Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fw190a8 07-18-07, 04:25 PM	We're up over the 2500 article mark on FR-Wiki (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com) now, not including those with only a few sentences, thanks to a small dedicated team and a few less frequent contributors. The wiki now has a stricter policy on referencing to ensure factual accuracy. More help would be much appreciated though, so the wiki would greatly benefit from anyone wanting to make a contribution, whether it's a whole load of Realms information or just correcting a few typos. The wiki is still open for anybody to edit, naturally. This doesn't detract from the factual accuracy of the many well-written articles, and we have had just one instance of vandalism in the past few months, which was put right within ten minutes. If you do browse the wiki and find anything out of place, please take a couple of seconds to edit the page and put it right, or mention it, rather than coming back here to make a negative response on the subject. Many thanks.
Zanan 07-19-07, 07:41 AM	FW 190 A8, called "The Butcher Bird". Now that is a screen name! :D
Shemeska the Marauder 07-19-07, 03:28 PM	I've got a bunch of deity articles on my watchlist (multispheric gods present on both Toril and in the multiverse at large). I haven't done anything major, but if anything obviously strange showed up, I'd probably tackle it. A lot of gods that aren't exclusively FR however show up under the "Forgotten Realms Deity" heading at the moment. Not sure how to handle that.
fw190a8 07-19-07, 03:38 PM	Zanan, thank you! ;) Shemeska, are you watching the deity articles on Wikipedia or on the Forgotten Realms Wiki? My original post was about the latter, but it sounds like you were talking about the former.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-19-07, 03:41 PM	Zanan, thank you! ;) Shemeska, are you watching the deity articles on Wikipedia or on the Forgotten Realms Wiki? My original post was about the latter, but it sounds like you were talking about the former. Ahhh, my mistake. I meant wikipedia, not the FR-wiki. I misread the original post. :embarrass
fw190a8 07-19-07, 03:50 PM	It's good to know that the Wikipedia articles are being looked after. The Forgotten Realms Wiki is a totally separate wiki from Wikipedia because Wikipedia would never allow so much detail as the Realms deserves.
Red_Wizard 07-20-07, 08:40 AM	That's mainly due to the Realms having 0% open content. ;)
Zanan 07-21-07, 03:35 PM	That's mainly due to the Realms having 0% open content. ;) Which gives me some concern regarding the project in question here.
fw190a8 07-21-07, 03:40 PM	What is the nature of your concern? :eek:
Red_Wizard 07-22-07, 09:52 AM	The concern is derived from the fact that WoTC has stated quite obviously in all their FR products that none of the material is open for reproduction in any way. Much of the stuff you show there on Wiki is more than is allowed to be reposted even here on the Wizards boards. Why this has not been raised as an issue sooner by them, I do not know. But, it will ultimatly remain a point of contention, and something to hold back the tide-- or trickle, depending on the interest-- of fans who might consider aiding you in this venture.
fw190a8 07-22-07, 11:23 AM	Whilst I can appreciate the concerns on that basis, as you have pointed out, Wizards have expressed no objections themselves. The wiki is not making a profit, nor is it attempting to deny Wizards their business, quite the opposite. I personally hope the wiki will generate a lot more interest in the Realms and act, as any encyclopedia should, as an entry point to easily find information from any of the plethora of sources, akin to the original concept of Mr. James's Grand History. In this respect, I firmly believe the wiki is acting in the spirit of the community and will provide a resource not available elsewhere. We are careful to ensure that no articles on the wiki reproduce chunks of text from Wizards (or TSR) publications and that the articles and images fall under fair use. The aim is to summarize and collect information on a single topic from various sources in one place. If Wizards do express any concerns, the wiki will address them wholeheartedly.
Lord Karsus 07-22-07, 09:26 PM	The wiki is not making a profit, nor is it attempting to deny Wizards their business... -While this is neither here nor there, that doesn't change the fact. Good luck anyway, though.
Delendir 07-24-07, 06:58 AM	The wiki is not making a profit, nor is it attempting to deny Wizards their business, quite the opposite. First, let me say, I have nothing personally against the wiki. I have already used it personally and found it very useful. But that said, what you are saying is contradictory, since if the wiki provides information that is directly proportional to a WotC supplement then you are actually denying them business. All it actually requires is that you provide some of the information contained in a WotC product and you are actively stepping on their business. I'm familiar with this problem myself, since I'm using mediawiki as a handy storage medium for information on my own campaign world, one which I hope to make public at some point, and adding aspects from WotC supplements (such as incarnum, binders, etc.) can easily violate WotC copyright. It makes it hard to make a cohesive project without stepping on anyone's toes and without your own material turning out to be lacking. It all boils down to the individual copyright laws of different countries and what exactly is considered copyrighted material. From personal experience, I've both read and studied the finnish copyright law personally, and it's anything but not easy. Which is why we have lawyers I suppose. In any case, I hope the best of luck to the FR wiki.
