Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NobodyNoOne 08-08-07, 10:37 AM	What would be the best background for this guy. Hmmm. I was thinking something and came up with few ideas. I liked this one best: Sun Elf (wizard) who is sage and (rather obsesed) elven historian (and somewhat elven nazi-he considers other races lesser even more than other elves do) travels everywhere around the elven and ex-elven lands (on Faerûn, he still has to work on the elves of other planes) gathering as much as elven lore as possible. On the end (after he finished with Aquatic elves and Avariel) he needed to gather knowledge on the modern drow. When he finished collecting lore gained from followers of Eilistraee, he turned to followers of Vhaerun, and when he finished with them he traveled into the Underdark. From Vhaerunians he learnt a usefull spell "Elf Disguise" which he used to "safely" travel around Drow cities and since he fluctuantly spoke all elven dialcts he had no trouble with disguise. He showed himself capable wizard and even became a member of a family (He said that he is a noble survivor from ruined house from some other city and masked all his lies with spells). He always had prepeared one ring with teleportation spell. One day Matron of that house gave a birth to a male child, third male child and he by then knew all he needed to know on the drow. So he couldn't wait for them to sacrifice a child so he grabbed him and used his ring to escape. Later he returned to Evermeet where he raised "his" child. "His" child grew to become a Corellon zealot and thus a paladin. This guy our paladin always helps those in need (if they deserve it) so he would save even an orc. His "father" has planted him with unmached hatred for orcs and especialy drow, but whenever he encounters evil he gives them a chance for redemption even to orcs and drow. For instance he greets evil drow with words: "A rightfull place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace live beneath the sun again where trees and flowers grow.", although those words and his kindnes are dogma of Eilistraee he is fierce worshiper of The Creator. His greatest wish is to make Spider Queen perish... What say you ? I have many ideas but I would like to use this one. I have yet to develop names and characters for this background story.
Blade_Shadow 08-08-07, 01:05 PM	i like it. p.s.- i wish my players would come up with stuff this interesting...
Lord Karsus 08-08-07, 11:33 PM	-Corellon Larethian doesn't exactly have Paladins.
Straploknight 08-08-07, 11:42 PM	He does now :P
Elemental_Elf 08-09-07, 03:57 AM	-Corellon Larethian doesn't exactly have Paladins. Paladin's of Freedom maybe? Otherwise, exceptions can be occur. Its not like Corellion is totally against those who are willing to sacrifice (Time, effort, life, limb, etc.) to help those in need. Also, its unlikely Corellion's church would refuse those who dedicate their lives to killing evil Orcs and Drow. Granted they may disagree with his strict interpretations of the law and cannon, but there's always people who do that in every society. ~~~ I like your history, very cool! Out of curiosity, what's his name?
Valgard 08-09-07, 09:05 AM	-Corellon Larethian doesn't exactly have Paladins. Although I enjoyed the background, anyone raised in an elf community, being a surface elf, a drow, or anything else, does not raise to paladin because 'I am a good guy'. Paladins, at least in Faerûn, come from societies with remnants of LG ideals supported by LG deities, mainly, human lands. Someone who rises in Evermeet does not say one day "In the name of Corellon, I shall bring justice and order to the world!" and that's what paladins do. I'm not saying that you cannot have an elf paladin in Evermeet, what I'm saying is that simply being raised under Corellon's point of view is not a good reason to become a paladin. Maybe this child was influenced by chivalrous tales from the mainland, or a human paladin from the Sword Coast was invited to Evermeet (I know that isn't quite probable) and the child met him. It's not necessary to be a paladin if you want to be good and bring mercy. You don't need even to be lawful. You may be a fighter if you want, and offer your enemies redemption.
Blade_Shadow 08-09-07, 02:43 PM	you know theres also the champion of corellon prc in races of the wild
Shiftkitty 08-09-07, 03:41 PM	There's also the problem of Corellon himself. He doesn't like the drow. Period. According to "Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves"*, he banished ALL of the dark elves, even those who weren't involved in the Crown Wars. (Corellon's a jerk, IMO.) I don't know that he'd touch even a good-aligned drow with a ten-foot astrally projected pole. I think elves also lean too far to the Chaos alignment, whereas paladins are of a Lawful bent. Aside from that, perhaps another elven deity intercedes on your character's behalf, providing the necessary services and throwing a good word into Corellon's pointed ear now and then, trying to wear the old SOB down. *I recommend this older supplement. It totally redrew the lines for elven relations and redefined the role of the drow. We fit it in by deciding that it was information that A) Lolth wanted covered up to keep her 'pets' subjugated, and B) the surface elves wanted covered up so that they wouldn't have to answer for anything (especially the Sun Elves).
Zanan 08-09-07, 03:57 PM	By default, all Realmspace divine casters have to follow the one-step rule. Paladins belong to this group and as Corellon and any other elven deity are Chaotic, they do not have paladins. You could use the Paladins of Freedom of Unearthed Arcana, of course. But still ... a drow paladin? Of Corellon? How long will it take Gothic Dan to point out that Corellon even had dark elven priests ... and me replying: aye, in days long gone! :D Edit: NobodyNoOne ... feel free to create the chap as you pleases. Don't try to look for lookalikes within Realmspace though, for there are none ... and most likely never will be.
GothicDan 08-09-07, 04:51 PM	Demihuman Deities was written as Present Tense in that section. ;) (Also: If it states explicitly that Darahl Firecloak has Drow clergy [LN Seldarine god], that's pretty good indication that it isn't the Seldarine that's entirely against the Drow, so much as Elven culture.) But my problem is more with the idea of a Paladin of Corellon. And LEoF makes it clear that it was the High Magi that cast the banishing ritual, not the Seldarine.
Zanan 08-10-07, 03:59 AM	In that section, and we even had dark elven high mages in Miyeritar walking into the Dark Disaster storms ... also written in the present tense, this time in Cormanthyr. It seem pretty obvious that both cases relate to pre-Descent "dark elves", but that's just MHO, of course. Darahl-who? In which FR source does he or his alias make an appearance? Anyway, as I have said, there's no problems with paladins of freedom these days ... or, for that matter, if people stick to the alignment rules of DD and the like.
Stigger 08-10-07, 04:27 AM	Sune breaks the One-Step Rule with her paladin order, don't see why a DM couldn't say Corellon (or whatever deity tickles them) breaks it as well... once you get one exception, you open the door for other exceptions afterall. ;)
Zanan 08-10-07, 08:05 AM	Sune breaks the One-Step Rule with her paladin order, don't see why a DM couldn't say Corellon (or whatever deity tickles them) breaks it as well... once you get one exception, you open the door for other exceptions afterall. ;) Hence I would ask the designers to re-step in canon lore and when a long-overdue Faiths & Pantheons II happens by, the alignment rules for all faiths with regard to clergy and worshippers is simply copy & pasted from the Faiths & Avatars series. They are far more lenient and more specific to each deity than the rather simplistic OSR, IMHO.
Meldread 08-10-07, 08:45 AM	Alright, I am going to admit it. When I first read the topic I was going to rush in here and begin saying, "No, no and no!" However, having read the post I'm going to revise my opinion. You face a few problems. 1. Corellon is Chaotic Good. 2. Corellon hates Drow. 3. A drow... growing up... in Evermeet? Having read the story I like the idea to an extent ,but I think it needs some tweaking. I'm willing to wave the whole thing with Corellon's alignment. Exceptions can be made. The same with Corellon's drow hating ways, he isn't Shevarash, after all. It's within the realm of possibility. However, I do have a few things to point out. First, the Sun Elf who raised him HAS to be of Lawful alignment, as that is the only way to explain the Drow also being Lawful. Second, the Sun Elf would also likely have to be Lawful Neutral at best... Lawful Evil at worst. I can't imagine him being good having actually joined a Drow House willingly, that combined with him being being almost Nazi like in his views of other races... well he doesn't seem like a very good guy. Lawful Neutral at best, maybe Lawful Evil for a time but mellowed with age. Third, why would he save a Drow baby? If he is basically a Nazi and taught the Drow child to hate other Drow then why would he save the baby? Forth, I just can't imagine him living on Evermeet. I can't imagine the other Elves letting him stay, and I can't imagine that he eventually wouldn't be caught. Okay here are my suggestions. Have the Sun Elf be Lawful Evil. He steals the Drow child not necessarily to save his life, but to prevent the Drow from using him in some evil ritual to Lolth. Give him some prophetic background. Make him slightly more important. The Sun Elf steals him to study him and the prophecy involving the child. He raises the child in some isolated area of Faerun, but due to his bigotry the child is mistreated for much of his young life. The only real deity that he has ever known of is Corellon and as he reaches maturity he begins to have dream-visions delivered to him form Corellon (and maybe Eilistraee and some other Elven Deities). This is the prelude to Paladinhood. Start him out as a fighter or some other fighting class - Crusader would also be a good choice. Role-play wise Paladinhood should be one of your characters goals. He should be actively working toward proving his worth, perhaps he is on some quest. Perhaps he runs away from his abusive Sun Elven Stepfather. Perhaps some event happens that throws him into the world. In either case, he is adventuring now and being pushed on a course out of his control toward a destiny that he doesn't even fully comprehend. That can go a long way to explaining away things and making him even more special. I hope this helps. The above is what I thought up in about five minutes time.
NobodyNoOne 08-10-07, 09:24 AM	Actually his father is Lawful Good. He was just pretending to do everything for the drow house, and the real thing is he was saving people from them all the time. He doesn't behave like nazi, he just has such views (as all elves do), but he is just a bit harsher with his nationalism because he is historian and all that. But nontheless, unlike some other sun elves he would stop by the road and help the wounded human. He openly presented his child in Evermeet. He had no trouble at all keeping the child (after all they respect him greatly). Corellon hates Lloth, and all who worship her, not drow. His dogma clearly states a message to all elves "...Be ever vigilant against the return of banished darkness, and be strong in heart against corruption of the Spider Queen." I know some of you would interpret the line "Be ever vigilant against the return of banished darkness" as his hatred of drow but actually he is speaking about Lloth. And he even has a message to drow in his last line "and be strong in heart against corruption of the Spider Queen." He is father to all elves who are his blood. I can't imagine father hating his children no matter how fallen they would apear, he could only try to help them with advice (which he does in last line of his dogma) and weep over his child's failings. I originaly intended for him to be a Paladin of Freedom with Elven Paladin replacement. I wanted to make a good bow & arrow paladin.
