Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Faraer 11-17-06, 04:47 PM	I think the popularity of elves over dwarves owes a lot to superficial, infantilist modern popular culture which extolls slimness, youthfulness, bodily and facial hairlessness and a particular kind of glamorous beauty over hard work, craft, stamina and wisdom. But whether or not a long line of dwarf-themed books is viable, I'd be very surprised if the demand isn't there for at least one. And we have reason to think one may be in the works. As I've said before, I think the norm for Realms books should be adventuring companies, not single stars with supporting characters.It was not so long ago that people's lives consisted of work and nothing else. Now that we managed to move away form it, people don't want to do it again in their fantasies. People usually don't have fantasies like: "Damn, I'd have loved to be one of those guys who worked 14 hours a day in a coal-mine until they dropped dead with 30". And even today, many people still have to work more than half their waking hours, with only a couple of hours remaining for leasure activities. It's only natural that noone wants to spend thse leasure hours pretending to be a guy who works most of his waking hours and immensely enjoying it. Another thing elves have going is their social grace. They have manners. People like that. Dwarves are often depicted as socially inept, bad-mannered brutes, nothing you aspire to in our times (especially since that will make it harder to get a decent job).As you say, people's lives are still dominated by work, often working longer hours than was usual a few decades ago, and in fact doing work that industrialization and computers should have made unnecessary. To compensate, they spend their leisure time resting, doing easier and (the thinking often goes) 'less important' activities: sitting on the sofa, watching undemanding 'entertainment' television, wish-fulfilment fantasies. Look at the business/entertainment culture in Japan, as well. Healthy fantasies aren't polarized like this: they're integral parts of your life which inform and help to drive it, not reactive compensation. That polarization is bad for art and bad for society. A society of eloi-idealizing morlocks is sick. About elves having social grace: on the other hand, in legend, Tolkien and the Realms they're also portrayed as haughty, inscrutable, alien; while dwarves have strong communities, are down-to-earth, loyal to friends, etc.
Karsus the Mad 11-17-06, 05:39 PM	Eh. I've never put any one race above or below another (how a particular race or group of individuals sees other races is another matter entirely). Each have their place. Each fulfill a unique role. I like dwarves well enough...except for this one dwarven female picture I saw on Elfwood *shudders* that's turned me slightly off of em'. I'm neutral to elves. I used to like them more than I do now due to all the hype I've seen, but after studying them for myself, and having nearly every thread I've seen discussing elves having people that will bash you if you say anything negative about elves (regardless if it's also true...and when it is, they prompty either ignore it, or try to refute it with "elven logic"), I quickly dropped to neutrality, deeming them not to be what most elf fans attempt to make them out to be:). Humans, well, I hate them and like them. They're simply too varied to generalize an opinion on the entire race. I either like certain groupings, certain realms, etc, or I either dislike them or are neutral to them. Then of course it goes further down to the individual of a given species. This is solely based on how I percieve that creature. I could love this elf here, but that one over there I'm going to imprison as soon as noones looking. Same for others. I also try not to read too much into fantasy races to see if I can find a parallel cause for people enjoying them;)
theartistformerlyknownas 11-17-06, 08:52 PM	I agree here. I may respect dwarves for their drive and their family values, or admire the elves for their love of art and music, but at heart, I am a human. Part of being a human is accepting the graces and flaws of other people. And unfortunately, these boards have proven to me that another part of being human is doing the exact opposite, looking at another race with prejudice, whether positive or not. I can't honestly say that I have a favorite race anymore, because that would make me (arguably) a racist. And these boards have proven to me that there are far too many of those lurking around as it is.
