Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xavier_of_Cormyr 11-01-06, 04:36 PM	I gotta say, the end line... "Will Azoun and Filfaeril ever get out of the tavern? Perusing our next column is the only way you'll find out." made me laugh... very old school batman... same bat time, same bat website...
BladeDrinker 11-01-06, 09:37 PM	I don't want to be prudish or critical of Ed, but am I the only one who cringes at his urge to sexualize his characters? He does the same thing with Elminster and other minor characters such as Vanderdahast. Female characters like Alusair meanwhile will mount with any phallic object connected to a pulse; unless they are married, of course, in which case they just shrug off their husbands' infidelities with an amused smile. I suppose adultery is a standard topic of Arthurian romance literature, but at this point in history it hardly seems titillating anymore.
Krash 11-02-06, 01:38 AM	Do you always comment with innaccurate, broad generalizations to make a point? How about we play a game: you name every 'open' marriage you can find that's been mentioned in the Realms since 1987, and I'll give you two 'traditional and monogamous' ones to match. Let's see who runs out first, shall we? Oh, and as for your comments re Alusair, are you saying she's the 'norm' for portrayed females in the Realms? If so, her sister Tanalasta torpedoes your argument in a second. People have sex. Yep, believe it or not. Ed has the courage to not shy away from this fact of life (whether in the real world or the Realms) and isn't worried or scared to show people who like sex. The fact that you find such characters cringeworthy says rather more about you, than it does about Ed Greenwood. At least he's open and honest about what he writes and means. What are you trying to say? -- George Krashos
Xavier_of_Cormyr 11-02-06, 11:32 AM	Do you always comment with innaccurate, broad generalizations to make a point? How about we play a game: you name every 'open' marriage you can find that's been mentioned in the Realms since 1987, and I'll give you two 'traditional and monogamous' ones to match. Let's see who runs out first, shall we? Oh, and as for your comments re Alusair, are you saying she's the 'norm' for portrayed females in the Realms? If so, her sister Tanalasta torpedoes your argument in a second. People have sex. Yep, believe it or not. Ed has the courage to not shy away from this fact of life (whether in the real world or the Realms) and isn't worried or scared to show people who like sex. The fact that you find such characters cringeworthy says rather more about you, than it does about Ed Greenwood. At least he's open and honest about what he writes and means. What are you trying to say? -- George Krashos i suddenly had a flashback to "The People vs. Larry Flynt"... :P
Davidw 11-02-06, 01:30 PM	I don't want to be prudish or critical of Ed, but am I the only one who cringes at his urge to sexualize his characters? Er... yes.
BrianCritchley 11-02-06, 08:43 PM	sides auzon is hardly alone, history is full of kings well known for their indescritions with women. it should also be noted auzon's indescritions aren't without ANY price. both his and alsuair's actions have some people frowning at em. that being said, it sounds like the nobility, even those married, taking lovers, is quite common, I doubt Lady Ohrmatha Huntcrown was an unwed lass.
Zsych 11-03-06, 09:28 AM	@Krash: A bit harsh, no? I've also at times considered various FR characters to be more sexually oriented than I would expect(especially in a world without condoms :)) ... and of course, a several thousand year old guy doing it is just plain wrong :) A 1000 year old guy doing someone less than 500 should be considered pedophile behavior :)
The Ubbergeek 11-03-06, 10:20 AM	We play RPG. We do not want real-world issues in our games.
