Post/Author/DateTime	Post
foolkiller_rj 02-08-04, 04:03 PM	This may or may not be the best place to post this, so please forgive me if I am in the wrong location. I am in a pickle. I am GMing in a moderately modified FR gameworld. My friend and I (the main players of this campaign) have modified the cosmology and history of things to suit ourselves, but not too much. I say this so I don't get any 'hey, you've got that nitpicky detail wrong' comments. Let me explain...no, there is too much. Let me sum up. The PC's, in the company of Elminster, Randal Morn and Storm Silverhand are somewhere beneath the ruined city of Ascore (in the Anauroch) trying to sneak into the lair of Iymrith, Doom of the Desert (an ancient blue dragon). She is somewhat occupied at the moment defending her lair from an invading army of Zhents led by Manshoon. Both Manshoon and the PCs want to get their hands on an ancient Netherilese artifact somewhere in Iymrith's lair. I know, I know, having PCs interact with epic, iconic characters is problematic. However, I am taking over GMing midadventure from my friend who due to family constraints can no longer do so and this is the adventure he started. I am OK with most of it, but my problem is how to get rid of Elminster. I don't mean to kill him -that is a problem for another day- just to get him out of the action for a while so the PCs can have the spotlight for a bit. We are underneath a ruined Netherilese city and thus far I have used monsters that would 'naturally' be under there: Umber hulks, Netherilese Gaurdian Golems (posted here a few days ago) and these are fine for lesser encounters but I need something big, Balrog in Moria Big, to occupy the big El. It has to be 25HD+, so that only he can defeat it (somewhere off screen, naturally) and it has to be something I can justify being underneath a city that has been rubble for 2000+ years. This is further complicated by the fact that I have incorperated spells from Book of Exhalted Deeds into El's repitoire (sp?) and there is one 9th level one 'Blinding Glory' that automatically blinds any evil creature. So, for this battle to take more than 1 or 2 rounds, it has to be a non-evil critter so that the spell does not effect it. My current idea (and now I finally get to the subject for this post; sorry for taking so long) is to use a really advanced beholder that Iymrith fought with and used a geas of wish or something (the mechanics of this are not hugely important) to bind into a chamber below her lair. She keeps it as a pet, throws scraps of food to it on occasion, and tortures it for fun. Thus the beholder has become somewhat insane. My question (finally) is: can I possibly justify an insane beholder no longer being evil? Does a CN beholder (and thus not effected by Blinding Glory) seem like an 'honest' plot twist, or is it just horribly cheesy plot manipulation? I am torn. The PCs are about 15th level, BTW, and facing off against Manshoon and Lord Zabrac (a half-field assassin who looks like Darth Maul) should be the fight of their lives. I will have Elminster popping up if things get too hairy to save their butts. Please, someone, anyone, help me out here. I am truly stuck.
Tempus665 02-08-04, 04:18 PM	I don“t see a problem with a CN beholder. I once used a not-too-powerful celestial beholder to play with the PC“s for a while (they were evil at the time - thank the gods not anymore), but during the first round it disintegrated the high-level Pit Fiend that was with the PC“s at the moment :( Anyway - to get back to the point. It“s your world. If Elminster is travelling with the heroes, a CN beholder is not a crazy idea. Of course...a Slaad Lord could be fun as well (also CN), as could an epic construct (always N) like the Colossus. BTW - Edmonton is a great city :thumbsup:
Israfel666 02-09-04, 12:08 PM	I think constructs are your best shot. Since they're often magic-immune, Elminster would have his trouble to take them off (probably using all the Conjurations he knows, and perhaps having to resort to Tenser's Transformation and similar spells to go into combat). The Ironwyrm Golem from the Draconomicon looks tough enough, or you can advance it if you prefer.
Melfius 02-09-04, 06:57 PM	Way I see it, the simplest solution is what Ed does to explain away El's absence in his works: He gets called away. He's a fairly busy guy, and being at the beck-and-call of the Goddess of All Magic can put some serious constraints on his time. She could just as easily call him away to deal with another issue, which would still leave him alive for any last minute saves the PCs might need.
