Encounter CR Adjustments for Non-Standard Parties [Archive] - Wizards Community

Encounter CR Adjustments for Non-Standard Parties [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
crystaldragon
09-16-04, 12:23 PM Hi all,

Perhaps this topic has been addressed before -- with the search feature out of commission I can't be sure. Please forgive me if this is old hat.

In the game I currently play in, the party is very definitely not the standard single-class fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric of the basic races. The composition has varied as players drop out or join in, but nearly all the characters have been multiclass, odd races (with level adjustments), or normal races but wierd race+class combinations.

The current party consists of:
Elf lycanthrope (werebat) CLR 12 (total LVL 15)
Half-elf FTR 4/SOR/6/Dragon Dis 4 (total 14)
(with cohort human WIZ 12)
Dwarf FTR 4/ROG 5/Shadowdancer 3 (tot 12)
Troll paladin of Tyr (it's a long story!) PAL 8 (total LVL 13)
Juvenile Bronze Dragon (Total character level uncertain)

Previous members included a half-orc druid (lvl 14) and an Elf SOR 6/ROG/ 6/ Mind bender 2 (I think that's what the PRC was called, it's in Tome and Blood, and her cohort, a Lythari (elven werewolf) ranger 9.

Due to these odd combos, some encounters, especially those that are primarily melee combat, are ridiculously easy for us, while others, particularly those against outsiders or undead, prove more difficult than they are rated as being. Right now, since we have neither a ranger nor a druid, wilderness settings pose serious problems -- only the dragon has the Survival skill at all, nobody happens to speak Sylvan, etc. We're also weak on the rogue skills, and quiet, sneaky missions are IMPOSSIBLE.

I tried to come up with a system to figure out what the encounter level should be based on how the actual combat went, such as how many rounds it took, what percent of the party's HP were taken in damage, how many total spell levels were cast, etc. but this proved too complex and unwieldy. I know the DMG says the GM is supposed to take party variances into account when determining what the encounter level should be, but ours finds the DMG instructions too vague, so apparently he usually sticks with the CRs as given in the MM, MMII, etc. This results in easy encounters being far more XP than they're worth, and really difficult encounters being worth next to nothing because the CRs were assuming a very different party makeup.

So the question is, have any of you had this problem? If so, how did you solve it?

-Crystaldragon

Do good when you can. Do evil when you must.
-Armand
diaglo
09-16-04, 12:57 PM when parties get larger than 4. you have to adjust the ECL. cohorts and such count. esp when the cohorts are close in level to the PCs.
diaglo
09-16-04, 01:00 PM the problem then becomes the CR on one monster can be too high as compared the avg party member.

the stats given in the MM and such are just for typical members of the race. your DM needs to bump them up. and add some flavor of his own for the weaker monsters... or do like he is doing for more powerful monsters....but bump down hps and ability stats....
warlockco
09-16-04, 08:24 PM I have run into that problem a bit with 2 two of my 3 D&D games that I'm running especially one of them.

1st Game is a a testbed to determine what will be allowed in the other games, its called the wacky game. There is anywhere from 3-8 PCs at any time. Average ECL is 16 but some go as high as ECL 22. Many of the PCs have templates like Half-Dragon and Half-Celestial.
For rewarding of XP I use ECL 16-18 for the weaker encounters, and tend to use ECL 18 for the stronger encounters.
For encounter strength, I usually give more HPs to the monsters either 75% to 100% max to give the PCs more of a fight. Or throw in more monsters.

2nd Game is a Drow Underdark game based out of Menzoberranzan. The PCs are currently 4th level (party of 5 counting the NPC). For Melee Encounters, I treat the PC as 4th level and give XP accordingly, for Magical Encounters, I treat the PCs as 6th level and give XP accordingly.

