Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sarelle 08-21-03, 10:10 AM	I was just reading the "Elminster with Sword" topic and it brought me back to a subject I had thought about a while ago - every D&D campaign and every large scale fantasy world has a character who is either a rip-off of Gandalf or who follows the theme of a wise old wizard, along the lines of Merlin. Observe: Middle-earth (the Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings etc. - Tolkien) - Gandalf. Faerûn (D&D - Ed Greenwood and co.) - Elminster. Krynn (D&D - Tracy Hickman/Margaret Weis and co.) - Fizban. Greyhawk (D&D - [can't remember his name - help?] and co.) - Mordenkainen (well, I have confirmed that Mordenkainen does not fit the archetype in a many ways, and yet I will leave him here because he still represents that figure, even if he differs from the norm). (strangely) Hogwarts (Harry Potter - JK Rowling) - Dumbledore. EDIT: (Thanks Crust) Pre-Medieval 'Britain' (Gaelic/British Mythology) - Merlin A Galaxy Far, Far Away (Star Wars - George Lucas) - Obi Wan Kenobi EDIT: (Thanks louissan) ? -help?- (? - help?-) - Belgarath/Beldin EDIT: (Thanks Sir Dorian Kelvedor) World of Shanarra (?) (Sword of Shannara etc., Terry Brooks) - Bremen ? -help?- (Guardians of the Flame series, Joel Rosenburg) - Arta Myrdun ? -help?- (Spellsinger series, Alan Dean Foster) - Clothahump ? -help?- (the Eternal Apprentice series, Craig Shaw Gardner) - Ebenezum These are just simple musings, but I was wondering if anyone else can add any other Gandalf-alikes. They are all old male wizards [EDIT: (or Jedi in Obi-Wan's case)], with long beards and usually a hat of some sort, who are adventurous, humorous and mischievous - with a twinkle in their eye - but who also are the most powerful and respected wizards of their world. They usually seem to carry swords too, as observed in "Elminster with Sword". I would also be interested to hear people's views on WHY there is that need for such a figure, or simply if authors tend to fall into the trap. Do such figures add to the book/setting's popularity?
Crust 08-21-03, 10:44 AM	I agree with what you're saying completely, and I've voiced that opinion here, elsewhere, and at the gaming table. Excellent observation. The similarities are hard to contend with. Have you thought about the sci-fi answer to Merlin: Obi-Wan?
Kilthius 08-21-03, 10:52 AM	wow - that's cool - Obi Wan Kenobi. Never would have thought of that one. Same goes for Yoda I assume.
Jagermeister 08-21-03, 11:18 AM	I agree with you on all of those except Mordenkainen, who looks nothing like the rest of them. He has pictures in some older Greyhawk products, GH journals, Dragon mags, and the Epic Level Handbook. Mordenkainen (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery7/44185_CA2_Mordenkainen.jpg)
Sarelle 08-21-03, 11:18 AM	Thanks Crust - I wouldn't have thought of Obi-Wan at all. Great comparison though. Plus, Merlin - duh! I'll edit my post to include them. Kilthius... I suppose that in some ways Yoda fits the role better than Obi-Wan (more powerful and unexpectedly so) but he isn't the classic sort - human, white male with long white beard. I'll leave him out for now, though.
Faraer 08-21-03, 11:33 AM	'Rip-off' is a crass and inaccurate way to refer to archetypal echoes and things pulled from the ancient cauldron of story. It's peculiar that the old bearded teacher stands out more to some people than the corresponding young, adult and old male and female images, though.
louissan 08-21-03, 11:34 AM	You can certainly add Belgarath (and, to a lesser extent, Beldin) to the list, imo. Funny characters, both of them :D EDIT: and you **may** be wrong by saying that Merlin was inspired from Gandalf ... it should be the other way around, shouldn't it? After all, the role of councelor of kings, trusted friend, yet shadowy, strange and almost otherworldly figure was first played by Merlin, not Gandalf. :)
Kilthius 08-21-03, 12:02 PM	It's not that they're rip-offs - they're Archtypes. Many stories have the old, powerful, wise, teacher characters, even the Bible and other religious scriptures.
Masakado 08-21-03, 12:08 PM	Originally posted by Kilthius It's not that they're rip-offs - they're Archtypes. Many stories have the old, powerful, wise, teacher characters, even the Bible and other religious scriptures. Thanks. I was just going to say this. Tolkien wasn't the inventor of the "crotchety old wizard." All of the above are variations on a theme. Elminster was "revised" after the novels that provided his backstory were published. He's assumed many professions in his long life.
Thrudjelmer 08-22-03, 02:31 AM	Originally posted by Thanks Crust - I wouldn't have thought of Obi-Wan at all. Great comparison though. Plus, Merlin - duh! Originally posted by Masakado Tolkien wasn't the inventor of the "crotchety old wizard." All of the above are variations on a theme. Too true... all variations on a theme. And, if anything, Gandalf is a variation on the Merlin theme. Merlin, Sarelle, is not a ripoff of Gandalf. If the "duh!" belongs anywhere, its here.