KaeYoss 11-18-06, 07:46 AM	I like dwarves well enough... Seeing almost every dwarven character played like sociopaths with sick tastes (and most of the rest being played by absolute D&D newbloods who had to be led to roleplaying first) soured them for me, personally. I understand, though, that it's not the dwarves' fault, but the result of abysmal role-playing (which is why I'll be playing a dwarven cleric in our next campaign, which will start in two weeks) On a similar vein, I've seen many paladins played like arrogant jerks (and if we didn't need a full-time healer, I might have played a dwarven paladin instead of priest). Curiously enough, I had only very little haughty, arrogant elves. I used to like them more than I do now due to all the hype I've seen, but after studying them for myself, and having nearly every thread I've seen discussing elves having people that will bash you if you say anything negative about elves (regardless if it's also true...and when it is, they prompty either ignore it, or try to refute it with "elven logic"), I quickly dropped to neutrality, deeming them not to be what most elf fans attempt to make them out to be:). I saw few instants where those who said anything negative about elves were bashed. Quite the contrary: I see tons of elf-bashers, trolling and flamebaiting all over the net. And unfortunately, these boards have proven to me that another part of being human is doing the exact opposite, looking at another race with prejudice, whether positive or not. I can't honestly say that I have a favorite race anymore, because that would make me (arguably) a racist. And these boards have proven to me that there are far too many of those lurking around as it is. Unfortunately, that is all too true. They are probably still a minority, but it's a very vocal one. And it's not elf-bashers and gnome-bashers and stuff like that. There's also hatred between players of different games: D&D-vs-WoD, 2e-vs-3e, FR-vs-Eberron and all that. And the worst thing is that those idiots give the rest of us a bad name: Those couple of lobotomized jerks who bash everyone who says anything vaguely-negative about elves often make elf-fans seem like idiots. Those who bash elves make often see all those who don't like them too much like the lowest scum. The few braindeads who bash others because they play this game or that edition make it seem that you can't play both. But it is not so: People can have some opinions without being prejudiced and without hating everyone who doesn't share those opinions. It's just that some people would much rather engage in hate-mongering than in nice, wholesome discussion. Healthy fantasies aren't polarized like this: they're integral parts of your life which inform and help to drive it, not reactive compensation. That polarization is bad for art and bad for society. A society of eloi-idealizing morlocks is sick. Could you clarify this? I must have misread it. I read it as if you said that all those who like elves because they don't work 16 hours a day are sick? I'm sure I misinterpret something here. I wouldn't call a phantasy of an easier life sick. People don't necessary fantasise about not working at all. They just imagine how it would be if they don't had to work as much. And elves certainly do work. They're just not fixed solely on physical labour. Dwarves, in many stories, seem to be. And I think that doesn't appeal to many. About elves having social grace: on the other hand, in legend, Tolkien and the Realms they're also portrayed as haughty, inscrutable, alien; while dwarves have strong communities, are down-to-earth, loyal to friends, etc. Yes, of course. All races have good and bad traits. In the end, it comes down to personal preference: What good traits does one admire/identify oneself with the most, what bad traits bother one the least? Personally, the dwarves' lawful streak - clan before individual with hardly any exception, tradition above all, doing things as they have always been done - is a big turn-off.
GothicDan 11-18-06, 03:43 PM	It's kind of amusing that I consider myself an elf-fanboy and yet agree with Faraer's salient points. Of course, I've espoused a balance in all aspects of life since I was all of 14 years old. And, then again, I spend about 70 hours a week on school work. I guess that's why I like Sun Elves so much - they seem to combine many of the best aspects of your typical D&D elf and dwarf.
BrianCritchley 11-18-06, 04:17 PM	I'll agree that you get a lot of dwarves played like sociopaths. you always get some newbie RPer playing em who basicly boils down to "I go be violent and then drink a beer. ohh and I talk in a bad scots accent"
Karsus the Mad 11-18-06, 04:27 PM	I'll agree that you get a lot of dwarves played like sociopaths. you always get some newbie RPer playing em who basicly boils down to "I go be violent and then drink a beer. ohh and I talk in a bad scots accent" I have never understood that. Yeah they drink a lot, yeah they like a nice brawl, but how that makes them sociopathic I've no clue. It'd be the same as saying just because wood elves enjoy partying and having a good time whenever possible means they're self indulgent nymphomaniacs. Simply isn't true.
