Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MarinMegara 12-21-05, 02:41 AM	Hello People. I'm the DM of our campaign set in the forgotten realms. Our campaign started way back in the ancient days of first and 2nd ed of D&D. We had loads of fun in the realms. Me and my players always find the challenging nemesis in the realms ...well, challenging. That is, until they reached epic levels. I dont know but there seems to be a dearth of information on how to run an epic level campaign in the realms. The levels of my players are in the range of 23-26 levels and needless to say most of the villains in the lords of darkness are well below epic levels. Even a great wyrm is not much of a challenge to my players, though they have to sweat somehow in order to defeat it...which leads me to a conclusion that somehow, the only creatures that may challenge my players (and make me not look like a sissy to them), is to up the power levels of the villains or bring the characters to the outer planes. More and more it seems, the character's levels, insists that they do not belong in the low powered forgotten realms... This is just an observation. Any comments, violent or otherwise are welcome. :D
Myssa Rei 12-21-05, 08:56 AM	Well, if your players got to those levels through pure hack-and-slash than roleplaying, plunging into one dungeon after another instead of doing some actual politicking, then you have probably two choices: bring them to the planes, or find a way to manipulate the players into taking on some of the greater villains or personalities in the Realms. And let me tell you, there are a LOT of them. Technically speaking, the ones you've seen in the Epic-level Handbook are just a mere percentage of the powerful individuals you might encounter in the Realms. Before you say the Realms isn't challenging, think about this for a moment: have your players been ensnared in the machinations of Larloch (who, depending on who you ask, is either a 34th-level caster or a 46th level world-buster)? Or have you dared and visit the Oracle of Erythaal (Ioualum himself, a level wizard 36/archmage 5 elder brain lich!) in his haunted lair for even a bit of his ancient wisdom? How about taking on the Twisted Rune (a group of undead spellcasters detailed in the Lords of Darkness that would make even the Chosen pale in power), and exposing their manipulations of Calimshan's politics? Or go on a quest to stop the Serpent Queens latest plans after her defeat by Elminster, Mordenkainen, and Dalamar? Really, the Realms still can challenge an Epic-level party, You just have to know where to look.
Faraer 12-21-05, 09:16 AM	I dont know but there seems to be a dearth of information on how to run an epic level campaign in the realms.The subject of what the mighty of Faerūn do has been addressed in the novels but not set out in sourcebooks: that's the gap that Power of Faerūn is set to cover. The crucial point is that they conduct their affairs through intrigue and manipulation, rarely open battle; those who expect to survive by their personal prowess swiftly fall to foes able to plan, prepare, and marshal resources and allies. As Myssa says, the high-level NPCs in print are just a sampling, examples to inspire you in creating more for the needs of your campaign. 'Up the power levels of the villains' is a good option: indeed, the given levels are not set in stone but, as the Old Grey Box states plainly, there as a guide to be raised or lowered for the DM's needs. High-level adventurers do indeed also spend more and more time in other planes and other worlds. In terms of pitched battles -- which should be a small part of high-level campaigning -- it's also essential to run enemies like elder dragons as the long-sighted geniuses they are: their stat block should be a small part of such a creature's capability and threat.
Vaprak001 12-21-05, 10:00 AM	Originally Posted by MarinMegara I dont know but there seems to be a dearth of information on how to run an epic level campaign in the realms. Amen! Actually this problem isn't just limited to the realms; short of the ELH I haven't seen one epic product. Why have there not been products like the Bloodstone series developed for 3e/3.5? I thought these were excellent and I know my players liked them. They also fitted in well with the realms as a whole, ie. not having an immense continental impact that was likely to upset everyones campaign. One of the most disappointing products for me was Hellgate Keep. I had started to develop a campaign for my 20th+ level players based in the Delimbyr vale that pitted them against the mighty Balor Grintharke, his trio of Marilith cohorts and his army of cambions, tanar'ri, and pteredon/manticore crossbreeds. Imagine my horror to find that a party of poxy elves had beaten me to it, managing to destroy Grintharke, his Vrock leiutenant and a large proportion of the true Demons. Then to top it all the 3 Mariliths destroyed each other and Shan Nikkoleth, the Death Knight general faded into obscurity. What a missed opportunity for a truly epic campaign setting! :weep:
Crust 12-21-05, 07:49 PM	I think a good way to learn about an Epic FR campaign is to (uh oh)... Read FR novels. The Elminster series is great for this, as is Silverfall. Epic level PCs should be scouring the lower planes, taking on wizards in their own towers, and basically crushing evil with little fear of their own deaths (especially if the party is dominated by spellcasters). My current FR campaign is set primarily in the western Dales. The PCs are between 26th and 28th level. Their early 20s were spent battling Acererak and his minions. I buffed up the Return to the Tomb of Horrors encounters to suit the needs of the group. I also had a team of 16th level githyanki assassins hunting them, attacking them using hit-and-run tactics. Their mid-20s were spent assaulting Tunarath, the githyanki capital city on the Astral Plane (the culmination of a year-and-a-half-long Githyanki Incursion campaign), ending with the Palace of Whispers and the final confrontation with Vlaakith herself (female githyanki lich wizard 25). They are currently plane hopping, chasing a foe that has eluded them for years: a male half-human half-fiend evolved vampire sorcerer 19/blood magus 10/master vampire 3. The chase has led the PCs through the bowels of Grimstead Castle's dungeons, into the Barrens of Doom and Despair, and through the Astral Plane. They've been slaughtering yugoloths and