Green Elven Vampire 08-10-07, 10:54 AM	As said by LK, Valgard and GD, there is no such thing as a cannon Paladin of Corellon Larethian. You can make one in your home brew game if you'd like, but don't expect that PC to work at a FR game convention.
Lord Karsus 08-10-07, 11:21 PM	Darahl-who? In which FR source does he or his alias make an appearance? -A member of the Sept'Tel'Seldarine that made an appearance in the "Seldarine Expanded" article in DRAGON 236 and/or DRAGON 251.
Zanan 08-11-07, 10:08 AM	-A member of the Sept'Tel'Seldarine that made an appearance in the "Seldarine Expanded" article in DRAGON 236 and/or DRAGON 251. Is that FR or Core Seldarine stuff?
GothicDan 08-11-07, 10:18 AM	It was 2E, so no core vs. FR vs. whatever pantheons. Of course, I'm sure you'll argue with this despite it being clearly the case of canon. We can always ask Ed, though since he's always been a fan of local and cultural demigods, we can almost assuredly predict what he'll say.
msatran 08-11-07, 04:42 PM	According to the Rules as Written, there are NO Elven Deities in the FR that can have Paladins. We're sorry. Your divine intervention call did not go through. Please try worshipping a non-elven deity, which will make you a pariah to your friends, and laughed at by your enemies. This message has been brought to you by the infamous Gold Elf Conspiracy, and it's secret leader, Tordynnath Rhaenvern. We appreciate your patience. You'll be an elf soon, or you'll be dead. :)
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 06:55 PM	It was 2E, so no core vs. FR vs. whatever pantheons. -Ah, the good ol' days of the Great Wheel.
Mr_Miscellany 08-11-07, 08:39 PM	It was 2E, so no core vs. FR vs. whatever pantheons. ...erm, no. Pantheons were recognizably and canonically specific then, just as now.
Lord Karsus 08-11-07, 10:25 PM	...erm, no. Pantheons were recognizably and canonically specific then, just as now. -There were not multiple versions of the same pantheon, as there are now- "Core Seldarine", "FR Seldarine", "Eberron Seldarine", "Core Mordinsamman", "FR Mordinsamman", "Eberron Mordinsamman", and so on.
Mr_Miscellany 08-12-07, 01:53 AM	Allow me to clarify: It is correct that -in 2E terms- there were not two (or more) physically distinct and separate of Orcus, Lloth, Tiamat/Takhisis, etc... However, Faerûn’s pantheon was still just that, Faerûn’s pantheon. Likewise with the Dragonlance setting, etc... Unfortunate implications about the supposed cross polinating of knowledge about divine doings and deaths between spheres aside (worst thing Eric Boyd wrote/had to write, you ask me), 99% of the residents of each pantheon did not or could not view the divine beings they venerated as part of some greater whole. Having played through the release of 2nd Edition and thus the ToT and its aftermath, it’s nice to see that the game has stepped away from the “one god for all settings approach” so firmly enshrined in its aftermath. Not all of us long for the old days.
msatran 08-12-07, 03:44 AM	I only long for the old days when the new days arrive with tactical incompetence and ignorance of what creatures can actually do according to the rules of the game. If I had Sarya Dlardrageth and that army at her disposal, I would be harrying the elves every day rather than continue falling back. I would spend the resources of Myth Drannor and it's ancient treasures to have the leaders of the crusade assassinated and their FOOD SUPPLY targeted. An army travels on it's stomach. Destroy their food and they can't march. Hunt down Landsharks and turn them into beetles, fill up jars with them, drop them on the enemy and dismiss the spell. Use your demons to cast Unholy Blight on colossal groups of people. 20 times in the same area. Then send in your troops to finish off the helpless foes. This campaign was only won because Sarya was a moron and didn't use her resources effectively. I despise it when they treat people who capitalize on dumb errors of the enemy as heroes.
Zanan 08-12-07, 04:52 PM	It was 2E, so no core vs. FR vs. whatever pantheons. Of course, I'm sure you'll argue with this despite it being clearly the case of canon. We can always ask Ed, though since he's always been a fan of local and cultural demigods, we can almost assuredly predict what he'll say. So in essence, he's a Core deity that has not appeared in any FR source and as such does not belong to the FR Seldarine (as yet). Fair enough. :cool:
MarkusTay63 08-12-07, 07:06 PM	I'm a little late with this, but why argue over Paladins of the Seldarin... again? We've been down this road before, so instead of pulling out the rulebooks on the guy, how about re-working his story to better fit canon? First off - A Gold Elf wouldn't survive a day in the Underdark. That is why I used a Dark Elven scholar from another sphere as my 'reporter' for the Elven Netbbok. You are talking about a faerie Elf inside of a highly-magical Drow city, and Drow are suspicious of EVERYONE. That being said, I would adjust the story as follows - I believe it is Drow custom to sacrifice the first born male to Lolth. Lets use a smaller settlement, to make the story workable. Lets use Ust Natha¹, because it comes from a video game source, so we can bend canon around it. Matron Mother Ardulace's frst born son has reached the age of majority, and the time has come to sacrifice him on the distant Altar of the Nether Webs². The one major difference in religious practices in that city is that they wait until the child is 21 (about 12-13 in human terms) before the sacrifice is made. A group of priests and the Matron Mother travel to the alter, located several miles from the city, and begin the ritual. Alas, a group of adventures break into the chamber just before the fatal blow is struck. It is a large group of Triad Knights from nearby Tethyr, who have been scouring the caverns beneath an old fortress that Drow were rumoured to be using as a base of operations. They found a network of tunnels that led down into the Underdark, and this is when they interupt the dark ceremony. There are 30 people in the group, who are able to fight off the Drow, killing most of the priestesses, but the Matron Mother escapes (vowing revenge). The Paladins quickly go to 'rescue' the sacrificial victim, who has been smeered with 'holy unguents' (in other words, he is covered with a foul-smelling gease), and carry the young boy back to the surface. They thought they had rescued an elf, but once they clean him up it becomes apparent he is a Drow child. Many of the common soldiers that had accompanied the knights of the Triad into the Night Below wanted to kill the child immediately, but the Paladins had a bit of a conundrum. Because he was a child, he was considered innocent of any crimes his people may have commited. That is when Laxaella Bronshield, Baronese of Tanistan and Paladin of Helm, offered to take the child and raise him in Mount Noblese, a temple-fortress dedicated to the triad and on the border of Tethyr and Erlkazar. The Paladins agreed, and the child was raised in the ways of a Knight of Helm. At first he resisted, but when he realized that these humans were trying to help him, whereas his people tried to kill him, he relented, and eventually became one of the finest fighters in the citadel. His natural agility allowed him to dodge blows better then most, and he chose to eschew armor in favor of maneuverability. As he grew, he proved himself adept at defeating better armored foes, and soon he was permitted to travel with a routine patrol around the outskirts of Shilmista. The group of soldiers came across a group of Cyricists attacking a small party of Wood Elves. Rushing to help, the young Drow proved himself and slew several of the evil priests himself. When Shayleigh asks about the brave Knight who saved her and her party, she is shocked to see the face of a Dark Elf beneath the helmet. Because of the uniquness of the situation, he is invited to an audience with the King of Shilmista. There they learn his story, and he is invited into the Temple of Corellon for a blessing by the priests. He is blessed, and begins his journey (alone) back to his companions at the forest's edge. He stops to sleep for the night, and he has a strange dream - of a Dark Elven maiden a majestic looking elf, both peering down upon him. "There father, it is he who has saved your people, and he has proven the worth of mine" The Elf Lord looks sad for a moment, and speaks in a voice that is both like the thundering of mountains, and the flutter of a butterflies wings, "Arise Child, and be at peace. Though truly hast proven me wrong, in so many ways. Your spirit shines brighter then the sun, and thy heart beats with the nobility of the Elven race. You will go forth and rejoice, for the Seldarine at last welcome you and yours home. Hear now my judgement... forever more shall thee be my hand, and my arm. You will use the skills the humans have taught you, and seek out enemies of the Elven People. You are their protector now, and forevermore." With that the young Drow awoke, and he felt a strange lightness of heart, something he has never truly felt before. He did return to his squad of Knights, but only to tell them it was time for them to part ways. I would give him a twist, hence his not wearing heavy armor - maybe give him a single level of a class that gives bonuses to lightly armored combatants (Monk, duelist, Swashbuckler), or perhaps just take away his proficiency with shields and heavy armor, and give him a +2 AC while un-armored. Just a flavor option, but it's up to you - I just picture an Elven Knight wearing leather instead of metal armor (like the pic of the core Pally in the PHB). ¹Ust Natha – A small Drow city located somewhere beneath Athkatla in Amn. It is a traditional Dark Elven city, ruled by the Priestesses of Lolth under the guidance of Matron Mother Ardulace. Despite its small size, the city fares fairly well by trading with merchant interests in Amn, and by paying tribute to the powerful city of Guallidurth. The only other personages of note associated with Ust Natha is a powerful Lich named Deirex who makes the city his home, and the Drow mercenary Jarlaxle who has been seen making various connections within the city. ²Altar of the Nether Webs - I just made this up, but I figure you needed something grim sounding that was located far enough from the city that would explain why a small group of surface dwellers were able to interrupt the ceremony.