Tempus665 08-22-03, 02:35 AM	Originally posted by Sarelle a rip-off of Gandalf. Well you certainly didnīt use any subtlety there. Itīs not strange that most fantasy world steal some ideas from the grandfather of fantasy (LotR). As a DM, I steal ideas all the time, and see nothing wrong with that.
Sarelle 08-22-03, 08:28 AM	Jesus. I only wrote 'rip-off' because in those five seconds I couldn't think of anything else to put. Sorry I was inarticulate for that moment (if you couldn't hear the sarcasm in that - it's there, trust me). But let's face it - rip-offs they are when you get right down to it 9though, yes, archetype is a better term for the situation, if only to not hurt the feelings of the great D&D creators, JK Rowling and Mr. Tolkien himself). And I never meant that they were ALL rip-offs of Gandalf (I am aware that Merlin is certainly not).
Sir Dorian Kelvedor 08-22-03, 02:43 PM	:teach: You certainly can't leave out Alannon (Shannara series by Terry Brooks), Arta Myrdun (Guardians of the Flame series by Joel Rosenberg), Clothahump (Spellsinger series by Alan Dean Foster), Ebenezum (the Eternal Apprentice series by Craig Shaw Gardner), and many, many more that I don't have time to list right now.
Thrudjelmer 08-22-03, 04:16 PM	Originally posted by Sarelle Jesus. I only wrote 'rip-off' because in those five seconds I couldn't think of anything else to put. Sorry I was inarticulate for that moment (if you couldn't hear the sarcasm in that - it's there, trust me). But let's face it - rip-offs they are when you get right down to it 9though, yes, archetype is a better term for the situation, if only to not hurt the feelings of the great D&D creators, JK Rowling and Mr. Tolkien himself). And I never meant that they were ALL rip-offs of Gandalf (I am aware that Merlin is certainly not). Inarticulate moment using "rip-off" + using Ganfalf as the example figure in the "rip-off" comparison... leaves you open to looking like a Tolkien fanboy that thinks everything Tolkien is golden and everything else is second-rate. Maybe these were poor choices of wording for you, but the two poor choices combined is what made it look bad. I would have went for a more wordy, less inflametory way of stating your observation, such as "Ever notice how every campaign world or fantasy literature has its Gandalf-type figure... Even those before Gandalf himself was even concieved of?" This keeps the idea of your post intact, and shows your preference of Gandalf as an iconic wizard figure without seeming to presume that he is the iconic wizard figure. "Rip-off"... Tolkien hardly had an original concept in his head when he pulled all the elements of his story together. Of course, you know what they say about there being no new ideas under the sun... Its not about coming up with new ideas, its about how you recycle the old ones!
Archmage 08-22-03, 04:57 PM	Originally posted by Jagermeister I agree with you on all of those except Mordenkainen, who looks nothing like the rest of them. He has pictures in some older Greyhawk products, GH journals, Dragon mags, and the Epic Level Handbook. Mordenkainen (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery7/44185_CA2_Mordenkainen.jpg) I hate that picture of Mordenkainen! http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/sauer/angry-smiley-030.gif I much prefer how he looked in 2e (my avatar is his picture on the cover of a certain module).
primemover003 08-22-03, 06:23 PM	Yeah but it's a clyde caldwell pic... I much prefer his new look from the Living Greyhawk journals (before they went to dragon then dungeon). I'll have to see if I can't dig it up and scan it to post.
Jagermeister 08-22-03, 08:30 PM	Originally posted by Archmage I hate that picture of Mordenkainen! http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/sauer/angry-smiley-030.gif I much prefer how he looked in 2e (my avatar is his picture on the cover of a certain module). I'm not too fond of it either. I enjoyed the artwork in the Greyhawk journals of Mordenkainen and the other members of the Circle of Eight though. I haven't seen much of the older artwork of Mord or the others sadly. Know a place where I can find it? Let me know.
