load of melarky. However, I DO think that casually adding "In the Realms" in a few more places, or "In Eberron" in a few more places might have been helpful. In EBERRON, DROW LIVE IN THE FRICKING JUNGLE! They screwed THOSE people even harder than they screwed us! That's why this sourcebook is rotten. It's not that they just kicked FR in the teeth, they smacked Eberron like a redheaded stepchild and made her whine like a ***** at a freemasons meeting.
MerrikCale 06-17-07, 11:02 PM	they smacked Eberron like a redheaded stepchild and made her whine like a ***** at a freemasons meeting. good. maybe we'll get some sourcebooks now, the upstart bastards
msatran 06-17-07, 11:18 PM	I think you're missing the point. Doing bad to someone AND worse to someone else isn't half as wrong, it's twice as wrong.
Zandilar 06-18-07, 08:58 AM	Heya, I think you're missing the point. Doing bad to someone AND worse to someone else isn't half as wrong, it's twice as wrong. I think it's arguable that Eberron Drow are even, well, Drow at all... About the only thing they share in common with the Drow of other places is appearance. But I don't honestly mean to say that Eberron wasn't ripped off by that travesty of a book. They were. Worse than the Forgotten Realms, even. Maybe they need to release a book called "The Drow of Xen'drik"?
Shiftkitty 06-18-07, 03:44 PM	Just for my two cps, my husband surprised me with the 3e Drow of the Underdark yesterday and I like it. Nice and meaty and it went into play immediately. One question posed in the book that we've decided to kick around is whether or not the evilness is a product of nature or nurture. Our wizard is convinced it's environmental while the fighter and ranger feel that a leopard can't change its spots. Their plan is to kidnap a drow infant, one that's most likely not going to live very long, and give him a chance in a different environment. If they're daring, they'll try for a 3d born. Sort of a version of "My Fair Lady".
Zanan 06-18-07, 05:13 PM	I think you're missing the point. Doing bad to someone AND worse to someone else isn't half as wrong, it's twice as wrong. Well put! Essentually, it seems that Expedition to Undermountain shows how it could have been done. In EBERRON, DROW LIVE IN THE FRICKING JUNGLE! They screwed THOSE people even harder than they screwed us! That's why this sourcebook is rotten. It's not that they just kicked FR in the teeth, they smacked Eberron like a redheaded stepchild and made her whine like a ***** at a freemasons meeting. Well, freedom of speech does not extend to such kind of ranting, I would assume. So do count to 10 before the next post ;) As for the redhead, what's the point here? It could be Welsh and freemasons hardly have a problem with redheads, have they not?
XHereticX 06-18-07, 06:47 PM	Actually, I consider the idea that it's "our" sourcebook to be a load of melarky. However, I DO think that casually adding "In the Realms" in a few more places, or "In Eberron" in a few more places might have been helpful. In EBERRON, DROW LIVE IN THE FRICKING JUNGLE! They screwed THOSE people even harder than they screwed us! That's why this sourcebook is rotten. It's not that they just kicked FR in the teeth, they smacked Eberron like a redheaded stepchild and made her whine like a ***** at a freemasons meeting. That, I agree with. Though I have no sympathy for Eberron.
DrowBattlemind 06-20-07, 04:52 PM	I think it's arguable that Eberron Drow are even, well, Drow at all... About the only thing they share in common with the Drow of other places is appearance. But I don't honestly mean to say that Eberron wasn't ripped off by that travesty of a book. They were. Worse than the Forgotten Realms, even. Maybe they need to release a book called "The Drow of Xen'drik"? Perhaps, and I would be intrigued by such a book, however, it can be counter-argued that between Races of Eberron and Secrets of Xendrik, they have such a book, albeit in two parts.
Alediran 06-21-07, 02:15 PM	Bah, you sniviling thieves stole the title from one of our most treasured resources and then slapped the FR faithful in the face by denouncing the pantheon to which the FR drow follow. A travesty and insult of the highest order I say, one that should be answered with harsh words, readied spells and bared steel! :P Don't forget a couple Myriad spells of High Magic to wash them in giant tsunamis.
DrowBattlemind 06-21-07, 07:21 PM	oh, please, y'all stole the Drow, not us. We Greyhawkians had them first! You sound like a bunch of Romans kvetching about the Greeks and their Heracles, all the while taking the same deity and renaming him 'Hercules'....
XHereticX 06-21-07, 08:04 PM	oh, please, y'all stole the Drow, not us. We Greyhawkians had them first! You sound like a bunch of Romans kvetching about the Greeks and their Heracles, all the while taking the same deity and renaming him 'Hercules'.... Yep, the Romans expanded on the works of the Greeks and became bigger and better. Just like FR expanded upon the works of GH and became bigger and better. Just hope that history dosen't repeat itself again, or we will be seeing Eberron for a very, very long time...
GothicDan 06-21-07, 08:17 PM	I wouldn't be so sure about calling the Romans "better." And I'm a Latin Classics Minor....