Faraer 08-12-07, 07:25 PM	--
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 12:02 AM	-- -That about sums it up. :P So in essence, he's a Core deity that has not appeared in any FR source and as such does not belong to the FR Seldarine (as yet). Fair enough. :cool: -Again, the deity in question belonged to the Seldarine in 2e. Nothing in 3e has nullified this. Thus, the deity still belongs to the Seldarine. Not all of us long for the old days. -If it weren't for all of that previously established lore that said otherwise, about multispheric deities and pantheons, I might agree.
GothicDan 08-13-07, 02:32 AM	So in essence, he's a Core deity that has not appeared in any FR source and as such does not belong to the FR Seldarine (as yet). Fair enough. As always, you do wonders to needlessly capitalize on minor ambiguities (in this case, in Edition changes) to form an opinion that's more suitable to you, than one that is actually more idealistically valid. There were no Core deities before - since they were members of the same Seldarine pantheon that was worshiped by the Elves of Toril in 2E, and there's been no 3E lore to overwrite this, by default they'd still be in the same Seldarine pantheon that is worshiped by the Elves of Toril.
GothicDan 08-13-07, 02:50 AM	Having played through the release of 2nd Edition and thus the ToT and its aftermath, it’s nice to see that the game has stepped away from the “one god for all settings approach” so firmly enshrined in its aftermath. And, classic WotC, they then tried to immediately implement the same food with a different name on the menu, by trying to make sweeping deletions of 'redundant' racial and cultural deities, instead trying to replace them with (or simply forget to give them credible detail in 3E sourcebooks) deities from the Faerunian pantheon. Fey? Oh, they worship... Silvanus. And Sahuagin worship Umberlee. I'm sure glad Eric Boyd managed to start the ball rolling by sneaking in a few references under the radar. And, no, I'm really not just trying to nitpick with Wizards here - this tendency to initially start on one path and rapidly backtrack with a foot in their mouths is a bit tiresome. It doesn't do much as far as trying to foster any sort of a perennial mood or theme for the game. They did the same with classes - originally, saying they were eliminating Kits and multiple full classes (like Specialty Priests), in favor of capitalizing on the core archetype classes and Feats. This initially seemed like a wonderful idea to me (I either prefer a ruleset to have absolutely no flavor, or setting-specific flavor), but then they went and started churning out hundreds of PrCs and Substitution Levels (Kits, anyone?) and 20 level classes galore. I am actually IN FAVOR of Substitution Levels and 20 level classes (tailored specifically to setting/cultural idiosyncrasies), but to me they seem a very odd fit with the original intent for core classes and Feats to customize, and it sort of verifies much of any hatred I've had for the way-too specific core Cleric. Take Domains and Feats, they said, to simulate Specialty Priests; I made 20 level classes. And then WotC starts to make very-specific niche classes (True Necromancer, for instance), when they just could have introduced the Feats from Libris Mortis, Heroes of Horror, etc., and utilized the already-existent classes and core prestige classes (Wizard, Cleric, Mystic Theurge) to achieve much of the same thing, keeping the exact same flavor, cutting down on pages of (redundant, ironically enough) crunch, making a still-adequate (if not super-optimized) adventuring career path of levels, and keeping to their original design. I don't much like it when a company basically claims their mechanics are perfectly sufficient despite being not specifically designed for given cultural roles, and then they go ahead and completely mechanically invalidate that stance in an attempt to create more rules to sell more books to make more money. I'm sure they had polls and demographics to support this decision (and others like it), but it's hard (for me, at least) to really get attached to a system that seems constantly in flux for no real purpose on my end of the deal. I wonder which role they'll choose for 4E. Certainly, they'll poll to see whatever will make them the most money in the immediate future, possibly changing things (SOME of which with true validity, others, not) that people who were starting to become comfortable and cozy with the mechanical and thematic design, no longer approve of, and alienating past customers. I think it's sufficient evidence of these boards to see how many 'grogards' persist in older editions merely because they don't like change, but I can't think of many humans without neurological disorders who enjoy having their routine shaken up repeatedly to the point that they think life doesn't care for them. WotC SHOULDN'T 'care' for us (I was never in that crowd), but a company should certainly make it seem like they do. I guess this is largely why I dislike Mage: the Awakening so much, too. They 'streamlined' the rules (which was better), but part of 'streamlining' them meant printing a comprehensive D&D-like list of Effects, when such were scattered and rare in books before, with the previously immersed theme of Will = Reality allowing you to bend magic to your command at a whim. Streamlining things isn't always better for ALL sectors; change to make things 'easiest' to the immediate future potential buying potential to 'streamline' things often undermines the lore of more specifically-tailored, 'clunkier' mechanics (Elven High Magic, magic item creation, metamagic). I've always been quite happy with FR not staying super-current and on top of new 'mechanics' as they were put out, with only acknowledgments as to their existence (in latter 2E, at least). If you work the mechanics too heavily into a world, when those mechanics change, the world itself would change (all too often retroactively!) This was a mistake of 1E, I feel (what with the whole 'Assassins must die now' fiasco) - trying to work core/Edition rules too heavily into the Realms, often by very specific terminologies and unique abilities that wouldn't be the same, or perhaps not even exist in a new rule set, or might not be easily translatable into it. A lot of the weird newer PrCs and novel protagonists focus so much on fitting niche ability roles, that they literally FEEL like they're just waiting to be forgotten in a few years. But Bards, Mages, Clerics, Knights, etc. are intrinsic to FR's culture, and will persist, since they are 'archetypes' that don't rely on esoteric class abilities to define themselves. This is rambling. It's late, and I'm totally crashing off of amphetamines at the moment. I've just been actually trying to state, explicitly, why I dislike a lot of WotC's rule decisions. I'd hate to be labeled a 'grognard,' and hating of change at all times, considering my field (and my future specialty field!) relies entirely on that shifty, ever-changing, defined as undefinable thing known as Quantum Mechanics. PS: To sum it up better, it seems almost like they're trying to play the kid that is trying to make everyone like him from moment to moment, and only ends up with a lot of people disliking him. I'd make an applicable quote regarding hermaphrodites if it was kosher.
msatran 08-13-07, 03:56 AM	Oh, by the way, I found a rules loophole. You CAN be an Elven paladin and worship an Elven God. Ready? You can be a paladin of Hanali Celanil. Sune and Hanali share EVERYTHING, including character classes and PRCs. So, technically, RAW, you CAN do this. It's phenomenally...utterly...DUMB...but RAW, it can be done.
GothicDan 08-13-07, 04:02 AM	Don't you know all cultures worship divine archetypes in the exact same way?
Zanan 08-13-07, 04:05 AM	As always, you do wonders to needlessly capitalize on minor ambiguities (in this case, in Edition changes) to form an opinion that's more suitable to you, than one that is actually more idealistically valid. There were no Core deities before - since they were members of the same Seldarine pantheon that was worshiped by the Elves of Toril in 2E, and there's been no 3E lore to overwrite this, by default they'd still be in the same Seldarine pantheon that is worshiped by the Elves of Toril. Both in reply to you and Karsus ... while I see your point and do not promote mine, as is underlied in the above, I simply stated that the FR Seldarine knows no such deity. For the simple reason that whatever or whoever is listed in Core material, unless he/she/it is included in an FR list of deities, be it F&A, DD, P&P, FRCS or F&P, he/she/it does not (yet) belong to the FR pantheon or Seldarine, for that matter. Do you concur?
GothicDan 08-13-07, 04:09 AM	I can understand why you have that opinion, but I do not share it, and I think that it's being a little silly to believe it. The new Seldarine were never even mentioned as being part of the Core Seldarine in 3E, either. Does that mean they don't exist at all any more, despite older canon 2E lore still standing until negated by more current information? They were introduced, given very nice tales and histories, in the two Dragon magazines in 2E. Now, the 'new' Seldarine presented in Races of the Wild (shoddily designed and written aside) were specifically introduced in a 'Core' book in 3E, so I would concur with you regarding THEM. Since they were introduced when all Seldarine were still wholly, emphatically, and unequivocally the same pantheon across all Prime Worlds, they have the same the same validity as the rest of the Seldarine. Where the Seldarine is, they don't necessarily have significant worshipers, but with how tightly-knit and Portfolio-winding the pantheon is, I'm sure they have shrines in appropriate temples, and are remembered in the right histories and holy texts. Invoking something along the lines of the Grandfather Law may be at times immoral, but there's actually perfectly valid analogs in discrete mathematics and logic. :) More editing: With so much planar and divine cross-pollination throughout the history of Abeir-Toril, it would be almost silly for the Elves not to know of ALL the Seldarine, now that I think about it. The Elves of Evermeet remain close ties with the Elven Imperial Navy, and Starjam themselves. The Elves were interlopers themselves, after all. I wonder how confusing it would be for a Cleric who had met a Priest of Darahl Firecloak on a Starjammer to dial up Corellon about him. Would the Realmspace Corellon answer, "I don't know who that is"? And would he then call up the Greyhawk Corellon and supernaturally be retroactively enlightened, and would Darahal and Co. immediately gain potential preference in Realmspace? [That's IF we go with your idea, of course.] Separate cosmologies can really cause for such sticky situations - not the idea of itself, but rather when it's implemented too late. I think a lot of good ideas are spoiled by previous foundations that, while just as good, just aren't built to support them.
Zanan 08-13-07, 04:15 AM	So you do not concur to canon lore saying that unless a deity is listed among the Faerûnian ones, it does not belong to the FR cosmology? You see, this is not about personal opinions, just retracing FR lore. Whether I or you like it or not.
