Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sote 08-28-05, 02:41 PM	My campaign is supposed to focus on the Eldreth Veluuthra and their aspirations to rid Toril of mankind using biological warfare (which they have wanted to do for a long time, it seems). As is stated in Champions of Ruin, the supremacist group have found Lossarwyn but are unable to free him from the powerful maze spell that has been cast on him. I do not know how they should go about in freeing him, nor if it's really necessary. Still, what would be most logical way of freeing him? Simply saying that a powerful plane shift spell frees him sounds a bit weak. Maybe the elves would have to find those who cast the spell on Lossarwyn and force them to cooperate somehow (AFAIK, those who did it might even be dead). Anyway, I'd like Lossarwyn to device a most excellent disease and unleash it on Skullport for testing. I figured Skullport would be good because it has a good amount of inhabitants and there are many races besides humans. The Eldreth Veluuthra would prefer a disease that only affects humans, and so they test in on Skullport. Now, there may be extreme difficulties with this. I'm not sure how secure Skullport would be against such an attack, but I suppose that Eldreth Veluuthra could pull if off, even if it'd cost the lives of those setting it in motion (assuming that they are required to be at the scene to do so). Also, when it came to his diseases, Lossarwyn always failed because of difficulties with transmission of the disease. Lossarwyn figured that somehow, magic would have to be involved to make the chosen disease work as effectively as possible. I guess that, somehow, a mythal could be manipulated to spread the disease. This means that the disease doesn't necessarily have to be biological, but perhaps entirely magical. Skullport has a mythal, and Waterdeep is affected by both the Melairshield (a mythal created by elven high mages) and Aghairon's dragonward (not elven-made, but still a mythal). Now, I wonder, from where could Lossarwyn and the Eldreth Veluuthra gather what they'd need for an operation such as this (testing their disease on Skullport and then actually employing the tactic on important cities along the western coast, creating mythals where needed). How/where could Lossarwyn create such a disease? What people would they have to contact? I suppose Maaril the Dragon Mage (since he should know something about Aghairon's dragonward), Halaster (since he should know more about the Melairshield), and the ones that imprisoned Lossarwyn (if dead, they'd have to be brought back somehow) are good potential "allies." If the disease is biological, and not spread by magical means (or at least not entirely by magical means) I suppose it could be spread by a number of ways. I figured that poisoning the water around Waterdeep in time for Auril's Blesstide would be rather novel (having many people running around in white clothing, taking a dip, and then coming up with the disease.) Where could the PCs come in? Currently, I've decided that they are to be brought to Skullport through slavery, on the very day that the Eldreth Veluuthra perform their test. This means that somehow, they are to escape the place when all hell breaks loose. Speaking of which, I haven't really figured out exactly how "all hell breaks loose," though. Any ideas as to the actual effect of the disease (magical, biological, or both, pick your choice)? Do they react to it as if it was V-X poison gas, or should it perhaps be slower, more subtle? Anyway, they're helped out of Skullport and up to Waterdeep by the Eilistraee-worshipping Drow that reside near Skullport. Where to go from there? The PCs could get caught up in more ordinary troubles in Waterdeep, gaining some attention from various good-aligned groups (the Red Sashes, the Harpers, Tel Teukiira, etc). After getting involved more with such groups, perhaps they could start finding leads pointing to the Eldreth Veluuthra (while carrying out missions for whatever organizations they choose to join). I suppose the Ardeep forest is an alright place to start. More things could take place around Neverwinter and Neverwinter Wood as well. And, if Lossarwyn is not freed, the High Forest/Dire Wood is a good place. Of course, Lossarwyn could be freed and still roam the High Forest. Any ideas as how to combine something together and at least make a good start? I also figure that elven PCs should be given the option to join the Eldreth Veluuthra. Perhaps they just can't beat them, and are converted. I think I'd like a campaign where the "evil ones" actually win. The PCs, if they are non-elven, wouldn't have to die - they could flee to other worlds and whatnot. Let's say that the disease has spread throughout the more prominent cities along the western coast of Faerūn (and perhaps in other places). What now? The organisation should try, or at least think about, occupying the places of attack. Now, the Eldreth Veluuthra has never been known to have many members, but I suppose I could go with the "they had more followers than anyone could've ever believed" and bring naval forces from Evermeet to clean up Waterdeep and Neverwinter. Any ideas in general? You're also free to drop in and say that it's a ridiculous plot and that it would never succeed because they'd fail with this and that. Point out as many flaws as possible. It's still a loose set of thoughts, and if you can help me arrange them better, I'd be very happy!