MarkusTay63 06-21-07, 08:31 PM	You guys just keep rehashing what we figured out way back on page one or two - the book is useless to everybody! At least they treated all fans EQUALLY bad this time. I did hear some guy in Kentucky with a really weird homebrew campaign found a couple of parts useful. :rolleyes: As for the redhead, what's the point here? It could be Welsh and freemasons hardly have a problem with redheads, have they not?It gets lost in translation. It is a common saying here in the States - when something is treated poorly it is being treated "like a red-headed step-child". Not that beating kids, even step-kids, is looked upon favorably in America... but if a child has red-hair then it is 'understandable'. And if he/she has freckles, its expected! :eek: Ron Weasly wouldn't last two minutes here. :D
XHereticX 06-21-07, 08:31 PM	I wouldn't be so sure about calling the Romans "better." And I'm a Latin Classics Minor.... Nonono, I like the Greeks a lot better in reality. gee, coudn't you see that I was trying to make a smart comment here...
msatran 06-21-07, 10:55 PM	I'll throw a plate into the fire for you then.
Sylvain 06-21-07, 11:09 PM	I don't like that we're being told that the world we play in is wrong either. I just think it's more offensive that they found a way for a character to wield two spiked chains. .... I'm going for option two. Except for the PRC that allows the use of 2 spiked chains. I think I'll be banning that horror. SERIOUSLY!! :thumbsup: :heehee
Dr_Tough 06-21-07, 11:20 PM	Oh I love relationships, and I am into the most romantic D&D setting of them all, Dragonlance. But even in DL, evil is not portrayed as ineffective and useless. Yes it fails, but it just as often succeeds. Evildoers like Mina, the minotaurs, the Knights of Neraka, and evil clergies often hold their own against the forces of good and are shown to be intelligent, clever, diabolical, and complex at the same time. What I think Realms villains lack is that spark of genius and intuition that tells them when to stop using the same old hidebound evil schemes and start thinking and corrupting outside the box. lol Dragonlance. Everyone complaining about the new drow book (like there isn't enough drow **** out already), it could have been worse. It could have been the 3e Dragonlance book. EDIT: Does the 3e DotU book talk about dark elves having purple teeth, because that was seriously the best part of the 2e book.
Sylvain 06-21-07, 11:38 PM	I think it's realistic that drow fear Lolth, even if they worship other deities. She is at the head of the pantheon, and there has to be a little lurking leaking feeling in the backs of their heads knowing or suspecting that just maybe their deity won't be able to protect them from her. I understand the slight feeling of possible alienation though. I decided a little while back that I think the 2nd edition books are more useful, more realistic, and less video-game like. 3.5 editions has (literally) about 3000 feats, 200 core classes, and 700 Prestige Classes at this point. Even for someone as smart as myself, (or I could say as smart as most brainy RP-Gamers), it's just gotten too complicated, like a clunky computer that's "updated" or "patched" itself too many times. How about I just make up what my character is and work the system around that, instead of the other way around? I hear alot of explanations involving marketing and whatnot, which is kind of odd because we are the demographic: if you're not satisfied with the material, what it comes down to is that you don't have to be taken in by it. They'll get the hint, eventually. I still get some of the new books when they come out, but for the most part I stick to finding used 2nd edition material. There's already a ton of source books out there. This is particularly true of Ravenloft and Alternity, not to mention that there are other systems like chaosium's Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, or Warhammer. Just my opinion.
Dr_Tough 06-22-07, 12:13 AM	How about I just make up what my character is and work the system around that, instead of the other way around? The only way a character should be made imo.
DrowBattlemind 06-22-07, 02:10 AM	lDoes the 3e DotU book talk about dark elves having purple teeth, because that was seriously the best part of the 2e book. ???? Don't recall that AT ALL! I DO remember ogres having purple teeth and/or eyes in 1dt Edition, though... You guys just keep rehashing what we figured out way back on page one or two - the book is useless to everybody! At least they treated all fans EQUALLY bad this time. Actually, we're making a lot of use of it in our campaign, right now. AND our DM's running it in the Realms, she's just having the PC she-cleric of Lolth ignore the references that seem to have the rest of y'all up in a tither... like the bit where Lolth is the ONLY goddess of Drow-dom. Although, from Lolth's clergy, that would seem to be primary catechism... (However, I agree, the double-chain wielder was an incredibly insane idea)
Zanan 06-22-07, 03:46 AM	Yep, the Romans expanded on the works of the Greeks and became bigger and better. Just like FR expanded upon the works of GH and became bigger and better. Just hope that history dosen't repeat itself again, or we will be seeing Eberron for a very, very long time... That would mean that Eberron can expand on the works of the FR and that won't happen. For the former is far less sophisticated and lacks a Greenwood, Boyd, Costa, Cunningham, Smedman and all :D
XHereticX 06-22-07, 09:06 AM	That would mean that Eberron can expand on the works of the FR and that won't happen. For the former is far less sophisticated and lacks a Greenwood, Boyd, Costa, Cunningham, Smedman and all :D And you do know that all those people (cept' greenwood of course) would be perfectly capable of being "persuaded" by WoTC to go work on Eberron with the advent of 4th edition right;)