GothicDan 08-13-07, 04:38 AM	Rich Baker, while still the head designer of the Realms, I believe, said to basically ignore the statement in F&A that said that all deities mentioned there did not exist in the Realms. (And I assume you mean Abeir-Torillian cosmology.) 2E Lore: Darahl & Co. were part of the Seldarine. Since there was only one Seldarine, that means they belonged to the Seldarine present in the Realms. The fact that non-contradicted 2E lore is still canon is what's the point of contention with your statement right there. Any 2E lore regarding deities' cosmological locations/pantheons MUST still be canon (unless contradicted), and no where in their write-up does it say they belong to the 'Core' pantheon. So, if A IS true, and B (your statement) IS true, both by definition, then it's only logical to assume that the seeming paradox can be reconciled in analyzing the ambiguities (the characteristics that COULD go either way) and choosing those options, and those options only, which make them both still true. That is: it's ambiguous as to which Seldarine Darahl & Co. are active in, since in 2E, they were introduced when the Wheel was the only cosmology, not just 'Core' (Dragon was just as canon as F&A and such as far as cosmological things go, and especially for the interloper Demihuman Gods). The ambiguity is: which of the following do we take to be true? A) Do they exist in whatever the Wheel cosmology is? It's stated that they exist there, but not ONLY there. B) Do they exist among the Seldarine? Well, purely logically, this has to be true, since that's what's written to a T. It doesn't say which Seldarine pantheons. So, we can choose both to be true. They exist in the Wheel (AND elsewhere) and they exist in the Seldarine (wherever they are - all colored boats are still 'boats'). Note that I also find it ironic that you refer to dismissing lore held as still-canon by WotC's own words (the new Seldarine are among the Seldarine, all of them, in all worlds, according to 2E) as all well and good in order to verify your own bit of canon lore. Two canon bits of lore don't cancel one out unless WotC says so; all we can do is to hope to make BOTH true. In this case, we have. Canon 2E lore told us (by broad categories) that the new Seldarine are present within the Seldarine active in Realmspace.
Steelwind 08-13-07, 08:18 AM	When I looked at the title to this thread, I could almost feel the verbal backlash from Dan before I even read it. And dang you Dan for taking the Araevin avatar, I havent been on in a while so this is my first time seeing all the new ones, I guess I will have to make due with Malikzid.
msatran 08-13-07, 05:29 PM	The New Seldarine! It's like New X-Men, only with less characters and twice as confusing!
Stigger 08-13-07, 06:37 PM	What a horrifying thought...
Zandilar 08-13-07, 07:13 PM	Heya, Oh, by the way, I found a rules loophole. You CAN be an Elven paladin and worship an Elven God. Ready? You can be a paladin of Hanali Celanil. Sune and Hanali share EVERYTHING, including character classes and PRCs. So, technically, RAW, you CAN do this. It's phenomenally...utterly...DUMB...but RAW, it can be done. Actually, that's not true. For a start, where does it specifically say that they share everything? As far as paladins go, Sune and Sune alone is highlighted as an exception. Sune and Hanali have always been close, after all, they share the Evergold (which they also share with Aphrodite and Sharess... and maybe more, but I can't remember and my brain isn't focusing this morning). Sune and Hanali share very similar portfolios - Sune has what I would call a fundamental portfolio - three simple/basic elements that encompass a very wide variety of ideas and concepts (Love, Beauty, Passion), whilst Hanali's is a touch more refined, having more specific elements that could all be encompassed by Sune's elements. The one exception seems to be Hanali's dominion over enchantment. So it's not terribly surprising that they have a lot in common. It isn't even surprising that they might share PrCs, but I don't think Hanali can have paladins, just because Sune can.
Mr_Miscellany 08-13-07, 07:48 PM	I'd hate to be labeled a 'grognard,' ...Dan, you're not old enough to be a grognard (yet). But maybe you just have an old soul. Give it time. ;)
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 10:08 PM	Dan, you're not old enough to be a grognard (yet). But maybe you just have an old soul. Give it time. ;) -Age matters not. The New Seldarine! It's like New X-Men, only with less characters and twice as confusing! -How I hate New X-Men, and everything it did to the Marvel U...
Mr_Miscellany 08-13-07, 11:09 PM	-Age matters not.Yes, it does. Otherwise, you're just a poseur.
Lord Karsus 08-13-07, 11:15 PM	Yes, it does. Otherwise, you're just a poseur. -No it doesn't. Just like older people can be "young at heart", so too can younger people be "old at heart". It's only logical.
Mr_Miscellany 08-13-07, 11:29 PM	If you haven't gamed for decades, you may not call yourself a grognard. With all due respect to a well read individual like Dan (and to use him as an example, however unwise that may end up being), while he may champion in some ways what he thinks were the best things that 2E and prior had to offer, I would never, ever hold up someone like him as an example of just such a champion, much less a grognard. Nor would I call someone with such attitudes "one of us". I don't doubt 2E and older editions call out to (relatively) newer players, as it does you (perhaps?) and many of us who played it from the time it first saw pring till the release of this most recent edition. But there is a very real difference between having played it for years vs. playing the tail end and pining for it after the fact. I see too many posts, day after day, that show the attitude difference. I see the elitism, the unwillingness to accept other (non Canon or what have you) points of view, the desire to post with an agenda vs. complete openness to whatever some new persons idea may be --where people's (read: Regulars) first priorities are their agenda as opposed to truly trying to enhance whatever the new idea is, even if in some small way. I see people so full of themselves they supposedly "get tired" of the same "annoying" posts, so they have "no choice" but to "go off" on the new person, then apologize for it after the fact. As if. We’ve just got too many people trying to hold up ‘old’ chunks (or their favorite parts of older material, or whatever) of the Realms, to the detriment of those who come into it new and quite frankly don’t need to be drawn in to the B.S. Back in the day, if you had an idea that ‘violated’ canon, you’d get people who would tell you why your idea officially couldn’t work......then they’d tell you, in very creative, illuminating ways, how to make it work, canon be damned. This is because people -and by extension, having fun- are more important than the setting. Grognards get that.
godbeepit 08-14-07, 12:01 AM	Although I enjoyed the background, anyone raised in an elf community, being a surface elf, a drow, or anything else, does not raise to paladin because 'I am a good guy'. Paladins, at least in Faerûn, come from societies with remnants of LG ideals supported by LG deities, mainly, human lands. Someone who rises in Evermeet does not say one day "In the name of Corellon, I shall bring justice and order to the world!" and that's what paladins do. I'm not saying that you cannot have an elf paladin in Evermeet, what I'm saying is that simply being raised under Corellon's point of view is not a good reason to become a paladin. Maybe this child was influenced by chivalrous tales from the mainland, or a human paladin from the Sword Coast was invited to Evermeet (I know that isn't quite probable) and the child met him. First off, you are incredibly right that just saying 'I'm a good guy' makes you qualified as a paladin. Paladins are called on by their deities. It is simply a way of life that no one else can understand except for another paladin. Also, simply because someone is raised in a chaotic house does not mean he has to be chaotic as well. What if the chaotic house bothers him so much because he is a lawful soul? He chafes under his family, even against the entire society. But, because he has been cared for and also cares about the elves, he does not simply want to destroy them. He could see order as helpful and make the elves even more powerful to protect themselves from the evils lurking around Faerun.
msatran 08-14-07, 12:18 AM	They already share the Heartwarder PRC.
GothicDan 08-14-07, 01:58 AM	If you haven't gamed for decades, you may not call yourself a grognard. With all due respect to a well read individual like Dan (and to use him as an example, however unwise that may end up being), while he may champion in some ways what he thinks were the best things that 2E and prior had to offer, I would never, ever hold up someone like him as an example of just such a champion, much less a grognard. Well, only a single decade for me. I'm safe. I see too many posts, day after day, that show the attitude difference. I see the elitism, Thank goodness! the unwillingness to accept other (non Canon or what have you) points of view, Which aren't innately right or wrong - change of ANYTHING isn't inherently better, as many people have specifically espoused on these boards. What matters is WHY one might choose not to accept such non-canon assertions. the desire to post with an agenda vs. complete openness to whatever some new persons idea may be --where people's (read: Regulars) first priorities are their agenda as opposed to truly trying to enhance whatever the new idea is, even if in some small way. I consider giving one knowledge as to canon, and logical arguments as to its being that way, very much enhances the new idea, just like official debates have both a Positive and a Negative, and if the Negative makes a counter-plan for the Positive, they automatically lose. I see people so full of themselves they supposedly "get tired" of the same "annoying" posts, so they have "no choice" but to "go off" on the new person, then apologize for it after the fact. No one ever has bad days, right? We’ve just got too many people trying to hold up ‘old’ chunks (or their favorite parts of older material, or whatever) of the Realms, I'm not sure why that's a bad thing. People have opinions and preferences about everything. to the detriment of those who come into it new and quite frankly don’t need to be drawn in to the B.S. Obviously some people feel they do need to be 'drawn into the BS,' since more than one of us has attached themselves to lore made long before we ever played the game at all. Back in the day, if you had an idea that ‘violated’ canon, you’d get people who would tell you why your idea officially couldn’t work......then they’d tell you, in very creative, illuminating ways, how to make it work, canon be damned. If I see the canon as potentially flawed, and another view more easily fitting, I do not hesitate to plunk it in, but I first do excessive research about the canon in question to make sure this bit of lore from this or that book doesn't make parts of the puzzle fit together more nicely. You really seem to promote the 'Who cares why things happened?' stance, which can be detrimental to exposing people to new alternatives to canon - by telling them how things once more, and letting them make up their minds what they want. This is because people -and by extension, having fun- are more important than the setting. Of course. But I really don't care how much fun someone else is having, intrinsically, halfway across the world. I like to help people get more facts and trace together pictures (mmm, physics), but I'm not going to go off on uber-positive rants about things that I don't have fun with myself. The Selfish Gene. I need to read that book.
Zanan 08-14-07, 08:26 AM	@ Gothic Dan ... I would assume you erred in so far as Rich Baker was speaking about the line in F&P, not F&A. We had a set pantheon for elves and humans and drow and what have you in AD&D, all deities listed in the great F&A series. All 3E FR-sources pick on these books and unless I am mistaken, they are all still valid. There have to be certain events to make new deities suddenly join up any pantheon within the FR and a mentioning in the odd Dragon - which apperently gives no relation to the Realms as such, or the FR Seldarine - is not a free ticket for anyone to claim they "officially belong" to the FR Seldarine. Much the same with e.g. Kephtolo being a Core drow deity, because he is mentioned to be Lolth's consort in Dragon 298. He does not simply plop into the FR drow pantheon either - nor do Selvetarm or Shevarash make the jump in the other direction. That said, if people want to use them in their own campaign, no problem. The "Great Wheel all settings are attached to one another" idea is fine, but it was to a large extend buried with the advent of 3E and the new cosmology of the Realms. Whether some of us like it or not.