Lucifer Leviathan 08-28-05, 03:08 PM	While I think its an excellent plot, you do kind of leave yourself painted in a corner should the bad guys win on this one. and even if you would like to have your party be more of the evil type without having to wipe out a world.. you could say that they were trying to stop the plot for reasons such as.. they dont like the competition.. or.. the fact they they dont want to rule a poisoned world that there is no one left to serve them. another point of view is this. it would cause a great cataclysm.. but that kind of opens the door for you as a DM NOT to take them to other planes and worlds.. but to stay there.. and let their characters reshape the new world into one that shows things that reflect you and the characters... a bit daunting.. but a fun task none the less... now if we get back to the good guys winning... getting the PC's involved is easy... its simply a case of they stumble across a plot. now.. the trick is.. finding out about it may have been easy... STOPPING it is a whole different story... perhaps you could have the villians find a way to wake Lossarwyn.. the only way to stop the plot is to cut them off before they reach him.. or even if they do wake him.. how do you stop HIM? put him back to sleep? find a way to banish him to another plane or word? and even if you do.. will there be repercussions from that other world that youve sent him to? (ie. high level NPC's dont appreciate the new guest youve laid at their feet) either way you decide to go.. i really like the storyline youve developed so far.. my compliments and good luck
Sote 08-28-05, 03:38 PM	perhaps you could have the villians find a way to wake Lossarwyn.. the only way to stop the plot is to cut them off before they reach him.. or even if they do wake him.. how do you stop HIM? put him back to sleep? Oh, but he is not asleep, he is just stuck in a magical maze. If I were to strictly follow historical events, the Eldreth Veluuthra have already contacted him, and he has been aiding the organization for some time (training them and learning the organization's clerics to receive spells from nature itself, since elven deities won't support them). They have just not struck any real deal with him. He has been betrayed before, at least twice, so maybe he's biding his time until he's sure that he's being approached by true members of the organization, people that really want to aid his cause. another point of view is this. it would cause a great cataclysm.. but that kind of opens the door for you as a DM NOT to take them to other planes and worlds.. but to stay there.. and let their characters reshape the new world into one that shows things that reflect you and the characters... a bit daunting.. but a fun task none the less... Yes, I completely forgot to touch on this. After deploying their powerful disease, it'd start wiping out humans left and right. If the Eldreth Veluuthra have enough sympathizers and members, they could take over important human settlements. How far would they get before surviving humans try to stop them, and what are the stance of the other races on this? The members of Eldreth Veluuthra seem to consider dwarves, gnomes and half-lings peaceful and worthy of being part of the new world they're striving to create... but do these races agree with the organization's actions? Would the dieties let such a thing happen? What about Ao? Perhaps Ao decides that since the Eldreth Veluuthra worked without the aid of dietes (since no diety would accept them), dieties should not be allowed to work against them - leaving it all up to mankind to fight for itself (Tempus not lending them the much-needed aid in battles, and so on). As I see it, Ao lets evil deities aid evil-doers and later allows good deities to work against evil-doers... because this creates a balance between the dieties. If someone acted without any god on his or her side, Ao might not find the need to try to balance it out in anyway. Now, if the Eldreth Veluuthra make great strides and keep conquering, mankind might actually have to slip into the Underdark (and as you said, fleeing to other planes would be giving up and missing out on the time that reshaped Toril). Here's a far-fetched follow-up idea: an uneasy alliance could be forged between mankind and Drow. Perhaps these two could work together. After all, the Drow are second on the list of targets belonging to the Eldreth Veluuthra. When they see realize how great a blow has been struck against mankind, they might agree to cooperate... even if reluctantly. Either way, if the Eldreth Veluuthra succeeds, the aftermath would be very interesting, as you pointed out. Thanks for your comments! And to others, it'd be nice if you shared ideas for this organization in general. Perhaps you could speak of plots you've had in which the Eldreth Veluuthra played an important part. Perhaps some of you have already tried out this kind of a plot? I don't regard it as a typical "conquer the world" plot, even though it runs in the same vein.
