Epic Faerun Campain, Return of Shade - opinions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Faerun Campain, Return of Shade - opinions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lancelot3679
05-29-04, 01:01 PM The plan that I have running, since it involves the return of the City of Shade, is to have them reach this slow build up so no one sees it coming.

First element, PCs are involved in some normal campaigning to build up. I drop some hints, things like meeting a shade spy helping the Zhents, running into a powerful mage that needs them to acquire some ancient artifacts, meeting up with an elf captive that needs to be returned to the elves.

Second, start moving through the Faerun timeline. The base for the epic setting starts in 1366, that gives them time to get to know the major players and get involved themselves before having to worry about things like the shades and such. By 1368-69 the War in Tethyr has been finished, next they will be helpful in a defending from the Goblin Invasion of Cormyr (something that I am having a lot of fun torturing the PCs with mind you. Goblins of low levels that can still hit where it hurts, and seem to come out of no where with a trained and equiped army). By 1370 that finishes with the death of the king, and they move to another hapless point that gives them friends in the Dwarves of the Sunset Mountains, and the Elves of Evermeet (sp?).

1371 - Hell again. Not much for originality, but I liked the Githyanki Invasion setting, so I made some changes and snatched that out of Dragon. In this setting they target Cormyr, still weak and rebuilding, and the Western Heartlands where they can get a solid hold. The story ties in that the Shades are advising the Gith on the attacks, where to enter on the Prime and what to take. Plan - it gives them an ally to the West of Anaurach that they don't have to worry about. If the plan fails, they have weakened their enemies. Since the PCs still don't have the Shades return, their is little to worry about.

Next point, issues in the timeline from 1372 - Now, it gets fun. Shades have allies with the Drow and Illithad, captured Halaster in Undermountain and allow them to build up. With the earlier link to the elves, the PCs will get called to the Elven Islands to help them fight off the Drow and Illithad. Win or lose, Shade is in a good place because their hands are clean and the hope is that they can kill off some of their enemies, powerful elven mages that could be a threat to them.

City of Shade - With Shade returning comes the worry that they are up to something. Tilverton disapears (earlier attacks on Cormyr, the loss of Vanderghast, etc.) set the time for them to try epic magic using the Shadow Weave (Meaning Mystra can't stop it). Since Tilverton disappeared, without cause, and the PCs have links to Cormyr, they are asked to check it out. They find that Tilverton was pulled into the Plane of Shadows and that the pockets that make others disappear just cause them to be drawn in too. Through the course of events they find that the Shades are behind it and the population gets slaughtered.

Finally the invasion and said Epic Magic. The purpose is to show that the Shades have been gathering troops on the Plane of Shadow to use in a war to reclaim that which once belonged to their empire. Through some serious casting in their city, they will cast a spell that covers a city in an essence on the Plane of Shadow and infuse it with the Shadow Weave. In these zones (Mix wish/anti-magic zone/darkness/more) only magic that works off of the Shadow Weave will work. This means the PCs magic will be useless. At the same time, the Drow, Illithad, and other underdark allies including Shades’s own warriors and casters can function normally. I figure that they could do this casting over a minimum of three major cities, maybe 5, and in one fell swoop take a large area as their own blitzkrieg style. After a month or so of the PCs and others in the realms realing from the invasion, even more land will fall and they can begin to consolidate with the goddess Shar helping as she can secure her own private little realm.

From there, it’s anybodies guess, just have to see where the PCs take it. Just wondering if there was any imput from others. Sources of information for the story line, other angles, anything. I want it to be massive when I get it going.
The Simbul
05-29-04, 10:42 PM Originally posted by Lancelot3679
Through some serious casting in their city, they will cast a spell that covers a city in an essence on the Plane of Shadow and infuse it with the Shadow Weave. In these zones (Mix wish/anti-magic zone/darkness/more) only magic that works off of the Shadow Weave will work. This means the PCs magic will be useless. At the same time, the Drow, Illithad, and other underdark allies including Shades’s own warriors and casters can function normally. I figure that they could do this casting over a minimum of three major cities, maybe 5, and in one fell swoop take a large area as their own blitzkrieg style. After a month or so of the PCs and others in the realms realing from the invasion, even more land will fall and they can begin to consolidate with the goddess Shar helping as she can secure her own private little realm.
It would be possible through Epic Magic, to create a large area of effect Ward spell that would block all magic of X level and lower, while simulatenously allow certain beings to cast spells normally. However, all Ward Spells are subject to dispelling and Destruction (i.e. Dispel magic, and epic spells using the Dispel or Destroy seed) provided that the caster succeeds and opposed Caster level check.