fw190a8 07-26-07, 07:39 AM	I agree when you say it is complicated Delendir. I did not begin the thread as a copyright discussion, but since it has turned into one, I am happy to provide my input. Hopefully the wiki is being used by people like you, finding its information beneficial to their own campaign, perhaps putting a summary of information from several sources in a single place, and providing the necessary page numbers to find out more, or perhaps supplementing the knowledge of a novel-reader, enhancing their enjoyment and understanding. It should not be possible to use the wiki as an alternative to the source materials, nor would anyone want it to be used in this way. Copyright infringement is often very subjective and based on the situation at hand, as you say. I could be breaching copyright merely by stating, "Waterdeep is a city on the Sword Coast," although such a claim would be bordering on the ridiculous. At the other extreme, the reproduction or unlawful distribution of an entire sourcebook would no doubt be considered a copyright infringement in all circumstances. I stand by my original wording, since the wiki is indeed not making a profit, nor is its intention to step on Wizards' business. I accept that any public representation of any form of anything published by Wizards is going to constitute "stepping on their business" although everyone at the project has the best of intentions and wants to bring the Realms to more people. As was mentioned earlier, if Wizards express any objections then we will comply.
Wenin 07-26-07, 10:11 AM	I have purchased reference books because they were referenced on the wiki. I did this in order to gain the complete information that the real sourcebook provides. In fact the site has helped reignited my interest in FR canon in the last year, which brought me back to reading the FR novels. I hadn't read an FR novel for more than 10 years. In the past year I've read at least nine through my local library. I need to purchase the next two I plan on reading and will be donating them to the library. If someone is wanting to avoid paying for sourcebooks by using the information provided by the wiki, that same person could garner the same amount of information just by posing a question to this forum or the Candlekeep forum. If the Wookieepedia site is still up and running and hasn't fallen to an lawsuit from George Lucas' (one that is very well known for protecting the rights to Star Wars) lawyers, than I feel pretty safe to predict that FR Wiki won't be bothered by WOTC.
Red_Wizard 07-26-07, 11:18 AM	The problem remains that most people finding info on Wiki-- or any other site offering copywritten information-- do so to avoid buying the books not to jog their memory. Some, like yourself may indeed have been re-inspired by the information found there, but for most it is simply another dodging tool for avoiding the high price of increasingly weaker products. For the most part, if we need to reference the material, we'll simply grab our hard copies and flip to the page. The internet takes away the need to own the material, and thus Hasbro loses money. Losing money means decrease in quality, and I'm sure we have all noticed and complained at least once on that front. The other major source for uncontrollable trouble lies in torrents, and the PDF's they offer for free.
fw190a8 07-26-07, 11:48 AM	The problem remains that most people finding info on Wiki-- or any other site offering copywritten information-- do so to avoid buying the books not to jog their memory. That's really just an assumption on your part. If that is indeed the case, it is very sad, but I am confident that it is not. For the most part, if we need to reference the material, we'll simply grab our hard copies and flip to the page. Which page is that? In particular, it can be a problem to locate specific information mentioned in passing, and therefore not listed in the index or the table of contents. In a case where information on a single topic spans multiple sourcebooks, it is not always straightforward to find. If you have an incomplete collection, you would not be able to flip to pages in books you don't own. The wiki helps in these respects by noting what sourcebooks and pages you would need to reference. The internet takes away the need to own the material, and thus Hasbro loses money. Losing money means decrease in quality, and I'm sure we have all noticed and complained at least once on that front. This comment is based upon your opening comment, which assumes that the majority of people using the wiki will be using it to avoid purchasing Wizards products. Linking the two, it appears you allege here that the wiki is lowering the quality of Wizards' publications. I don't believe your opening comment is true so neither do I believe this one is true. I would counter that the wiki is making more people aware of the Realms and D&D in a day and age where electronic gadgets are everywhere and people seem (in my own opinion) less likely to want to sit around a table playing a pen and paper game. This increased awareness could only do the Realms further good. The other major source for uncontrollable trouble lies in torrents, and the PDF's they offer for free. I can see how this might be a problem, because this is making entire sourcebooks available for free, similar to music or movie piracy, and would be a direct substitute for buying the product from Wizards. I think that this menace is quite large although I don't know a great deal about it.