Yanagita Kunio 08-28-05, 03:51 PM	Hm. - If you want optimum "all hell breaking loose" I suggest something that has a short incubation...like 4 or 5 hours...before symptoms show, and then progressive decline for a day or two before death. With variance for individual cases, of course. When people flat drop dead, as with nerve agents, they're really isn't time for panic, rioting, doom-saying, and the other hoi-polloi that makes for a good chewy environment. - If the disease fully contagious or does it only affect those directly exposed to the agent? Ie, can an infected person pass it to another person even far away from the ground zero of the epidemic. - Perhaps make Lossarwyn's escape a priori, or make it conditional: he's found a way to slip out of the maze spell for a given period of time [perhaps because an Eldreth member has found a way to stand in form him], but must eventually return. - Lossarwyn might be a druid, but I imagine that an "end justifies the means" ideology would provoke him to figuratively deal with the devil: there are any number of malevolent agents that could "contribute" something nasty to the disease. Just as Lenin once delighted in the idea of crushing the bourgoisie with their own manufactured weapons, the Eldreth Veluuthra might take some poetic glee in killing humans via the agency of one of their own "evil" organizations or religions. - One could look at divine beings such as Talona or any other with a divine portfolio including Disease as candidates. - Alternately, one could have Lossarwyn appropriate some kind of agent from other historical cases of divine-inspired disease/ravage. The Banefog comes to mind. A more perverse take would be something derived from, let's say, the corpse of the dead god Moander. - If the Eldreth were particularly crafty, I could see them exploiting a human organization as a cat's paw/dupe: introducing the idea to them in a slightly different form and not mentioning the sheer deadliness or specific target. - If the first target are some of the larger cities in the North, candidate collaborators might include the Shadow Thieves [grudge against Waterdeep] and The Host Tower of Luskan [ambitious]. - Playing on the dupe idea...imagine if agents of the EV convinced a greedy merchant group that they had the perfect scam: create and spread the disease, then sell the cure. The EV thus sell the idea and the necessary goods to said group [Zhents, Thayans, unscrupulous Amnish or Calimshites] and point them toward the well-populated selected target. For EV it's a win-win situation: they fill their coffers and wipe out humans. - Speaking of vectors--the EV has druids, yes? Then why not make animals one of the carrier methods: works 'cause it's simple.... - One big issue is going to be resolving how your players aren't getting infected, especially if [as queried above] the disease is airborne or aerosol-borne [ie coughing, sneezing, etc]. - Are beings other than non-humans affected by the plague? How about half-elves? The EV hate half-elves passionately. Half-orcs? Drow as opposed to surface elves? Other common races? - Would you be interested in twisting things around...diseases do mutate, and human and elf biology seem to be kissing cousins [evil laugh]. - Also an issue will be what races your party is. - If elves/half-elves, play out the doesn't-affect-elves scenario for simplicity. - If non-humans or half humans, it's your call. You could make them automatically immune, or make the disease run a much slower course in their system...giving them a motive to look into this mess. - If humans, perhaps they represent that natural percentile that are immune as a fluke. - If you want to do the team-up-with-the-bad-guys thing, perhaps the EV use the possibility of a cure [either for the party or for everyone] as leverage to get the PCs squeeling like piggies. - Alternately, you could have the party hunted because they survived or seem to be immune to the disease. - Or having to grudgingly team up with the EV to cure the disease after it jumps the species barrier, as diseases are wont to do. - If you or the group wants to join/ally with the EV, you can figure that out on your own. My skin's just a little too tinted to find playing let's-pretend racial supremacist comfortable. PS Both CoR and LoD describe the EV as thin in numbers; they have elvish supporters the same way that nobody in the South "sees" who lit the burning cross: people that will cover for their misdeeds, and talk about how it's better not to have Those People in the neighborhood, but not necessarily march under their banner in the open. Backing a war of conquest is a very open declaration of alliance, and would mean that whatever elven house/city/nation that did it would be sticking their necks out very far, and well as tacitly supporting the EV's utterly deplorable methods...can you get much more vile than biological warfare and public declaration of an intent to perform genocide? While the EV are written up as despising the drow as much as everybody else, the idea of an alliance with a group devoted to, let's say, Vhaerun seems sort of feasible. Vhaerun wants to retake the surface for the drow, often by capturing it from lesser species [F&P], and also advocates re-assimilation of the drow into the elven society/race. I could see the EV making a distasteful-but-necessary treaty with Vhaerunian drow to get sword arms to back up their manipulations. As for the reactions of other species/races...well, look at the range of responses people had when the first news of what the Nazis were doing to the Jews of Poland and Germany. Some people felt it wasn't their business, some were whole-heartedly for it, others campaigned against it vehemently, some rolled up their sleeves and figured out ways to wringe as much cash as possible from the situation, some were just glad that it wasn't them.