GothicDan 11-18-06, 04:33 PM	I don't understand the idea of dwarves being played as sociopaths, at all. Aggressive, yes. But sociopaths? Um... Nope. It makes me wonder if people are using the term correctly. (Not meant offensively, mind you.)
Karsus the Mad 11-18-06, 04:56 PM	Precisely. It means a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience. Call me crazy, but that describes the exact opposite of a typical dwarf.
bitter thorn 11-18-06, 09:54 PM	Precisely. It means a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience. Call me crazy, but that describes the exact opposite of a typical dwarf. I agree. Antisocial pathology strikes me as un-Dwarven.
Mad Mage 11-19-06, 01:02 AM	Well, I guess it's time this thread heard from a real Realms dwarf fan. No, I don't actually play P&P Forgotten Realms or D&D in general. I play Realms-based games and read Realms novels. Still, that doesn't mean I can't yearn for novels with dwarves as protagonists, can I? The thing is, I'd love to see such a dream come true, and hopefully soon. I'd also love said dwarf to not be very stereotypical, although some common dwarf social traits should be prevalent. The thing is, with the lack of consideration - and the common insults that come my way across the internet for liking dwarves over any other common fantasy race - I swear it seems like all I get is hate and disappointment. :(
KaeYoss 11-19-06, 12:31 PM	Precisely. It means a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience. Call me crazy, but that describes the exact opposite of a typical dwarf. It's not exactly the typical dwarf that's the problem. It's the kind of dwarf that too many people play. I'm sure many here have their own horror stories. Dwarves who only like to kill things and drink alcohol until they pass out, who say about three sentences per session, two of them being "For Moradin (or other dwarf god)", and "Charge!", who hate every non-dwarf because they're all mad or something, who have no respect for non-dwarven authority figures. The only way to get them to talk more than those three battle cries is to ask them about axes, at which they go on about how they're the only weapon. It's sad, but it happens. I might have overdone it a bit there, but I actually encountered one or two who were exactly like that. The thing is, I'd love to see such a dream come true, and hopefully soon. I'd also love said dwarf to not be very stereotypical, although some common dwarf social traits should be prevalent. That's always the trick, isn't it: create a character that isn't a walking stereotype, but isn't completely off, either. If anyone about to read such a novel is reading this, I have some suggestions: No "my clan was killed, I'm the only survivor, I have to avenge them". By now, there must be a billion dwarves from a million clans killed by orcs or goblins or kobolds or landslides. He should be taciturn, but not rude or gruff. He likes to get things said with few words, but they don't have to be taken straight from a suicide letter. Lots of internal monologue will fill the gaps needed for conversation. He may be fond of drinks, but not a drinker. He won't shy from a fight, and enjoy it, but he won't seek them out. He will realize that there's other ways to deal with people. Please, please, no clinical phobia of magic. He will probably be a fighter (though a priest might be more interesting, and could take care of the speaking problems), and maybe think that metal tools are his first choice for most problems (fights, work), but no crying "she's a witch" as soon as someone uses arcane magic. The thing is, with the lack of consideration - and the common insults that come my way across the internet for liking dwarves over any other common fantasy race - I swear it seems like all I get is hate and disappointment. :( Well, you're not alone. People seem to be looking for an excuse to insult people. "You're a fan of dwarves? Elves? Kobolds? Psionics? Eberron? Forgotten Realms? 2nd edition? 3rd edition? D&D? WoD? Well, I don't like that, and now I don't like you and think you're a second class human for liking it." The bad thing about the internet is that you can't just walk over to those people and set them straight with your trusty cattle prod. I don't understand the idea of dwarves being played as sociopaths, at all. Aggressive, yes. But sociopaths? Um... Nope. It makes me wonder if people are using the term correctly. (Not meant offensively, mind you.) Those I've seen certainly show most of the symptoms. I'll agree that you get a lot of dwarves played like sociopaths. you always get some newbie RPer playing em who basicly boils down to "I go be violent and then drink a beer. ohh and I talk in a bad scots accent" Actually, I hardly ever encountered crappy dwarven characters played by people new to RPG. It was mostly those who considered themselves veterans.