Soltares 06-22-07, 09:58 AM	Yep, the Romans expanded on the works of the Greeks and became bigger and better. Just like FR expanded upon the works of GH and became bigger and better. Just hope that history dosen't repeat itself again, or we will be seeing Eberron for a very, very long time... On the other hand, if history *did* repeat itself, and Eberron became both bigger and *better* than the Realms, then it would only be a good thing. I willingly upgraded from Greyhawk to the Realms (and then grumpily returned to Greyhawk after the Time of Troubles novels ensured that some of the stuff I was using would never again be supported), and if Eberron manages to capture the same sort of wonder that drew me from Greyhawk to Toril in the first place, I'll be just as willing to move into the new world. I'd be a hidebound loyalist grognard-type, but the settings I'm fanatical about (Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur) are currently deader even than Greyhawk, so I'll play in whatever setting they actually support. Setting-h00r, that's me. I go where the action is. What I think Realms villains lack is that spark of genius and intuition that tells them when to stop using the same old hidebound evil schemes and start thinking and corrupting outside the box. The thing is, like many villains, *they aren't allowed to win.* So no matter how overwhelmingly powerful they are, no matter how many *centuries* they've spent on planning, the novel protagonist who was born yesterday and has some weird power never-before-seen or artifact-like special magic item or unique divine relationship, is gonna kick their butts, and probably end up vastly more powerful anyway, making any return engagement be yet more pain and humiliation for the bad-guys. This isn't the latest three Star Wars movies, where the Emperor gets to enact a plan to conquer the galaxy and *watch it succeed.* Thay, in the FRCS, transformed from an evil expansionist magocracy to engaging in the vile horror of setting up enclaves to sell bargain-rate magic items and undercut that one honest merchant in Sembia. Those bastards! Oh noes! Instead of Thay being a threat to Aglarond, suddenly *the Simbul* is being restrained from blowing up Thay! Yeesh, that must be humiliating for Thay. (Don't let the mean lady beat us up! And hey, why didn't anyone step in to stop us? Oh yeah, because *we had no chance of winning,* that's why...) Zhentil Keep ends up on the ground in pieces wondering where it all went wrong more often than Paris Hilton. The people who keep rebuilding that darn keep remind me of the people who live on the beach in Florida, lose their house to a hurricane, and promptly rebuild it in the exact same place, over and over again, like some sort of dreadfully inefficient lemmings. (Hint, walk *into* the sea. Don't wait for it to come to you. It will take decades, if not centuries to kill yourself by waiting for the ocean to make it to your bedroom.) Ultimately, Zhentil Keep is just evolution in action. If they are stupid enough to keep rebuilding on the same place where gods and dragons and invading armies have all smashed them to flinders before, they'll just continue dying, and eventually there won't be anyone left in the Realms stupid enough to build there. (Except maybe Orcs.) The Cult of the Dragon has lost more Dracoliches in the last 10 years than I've lost socks. Sometimes they lose more than one dracolich in a single encounter! (Seriously, you know how much those things *cost?* They need to be more careful with them!) The villains in the Realms pretty much get hosed. I'm going for option two. Except for the PRC that allows the use of 2 spiked chains. I think I'll be banning that horror. Any dual-Spiked Chain PrC that doesn't allow you to dual-wield Oversized Spiked Chains, and throw them up to 60 ft. and have them return to your hand as a Free Action, isn't good enough. The level 5 capstone ability needs to be the ability to spin a Spiked Chain and leave it floating and spinning in midair as a Blade Barrier spell. Non-magically, of course. It's all in the wrist.
Shiftkitty 06-22-07, 11:53 AM	Question, because I've seen this come up throughout the board and because I lived in a horrifically bad neighborhood when I was a teenager, why do so many think it's impossible to use two chains in a fight? I've done it, albeit not with very long chains (about 3'-4'), and as long as you have a good weight on the end, like a padlock, they're quite effective. To use them like a whip, I don't think so. That's begging for trouble when it comes snapping back at you. But as a highly flexible bludgeoning weapon your only drawback is if the thing gets wrapped around your opponent's arm and he or she thinks to grab it and give a good yank. As a tripping device, it's only recommended if you have a really close-range weapon in your other hand. Otherwise your second chain's length becomes almost useless, being ungainly in close-quarters. Has anyone else here been in a RW fight that involved improvised weapons? (Oddly enough, a make-believe world where you get paid to kill things was my escape from a world where they'd do it for free.)
Soltares 06-22-07, 01:47 PM	Question, because I've seen this come up throughout the board and because I lived in a horrifically bad neighborhood when I was a teenager, why do so many think it's impossible to use two chains in a fight? Lots of things are possible in the real world, but don't necessarily make sense to be recommended as viable tactics. I grew up raising big cats for an animal park, and wrestled bare-handed a full-grown and rabid mountain lion, as well as other big cats, during other moments of stupidity. But I've noticed that while it is *possible* to defeat a big cat in hand to hand combat, with a lot of luck (and far too few brains), it doesn't seem to be anything that the Roman / Greek / Chinese / Japanese / Persian / etc. armies recommended as a standard practice. Swinging even one chain, let alone two of them, in a fight against someone who has a broadsword is just plain useless, which is why the Gengis Khan, Alexander, Trajan, etc. did not conquer the known world with great units of chain-fighters. The only people who historically made use of chains in combat were Japanese peasants who were forbidden from owning actual weapons, and were forced to use farm implements and tools to try and fend off aggressors (aggressors who far too commonly were their sword-wielding rulers, who regularly slaughtered said peasants when they expressed disatisfaction with the unfairness of the guys with swords having all the good stuff).
Shiftkitty 06-22-07, 03:20 PM	Okay. I see your point about the broadswords, etc. I was mostly up against large knives (some as long as a bayonet but certainly not swords), pipes, bats, car antennae (which can be a lot like a rapier), etc. That's cool about the big cats. I'll have to pm you about something totally unrealted to RPGs, but is a myth about Ethan Allen, of the American Revolution, just to see if it would be possible. Do you bother with pm's? (I know some people who refuse to deal with them.)