Red_Wizard 07-26-07, 01:31 PM	That's really just an assumption on your part. If that is indeed the case, it is very sad, but I am confident that it is not. It is the case for all things available on the net. Look at music. The purchasing of music has dropped drastically in the last several years as things such as napster, limewire, and torrents have made these things readily available to the public. If we can get what we want for free, why would we pay for it? I'd wager you yourself have more than a few "free" things, and that is perfectly natural. Maybe the industry doesn't approved, but it is a fact of life in this day and age. Which page is that? In particular, it can be a problem to locate specific information mentioned in passing, and therefore not listed in the index or the table of contents. In a case where information on a single topic spans multiple sourcebooks, it is not always straightforward to find. If you have an incomplete collection, you would not be able to flip to pages in books you don't own. The wiki helps in these respects by noting what sourcebooks and pages you would need to reference. My argument to this is why on earth would you be running a campaign in an area you have no information on? You have obviously not planned at all if this is the case, at which point it is not the responsibility of others to pick up your DMing slack. *My "you" is generalized, and not specifically directed at anyone. I own the books, not just from a DM standing, but from a major Fan standing. Occasionally when I'm at work I'll browse info to jog my memory, but for the most part I have what I need in hard copy when i need it. If a person needs the information, they should be willing to buy it's source. If you are unwilling to buy the source, then you don't NEED the info. Simple fact. This comment is based upon your opening comment, which assumes that the majority of people using the wiki will be using it to avoid purchasing Wizards products. Linking the two, it appears you allege here that the wiki is lowering the quality of Wizards' publications. I don't believe your opening comment is true so neither do I believe this one is true. I would counter that the wiki is making more people aware of the Realms and D&D in a day and age where electronic gadgets are everywhere and people seem (in my own opinion) less likely to want to sit around a table playing a pen and paper game. This increased awareness could only do the Realms further good. I do not suggest it is solely the fault of your site, but it is in conjunction with all pirated material that it becomes an issue. For us here on the community boards to willing jeopardize the continued production of our beloved setting seems counter productive at best. There has been a drastic drop in the quality of canon content in the last few years, and it happens to coincide flawlessly with an increase in ease of acquisition of free online material. The amount of people who come here asking for us to tell them all about a prestige class, a spell list, or a specific area is off the charts. This is frowned upon by Wizards, and were we to do it regardless, it would mean one less product sold to an interested customer. Whether you wish to see it or not, people who get stuff for free once, continue wanting it for free later. People don't want to pay for what others will simply give them, and it has become expected of many that free is what all the information they want is going to cost. I personally don't wish to support such a thing, and many here have decided similarly the last three times someone came here asking for assistance with this project. I can see how this might be a problem, because this is making entire sourcebooks available for free, similar to music or movie piracy, and would be a direct substitute for buying the product from Wizards. I think that this menace is quite large although I don't know a great deal about it. But it is small sources that get the ball rolling. You host tidbits of information that seem harmless on the surface. But, then another site might host the first few levels of a PrC, and another the whole class itself. The internet has everything most people want, so in time people will find it. What may seem like innocent helpful notes on wiki now, will eventually lead to little Timmy grabbing the first torrent his google search turns up of the book he wants. Contrary to your belief, he will NOT go walking in the heat or cold to the store to spend $50 on the source book when his brief galavant on the net offered up nicely all he needed.
fw190a8 07-26-07, 01:49 PM	While I certainly admire your dedication to the integrity of our hobby (some might say "lifestyle") and the conviction with which you make your points in this discussion, I have to respectfully disagree with you on many points (with the notable exception of PDF piracy), although I have nothing further to add, nor do I think it would be productive at all for me to continue this particular discussion.
Meldread 07-27-07, 08:07 AM	I love the Wiki's and regularly use them to help find information. I've even purchased several sourcebooks listed to obtain information that is more detailed. Really, it's impossible for me to find all the information I need when it is spread between three or four books, sometimes a book will have nothing more than a paragraph. Because of this, it often isn't listed in the Table of Contents, making it impossible to find unless I literally read the book from cover to cover. A wiki acts as both a summary of information and an index. It is also helpful because at times they link to the Wizard's site that occasionally has information on obscure areas that can't be found in a sourcebook. I also find it helpful to the community, because when someone requests information about something I can visit a Wiki that will assist me in locating the page numbers in various books. I can then jump to those books, flip to the pages, read the information and respond. Really, a wiki is nothing but beneficial to the community. To say it is harmful is akin to saying Ed Greenwood is poisoning the community because he frequently answers questions about the setting over at Candlekeep. After all, why buy a source book when you can just ask Ed! The same goes for these forums, a place where we regularly help each other out with information that we find lacking. A wiki is just the natural extension of the community, serving as a central repository for information and a jumping off point to find more.
Red_Wizard 07-27-07, 08:56 AM	*Sigh* Ok, If I am in a rush to find info on any topic the natural course of progression-- targeted towards ease, and time efficiency-- is as follows. 1) Goolge search the topic in question. 2)Scan as many pages as possible for complete info. Found it? You're done, wizard's looses money, no product purchased No info? Move to step 3). 3)Google search the source of the topic. 4)Google search the source itself in hopes of finding someone hosting the pages you need, or the PDF itself. Found it? You're done, wizard's looses money, no product purchased No info? Move to step 5). 5) Google search a Torrent with the PDF of the source in question. 6) Download Torrent, often in a bundle with multiple other PDF's Tadaa, I have found what I wanted, spending perhaps half an hour in doing so, and all from the comfort of my home. And I might note, never spending a dime to get it... Now tell me that because two people have bought sources after looking for info, what I say is not the norm. I can name a dozen people right now who are most likely using something pirated in this building, and a dozen more who have only pirated PDF's when we play DnD. Fact's suck, but they remain just that.
Meldread 07-27-07, 09:39 AM	I am not sure what pirated PDF's have to do with the Wiki. It is designed to help the community, and does not support piracy. Regardless of the Wiki's existence the PDF's will still be downloaded. You go through way to many steps. You can simply go to the Wiki to find a summary of what you need, find the books that it is printed in and purchase the books. Really, most of the piracy is Wizards fault. If they actually had a sensible digital distribution program they could reach a much larger audience, lower the prices on their products, and produce them for less than half the cost. It costs a lot of money to have all those books printed. You reach people who might not otherwise be interested in D&D, and lets face it, more and more games are moving online now-a-days. You could argue that it would make it easier for people to pirate the PDFs, but my response to that is: They are doing it right now. Look at how piracy has changed the music industry. They fought it, but more and more you see people selling CDs and songs online than actually buying CDs. In fact, last I heard CDs are going the way of the A-Track and Tape Cassette. Wizard's should learn from the music industry, don't fight the net (you'll lose) embrace it and flourish. In fact, I don't know why Wizard's doesn't have a premium service on their website where people can sign up and log on. For $5 per month you'd get great deals on all Wizard's D&D products, access to use their online D&D gaming service (a Virtual Table Top), a virtual D&D Meet Up (for games both in person and online), and access to weekly articles detailing information about your favorite setting, and much more. Hell I'd pay $10 a month for that. You throw in PDF's with all the good stuff (good bookmarking and the like) and I'll be worshiping at the Wizard's altar for a long time to come. (And probably spend a crap load of money in the process.)
