Elven arrival in GHotR Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elven arrival in GHotR Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
johnkretzer
09-23-07, 10:32 PM As I remebered it, it was the green elves, the averials, and the lythari that came to the FR first. Yet the GHotR only mentioned the green elves( it hasn't even mention the other two yet, though I haven't finished it yet.

Am I rememberring something wrong here? Or is it a revision? Or a mistake? Or just ommitted because it wasn't considered note worthy?

Also the entire moon elf race is descended from one elf? Or did I miss something there too.
MarkusTay63
09-24-07, 02:34 AM Also the entire moon elf race is descended from one elf? Or did I miss something there too.Pretty much.

He was a horny bastard. ;)
johnkretzer
09-24-07, 02:57 AM Pretty much.

He was a horny bastard. ;)

I guess so...so are moon elves really just a mix of the orginal moon elf and sun elves, wood elves, wild elves, and maybe a hint of dark elves?

Also I find what I remembered reading about the lythari and the averials...it is on page 27 under racial history 1st paragraph of Races of Faerun. So anybody got a answear?
Iakhovas
09-24-07, 09:42 AM The Grand History is not an exhaustive history. If a particular event doesn’t appear in the book, it certainly doesn’t mean the event never existed. The origin story of the Avariel and Lythari has simply not yet been revealed.
MarkusTay63
09-24-07, 02:22 PM True that.

GHotR contains those events which had some effect on peoples and things outside of their direct occurrence (for the most part). For the most part, Lythari and Avariel cul;ture has had little to no impact on the greater Realms, therefore would not be included in a humanocentric Faerûn-focused historical tome.

We know very little of the Dwarf, Halfling, and Gnome histories within the Realms as well, and they are not tiny subraces. Since surface Elves have interacted with humans since the beginning, the two histories are greatly inter-twined and the Elves got major coverage in a book that is primarily human in nature.

So I eagerly await Brian's NEXT tome - The Grand History of the Little Dudes. :P

BTW,
I have given quite a bit of thought to that little 'historic problem' concerning the Moon Elves (sort of an 'Adam & Eve dilemma, eh?). Here's what I've come up with -

The Dark, Sylvan (who later split into the Wood and Wild subraces), Lythari, Avarial, and perhaps the Star (southern?) Elves had all migrated to Toril long before the fall of Tintageer. Obviously there was some war taking place in Fäerie, that refugees were fleeing. Considering the history of the Crown Wars and other Elven conflicts, that war probably lasted for centuries, and maybe even thousands of years. Over time, many sub-groups (septs) fled the war-torn land and emigrated to numerous other worlds.

Isn't it much more reasonable that Sharlario Moonflower had encountered other small settlements of 'High Elves' as he explored their new world? Later, all such groups would be united and take their name from him - Moon Elves.

If you recall, on page 98 of E:IoE, Durothil and Sharlario find a sword and wrist bracer of Elven make buried in the dirt upon their arrival. These items could have belonged to their forerunners, who were chased away by the dragons ruling the north. Many would have gone into hiding, and could have been re-discovered over the years.

Just a few of my personal meanderings concerning the absurdity of the 'Horny Elf' explanation - Elves simple do NOT breed like that. ;)
johnkretzer
09-24-07, 03:49 PM The Grand History is not an exhaustive history. If a particular event doesn’t appear in the book, it certainly doesn’t mean the event never existed. The origin story of the Avariel and Lythari has simply not yet been revealed.

Ok...though I thought their arrival with the green elves should have got mention.

Or the dragons attempt of genocide on the avariel should've been mentioned. They did come ib enough numbers that the dragons considered them a threat after all. Shrug.
MarkusTay63
09-25-07, 01:45 AM Okay, now that I have it, it explicitly states that ALL Moon Elves are decended from that one guy...

from a race the is known to have only one, maybe two children over a thousand year lifespan... :nonono:
Suin Bahhar
09-25-07, 07:23 AM E:IoE has multiple elf families with 4 or 5 generations of offspring each counting about 2 or three siblings. In the span of 700 years this would give a single moon elf couple the time to put about 12 to 20 elves on Toril.
Pretty good demographic growth.
Iakhovas
09-25-07, 10:27 AM from a race the is known to have only one, maybe two children over a thousand year lifespan... :nonono:Stranded on a foreign world with possible extinction looming over you by the local dragon population, would perhaps accelerate the desire of these refugees from Tintageer to copulate more frequently than typical for their species.
MarkusTay63
09-25-07, 10:40 AM Stranded on a foreign world with possible extinction looming over you by the local dragon population, would perhaps accelerate the desire of these refugees from Tintageer to copulate more frequently than typical for their species.I stand corrected... there needn't be any form of accelerated breeding to explain this over a 26,000+ year time period.

