Post/Author/DateTime	Post
King-bargh 02-20-06, 01:55 PM	We all know that drow and elves are mortal enemies, but they seem very reluctant to actually DO something against each other. Now Elves are Chaotic Good, so no wonder they are incapable of any prolonged warfare or any serious selfsacrifice of any sort. (You didnt believe they were living in treeforts out of respect for nature did you? Heh, the slackers are too lazy to build cities!). But the drow have already proven their ability in Dambrath so why dont we see any real attempts on eradicating say Everaska? Stepping back abit we have two major disasters where Demons and Devils finished of two elven realms. Armies of demons is kind of overkill isnt it ?! Who was stupid enough to leave the gates open I wonder...and why not use natural, existing enemies? Ok, Ok we are playing Ed:s gaming leftovers, most of it VERY good, still I am not above changing the history of at least Myth Drannor to be the result of a drow-war. I can still have evil-outsiders left, the drow "salting the fields" so to say. Anyway is there any major reason for Drow being incapable of actualy scoring a major succes against the elves or has it happend and I missed that info?
Ripe 02-20-06, 04:36 PM	I'd say that there was at least two reasons for it: 1. Untill recentlly drows that spend some time on the surface would loose their SR, spell-like abilities, their items would stop functioning (or would turn into dust) which put together made any long term invasion on the surface difficult 2. [and more important] Drows are ruled and governed by Priestesses of Lolth (at least majority of them is) and said Priestesses were not interested in expansion on the surface when they had their little wars that could be fought in the Underdark (House vs. House; vs. Duergars; vs. Mind Flyers) and when their main goal was to establish and keeping control of their little Realms (meaning their individual Houses)
Kid SixXx 02-20-06, 04:50 PM	Anyway is there any major reason for Drow being incapable of actualy scoring a major succes against the elves or has it happend and I missed that info? The Drow are too busy fighting amonst themselves to ever score a victory against the surface elves. War of the Spider Queen, anyone?
Zasheir 02-20-06, 06:02 PM	1- Surface elves outnumber drow by a massive number. 2- When drow try to establish themselves on the surface, it's not only other elves that want to destroy them, everything on the surface hates them. 3- Frankly, surface elves are more skilled in magic and warfare than the drow. The drow are cursed, and until Corellon decides to lift that for whatever reason, they have to stay in their little holes in the ground.
Lord Karsus 02-20-06, 06:56 PM	There's a few reasons (some may mimic previous replies): -The Drow are too busy fighting themselves, and other races in the Underdark. Why open up another can of worms, and expend some of your resources fighting an enemy on the surface that never will be encroaching on your domain (for the most part). -As stated already, Drow weapons, armors, items, and the such are supposed to disintegrate when exposed to the light of the sun for a prolonged period of time. They also become weaker themselves. -Asides for summoned creatures, the Drow would have no allies on the surface. The Elves, however, would have pleanty of allies if an entire war of genocide happened. Even groups such as the Zhents would side with the surface Elves- Better with the enemy you know than the enemy you don't. -Simply, no one likes Drow. Drow don't even like Drow!
Demon_bane 02-20-06, 07:30 PM	Remember, Drow magic is usless on the surface. Powers will fade, even clerical magic. Not even the Highly Matron spider kissers can hold on to their Magic long enough, Leaving surface elves Highly more powerful.
Kuje31 02-20-06, 07:43 PM	Remember, Drow magic is usless on the surface. Powers will fade, even clerical magic. Not even the Highly Matron spider kissers can hold on to their Magic long enough, Leaving surface elves Highly more powerful. Not any more. :) And 3e retconned that unless those items have the property that is in the Underdark sourcebook.
Lord Karsus 02-20-06, 07:48 PM	Not any more. :) And 3e retconned that unless those items have the property that is in the Underdark sourcebook. -I always liked it better when Underdark items lost their powers in the light of the sun (Even though I've never even played 2e. That was something I always meant to add into my own 3e campaign, even though I never got the chance to). But, even so, the Drow do not really have a change to commit massive Elven Genocide.