Red_Wizard 07-27-07, 10:05 AM	I am not saying that some companies are not capitalizing on the loss of interest in hard copies, but as for how you are not seeing what I am saying-- without trying to be rude-- I don't see how I can simplify it any further. You say you go to wiki, find something interesting, then go buy the book. Congrats, one person means what to the how many that will grab a torrent thats free rather than forking out the hard earned cash to buy the source? Wiki, pasted into my example is the initial site for the process. I am not saying it directly influences the downloading of PDF's, but if I can find the info I need on Wiki, why buy it? If I can get a PDF for free, why pay for it in hard or soft copy? The answer is simple, most wouldn't. You say there are to many steps, but the process I outlined is far simpler than what you suggest, by leaving you home to purchase a product. Reality is that free is always going to trump bought in most peoples minds.
Wenin 07-27-07, 10:16 AM	Red Wizard, you should really stop coming to these forums and supporting an information base that leads to WOTC loosing money. /rolleyes Facts do suck, like the fact that the information is readily available even without the wiki.... and come from the very finger tips of those who actually write the material when you look to who posts over at Candlekeep. Or the fact that if someone is doing that much research to find out information about the Forgotten Realms is a realms fan. Fans buy stuff, some more than others, but ultimately they all buy something. Then there is the fact that the wiki will never supply anything near as much information as you can get from the sourcebooks themselves. How many people read the cliff notes instead of the book itself? The cliff notes are cheaper, and easily obtainable at a bookstore. With the bookstores having coffee shops and comfortable chairs, I'm sure you could read a cliff note pamphlet in a couple hours. Then there is the fact that we have TWO people in this thread that have stated they have bought MORE because of the wiki. Show us someone that has ran their Forgotten Realms campaign without buying a single book, but instead strickly uses the wiki.... hell I'll even let the purchase of the FRCS slide. So go ahead, give us more of your indignate sighs. Your frustrations and fears of the changes technology has on society aren't interesting. Ten years ago, people like you were concerned that people would buy less books, and read less because of the Internet, before that it was the TV.... when in fact people read more today than any other time in the past. The Forgotten Realms is an amazing setting. If someone is wanting to run a Forgotten Realms campaign, they must be really liking the setting. This is a hobbie of passion. A wiki won't typically satisfy someone's passion. FYI, I know someone that has tried to run a campaign via the Star Wars wiki (which is more extensive than the FR wiki), and there are six movies out about the setting. Guess what? He's buying sourcebooks, novels and graphic novels.
Red_Wizard 07-27-07, 11:20 AM	Red Wizard, you should really stop coming to these forums and supporting an information base that leads to WOTC loosing money. /rolleyes I don't support any information base for them to lose money. If I did, then I sure as hell wouldn't have 3 book cases and a chair filled with Realms, and Realms related material. I am one of those dedicated-- some might say ****-- fans that has to own every piece of Realms material that has been, or will be published. However I am not a moron by any stretch of even the poorest imaginations, and can clearly see that not everyone will purchase as dedicatedly as myself. The way I suggest is a common practice for people who are interested in playing the setting, but only in passing, and not interested in owning the material in hard copy. Facts do suck, like the fact that the information is readily available even without the wiki.... and come from the very finger tips of those who actually write the material when you look to who posts over at Candlekeep. I was not stating that Wiki was the only one. If you'll read again more carefully, you'll see quite clearly I generalized and was careful not to single it out, save when a specific example was required. Or the fact that if someone is doing that much research to find out information about the Forgotten Realms is a realms fan. Fans buy stuff, some more than others, but ultimately they all buy something. Not all fans buy stuff, and people might be looking for the information for other reasons. I personally play on a Play-by-post forum and in that situation, many people there would prefer to have PDF over hard copy, as they can reference what they need on the fly, rather than looking through sources. This is where places such as Wiki come in. If I can go to Wiki and find one small thing, or many small things to answer my question, why even bother getting the source? It doesn't make sense to do more than you have to, and buying something you can get online for free is doing a good deal more. How is this hard to comprehend? Then there is the fact that the wiki will never supply anything near as much information as you can get from the sourcebooks themselves. Never said it did. But it is a gateway source, telling enough for the basics, and leading people to search further for the more detailed outlets they seek. How many people read the cliff notes instead of the book itself? The cliff notes are cheaper, and easily obtainable at a bookstore. With the bookstores having coffee shops and comfortable chairs, I'm sure you could read a cliff note pamphlet in a couple hours. Point being? Cliffs notes have their uses, and if you note are only the basis of the steps I outlined. Then there is the fact that we have TWO people in this thread that have stated they have bought MORE because of the wiki. Show us someone that has ran their Forgotten Realms campaign without buying a single book, but instead strickly uses the wiki.... hell I'll even let the purchase of the FRCS slide. Two people hardly count on the whole, when the average interested person would rather get a free PDF, than buy a book they might not like. Also, I have not claimed that one can run a whole campaign from Wiki at ANY point in this thread. However, I do know many people who have run entire