However as far as creating an area where the Weave will not function at all, I think is stepping the line a bit, since if any group of spellcasting mortals can create a massive dead magic zone, than any Deity of Magic (i.e. Mystra) should be likewise able to repair it with the blink of an eye. Its also worth noting that Mystra will sense any spellcasting 180 days before the said spell is cast, as per her portfolio sense ability, which isnt limited by which Weave they are cast through or if they are cast through a Weave at all.

P.S. Epic Spellcasting can be used through any Weave, the only difference is which weave you are casting spells through and which deity has the ability to deny your access to the Weave.
Cunning Linguist
05-30-04, 09:05 AM Through some serious casting in their city, they will cast a spell that covers a city in an essence on the Plane of Shadow and infuse it with the Shadow Weave. In these zones (Mix wish/anti-magic zone/darkness/more) only magic that works off of the Shadow Weave will work.

I can't remember where, but I think there allready is a city that is built in a Dead Magic zone. Remember something about people who wanted to "get away" lived there, and that is recent years, this had become a heaven for Shadow Magic users.
ender
05-31-04, 05:11 PM Originally posted by Lancelot3679
In these zones (Mix wish/anti-magic zone/darkness/more) only magic that works off of the Shadow Weave will work. This means the PCs magic will be useless.

I very much like the whole idea behind the campaign--in fact its very similar to what I have been gearing up to in my own campaign.

One thing leaps out at me: denying very powerful characters the use of magic for major, or even a series of, adventures doesn't seem like a good idea. Now, mind you, I'm relatively new to very high level adventuring, but one of the lessons that I have learned is that PCs live or die according to their preparations and planning, which basically boils down to what spells they have up their sleeves. Asking a wizard to fight in a(n effectively) magic-dead city is a sure-fire recipe for a very frustrated, and soon to be very dead, Weave user.

From an internal consistency point of view, I think that that's exactly the sort of thing that the Shadovar would do as a prelude to invasion--it works perfectly to their advantage. Simply from a game-design, DM point of view, it may not be the best idea to deny the PCs their most versatile source of power for long periods of time.
The Simbul
06-01-04, 06:34 AM The only problem I have with spellcasters being able to directly supress one Weave or the other, is the fact that Weave spellcasters exponentially outnumber Shadow Weave spellcasters, and if it were possible to to accomplish such a feat, without any recourse for the spellcasters whose Weave is to be supressed, then there is virtually nothing to stop the majority of powerful Mystra-devoted spellcasters of Toril from simply converging on the City of Shade, or any similar outpost, and using powerful-magic to render the entire area a Dead Shadow Weave magic zone, and simply be rid of them once and for all....
Mumm-Ra
06-01-04, 11:22 AM double post
Mumm-Ra
06-01-04, 11:24 AM That is absolutely correct. If it were possible to suppress weave magic, then it would be possible to suppress shadow weave magic, and as simbul said, weave users are far more numerous than shadow weave users. You can, however, create dead weave areas, which effectively suppresses weave magic. Why not do the same to shadow weave magic in the case of weave users?

There is an alternate theory:

It has been described in various sourcebooks (MoF i think) that the shadow weave is the emptiness between the strands of the weave:like the empty air between the strands of a spider web.

It is also stated that there aren't any shadow weave disruptions because shadow weave magic is not common, and they will become more common as the use of the shadow weave becomes more widespread.

However, what if the comparison between the shadow weave and the weave (the strands of the web and the gaps between them) is more than metaphorical?

If it was a physical, or metaphysical distinction between the two, then you can see that it will never be possible to disrupt the shadow weave!

You destroy the strands of the web, and you are left with the 'emptiness' between the gaps-the shadow weave.

You can implement this theory in your campaign, Lancelot, to explain why you can have dead weave areas and cannot have dead shadow weave areas, and it provides an explanation to why weave users cannot do, what simbul suggested, to shade.

warning: this theory, if true, would shift the balance. Shadow weave magic would be more powerful than it already is.
Lancelot3679
06-01-04, 03:54 PM Thank you Mumm-Ra, that is a very intriguing idea. I suppose that it would add to the concept of breaking the Weave that Mystra has in place for the alternate weave. That every section that is taken down allows the Shadow Weave that much more room to breath. I suppose the only thing that I would worry about in such a debate on the metaphysics of the weaves is that it could be said that in the absence of any weave Mystra has created, that the Shadow Weave is non-existent. That the two would cancel themselves out entirely at that point. Something like the question as to whether light destroys darkness or darkness is just everywhere that light is not. That only depends though on which you can attribute the higher source of power or place.