Kuje31 02-20-06, 08:05 PM	-I always liked it better when Underdark items lost their powers in the light of the sun (Even though I've never even played 2e. That was something I always meant to add into my own 3e campaign, even though I never got the chance to). As do I and I kept that for my version. :)
Ripe 02-21-06, 03:21 AM	Personally I don't like the change either, but thanks to Elaine we all have a way around it - we simply rule that rulling Lolth's Priestesses keep the change secret from all the other drows (especially males) which is what she hinted at the end of Windwalker (where Shakti make sure that no drow who came with her on the surface survive combat with Rashemi, ensuring that only her, Triel and Quenthel know about it). Incidently that change is the main reason why there is no more drow raids on the surface by Lolthite drow, and why all the "surface" drow are followers of Eilistraee or Vheraun.
lone_ranger_84 02-21-06, 08:19 AM	I have to agree with Ripe after the Windwalker series Laereal (unsure on spelling) Baenrae carving the ruin on the tree alows Drow magic, items, and ablities to function on the surface. But what is strange in R.A. Salvatore books the drow tried to do a surface war with Dwarves before attacking the deep gnomes or the Illithids that are closer. They didn't even once suggest to attack any elves in that fight.
werk 02-21-06, 10:33 PM	Doesn't the fact that there are drow make the score 1-0 ? ;)
Lord Karsus 02-21-06, 11:11 PM	Doesn't the fact that there are drow make the score 1-0 ? ;) -True. That is a good point.
Arivia 02-21-06, 11:53 PM	-I always liked it better when Underdark items lost their powers in the light of the sun (Even though I've never even played 2e. That was something I always meant to add into my own 3e campaign, even though I never got the chance to). But, even so, the Drow do not really have a change to commit massive Elven Genocide. We really need to get all the unattached awesome posters around here together for a game.
Lord Karsus 02-21-06, 11:57 PM	We really need to get all the unattached awesome posters around here together for a game. -What do you mean? And, does this mean that Siamese Twins are not allowed to play? :rolleyes:
Arivia 02-22-06, 02:39 AM	-What do you mean? And, does this mean that Siamese Twins are not allowed to play? :rolleyes: Neeevermind.
Zanan 02-22-06, 03:55 AM	Rightio ... a few lines on the topic. Elves do not outnumber drow and are more often than not spread all over the place while drow are clustered into 40+ city states. The drow of the Underdark that is. The drow did war with the elves on numerous occasions and with the humans too. Just take a look at Cormanthyr (free download) to get an idea. The army of fiends which destroyed Myth Drannor was no creation of the drow, though their predecessors, the Ilythiiri, used fiends, dragons and the like as well. BTW, Myth Drannor was meant to be destroyed by the fiends and inhabited by them, so the FR players had something to explore and perish in. ;) Drow items and the surface. Dunno whether I recall it correctly, but Elaine Cunningham makes Liriel et al explain to herself why drow magic works on the surface now ... via Windwalker. I for one will not take this as THE canon explanation for 3e FR stuff. There are drow items which crumble on the surface, drowcraft items. There will be still a fair number of them around, but drow on the surface could very well use normal magic stuff too ... as any drow mage or cleric was/is very well capable of creating normal magical stuff too. Remember that only faerzress-treated items fall apart in sunshine. BTW, Underdark drow acting on the surface in sunshine will be a rare sight indeed. As for the "why" ... one of Lolth's dogmas is that the drow should not look after the surface (for the time being), but conquer the Underdark first and foremost. Then, there are continuous inter-city and inter-house wars, to cull out the weak. Now, having said that, one might expect that once Lolth decides that the time has come, she may well declare a ceasefire between the drow and send them out for war against the surface, whether against the elves or humans. Given the state of her religion and the power of her clerics over society, this could have devastating effects. 30 odd places spread all over Faerūn spawning a few hundred or thousand drow at night at the very same day ... to the unsuspecting surfacers. The response might be there, but ... (no, I do not envisage that for some time, just food for thought)
lone_ranger_84 02-22-06, 08:40 AM	Lloth has declared a cease fire between the drow in one of the last Cunningham books but its mainly to regroup and rebuild what is there. I remeber they had sacrificed a mere male and a hand maiden of Lloth showed up and told them no more sacrifices and no one could kill another drow for personal gain or else.