Sote 08-28-05, 04:12 PM	I think you have some very good ideas Yaganita. I will only adress a few of your ideas and points, but I liked them all and I'm taking all of them into mind. The most pressing issue at the moment is how the PCs are supposed to come out un-affected (especially if they're there at the testing, which I've planned). The PC races are as follows: Fey'ri, Half-Orc, Half-Aquatic Elf, and Human. They could survive because the disease isn't perfectly optimized yet, so it wasn't fully working or it wasn't spreading fast enough, or because some are only half-human and some are half-elfs, or because, as you suggested, they are immune to it for some reason. Seeing as there's a full-blooded human in the group, that last idea is interesting. The idea of having the disease work slowly on the PCs isn't bad either, and makes them more motivated as you say. I know other people that may join the campaign later. One of them has made an Avariel Ranger focusing on ranged combat. I'd like to make that one into a Justice of Weald and Woe. With a tragic past related to human misdeeds, he could meet and join the Eldreth Veluuthra and work against the players. Or he could work with the players and be offered the choice to turn on them later on. You suggested that Lossarwyn (or the Eldreth Veluuthra) could trade with someone they would otherwise not deal with. As I mentioned previously, one of the PCs is a Fey'ri (who's supposed to have been born in Evermeet as of now), so maybe the organization struck a deal with a fiend, and the Fey'ri PC is part of the "result" of that deal. Perhaps his fiend father was affliated with Talona. Thanks for your suggestions, I'm considering many of them.
Kadasbrass 08-28-05, 05:25 PM	I've thought about having this same type of campaign, I ran the downloadable adventure Burning Plague from the website and placed it in daggerford and had none of the elfs effected by it. But ended up moving on to another idea for an campaign. I replaced the Orc Cleric at the end with a Drow necromancer who was working with the Eldreth Veluuthra If I was going to do this again this is how I would basically do it (with the exception of starting it in skullport). I am also assuming that should the players discover the true nature of the disease and tell the proper authorities, that no one will believe them except for a secert group that is trying to figth the Eldreth Veluuthra. ------------------------------------------------------------- Stage 1 How about a disease that is fatal to humans, effects non humans but only makes most of them a bit weak for a few days (this way non humans can carry the disease from one city to another), and has no effect on most elves (some elves migth be effected, nothing is perfect you know). The disease 'should' prove fatal to a few non humans humanoids. Lets say that the disease starts off weak when they test it at skullport, they know it is weak but want to see how fast it spreads and effects an area before they magically augment it. The weak version only makes people feel sick, only a handful of people die, and blows over quickly. No one thinks a second thought about it once it 'moves' on, except maybe for some 'strange wacko' who thinks it is a sign of the end of the world... (This could be one way of hooking the players in) The test version could be brought into the city via some sick goblin or kobold slaves, who were just being used to carry the disease into skullport. Stage 2 They test a stronger version later on in some isolated area so it doesn't have a chance to leak into other areas (and warn those areas about a new powerful disease). It does everything the Eldreth Veluuthra hoped for. In less then a week, every single human in the village has died and with them all traces of the disease. (Maybe the players learn of where the Eldreth were going to test the 'plague' but arrive too late [if they are actively figthing the Eldreth], or learn of an town that just seems to have dropped off the face of the earth and or are sent by a distant relative of someone in the village to investigate why their cousin stopped sending them weekly letters.) Stage 3 In the third part the Eldreth Veluuthra are preparing to send vials of the improved disease to every major city in Faerun, so they can unleash it all at once during Shieldmeet (or some other widely practiced important event), leaving humanity with no time to find a cure once the disease is released. (Hopefully at this time the players are actively trying to stop the Eldreth.) But something has occurred that the Eldreth did not count on, the magically improved version of disease is starting to become more powerful on its own. It is now fatal to all races, only the very strong (or the very lucky) can survive its powerful effects. In few remote areas all over Faerun and a handful of cities, the disease quickly pops up and kills off all life before fading out as the Eldreth Veluuthra were unprepared to be effected by their own weapon. Now some unknown hand is pushing the disease forward. It becomes a race against the clock to find the true creator of the disease and to find a cure for it in order to prevent the coming of the apocalypse. ------------------------------------------------ Don't have time to come up with the game mechinics of my disease, I will post them later if you like. In short, the first two versions, humans should get a minis to their saving throw when confronted with the disease, and elves should get a bonus. The disease should inflict str/dex/con damage, with each version inflicting a larger amount in addition to an increasing save DC. Each version of the disease should also have a shorter incubation period then the one before it. The third version should wipe out around 90-95% of the population, figuring 5% of the population (the 'lucky') will 'roll' a natural 20 and those who have really high fort saves (the strong). Those who contract the disease and survive should become immune to its effects untill a stronger version appears.