At the same time, I understand that there is an issue with denying the casters of the party the use of their magic. Part of the quest is supposed to be the surprise of entering an area where magic has been shut down. At the same time, there are other magics that will me lost, not just the caster’s ability to cast spells. Magical items will not work; weapons and armor would lose their enhancements, leaving the party vulnerable and weakened. I can only say that the party will have access to other options. Acquiring magical items that the enemy uses and possibly other sources for their magics and such. This is suppose to be part of the quest though, the need to find a way to bring back the magic that is being pushed out. At the same time, good isn’t allowed to have a counter-plan ready to oppose the enemies’ plans. What would be the fun in that?

Now, as to the Simbul’s very obvious uneasiness with the fact that I am so readily taking away the powers of her goddess, I would only ask, how will all of these casters counter such a massive spell? Granted, there are a number of great casters, but have any of them prepared a spell of enough magnitude to take down this Shadow Weave Zone that has been created? More importantly, will they all know of or see that there is a threat, or know where it is coming from? I would grant you that there are good reasons to know or assume that the Seven and Eliminster would have some idea to suspect the Shades, the only real way to find out what is going on or to possibly link it to the Shades will require some investigation. More so than that, it would take a great meeting of those casters, not all of which would be willing or able to work with one another. I really think that too much faith is being given to those who are unprepared and unintested.

At the same time, in many of the areas where the attacks are planned, there are few casters of significant power who will be able to do anything about the invasion. Though a wide area is planned for the conquering, I would assume that there are going to be those who think, “This is not my problem, why should I get involved?” Mages are usually secretive and have a lone wolf mentality, not likely to share secrets and power that they have spent great time and effort achieving. If there were a nation of mages that could unite in the fighting of this power, there might be a challenge, but some how I doubt that Thay will be very involved on this front, or care that their enemies are knocked down a notch.

