Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mystery Man 05-10-04, 03:56 PM	I just got the ELH (yeah I know its been out forever but I'm slow) and I'm flat out impressed, especially with the update doc to 3.5. Has anyone run the epic level adventure in Dungeon, I forget what its called but it has to do with an angry storm giant?Considering this ongoing "thing" I have with giants IMC this would make a great addition to pull from should I ever get my players up into the epic levels.
Chronomage 05-10-04, 06:36 PM	I haven't yet run an EL campaign in Faerun, but I've been giving it a lot of thought. Faerun supports campaigns of up to 20th level no problem without the players causing such a ruckus they would create a stir able to forever change the face of Faerun (I.E. destroy the Zhentarim). The NPCs of levels able to define the face of Faerun usually run from level 17 to 33 or so. One thing you might consider doing is updating the stats of the NPCs with a certain fraction of the xp your players have gained from 1st to 21s level. Maybe 25% or higher. This is done so the players will have a slightly harder time of it, but it's still possible. Than update statistics because many NPCs just plain suck as presented in the FRCS. Rebuy equipment (save for signature items) as necessary for increased levels. The campaign world can support with some work adventures up to 27th level with a stretch, after which the players very likely will start to do a campaign buster. They might take on Shade herself, or go spell to spell with the Twisted Rune. My advice is to create a shadow world, one consisting of Epic Level characters that have goals and plots that affect the world in subtle ways but flex their muscles in greater spheres, such as the Planes. A great epic campaign would involve the characters leading an Assault on Hell or the Abyss, at the forefront of a massive army of good aligned characters, as when the Valar in Silmarillion made their assault on Morgoth, or in the 2nd age when the Free Peoples of Middle Earth, in the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, made war on Sauron and destroyed him. Just some thoughts. I could keep going so feel free to post questions or thoughts you yourself have and I'll offer what I can.
AvengedMutablegenus 05-10-04, 06:42 PM	what i would do for epic is a couple of things 1)No epic spells (unless high mage or arcanist, see RoF and PGtF) 2) Undermountain should still be a challenge 3) boost all npc's by 10 levels that are major (Example, drizzt used to be 16th in epic he should be 26th) 4)Check the characters, don't allow any abuse of the rules, especially true in Faerun, abuse of rules don't go over well in the world 5) Remember mystras control of all non shadow and non psionic power
Cunning Linguist 05-10-04, 08:05 PM	For epic I would do the following: Don't mess around with the normal Faerun, don't change the level, or anything. Epic magic should be used by your magic users whenever they have the ability to get the Epic Spellcasting feat. Players might (or will) feal cheated for playing a epic game, but not having epic magic. However, think long and hard about all spells they produce, might want to have them deliver a outcast of a spell they want one session, and tell them if they can or cannot use it by the next. Look over every loophole, and make sure the spell is watertight. Epic Spells can run a epic game offrail. Use the ELH for what it's worth. It has a 101 ideas for epic adventure, all of them fit into FR without any major change. There are NPC's up to level 35 in the realms, lots of levels to keep you going.. once your past level 35, you might want to start thinking about a) Movien into the planes, or b) Moving the planes into Faerun.
Chronomage 05-10-04, 09:13 PM	Adding to Cunning Linguist: Also, note that though the highest level in FR is around 35 (Prince of Shade, right?) that is not the highest CR. In fact, the shade template probably adds 2 to the Princes level.
AvengedMutablegenus 05-10-04, 09:40 PM	Nice points, cunning
Mystery Man 05-11-04, 09:44 AM	Yep, well said. I think the scariest part of the ELH is the making of spells. :) But thats a ways off yet. I would have no intention of taking that away from my players, I know that one of them eats that stuff up like candy. b) Moving the planes into Faerun. knowing my guys, this is inevitable. :rolleyes: Keep the suggestions coming, personally I think EL's are an important part of FR campaigning.
Cunning Linguist 05-11-04, 10:19 AM	ohh, also an idea.. Move it back to Netheril. In those days, there was high level NPC's all over the place. Inside the Empire, the small monsters, like orcs and goblins where no longer a problem, the real problem came from magic gone haywire, and the Legendary Ur-creatures that lurk outside the borders of the Empire. I don't see where you could place a Astropal in the Realms without having it effect large areas, but place it in a far off place in the Netheril Timeline, and it would be worth the bother of a epic level party. Things like a Iron Colossus or a Adamantine Golem would be hard to place in the realms, since there are so few people who would be able to create them, but back in Netheril, there was atleast a few hundred people who could make them. Things like Devestation vermin could be a common problem for the Netheril empire, comming from the "outside" and trying to destroy the farms on the ground. Seeing how the Wizards lived on the Enclave the Devestation vermin would not make the whole empire fall apart, but it would be a minor problem, unlike in the realms today, where a Devestation Vermin would be a realm shaking event.