3rd Game is a Rokugani Oriental Adventures game, I don't adjust XP, but I do give the monsters 75% to 100% HPs just so they have a chance to survive the 1st round. Darn Katanas just make short work of the monsters, especially when all but one PC is Samurai. 5 Samurai and 1 Shugenja.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crystaldragon 09-16-04, 12:23 PM	Hi all, Perhaps this topic has been addressed before -- with the search feature out of commission I can't be sure. Please forgive me if this is old hat. In the game I currently play in, the party is very definitely not the standard single-class fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric of the basic races. The composition has varied as players drop out or join in, but nearly all the characters have been multiclass, odd races (with level adjustments), or normal races but wierd race+class combinations. The current party consists of: Elf lycanthrope (werebat) CLR 12 (total LVL 15) Half-elf FTR 4/SOR/6/Dragon Dis 4 (total 14) (with cohort human WIZ 12) Dwarf FTR 4/ROG 5/Shadowdancer 3 (tot 12) Troll paladin of Tyr (it's a long story!) PAL 8 (total LVL 13) Juvenile Bronze Dragon (Total character level uncertain) Previous members included a half-orc druid (lvl 14) and an Elf SOR 6/ROG/ 6/ Mind bender 2 (I think that's what the PRC was called, it's in Tome and Blood, and her cohort, a Lythari (elven werewolf) ranger 9. Due to these odd combos, some encounters, especially those that are primarily melee combat, are ridiculously easy for us, while others, particularly those against outsiders or undead, prove more difficult than they are rated as being. Right now, since we have neither a ranger nor a druid, wilderness settings pose serious problems -- only the dragon has the Survival skill at all, nobody happens to speak Sylvan, etc. We're also weak on the rogue skills, and quiet, sneaky missions are IMPOSSIBLE. I tried to come up with a system to figure out what the encounter level should be based on how the actual combat went, such as how many rounds it took, what percent of the party's HP were taken in damage, how many total spell levels were cast, etc. but this proved too complex and unwieldy. I know the DMG says the GM is supposed to take party variances into account when determining what the encounter level should be, but ours finds the DMG instructions too vague, so apparently he usually sticks with the CRs as given in the MM, MMII, etc. This results in easy encounters being far more XP than they're worth, and really difficult encounters being worth next to nothing because the CRs were assuming a very different party makeup. So the question is, have any of you had this problem? If so, how did you solve it? -Crystaldragon Do good when you can. Do evil when you must. -Armand
diaglo 09-16-04, 12:57 PM	when parties get larger than 4. you have to adjust the ECL. cohorts and such count. esp when the cohorts are close in level to the PCs.
diaglo 09-16-04, 01:00 PM	the problem then becomes the CR on one monster can be too high as compared the avg party member. the stats given in the MM and such are just for typical members of the race. your DM needs to bump them up. and add some flavor of his own for the weaker monsters... or do like he is doing for more powerful monsters....but bump down hps and ability stats....
warlockco 09-16-04, 08:24 PM	I have run into that problem a bit with 2 two of my 3 D&D games that I'm running especially one of them. 1st Game is a a testbed to determine what will be allowed in the other games, its called the wacky game. There is anywhere from 3-8 PCs at any time. Average ECL is 16 but some go as high as ECL 22. Many of the PCs have templates like Half-Dragon and Half-Celestial. For rewarding of XP I use ECL 16-18 for the weaker encounters, and tend to use ECL 18 for the stronger encounters. For encounter strength, I usually give more HPs to the monsters either 75% to 100% max to give the PCs more of a fight. Or throw in more monsters. 2nd Game is a Drow Underdark game based out of Menzoberranzan. The PCs are currently 4th level (party of 5 counting the NPC). For Melee Encounters, I treat the PC as 4th level and give XP accordingly, for Magical Encounters, I treat the PCs as 6th level and give XP accordingly. 3rd Game is a Rokugani Oriental Adventures game, I don't adjust XP, but I do give the monsters 75% to 100% HPs just so they have a chance to survive the 1st round. Darn Katanas just make short work of the monsters, especially when all but one PC is Samurai. 5 Samurai and 1 Shugenja.