Sarelle 08-23-03, 08:22 AM	Originally posted by Sir Dorian Kelvedor :teach: You certainly can't leave out Alannon (Shannara series by Terry Brooks), Arta Myrdun (Guardians of the Flame series by Joel Rosenberg), Clothahump (Spellsinger series by Alan Dean Foster), Ebenezum (the Eternal Apprentice series by Craig Shaw Gardner), and many, many more that I don't have time to list right now. Thanks. Someone is actually taking notice of the innocent nature of this thread rather than nit picking my use of language. Originally posted by Thrudjelmer Inarticulate moment using "rip-off" + using Ganfalf as the example figure in the "rip-off" comparison... leaves you open to looking like a Tolkien fanboy that thinks everything Tolkien is golden and everything else is second-rate. Maybe these were poor choices of wording for you, but the two poor choices combined is what made it look bad. I would have went for a more wordy, less inflametory way of stating your observation, such as "Ever notice how every campaign world or fantasy literature has its Gandalf-type figure... Even those before Gandalf himself was even concieved of?" This keeps the idea of your post intact, and shows your preference of Gandalf as an iconic wizard figure without seeming to presume that he is the iconic wizard figure. "Rip-off"... Tolkien hardly had an original concept in his head when he pulled all the elements of his story together. Of course, you know what they say about there being no new ideas under the sun... Its not about coming up with new ideas, its about how you recycle the old ones! Look. I really fail to see why the words 'rip-off' are so hurtful to you or anyone else. As I have said, though 'archetype' might show my respect for D&D and FR (actually, in my case love for) better than 'rip-off'; 'rip-off', negative term or not, is really what D&D is in relation to Tolkien's Middle-earth. I'm sure you understand how glad I am that they did 'rip-off' Tolkien's books, but I see no reason for people to attack a thread based around mild speculation of an interesting point, simply because of one small hyphenated word. It was not the response I had hoped for in people I saw as intelligent and interesting. The sort of responses I had hoped for - in fact the sort of responses I had expected - were comments about why fantasy worlds seemed to need this 'Gandalf-figure' and what part he has to play in the book's/setting's popularity. Sadly my questions remain unanswered, and because of people such as you - whether you were trying to help or not - what little hope of having them answered is gone, now that my thread has been hi-jacked. Ah well.
Thrudjelmer 08-23-03, 05:17 PM	A hijacked thread is not a lost cause... and a few side comments correcting your usage of language doesn't ruin your chances for getting the answers you need. And maybe, if you'd thought more about how you'd phrase the question to begin with, you'd get less of this kind of response. Additionally, your original question wasn't asking why fantasy worlds need "Gandalf-alikes," you were more or less pointing out that so many worlds each had such a figure and asked others to fill in the blanks with names of such figures from other worlds. Did D&D rip off Tolkien? Sure, to a certain extent... Do I care? I'm pretty much of the same mindset as you; it makes the game that much better, really. So what bothers me? This idea that everything is ripped off from Tolkien and Gandalf is the great original, when in fact, he's just a rip-off too. You just have to accept that careless and/or thoughtless comments are invitations for corrections of this nature. Get over it and wait for further answers. As for why I think a Merlin-like figure is needed for such fantasy worlds, they provide a guru for the characters to look up to... someone who has mastered the magic of the world and can guide the hero through it where necessary.
Gez 08-23-03, 05:38 PM	Mordenkainen picture (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery7/44185_CA2_Mordenkainen.jpg). See also (but it's too tiny on my link) the cover of one edition of the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer: http://www.legendgames.co.uk/stock_pics/living_greyhawk_gazeteer.jpg
kedi 08-24-03, 02:48 AM	Yoda, bigger than obi-wan,..."
pyk 08-25-03, 11:53 AM	Actually, for Terry Brooks I'd include Bremen, not Alannon. Alannon was really a Bremen wanna-be (which Alannon spoke of often in the books, wishing he was Bremen's equal). Then there's the Alannon wanna-be, Walker. And they both (Alannon and Walker) were quite reluctant in not giving out the whole plot to the story, seeing as how the true heroes needed to learn the plots themselves. Sort of makes Alannon/Walker appear to not be one of the good guys at times, like he's maybe playing both sides at the same time. And, having just read some good sources of Aurthurian legend, I'd have to agree that Merlin is the originator of the whole wise-old-wizard-with-long-white-beard-type (being first written of in ca. 1060 by a monk).
Sarelle 08-25-03, 01:12 PM	Hope fully that will satisfy you lot. I have edited the post so that it no longer sounds as though I was trying to say that every one of the characters in the list was a rip-off of Gandalf, however I keep that phrase in there because of the reasons that I have mentioned before (and the fact that I am as stubborn as a mule - if people had simply politely said that there might be a better way of putting my point than writing 'a rip-off of Gandalf' I woudldn't have thought twice about changing it). Hopefully we can move of to some more additions and enlightening discussions.
Faraer 08-25-03, 03:21 PM	Though it's possible to trace these things chronologically, it's difficult and ultimately just an intellectual distraction: images (and I don't know why this one is focused on more than, say, the young warrior) bubble from a timeless brook. Moses, of course, and further back. Mordenkainen is a player character of Gary Gygax, and giving him that newfangled bald head is silly. I don't think there's a better picture than that WG5 cover.
Triton 08-25-03, 06:39 PM	To jump in... I think that just like every western has a gunslinger, every magic fantasy setting has to have a mysterously powerful old wise wizard. It just wouldn't be the same. If all mages were evil then magic would be eradicated. If they weren't old then how could they know ancient secrets. The wisdom makes magic a tricky thing to learn that mages sword wielders look like big idiots (Me smash!). It is all part of the quinticential fantasy world as established by shamans, druids, witchdoctors, and alchemists in our history that made their art a mysterous secret passed down only to other practicers of the craft. So let the old farts smoke their weed and conjure naked faeries to dance for your pleasure.:D