Mystery Man 05-11-04, 01:30 PM	Netheril. I've got this thing bouncing around in the back of my head regarding the remains of Karsus, well, not Karsus or really having anything to do with him but what slid off of him when his try for dietyhood failed. The essence of what it was that failed manisfested itself in the form of an Atropal and was supposedly defeated and buried under the sands of Anarouch for all time. That is of course until my players start messing around in that area chasing or excavating either a red herring or something else legit and set it free. Havoc and mayhem ensue, they have to deal with the situation etc.. One possible way would be to travel back in time and try to stop it at the source somehow, opening all sorts of different avenues to get into all kinds of trouble. :)
Mystery Man 05-11-04, 01:44 PM	Oh, and how the heck does one pronounce chichimec? is it chee chee meck? (like chi chi rodriguez?) ki ki meck? chi chi (long I) mess?
Lord Mortanius 05-14-04, 02:43 AM	Originally posted by Chronomage Adding to Cunning Linguist: Also, note that though the highest level in FR is around 35 (Prince of Shade, right?) that is not the highest CR. In fact, the shade template probably adds 2 to the Princes level. Shoon VII is a level 36 necromancer demilich.
Cunning Linguist 05-14-04, 05:34 AM	Originally posted by Lord Mortanius Shoon VII is a level 36 necromancer demilich. Last I heard, he was long gone.
Chronomage 05-14-04, 06:11 AM	I'm talking about Telamont. Hold on, I got LoD. Lessee here: Wiz 20/Archmage 5/Shadowadept 10. So, yeah, 35th level, CR around 37. Damn. I say, Goddamm. Actually, i'm kinda surprised he's not a netheril arcanist (oh yeah, 3rd edition it was, 3.5 it is). ARE there any Netheril Arcanists, alive, that is? (or undead).
Chronomage 05-14-04, 06:15 AM	Originally posted by Lord Mortanius Shoon VII is a level 36 necromancer demilich. level 36 Demilich? CR around 44. Okay, that's massive. Lessee here: Wizard 5/Shadow Adept 21/Archmage 5/Netherese Arcanist 5. Yeah, that would scare the crap out of me.
MrkGrismer 05-21-04, 11:13 AM	You can always figure a way for all the 'evil' societies to finally come together (perhaps through the behind-the-scenes manipulation of somebody level 40+, or another secret society) and simultaneously 'try to take over the world.' {Yessss Pinky, yesss}. Real World War type thing. Nothing but fun then...
ClobberinTime 05-21-04, 02:00 PM	at around 21st level or so I would really start putting the PCs alignments to the test (i.e. good pcs). Have travelers from some city ask them to be the new king. Force them into a leadership role over the puny humans surrounding them. Make them responsible for keeping an area of faerun safe. In other words give them something that they don't want to lose. A castle, etc... At that level and being good they would have responsibilities to the Gods, humanity, or someone especially if they are good. If they are neutral or evil when they start to get to around 20th level they are going to start making the powers that be a little nervous. El, or the Simbul or someone might show up and say hey what are you designs here. Khelben would certainly be on the ball on this one. Evil organizations don't like competition either. Just showing up in Calimishan might provoke an attack from the Twisted rune. Keep them guessing as to just how powerful people are around them. Also yes totally get rid of the NPC gear rules for iconic chars over 20th level or for the leaders of nations. You better believe Alusair is wearing some of the only epic bits of protection that Cormyr has to offer. Run a campaign ala Greyhawk with Robilar freeing Iuz, they created it now they have to stop it.