Zandilar 08-14-07, 08:59 PM	Heya, There have to be certain events to make new deities suddenly join up any pantheon within the FR and a mentioning in the odd Dragon - which apperently gives no relation to the Realms as such, or the FR Seldarine - is not a free ticket for anyone to claim they "officially belong" to the FR Seldarine. I want to say something about this, to highlight it... It's rather unfair for those of us with no access to Dragon, to have to swallow stuff in there as canon. How on Earth are we supposed to get access to that information? Seriously. I have the Dragon Archives, so I do actually have access to some of them - but if I didn't have the archives, I would have access to maybe a dozen Dragon magazines at most. These extra members of the Seldarine might be in an Archive magazine. But that's a PDF sitting on a CD at the moment (still haven't managed to get the files across to my puter yet). They're not mentioned in any published Forgotten Realms source outside of Dragon. If the only reason they weren't mentioned in Faiths and Avatars is because they were published later on in Dragon, don't you think that if they were intended to be canon, they'd have made it into Faiths and Pantheons or web enhancement? (I mean, they never mentioned that Eilistraee now accepts male clergy, but that's what we're given to believe on the basis that the previous gender bias is not mentioned at all in Faiths and Pantheons.)
GothicDan 08-14-07, 09:20 PM	Many FR writers, including Ed, have written Dragon magazines about FR. Why wouldn't such things be canon? You're basically saying, "Why should anything someone could potentially not own?" be canon, it looks like. I'm sorry if that seems just a little silly. You could say the same thing about any content from previous editions not as a free download, any current FR 3E material you don't have want to/can't buy... Honestly, I have never owned, read, or even touched a copy of Dragon until my ex gave me a spare set of the Archives. I never had a problem with the stuff being canon, though. If the only reason they weren't mentioned in Faiths and Avatars is because they were published later on in Dragon, don't you think that if they were intended to be canon, they'd have made it into Faiths and Pantheons or web enhancement? (I mean, they never mentioned that Eilistraee now accepts male clergy, but that's what we're given to believe on the basis that the previous gender bias is not mentioned at all in Faiths and Pantheons.) No, I absolutely do not. They wasted literally DOZENS of pages on deity stats and almost literally copied and pasted dozens of others. Just talking about my 'expectations' of this book, what I think it would have included, brings bile to my throat. Also... I don't think that pretty much any Dragon material made it into F&A/DD/etc., and we know that TSR's stance for the published magazines was that they WERE canon. So, just because the new Seldarine were not, doesn't mean it's not canon - it just means that the authors chose not to sift through hundreds of issues when they were writing the books.
Mr_Miscellany 08-14-07, 10:04 PM	So, just because the new Seldarine were not, doesn't mean it's not canon - it just means that the authors chose not to sift through hundreds of issues when they were writing the books. Or it could just as easily mean Wotc chose not to include what amounted to extraneous Realms-related material. Given that one of the more prominent editors of Dragon wrote quite a bit of Faiths and Pantheons, I highly doubt he/they were unaware of the excess lore on the subject of the Seldarine. :::: Which aren't innately right or wrong - change of ANYTHING isn't inherently better, as many people have specifically espoused on these boards. This, I think, encapsulates my point. Grognards understand your point isn’t true. It’s never about choice, in the sense that one is either deviating from canon or one is not. It’s about one’s absolute right to render a Realms Campaign (or any D&D campaign) as one sees fit. Ed’s first rule of the Realms: Make it your own. What matters is WHY one might choose not to accept such non-canon assertions. Grognards understand that to question another's motives first before addressing that person's questions is disrespectful. From a practical point of view, Grogs understand such kills creative discussion because it puts everyone's motives up for questioning. Ergo, if I'm questioning you about you, I'm not focusing on your question or your game, so I'm not helping you. Grognards understand that the game and its settings, regardless of its rules and published lore about such, aren't more imporant than having fun. While it might be useful to disabuse people of pre-conceived notions that are generally false, it's still no excuse for elitism and disrespect (read: the "Oh God, here's another one..." attitude). Being knowledgeable about the Realms requires one to show restraint, patience and even kindness to those who might not know better, at all times. The capacity to render such to others is, in some way, a measure of character. :)
GothicDan 08-14-07, 10:04 PM	The clergy of Corellon includes gold elves (33%), moon elves (30%), wild elves (15%), sea elves (10%), half-elves of various ancestries (12%) and even a handful of dark elves. That's the quote from Demihuman Deities regarding Corellon. I'm not sure how it could be misconstrued, unless it was proceeded by a statement saying it refers to a time before the Crown Wars. To give further evidence... Under Specialty Priests, it says that Feywardens cannot be Drow. Why would they have to say this if the above quote had been in the past? Another deity, Labelas, is as follows: The clergy of Labelas includes gold elves (40%), moon elves (30%), wood elves (12%), sea elves (10)%, half-elves of those ancestries (7%), and a handful of elves and half-elves of other stock (1%). This would imply Dark Elves, too. And his Priests can be ANY kind of Elf.
Zanan 08-15-07, 04:32 AM	That's the quote from Demihuman Deities regarding Corellon. I'm not sure how it could be misconstrued, unless it was proceeded by a statement saying it refers to a time before the Crown Wars. To give further evidence... Under Specialty Priests, it says that Feywardens cannot be Drow. Why would they have to say this if the above quote had been in the past? Another deity, Labelas, is as follows: This would imply Dark Elves, too. And his Priests can be ANY kind of Elf. I wondered how long it would take you to dig that up. :D Obviously, that does not solve the paladin topic at hand. As for the Dragon material, we should not mix this up. Dragon stuff can very well be canon and valid for the FR too (if they are mentioned). That is not to say, however, that everything in a Dragon shall be considered canon for all settings, especially when we have up-to-date and detailed info on the topic. That elven deity had a number of chances to be included in the FR pantheon since the advent of 3E (e.g., much like the paragons or arch-fiends). He wasn't so far ... most likely because this pantheon is pretty stuffed already. That's the official end of the matter, whether we had/-ve a Core Seldarine with him or not. As for Eilistraee, going by AD&D lore, she had no male clerics. F&P, abbreviated a version of the F&A series as it is, does not make a mention of this, which can lead you to believe that she does no longer hold up such a stance. Ed said (not in print as yet though) that she may now accept males, over at the Candlekeep website. On the other hand, none of the recent novels, and especially Sacrifice of the Widow, suggest, that the females in her clergy show any sort of change in manners or acceptance of males though. Rather on the contrary - a great read for any would-be drow players of Eilistraee BTW. That can all change in 10 days time or so.
Zandilar 08-15-07, 08:34 AM	Heya, As for Eilistraee, going by AD&D lore, she had no male clerics. F&P, abbreviated a version of the F&A series as it is, does not make a mention of this, which can lead you to believe that she does no longer hold up such a stance. Ed said (not in print as yet though) that she may now accept males, over at the Candlekeep website. On the other hand, none of the recent novels, and especially Sacrifice of the Widow, suggest, that the females in her clergy show any sort of change in manners or acceptance of males though. Rather on the contrary - a great read for any would-be drow players of Eilistraee BTW. That can all change in 10 days time or so. The lack of a mention could have been taken to mean that it was all status quo, and nothing had changed since 2nd Ed (Occam's razor and all that - status quo, in this case, being the simplest explanation). Why people took it to mean otherwise, I don't know. However, now Ed Greenwood has said Eilistraee has started to accept males into her clergy... But with almost farcical hoops they have to jump through - they need to shapeshift and spend time as a female to get very far. That's not true acceptance, I hate to say... IMHO Status Quo with 2nd Ed would be far better - either that or full acceptance. No shapeshifting (not unless the male in question wanted to, of course). (Remember, RAW there are no clerical spells that could achieve such a shape change, and I don't think any of Eilistraee's domains include the short duration Alter Self spell - but I could be wrong.) If I could get my hands on Sacrifice of the Widow (or Lisa Smedman as the guy at my F(not so)LGS jokingly called it, since apparently the author's name is far larger than the title on the spine), I'm sure it would be an interesting read.
GothicDan 08-15-07, 11:52 AM	That doesn't seem farcical to me at all. All too many women I've known have told males "You're a male. You just don't understand."
Shiftkitty 08-15-07, 03:13 PM	OMG, you should be around here when the women get into a guy-bashing session. They can make the priestesses of Lloth seem like Sisters of Mercy where guys are concerned. I swear if they start in on another big one, I'm starting a "Save the Males" movement.
Zandilar 08-15-07, 08:02 PM	Heya, That doesn't seem farcical to me at all. All too many women I've known have told males "You're a male. You just don't understand." If you're going to force males to turn female just to advance within the clergy, there's really no point to saying "Eilistraee accepts males in her clergy" - because she (or maybe it's her clergy) doesn't. She accepts males, only as long as they're willing to forgo the gender they were born for long periods of time (Ed specifically said they do this change many times, of increasing duration). And if a male can't accept this stricture, then he can find no place within Eilistraee's clergy.