Ardent 02-10-04, 06:47 AM	Originally posted by Melfius Way I see it, the simplest solution is what Ed does to explain away El's absence in his works: He gets called away. He's a fairly busy guy, and being at the beck-and-call of the Goddess of All Magic can put some serious constraints on his time. She could just as easily call him away to deal with another issue, which would still leave him alive for any last minute saves the PCs might need. This is exactly the right thing to do. Elminster is notoriously busy for a retired archmage. The Chosen are used to his wandering off without warning and then showing up suddenly either when the problems are over, or to pull their bacon out of the fire. While El would *certainly* be around when/if the Netherese artifact turned up, he might simply disappear for a while. But he may be elsewhere while the bulk of the adventuring is going on...including whatever climactic battle occurs. Which isn't to say Manshoon couldn't give El a run for his money...but El, Storm and a party of 15th level adventurers would probably overwhelm him pretty quickly.
foolkiller_rj 02-10-04, 11:44 AM	well it's not just Manshoon, it's Manshoon, a 22nd level half feind fighter/assassin, the 12th level commander of the Zhent forces, her hand picked elite and several advanced ogres for heavy lifting. Not so easy to overwhelm. It will be the fight of their lives. As I have Storm saying (I have written out her attempt at Inspire Courage) "Manshoon and Zabrac cannot be allowed to find the Key. It will be the doom of the free world and preventing this will be the most important thing any of us have ever done. The coming moments will define us beyond this life. Look within yourselves and feel your hearts. They beat with the power of the Valar. Summon this power and hold it foremost. It will be your strength in the events to come." Thanks for the advice. I think I have a good handle on the situation now.
Gemstone 02-10-04, 12:01 PM	Perhaps you could have something that makes quite much sense like a: CG dragon of the same kind as the dragon beneth the city, geased to become the chief dragons mate or something, but also to work like a decoy for adventurers, when they slay the decoy dragon, finds out that there is a much more powerfull dragon beyond =D "That's it? No dancing red dragons?"
Israfel666 02-10-04, 12:12 PM	Originally posted by foolkiller_rj the power of the Valar. :eek: So much for the "moderately modified" Faerūn :behold: .
foolkiller_rj 02-10-04, 01:18 PM	So much for the "moderately modified" Faerūn Parts of Faerūn are blatantly based on Middle Earth, (Aglarond, anyone?) and everyone and their dogs have seen the LotR movies several times, so I figured why try and hide it? My Elminster looks, acts and sounds like Ian McKellan. My Manshoon is Christopher Lee. They are what I see in my head when I think 'wise, powerful wizard' or 'evil, corrupt wizard'. Besides, in the big picture, whether the celestial beings are called 'gods' or 'Valar' or 'salami sandwiches' doesn't mean a hell of a lot. Besides, 'Valar' sounds cooler. However, this is a subject for another thread. Thanks again for your help.
Cherrn 02-10-04, 03:46 PM	Back in 2nd edition days there was a LN Beholder. I think it was called an Observer or a Guardian. Anyways, it was commonly used for guarding treasure of various power. It did that, and only that. Thus LN. You could use one of those, just beef it up a bit :)
primemover003 02-10-04, 04:51 PM	What Chern said... A significantly advanced Observer is LN and used as a guardian for things of great import on the Planes... so why not on Faerun? Why not a celestial guardian? Even the Gods of good want things out of sight and reach even to such epic NPC's. Who's to say Helm doesn't have a charge to keep something imprisoned below ascore as well? Or One of the Dwarven Gods (Dumathoin for example).