Zanan 02-22-06, 10:58 AM	Lloth has declared a cease fire between the drow in one of the last Cunningham books but its mainly to regroup and rebuild what is there. I remeber they had sacrificed a mere male and a hand maiden of Lloth showed up and told them no more sacrifices and no one could kill another drow for personal gain or else. This was because of the losses Menzoberranzan suffered in the war against Mithril Hall (and the sun). But you get the idea. If the Spider Queen wishes, the drow will follow her through hell and back. And the surface looks far brighter than hell, especially at night.
lone_ranger_84 02-22-06, 01:21 PM	I will have to agree w/ you on that one Zanan.
Faraer 02-22-06, 05:17 PM	About 'the drow': For most people in the Realms, 'the drow' are a legendary name of dread, not a familiar adversary. This wouldn't work if they were too active on the surface (as, in the current timeline, they sadly are). Politically and socially, there's no such thing as 'the drow' except in the vaguest sense. People in the Realms don't think globally, and (chaotic evil) drow are even more fractious and divided than humans. Elves don't outnumber drow? That would surprise me. I think Elaine and the books department erred in publishing that explanation of drow items on the surface. It was an annoying but temporary 3E rules artefact before it was enshrined in Realmslore.
Zasheir 02-22-06, 05:28 PM	Elves do not outnumber drow So a single CE subrace of elves who live in a constant state of brutal warfare with other hostile neighbors in the underdark and who kill each other at about the same rate as they reproduce outnumber six subraces of surface elves who (once did war incessently) now live in a state of peace and prosperity in mostly isolated communities on the surface? K.
King-bargh 02-23-06, 05:38 AM	The army of fiends which destroyed Myth Drannor was no creation of the drow, though their predecessors, the Ilythiiri, used fiends, dragons and the like as well. BTW, Myth Drannor was meant to be destroyed by the fiends and inhabited by them, so the FR players had something to explore and perish in. ;) Aha! And I guess that is the true purpose for drow as well, something to challenge high-level partys without disrupting life for the common man. Makes sense. Thanks! :)
Zanan 02-23-06, 09:09 AM	Aha! And I guess that is the true purpose for drow as well, something to challenge high-level partys without disrupting life for the common man. Makes sense. Thanks! :) And if ... you know ... your history ... Drow take slaves as often as they could and can. Check the Night Wars in Calimshan, the raids on Shadowdale et al. And they were/are indeed meant to pose a decent challenge to any adventuring party in-game, as well as posing a constant danger to the whole world above within the setting as such. Drow reproduction rate is higher than that of the surface elves. They don't kill each other, nobles "love" the bloodshed within the houses. Nobles make up some 10 % of society. We do not know of any siginificant inter drow war (pre-WotSQ) for quite some time. As for numbers ... that was a direct counter - remark to the 0:0 score. There may be more elves in total, but those surface elves rarely work together, are far more widely spread (or clustered in a couple of places - Evermeet & Evereska) and in general are not as warlike as the drow. That's the point. As in: numbers alone do not guarantee you anything.
GothicDan 02-24-06, 12:37 PM	I pretty much agree with 100% of what Faraer said. Zanan: Drow reproduction rate is higher than that of the surface elves. They don't kill each other, nobles "love" the bloodshed within the houses. But commoners are killed in the constant threats pressing in on them from all sides of the Underdark and in the crossfire of noble Houses' wars on each other. Also, how much evidence do we have as to the day-to-day lives and violent (or lack thereof) habits of common Drow? Remember, that the Drow of FR were meant to be, from the beginning, CE as a whole - as a race, not merely the aristocracy. Unless there's an in-story reason for the change that 3E made (besides saying, 'Oh that really isn't how it works despite the fact that it's been that way for years.'), and a subsequent reflection in a major change in Drow society as a whole, they should still be CE. There has been no reason stated for this change, and past Editions have always had the Drow, from commoner to noble, CE (referencing their original entry from 1E, for example). There is no major change in the society of the Oerdian Drow in regards to the Faerunian Drow, therefore their alignments should match still. And to be even more specific to Faerunian Drow (if someone insists on it) - why would a subrace of Elves who were CG before Descent (as pretty much all Elves were, at one time), who were subsequently ostrasized by the greater Elven society at large, manipulated by a CE Balor, made war upon, cursed, banished, and then survived thanks to the... aid of a highly CE Goddess and her clergy... Somehow become Neutral? Nobles make up some 10 % of society. We do not know of any siginificant inter drow war (pre-WotSQ) for quite some time. One cannot use lack of evidence as a case unless there's something that previously fills the gap of knowledge. In other words, just because we haven't heard of it, doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. As Faraer rightly points out on numerous occasions, what we read in the novels and the sourcebooks is only a fraction of what goes on in Faerun (and under it). One cannot discount the previous descriptions, historic events, and culture of the Drow just because we have no recent evidence supporting it; there's no direct evidence to contradict it, either. As for numbers ... that was a direct counter - remark to the 0:0 score. There may be more elves in total, but those surface elves rarely work together, are far more widely spread (or clustered in a couple of places - Evermeet & Evereska) and in general are not as warlike as the drow. That's the point. As in: numbers alone do not guarantee you anything. I'm greatly amused by the fact that you point out that the surface Elves rarely work together. As you pointed out, the vast majority of their clerical and magical might is concentrated in two areas; I think that says they have a heck of a lot more organization and empathy with each other than the Drow. The very fact that they can use Elven High Magic and that they can slip into Reverie is a direct counter to your statement that as a whole they are less socially fragmented in the Drow - or at least that their fragmentation is greater than the Drow's in a way that it would negatively affect them in times of militant distress, moreso than it would negatively affect the Drow in the same situation. And, historically speaking, it's not usually the most warlike cultures that end up coming out on top in the end.