Lord Karsus 08-16-07, 09:50 PM	-This should help (maybe): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grognard
MarkusTay63 08-16-07, 11:37 PM	#1 Its not about the god, it's about the clergy. Eilistraee has no problem with men... just go and try to find a temple of hers that will accept you if you are. #2 That stuff found in Dragon Magazine, and even the Core books, are usually added to the setting by authors, not sourcebook designers. Example - the Goliaths are NOW canon, even though they appeared in a core book. Those gods exist, but since we have plenty to work with already, they are not neccessary to the setting in general and are included in the Mag as official "add-ins". Once an author has one of his characters worship one of those errant gods, then we will see them appear in the next source covering that region/race/deity. #3 I had to really think about this one, but I'm going to have to side with Dan on this. If every Seldarine God was part of EVERY Seldarine Pantheon in 2e (which is the case because they were all one and the same), then that god MUST exist in FR too. The rules explicitly state that unless contradicted by something in 3e, ALL 2e lore is still in effect. What would you tell a player that had a character worshipping one of those gods when the switch was made to 3e? His god went 'poof' and doesn't exist anymore? That would make no sense (unless you blame it on the ToT, but that little incident gets enough bad press).
Zandilar 08-17-07, 04:59 AM	Heya, #1 Its not about the god, it's about the clergy. Eilistraee has no problem with men... just go and try to find a temple of hers that will accept you if you are. You're right. Sorry. I should have been clearer. #3 I had to really think about this one, but I'm going to have to side with Dan on this. If every Seldarine God was part of EVERY Seldarine Pantheon in 2e (which is the case because they were all one and the same), then that god MUST exist in FR too. The rules explicitly state that unless contradicted by something in 3e, ALL 2e lore is still in effect. What would you tell a player that had a character worshipping one of those gods when the switch was made to 3e? His god went 'poof' and doesn't exist anymore? That would make no sense (unless you blame it on the ToT, but that little incident gets enough bad press). Any DM worth her salt would say "well obviously <insert Dragon Seldarine deity> doesn't vanish, since your character was worshiping him/her just last week... this god exists in MY Realms"... But if that DM doesn't have access to the magazine the deity appeared in, then the deity probably wouldn't have been a part of her campaign in the first place. Right?
GothicDan 08-17-07, 09:39 PM	Why? I gamed in a friend's homebrew world and I wanted to worship Myrkul. He looked over his entry in F&A and I played a Cleric/Necro of Myrkul.
Zanan 08-18-07, 04:10 AM	This is not how people should play their homebrew campaign or what individual DMs allow or not. It is about how canon lore covers the issue. Usually, no deity simply vanishes from a setting without reason (status-change does not count, e.g. Orcus et al) and none have within the Realms. Dragon articles have lots of fine stuff and - as you all know - if it is linked to the FR, e.g. just like the little sidebars in the MMs, there is no reason to bar it from FR canon. Yet, if I develop a deity or archfiend and put it in the Dragon, saying that it belongs to the Seldarine or whatever, it does not necessarily mean that it is FR lore too. Just by default, a previous edition's lore or a namesake pantheon. While it may be hard for some to understand and take, the FR cosmology (and other things) are a "ship in the bottle" and unless someone opens the stopper and puts something (with e.g. said sidebars), it remains not relevant to the FR setting / canon as such.
Lord Karsus 08-18-07, 05:53 PM	Usually, no deity simply vanishes from a setting without reason (status-change does not count, e.g. Orcus et al) and none have within the Realms. -Plenty of Monsterous deities were culled in Faiths and Pantheons . They were subsequently restored (some of them, anyway), but that is enough to prove this statement false.
GothicDan 08-19-07, 01:21 AM	Zanan, you can have whatever opinions you want regarding FR and Dragon material. Just don't state it like it's absolute canon - since it's obvious here that canon isn't clearly defined.
JaiaDrottsingr 08-21-07, 08:32 AM	On the ORIGINAL Topic (I haven't finished reading): Okay, this is a bad idea, why? Because, no matter how much I disagree with the Alignment System, LG is so far away from the nature of the drow that it would contradict with most of their personality or even lifestyle. Second reason: A drow may be a priest of Corellon, but (this might be because I have not read F&P) I believe they cannot be CL's Paladins. Third reason: Purely personal. Paladins are moral, courageous, and willing to do what their god tells them. (Even CG) Drow are immoral (at the least), courageous (when the time calls for it), and willing to do what their god tells them (so long as it's to their benefit). I try to make it so every Drow is guilty of at least one of the seven sins. Drizzt: Envy, Pride. Jaia: Greed, Sloth. This once again goes against the pure moral fiber of a paladin. They are strong, greedy, cautious, and traitors. They will strike as soon as the opportunity presents itself (They catch you off your guard, get your defenses up, sneak up from behind you), they will turn their back on, well, almost anything for money, they never trust without good reason and prior experience, and, if there is any reason to, they will betray anyone they are connected with, so long as they end up better in the end. That goes against at least two of the examples in the second sentence. For the "willing to do", the parenthesis explains my reasoning.
Zanan 08-21-07, 09:10 AM	Zanan, you can have whatever opinions you want regarding FR and Dragon material. Just don't state it like it's absolute canon - since it's obvious here that canon isn't clearly defined. and @ Lord Karsus too ... I don't state my opinion as being absolute canon, I just tell it as it is. And it is pretty baffling that you come up with this in a topic which is probably the one detailed best in the sources - old and new. At this moment and time, it is you who actually try to push your opinion on a Dragon-created deity for the Core Seldarine into the FR. When we exactly know which deities belong to the FR Seldarine throughout its D&D existence and which do not. And, if you care to notice, I simply state that unless a FR source or the publishing source itself says that a deity exists within Realmspace, it does not officially belong to the setting - as it has a closed pantheon, even though it does indeed included deities found in other settings as well. That's how it was always handled officially. Whether you or I like it or not. BTW, dunno whether you've heard the news, but some high-one at WotC is really in love with the Goathead (and its glorious mega miniature) and it will even make its way onto the cover of the 4E MM. If it wasn't so dire a news, one could just laugh at that.
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 09:59 AM	Third reason: Purely personal. Paladins are moral, courageous, and willing to do what their god tells them. (Even CG) Drow are immoral (at the least), courageous (when the time calls for it), and willing to do what their god tells them (so long as it's to their benefit). I try to make it so every Drow is guilty of at least one of the seven sins. Drizzt: Envy, Pride. Jaia: Greed, Sloth. This once again goes against the pure moral fiber of a paladin. They are strong, greedy, cautious, and traitors. They will strike as soon as the opportunity presents itself (They catch you off your guard, get your defenses up, sneak up from behind you), they will turn their back on, well, almost anything for money, they never trust without good reason and prior experience, and, if there is any reason to, they will betray anyone they are connected with, so long as they end up better in the end. That goes against at least two of the examples in the second sentence. For the "willing to do", the parenthesis explains my reasoning. -This brings up the entire Nature versus Nurture argument, which is at the heart of the issue (somewhat), and has no concrete answer. Are Drow created "evil", or is it society that makes them "evil"? Can a Drow be raised in such circumstances such that he/she is not "evil", or is the thing that makes him/her evil inherent, and he/she will be "evil" regardless? -Concerning Drow, I am under the notion that it is society that makes them "evil", and not something inherent to them. In other words, I agree with the nurture argument. and @ Lord Karsus too ... I don't state my opinion as being absolute canon, I just tell it as it is. -Don't drag me into that. I said what I said- and I continue to stand behind what I said with righteous fervor- but I didn't type what was quoted above. At this moment and time, it is you who actually try to push your opinion on a Dragon-created deity for the Core Seldarine into the FR. -Again, at the time, there was no such thing as a Core Seldarine, a Forgotten Realms Seldarine, a Dragonlance Seldarine, and so on. There was ONE Seldarine, containing the same members, that existed throughout the Multiverse. Thus, since the added members of the Seldarine existed before the Great Wheel Unified Cosmology was changed (in regards to the Realms), it would only make sense to have them grandfathered in, regardless about how you feel on this particular issue. When we exactly know which deities belong to the FR Seldarine throughout its D&D existence and which do not. -See above. And, if you care to notice, I simply state that unless a FR source or the publishing source itself says that a deity exists within Realmspace, it does not officially belong to the setting - as it has a closed pantheon, even though it does indeed included deities found in other settings as well. -Conversely, there is nothing anywhere stating that these deities do not exist. As we all know, the snippet in Faiths and Pantheons saying that all other deities that do not appear in said book do not exist (any more) in the Realms was incorrect, and has since been "revoked". -As has been demonstrated many times, in many places, in many situations, a lack of evidence is not the evidence of lacking. In other words, just because nothing is seen/mentioned doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. -Take Goliaths (a Core D&D race, mind you), for instance. Until recently, they never had any mentions in any FR lore. Did they exist? Yes, yes they did. They were retconned to have always existed in the Realms.
Straploknight 08-21-07, 10:20 AM	OMG, you should be around here when the women get into a guy-bashing session. They can make the priestesses of Lloth seem like Sisters of Mercy where guys are concerned. I swear if they start in on another big one, I'm starting a "Save the Males" movement. Hmmmmm.... I dunno about that, female bashing sessions by thier male counterparts can be pretty tough to.