Sylvos 05-21-04, 04:35 PM	Running an epic campaign in Faerin isn't really that hard. There are several areas that you can still go epic even within the standard adventure areas. Shade is a great one, epic level wizards out the wazoo. The use of Advanced monsters work great, some dragons and underdark adventures can be augemented with advanced mobs. Certain organizations such as the Twisted Rune, Cult of the Dragon, Zhentarim have epic level NPC's that can drag the players into the outerplanes if need be. One thing we did which my playesr kinda liked, I made them go south, far south into an area of "Forgotten Toril" essentially there is a continent east of Zahkara and South of Kara Tur. I made it seperated by an anti-magic wall that would not allow any form of magical travel/gating/scrying etc.. During the Dawn Cataclysm a battle was waged and it destroyed the land it took place on, warped deific magic and corrupted weave caused the creatures and denizens there to change and evolve. This area which we called Azanth, was a forgotten empire where you had warped versions of your standard monsters, a few dead gods remnants of power just waiting to be reinstated/found again. A dragon empire with a Dragon King, a Rakshasa nation brought over by part of the Plane of Shadow merging with the land during the Dawn Cataclysm. It was an entirely epic continent, completely cut off from the standard adventuring world, only the gods knew about it. They found the shattered temples of Autumnor (sp) where Ao punished his insolence. Found an ancient Netherise City that was entirely undead, when the Fall of Netheril happened this city tried to also go into the Plane of Shadow but the magic went awry and they went into the Negative Energy Plane and being spit out several years later into the forgotten continent trapped by the anti magic wall. So you had an entire floating city of ancient netherese liches and ghosts infused with Negative energy making htem far more formidable than your standard undead. We had an underground nation of Advanced/Epic Naga's, trapped ancient devils and demons of ancient wars. The southern tip of the continent was ruled by an enormous Xixecal and his white dragon legions. Not to mention scores and scores of advanced monsters with added magical abilities and powers. It was a fun campaign, players went form level 1 to level 45 over a long long campaign. They would also hit the outer planes imbetween prime material adventures, I used the great tree cosmology that 3.0 had, was pretty fun. No god slaying went on due to the gods being insanely powerful but there was a few times when an avatar was given its run for the money. Orcus is a great enemy I suggets using him whenever you can. Dicefreaks version rocks for this btw. Anyway i'm rambling while at work
Mystery Man 05-21-04, 04:39 PM	Cool, thanks. Great examples!
ericlboyd 05-21-04, 05:41 PM	I haven't done this, but I'm thinking a "semi-epic" campaign would be neat. 1) Run a normal campaign. 2) Come up with an uber-villain (e.g. epic level) who "changes the world" in some subtle but important way through the casting of a unique epic spell. 3) Have the PCs slowly rise in level battling uber-villain's minions as they gradually figure out what's going on. 4) In the final days of the campaign, as the PCs confront the uber-villain, they should just be starting into epic levels themselves. 5) The world as we know it ends. Or doesn't. --Eric
Aurotuli 05-21-04, 07:43 PM	Would this be a bad time to point out that the ELH and DDG have been part of the viewable / downloadable SRD for a week or two now? If its any consolation, the online docs should be 3.5 (while the book is still 3E), so if you are playing 3E then the book is the better choice of the two to have. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
J. Grenemyer 05-21-04, 08:50 PM	Hello Mystery Man Originally posted by Mystery Man Has anyone run the epic level adventure in Dungeon, I forget what its called but it has to do with an angry storm giant? Considering this ongoing "thing" I have with giants IMC this would make a great addition to pull from should I ever get my players up into the epic levels. I think the adventure you are talking about is (IIRC) “Into the Storm Lord’s Keep.” I’m planning on using this Epic adventure after the PCs complete the CotSQ/Bastion of Broken Souls/Demons and Devils/Rise of Aumanator story arc I’m running them through now (which ought to put the players at about level 20-21 if they survive). I plan to use the Warhulk and other war-like PrCs to modify the giants in that adventure, as well as Monte Cook’s Complete Book of Eldritch Might to magically tweak the adventure setting a bit. As for my campaign as a whole, I don’t plan to change Faerûn at all once the PCs go Epic, as the setting is quite suitable for Epic Play as is. For a change of pace, I recommend the Underdark sourcebook for Epic Adventure ideas as it lists several immensely powerful city states/organizations (besides the Immaskari) whose goals and agendas are ripe with the potential for Epic conflict. :D
Taelohn 05-21-04, 09:27 PM	Actually, i'm kinda surprised he's not a netheril arcanist (oh yeah, 3rd edition it was, 3.5 it is). ARE there any Netheril Arcanists, alive, that is? (or undead). Shadow should be, as should Larloch. Since their stats came out before the PGtF, they need some updates.
Mystery Man 05-24-04, 08:39 AM	One thing that kind of bothers me, in the ELH (if you go by CR's) you have an extremely powerful demon called the "infernal" which is a CR 30! Compared to the demon lords in the BoVD he could pretty much handle toe to toe any one of them all the way down to Asmodeus himself. Seems a balance here has not been maintained, unless I'm completely missing something. So anyhow, what hitdice would you add to these now puny demon lords to even things out?
MrkGrismer 05-24-04, 11:46 AM	Or perhaps Asmodeous and the rest are mere pawns of The Infernal, who is unkowingly the pawn of... Well, we won't say who right now...
Mystery Man 05-24-04, 11:50 AM	Well, we won't say who right now... It's the rabbit of Caer Bannog!!! http://mysteryman.typepad.com//the_rabbit_of_caerbannog.jpg Which of course everyone know is the.. Dreaded Black Beast of Arrgh! http://mysteryman.typepad.com//the_black_beast_of_arrgh.jpg
ClobberinTime 05-24-04, 11:53 AM	Demons and Devils Rise of Aumantor Where are these available??? I'v never heard of them before.