Karsus the Mad 08-31-05, 11:06 AM	Maybe twist in some other plothooks also. Maybe the Eldreth Veluuthra contacted Lossarwyn because the Sons of Vyshaan are secretly pulling the strings of the organization to rid Faerun of their only real threat to re-establishing their empire. Maybe they seek to dupe Lossarwyn into providing the secrets to drawing upon divine magic without gods. Perhaps Lossarwyn has discovered the secrets of heavy magic during his imprisonment in the Dire Wood, and the Sons of Vyshaan are attempting to learn these secrets in the hopes of somehow usurping divinity for themselves, and thus "avenging" their fall by the Seldarine.
Yanagita Kunio 08-31-05, 08:23 PM	Pardon the ignorance, but who are the Sons of Vyshaan? The latter sounds like a name out of the Crown Wars...one of the kingdoms...but who're they in the current era?
Karsus the Mad 09-01-05, 12:03 AM	Pardon the ignorance, but who are the Sons of Vyshaan? The latter sounds like a name out of the Crown Wars...one of the kingdoms...but who're they in the current era? It's one of the plothook's in LEoF. Some ships of elven design, flying the crest of the Vyshaantar Empire (from during the Crown Wars) have been attacking elven ships from evermeet. It's rumored to be the four Sons of Vyshaan that may have survived the fall the Vyshaantar Empire, or it just may be some pretenders.
Sote 09-03-05, 02:00 PM	Don't have time to come up with the game mechinics of my disease, I will post them later if you like. Sure, I'd like to see your idea.
Kadasbrass 09-03-05, 09:10 PM	Okay I got some time now, these are the three versions I would use. As a side note I thought of another way of spreading the disease, slip in some infected coins into the local economy. If dropped into the rigth areas, a coin can easly pass any where between two to seven different people in a a couple days. These are how I'd set them up if I doing the campaign as explained above. If you want to use these, feel free and edit them as you see fit, I migth even edit them over time. So these are just the basic framework. Stage one (The test version) Infection: Contact Save DC: 12 (humans get a -3 penalty on all saves verse this disease, those of elven blood get a +3 bonus on all saves vs this disease) Incubation: 1d3 Days Damage: 1d3 Str, Dex, and Con; Humans that take ability damage this way take an additional 1 damage to str dex and con scores. All ability damage done this way to those of elven blood is reduce by 1 (Which can result into zero ability damage being inflicted). Stage two Infection: Contact Save DC: 16 (as before; humans get -5 penalty on save, elves get a bonus +5) Incubation: 1d2 days Damage: 1d4 Str, Dex, and Con. Humans take an additional +2 damage to ability scores; Elves have the damage reduced by 1. Stage Three (Out of control version) Infection: Contact Save DC: 23 (No penalties or bonuses on saves based on race) Incubation: 1 day Damage: 2d6 Str, Dex, and Con. No increases or reductions to damage based on race. Setting the DC for the fort saves is a bit tricky. Since the highest lvl character I've ever DM'ed for is 7 or 8, I'm not quite sure what to expect their Fort saves to be at after level 14. I don't really want to set it so high for them all to get infected and die. I want it high enough for some of them to get infected and slow down the group, maybe create a few side adventures as they try and save their 'dieing' comrades.