Telagaunt 02-24-06, 12:49 PM	I have to agree with Ripe after the Windwalker series Laereal (unsure on spelling) Baenrae carving the ruin on the tree alows Drow magic, items, and ablities to function on the surface. But what is strange in R.A. Salvatore books the drow tried to do a surface war with Dwarves before attacking the deep gnomes or the Illithids that are closer. They didn't even once suggest to attack any elves in that fight. That's because former Matron Baenre had a vendetta against the Battlehammers and Mithral Hall. There wasn't much goal or purpose in attacking the gnome or illithid cities. And elves, it was a Menzoberranzen campaign, that's not enough for an full scale invasion (look how the attack on Mithral Hall failed). Plus, the only way the drow would do a full-scale invasion of elves is if Lolth sanctioned it, and she knows at this point in time she'd lose. So she keeps her drow in the dark about the practicalities of fighting their natural enemies. Plus, she has more to deal with in the Underdark, i.e WotSQ series.
Zanan 02-24-06, 07:48 PM	Gothic Dan ... Also, how much evidence do we have as to the day-to-day lives and violent (or lack thereof) habits of common Drow? Well, if there would be as much bloodshed amongst the drow in general as there is amongst the nobles, there would not be any existing drow city beneath Faerūn, let alone 40+. Remember, that the Drow of FR were meant to be, from the beginning, CE as a whole - as a race, not merely the aristocracy. Unless there's an in-story reason for the change that 3E made (besides saying, 'Oh that really isn't how it works despite the fact that it's been that way for years.'), and a subsequent reflection in a major change in Drow society as a whole, they should still be CE. "Should" does not work any longer. Many people have argued that a CE society will not sustain itself over 12,000 years, unless it is utterly militaristic. Which the drow are, actually. Now, the Wizards, very sensibly, changed the general alignment of the race to NE and now it makes a far better reading. What Gygax intended is fine. Monsters to be slaughtered. The Wizards needed a decent explanation for sustained drow city life beneath Faerūn and acted - alas - now. That's canon now, whether you like it or not. And to be even more specific to Faerunian Drow (if someone insists on it) - why would a subrace of Elves who were CG before Descent (as pretty much all Elves were, at one time), who were subsequently ostrasized by the greater Elven society at large, manipulated by a CE Balor, made war upon, cursed, banished, and then survived thanks to the... aid of a highly CE Goddess and her clergy... Somehow become Neutral? I never read any sourcebook saying that the dark elves were chaotic good before the Descent. So I take that as your assumption ... and kindly tend to disagree. Why they became neutral? You see, they needed to survive. The goddess and the balor manipulate the priestesses and matrons, not necessarily the whole society. And, just in case, Lolth's domain represents a certain aspect of her alignment too: moderately chaotic, strongly evil. (The Demonweb Pits that is.) Yes, Lolth love the Chaos, but even her domain is more evil than chaotic. Thus there is no reason that the drow HAVE to be Chaotic and Evil. A good deal of them might be, especially the priestesses, no doubt about this. One cannot use lack of evidence as a case unless there's something that previously fills the gap of knowledge. In other words, just because we haven't heard of it, doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. As Faraer rightly points out on numerous occasions, what we read in the novels and the sourcebooks is only a fraction of what goes on in Faerun (and under it). So it is better to exaggerate the nobles activities to the whole society? And ignore the fact that these drow cities have been there for the better part of 5,000 years without descending into chaos and vanish? The gaps are filled, if you choose to look in the right places. One cannot discount