Red_Wizard 11-03-06, 12:06 PM	Do you always comment with innaccurate, broad generalizations to make a point? How about we play a game: you name every 'open' marriage you can find that's been mentioned in the Realms since 1987, and I'll give you two 'traditional and monogamous' ones to match. Let's see who runs out first, shall we? Oh, and as for your comments re Alusair, are you saying she's the 'norm' for portrayed females in the Realms? If so, her sister Tanalasta torpedoes your argument in a second. People have sex. Yep, believe it or not. Ed has the courage to not shy away from this fact of life (whether in the real world or the Realms) and isn't worried or scared to show people who like sex. The fact that you find such characters cringeworthy says rather more about you, than it does about Ed Greenwood. At least he's open and honest about what he writes and means. What are you trying to say? -- George Krashos Hmmmm...welll.....nope, you covered it all nicely, guess i'm left satisfied that you beat me to it :D
MaskedOne 11-03-06, 03:05 PM	I don't want to be prudish or critical of Ed, but am I the only one who cringes at his urge to sexualize his characters? He does the same thing with Elminster and other minor characters such as Vanderdahast. Female characters like Alusair meanwhile will mount with any phallic object connected to a pulse; unless they are married, of course, in which case they just shrug off their husbands' infidelities with an amused smile. I suppose adultery is a standard topic of Arthurian romance literature, but at this point in history it hardly seems titillating anymore. Barring marriages, I don't particularly care how much or little reference Ed gives to sex as long as the rest of the plot doesn't center around it and doesn't irritate me. Including marriages, I'm assuming Azoun's vows were distinctly different from the forms I'm likely to find on Earth because otherwise he shifts (at least in my view, I won't speak for others) from the category of decent king to unrepentant oathbreaking scum and I seriously doubt that was Ed's intent in setting him up. Krash: Note, I've already stated an assumption that Azoun's vows were different. Do not take out your impatience with the topic on me.
GothicDan 11-03-06, 03:34 PM	Hm. People growing up in a group of cultures in which hedonism (to an extent) is not openly shunned? Would be more hedonistic. (And Ed actually mentioned contraceptives in at least one of his replies.)
longarm 11-03-06, 05:20 PM	(And Ed actually mentioned contraceptives in at least one of his replies.) In addition a male and female contraceptive (two types of plants, IIRC) are statted out in the FRCS (I think it's in the FRCS). -Longarm
Faraer 11-03-06, 06:02 PM	@Krash: A bit harsh, no?Not at all. The idea that human beings are asexual and that it's somehow Ed's doing to 'sexualize' them doesn't deserve respect.I've also at times considered various FR characters to be more sexually oriented than I would expect(especially in a world without condoms :))Contraception is readily available both through herblore and magic (for instance via the Old Megs and Sylunes).Including marriages, I'm assuming Azoun's vows were distinctly different from the forms I'm likely to find on EarthThey weren't those of the conventional modern Western marriage, no.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 11-03-06, 06:36 PM	:uh-huh: anyone else find this interesting? Not the subject matter of these posts, but how the thread just takes on a life of its own.... geez, let's move on to something fantasy & get off the "did Azoun wear a rubber while cheating" topic... :uh-huh:
Davidw 11-03-06, 06:52 PM	Interesting question. Did he...?
Dark Wizard 11-03-06, 07:49 PM	There's a Bastard of Azoun regional background in Champions of Valor, 'nuff said.
Lord Karsus 11-04-06, 12:31 AM	Interesting question. Did he...? -You'd first have to answer the question, "Which time?"
BadCatMan 11-04-06, 12:45 AM	It would be full plate anyway...
miscellany 11-05-06, 02:32 AM	I like the additional lore about NPCs who are or may very well be known sons and daughters of Azoun. I like to drop NPCs like this into my campaign and then have the secret come out much later on, to the surprise of my players. Keeps them thinking about the game world and all the unique people in it.
MerrikCale 11-05-06, 07:58 AM	I don't want to be prudish or critical of Ed, but am I the only one who cringes at his urge to sexualize his characters? You are not alone. And I don't mind being critical of Ed.
starsheep 11-05-06, 01:06 PM	This whole debate reminds me of a million table in-jokes. "Make a Fort save." "I got a 12." "Ok, you now have Herpes... +1." I'm fine with the abstract notion of Elminster and the Simbul getting it on, but I think I'll draw the line at actual game mechanics for birth control. I'd rather get a girlfriend in real life, honestly.
Karsus the Mad 11-05-06, 02:27 PM	Yeah...actually...it is pretty sad when birth control is detailed mechanically...but it's funny as hell:D "You find a bluish liguid that resembles a cure minor wounds potion." "I drink it down." "You feel a massive burning sensation in your left nut." "What?!" 14 hours later in the tavern "Hey my lovely, and cheap, wench. Lets go up to my 1cp rented barn stall."....."Ahhh...no, no...nothings wrong...I simply don't seem to be in the mood.....uhhhh...hmmmm....could I get a refund?"