After starting with one Elf, and assuming he has two children, and each of his offspring have two children every 500 hundred years, there would be -

4,503,599,627,370,496 Moon Elves!

Give or take a Quadrillion. ;)

Which leaves me with my new point - there are way too many intelligent species on Toril for the planet to support. :P
Suin Bahhar
09-25-07, 10:51 AM Whats your guess at the actual surface area of Aber-Toril?
MarkusTay63
09-25-07, 10:52 AM Well, considering those numbers only represent a sub-race of a single race, and that there are over 500 intelligent species living on planet, I would hazard to guess that Toril was a few thousand times the size of Jupiter. :P
Suin Bahhar
09-25-07, 11:01 AM :rofl:

So what is the size for real? I always guessed it was 5 times as big as earth.
MarkusTay63
09-25-07, 11:04 AM I believe it is just slightly larger then our Earth.
Lord Karsus
09-25-07, 08:02 PM -To inject some seriousness, I just completed an essay, which can be found in Elves of Faerûn on this exact topic- 'The First Coming of the Elves'. I suggest you check it out.
GothicDan
09-26-07, 12:39 PM Let's also remember the number of children that Amlaruil and Zaor had, too.

Also, we never really have learned just where/when the Elven subraces of Abeir-Toril originated. They migrated from Faerie, but people migrate all over all the time.
Lord Karsus
09-26-07, 05:33 PM Let's also remember the number of children that Amlaruil and Zaor had, too.

-Exacty. Amnestria and Lamruil were only two, out of a whole bunch. While I cannot recall the exact number at this time, Amlauril herself had over ten children, over hundreds of years.
MarkusTay63
09-26-07, 06:07 PM Just to let you know, in case you haven't seen it elsewhere -

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a

I think I'll wait on the 'prehistory' stuff just a wee bit longer. :uh-huh:

I think the Eladrin is WAY more then just a name change....
Lord Karsus
09-26-07, 11:33 PM -That link didn't work for me, but...

-What's written is alreay written, and well established. You really can't arbitrarily change it without putting a lot of effort into it. And, I don't know if they (whoever 'they' are) are willing to put all that effort into it.
MarkusTay63
09-26-07, 11:38 PM It's all the new stuff about Faerie in 4e... and it mentions the Eladrin.
Suin Bahhar
09-27-07, 09:55 AM I guess we will have a new immigration of the eladrin into Toril after Abeir merges. The newest addition of interlopers of the elven race.

Star elves could fit this role too...
msatran
09-27-07, 12:38 PM Could be worse.

Soap could vanish.

EVERYWHERE.
MarkusTay63
09-27-07, 01:09 PM I don't think they invented soap yet.

Maybe on Lantan... :rolleyes:

Thats the only change to the setting I would want to see - indoor plumbing. :D
Lord Karsus
09-27-07, 02:55 PM I guess we will have a new immigration of the eladrin into Toril after Abeir merges. The newest addition of interlopers of the elven race.

Star elves could fit this role too...

-Star Elves are Elves, and not Eladrin.

-Now, what's all this talk about the merging of Abeir and Toril. That, I don't understand. They are already one and the same.
MarkusTay63
09-27-07, 03:46 PM Not any more... even Ed hinted at the coming 'merger' in the last issue of Dragon.

We will soon find out what happened to the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril (it was originally called by the full name, but then centuries ago people stopped using the Abeir for some reason).

There is a teensy tiny 'blurb' in the original grey box that mentions 'parallel worlds' - right after the name Abeir-Toril is mentioned. If thats the 'hidden nugget' from the grey box that has been referenced, then it would explain much.

They are going to "un-Sunder" the world, and converge the timelines. :eek:

<at least, thats my latest theory> ;)

As a fellow comic-book afficionado, does this really come as much of a surprise?
DC = Crisis
Marvel = Ultimates

Get it? ;)
Lord Karsus
09-27-07, 04:05 PM -That's dumb. The planet is called Abeir-Toril. Period. There are no 'other worlds'- unless the other world is going to be some kind of adjecent temporal anomoly, where none of that crazy 4e stuff happens...
MarkusTay63
09-27-07, 04:13 PM No, it's an adjacent temporal anomally, where the Sundering NEVER happened. The Sundering is the only major RSE in Toril's past that effected time AND would cause the kinds of changes they are planning in 4e.

Think about it.

From their point of view, they are setting the world RIGHT. It's the way the world would have been if the Elves hadn't cast their high magic ritual and 'mucked' with time.