Shiftkitty 08-21-07, 10:33 AM	Hmmmmm.... I dunno about that, female bashing sessions by thier male counterparts can be pretty tough to. Wow, I've never heard a female-bashing debate (probably because I'm female and the guys are polite enough to clam up when I come around, a courtesy the women I work with don't extend to the guys). I could never get into guy-bashing. I don't get along with very many women because of it. That's cool, though, because I've always enjoyed the company of the opposite sex. (No tuna-fests for me!) RE: Drow nature vs. nurture Based on various D&D sources, I've decided that it's nurture more than nature, although nature can creep in by means of selective breeding. Bitterness and vows of revenge after the Crown Wars led the drow to select ruthless mates more suited for the long term goal of once again rising to reclaim what they lost from the surface. Brain chemicals being what they are, the emotionally volatile are given preferred breeding priveleges, which gives that chemical combination a greater chance for growing and spreading, but not a guarantee. Just as some humans are decent, honest folk if left to themselves, some drow are decent, honest folk if left to themselves. A drow child raised outside of drow society has a slightly better chance than a human of being "born bad", but if the society encourages controlling that behavior as opposed to exploiting it, you could realistically raise a drow to be an aggressive, but not necessarily violent, adult. (I chose humans because they are closer in nature to the typical drow mindset than surface elves, IMO.) I could go on with this, but I have to get to work, ugh!:yuck:
Zanan 08-21-07, 12:09 PM	-Take Goliaths (a Core D&D race, mind you), for instance. Until recently, they never had any mentions in any FR lore. Did they exist? Yes, yes they did. They were retconned to have always existed in the Realms. I will only take on this, as it is all that is needed. The authors decided that the new race shall be included in the Realms, as can be various new monsters et al. But that has been done in FR books. And if they deem to have that deity belonging to the FR Seldarine, they can include him in any FR source (or could have said that in the Dragon itself) - no problem. By merely existing somewhere in a Dragon or Core rulebook does not mean he by default exists in a special setting too. BTW, that quote regarding F&P and the various deities not listed ... and Rich Bakers remark: I assumed you fully understood what he referred to. It was no open invitation to everything out there, but an acknowledgment that quite a number of deities or powers of monsters et al previously listed in FR sources (such as the F&A series - which does indeed mentions various Monster Mythology things as being part of the Realms' cosmology, Blood Queen et al) had ben wrongfully excluded. Anyway, as it stands, DD as well as F&P give you a list of the FR Seldarine, completed by PGtF. There are no links to other worlds' Seldarines, as much as there are no links to other worlds' Dark Seldarines and deities like Zinzerena or Keptolo over there. Unless you can find me something saying otherwise, of course. Anyway, if that player wants his LG or LN in there, no problem. Who knows what the Wizards are up to anyways, given the news filtering through for the 4E FR ...
JaiaDrottsingr 08-21-07, 01:48 PM	-This brings up the entire Nature versus Nurture argument, which is at the heart of the issue (somewhat), and has no concrete answer. Are Drow created "evil", or is it society that makes them "evil"? Can a Drow be raised in such circumstances such that he/she is not "evil", or is the thing that makes him/her evil inherent, and he/she will be "evil" regardless? -Concerning Drow, I am under the notion that it is society that makes them "evil", and not something inherent to them. In other words, I agree with the nurture argument. I agree with both on some extent. Drizzt was abused as a child, had an experience with real family love, was tolerated in his mistakes, and was allowed to be himself. A personality shapes and grows both with the way you're treated and how you are. Drow are chaotic, and wonderfully so. A lawful good drow is based on something so dramatically different from his society (if raised in the UD), nature (Personality is hereditary, mind you), and probably the way he was treated (Nuture wins there.).
Shiftkitty 08-21-07, 03:09 PM	Regarding Drow Paladins Is there anything like a "Dark Paladin" (a name I made up, I don't recall seeing it used anyplace else, but I could be wrong)? Not a Blackguard, who is a fallen paladin and is evil by nature, but I was thinking along the lines of someone who is generally shunned by their culture or society, but does the right thing (according to his or her independent interpretation of their chosen god) without seeking approval from anyone. They what they do because they believe it's right, and it often generally is. I figure they'd learn their faith independently because, being outcasts, not even a church of their chosen deity would take them in, but their faith holds true regardless of the acceptance of mortal society, and maybe their deity is sufficiently impressed by this faith to test them from time to time and grant a spell or two. Maybe a drow paladin of Corellon could make it his mission to atone for the sufferings of the surface dwellers at the hands of the drow, the elves in particular, and, as CL is the protector of the elven race, takes it on his own to be the mortal arm of Corellon, riding to the assistance of elves when needed. He won't shun an attempt at friendship, but doesn't care if they like him or not. They can spit on him all they like, he's not going to sit around like Drizzt hoping for acceptance. He takes his comfort in his deity and his mission and knows that his deeds alone will redeem him when his race has been run.
Lord Karsus 08-21-07, 06:53 PM	Drow are chaotic, and wonderfully so. -Apparently, they are Neutral Evil now. Go figure.
JaiaDrottsingr 08-21-07, 07:04 PM	-Apparently, they are Neutral Evil now. Go figure. That completely destroys my love for the Underdark. Drow, not so much. More workable around, but less evil. Now only most of them, not all of them, are guilty of an SDS.
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 07:40 PM	Regarding Drow Paladins Is there anything like a "Dark Paladin" (a name I made up, I don't recall seeing it used anyplace else, but I could be wrong)?1e had Anti-Paladins - I know, I ran one for years, and got him all the way up to lev. 18 (my highest character ever). God, I miss those days. I believe you are looking for the Paladin of Tyranny, which appeared in a Dragon article, or UA, or both; I'm not sure. Back to the discussion - Zanan, several of the gods were mentioned in association with the Realms - most notably the two deities of the Snow Elves (who, strangely enough, have not been verified in canon, just their dieites). In fact, one was supposedly an enemy of Auril - you can't get much more 'Realmsy' then that. ;)
Shiftkitty 08-21-07, 09:58 PM	That completely destroys my love for the Underdark. Drow, not so much. More workable around, but less evil. Now only most of them, not all of them, are guilty of an SDS. Ah, you can live in my game. I keep them chaotic. Most are chaotic neutral as they re-evaluate the gods themselves (the drow have gotten quite cocky as a race IMW), but they still have to fight to keep their impulsiveness in check while the longer term plan unfolds. They still slip from time to time and get evil on somebody's ass now and then, but for the most part, it's CN.
Zanan 08-22-07, 04:24 AM	That completely destroys my love for the Underdark. Drow, not so much. More workable around, but less evil. Now only most of them, not all of them, are guilty of an SDS. Well, to work as a society, drow more or less had to be NE or LE - given their utterly theocratic and militaristic outline. CE was fine for their deity/-ies, or their priestesses and necromancers, of course. Obviously, Drow of the Underdark goes a long way to explain the general NE alignment away again - for whatever reason - and explain to us that drow are actually all CE still. But thank Lolth, that book is a Core one (i.e. written on the Greyhawk drow) and their drow bear only little if any resemblance to those of Faerûn. As for dark paladins, 4E will apparently provide somesuch, Unearthed Arcana already has in the Paladin of Freedom (Chaotic), Paladin of Slaughter (CE), and Paladin of Tyranny (LE).
JaiaDrottsingr 08-22-07, 09:16 AM	Well, to work as a society, drow more or less had to be NE or LE - given their utterly theocratic and militaristic outline. CE was fine for their deity/-ies, or their priestesses and necromancers, of course. Obviously, Drow of the Underdark goes a long way to explain the general NE alignment away again - for whatever reason - and explain to us that drow are actually all CE still. But thank Lolth, that book is a Core one (i.e. written on the Greyhawk drow) and their drow bear only little if any resemblance to those of Faerûn. As for dark paladins, 4E will apparently provide somesuch, Unearthed Arcana already has in the Paladin of Freedom (Chaotic), Paladin of Slaughter (CE), and Paladin of Tyranny (LE). The reason I am most disappointed with that alignment is because I have a theory I've already posted about, and the alignment change shatters that. @ Shiftkitty: No thanks.
StAbrevas 08-26-07, 04:23 AM	I suppose I should be darned to heck and back then, for redeeming a faithless and lost drow and showing him the ways of Tyr. :(
Shiftkitty 08-26-07, 04:23 PM	Then I shall be "darned" (that's a sewing term ,right?) right along with you! I like the drow too much to give up on them! I believe they are more the victims of nurture rather than nature, and an infant drow raised by a LG influence could easily become LG.
Duedaine 08-29-07, 12:28 PM	I didn't read the whole thread so this might have been said, but but if this gold elf is so Nazi, then why would he even save the drow much less raise it as his own?
Shiftkitty 08-29-07, 03:17 PM	Because such descriptions are only generalizations. Even the RW Nazis had some good eggs among them who risked their lives even as they donned the uniforms of the SS. They were a handful of doctors who would sweep through neighborhoods after the "pogroms" and render what medical aid they could while remaining as anonymous as possible. Those few who got caught were executed without ever revealing the names of their comrades. Their story survived only because of those they had helped. I think I read about them in a book called "Anton the Dove Fancier", or else it was "The Nazi Doctors". Anyway, all the while these guys were dutiful nazis otherwise.
Lord Karsus 08-29-07, 03:42 PM	-Nazi doctors don't exactly have the best reputation...
Shiftkitty 08-29-07, 09:57 PM	No they don't. I can't imagine anybody named "Joseph Mengele" going into med school these days, although I believe Hitler Tool & Die is still a company in Germany. But the point is that even among a generally evil bunch like the Nazis, there are still exceptions to the generalizations. So if this sun-elf is an otherwise goose-stepping elven nazi, maybe something about the drow kid hit a nerve. Suppose the sun elf was an orphan. If the drow kid is also an orphan, maybe that one common thread transcends all other barriers in spite of what the sun elf may be trying to convince himself of. **No! He's a stinking drow! Die, drow scum! Die!** (Little drow baby looks up at him with huge eyes) "Okay. One more game of peekaboo, then you have to die." (Drow baby giggles over game) "Oops, somebody needs a nap before he gets too wound up. Okay, you die tomorrow." (Gets squirming little drow baby into Spiderman sleepers, sings "Itsy Bitsy Spider" as a lullaby, drow baby sucks thumb in his sleep. Sun elf goes all mushy.) Etc., etc., etc.
Zandilar 09-01-07, 09:51 AM	Heya, **No! He's a stinking drow! Die, drow scum! Die!** (Little drow baby looks up at him with huge eyes) "Okay. One more game of peekaboo, then you have to die." (Drow baby giggles over game) "Oops, somebody needs a nap before he gets too wound up. Okay, you die tomorrow." (Gets squirming little drow baby into Spiderman sleepers, sings "Itsy Bitsy Spider" as a lullaby, drow baby sucks thumb in his sleep. Sun elf goes all mushy.) Etc., etc., etc. Awwwwwwww! :rofl: :D
Lord Karsus 09-01-07, 09:17 PM	"Okay. One more game of peekaboo, then you have to die." -That's just a great quote. :)
Shiftkitty 09-01-07, 10:12 PM	OMG, I totally did not think of how that line sounded all on it's own! Now I want it on a t-shirt.