campaigns from their laptops with only PDF's. So go ahead, give us more of your indignate sighs. The "Sigh" was directed at the general inability to see something simple I am trying to politely bring accross to those associated with Faerun-wiki. Your frustrations and fears of the changes technology has on society aren't interesting. Ten years ago, people like you were concerned that people would buy less books, and read less because of the Internet, before that it was the TV.... when in fact people read more today than any other time in the past. I have no fears of technology, and I would kindly ask you keep your limited and incorrect opinions on who and what you think I am to yourself if you must have them at all. Moving forward in technology is something I wholly support, however I still prefer the feel of hard copies, over the eye strain of e-books. They are handy, but should never replace the real pieces of literature many will agree are the superior form of presentation. The Forgotten Realms is an amazing setting. If someone is wanting to run a Forgotten Realms campaign, they must be really liking the setting. This is a hobbie of passion. A wiki won't typically satisfy someone's passion. Not so. They could be wanting to try something new. I might wish to play an Ebberon campaign, but should I then go an purchase all the sources? Unlikely. FYI, I know someone that has tried to run a campaign via the Star Wars wiki (which is more extensive than the FR wiki), and there are six movies out about the setting. Guess what? He's buying sourcebooks, novels and graphic novels. Congrats. They were morons for trying to undertake such a campaign, and failure was inevietable. Again, I did not say anywhere that one could run a whole campaign from Wiki. I also did not say that all Faerun material used had to be done for DnD. Novels, Creative writing, online RP, or generalized debate are all outlets FR knowledge can be applied to.
Wenin 07-27-07, 11:26 AM	Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we don't understand the point you are making. You talk like you know the facts, when you don't. You have no idea how many people are using the wiki, these forums and PDFs to run their campaigns. Then you need to also factor in the number of people that are buying more source material because of the the wiki. Cause you need to know all of that, to support your conclusion that wiki's are the gateway to PDF downloading, which is bringing a downfall to pen and paper RPGs. Oh and you'd have to ignore that the RPG industry has a ton more settings these days than they did 20 years ago. Also ignore the huge popularity of MMORPGs that are competeing for the time and resources of the same type of people. Then take into consideration that these days if a company isn't making a certain growth percentage in revenue each year, you're going to hear doom and gloom about how bad that market is, since they are comparing it to more successful markets. Why invest money into an industry that is returning a low profit, when you can invest that money in industries returning much higher profit?
Wenin 07-27-07, 11:31 AM	Take your rampage against PDF downloading someplace else, it has no place in this thread. Oh and you're just a peach when it comes to being polite. Slippery slope arguements are weak from the beginning.
Meldread 07-27-07, 12:16 PM	Red_Wizard- I understand what you are saying perfectly. I just think you're wrong. It is within WotC's power to curb pirating, increase sales, and generally improve their business. In fact, dare I say, some people work daily on that very job. I do not blame the internet or the fans for any trouble WotC has - I blame WotC. Why? Because they are a business and as such it is their job to make money. They exist in a world of constant change and innovation, if they lack the ability to keep pace with the change then they will ultimately fail. That is not the fault of the people, but the fault of the company. Now, I certainly do not wish for WotC to go out of business. I want to see them be successful for generations to come, but neither will I shed a tear if they go under due to incompetence. I do not blame Wiki's, PDF's, Google or the Internet. Why should I when there are examples of thriving businesses who have overcome the problems WotC now faces? They are not even trying to pave the way into a new era, simply follow those who have already gone before. So really, if you wish to help WotC then I think the best thing that can be done is to point them in the direction that they need to be heading. Attacking a Wiki would not be beneficial to them at all.
Red_Wizard 07-27-07, 03:04 PM	The problem I am seeing repeatedly here is that you seem to think I am attacking this one little Wiki. I could care less about this one, or any other. It is in mass that I make the observation, and in general my remarks are made. I was merely pointing out to the OP, and now apparently to you two, simply why we here on the FR boards are for the most part disinclined to aid in the furthering of this particular pet project. If you have in some way taken this dialogue as being mean, vindictive, snarky, rude, rampaging or any combination of words in between that is your business and none of my concern. I won't profess to be a pleasant person, nor am I here to hold hands and blow rainbows up the nethers of those involved. I am here to discuss the setting, add what I can, take away what I didn't know and point out what need be as the occasion arises. I will note however if you are somehow managing to sulk over what you perceive to be annoyed now, I wouldn't recommend setting foot in the real world anytime soon. Disagree if you will, that yet remains your prerogative, I don't need to convince you of anything. I was making a statement based upon observed facts. No I have not made pie charts for you, nor will I ever. The point remains that most here are uninterested in making available to the larger public free material that the average fan must pay for. I am not arguing the ethics behind pirating books, sources, music, or videos, and will leave such opinions where they belong. Off these boards. For the final time, making well sure to be clear for you, this has been solely a session of answering the repeated request for aid on adding to online free material. Congrats, you wish to be part of it. Lets move on.