Ioulaum 09-03-05, 11:00 PM	My campaign is supposed to focus on the Eldreth Veluuthra and their aspirations to rid Toril of mankind using biological warfare (which they have wanted to do for a long time, it seems). As is stated in Champions of Ruin, the supremacist group have found Lossarwyn but are unable to free him from the powerful maze spell that has been cast on him. I do not know how they should go about in freeing him, nor if it's really necessary. Still, what would be most logical way of freeing him? Simply saying that a powerful plane shift spell frees him sounds a bit weak. Maybe the elves would have to find those who cast the spell on Lossarwyn and force them to cooperate somehow (AFAIK, those who did it might even be dead). Anyway, I'd like Lossarwyn to device a most excellent disease and unleash it on Skullport for testing. I figured Skullport would be good because it has a good amount of inhabitants and there are many races besides humans. The Eldreth Veluuthra would prefer a disease that only affects humans, and so they test in on Skullport. Now, there may be extreme difficulties with this. I'm not sure how secure Skullport would be against such an attack, but I suppose that Eldreth Veluuthra could pull if off, even if it'd cost the lives of those setting it in motion (assuming that they are required to be at the scene to do so). Also, when it came to his diseases, Lossarwyn always failed because of difficulties with transmission of the disease. Lossarwyn figured that somehow, magic would have to be involved to make the chosen disease work as effectively as possible. I guess that, somehow, a mythal could be manipulated to spread the disease. This means that the disease doesn't necessarily have to be biological, but perhaps entirely magical. Skullport has a mythal, and Waterdeep is affected by both the Melairshield (a mythal created by elven high mages) and Aghairon's dragonward (not elven-made, but still a mythal). Now, I wonder, from where could Lossarwyn and the Eldreth Veluuthra gather what they'd need for an operation such as this (testing their disease on Skullport and then actually employing the tactic on important cities along the western coast, creating mythals where needed). How/where could Lossarwyn create such a disease? What people would they have to contact? I suppose Maaril the Dragon Mage (since he should know something about Aghairon's dragonward), Halaster (since he should know more about the Melairshield), and the ones that imprisoned Lossarwyn (if dead, they'd have to be brought back somehow) are good potential "allies." If the disease is biological, and not spread by magical means (or at least not entirely by magical means) I suppose it could be spread by a number of ways. I figured that poisoning the water around Waterdeep in time for Auril's Blesstide would be rather novel (having many people running around in white clothing, taking a dip, and then coming up with the disease.) Where could the PCs come in? Currently, I've decided that they are to be brought to Skullport through slavery, on the very day that the Eldreth Veluuthra perform their test. This means that somehow, they are to escape the place when all hell breaks loose. Speaking of which, I haven't really figured out exactly how "all hell breaks loose," though. Any ideas as to the actual effect of the disease (magical, biological, or both, pick your choice)? Do they react to it as if it was V-X poison gas, or should it perhaps be slower, more subtle? Anyway, they're helped out of Skullport and up to Waterdeep by the Eilistraee-worshipping Drow that reside near Skullport. Where to go from there? The PCs could get caught up in more ordinary troubles in Waterdeep, gaining some attention from various good-aligned groups (the Red Sashes, the Harpers, Tel Teukiira, etc). After getting involved more with such groups, perhaps they could start finding leads pointing to the Eldreth Veluuthra (while carrying out missions for whatever organizations they choose to join). I suppose the Ardeep forest is an alright place to start. More things could take place around Neverwinter and Neverwinter Wood as well. And, if Lossarwyn is not freed, the High Forest/Dire Wood is a good place. Of course, Lossarwyn could be freed and still roam the High Forest. Any ideas as how to combine something together and at least make a good start? I also figure that elven PCs should be given the option to join the Eldreth Veluuthra. Perhaps they just can't beat them, and are converted. I think I'd like a campaign where the "evil ones" actually win. The PCs, if they are non-elven, wouldn't have to die - they could flee to other worlds and whatnot. Let's say that the disease has spread throughout the more prominent cities along the western coast of Faerūn (and perhaps in other places). What now? The organisation should try, or at least think about, occupying the places of attack. Now, the Eldreth Veluuthra has never been known to have many members, but I suppose I could go with the "they had more followers than anyone could've ever believed" and bring naval forces from Evermeet to clean up Waterdeep and Neverwinter. Any ideas in general? You're also free to drop in and say that it's a ridiculous plot and that it would never succeed because they'd fail with this and that. Point out as many flaws as possible. It's still a loose set of thoughts, and if you can help me arrange them better, I'd be very happy! Sorry to burst your bubble but your plot got one major plot hole. THE GODS. let me list them out: 1 - Anything that has to do with magic in fr is under Mystra's domain. So a magical diease that is spread by magic or with magical help is going attract her attention, And you what that is going to invole, Her Chosens, who btw are immune to diease. 2 - Talona - as the goddess of diease she is going to know whats happening as soon the diease is develope. And while she like idea of a diease that kills a lot of people she isn't going to be too keen on a diease that will kill all/most her followers. And that brings me to my last point. 3 - the rest of the fr gods. you are talking about a event that will kill 99% of thier followers, they will see this coming way before it happens. Even if the gods can't directly interfer you can bet they will be sending warnings. EV is going find themselves hunted by every Chosen, Priest and Divine Champion of every human god in fr. Mystra, Bane and Cyric might even manage to form a temp alliance and tell everyone of thier followers to go EV hunting.
Sote 09-04-05, 01:25 AM	That's true, but I did adress the dietes earlier in this thread, so I'm already aware of the problem. Now, I could take the easy way out, and just decide that Ao won't let them interfere that much or I could try coming up with a more advanced solution. One reason not to like the FR... all the chosen and meddling gods. ;) I'll see what I can do about them.
