Duels of Honor in Waterdeep? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Duels of Honor in Waterdeep? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Berzerker_prime
07-19-05, 05:33 PM Does anyone know if they would be allowed? Or would the watch frown on that kind of thing and chase it outside the city?

Is there any precedent for a duel of honor in the Realms at all, come to think of it? Any dueling code?

Berz (who thinks about such things more than she should).
Kuje31
07-19-05, 05:42 PM December 10, 2004: Hello, all. Ed replies to The Blind Ranger:

Dueling is widespread across the Realms, especially within the nobility of a realm (it’s usually discouraged or expressly forbidden ‘across borders’ because of the danger of causing family feuds that all too easily become wars between realms), and even (in the past, though some ultra-conservative zealots still cling to beliefs that dueling is fine with the deity, merely disallowed by “decadent superiors desiring to maintain their lofty ranks”) within certain priesthoods (Bhaal, Hoar, Myrkul, Shar).

Among commoners, because of the possibility of unrest (and particularly in ports, where trade could be permanently disrupted if the place acquires a ‘too dangerous to venture there’ reputation) dueling is usually illegal. This means no duels in public, not no duelling; persons having disputes go outside the city or town walls, to places where patrols from the city or town won’t see them (or meet inside private clubs [who may use such combats as entertainments for their members] or warehouses, by night) and duel there. There are even some guilds that formally specify duels as a means to settle certain disputes.

Honour is viewed very differently from place to place and race to race: an orc duel is almost always a duel to the death, by any means (there’s nothing considered “unfair,” including goading bystanders to take part), whereas a duel between elves is more often until “first blood” or “yielding” or “four touches” rather than death (although in cases of hatred, death of course often occurs). Many human duels between nobility must be conducted in the presence of royalty or a particular court official, who governs the rules of the duel and will often specify that a duelist who slays an opponent will be executed, so the duel MUST be to some lesser defeat.

To most commoners (especially farmers), dueling is viewed as vicious stupidity, a waste of life (hands that could be put to work). Brigands and thieves are to be killed or ‘run off’ (pursued out of the district, with captured thieves often being forehead-branded ‘THIEF’ and/or having hands broken so they won’t be nimble-fingered for a long, long time), but everyone else is simply beaten up to settle scores - - in other words, there aren’t duels so much as frequent fistfights.

Beowulf is quite correct in his partial listing of historical real-world reasons for dueling, and Lashan has put his finger on not just a Mulmaster example, but the general principle I use when crafting customs in the Realms for places where dueling is ‘viewed as a public sport:’ local authorities are always involved in adjudicating the duels. Again, this to make sure things don’t get out of hand and become a general street brawl that could grow into mob violence or a wider uprising of the local downtrodden (in other words, said local officials will have large and well-armed bodyguards with them who are under orders to quell violence right away with, well, violence. :} )

As an extension of Beowulf’s examples, there have been instances (in the past during the elves-vs.-dragons struggle for early Cormyr, and in Tethyr and the Vilhon region, as well as others that don’t spring to mind just now) of champions battling each other to decide something that would otherwise plunge their peoples into a war. (For such contests to truly settle matters, of course, both sides must REALLY believe in, and abide by, principles of honour.)

There are no universally-accepted standards for dueling, but usually in the Realms it’s one-on-one fighting, with adjudicators but NO ‘seconds’ (in other words, one being battles another being; both may have supporters watching, but those supporters will not be expected to fight under any circumstances). The contest will be under rules (particularly governing the ending: yeild, wounding, first blood, or death) decided by local law and enforced by the adjudicators (often a local priest, if there’s no Watch commander, garrison commander, or judge handy), or decided by the adjudicator, or agreed-upon by the two duelists in the presence of the adjudicator. In most of the Heartlands duels tend to be: one hand weapon (usually a short sword) plus a dagger, and light armor, or: daggers only, with duelists both stripped to the waist. Some sadistic clubs customarily blindfold duelists for extra fun, and others drug them to make the duel slow, with single weapon-strikes less likely to be instantly fatal. Smokepowder and any sort of missile weapon duels are almost unheard-of (and would be deemed ‘not really dueling’ by most folk of the Realms, I’d say), and yes, a public challenge (usually by the hurling down of a glove or gauntlet, complete with SHORT public oration (one ro two lines identifying the complaint and the complainer, plus perhaps an insult) is the usual manner in which formal duels (especially between nobles) are announced.