Alac Luin 02-11-04, 11:05 AM	Originally posted by primemover003 A significantly advanced Observer is LN and used as a guardian for things of great import on the Planes... so why not on Faerun? This Beholder-Kin is detailed in Magic of Faerun. I suggest it use it's create food and water eye, then use it's suggestion to compel it's opponent into overeating. :behold: EDIT: Looking at my books agien, I think we are all talking about the Spectator Beholderkin, as the Observer is LE
arch-elementel 02-12-04, 12:07 AM	ardent and melfius are right elminster as a traveling chosen of mystra is busy beyond belief you could easily have him called away by mystra herself to tell him to take care of something. it wouyld probably be the most appropriate thing to do since he is also an accomplished fighter as well as mage. constructs he could probably take care of with one spell he just hasn't shown to the world yet. the goddes is the best choice. at the very least a simple wish spell would make them immoble by making it a dead magic area in which they reside. yes normally he wouldn't do this being a chosen of mystra but for the ultimate goal he would and then come back and deak with them as the lesser evil later and repair the dead magic zone
foolkiller_rj 02-12-04, 01:14 AM	I think that if a 25+ hit die creature can be wiped out by a single spell, even if it is a 9th or 10th level spell, then things are somewhat out of balance. My Elminster is tough, but not that tough. How he is treated in fiction is irrelevent to me, he still has to have beleivable, consistant game stats. (and spells) Besides, if such a super tough spell existed, then the bad guys would have to be able to get it, too. :(
Ardent 02-12-04, 07:08 AM	Originally posted by foolkiller_rj well it's not just Manshoon, it's Manshoon, a 22nd level half feind fighter/assassin, the 12th level commander of the Zhent forces, her hand picked elite and several advanced ogres for heavy lifting. Not so easy to overwhelm. It will be the fight of their lives. When we were still playing D&D the battlecry was "Fireball on the enemy caster!" Don't kid yourself man...casters are the be-all and end-all, especially at epic levels. I mean...a 22nd fighter is kinda scary...IF he can get at you with his chosen weapon...but when you're walking around with Spell Resistance, Greater Spell Mantle, Greater Globe of Invulnerability, Mage Armor...etc etc...you really don't care. You're going to Maximize Empowered fireball him, and he's going to die. Or if you're like my players and get a really big kick out of being obtuse..."I cast Wish." "What are you wishing for in the middle of a battle?" "To win." "What the heck? You really want to use an open-ended wish in the middle of battle?" "No no, lemme tell you the whole thing: I wish we win the battle by slaying all of enemies, suffering non-fatal damage only, without leaving the current location and without somehow angering a god." "Uh...go ahead and roll Spellcraft and Concentrate." "I succeed." "*slap forehead* So, the entire orcish horde is slaughtered in the next round by the soldier attacking them, nobody on Waterdeep's side dies and the city is saved. Nobody gets any freaking experience and no treasure is gained." "Cool...so what else did you have planned for today?" "How about some poker?"
Gemstone 02-12-04, 09:37 AM	Actually, a level 20+ fighter is not that bad either. The fighter probably got some magical items way back that grants him both spell resistace and enchanced constitution scores etc. And on epic levels, these fighters will gain epic magical items that will crush magical defenses as easy as anything. I know that a level 20+ Wizard or Sorceror is very scary but still, a level 20+ barbarian is something to be afraid of to :D
Ardent 02-12-04, 10:35 AM	Originally posted by Gemstone Actually, a level 20+ fighter is not that bad either. The fighter probably got some magical items way back that grants him both spell resistace and enchanced constitution scores etc. And on epic levels, these fighters will gain epic magical items that will crush magical defenses as easy as anything. I know that a level 20+ Wizard or Sorceror is very scary but still, a level 20+ barbarian is something to be afraid of to :D The player of the party's wizard put it pretty succintly: "Everything you use to draw your power closer to mine, I make." Those Spell Resistance granting items just don't cut it when the wizard is wearing gloves that give him a +30 bonus to Spellcraft. It's all give and take, and the caster tends to take at least as much as he gives, and he had more to begin with.
Israfel666 02-12-04, 02:25 PM	Please let us not turn Foolkiller's thread into another "fighter vs. wizard" debate.
Gemstone 02-13-04, 04:10 AM	Naaah, lets not turn this into a debate. Just one last thing: Why does people even discuss this? THey are both good in different ways :P
foolkiller_rj 02-13-04, 06:13 AM	Attitudes like these make me not want to play D&D. They are so focussed on the mechanics of the rules that what is important to me about characters: character, seem irrelelevent. If a character (even an NPC) is perceived just a stat block, or a bag of spells, or as how tough he is using the D&D rules, then what is the point? The whole thing, for me, is about story telling. How do you make a character like Elminster seem real? How do you make the player give a damn whether Elminster lives or dies? Or if you hurt his feelings? If it's just about who is toughest, or what spell combo is toughest, then I may just as well play a computer game.