XHereticX 06-22-07, 03:27 PM	Okay. I see your point about the broadswords, etc. I was mostly up against large knives (some as long as a bayonet but certainly not swords), pipes, bats, car antennae (which can be a lot like a rapier), etc. That's cool about the big cats. I'll have to pm you about something totally unrealted to RPGs, but is a myth about Ethan Allen, of the American Revolution, just to see if it would be possible. Do you bother with pm's? (I know some people who refuse to deal with them.) U were a gangsta?
msatran 06-22-07, 03:29 PM	Villains aren't allowed to win? Sothelissan Empire? Yoo-hoo? My players have taken on the task of taking it down with a new group of characters, but it's going to be interesting to see if a small group of heroes can take on the empire of the Ogre Magi and win. The last session was kind of funny. They encountered their first Ogre Mage. A PC locked himself in a room with it.
Shiftkitty 06-22-07, 04:23 PM	U were a gangsta? No, and I think that was the source of my trouble. It was like going to school at a state penitentiary. They (my so-called classmates) told me that I would have to join a gang to survive. I told them to prove it. I think I was born with a chip like that on my shoulder (others might call it a "big mouth"...). This was the 70's and 80's, before guns became fashionable at school, or I might not be here! I never did join a gang, unless you count the people at my game table, but they had the advantage of coming from better neighborhoods. We'd meet at a hobby store and that was my escape for a couple of hours. I wouldn't do it again for a million dollars, but I wouldn't take a million dollars for the experience. Oh, wait. I probably would.:D
Sylvain 06-22-07, 09:49 PM	Question, because I've seen this come up throughout the board and because I lived in a horrifically bad neighborhood when I was a teenager, why do so many think it's impossible to use two chains in a fight? The "spiked chain" weapon in D&D weighs about 10 pounds, and has a reach of like, 10 feet, and is just basically, generally considered "cheap" or "munchkinesque" or "overpowered" or something. It does 2d4 points of damage and (unless I'm wrong) since the character using it threatens a 10 foot radius, and can also attack opponents within 5 feet, anyone who approaches such a character provokes an attack of opportunity, meaning that he/she will be striking first and making more attacks. Allowing someone to effectively wield two of these is kind of... fun but kooky. The reaction is due more to the way the rules are than with whether or not it's realistic. I usually say that anything that's possible (or imaginable) should be able to be attempted in the game.
Shiftkitty 06-23-07, 01:23 PM	Yeah, that would be a pretty long and ungainly thing. I'll keep the damage rating, but shorten the range. Like I said, I never swung one longer than about 4', and that was probably the max I'd feel comfortable with. I haven't had anybody in the game use one yet, but I suppose we'll have to discuss alterations. I'm perfectly willing to suspend reality to a degree for the sake of the game, but I guess when something hits close to home, I'm a little too anchored. Thanks, guys!
MerrikCale 06-24-07, 08:10 AM	Yeah, that would be a pretty long and ungainly thing. hee hee hee heh hee
Zanan 06-24-07, 10:18 AM	Simply sub the spiked chain with the chain-and-dagger of the Arms & Equipment Guide. Can't understand the designers obsession (;) ) with drow and spiked chains of two-bladed swords. While very flair-ladden indeed, drow tend to fight in restricted areas and could hardly use such weapons effectively, even with Weapon Finesse (which is good for aiming, but the size will remain large).
Shiftkitty 06-24-07, 11:09 AM	MerrikCale! I'm shocked at you!:embarrass :blush: :rofl:
Zémobiel 06-25-07, 04:43 AM	"Elves revere Corellon Larethian above all others, but their religion is replete with other deities that are nearly as important. But for the drow, there is only Lolth. This comes as a surprise to many scholars, who believe the drow pantheon to consist of multiple deities. This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. But these deities, no matter how strongly an individual drow might revere them, are secondary at best, barely visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen. [This next statement is my favorite part of this paragraph, since it contradicts the previous sentence!] The drow honor them, but they do not consider them true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion - or fear them half as deeply - as they do Lolth. It is she and she alone who stands at the heart of drow religion." That's a pretty belittling paragraph in my opinion to the FR Drow pantheon. Even if its presaging events in the future that will make FR's Drow into GH's Drow (and I won't post spoilers here), its hard to even remotely imagine the person that wrote that paragraph is familiar with Eilistraee or Kiaransalee as they stand right now, much less the history of the Drow pantheon in Faerun. Personnaly i think that the meanig of this is more that every drow fear Lolth. Lolth is a part of their every religion. Kiaranshalee want to destroy Lolth so as for Vaheruan, Eilistrae want to atone her crime that Lolth made her comite and saved the drow of her influence, selverath (or what ever her name) live to save Lolth, and Gaunador... euh him i dont know. But every drow have a fear of Lolth that make her more present in her life than any gods
Zanan 06-25-07, 06:45 AM	At this moment and time, Kiaransalee is probably more intent in keeping Orcus out of the Realms, after he reclaimed his Abyssal realm. She will do everything in her newly gained power (she ascended to lesser power because of the Silence of Lolth) to keep her station and make sure nothing Orcus'ish rises anew in her prime region of the Realms, Vaasa and North Damara. Thus, she is hardly in a position nor - I'd guess - willing to challenge Lolth for her throne in the forseeable future. Obviously, after Lady Penitent I, one has to fear whether the Revenancer has a future at all, given the rapid decline in drow deity numbers recently. T'would be a travesty if she's for the off as well, but we'll only know in August, methinks.