MarkHall 09-02-07, 12:56 AM	**No! He's a stinking drow! Die, drow scum! Die!** (Little drow baby looks up at him with huge eyes) "Okay. One more game of peekaboo, then you have to die." (Drow baby giggles over game) "Oops, somebody needs a nap before he gets too wound up. Okay, you die tomorrow." (Gets squirming little drow baby into Spiderman sleepers, sings "Itsy Bitsy Spider" as a lullaby, drow baby sucks thumb in his sleep. Sun elf goes all mushy.) Etc., etc., etc. "Goodnight, baby, you're cute, I'll most likely kill you in the morning."
Mulan Rogue 09-02-07, 05:27 PM	nm
GothicDan 09-02-07, 06:19 PM	See, I dislike babies, and am a total Germano-Phile. *Displays dyed-blond hair and blue contacts.* I'd make a proper gay Sun Elf Nazi. Stinkin' drow babies.
Shiftkitty 09-02-07, 07:38 PM	gay Sun Elf Nazi Now there's a demographic you don't hear from very often! Meh, I'll cast my lot with the drow. They're so gosh-darned loveable!
GothicDan 09-02-07, 08:11 PM	Except to me. Give me some Kimil Nimesin lovin'. ;)
Shiftkitty 09-03-07, 01:53 AM	:heehee
DarkSongKnight 09-03-07, 03:45 AM	Except to me. Give me some Kimil Nimesin lovin'. ;) Kymil Nimesin... And people wonder why the sun elves are viewed as evil. :rofl: I think sun elves would make great paladins of Corellon Larethian, especially with the Lawful bent. Though not a "paladin" in name. Perhaps more like a righteous (and arrogant) protector of elvenkind's most ancient traditions and most sacred rituals. Oh wait, that role has been filled. Elven High Mages. :rolleyes: But a drow paladin of Corellon? Well, I suppose if you ruled paladins of Corellon exist in the first place, it wouldn't be that far a stretch. You'd have to find a very lenient surface elf to raise him though, and certainly not a follower of Shevarash. Also, Evermeet doesn't allow drow, not even followers of Eilistraee. It'd be best to have him raised in a small elven community, or perhaps even by a single elf all by his lonesome. Makes me think of how Merlin raised Arthur, instilling him with values. Also, that way, he wouldn't receive any stigma from others until he went out on his own, and his own beliefs and such were already established within him.
Shiftkitty 09-03-07, 12:44 PM	Re: Paladins Couldn't a paladin be dedicated to an ideal or a philosophy embodied by a deity rather than the deity himself? In that manner, an elf dedicated to, say, the protection and overall welfare of elvenkind could be considered a paladin of Corellon. I liken it to the opposite of something I encounter here where I live, in which some of the christians (thankfully not all) will worship and praise the living daylights out of Jesus, but pay only lip service to his teachings. They'd rather worship the man. In the case of the drow, he could be furthering the aims of Corellon by living by his philosophies and ideals and maybe trying to atone for the past crimes of his people.
GothicDan 09-03-07, 12:46 PM	Divine casters of ideals do not exist in the Realms. :) That being said, Corellon does not embody ANY ideals related to Paladins. Not only is he CG, but Elven culture is incredibly far removed from the vaguely Judeo-Christian roots that inspired the Paladin class. I still find Bladesingers to be the best fit for Elven 'Paladins' - perhaps those with a bit of divine spellcasting ability, too, similar to the Knights of the Weave.
Shiftkitty 09-03-07, 01:15 PM	Ah, good point about paladins. I interpret them differently for game purposes, but if you're playing by the books, yeah, I see your point.
Crivic 09-05-07, 07:25 AM	just make him a bladesinger
SmartPaladin 09-05-07, 08:54 AM	just make him a bladesinger Drow can't be Bladesinger's. Nor can Half-Drow. I'm with the purists on that one. Though speaking of Sun Elves, I had been toying around with a Sun Elf Duskblade of Shevarash. One of the sole survivor of a Drow surface raid. The best part? I fully intended, in my head anyway, to have ether a human woman, or a Drow female to get an oath out of him that he would guard, protect, and raise their child. Though I was never sure about what race the parent should be, a human woman sounds like it'd make more sense after all. The child, I had planed to be a Half-Drow. I kind of laugh evilly at that thought, something about me just wanting to point and say "See? Shevarash has a sense of humor!" :P Though oddly enough, it would probably be Labelas Enoreth who would set that in motion. Why isn't that Elven deity lawful anyway? He's always struck me as an Elven Monk.
DarkSongKnight 09-05-07, 11:11 AM	Divine casters of ideals do not exist in the Realms. :) But aren't deities ideals personified? ;)
GothicDan 09-05-07, 01:37 PM	Nope!
DarkSongKnight 09-05-07, 01:52 PM	Oh really? That's odd... I could've sworn that deities represented the ideals that their faithful held... Or maybe the faithful try to bring forth what the deity sees as ideal, eh?
GothicDan 09-05-07, 05:59 PM	Ha. Foolish knave!
Crivic 09-05-07, 10:33 PM	true drow cant be bladesingers, but it can be argued if a drow is redeemed and back in the grace of Corellon, they would technically be an elf again, makes more sense then a paladin drow
DarkSongKnight 09-06-07, 12:03 AM	The closest thing to a paladin I can see any elven deity sponsoring, would be a Cleric/Fighter/Divine Champion. Corellon does have dark elven priests, and theres nothing that would bar a drow from any of the other classes there. Still, the thought of a blond, muscular gold elf in shining mithril full-plate is just... *sigh* I will certainly have to draw that someday...
MarkHall 09-06-07, 01:13 AM	Oh really? That's odd... I could've sworn that deities represented the ideals that their faithful held... Or maybe the faithful try to bring forth what the deity sees as ideal, eh? Friend of mine had trouble with this, too (actually came up in reference to Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but applied when I brought him into D&D). Gods are not the ideals they espouse. They are not the personifications of them. Rather, they represent them, and draw strength from them. If you killed Kelemvor, and somehow destroyed the death portfolio across Realmspace, you wouldn't stop people from dying... it would simply be that no deity would represent that idea, or would gain power from it. Similarly, the destruction of Lathander wouldn't prevent birth... it would just mean that no deity directly represented that aspect of life (indirectly, yes; Shialla, as a goddess of fertility, for example). Now, WHO holds the portfolio influences a bit about how things happen in the Realms, but that's because they're given stewardship over natural features. Mystra has stewardship over the Weave; without her, magic would exist, but it would be wild and erratic. If she wished, she could exclude any evil person or god from accessing the Weave... it's within her power as steward of the Weave. But her responsibility goes beyond her alignment. Kelemvor and Myrkul have both been gods of the dead. Myrkul reveled in it, seeking to expand his domain and embrace necromancy. Kelemvor is only interested in doing his job, and making sure that things proceed as they should. Same job... different people.
Shiftkitty 09-06-07, 08:25 AM	true drow cant be bladesingers, but it can be argued if a drow is redeemed and back in the grace of Corellon, they would technically be an elf again, makes more sense then a paladin drow According to the Arcane Age supplements, "drow" was a corruption of "dhaerow", which was an elven insult meaning "face of shadow", "traitor", and one other phrase I can't remember right now. "Heart of night" or something like that. In that sense, the drow never stopped being elves. Heck, after reading the Arcane Age book about the elves, I came to see the drow as victims rather than villains, especially the Miyeritar, who wanted only their independence. As for the Illithyri, well, I'm suspicious of their story as it's written apparently from the POV of the sun elves, and we all know what happens when the victors write the history books. Then there was the problem of every dark elf, even those who chose not to fight, being banished. Let's hear it for justice, eh? If you take that approach, I can see an avenger class cropping up from this. I don't have all of the crunch and fluff books, so I don't know if there is a class already dedicated to, say, righting a past wrong. As for their continued aggressiveness, there does come a time when you just say "Screw it. You think we're evil? Okay, we'll show you evil." Then, after a lifetime of propaganda right back at the surface elves, it just sort of becomes a lifestyle, living for spite. OT: Is there anyplace besides the FR campaign book that has info on Jezz the Lame? I'm looking for more backstory.
Elven Avenger 09-06-07, 11:57 AM	The third meaning of Dhaerow is Heart of Night.
JaiaDrottsingr 09-06-07, 04:53 PM	The closest thing to a paladin I can see any elven deity sponsoring, would be a Cleric/Fighter/Divine Champion. Corellon does have dark elven priests, and theres nothing that would bar a drow from any of the other classes there. I always played the drow CL Clerics as they were only there because Elistraee only accepts female clerics, so their religious options are made extremely limited. It's kinda like the "Since-I-can't-do-that-over-there-I'll-do-this-over-here," route that toddlers and compulsive, on-toppish (NII) people like to take.
GothicDan 09-10-07, 10:06 PM	Still, the thought of a blond, muscular gold elf in shining mithril full-plate is just... *sigh* I will certainly have to draw that someday... I just saw this. DarkSong... Sign me up for a print. ;) Rawr.
MarkHall 09-10-07, 11:44 PM	Still, the thought of a blond, muscular gold elf in shining mithril full-plate is just... *sigh* I will certainly have to draw that someday... LOL! Muscular gold elf! That's a good one! :ROFL:
GothicDan 09-11-07, 12:26 AM	Gold Elves are statistically as strong as Dwarves or Gnomes or Humans. *nods.* And of course, Wild Elves are STRONGER than all of the above.
Shiftkitty 09-11-07, 08:27 AM	When I think of the Wild Elves, I always think of Wendy Pini's Wolfriders. They were drawn as pretty muscular (except for Strongbow, who had the typical slender build but wasn't lacking in athleticism), and, given their environment and lifestyle, it made a lot of sense to me.