Kadasbrass 09-04-05, 04:20 AM	Sorry to burst your bubble but your plot got one major plot hole. THE GODS. let me list them out: 1 - Anything that has to do with magic in fr is under Mystra's domain. So a magical diease that is spread by magic or with magical help is going attract her attention, And you what that is going to invole, Her Chosens, who btw are immune to diease. 2 - Talona - as the goddess of diease she is going to know whats happening as soon the diease is develope. And while she like idea of a diease that kills a lot of people she isn't going to be too keen on a diease that will kill all/most her followers. And that brings me to my last point. 3 - the rest of the fr gods. you are talking about a event that will kill 99% of thier followers, they will see this coming way before it happens. Even if the gods can't directly interfer you can bet they will be sending warnings. EV is going find themselves hunted by every Chosen, Priest and Divine Champion of every human god in fr. Mystra, Bane and Cyric might even manage to form a temp alliance and tell everyone of thier followers to go EV hunting. This is all true. But there are always exceptions. Karsus had the ability to steal some of the powers of the god of magic and the Imaskar Empire had the ability to block at the powers of deities from another plane. From this we can assume that it is possible for a powerful enough mage to be able to keep a deity from learning of the disease's true orgin. Perhaps Talona is aiding in this herself, with a disease she can completly control she can insure the survival of her followers. Maybe Shar, being a deity of secerts, is aiding along with the City of Shade in hoping to 'help' the Eldreth Veluuthra wipe out all surface life (by mistake of course) to make room for a New Netheril. Maybe this is a future Faerun where AO has greatly limited their powers (perhaps after a great holy war threatening the destruction of Toril). Or maybe so many people have stopped following the gods most simply cease to exist and the few remaining are mere demigods. Maybe there are so many problems poping up all over the world that this is just one more drop in a ocean full of trouble, and simply goes unnoticed most gods and their choosen. Never tell a DM "You can't do that." :P
Ioulaum 09-04-05, 12:46 PM	This is all true. But there are always exceptions. Karsus had the ability to steal some of the powers of the god of magic and the Imaskar Empire had the ability to block at the powers of deities from another plane. From this we can assume that it is possible for a powerful enough mage to be able to keep a deity from learning of the disease's true orgin. True, but that was under 2nd ed and this is 3rd ed, different rules apply. And besides where is EV going to find that many powerful wizards willing to help. A good posiblity, but she would still be one goddess every other god in fr. [quote]Maybe Shar, being a deity of secerts, is aiding along with the City of Shade in hoping to 'help' the Eldreth Veluuthra wipe out all surface life (by mistake of course) to make room for a New Netheril. Shar wants to wipe out all life not just human life. killing all of her own human worshippers would be more of a setback then a step forward for goal. City of Shade is evil but not stupid, just because they are now safe form the diease on thier flying city doesn't mean they will be safe forever. Unless they plan to shut themselves up in thier forever which defeats the whole purpose of coming back to fr in the first place. They will eventually expose themsleves to the diease. Maybe this is a future Faerun where AO has greatly limited their powers (perhaps after a great holy war threatening the destruction of Toril). The gods aren't stupid, they know if they let things get too out of hnad they will face AO, who is more likely just fire them and hire someone new. Or maybe so many people have stopped following the gods most simply cease to exist and the few remaining are mere demigods. People aren't just going to stop worshipping gods when they know the gods are real and will respond to prayers. If they don't worship a god they will spend a etenity struck in Wall of the Faithless. Maybe there are so many problems poping up all over the world that this is just one more drop in a ocean full of trouble, and simply goes unnoticed most gods and their choosen. The gods aren't any limits a gods awarness. In Avatar series, you can see the gods sending Avatars to do several different things. Besides which, whats more important then a event that will wipe 99% of thier followers? A 50% off sale at Gods R' Us. Never tell a DM "You can't do that." :P And I am not saying a DM can't do anything. A DM is the overgod and can do pretty anything he wants. But sote posted his idea on here I assume he is looking for Canon Feedback and which is what he is getting. If he just looking for someone to pat him on his back and say great idea, he should have said so. Then i wouldn't waste my time responding. That's true, but I did adress the dietes earlier in this thread I address that as well with my third point, even if the gods can't smite the EV directly, they have a lot followers to send to do the job. Now that I finish pointing out the flaws let me make some suggestions. Instead of developing the diease on Toril, try making a deal with the devils in Hell to develope it. This would allow EV to develope the diease without the fr gods knowing. And here is away to link your pc to the plot. The price for the devils help could be something like 1000 elven souls. You elven pc could then be contacted by the elven too look into why elven souls are disappearing and this led them to the EV, their deal with the devils and genocidal plan.