Darakhoranon 06-25-07, 07:32 AM	But if Kiaransalee is kicked out ("into the orcus" might lead to misunderstandings...), YOU can take over, Zanan!:D I might be even convinced to help you...:schemes: Seriously, do we NEED several dozen gods for every race/subrace/region/domain/...? After all, some, like you, Zanan, want several drow gods, others will almost certainly say something like "Finally! Someone at WotC saw reason and started culling useless gods!"...
XHereticX 06-25-07, 08:49 AM	But if Kiaransalee is kicked out ("into the orcus" might lead to misunderstandings...), YOU can take over, Zanan!:D I might be even convinced to help you...:schemes: Seriously, do we NEED several dozen gods for every race/subrace/region/domain/...? After all, some, like you, Zanan, want several drow gods, others will almost certainly say something like "Finally! Someone at WotC saw reason and started culling useless gods!"... Ahh, the multiple gods is what makes FR so fun to explore. Its even more fun when some of them die:P
Zanan 06-25-07, 09:19 AM	But if Kiaransalee is kicked out ("into the orcus" might lead to misunderstandings...), YOU can take over, Zanan!:D I might be even convinced to help you...:schemes: Seriously, do we NEED several dozen gods for every race/subrace/region/domain/...? After all, some, like you, Zanan, want several drow gods, others will almost certainly say something like "Finally! Someone at WotC saw reason and started culling useless gods!"... Fair enough. And one may even have a point saying that a volatile pantheon like the drow's was beckoning for somesuch, but ... we have 150odd HUMAN deities to start with, for every corner et al of the Realms, twice as many dwarven and elven deities than drow ones, giant and dragon excluded ... why start with the drow? Lolth has/d Selvetarm under her sway, Kiaransalee and Ghaunadaur are subserviant enough. While themtwo do not enjoy the lack of freedom they have, they are not actually held back or something. Vhaeraun ... well, he's a scheeming little do-no-good with just one plan, kill mum. We all have our problems. Eilistraee ... well, she does not like her race chafing under Lolth but is she a going to be a / the guiding deity for the race? In case of the human deities, not even those killed during the ToT remained dead or weren't replaced, so we still have dozens of deities hanging about - about 3/4 of which usually unused by players, DMs and designers alike. Of course, drow have a certainy drawing power - in many respects. All in all, the pantheon looked "good", only lacked a (chaotic) neutral deity or less "chaotic evil" to "care" for those not too evil yet not really good folk (especially PC), someone like Zinzerena. Reading the headers for Lady Penitent III and something like the "dark elves of Faerűn now have finally to chose between ... Eilistraee and Lolth" ... I start begging for mercy already. Obviously, if it all goes down the ... there are enough interesting archdevils or abyssal lords (bar Orcus) to choose from.
XHereticX 06-25-07, 09:25 AM	Bah, once Kia is dead Orcus will have his cult alive and kickin'
Zanan 06-25-07, 10:21 AM	Bah, once Kia is dead Orcus will have his cult alive and kickin' Once Kia is dead, Lolth will take a look into that issue and Orcus will be running like hell ... :D Problem is, Kiaransalee is already dead! :cool:
XHereticX 06-25-07, 10:40 AM	Once Kia is dead, Lolth will take a look into that issue and Orcus will be running like hell ... :D Problem is, Kiaransalee is already dead! :cool: Bah, my favorite fatso runs from no spider *****. He will wank her with his almighty scepter of doom:D Kia is dead? well, she might as well be...
Lord Karsus 06-25-07, 11:24 AM	Thus, she is hardly in a position nor - I'd guess - willing to challenge Lolth for her throne in the forseeable future. -It was mentioned- Faiths and Pantheons, I believe- that since Orcus has returned, Kiaransalee is trying to rub elbows with Lolth a little more, asking for her protection. Seriously, do we NEED several dozen gods for every race/subrace/region/domain/...? -Yes, yes we do. Kia is dead? well, she might as well be... -Undead, technically.
Danflor 06-25-07, 11:34 AM	I'm a core/homebrew DM, so this is my first visit to the FR boards. Why do you need to follow what some obscure book says? What do you do if they kill someone like Khelben in a novel, but he is a major part of your campaign? Does he suddenly die, or do you work around the novel?
Lord Karsus 06-25-07, 11:41 AM	Why do you need to follow what some obscure book says? -Because the events in novels are canon. By sticking close to canon, it allows you to use sourcebooks/novels/plothooks/whatever to maximum effect in future campaigns. Departing drastically from the canon subtracts from the amount of "usefulness" these things are to you.
XHereticX 06-25-07, 11:42 AM	I'm a core/homebrew DM, so this is my first visit to the FR boards. Why do you need to follow what some obscure book says? What do you do if they kill someone like Khelben in a novel, but he is a major part of your campaign? Does he suddenly die, or do you work around the novel? Hiya Dan:D Its me, so you are on the FR boards now huh? Be nice Karsus, he is my friend, as in real-life friend.