the previous descriptions, historic events, and culture of the Drow just because we have no recent evidence supporting it; there's no direct evidence to contradict it, either. Well, unless there is no other proof, the drow cities are there, the numbers have not dwindled - only in one city, Llurth Dreier - and even the WotSQ has not always had an effect. Yes, Menzo suffered, Ched Nasad and Maerimydra even more. But some other cities remained more or less unscathed, e.g. Eryndlyn, Sshamath or Sschindylryn. And, BTW, which historic event I did discount? I do discount older sources regarding alignment. BTW, after suffering losses in the war against Mithril Hall, it took Menzo just 15 years to almost regain its previous strength and slaughter the gnomes of Blingdenstone, according to sourcebooks and novels. That tells its own story. I'm greatly amused by the fact that you point out that the surface Elves rarely work together. As you pointed out, the vast majority of their clerical and magical might is concentrated in two areas; I think that says they have a heck of a lot more organization and empathy with each other than the Drow. Now, honestly, that draws more than a smile. The elves have retreated to these places ... for well known reasons. On the other hand, what sort of argument is this? I mean, I could simply counter saying: "the drow have concentrated into forty odd cities and survived there for 5,000 years, which says a lot about their organization and skills of survival in a far more hostile environment than the surface elves have ever encountered." The very fact that they can use Elven High Magic and that they can slip into Reverie is a direct counter to your statement that as a whole they are less socially fragmented in the Drow - or at least that their fragmentation is greater than the Drow's in a way that it would negatively affect them in times of militant distress, moreso than it would negatively affect the Drow in the same situation. Yes ... recent novels and sourcebooks suggest that the number of high magi is down to less than a dozen these days (though I might err here). Who needs High Magic when any decent drow has access to Epic Level spells et all, who are in essence of equal standing as Elven High Magic spells? What Reverie has to do with social fragmentation is somewhat beyond me, but ... The argument here is that while Evermeet, a remote place half a planet away from the rest of Faerūn, is a safehaven for the elves and may sport a number of powerful folk and even armies, the only other place of concentration of elves - organized elves - is Evereska. A city of some 20,000 elves ... decimated by the phaerimm's onslaught recently. The rest of the elves on mainland Faerūn is widely spread, will hardly work together all the time or for another - unless in dire need. Also represented in various recent novels. Compare that to the drow. A city of Eryndlyn's size will most likely counter Evereska in man- and spellpower, and there are 40 odd more cities spread all over Faerūn of around the size of Menzo. Most of which under the rule of the Lolthites. The sectarianism shown by the drow is most likely second to none in Faerūn ... so if Lolth calls, the drow will follow. Most likely all at once. You can hardly say that of any surface realm, elven or not. Let me stress here ... this is not what I envisage, but it is a very possible option. Look what half a dozen semi-decent fey'ri chaps did on Evermeet, or the army of Sarya. Imagine what a concentrated onslaught of far greater numbers of enemies and potentially more powerful spellcasters than Sarya (despite her mythal leeching stuff) could "yield". And, historically speaking, it's not usually the most warlike cultures that end up coming out on top in the end. Yep. Though they can change the face of the world for quite some time, e.g. the Romans. BTW, this is all very much about ifs and buts. Let's not become entangled in a war of words about highly unlikely hypothesis', aye? @ Telegaunt .. why would Lolth assume that she would loose?