GothicDan 11-05-06, 05:17 PM	I'm fine with the abstract notion of Elminster and the Simbul getting it on, but I think I'll draw the line at actual game mechanics for birth control. I'd rather get a girlfriend in real life, honestly. That's one of the reasons I love college: there's no such thing as 'being too geeky to have a girlfriend.' Geeks and preps alike can find partners in the halls of higher learning. ;)
eocine 11-06-06, 07:44 AM	Hi I'm selling an account and this site I came across oloot site gives pretty good prices, for me at least hehe. Just want to get opinions from you guys. Thanks! There are many opinons I would like to give to you right now, but I'm not sure that the more impressionable readers here should be subjected to such filth, so I'll keep this as clean as I can. Suffice it to say I think that you're a ****** **** ******** ******** with all the grace of a ***** ***** ******* loving goat, and that you should go and ******* dysentry riddled *********** whilst ******* ********'s ******** clam chower. You goon. ;) --------- Back on topic, I personally don't have any kind of problem with the realms being sexualized, it adds a realisim that some miss out on. Frankly, and lets not beat around the bush here, people have sex, and it's an important part of their lives, as such it deserves to be mentioned. More than that though it effects how people deal with people, even if we wish it didn't, as such it deserves to go in. Hell more than that people like to gossip about who celebrities are boffing, I don't think that we should expect more of the 'people' of Faerun.
Njord 11-06-06, 07:12 PM	I am not sure that adding random sex makes the Realms more real at all. The King Screw-a-Lot Azoun reminds me more of Henry VIII than Arthur or any real hero. Just look at Ed's Spellfire "Oh Narm we are about to suffocate and die. Lets do it on a pile of gold with no contraceptive herbs/magic and not get pregnant. I wont regret it at all and we will get married in a tenday!" Unless I am missing something that does not happen in "real" life.
Krash 11-06-06, 07:49 PM	I am not sure that adding random sex makes the Realms more real at all. The King Screw-a-Lot Azoun reminds me more of Henry VIII than Arthur or any real hero. Just look at Ed's Spellfire "Oh Narm we are about to suffocate and die. Lets do it on a pile of gold with no contraceptive herbs/magic and not get pregnant. I wont regret it at all and we will get married in a tenday!" Unless I am missing something that does not happen in "real" life. Maybe not the married part, or even the "fall in love" part, but the "we are about to die, let's bonk" part is quite common. Just look at the Berlin Bunker in the last days of WWII. -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 11-06-06, 07:56 PM	That's one of the reasons I love college: there's no such thing as 'being too geeky to have a girlfriend.' Geeks and preps alike can find partners in the halls of higher learning. ;) -But...:confused: -Never mind. I'm not even going to say what I was going to say. Maybe not the married part, or even the "fall in love" part, but the "we are about to die, let's bonk" part is quite common. -"Let's bonk", eh? You've got such a way with words... :rofl:
Karsus the Mad 11-06-06, 08:22 PM	Krash has it good. I think I'll consider that as a classic. It's rather true also;) Njord...I think you have missed something in real life because that does happen, and often. I've done it once myself. Being in a warzone, the only company a complete stranger. You never know what kind of magic that creates;)
Njord 11-06-06, 08:55 PM	Be that as it may I still feel like in a effort to bring "real life" to the Realms the pendulum swings to far. I am not saying "flash sex" does not happen. I am well aware that it does. I now see the problem with coming against the "over sexualized realms" theories. No matter how you try and articulate it people pass you off as a unsexed prude. I guess people will defend free love in their fantasies for generations to come. Being a counselor/psychologist by profession I usually have to hear about the heartbreak and emotional baggage of such encounters and less of the, "Wow that was good...next." But now we are getting away from the Realms and more into, "who has done it in a foxhole." :pint:
Faraer 11-06-06, 09:11 PM	The Realms isn't sexualized -- made sexual -- sex isn't added to the Realms to bring it 'real life'. The sex is there, naturally and integrally, all along. The role of sex in the published Realms (self-censored by TSR's Code of Ethics and later WotC's Standards for Content) is certainly a good deal smaller than in real life -- there's far, far more violence in the sources than sex (and love). If you prefer less sex in your fiction, or your fantasy worlds, that doesn't necessarily make you a prude, but it isn't a criticism of the Realms, either.