And at some point in the distant past, the folks of the planet stopped using the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril. ;)

The only other way it would work is if they just put another continent where Anchorome is. They could do THAT without calling it a "disasterous merger of two worlds", so obviously they plan on bringing something into the Realms that 'belongs' elsewhere.

More then likely, another setting or timeline.
GothicDan
09-27-07, 10:56 PM Hurry, LK. Start cross-referencing your elven dictionary for anything resembling Abeir!
kaor
09-27-07, 11:53 PM Not any more... even Ed hinted at the coming 'merger' in the last issue of Dragon.

We will soon find out what happened to the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril (it was originally called by the full name, but then centuries ago people stopped using the Abeir for some reason).

There is a teensy tiny 'blurb' in the original grey box that mentions 'parallel worlds' - right after the name Abeir-Toril is mentioned. If thats the 'hidden nugget' from the grey box that has been referenced, then it would explain much.

What page is that on?
Lord Karsus
09-27-07, 11:58 PM Hurry, LK. Start cross-referencing your elven dictionary for anything resembling Abeir!

-There aren't even any words that begin with 'Ab'!

-All 'Abeir' originally was was a way to get the planet's name as the first entry in an index! Now, all of this craziness!
MarkusTay63
09-28-07, 12:54 AM It's called ret-connning my friend. Get used to it, we will be forced fed much over the coming year.

What page is that on?It's in the introduction by Ed Greenwood on page four, where he discusses the name of the 'Frogotten Realms' and its myriad connections to the multiverse.

I was mistaken though - Abeir-Toril isn't mentioned until you get to the second sourcebook from the box.

The 'Parallel Timeline' is just my latest fun theory. ;)
kaor
09-28-07, 02:34 AM I just now went to the page I think you meant. It pretty much says the Forgotten Realms is one of the the worlds in the Prime Material, and our earth is another.

Nothing about what I thought you meant earlier.

Who knows you may be right, but that reference seems to be of less worth than the one that says "Dove smashed black rock," or whatever.

As of right now, the "Abeir" reference in the FR change is still a big mystery.
MarkusTay63
09-28-07, 10:55 AM Abierron...
Abeirrations...
Abeirham Lincoln...

Abeir to the first Orc to kill Drizzt. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
09-28-07, 06:18 PM Who knows you may be right, but that reference seems to be of less worth than the one that says "Dove smashed black rock," or whatever.