Please be aware that in most places in the Realms there’s no dishonour at all in refusing a duel from someone of different rank (i.e. youngest knight or baronet who challenges an aging duke would be sneered at by all, not just his intended foe, but if the duke WANTED to ‘teach the young puppy a lesson,’ he’d be perfectly free to do so).

So saith Ed. Who’s got plenty of Realmslore requests to wade through, but also these little things called novels . . .
love to all,
THO
Berzerker_prime
07-19-05, 06:08 PM Wow! Thanks bunches for all that! That's way more info than I was expecting!

Le hannon. :bow:

Berz.
Kuje31
07-19-05, 06:14 PM There's a few other misc replies about dueling from Ed but they are mostly about wizard duels. More on wizard dueling can also be found in Magic of Faerun in Magefair section.
theonlygolux
07-20-05, 04:59 AM I would say that if a challenge was laid down in Waterdeep and accepted the duel would almost certainly be arranged outside the city walls so that the city guard could not come running and interrupt it. Otherwise, perhaps if the PCs can make it into the City of the Dead, it adds atmosphere, and plenty of gravestones to jump over and around.
prototype00
07-20-05, 09:08 AM Not to gainsay either Kuje or Ed, but to quote my newest FR acquisition, i.e. City of Splendours,

Duels (for reasons of specific, unprovoked injury) are legal only in specific places, but must be marshaled by a member of the Watch or a Magister. Lords, Magisters, guard and watch members, and Heralds are exempt from challenges, and the Lords forbid most duels involving heads of guilds, noble houses, or priesthoods. Most importantly, duels are rarely to the death

So it appears dueling is legal within city limits. The religious ban stands however.

prototype00
Kuje31
07-20-05, 12:15 PM Not to gainsay either Kuje or Ed, but to quote my newest FR acquisition, i.e. City of Splendours,

So it appears dueling is legal within city limits. The religious ban stands however.

prototype00

I don't see how this conflicts with Ed's reply..... Since he said there is "no universal standard." So, that means each nation would have different rules but what he posted is generally this is how it is.
ClobberinTime
07-20-05, 05:34 PM Well what the heck happens in that damned giant arena they have in Waterdeep (no I haven't bought it yet, grumble grumble)
Kuje31
07-20-05, 05:52 PM Well what the heck happens in that damned giant arena they have in Waterdeep (no I haven't bought it yet, grumble grumble)