MerrikCale 11-06-06, 09:26 PM	I am not sure that adding random sex makes the Realms more real at all. The King Screw-a-Lot Azoun reminds me more of Henry VIII than Arthur or any real hero. Just look at Ed's Spellfire "Oh Narm we are about to suffocate and die. Lets do it on a pile of gold with no contraceptive herbs/magic and not get pregnant. I wont regret it at all and we will get married in a tenday!" Unless I am missing something that does not happen in "real" life. I'm thinking you need to get out more. As to Faraer, I'm not criticizing the fiction of the Realms just the fiction of Ed. Big difference, he's the only one that goes on and on like that
Faraer 11-06-06, 09:32 PM	But he doesn't! There's a hundred other scenes for each of the ones you're referring to. We don't know what your objection is, anyway.
MerrikCale 11-06-06, 09:39 PM	But he doesn't! There's a hundred other scenes for each of the ones you're referring to. We don't know what your objection is, anyway. His writing is over sexed to the point of silliness. I agree there's more violence thats the nature of the genre, but Ed's fiction (particularly of Elminster and Storm) is oversexed. I don't view as sex in novels such as these to be inappropriate or "out of place" when written interestingly. But with his novels (and those characters in particular), its juvenile and dull.
Karsus the Mad 11-07-06, 09:56 PM	:pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: For all the people oversexed. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :headexplo For the people undersexed Either way, sex has certain effects:angelhide or at least orgasm does:eek:
MerrikCale 11-07-06, 10:07 PM	:pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: For all the people oversexed. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :headexplo For the people undersexed Either way, sex has certain effects:angelhide or at least orgasm does:eek: OK. I'll bite. The point is.....
Karsus the Mad 11-08-06, 10:18 AM	The point was that some don't have a problem with sex and some do, or in this case, too much sex. It's a matter of preference, or lack thereof. Apples and oranges, x's and o's, cars and trucks, well you get the idea:)
BrennonGoldeye 11-08-06, 10:35 AM	I am proud to gift to you all my new spell "Stop all that sexin" Anyone wanting to learn it just let me know. It's a chronospell that allows you too travel back to 5mins before your conception and turn off the sex drive of everyone within 2 miles. Free to all!!!
MerrikCale 11-08-06, 11:13 AM	The point was that some don't have a problem with sex and some do, or in this case, too much sex. It's a matter of preference, or lack thereof. Apples and oranges, x's and o's, cars and trucks, well you get the idea:) I don't mind sex in a novel if its written intelligently and/or for a reason.
GothicDan 11-08-06, 04:41 PM	On the other hand, sometimes novels are good because they have no specific reason. They are just 'a day in the life of...' type novels. That's one of the reasons I love China Mieville; there's no metaplot or the like for hundreds of pages. You just get to read about the characters. And that's what Ed's writing about. Characters. Being a counselor/psychologist by profession I usually have to hear about the heartbreak and emotional baggage of such encounters and less of the, "Wow that was good...next." As a psychologist/counselor, I am sure you also know how much of this is a result of historical and cultural paradigms, too. I doubt there would have been nearly as many such individuals coming to you if you worked in Athens 2,500 years ago. And, of course, you're looking at only a subset of the population. It's rather like saying, "Well, obviously everyone loves sex!" because you are a prostitute for a living. In other words, those people who come to you about sexual/emotional problems are the only ones you're going to be seeing, obviously. Someone isn't going to make an appointment to have their car tuned up, only to pull it up and say, "Man, my new car is amazing! There's absolutely nothing wrong with it!" And that being said... One of the reasons why A Game of Thrones is so amazing is that it presents a surprisingly accurate portrayal of the lives of 'English'-esque nobles and other important individuals. (George RR Martin wrote historical fiction for a long time, after all.) And those books are fairly rife with sex or sexual innuendos - more so than Ed's novels.