Ardent 02-13-04, 06:27 AM	I make iconic NPCs believeable mostly by not including them. FR is what we play when want to do a little orc stomping. Our last story-driven FR campaign died off when the protagonist had to move to another state mid-go. I try, by and large, to keep FR iconics away from my players. One, I don't trust them NOT to maximize empowered fireball (or Melf's minute meteor storm or whatever) them. Secondly, the NPCs I do use tend to be significantly less difficult to portray because I DON'T have to meet the expectations of the players about the character that I haven't established. I haven't read all of the FR novels, particularly not all the ones pertaining to specific iconics. I just don't have the time or the money...but some of my players have read the ones I haven't, and know that "Elminster knows better than that...he tried it in..." Acting like a character I've created and defined (and have notes on) is significantly easier than acting like a character that, by and large, is mostly in Ed Greenwood's head.
foolkiller_rj 02-13-04, 07:02 AM	My previous post was not an attack, Ardent, just a statement of opinion. I hope you do not take it as such. I understand how using an iconic might be difficult when your players are all immersed in the FR world due to novels and such. However, that is not the case with my players. As I said upthread, we are all Tolkien nuts. We play in a very LoTR inspired Realms. THerefore, when presented with a potential Realms shattering situation (Fzoul getting his hands on said powerful artifact) it just makes sense to seek out 'The Man': Elminster. The main character in this campaign is a friend of King Azoun (who has not died yet in this time line-that's coming up) and his first love was Princess Alusair. After this business in Ascore, we are going to the Silver Marches where we will meet Alustriel (who looks like Cate Blanchett, of course) and then down to Waterdeep to hobnob with Piergeiron (face of Sean Connery). Ed and company have created all these cool iconics, why not use them once in a while? .edited to add: As far as how iconics are portrayed by other authors or gamewriters, you have to look beyond the narrative limitations of the authors (I'm looking at you, Ed) and see instead the essense of what they wanted the characters to be. I'm not playing Ed's Elminster, I'm playing my Elminster, inspired by Ed as well as Tolkien, Peter Jackson, Ian McKellan and others. The same goes when I play any iconic NPC. The trick is to stay true to the spirit of the character, not the nit picky details. It's why I pick faces who I think would act like a good NPC, not neccessarily look like them
Ardent 02-13-04, 07:45 AM	The iconics are about and the group does occasionally cross their paths (or cross swords with them, more commonly). By and large the group I play with enjoys the Good/Neutral campaign flavor more than the evil one, but they don't like iconics they don't believe. Bluntly, I do a *horrible* any of the Seven Sisters. The iconics my players do deal with frequently tend to be more minor...Khelben Blackstaff has been a sort of go-to for our group's wizard, particularly since Khelben is known for a penchant for blowing things up (as well). Fzoul and Manshoon do work against my players, but not openly any more. They learned their lesson after their last battle required Bane's direct intervention to save Fzoul and marked the entry of another Manshoon clone into the world. The rest of the high-level Zhents were summarily destroyed, although my players wouldn't be surprised to see them resurrected down the road. One of the last good battles I got on my players involved Szass Tam finding a way to control a dracolich...and setting said dracolich -- complete with Tam's spellcasting ability, mind you -- on the player's stronghold. So I work a lot of social intrigue and problem-solving in instead. The campaign is more similar to Birthright these days, with large-scale clashes (usually punctuated by gigantic fireballs of doom), political maneuvering in the courts and halls of power, realm-building through magic (I've thus far avoided high magic, but it may haunt me if the campaign ever gets moving again)... Anyhow, I just don't want to be seen as one who drives people away from DnD. ;) I run sessions for newbies (and a lot of them do want to play in FR) for a local hobby store when I'm in the states. I don't mind iconics, but as I said, they come with strings attached. I prefer to pull my own strings. ;)
itsgotime 02-13-04, 05:28 PM	look sometimes doing the right thing isn't doing the right thing