In the end, I fail to see where this united effort on the part of the magical community will come from. More than that, what spells or powers will be used to do this great battle against them? Please, share anything that you think would counter this. Spells, groups of mages, people in the know that could warn the world. In the end I would say that I expect this campaign to function much like Germany of 1938. It will be quick, efficient, and I can see no power present that will stand against them… until the heroes step up to the plate. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lancelot3679 05-29-04, 01:01 PM	The plan that I have running, since it involves the return of the City of Shade, is to have them reach this slow build up so no one sees it coming. First element, PCs are involved in some normal campaigning to build up. I drop some hints, things like meeting a shade spy helping the Zhents, running into a powerful mage that needs them to acquire some ancient artifacts, meeting up with an elf captive that needs to be returned to the elves. Second, start moving through the Faerun timeline. The base for the epic setting starts in 1366, that gives them time to get to know the major players and get involved themselves before having to worry about things like the shades and such. By 1368-69 the War in Tethyr has been finished, next they will be helpful in a defending from the Goblin Invasion of Cormyr (something that I am having a lot of fun torturing the PCs with mind you. Goblins of low levels that can still hit where it hurts, and seem to come out of no where with a trained and equiped army). By 1370 that finishes with the death of the king, and they move to another hapless point that gives them friends in the Dwarves of the Sunset Mountains, and the Elves of Evermeet (sp?). 1371 - Hell again. Not much for originality, but I liked the Githyanki Invasion setting, so I made some changes and snatched that out of Dragon. In this setting they target Cormyr, still weak and rebuilding, and the Western Heartlands where they can get a solid hold. The story ties in that the Shades are advising the Gith on the attacks, where to enter on the Prime and what to take. Plan - it gives them an ally to the West of Anaurach that they don't have to worry about. If the plan fails, they have weakened their enemies. Since the PCs still don't have the Shades return, their is little to worry about. Next point, issues in the timeline from 1372 - Now, it gets fun. Shades have allies with the Drow and Illithad, captured Halaster in Undermountain and allow them to build up. With the earlier link to the elves, the PCs will get called to the Elven Islands to help them fight off the Drow and Illithad. Win or lose, Shade is in a good place because their hands are clean and the hope is that they can kill off some of their enemies, powerful elven mages that could be a threat to them. City of Shade - With Shade returning comes the worry that they are up to something. Tilverton disapears (earlier attacks on Cormyr, the loss of Vanderghast, etc.) set the time for them to try epic magic using the Shadow Weave (Meaning Mystra can't stop it). Since Tilverton disappeared, without cause, and the PCs have links to Cormyr, they are asked to check it out. They find that Tilverton was pulled into the Plane of Shadows and that the pockets that make others disappear just cause them to be drawn in too. Through the course of events they find that the Shades are behind it and the population gets slaughtered. Finally the invasion and said Epic Magic. The purpose is to show that the Shades have been gathering troops on the Plane of Shadow to use in a war to reclaim that which once belonged to their empire. Through some serious casting in their city, they will cast a spell that covers a city in an essence on the Plane of Shadow and infuse it with the Shadow Weave. In these zones (Mix wish/anti-magic zone/darkness/more) only magic that works off of the Shadow Weave will work. This means the PCs magic will be useless. At the same time, the Drow, Illithad, and other underdark allies including Shades’s own warriors and casters can function normally. I figure that they could do this casting over a minimum of three major cities, maybe 5, and in one fell swoop take a large area as their own blitzkrieg style. After a month or so of the PCs and others in the realms realing from the invasion, even more land will fall and they can begin to consolidate with the goddess Shar helping as she can secure her own private little realm. From there, it’s anybodies guess, just have to see where the PCs take it. Just wondering if there was any imput from others. Sources of information for the story line, other angles, anything. I want it to be massive when I get it going.
The Simbul 05-29-04, 10:42 PM	Originally posted by Lancelot3679 Through some serious casting in their city, they will cast a spell that covers a city in an essence on the Plane of Shadow and infuse it with the Shadow Weave. In these zones (Mix wish/anti-magic zone/darkness/more) only magic that works off of the Shadow Weave will work. This means the PCs magic will be useless. At the same time, the Drow, Illithad, and other underdark allies including Shades’s own warriors and casters can function normally. I figure that they could do this casting over a minimum of three major cities, maybe 5, and in one fell swoop take a large area as their own blitzkrieg style. After a month or so of the PCs and others in the realms realing from the invasion, even more land will fall and they can begin to consolidate with the goddess Shar helping as she can secure her own private little realm. It would be possible through Epic Magic, to create a large area of effect Ward spell that would block all magic of X level and lower, while simulatenously allow certain beings to cast spells normally. However, all Ward Spells are subject to dispelling and Destruction (i.e. Dispel magic, and epic spells using the Dispel or Destroy seed) provided that the caster succeeds and opposed Caster level check. However as far as creating an area where the Weave will not function at all, I think is stepping the line a bit, since if any group of spellcasting mortals can create a massive dead magic zone, than any Deity of Magic (i.e. Mystra) should be likewise able to repair it with the blink of an eye. Its also worth noting that Mystra will sense any spellcasting 180 days before the said spell is cast, as per her portfolio sense ability, which isnt limited by which Weave they are cast through or if they are cast through a Weave at all. P.S. Epic Spellcasting can be used through any Weave, the only difference is which weave you are casting spells through and which deity has the ability to deny your access to the Weave.
Cunning Linguist 05-30-04, 09:05 AM	Through some serious casting in their city, they will cast a spell that covers a city in an essence on the Plane of Shadow and infuse it with the Shadow Weave. In these zones (Mix wish/anti-magic zone/darkness/more) only magic that works off of the Shadow Weave will work. I can't remember where, but I think there allready is a city that is built in a Dead Magic zone. Remember something about people who wanted to "get away" lived there, and that is recent years, this had become a heaven for Shadow Magic users.