Telagaunt 02-24-06, 09:08 PM	While drow numbers in the Underdark are large, the simple magnitude of allies elves would have vs. drow. Plus, you'd get a lot of angry high levels at the drow army, true, drow have their own, Gromph, the wizards of Sshamath, countless priests, but you bet your ass munchkins like Chosen, even Drizzt and Co. are going to step in. Especially if the drow go after Evereska which just came out of the war with the phaerimm (and Shadovar more or less), and now it's got it's new mythal. You may even get evil factions to help out as someone stated above. Plus, other drow on the surface, namely Vhaerun's would try to stop Lolth. Yeah, it's a drow invasion, but Vhaerun despises Lolth, no way would he let her win the surface. The drow could gain some allies, possibily illithids, but more than likely, if Lolth sends out her drow armies, thus leaving the cities weakened (Ched Nasad is already in ruins, Menzoberranzen just came out of a siege, plus the defeat with Mithral Hall, and Sshamath I hardly doubt would give much aid), for other Underdark denziens to attack. Plus there's no real benefit (yet) for Lolth to try to bring down elves. Things are chaotic on the surface, ranging from all the latest RSE sure, but an attempt at mass genocide? Idk yet. The only true possible allies I could think the drow would be able to get are the Shadovar. And it's not like they'd be sending their troops, it's more like they'd give some aid, and most likely try to hide in the shadows as best they can. Drow don't have the simple manpower yet. Sure they have countless fodder, but that's not going to win the war, the drow will need to leave their cities, and that's too risky. Especially with the Jaezred Chausselin (sp?) looking for any opportunity to bring Menzo down. EDIT: Plus someone mentioned a truce b/c of the whole Windwalker thing? I haven't read the last novel in the series yet, but that's another possible weakness if drow invaded the surface. Many are going to try to undue the amulet. And if mortals cant, well, there's always Mystra who most probably would. Especially since she's allies with Eilistraee. And a whole drow daughter thing helps the surface too, so once Mystra gets involved...
Lord Karsus 02-24-06, 11:19 PM	Elves do not outnumber Drow -or- Drow do not outnumber Elves -Just wanted to point out: Drow are Elves, and vice-versa. Everyone means: Surface Elves do not outnumber Drow -or- Drow do not outnumber Surface Elves
Zanan 02-25-06, 04:54 AM	There are a lot of factors to be taken into consideration. Take the Menzoberranyr. They have learned from failure at Keeper's Dale and hence slaughtered the deep gnomes of Blingdenstone with extraplanar help. The drow despise the surface dwellers. They will use any tactic necessary to weaken or surprise their opponents, before poring onto the surface themselves. Just imagine a middle sized city where a mage teleports into, opens a gate and lets three dozens of demons or devils on the loose. Repeated a few times in the weeks and months thereafter. Allies? The drow will most likely ally themselves with either evil organizations or goblinoids, as they did before. Someone who do the work for them. And, BTW, Menzo was far from defenseless while it's army was marching on Mithril Hall. The whole thing is about ifs and buts. Obviously, at this moment and time, Lolth has no interest in the surface ... though she will without doubt welcome any elf hunting party. As in: there is no real point in discussing about what might be if the drow suddenly decide to wage war on the surface. Unless one loves the hypothetical stuff. Drow are only technically elves. ;)
Telagaunt 02-25-06, 12:54 PM	Allies? The drow will most likely ally themselves with either evil organizations or goblinoids, as they did before. Someone who do the work for them. And, BTW, Menzo was far from defenseless while it's army was marching on Mithril Hall. Yeah but for a full fledged surface campaign, and considering the various nations, organizations, etc... they'd have to fight, they'll be using a lot more of their own drow.
Lord Karsus 02-25-06, 11:10 PM	Drow are only technically elves. ;) -Drow are more Elves then they'll admit to. Physiologically, they are nearly similar to Moon Elves, Gold Elves and/or Wild Elves. Anatomically, they are nearly similar to Moon Elves, Gold Elves and/or Wild Elves. Sure, psychologically and sociologically, they are different, but that opens a new can of worms, and doesn't really have much to do with this thread.
Zanan 02-26-06, 05:24 AM	Yeah but for a full fledged surface campaign, and considering the various nations, organizations, etc... they'd have to fight, they'll be using a lot more of their own drow. Well, there are many many ways to wage wars against the surface. The e.g. Night Wars in Calimshan lasted for 260 years (generations of human population). There is no need for the drow to hurry this. They can spent a decade on spying, waiting for the best dates to strike and undermine society all the while ... said assassinations, demon summoning, poisioning of water supplies of army camps or whole cities and what have you. Just as food for thought. The point here is too, that on Lolth command an entire race could follow a call to arms all over ... under Faerūn. A race full of magic, skill and focussed determination - if required. No, I am not trying to paint a gloryfied picture of the drow, just taking what is there and what we know.