Lord Karsus 06-25-07, 11:45 AM	Be nice Karsus, he is my friend, as in real-life friend. -I am. I simply answered his query.
XHereticX 06-25-07, 11:49 AM	so Karsus, would you mind filling Danflor in on a few FR tidbits? Since I am going to run a FR campaign after his homebrew and he might need some foresight into the extremely vast world he will be adventuring in. And since I am too busy reading anime fanfics right now, can you do that or at least give some links, plz???
Danflor 06-25-07, 11:52 AM	I would appreciate it if you not use my name (even if it is grossly mis-spelled) ;)
XHereticX 06-25-07, 11:52 AM	I would appreciate it if you not use my name (even if it is grossly mis-spelled) ;) lol, ok, srry.
Dr_Tough 06-25-07, 12:25 PM	I'm a core/homebrew DM, so this is my first visit to the FR boards. Why do you need to follow what some obscure book says? What do you do if they kill someone like Khelben in a novel, but he is a major part of your campaign? Does he suddenly die, or do you work around the novel? Well, I've thrown out half the **** that is supposedly canon. My games are practically stuck in 1367 DR. I mean, I'll be damned if WotC wants to kill an NPC or city that I like.
Lord Karsus 06-25-07, 02:04 PM	so Karsus, would you mind filling Danflor in on a few FR tidbits? -Uh...I don't know. Ask, and ye shall recieve.
Zanan 06-25-07, 04:26 PM	Bah, my favorite fatso runs from no spider *****. He will wank her with his almighty scepter of doom:D Kia is dead? well, she might as well be... His what? I guess you haven't seen that item's stats, have you? Kia's undead, of course ... and nowadays Orcus poses no physical threat her anyways.
XHereticX 06-25-07, 06:32 PM	His what? I guess you haven't seen that item's stats, have you? Kia's undead, of course ... and nowadays Orcus poses no physical threat her anyways. Or unalive, as you could also call her. Dosen't mean shes dead though.:P I own both books which have the scepter's stats, and I have to say in the right hands it would certainly be able to douse Lolth's arachnid ass. If not, at least Orcus still pwns based on sheer awesomeness.
DrowBattlemind 06-25-07, 08:59 PM	Yeah, Orcus does indeed rock... although, once he gets done being P.O.'ed at her for killing him (as well as erasing his very name from all historical texts and stealing his portfolio), he may just send her a thank you note. After all, Orcus was incredibly bloated and fat before she bushwacked him, now he's all buffed up and back in his prime again.
Zanan 06-26-07, 04:18 AM	Lolth has no arachnid backside ... in the Realms ... just in case you didn't know. She may want to look like having one. Problem with the wand ... he is not in the right hands. And against Kia or Lolth or even one of their aspects, it is just a nice toy. But let's get back to the topic, shall we not?
Lord Karsus 06-26-07, 09:29 AM	Lolth has no arachnid backside ... in the Realms ... just in case you didn't know. She may want to look like having one. -Two out of her three forms (Not including her change in the War of the Spider Queen) were arachnid. Of course, being a deity and all, all Lolth really is is a haze of divine energy, or something to that effect.
Zémobiel 06-26-07, 11:01 AM	-Two out of her three forms (Not including her change in the War of the Spider Queen) were arachnid. Of course, being a deity and all, all Lolth really is is a haze of divine energy, or something to that effect. Exactly. Lolth have many form and some of them are Arachnid but she is pure energy like all deities, in fact she can take the form she want
Shiftkitty 06-26-07, 03:06 PM	RE: Whether or not the novels are canon I've seen it here somewhere that the novels are NOT canon. I've never treated them as such, although I do use them for inspiration. As far as what is and isn't canon, I wonder how many of us have been playing longer than WotC has even been around? I started in 1981, so I'm pretty sure I've been gaming longer than quite a few of their staff have been employed by them (and probably longer than some of their staff has been alive...:eek: ). At this point, it's MY game, I'LL decide what's canon.
Zanan 06-26-07, 06:27 PM	-Two out of her three forms (Not including her change in the War of the Spider Queen) were arachnid. Of course, being a deity and all, all Lolth really is is a haze of divine energy, or something to that effect. Her true form always was and is that of a drow female. Her liking to spiders (see my sig) has been taken up by the designers and authors though and thus planted a vision in the readers' minds that she actually is a spidery being. Not that I need to tell you that. :cool:
XHereticX 06-26-07, 08:16 PM	Lolth has no arachnid backside ... in the Realms ... just in case you didn't know. She may want to look like having one. Problem with the wand ... he is not in the right hands. And against Kia or Lolth or even one of their aspects, it is just a nice toy. But let's get back to the topic, shall we not? Don't mind me. In archfiend vs god arguments, I have always been hopelessly biased for the archfiends. Yeah, I get the whole form thing. Though I just assumed in battle Lolth would prefer looking like Spiderzilla rather than a naked drow hoe. Unless Orcus is horny for drow women...