Wenin 07-27-07, 04:08 PM	Well there was a time when a group of ignorant people observed the fact that the Sun rises in the east and sets in the west, and then concluded that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Stick to your slippery slope position, ignore the fair use laws, and feel comforted that I rather enjoy chuckling at arrogant people, so I'm not at all annoyed. I'm entertained.
Dielzen 07-27-07, 04:26 PM	I own 98% of all 2e/3e FR books, as well as some products that aren't specifically FR but have info on it. I'm not a walking encyclopedia/almanac/whatever -- something like the Realms Timeline PDF and/or Wiki is helpful for remembering which of my 100s of products contains the info I need. I have copies of all my books in PDF format, and I can tell you that PDFs work for quick ref, but when it comes to cross ref, campign developing, reading, etc., you need to have 5 books open at once and flip between them to merge coherent thoughts. If you're going to assume the worst of everyone, live in fear. I prefer to worry only about myself and try to help others instead of telling everyone how bad "society" is.
Red_Wizard 07-28-07, 10:59 AM	I own 98% of all 2e/3e FR books, as well as some products that aren't specifically FR but have info on it. And this is to mean to me? I am sure there are at least a dozen people on this board that can claim a similar feat. It is irrelevant to what I was saying. I'm not a walking encyclopedia/almanac/whatever -- something like the Realms Timeline PDF and/or Wiki is helpful for remembering which of my 100s of products contains the info I need. Wiki is a generalized thing. If it contains piece by piece breakdowns of every book detailing thuroughly all the parts, then it is clearly breeching copyright. However, as it lingers on the precipace of lawsuits it is not so specific as to help me find that one small piece of random lore, that I think I remember in one book. (this is of course an example, and not me stating my inability to find something therein) My point being is that you should be able to remember from titles of books and an idea of what the topic was generally about to find thesource it is in. I could understand if there was one large alminac of all the Realms-lore ever created, with no discernable pattern to the layout of lore, but that is not the case. I have copies of all my books in PDF format, and I can tell you that PDFs work for quick ref, but when it comes to cross ref, campign developing, reading, etc., you need to have 5 books open at once and flip between them to merge coherent thoughts. Again, I need to know this because? I have PDF's aswell, they are quite handy for locating little tidbits on the fly. However your example of why you need hardcopies is a poor one, as you could simply flip between open PDF's far faster. It would also mean you'd not have to move to seek your books. Not saying it is a bad thing that you do thus, simply that becase you choose to own Hardcopies, does not mean the majority of only SEMI-INTERESTED people will follow suit. Again it doesn't make sense for anyone not 100% interested to purchase something they may not like. I don't own a car, cause I don't need one. Would be more than a might silly of me to pay for one then if all I intended in for it's use was a single drive, and then it would sit somewhere. If you're going to assume the worst of everyone, live in fear. I prefer to worry only about myself and try to help others instead of telling everyone how bad "society" is. Last time I checked, I don't remeber turning this into a political debate. Nor do I remember making it a Debate at all. Funny how now three people feel the need to make it so. The goal was to help illustrate for those who didn't quite understand why it is some of us did not want to participate in the furthering of the wiki project. I was not saying any one Shouldn't, nor that anyone wouldn't. I was not calling you "bad people", or industry haters trying to take on "the man". I was pointing out that some of us see how this can easily be seen as copyright infringement, and how it can lead to the loss of money for Wizards/ Hasbro. No money, means no Books, plain and simple. You can argue 'til you're blue in the face that this is Wizards issue and they should capitilize on the online market, moving away from the costly hardcopies. But this isn't solving a problem, so much as justifying the pot stirring you do with a wiki site like this. Many of us want the hard books, and are not helping with sites such as Wiki so as to be able to keep them. Very simple concept I promise. Well there was a time when a group of ignorant people observed the fact that the Sun rises in the east and sets in the west, and then concluded that the Sun revolved around the Earth. And there was a time when a certain Spanish explorer held a theory that the Earth was round, and that he could sail the opposite way to the new world to prove it. Yet despite all we know of the past, there yet remains those foolish few that believe his landing was done somewhere other than where it truthfully was. Say I don't know, modern day USA :rolleyes: I digress, while history can be a fun topic for discussion, it is off topic here, and non Realmsian in nature. Let's move along shall we? Stick to your slippery slope position, ignore the fair use laws, and feel comforted that I rather enjoy chuckling at arrogant people, so I'm not at all annoyed. I'm entertained. I suppose I should get all in a huff over this huh? Perhaps you are used to dealing the vast majority of simple, ignoranrt, closeminded people this world holds in abundance. Tell me something though. I'll fully admit to being arrogant, but what makes you think simplicity of the mind is a better trait? Personally I choose being able to differenciate between simple diaglogue, and a need to start a debate for some deep seeded chest puffing need. Let me know when the light in that empty space between your ears clicks on, and maybe this thread can be salvaged.
Wenin 07-29-07, 03:43 AM	LOL for someone wanting move on, you certainly keep coming back. It has already been clearly said that your point has been understood, just disagreed with when it comes to the effect of a wiki. Keep to your narrow selection of facts, and try to enjoy calling others simple minded. LOL Slippery slope arguements are an excellent indicator of a simple mind. Another good indicator is arrogance, along with other traits you've displayed in this thread.