And even that reference (if it is one) makes very little sense.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johnkretzer 09-23-07, 10:32 PM	As I remebered it, it was the green elves, the averials, and the lythari that came to the FR first. Yet the GHotR only mentioned the green elves( it hasn't even mention the other two yet, though I haven't finished it yet. Am I rememberring something wrong here? Or is it a revision? Or a mistake? Or just ommitted because it wasn't considered note worthy? Also the entire moon elf race is descended from one elf? Or did I miss something there too.
MarkusTay63 09-24-07, 02:34 AM	Also the entire moon elf race is descended from one elf? Or did I miss something there too.Pretty much. He was a horny bastard. ;)
johnkretzer 09-24-07, 02:57 AM	Pretty much. He was a horny bastard. ;) I guess so...so are moon elves really just a mix of the orginal moon elf and sun elves, wood elves, wild elves, and maybe a hint of dark elves? Also I find what I remembered reading about the lythari and the averials...it is on page 27 under racial history 1st paragraph of Races of Faerun. So anybody got a answear?
Iakhovas 09-24-07, 09:42 AM	The Grand History is not an exhaustive history. If a particular event doesn’t appear in the book, it certainly doesn’t mean the event never existed. The origin story of the Avariel and Lythari has simply not yet been revealed.
MarkusTay63 09-24-07, 02:22 PM	True that. GHotR contains those events which had some effect on peoples and things outside of their direct occurrence (for the most part). For the most part, Lythari and Avariel cul;ture has had little to no impact on the greater Realms, therefore would not be included in a humanocentric Faerûn-focused historical tome. We know very little of the Dwarf, Halfling, and Gnome histories within the Realms as well, and they are not tiny subraces. Since surface Elves have interacted with humans since the beginning, the two histories are greatly inter-twined and the Elves got major coverage in a book that is primarily human in nature. So I eagerly await Brian's NEXT tome - The Grand History of the Little Dudes. :P BTW, I have given quite a bit of thought to that little 'historic problem' concerning the Moon Elves (sort of an 'Adam & Eve dilemma, eh?). Here's what I've come up with - The Dark, Sylvan (who later split into the Wood and Wild subraces), Lythari, Avarial, and perhaps the Star (southern?) Elves had all migrated to Toril long before the fall of Tintageer. Obviously there was some war taking place in Fäerie, that refugees were fleeing. Considering the history of the Crown Wars and other Elven conflicts, that war probably lasted for centuries, and maybe even thousands of years. Over time, many sub-groups (septs) fled the war-torn land and emigrated to numerous other worlds. Isn't it much more reasonable that Sharlario Moonflower had encountered other small settlements of 'High Elves' as he explored their new world? Later, all such groups would be united and take their name from him - Moon Elves. If you recall, on page 98 of E:IoE, Durothil and Sharlario find a sword and wrist bracer of Elven make buried in the dirt upon their arrival. These items could have belonged to their forerunners, who were chased away by the dragons ruling the north. Many would have gone into hiding, and could have been re-discovered over the years. Just a few of my personal meanderings concerning the absurdity of the 'Horny Elf' explanation - Elves simple do NOT breed like that. ;)
johnkretzer 09-24-07, 03:49 PM	The Grand History is not an exhaustive history. If a particular event doesn’t appear in the book, it certainly doesn’t mean the event never existed. The origin story of the Avariel and Lythari has simply not yet been revealed. Ok...though I thought their arrival with the green elves should have got mention. Or the dragons attempt of genocide on the avariel should've been mentioned. They did come ib enough numbers that the dragons considered them a threat after all. Shrug.
MarkusTay63 09-25-07, 01:45 AM	Okay, now that I have it, it explicitly states that ALL Moon Elves are decended from that one guy... from a race the is known to have only one, maybe two children over a thousand year lifespan... :nonono:
Suin Bahhar 09-25-07, 07:23 AM	E:IoE has multiple elf families with 4 or 5 generations of offspring each counting about 2 or three siblings. In the span of 700 years this would give a single moon elf couple the time to put about 12 to 20 elves on Toril. Pretty good demographic growth.
Iakhovas 09-25-07, 10:27 AM	from a race the is known to have only one, maybe two children over a thousand year lifespan... :nonono:Stranded on a foreign world with possible extinction looming over you by the local dragon population, would perhaps accelerate the desire of these refugees from Tintageer to copulate more frequently than typical for their species.
MarkusTay63 09-25-07, 10:40 AM	Stranded on a foreign world with possible extinction looming over you by the local dragon population, would perhaps accelerate the desire of these refugees from Tintageer to copulate more frequently than typical for their species.I stand corrected... there needn't be any form of accelerated breeding to explain this over a 26,000+ year time period. After starting with one Elf, and assuming he has two children, and each of his offspring have two children every 500 hundred years, there would be - 4,503,599,627,370,496 Moon Elves! Give or take a Quadrillion. ;) Which leaves me with my new point - there are way too many intelligent species on Toril for the planet to support. :P
Suin Bahhar 09-25-07, 10:51 AM	Whats your guess at the actual surface area of Aber-Toril?
MarkusTay63 09-25-07, 10:52 AM	Well, considering those numbers only represent a sub-race of a single race, and that there are over 500 intelligent species living on planet, I would hazard to guess that Toril was a few thousand times the size of Jupiter. :P
Suin Bahhar 09-25-07, 11:01 AM	:rofl: So what is the size for real? I always guessed it was 5 times as big as earth.
MarkusTay63 09-25-07, 11:04 AM	I believe it is just slightly larger then our Earth.
Lord Karsus 09-25-07, 08:02 PM	-To inject some seriousness, I just completed an essay, which can be found in Elves of Faerûn on this exact topic- 'The First Coming of the Elves'. I suggest you check it out.