Zémobiel 06-26-07, 09:19 PM	RE: Whether or not the novels are canon I've seen it here somewhere that the novels are NOT canon. I've never treated them as such, although I do use them for inspiration. As far as what is and isn't canon, I wonder how many of us have been playing longer than WotC has even been around? I started in 1981, so I'm pretty sure I've been gaming longer than quite a few of their staff have been employed by them (and probably longer than some of their staff has been alive...:eek: ). At this point, it's MY game, I'LL decide what's canon. In fact they are canon... just see the number of reference they made on them in the campaing setting. It's Ravenloft who have non-canon novels Her true form always was and is that of a drow female. Her liking to spiders (see my sig) has been taken up by the designers and authors though and thus planted a vision in the readers' minds that she actually is a spidery being. Not that I need to tell you that. :cool: Thats not new her spider form, she had in the complate manual of the elf of the second edition
Faraer 06-26-07, 09:29 PM	I've seen it here somewhere that the novels are NOT canon.They are and always have been, and no one at or writing for TSR or Wizards has ever said otherwise.
Shiftkitty 06-26-07, 09:31 PM	I could have sworn I've seen it somewhere on the Wizards site. Hmm.... curious. Oh well. If they want to send those Alltel guys around in a van to kidnap my dog or pinch me, let 'em. Just don't do the wood screws and sock thing. That'd hurt. Anyway, after all these years, my game universe has gone somewhat differently, and I haven't read all of the novels. So nyahhhhh.:P
Faraer 06-26-07, 09:34 PM	Nyahhhhh back. I'm the guy who'd prefer there was no ongoing timeline at all (or a much slower and less sensational one).
Shiftkitty 06-26-07, 09:42 PM	LOL! Yeah, the first thing I do when I buy a new sourcebook is ask "Okay, what stays and what goes?" Of course, my husband and I modify our vehicles a lot and ask the same thing when we tear into an engine... How are you supposed to run a really dynamic game if you have to be careful not to upset something that might be affected by the imagination of an author later down the road?
XHereticX 06-26-07, 09:47 PM	LOL! Yeah, the first thing I do when I buy a new sourcebook is ask "Okay, what stays and what goes?" Of course, my husband and I modify our vehicles a lot and ask the same thing when we tear into an engine... How are you supposed to run a really dynamic game if you have to be careful not to upset something that might be affected by the imagination of an author later down the road? Unfortunatly, when it comes to the Realms, I'm such a person like that. Unable to deviate from canon:(
Dr_Tough 06-26-07, 09:59 PM	Her true form always was and is that of a drow female. Her liking to spiders (see my sig) has been taken up by the designers and authors though and thus planted a vision in the readers' minds that she actually is a spidery being. Not that I need to tell you that. :cool: I've always been led to believe that when her ass got curb stomped down into the Abyss she was cursed with the demonic form of spider person. Of course I can't remember what book it was in...
Shiftkitty 06-26-07, 10:12 PM	Unfortunatly, when it comes to the Realms, I'm such a person like that. Unable to deviate from canon:( What do you do if your party is dealing with a major NPC and your campaign is based on using this same guy a little later down the road and somebody offs him in a novel? I suppose you could hastily rewrite your campaign. After all, people die with unfinished projects all the time. Still, I think it kind of takes away from the concept of it being 'your' game. I do browse the novels as well as fanfiction sites for inspiration, however. A site called "Lavender Eyes" is one I'm crawling through right now. So far I've read one piece where Drizzt gets killed by Dantrag. I still like Drizzt, so I wouldn't kill him off in my game, but I do like the resurrection of Dantrag.
XHereticX 06-26-07, 10:15 PM	nonono, I don't directly replay books, I just try to keep my "modern" campaigns up to date with canon unless I'm gonna run a time-travel campaign.
Zémobiel 06-27-07, 09:55 AM	What do you do if your party is dealing with a major NPC and your campaign is based on using this same guy a little later down the road and somebody offs him in a novel? I suppose you could hastily rewrite your campaign. After all, people die with unfinished projects all the time. Still, I think it kind of takes away from the concept of it being 'your' game. I do browse the novels as well as fanfiction sites for inspiration, however. A site called "Lavender Eyes" is one I'm crawling through right now. So far I've read one piece where Drizzt gets killed by Dantrag. I still like Drizzt, so I wouldn't kill him off in my game, but I do like the resurrection of Dantrag. Your not forced to follow the canon too. The number of time that our campaing have ruined some city that in the novels was never destroyed...
Alediran 06-27-07, 11:03 AM	What do you do if your party is dealing with a major NPC and your campaign is based on using this same guy a little later down the road and somebody offs him in a novel? I suppose you could hastily rewrite your campaign. After all, people die with unfinished projects all the time. Still, I think it kind of takes away from the concept of it being 'your' game. I do browse the novels as well as fanfiction sites for inspiration, however. A site called "Lavender Eyes" is one I'm crawling through right now. So far I've read one piece where Drizzt gets killed by Dantrag. I still like Drizzt, so I wouldn't kill him off in my game, but I do like the resurrection of Dantrag. That is why I started my campaign in 1372 DR (two years before actual time) so it gives me time to adjust things in my campaign if an element is altered by novels or sourcebooks, that gives me the possibility of using the latest novels without screwing my campaign. I'm so used to this that I can DM a campaign that allows players to be part of big changes, without actually diverging far from cannon.
msatran 06-27-07, 01:57 PM	Orcus changed his appearance so he wasn't bloated anymore? Oh, for god's sake. Is NOTHING sacred to these people? Orcus is a big fat bloated shmuck with a skull wand, and he will STAY a big fat bloated shmuck with a skull wand.
DrowBattlemind 06-27-07, 02:06 PM	Check out the painting in his entry in the Book of Vile Darkness.