Red_Wizard 07-29-07, 11:02 AM	LOL for someone wanting move on, you certainly keep coming back. I like to see what I begin through to the end, and this should have reached its end long ago. Simply because you have ceased making any valid point on any aspect of a debate you were happy to create, doesn't in turn mean that in some way all others must draw to a close on a similar failing note. One can only assume then that you no longer have anything of import to put forth, to which I suggested leaving it where it was, and not bogging it down further with your pointless driblle. It has already been clearly said that your point has been understood, just disagreed with when it comes to the effect of a wiki. Which is where I had left it on the last page. That of course is when the peanut gallery arrived, and started arguing nothing. Keep to your narrow selection of facts, and try to enjoy calling others simple minded. LOL Apparently we differ on our definitions of narrow selection also. You see I pointed out something simple, within the parametres of what was required. The fact you have chosen to ignore and then argue on things that need not be debated is irrelevant at based, and a waste of time on any other point. Slippery slope arguements are an excellent indicator of a simple mind. Another good indicator is arrogance, along with other traits you've displayed in this thread. lmao. So your argument to counter my observation of simplicity, is making a random statement like slippery slope, throwing in a word like arrogant, and somehow drawing the conclusion that that brings me down to your level? I'd say keep trying, but i'll most likey eventually get tired of talking to someone who'd be better off copying his text straight from a picture book, than attempt to undertake a relativly simple task himself.
Wenin 07-29-07, 11:29 AM	You've already admitted that you're arrogant, and it is very clear that you don't seem to comprehend that people can understand the other side of the arguement but still disagree. There is nothing further to present to you, since your own admitted arrogance would make any effort as successful as talking to a brick wall. It is entertaining that you can't even recognize the slippery slope of your point. Continue to wear your blinders and look at the limited facts you wish to, and you'll go far in life.
Red_Wizard 07-30-07, 09:23 AM	You've already admitted that you're arrogant, and it is very clear that you don't seem to comprehend that people can understand the other side of the arguement but still disagree. Comprehension of your position is not my problem. I have since last posting asked several neutral parties to review the thread in the off chance I was at fault for missing something, and they seem to concur that I have not been forcing upon you or anyone else my opinions. I have stated clearly that you are allowed to think, act, and aid as you will in regards to Wiki and anything else. It has been your choice alone to ignore these words. My position was one of explanation for the responses received from posters here on the forums regarding aid, and the OP seemed to be content to leave off on a good note with an agree to disagree. It is unfortunate that there yet remain simpletons who choose to derail topics with petty needs, but that is the case, and you are the perpetrator. There is nothing further to present to you, since your own admitted arrogance would make any effort as successful as talking to a brick wall. You live in a small world indeed to equate arrogance with a closed mind. In some cases this remains true, and for me to argue otherwise would seem pointless as not having met me it would become a "Yes I am, no your not" argument. But it is by no means a fact, and you should take a step back and figure this one small thing out for yourself sometime. Also, there is no need to convince me of anything. I was making a statement regarding the opinions of most, and it was you and a few others who chose to take it as a debate, or an attack on your pass time. What you do with your free time is irrelevant, those of us who have said no do so for the reasons noted. It's quite simple. It is entertaining that you can't even recognize the slippery slope of your point. Continue to wear your blinders and look at the limited facts you wish to, and you'll go far in life. Well apparently it isn't lost to you, so may you sleep well knowing that you can see magical little things that are not there. I'll admit I always find it amusing to watch people with less wit and intellect than small child trying, to sound all important, or demeaning in a thread. They often walk away thinking they have won some great victory of the mind, when in truth they have left a wake of mocking readers who will always have trouble taking them seriously. I suppose now I should wait patiently for another of your equally unimaginative posts. Maybe this time it'll be as simple as you saying "you're dumb" and leaving. Then again two simple words back to back seem more than you can comfortably handle in a single sitting-- least ways not without being submitted to the nonsense you have thus far been spouting.
Wenin 07-30-07, 10:15 AM	Originally Posted by Wenin You've already admitted that you're arrogant, and it is very clear that you don't seem to comprehend that people can understand the other side of the arguement but still disagree. Comprehension of your position is not my problem. I have since last posting asked several neutral parties to review the thread in the off chance I was at fault for missing something, and they seem to concur that I have not been forcing upon you or anyone else my opinions. LOL who said you were forcing your opinion on anyone? LOL We're all free to read or not read a thread. Comprehension is clearly a problem of yours. You see, when you felt the need to repeat your point, and add in a little zing of ... I don't see how I can simplify it any further. ....clearly shows that you don't understand that people can understand your point and still disagree. You are such a peach. hehehe But it is small sources that get the ball rolling. You host tidbits of information that seem harmless on the surface. But, then another site might host the first few levels of a PrC, and another the whole class itself. The irony in your posts are very amusing. Where do balls roll? Down hills.... or... down slopes right? LOL That isn't even your only reference to the slippery slope. You are also the person that went off topic by bringing in illegal downloads of PDFs. In order to have that be on topic you have to prove that a wiki is illegal, but then to do that you would have to be judging... which you later in the thread said you are not wanting to do. I'll admit I always find it amusing to watch people with less wit and intellect than small child trying, to sound all important, or demeaning in a thread. They often walk away thinking they have won some great victory of the mind, when in truth they have left a wake of mocking readers who will always have trouble taking them seriously. I'm sure you're very familiar with that feeling. I suppose now I should wait patiently for another of your equally unimaginative posts. Maybe this time it'll be as simple as you saying "you're dumb" and leaving. Then again two simple words back to back seem more than you can comfortably handle in a single sitting-- least ways not without being submitted to the nonsense you have thus far been spouting. Oh was that your 4th or 5th very wordy "you're dumb" statement in this thread? Oh the irony, it's just so juicy.