Zsych 02-26-06, 03:50 PM	The Shadowvar work with the Drow?? Rather far from the Underdark :) But the Shadowvar, being former Netherese, likely have a rather low opinion of elves of any sort. After Windwalker though, i'd say that virtually all Drow magical items and spells are working. Probably a prelude to something interesting happening. As for whether Lloth/Lolth would actually send her drow out yet... Hmm... i recall that Lloth had children with that Ilythiri wizard she took for consort(in the Evermeet novel), and it was said somewhere that all Drow are her descendents(to some degree). I think that maybe she's trying to perfect her evil race. The harsh rules of Drow society controlling treachery mean that you have to do it with expertise. The weak and incompetant are destroyed... Slowly leading to a stronger(and more evil) drow race. Makes you wonder what they might be like after twenty thousand more yearsof breeding(time for a few time travellers to enter the game... not using Mystryl's limited Time Travel spell... possibly doing the time travel on some other plane to avoid interference) Wonder if Lloth does any actual direct modification, or if she might guide some wizards to do it as an experiment. Her new seperate Demon Web Pits (plane) should be the prelude to something... EVIL.....
Telagaunt 02-26-06, 05:40 PM	The Shadowvar work with the Drow?? Rather far from the Underdark :) But the Shadowvar, being former Netherese, likely have a rather low opinion of elves of any sort. Yes, but in one of the WotSQ novels its suggested Triel was meeting with an ambassador from Shade. The Shadovar could have some advantages working with Drow, but, it is still unlikely. But they'd probably have the most to gain from allying with drow, as opposed to other organizations and nations.
Zsych 02-27-06, 01:25 AM	That doesn't mean that the Shades would respect the drow or consider them much more than tools to be used and thrown away. The Shades do need decent allies though. (One wonders why the only Netherese to return turn out to be evil idiots who don't even use the full potential of the magic they have on hand... and couldn't they even have managed to maintain the goodness facade a little longer? After thousands of years in the Shadow plane, they should've learned some patience)
Zanan 02-27-06, 03:46 AM	As for whether Lloth/Lolth would actually send her drow out yet... Hmm... i recall that Lloth had children with that Ilythiri wizard she took for consort(in the Evermeet novel), and it was said somewhere that all Drow are her descendents(to some degree). No, that was a hypothesis thrown up by my good old friend ... ehm ... adversary GothicDan. It has never been said that Lolth and the wizard actually had any children and the author of the said book has since cleared up the issue and said that she was referring to the drow / dark elves in general, not any children of the couple. I.e., the Faerūnian drow are not her "descendents".
Telagaunt 02-27-06, 12:12 PM	That doesn't mean that the Shades would respect the drow or consider them much more than tools to be used and thrown away. The Shades do need decent allies though. (One wonders why the only Netherese to return turn out to be evil idiots who don't even use the full potential of the magic they have on hand... and couldn't they even have managed to maintain the goodness facade a little longer? After thousands of years in the Shadow plane, they should've learned some patience) I never said the Shades would respect the drow, or anyone for that matter :D Use the drow as mere tools of course. My point was, almost everyone hates the drow. And the only likely ally IMO could be the Shades, however, they wouldn't ally with the drow b/c of the drow's reasons for a campaign on the surface, they'd ally with the drow b/c it would help them in some way (maybe some plot that the drow would make a good cover for the Shadovar to work their scheme [like melting the High Ice in RotA], or whatever). In no way I meant the Shadovar would ally drow out of respect, or 'helping' them. Hell, the Shadovar aren't interested in allying the Red Wizards despite their proposals. Shade isn't looking for allies, just tools. While there's probably a lot of drow in the Underdark, there's not enough to make a full fledged campaign war on the Surface, they'd have too many fronts and allies of the elves to deal with. IF the drow could isolate their target somehow, or maybe band together to destroy a single city, or something smaller (as opposed to mass genocide) now that's plausable.
Lord Karsus 02-27-06, 10:41 PM	But the Shadowvar, being former Netherese, likely have a rather low opinion of elves of any sort. -Actually, the Shadovar may have gotten over that prejudice. After all, Hadrhune, High Prince Telamont's right hand, is a Shade Elf... ;)