Shiftkitty 06-27-07, 03:32 PM	Orcus in the BoVD. He's totally ripped. Looks more fearsome and less like a diabolical frat boy. Re: Keeping your campaign a little back in time, cool. I see the advantage, but don't you have to read every novel to keep things straight? Doesn't that get a little expensive and time-consuming?
Zanan 06-27-07, 06:17 PM	Can't help it, but of all the demons and devils presented in the BoVD, Orcus is only beaten in ugliness by the hag countess, Juiblex, and that slug-chap. Never understood the obsession people have with Old Goatie. :rolleyes:
XHereticX 06-27-07, 06:22 PM	Can't help it, but of all the demons and devils presented in the BoVD, Orcus is only beaten in ugliness by the hag countess, Juiblex, and that slug-chap. Never understood the obsession people have with Old Goatie. :rolleyes: Never understood the obsession SOME people have with drow, unless a very sexy female one is in your bed...;)
Fanatic66 06-27-07, 08:10 PM	Never understood the obsession SOME people have with drow, unless a very sexy female one is in your bed...;) :D I know what you mean.
GothicDan 06-27-07, 10:36 PM	Looks more fearsome and less like a diabolical frat boy. Excuse you!
Shiftkitty 06-27-07, 11:00 PM	Come on! Look at the gut on this guy! He's not looking for souls to drag into eternal damnation. He's looking for a kegger! http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1464/orcus1iy1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
msatran 06-28-07, 02:16 AM	Uh, he's bloated and fat because he has this thing in his hand called the WAND OF ORCUS! Who needs to be physically fit when you have Tap and Kill?
Zanan 06-28-07, 04:15 AM	Right folks ... Orcus et al are fine and well, but given his importance he surely needs another thread to be discussed, not one related to a certain book. So off with the bloated goathead and his worshippers, if you please.
Shiftkitty 06-28-07, 09:30 AM	Okaaayyyyyy, we're sorryyyyyyyyy:bigeyes: But I gotta get one more shot in... Huh-huh...he's holding his wand...:D
DrowBattlemind 06-28-07, 01:53 PM	Awww, iblith. Okay, if we have to.... :raincloud
XHereticX 06-28-07, 06:54 PM	Right folks ... Orcus et al are fine and well, but given his importance he surely needs another thread to be discussed, not one related to a certain book. So off with the bloated goathead and his worshippers, if you please. Nah, I worship the King of Hell, not Orcus. I just respect the fatso, thats all. Hai, hai, I'll get back to the drow.:rolleyes:
Shiftkitty 06-28-07, 09:09 PM	I think it was in DotU that I read that drow cities (the larger ones at least) will generally ignore surface elf visitors as long as they stick to their business in town and don't violate any laws, liquid as they may be. It said right afterwards that surface elves do not extend this same courtesy to drow they meet on the surface. I'll have to go back and make sure I read it right (or that I've got the right source). Does this imply that the surface elves are more bigoted or racist than the drow? Or that the drow willing to put their religious fundamentalism on hold as long as the "infidels" have money or, at the very least, aren't forcing the drow to expend any of their resources on them?
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 09:49 PM	I think it was in DotU that I read that drow cities (the larger ones at least) will generally ignore surface elf visitors as long as they stick to their business in town and don't violate any laws, liquid as they may be. -For some reason, I really doubt that. Firstly, the Starlight and Shadows Trilogy makes it clear that "Faerie Elves" are not at all common in Menzoberranzan, a Drow metropolis. Liriel, before meeting Xzorsh, had never before met a Surface Elf before. Albeit, she was young, but on the other hand, she was quite adventerous, and had gone where many of her kin had not.
Shiftkitty 06-28-07, 10:48 PM	Well, as I think it was DotU, they didn't specify Menzo. It may have been the city they profile in the book. I don't have the current population of Menzo. I last heard it was about 32000. Somewhere I read about a city of 400,000 (maybe in DotU? It's been hot here and my brain is cooking...). Would it be unthinkable that a major trade city would look the other way for surface dwellers of all kinds with money as long as they didn't draw too much attention to themselves?
Zanan 06-29-07, 02:58 AM	Well, as I think it was DotU, they didn't specify Menzo. It may have been the city they profile in the book. I don't have the current population of Menzo. I last heard it was about 32000. Somewhere I read about a city of 400,000 (maybe in DotU? It's been hot here and my brain is cooking...). Would it be unthinkable that a major trade city would look the other way for surface dwellers of all kinds with money as long as they didn't draw too much attention to themselves? The Drow of the Underdark sourcebook recently released is a core product. As such, it depicts and describes core drow cities. In the Forgotten Realms setting, you'll only find drow cities beneath the surface and all but half a handful of them are Lolthite cities, where surface elves are hated with abandon. If you find elves down there alive, it is purely because they are either slaves or have not yet been sacrificed. That is my impression on the current state of affairs, as it is described ever since I took up a book about the FR drow.
Shiftkitty 06-29-07, 10:38 AM	I'll go back and get a look. I found a few blatant contradictions elsewhere in the book about various things, but I pride myself on being creative enough to work around them. As we play it right now, because the Menzo drow in my campaign have much bigger problems on their hands, surface elves are made to feel very uncomfortable unless they're there on business. Then it's like "Do your thing and get out." If possible, such business is conducted away from the city in the bazaar, but it's not always possible, or advisable.