Red_Wizard 07-30-07, 11:24 AM	LOL who said you were forcing your opinion on anyone? LOL We're all free to read or not read a thread. You're entire argument is based on the fact that you assume I am wrong, misinformed, narrow-minded, shortsighted, and all other way's of saying "Not in the Know", when it comes to what Wiki is all about. My point is not whether this is the case-- as it is ultimately irrelevant-- it is simply me pointing out to you WHY there are those of us who don't want any part of this. It was not a debate by any stretch of the imagination, nor me asking for yours or anyones opposing opinion. It was an explanation for those out there who chose to persist in asking, without answering with a blunt NO in return. I could have done this, in turn saving you the trouble of looking foolish below, but I figured that being blunt would get the message across. For you apparently not. Comprehension is clearly a problem of yours. I'd point out that it is in fact you who are getting lost on the matter, but you clearly have missed this fact repeatedly on your own, so showing you your mistake seems to have little hope for success. You see, when you felt the need to repeat your point, and add in a little zing of ... I don't see how I can simplify it any further. ....clearly shows that you don't understand that people can understand your point and still disagree. You are such a peach. hehehe I was not looking for you to agree with the point, I was looking for you to comprehend that this was an opinion shared for the most part by the people saying NO. Your arguing the matter is what shows me that you failed to see this for what it was. Again I state-- with the distant hope of it sinking in this time around-- This IS NOT A DEBATE, this was me saying NO with an explanation as to why. That is where you fail to understand, and why I do not see how it can be simplified further. The irony in your posts are very amusing. Where do balls roll? Down hills.... or... down slopes right? LOL That isn't even your only reference to the slippery slope. So you are saying that because I used a common phrase to help illustrate a valid point, it makes it a slippery slope argument? How delightfuly simple of you. What then would you say had I said "Wiki is a site that sets people forth on the path to further breaking the copyright"? You would most likely respond with paths are never straight, they go up and down. Thus there must then be a slope, and a slope could be slippery in the rain. Am I close to how you like to stretch for things not there? You are also the person that went off topic by bringing in illegal downloads of PDFs. If you took a second to read anything I have said, you can clearly note that the PDF remarks are in fact pertaining to what I was stating. Thus, it remains on topic in the context of the response to the OP, and the topic of this thread. In order to have that be on topic you have to prove that a wiki is illegal, but then to do that you would have to be judging... which you later in the thread said you are not wanting to do. That is a desperate shot in the dark if I ever saw one, but I'll try for your sake to turn on the light. I do not need to judge to note that which is posted on Wiki is in direct violation of all Realms copyright. It specifically states in the opener of every book that no part of any FR source is open content, and that no part may in anyway be recreated or duplicated without the explicit permission of WoTC. No judging there, it is a simple legal fact proving what you are doing to be illegal. The argument of "Yeah but so-and-so did it first" is not a valid one, nor one that will hold up in an legal system. Also, to clarify for you, the judging I refer to is directed at those who currently work on Wiki, so please make sure your references remain in context with what you are trying to argue. I'm sure you're very familiar with that feeling. Being amused? I am quite familiar indeed with it. Dealing with simpering idiots however is a necessary part of modern life unfortunately, so being amused seems a more productive use of my time. Oh was that your 4th or 5th very wordy "you're dumb" statement in this thread? Oh the irony, it's just so juicy. I am glad you enjoy that, I try my best to amuse those of limited mental capacity. The difference however is that from you it would mean nothing, as there would be no ground from which you could make such a fanciful claim. I however can comfortably state such as you have proved yourself time and again here intellectually stunted by your repeated inability to comprehend what is happening around you. It is no wrong thing to call a horse a horse.
Delendir 07-31-07, 03:58 AM	You've already admitted that you're arrogant, and it is very clear that you don't seem to comprehend that people can understand the other side of the arguement but still disagree. Honestly Wenin, either you're a troll or a moron. There is absolutely nothing to agree or disagree in this matter. The Forgotten Realms Wiki, mentioned by the OP, clearly violates the WotC copyright. And against the typical misconception this is wrong. Period. There are no but's, no maybe's, and no or's. And this is why lots of people, who otherwise would love to take part in the project, do not commit to it. Certainly there is no point in driving several pages of stupid flaming about it, just for your own amusement.
Wenin 08-20-07, 06:08 PM	WoTC maybe resolving this the best possible way..... releasing their own official Wiki. =)
Lord Karsus 08-22-07, 01:25 AM	-RW, if you want to go back in time, and get back all of the time you've wasted here, I'm leaving a Chronomancy scoll over there in the corner. You've earned it, if you choose to use it. ;)