They use it for tournaments, festivals, public announcements, etc.....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Berzerker_prime 07-19-05, 05:33 PM	Does anyone know if they would be allowed? Or would the watch frown on that kind of thing and chase it outside the city? Is there any precedent for a duel of honor in the Realms at all, come to think of it? Any dueling code? Berz (who thinks about such things more than she should).
Kuje31 07-19-05, 05:42 PM	December 10, 2004: Hello, all. Ed replies to The Blind Ranger: Dueling is widespread across the Realms, especially within the nobility of a realm (it’s usually discouraged or expressly forbidden ‘across borders’ because of the danger of causing family feuds that all too easily become wars between realms), and even (in the past, though some ultra-conservative zealots still cling to beliefs that dueling is fine with the deity, merely disallowed by “decadent superiors desiring to maintain their lofty ranks”) within certain priesthoods (Bhaal, Hoar, Myrkul, Shar). Among commoners, because of the possibility of unrest (and particularly in ports, where trade could be permanently disrupted if the place acquires a ‘too dangerous to venture there’ reputation) dueling is usually illegal. This means no duels in public, not no duelling; persons having disputes go outside the city or town walls, to places where patrols from the city or town won’t see them (or meet inside private clubs [who may use such combats as entertainments for their members] or warehouses, by night) and duel there. There are even some guilds that formally specify duels as a means to settle certain disputes. Honour is viewed very differently from place to place and race to race: an orc duel is almost always a duel to the death, by any means (there’s nothing considered “unfair,” including goading bystanders to take part), whereas a duel between elves is more often until “first blood” or “yielding” or “four touches” rather than death (although in cases of hatred, death of course often occurs). Many human duels between nobility must be conducted in the presence of royalty or a particular court official, who governs the rules of the duel and will often specify that a duelist who slays an opponent will be executed, so the duel MUST be to some lesser defeat. To most commoners (especially farmers), dueling is viewed as vicious stupidity, a waste of life (hands that could be put to work). Brigands and thieves are to be killed or ‘run off’ (pursued out of the district, with captured thieves often being forehead-branded ‘THIEF’ and/or having hands broken so they won’t be nimble-fingered for a long, long time), but everyone else is simply beaten up to settle scores - - in other words, there aren’t duels so much as frequent fistfights. Beowulf is quite correct in his partial listing of historical real-world reasons for dueling, and Lashan has put his finger on not just a Mulmaster example, but the general principle I use when crafting customs in the Realms for places where dueling is ‘viewed as a public sport:’ local authorities are always involved in adjudicating the duels. Again, this to make sure things don’t get out of hand and become a general street brawl that could grow into mob violence or a wider uprising of the local downtrodden (in other words, said local officials will have large and well-armed bodyguards with them who are under orders to quell violence right away with, well, violence. :} ) As an extension of Beowulf’s examples, there have been instances (in the past during the elves-vs.-dragons struggle for early Cormyr, and in Tethyr and the Vilhon region, as well as others that don’t spring to mind just now) of champions battling each other to decide something that would otherwise plunge their peoples into a war. (For such contests to truly settle matters, of course, both sides must REALLY believe in, and abide by, principles of honour.) There are no universally-accepted standards for dueling, but usually in the Realms it’s one-on-one fighting, with adjudicators but NO ‘seconds’ (in other words, one being battles another being; both may have supporters watching, but those supporters will not be expected to fight under any circumstances). The contest will be under rules (particularly governing the ending: yeild, wounding, first blood, or death) decided by local law and enforced by the adjudicators (often a local priest, if there’s no Watch commander, garrison commander, or judge handy), or decided by the adjudicator, or agreed-upon by the two duelists in the presence of the adjudicator. In most of the Heartlands duels tend to be: one hand weapon (usually a short sword) plus a dagger, and light armor, or: daggers only, with duelists both stripped to the waist. Some sadistic clubs customarily blindfold duelists for extra fun, and others drug them to make the duel slow, with single weapon-strikes less likely to be instantly fatal. Smokepowder and any sort of missile weapon duels are almost unheard-of (and would be deemed ‘not really dueling’ by most folk of the Realms, I’d say), and yes, a public challenge (usually by the hurling down of a glove or gauntlet, complete with SHORT public oration (one ro two lines identifying the complaint and the complainer, plus perhaps an insult) is the usual manner in which formal duels (especially between nobles) are announced. Please be aware that in most places in the Realms there’s no dishonour at all in refusing a duel from someone of different rank (i.e. youngest knight or baronet who challenges an aging duke would be sneered at by all, not just his intended foe, but if the duke WANTED to ‘teach the young puppy a lesson,’ he’d be perfectly free to do so). So saith Ed. Who’s got plenty of Realmslore requests to wade through, but also these little things called novels . . . love to all, THO
Berzerker_prime 07-19-05, 06:08 PM	Wow! Thanks bunches for all that! That's way more info than I was expecting! Le hannon. :bow: Berz.
Kuje31 07-19-05, 06:14 PM	There's a few other misc replies about dueling from Ed but they are mostly about wizard duels. More on wizard dueling can also be found in Magic of Faerun in Magefair section.
theonlygolux 07-20-05, 04:59 AM	I would say that if a challenge was laid down in Waterdeep and accepted the duel would almost certainly be arranged outside the city walls so that the city guard could not come running and interrupt it. Otherwise, perhaps if the PCs can make it into the City of the Dead, it adds atmosphere, and plenty of gravestones to jump over and around.
prototype00 07-20-05, 09:08 AM	Not to gainsay either Kuje or Ed, but to quote my newest FR acquisition, i.e. City of Splendours, Duels (for reasons of specific, unprovoked injury) are legal only in specific places, but must be marshaled by a member of the Watch or a Magister. Lords, Magisters, guard and watch members, and Heralds are exempt from challenges, and the Lords forbid most duels involving heads of guilds, noble houses, or priesthoods. Most importantly, duels are rarely to the death So it appears dueling is legal within city limits. The religious ban stands however. prototype00
Kuje31 07-20-05, 12:15 PM	Not to gainsay either Kuje or Ed, but to quote my newest FR acquisition, i.e. City of Splendours, So it appears dueling is legal within city limits. The religious ban stands however. prototype00 I don't see how this conflicts with Ed's reply..... Since he said there is "no universal standard." So, that means each nation would have different rules but what he posted is generally this is how it is.
ClobberinTime 07-20-05, 05:34 PM	Well what the heck happens in that damned giant arena they have in Waterdeep (no I haven't bought it yet, grumble grumble)
Kuje31 07-20-05, 05:52 PM	Well what the heck happens in that damned giant arena they have in Waterdeep (no I haven't bought it yet, grumble grumble) They use it for tournaments, festivals, public announcements, etc.....