Asadeseth 09-04-05, 01:11 PM	and then you have that enterpiseing chodothan wizard who thanks to a magic iteam or such survives the plauge. Looks at your invention and then brakes out the old tome: Death and Artition, Mordens guid to plauge warfair. And shows the elves that humans have been doing this kind of war far langer and are far beter at it than the elves.....
Karsus the Mad 09-04-05, 04:45 PM	1 - Anything that has to do with magic in fr is under Mystra's domain. So a magical diease that is spread by magic or with magical help is going attract her attention, And you what that is going to invole, Her Chosens, who btw are immune to diease. Sorry, but that's wrong. It's only *Weave* based magic that's under Mystra's domain. That Mystra can know and control ALL magic is a hold over from 2e. In 3e/3.5, she can only control and know of magic via her own Weave, as described in her very own Portfolio Sense and Unique Salient Divine Ability descriptions in F&P. If the magical plague is via the Shadow Weave, (or any other "possible" magic source) not associated with the Weave, then Mystra doesn't know it, can't control it, and has no say of it. True, but that was under 2nd ed and this is 3rd ed, different rules apply. And besides where is EV going to find that many powerful wizards willing to help. Rules don't apply to historical cannon. Karsus did defy Ao and steal Mystryl's divinity for a brief time, the Imaskari did ban gods from Toril. Whether it's possible now, I dunno, the laws of magic have changed so much since those times, that it's plausible to say such arcane power is now impossible for a mere mortal to possess. Since Mystra's Ban only affects Weave based 10th+ magic, there is no reasonable conclusion why a Shadow Weave user can't utilize Epic Magic to achieve a devistating plague, especially if certain gods (ie: Shar, Tolona) are in support of it. Shar, being a primordial deity from the very beginning of existence, probably doesn't rely as heavily on mortals as other deities, thus can afford to sacrifice a bit.
Alratan 09-04-05, 05:02 PM	Rules don't apply to historical cannon. Karsus did defy Ao and steal Mystryl's divinity for a brief time, the Imaskari did ban gods from Toril. Whether it's possible now, I dunno, the laws of magic have changed so much since those times, that it's plausible to say such arcane power is now impossible for a mere mortal to possess. Since Mystra's Ban only affects Weave based 10th+ magic, there is no reasonable conclusion why a Shadow Weave user can't utilize Epic Magic to achieve a devistating plague, especially if certain gods (ie: Shar, Tolona) are in support of it. Shar, being a primordial deity from the very beginning of existence, probably doesn't rely as heavily on mortals as other deities, thus can afford to sacrifice a bit. I don't know if Ao has any direct control over the mortals of Faerun - just over its gods. If this is the case, then the Imaskari don't fall under his juisdiction, and Karsus didn't until after he ascended.
Karsus the Mad 09-04-05, 05:17 PM	I don't know if Ao has any direct control over the mortals of Faerun - just over its gods. If this is the case, then the Imaskari don't fall under his juisdiction, and Karsus didn't until after he ascended. He technically has control over who ascends and who doesn't. Lots of people claim that this is only after the ToT, but there is no precedented case of this being so, as far as I am aware, and is more likely that Ao has always decided who and who doesn't ascend. There are examples of mortals requiring Ao's permission and divine sponsorship to ascend before the ToT, and there are examples of mortals who have ascended apparently without Ao's permission or divine intervention. The only mortals that have ascended apparently without Ao's direct permission or divine sponsorship is Karsus and Tachazzar (sp?), tho' I may be mistaken. All that is known is that Karsus did it without divine intervention or sponsorship, succeeded with sheer magic, which technically is impossible, given portfolio sense, and deny weave, etc, etc. And Tachazzar did it simply by having mortals worship him. Tho' both had less than positive results. The Imaskari succeeded in banning gods from entering Toril's "influence", or whatever with sheer magic. Ao did however provide a method for the Mulan gods to send manifestations of themselves, thus bypassing the Imaskari Ban. Of course, all these events are simply canonized explainations for certain Realms histories. Thus the reason I stated "Rules don't apply to historical canon.", and thus is moot to attempt to force historical cannon to conform with current rulesets, or force current rulesets to conform with historical cannon, as that's simply gonna cause a lot of pain.
Sote 09-05-05, 11:47 AM	[...] sote posted his idea on here I assume he is looking for Canon Feedback and which is what he is getting. If he just looking for someone to pat him on his back and say great idea, he should have said so. Then i wouldn't waste my time responding. You assumed correctly, and did the right thing by pointing out why it may not work in the Forgotten Realms as they are.