devils recently. Think epic: Throw hordes of monsters at the PCs (involve them in a war against orcs, githyanki, drow, devils, whatever). Let them mow down monsters on a grand scale. Have 20 orcs attempt to grapple the fighter JUST to subdue him in a mad rush, only to have the fighter (who should have monstrous strength, insane buffs, and perhaps be enlarged) roll an insane grapple check and hurl them all away like Arnold in Commando. That same fighter should be using great cleave and his four full attacks to mow down basically anything before him/her. Creatures should flee from him often. Also, the fighter should definitely have some degree of fame. Throw challengers at him. Give him a foe that dogs him, a constant rival, or perhaps several rivals that appear and die at certain intervals. Let the wizard ash a dozen demons with one empowered/admixed chain sonic. Give him the opportunity to develop interesting spell combos using time stop, contingency, or the Simbul's spell trigger. I allow my wizard to cast time stop and summon delayed blast fireballs in as many free rounds as he can. With mastery of elements, he can switch up the elements of each fireball, which is very versatile. He obliterates enemies with that spell combo, much like the Simbul obliterates her foes in Silverfall or Elminster in Hell. The cleric should have at least one permanent emanation feat. Repulsion or anti-life shield are excellent choices. The PC cleric in my group has both emanations at 28th level, and with divine shield and holy star, he is fairly untouchable. Powerful undead and creatures with huge spell resistances may breach his emanations, but let's remember he's a 28th level PC with a +6 intelligent holy avenger longsword and an AC in the upper 50s. The cleric should also be using greater planar binding and gate to have a relatively constant divine companion. At such levels, these spells can summon powerful allies. The rogue should never be seen unless he/she wants to be seen. Give him the opportunty to stealth kill the boss monster before the burly fighter closes for melee. Make him the omnipotent eyes and ears of the group. Allow information to fall into his lap (as it should considering gathering information ranks at that level). Give him a name on the streets. Send an assassin after him. Heck, send various assassins after the PCs. They should have many, many enemies by the time they hit epic levels. I've had three different groups of assassins hunt the PCs at various stages (a team of 8 githyanki bounty hunters of various levels, a trio of astral stalker ranger/assassins, and a quartet of glooms). You need to familiarize yourself with the Epic Level Handbook and the monster advancement rules at the back of the Monster Manual. Always add HD to your monsters. I rarely use base monsters as they stand in the books. I always add levels or HD. It's a must. I could go on and on... There's no shortage of material out there. Look at some back issues of Dungeon magazine. Dungeon #123 has a module set for PCs at level 30! The resources are out there if you look.
GothicDan 12-21-05, 08:58 PM	Ick @ overly large amount of combat. As has been pointed out, on Faerun, once you get into rubbing elbows with the Epic big-wigs, you better not be tossing delayed blast fireballs and meteor swarms around, or the even bigger-wigs will come in and put a stop to it. Think of such Epic level campaigns in Faerun as more analogous to the Cold War.
Lord Karsus 12-22-05, 12:46 AM	Think of such Epic level campaigns in Faerun as more analogous to the Cold War. -That is a great analogy... Wizard 1: I can cast Burning Hands... Wizard 2: Yeah, well I can cast Flaming Sphere... Wizard 1: Yeah, well I can cast Fireball! Wizard 2: Well, guess what! I can cast Wall of Fire!! Wizard 1: Big deal...I can cast Delayed Blast Fireball! Wizard 2: So? I can cast Incendiary Cloud! Wizard 1: Thats it! Meteor Swarm for you! Wizard 2: Fear my Epic Fire Destuction of the Damned Hellspawn! Wizard 1: You will not survive my Epic Eldrich Flames of Kossuth! Meanwhile, a 1st level Rogue sneaks into their camp, and makes away with their precious magic items...
GothicDan 12-22-05, 10:00 AM	I like the name of that last Epic spell. :D
ClobberinTime 12-22-05, 10:43 AM	Oh there is a ton of Epic Level stuff to do in the FR, thats one of the great things about it. 1) Just look over the leaders of Shade Enclave, you have Telamont who is lik 35th level and then a bunch of Lackys around 28th level. Plus these guys would be used to working together and already have many many epic spells researched and at their disposal, If as a DM you stat them out right, they should be more than a Match for your PCs. 2) Larloch has a dungeon filled with hundreds of 18th to 22nd level wizard Lich servitors, and is at least 30th level himself. Should be easy to come up with a reason why your PCs need to assault Warlocks Crypt. Maybe some of his experiments have gone Awry and are collapsing the Plane of Shadow and the Prime together, the PCs get wind of this and need to stop him. 3, For lower level characters just look at Aumvor the undying, trapsing into his tunnels should be pretty dangerous. 4, What about the Great Wyrm Black Dragon, 25th level Wizard Daurgoth, is like Cr-37 and should be a real handfull if you give him access to Epic Magic as well. 5, The grand daddy of them all Ioulam, elder brain, 40th level or so wizard and an alhoon to boot. Invading his city in the underdark would be great fun and more than a match for a bunch of 25th level characters.
Mr.Moonrat 12-22-05, 11:15 AM	Let the players attack a beholder city in Underdark. That should be tough. And do not forget to let the villains to cooperate. Evil people can have companions too! And in an epic setting they should often have, to give the players a better challenge. In my own epic lvl campaign a couple of years ago, I let my players confront the four Chosen of "Deities of Fury". But first after a while. In the beginning they blamed problems in the Moonsea area on Mulmaster, cleverly laid out smokescreens by the chosens. TFor example, the chosen of Auril had seven white dragons as companions. And that was only the start for my players... All those hard obstacles almost made my players thinking of abandon the quest, that was never my intention of course. And this is a fact even though one of my players was a Chosen of Leira (awakened by the player, and the Chosen-status was Leira's reward for this).