GothicDan 11-19-06, 03:02 PM	I only ever personally engaged in one game in which a Dwarf character was RPed remotely as a sociopath - and by sociopath, I mean he played a berserker. (That one PrC/kit I'm forgetting the name of.) It was played by a 16 year old. (Note that being angry and violent does not a sociopath make!) On the other hand, in the last 2E game I played in, the DM was about 35-40, and he played a wonderful Neutral Dwarf Priest of Reorx. The coolest thing was him humming/grunting in a low Dwarven way for 3 rounds, with his legs wide-spread and set, and then a Firestorm falling out of the sky. That's a good dwarf. Other than that, the other races I've seen in play in real life have been mostly humans. 4 Drow (two CG rangers...), 2 gnomes, 1 halfling... And I think I'm the only one who has ever played an elf.
BrianCritchley 11-19-06, 03:11 PM	Actually, I hardly ever encountered crappy dwarven characters played by people new to RPG. It was mostly those who considered themselves veterans. bit differnt my my dwarven horror story, we've got a player who is relitivly new (although he really knows the rules and the theory) whose absolutly fascinated with dwarves (practialy obsessed) now he's got his hands on just about all the dwarven books so he realisticly outta know how to play a dwarf as well as anyone, but well... we had a little incident the other session.. the party had captured some sun elves who had attacked them (I wanted to throw a curveball at my players drow? orcs?sure no problem they die without question, surface elves and my PCs think "ok what the hell is going on here) they took some of em captive and after the party cleric, a drow, had no luck interogating em, the dwarf player really wanted to do it. so the cleric getting no where figures "alright have at em" so the dwarf starts off suggesting he'd like a elf finger and ear necklace (boy I'd love to see him explain THAT when the party walked through cormanthyr) and the elves simply ask him to be sure he cuts off their noses too so they don't have to smell his stink. anyway after that the dwarf gets the idea to trow an axe between their legs (the player got incensed I made him roll for it and didn't just assume his char made a rather tricky throw). anyway the party Paladin, rightfully stepped in to stop this throw from even happening. so the dwarf tries to punch the Paladin, now fist cuffs between PCs are ok, but I called for an initative roll. because the dwarf didn't actually have surpsie I figured. the Paladin won it and went total defense. so the dwarf player draws his axe and moves to strike at the Paladin with it (earning a dozen drawn swords in his direction). now sure the player was getting carried away but that kinda "gruff solve everything with violence" seems to be my experiance with dwarves, generally I don't see many.... thoguhtful and forward thining dwarf players. just a buncha "grr violence! grr beer!"