ender 05-31-04, 05:11 PM	Originally posted by Lancelot3679 In these zones (Mix wish/anti-magic zone/darkness/more) only magic that works off of the Shadow Weave will work. This means the PCs magic will be useless. I very much like the whole idea behind the campaign--in fact its very similar to what I have been gearing up to in my own campaign. One thing leaps out at me: denying very powerful characters the use of magic for major, or even a series of, adventures doesn't seem like a good idea. Now, mind you, I'm relatively new to very high level adventuring, but one of the lessons that I have learned is that PCs live or die according to their preparations and planning, which basically boils down to what spells they have up their sleeves. Asking a wizard to fight in a(n effectively) magic-dead city is a sure-fire recipe for a very frustrated, and soon to be very dead, Weave user. From an internal consistency point of view, I think that that's exactly the sort of thing that the Shadovar would do as a prelude to invasion--it works perfectly to their advantage. Simply from a game-design, DM point of view, it may not be the best idea to deny the PCs their most versatile source of power for long periods of time.
The Simbul 06-01-04, 06:34 AM	The only problem I have with spellcasters being able to directly supress one Weave or the other, is the fact that Weave spellcasters exponentially outnumber Shadow Weave spellcasters, and if it were possible to to accomplish such a feat, without any recourse for the spellcasters whose Weave is to be supressed, then there is virtually nothing to stop the majority of powerful Mystra-devoted spellcasters of Toril from simply converging on the City of Shade, or any similar outpost, and using powerful-magic to render the entire area a Dead Shadow Weave magic zone, and simply be rid of them once and for all....
Mumm-Ra 06-01-04, 11:22 AM	double post
Mumm-Ra 06-01-04, 11:24 AM	That is absolutely correct. If it were possible to suppress weave magic, then it would be possible to suppress shadow weave magic, and as simbul said, weave users are far more numerous than shadow weave users. You can, however, create dead weave areas, which effectively suppresses weave magic. Why not do the same to shadow weave magic in the case of weave users? There is an alternate theory: It has been described in various sourcebooks (MoF i think) that the shadow weave is the emptiness between the strands of the weave:like the empty air between the strands of a spider web. It is also stated that there aren't any shadow weave disruptions because shadow weave magic is not common, and they will become more common as the use of the shadow weave becomes more widespread. However, what if the comparison between the shadow weave and the weave (the strands of the web and the gaps between them) is more than metaphorical? If it was a physical, or metaphysical distinction between the two, then you can see that it will never be possible to disrupt the shadow weave! You destroy the strands of the web, and you are left with the 'emptiness' between the gaps-the shadow weave. You can implement this theory in your campaign, Lancelot, to explain why you can have dead weave areas and cannot have dead shadow weave areas, and it provides an explanation to why weave users cannot do, what simbul suggested, to shade. warning: this theory, if true, would shift the balance. Shadow weave magic would be more powerful than it already is.
Lancelot3679 06-01-04, 03:54 PM	Thank you Mumm-Ra, that is a very intriguing idea. I suppose that it would add to the concept of breaking the Weave that Mystra has in place for the alternate weave. That every section that is taken down allows the Shadow Weave that much more room to breath. I suppose the only thing that I would worry about in such a debate on the metaphysics of the weaves is that it could be said that in the absence of any weave Mystra has created, that the Shadow Weave is non-existent. That the two would cancel themselves out entirely at that point. Something like the question as to whether light destroys darkness or darkness is just everywhere that light is not. That only depends though on which you can attribute the higher source of power or place. At the same time, I understand that there is an issue with denying the casters of the party the use of their magic. Part of the quest is supposed to be the surprise of entering an area where magic has been shut down. At the same time, there are other magics that will me lost, not just the caster’s ability to cast spells. Magical items will not work; weapons and armor would lose their enhancements, leaving the party vulnerable and weakened. I can only say that the party will have access to other options. Acquiring magical items that the enemy uses and possibly other sources for their magics and such. This is suppose to be part of the quest though, the need to find a way to bring back the magic that is being pushed out. At the same time, good isn’t allowed to have a counter-plan ready to oppose the enemies’ plans. What would be the fun in that? Now, as to the Simbul’s very obvious uneasiness with the fact that I am so readily taking away the powers of her goddess, I would only ask, how will all of these casters counter such a massive spell? Granted, there are a number of great casters, but have any of them prepared a spell of enough magnitude to take down this Shadow Weave Zone that has been created? More importantly, will they all know of or see that there is a threat, or know where it is coming from? I would grant you that there are good reasons to know or assume that the Seven and Eliminster would have some idea to suspect the Shades, the only real way to find out what is going on or to possibly link it to the Shades will require some investigation. More so than that, it would take a great meeting of those casters, not all of which would be willing or able to work with one another. I really think that too much faith is being given to those who are unprepared and unintested. At the same time, in many of the areas where the attacks are planned, there are few casters of significant power who will be able to do anything about the invasion. Though a wide area is planned for the conquering, I would assume that there are going to be those who think, “This is not my problem, why should I get involved?” Mages are usually secretive and have a lone wolf mentality, not likely to share secrets and power that they have spent great time and effort achieving. If there were a nation of mages that could unite in the fighting of this power, there might be a challenge, but some how I doubt that Thay will be very involved on this front, or care that their enemies are knocked down a notch. In the end, I fail to see where this united effort on the part of the magical community will come from. More than that, what spells or powers will be used to do this great battle against them? Please, share anything that you think would counter this. Spells, groups of mages, people in the know that could warn the world. In the end I would say that I expect this campaign to function much like Germany of 1938. It will be quick, efficient, and I can see no power present that will stand against them… until the heroes step up to the plate. :D