Davidw 11-08-06, 05:29 PM	I don't mind sex in a novel if its written intelligently and/or for a reason. /pervert speaking/ Sex in a novel *is* the reason. :) /end of pervert speaking/
Karsus the Mad 11-08-06, 07:10 PM	On the other hand, sometimes novels are good because they have no specific reason. They are just 'a day in the life of...' type novels. That's one of the reasons I love China Mieville; there's no metaplot or the like for hundreds of pages. You just get to read about the characters. And that's what Ed's writing about. Characters. Precisely. Human characters are human and will do as humans do, and think as humans think. Expecting otherwise is to expect a human not to be human. Ed does an excellent job about portraying the humanity of human characters.
MerrikCale 11-08-06, 09:09 PM	And that's what Ed's writing about. Characters. Frankly, Ed's characters are some of the most one-dimensional in FR fiction.
GothicDan 11-08-06, 09:10 PM	I'll just say that I disagree. I enjoyed reading Elminster in Hell very much, even if his actual word placement and the like isn't my favorite. But Elminster himself, his memories, his vulnerabilities, his strengths... Well, let's just say that I've always been pretty neutral about Elminster, but the novel definitely pushed me towards actually liking him overall. So far, out of any of the newer novels I've read, I have yet to find any of them as particularly memorable. Granted, I haven't been reading that many of them, either.
MerrikCale 11-08-06, 09:13 PM	I'll just say that I disagree. I enjoyed reading Elminster in Hell very much, even if his actual word placement and the like isn't my favorite. But Elminster himself, his memories, his vulnerabilities, his strengths... Well, let's just say that I've always been pretty neutral about Elminster, but the novel definitely pushed me towards actually liking him overall. So far, out of any of the newer novels I've read, I have yet to find any of them as particularly memorable. Granted, I haven't been reading that many of them, either. Fair enough. In fact, Elminster in Hell was the only Elminster book I liked.
Gellion 11-09-06, 09:26 PM	I do not mind sex in a novel as long as it is not explicit, and as long as it is not all the characters ever seem to think about and do.:)
MerrikCale 11-10-06, 10:46 AM	I do not mind sex in a novel as long as it is not explicit, and as long as it is not all the characters ever seem to think about and do.:) What about if its all I ever think about and do?
BrianCritchley 11-10-06, 12:17 PM	What about if its all I ever think about and do? he's got a point, men think about sex every 5 seconds, women every 10. thus it's not exactly unfair for a scene in a novel to say mention a character watching "the gently swaying hips of the barmaid as she walks off"
MerrikCale 11-10-06, 01:14 PM	he's got a point, men think about sex every 5 seconds, women every 10. thus it's not exactly unfair for a scene in a novel to say mention a character watching "the gently swaying hips of the barmaid as she walks off" That might be all I think about but that does not mean I want to constantly read about it.
Davidw 11-10-06, 01:54 PM	he's got a point, men think about sex every 5 seconds, women every 10. That's hardly sex true. I can go sex for a lot longer sex than that without thinking sex about sex sex. :D
GothicDan 11-10-06, 01:59 PM	That might be all I think about but that does not mean I want to constantly read about it. Well, that's why you don't. But I don't think it's right to critisize something as 'bad' for being what it is, very well - a representation of human psychology and characterization. In the ABCs of Reading, that was one of the author's main points: all too often, people make very bad critiques about things which they assume are trying to do something that they are not. One can say that they don't like something for purely personal reasons, without trying to make it into a critique of the author or the writing at hand. For instance, while I cannot stand reading the LotR, I think that Tolkien set out what he was trying to do with a success so far unequaled - to mold a Western European fantasy epic world. You're not going to see me saying, "Zomg, he goes on about this and that, and the writing is so droll, and..." so on. Yes, yes he does - but that's part of what he was trying to do, specifically, to make a point.
MerrikCale 11-10-06, 03:00 PM	Well, that's why you don't. But I don't think it's right to critisize something as 'bad' for being what it is, very well - a representation of human psychology and characterization. We'll have to agree to disagree that Ed's writing is that.