theartistformerlyknownas 11-19-06, 04:19 PM	My brother plays a Dwarf Rogue/Psychic Warrior/Wizard/Paladin of Dugmaren Brightmantle. He's the best dwarf character I've ever had the pleasure of adventuring with. He doesn't drink (he says he needs to stay on his guard at all times, but secretly just hates the taste of the stuff), has no facial hair other than his carefully groomed mutton chops (he shaved it off after losing an escape artist check because of it), and began his adventuring carreer after skipping out of an arranged marriage. He belongs to the Order of the Book (a knightly arm of Dugmaren Brightmantle's church, allowing him to freely multiclass between wizard and paladin), and learned arcane magic from a sun elf on the sword coast. He's driven and yet absent-minded, compassionate and sober, loyal and rebellious all at once. He's a perfect example of how one can play a dwarf that goes against the grain and still maintain the fact that he's still a dwarf. Me? I play your typical wood elf bard/ranger/harper agent. :rolleyes:
KaeYoss 11-20-06, 10:30 AM	(Note that being angry and violent does not a sociopath make!) Noted. See, what was the worst? Eastern Dwarf Priest of some Chinese sounding deity, alignment on the sheet: NG. Alignment he claims is going for LN. My character: CN Grey Elf Thief/Wizard. He was a thief in name only (crappy, lousy 2e class name), more of a scout or arcane stalker type. But the dwarf didn't trust him, because he's an elf, he casts witch magic, and he's a thief (nevermind that he isn't, he must be, it says so on the sheet). So we were fighting giants (he did a lot of damage, but didn't do a single killing stroke. I did, with a puny little short bow, with those 1d8 + nothing damage.) A little while later, he had a bout of megalomania, shouting around "I'M THE WAR GOD! I'M THE WAR GOD!" So I reply: "Yeah, sure. Full of yourself's what you are, but no god." He: "Bah, then I'm the CHOSEN of the War God!" Me: "Yeah? Who felled the most giants today?" At which point his char just punchs my char in the face. I defend myself by casting hold person - and he fails his save, which is almost impossible. Instead of slitting his throath, which in retrospect I realize I should have done, I just push him over and walk away, not interested in intra-party fights, dooming the whole countryside to whatever evil we were fighting just because Mr. Dwarf is barking mad. So later he just walks up to me while I was preparing spells and kicks me in the head, so I can't prepare spells. This continued - but not for very long, as I left that gaming circle soon after.
bitter thorn 11-20-06, 01:47 PM	Wow, that bites! The oddest dwarf I've evr had in a group was a lecherous ftr/clr played by a fellow teen in first ed. Yes, I'm an old fart.;)
KaeYoss 11-20-06, 02:09 PM	The oddest dwarf I've evr had in a group was a lecherous ftr/clr He played Durnkrag's father? :D
BrianCritchley 11-20-06, 04:31 PM	ugh keayoss that sounds bad. how old was this dwarf player? 4? 5? maybe 6?
Mad Mage 11-20-06, 07:35 PM	He played Durnkrag's father? :D Heh, I'm surprised one person here would bring up the very webcomic I'm involved with! :smirk: But yeah, I'd say dwarves - and possibly other unpopular non-human/non-elven races - get a bad reputation via bad interpretation - be it by players, programmers, writers, etc.
BrianCritchley 11-21-06, 02:44 PM	Heh, I'm surprised one person here would bring up the very webcomic I'm involved with! :smirk: But yeah, I'd say dwarves - and possibly other unpopular non-human/non-elven races - get a bad reputation via bad interpretation - be it by players, programmers, writers, etc. not just races eaither, Paladins are like that they tend to get a bad rep due to ****** playing. currently one of my PCs is playing a Paladin and quickly redeeming the class in their eyes. how? quite simple, he's remembering that Paladins can have fun. it sortta smacksa your perceptions around to see the Paladin in the party flirting with the bar maid
bitter thorn 11-22-06, 12:24 AM	He played Durnkrag's father? :D LMAO!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
KaeYoss 11-22-06, 10:15 AM	Heh, I'm surprised one person here would bring up the very webcomic I'm involved with! :smirk: So you're Nathan? ugh keayoss that sounds bad. how old was this dwarf player? 4? 5? maybe 6? Had to be something like this, though he had lived on this planet for over 25 years at the time.
ChuutRiit 11-22-06, 11:34 AM	He played Durnkrag's father? :D Hehehe, love that webcomic :D. Too add something halfway meaningful: I like both elves and dwarves, as long as nobody uses stereotypes, which I find just plain annoying, boring and stupid. Which I detest...
Mad Mage 11-23-06, 02:00 AM	So you're Nathan? Nope, but I did make a cameo in the comic. Here's a hint: read my sig. ;)
KaeYoss 11-23-06, 11:09 AM	Nope, but I did make a cameo in the comic. Here's a hint: read my sig. ;) Ah, I see now. Nice nonetheless.