Mystery Man 05-24-04, 11:55 AM	The infernal is in the ELH. He can cast a Hell Ball once per day and can summon 4 balors or pitfiends depending on his orientation (no fail) to aid him.
J. Grenemyer 05-24-04, 01:16 PM	Hello, Originally posted by ClobberinTime Demons and Devils Rise of Aumantor Where are these available??? I'v never heard of them before. The fate (and ultimate nature) of Aumanator is hinted at in Races of Faerûn (thanks Eric Boyd!). You can learn more about Aumanator (originally a Nethrese deity) by downloading (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/downloads) a free copy of Arcane Age: Netheril--Empire of Magic from WotC's download page. Demons and Devils is one of the early 3rd Edition products released by Sword and Sorcery Studios that features three adventures related to (as you probably guessed ;) ) Demons and Devils. These adventures are deadly, duplicitious and difficult, which fits their billing as "3rd Edition Rules, 1st Edition Feel." Something I forgot to mention (which I'm also using in my campaign) is the Incursion scenario presented awhile back in both Dragon and Dungeon Magazine, which basically revolves around the Githyanki race invading the Prime in order to take over all of whichever campaign world you're running. The map that comes in Dungeon shows the Githyanki home city as residing in the Astral Plane on the body of a dead deity with 6 arms. And since Aumanator is hinted at as being "1 of 3"... :D
J. Grenemyer 05-24-04, 01:23 PM	Sorry to double post: Originally posted by Mystery Man One thing that kind of bothers me, in the ELH (if you go by CR's) you have an extremely powerful demon called the "infernal" which is a CR 30! Compared to the demon lords in the BoVD he could pretty much handle toe to toe any one of them all the way down to Asmodeus himself. Seems a balance here has not been maintained, unless I'm completely missing something. One thing you have to remember is that the BoVD (like Deities and Demigods/Faiths and Pantheons) was not written with the assumption that 30th level Epic Characters would be facing off against the Demon Lords and Gods. All the same, you hit on the right idea by adding hit dice. Speaking of which, I'd only add hit dice as appropriate to make the Demon Lords a challenge for your players. If they're never going to face a Demon Lord, why spend time upgrading? :D
Barmoz 05-25-04, 11:17 PM	I was faced with this particular issue. I am in the middle of a very interesting and very epic campaign involving an invasion of the forgotten realms by the sorcerer kings of dark sun. The PC's are running around trying to organize the defense of the realms from a political perspective, and trying to also deal with recon of the invading forces. The invasion itself is going to be EXTREMELY epic. The SK's all range in level from 53 to 75 (according to some very well written profiles on these boards) in addition to commading armies of their own. So far, it's a very challenging and entertaining campaign.
Mystery Man 05-26-04, 01:16 PM	Okay what does "SK" mean and where are these profiles? The SK's all range in level from 53 to 75 (according to some very well written profiles on these boards) in addition to commading armies of their own. So far, it's a very challenging and entertaining campaign.
Barmoz 05-26-04, 01:31 PM	Check the Dark Sun boards under the "other roleplaying worlds" section. SK stands for Sorcerer King. Each is basically a god-king of a city-state, all of them are epic level magic users / psionic wielders, in addition to having undergone differening stages of an advancement process putting them at near divine levels of power, but still keeping them technically mortal, which makes for more roleplaying fun than putting PC's in contention versus gods. Look for posts by Xlorepdarkhelm for his overviews of the builds for the individual sorcerer kings, he's done a really impressive job of building upon the 2e setting to convert things. As a word of caution though, Dark sun is a pretty complex setting to get your hands around.
Monsoon28 05-27-04, 07:46 AM	Have you thought about a campaign against the Cult of the Dragon? Green Giant has a excellent write-up for Sammaster here: Sammaster (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=142994&perpage=30&pagenumber=2) 36 caster levels, CR 38! On top of this you'd be able to create EL Dracoliches and a number of EL henchmen, since Sammaster is known to teach his craft to his minions. My 2 cp.
Lord Mortanius 05-28-04, 01:51 AM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Last I heard, he was long gone. Last I heard, he possessed a 5 year old elf.
Chronomage 05-28-04, 03:22 AM	Where did you hear that? Really, where?
Lancelot3679 05-29-04, 12:59 PM	One thing that I have considered in my Epic Faerun (which I can't speak much to because it's still building, the characters have yet to reach the bad stuff) is where all the epic NPCs are. I mean, if you are going to have anything that involves a serious invasion or Faerun or major war that could mean serious distruction of the realms or the fates of deities, then why wouldn't El, the 7 sisters, any of the great and powerful good NPCs step in to help or even do it themselves.
MrkGrismer 05-29-04, 01:34 PM	They've been destracted by... well 'something' else... You really don't want to know what. Trust me. :D