GothicDan 11-10-06, 03:01 PM	Mmkay. :)
Gellion 11-10-06, 05:10 PM	That might be all I think about but that does not mean I want to constantly read about it. Yep....Sex!;)
BrianCritchley 11-10-06, 08:14 PM	sides ed's books don't have THAT much sex in em, maybe one or two scenes that mention sex, but it's certinly no worse then a modern movie. I take it those who complain about ed's writing hate James Bond movies.
MerrikCale 11-10-06, 08:43 PM	sides ed's books don't have THAT much sex in em, maybe one or two scenes that mention sex, but it's certinly no worse then a modern movie. I take it those who complain about ed's writing hate James Bond movies. True. But Ed's characters are always more "horned up" than the average fantasy fiction, at least Eliminster and the "Silver Sisters".
Thinblade 11-10-06, 11:46 PM	That's hardly sex true. I can go sex for a lot longer sex than that without thinking sex about sex sex. :D Anyone else ever read Earthdawn's Book of Horrors? I just got a really nasty flashback to the Horror Nebis... (not that it wasn't also amusing...)
dragonheart 11-11-06, 12:19 PM	I'm sorry but I really have to laugh at some of this conversation. It reminds me no end of the discusions I've seen elsewhere of heinlein and the amounts of sex in his writings (and he makes ed's writings look monastic). Heinlein actually managed to cover the topic himself in one of his books (time enough for love) when his live forever character (Lazarous Long) is talking about life and makes a coupel of major points: 1. sex is one of the major driving forces in life - if yoru not interested in it your really already dead and haven't fallen into the grave yet. 2. when you start outliving everyone you know even "long term single partner relationships" start being fairly "short term" 3. healthy psychology allows for the possibility of loving more than one individual at a time. (granted so can aq number of fairly unhealthy psychologies as well) given the above most folks with extremely long lives are likely to be sexually active throughout - perhaps more so than those who try to limit their activity and enjoyment of life for "moral" reasons. (yes there are health reasons for limiting in the real world but we are workign in fiction where some realities can be left behind as an experiment in "what if") Elminster and the seven sisters are all very long lived and so its not surprising that they indulge in those things that bring happiness and pleasure every chance they get - they are faced with far more stuff that does not and so if sex is a good counterbalance I say go for it. :P
GothicDan 11-11-06, 12:22 PM	Of course, you'll have people who ignore all of the many points brought up on this thread, and will continue to decry Ed's characters because they PERSONALLY don't like them. ;) Good thing not everyone is paid to critique literature, eh?
BrianCritchley 11-11-06, 04:48 PM	indeed. the real question is.. why WOULDN'T the chosen as a whole occasionally have many "affairs of the heart" khelbhan and laerual have found a degree of stability with each other but other then that... (elminister and the symbul I suspect don't see one another NEARLY as often as they'd like)
Njord 11-11-06, 10:39 PM	khelbhan and laerual have found a degree of stability with each other but other then that... (elminister and the symbul I suspect don't see one another NEARLY as often as they'd like) Even so when you have lived for 600+ years in the case of the Simbul and who knows how long for El a couple tendays or even years should not seem like that long to wait.
Dark Wizard 11-12-06, 12:23 AM	They might be immortal, but they're still more or less human.
GothicDan 11-12-06, 08:48 PM	With notably unstable mindsets... ;)
BadCatMan 11-13-06, 01:10 AM	So now you've all estalished it's completely normal - can someone explain why Mystra turned a teenaged Elminster into a girl, then left him/her to wander naked through a forest for a while, then turned him back a few years later, only to pick him up like a dirty old woman? :p
BrianCritchley 11-13-06, 03:00 AM	So now you've all estalished it's completely normal - can someone explain why Mystra turned a teenaged Elminster into a girl, then left him/her to wander naked through a forest for a while, then turned him back a few years later, only to pick him up like a dirty old woman? :p well several reasons. 1: she's a goddess what she doesn't doesn't need to make sense to us mear mortals. 2: the book suggested that women had an easier time connecting with the weave (makes sense if mystra is a woman) 3: it made for good cover, remember elminister had powerful eneimes who wanted him dead. 4: there is no 4 5: it made elminister used to wearing a woman's body, god only knows how useful that might be in the future.