GothicDan 09-26-07, 12:39 PM	Let's also remember the number of children that Amlaruil and Zaor had, too. Also, we never really have learned just where/when the Elven subraces of Abeir-Toril originated. They migrated from Faerie, but people migrate all over all the time.
Lord Karsus 09-26-07, 05:33 PM	Let's also remember the number of children that Amlaruil and Zaor had, too. -Exacty. Amnestria and Lamruil were only two, out of a whole bunch. While I cannot recall the exact number at this time, Amlauril herself had over ten children, over hundreds of years.
MarkusTay63 09-26-07, 06:07 PM	Just to let you know, in case you haven't seen it elsewhere - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a I think I'll wait on the 'prehistory' stuff just a wee bit longer. :uh-huh: I think the Eladrin is WAY more then just a name change....
Lord Karsus 09-26-07, 11:33 PM	-That link didn't work for me, but... -What's written is alreay written, and well established. You really can't arbitrarily change it without putting a lot of effort into it. And, I don't know if they (whoever 'they' are) are willing to put all that effort into it.
MarkusTay63 09-26-07, 11:38 PM	It's all the new stuff about Faerie in 4e... and it mentions the Eladrin.
Suin Bahhar 09-27-07, 09:55 AM	I guess we will have a new immigration of the eladrin into Toril after Abeir merges. The newest addition of interlopers of the elven race. Star elves could fit this role too...
msatran 09-27-07, 12:38 PM	Could be worse. Soap could vanish. EVERYWHERE.
MarkusTay63 09-27-07, 01:09 PM	I don't think they invented soap yet. Maybe on Lantan... :rolleyes: Thats the only change to the setting I would want to see - indoor plumbing. :D
Lord Karsus 09-27-07, 02:55 PM	I guess we will have a new immigration of the eladrin into Toril after Abeir merges. The newest addition of interlopers of the elven race. Star elves could fit this role too... -Star Elves are Elves, and not Eladrin. -Now, what's all this talk about the merging of Abeir and Toril. That, I don't understand. They are already one and the same.
MarkusTay63 09-27-07, 03:46 PM	Not any more... even Ed hinted at the coming 'merger' in the last issue of Dragon. We will soon find out what happened to the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril (it was originally called by the full name, but then centuries ago people stopped using the Abeir for some reason). There is a teensy tiny 'blurb' in the original grey box that mentions 'parallel worlds' - right after the name Abeir-Toril is mentioned. If thats the 'hidden nugget' from the grey box that has been referenced, then it would explain much. They are going to "un-Sunder" the world, and converge the timelines. :eek: <at least, thats my latest theory> ;) As a fellow comic-book afficionado, does this really come as much of a surprise? DC = Crisis Marvel = Ultimates Get it? ;)
Lord Karsus 09-27-07, 04:05 PM	-That's dumb. The planet is called Abeir-Toril. Period. There are no 'other worlds'- unless the other world is going to be some kind of adjecent temporal anomoly, where none of that crazy 4e stuff happens...
MarkusTay63 09-27-07, 04:13 PM	No, it's an adjacent temporal anomally, where the Sundering NEVER happened. The Sundering is the only major RSE in Toril's past that effected time AND would cause the kinds of changes they are planning in 4e. Think about it. From their point of view, they are setting the world RIGHT. It's the way the world would have been if the Elves hadn't cast their high magic ritual and 'mucked' with time. And at some point in the distant past, the folks of the planet stopped using the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril. ;) The only other way it would work is if they just put another continent where Anchorome is. They could do THAT without calling it a "disasterous merger of two worlds", so obviously they plan on bringing something into the Realms that 'belongs' elsewhere. More then likely, another setting or timeline.
GothicDan 09-27-07, 10:56 PM	Hurry, LK. Start cross-referencing your elven dictionary for anything resembling Abeir!
kaor 09-27-07, 11:53 PM	Not any more... even Ed hinted at the coming 'merger' in the last issue of Dragon. We will soon find out what happened to the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril (it was originally called by the full name, but then centuries ago people stopped using the Abeir for some reason). There is a teensy tiny 'blurb' in the original grey box that mentions 'parallel worlds' - right after the name Abeir-Toril is mentioned. If thats the 'hidden nugget' from the grey box that has been referenced, then it would explain much. What page is that on?
Lord Karsus 09-27-07, 11:58 PM	Hurry, LK. Start cross-referencing your elven dictionary for anything resembling Abeir! -There aren't even any words that begin with 'Ab'! -All 'Abeir' originally was was a way to get the planet's name as the first entry in an index! Now, all of this craziness!
MarkusTay63 09-28-07, 12:54 AM	It's called ret-connning my friend. Get used to it, we will be forced fed much over the coming year. What page is that on?It's in the introduction by Ed Greenwood on page four, where he discusses the name of the 'Frogotten Realms' and its myriad connections to the multiverse. I was mistaken though - Abeir-Toril isn't mentioned until you get to the second sourcebook from the box. The 'Parallel Timeline' is just my latest fun theory. ;)
kaor 09-28-07, 02:34 AM	I just now went to the page I think you meant. It pretty much says the Forgotten Realms is one of the the worlds in the Prime Material, and our earth is another. Nothing about what I thought you meant earlier. Who knows you may be right, but that reference seems to be of less worth than the one that says "Dove smashed black rock," or whatever. As of right now, the "Abeir" reference in the FR change is still a big mystery.
MarkusTay63 09-28-07, 10:55 AM	Abierron... Abeirrations... Abeirham Lincoln... Abeir to the first Orc to kill Drizzt. ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-28-07, 06:18 PM	Who knows you may be right, but that reference seems to be of less worth than the one that says "Dove smashed black rock," or whatever. And even that reference (if it is one) makes very little sense.