| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| hawkinsthedm06-21-07, 02:13 PM | I know that they included Epic magic in Lost Empires and the Player's Guide to Faerun, and some Epic feats, prestige class progressions, and prestige classes in the Player's Guide to Faerun, but am I the only one who would like to see an Epic adventure or something similar set in the Realms? |
| XHereticX06-21-07, 02:15 PM | I know that they included Epic magic in Lost Empires and the Player's Guide to Faerun, and some Epic feats, prestige class progressions, and prestige classes in the Player's Guide to Faerun, but am I the only one who would like to see an Epic adventure or something similar set in the Realms? The closest thing you are going to get is Power of Faerun. But I have heard more than once that it is a pile of nonsense. |
| Drew1369r06-21-07, 02:17 PM | Epic is a figment of your imagination ;) Power of Faerun has a couple good epic adventures in it tho check that book out :P |
| Alediran06-21-07, 02:18 PM | There is City of the Spider Queen module wich runs from 10th to 18th level, that is almost epic. |
| Renvale99906-21-07, 03:04 PM | There is City of the Spider Queen module wich runs from 10th to 18th level, that is almost epic. Actually, if your characters are completiest type people, they could very well go epic in that game. I think you can end up like level 24 or 25 if you take down all the Buovyacs(army encampments in Maeyrimda)...not the brightest thing to do but it can be done. |
| Mr_Miscellany06-21-07, 09:49 PM | I know that they included Epic magic in Lost Empires and the Player's Guide to Faerun, and some Epic feats, prestige class progressions, and prestige classes in the Player's Guide to Faerun, but am I the only one who would like to see an Epic adventure or something similar set in the Realms? No, you're not the only one. Not by a long shot. I run an Epic FR game and will happily accept anything Epic for FR that WotC publishes. :D |
| souldnce906-23-07, 02:13 AM | One day I will see epic level, or at least level 10. :weep: Geeze it takes so long. |
| lavekkia06-24-07, 07:28 PM | I know that they included Epic magic in Lost Empires and the Player's Guide to Faerun, and some Epic feats, prestige class progressions, and prestige classes in the Player's Guide to Faerun, but am I the only one who would like to see an Epic adventure or something similar set in the Realms? Tuesday i ll start a new campaign that hopefully will run from lvl 10 to 40. I have not fully detailed everything especially because my players have the wonderful ability to screw up any plan that i devise but the campaign will involve for sure ancient artifacts (especially mythallars), Spelljammer (the retaking of the elven base that orbit around Karpri), Ioulaum (its present state fits perfectly with my campaign), the Githyanki invasion (Dr309) and other nasty things. The basic idea around epic adventure around epic adventure is doing something unthinkble by normal people for example conquering Zenthil Keep by brute force or such. Another idea is taking high level adventures and boost the difficulty level to impossible heights. Aside from that you can adapt epic adventures from Dungeon Magazine or from 3rd party sources to fit in FR; it s not very difficult. |
| Karsus the Mad06-24-07, 07:43 PM | I doubt it helps, but in my own game (before I moved here and stopped gaming), Ioulaum had transferred his essence to a small human boy in Silverymoon (an 8 year old apprentice). His master mage was always so proud of him, but also annoyed that his apprentice habitually corrected him in front of magical theologians:P |
| lavekkia06-25-07, 07:24 PM | I doubt it helps, but in my own game (before I moved here and stopped gaming), Ioulaum had transferred his essence to a small human boy in Silverymoon (an 8 year old apprentice). His master mage was always so proud of him, but also annoyed that his apprentice habitually corrected him in front of magical theologians:P An interesting quirk.... ;) Another interesting epic idea would be delving into Imaskar ruins. Or going to Osse to battle the Giants In Grey. |
| hawkinsthedm07-02-07, 05:16 PM | Tuesday i ll start a new campaign that hopefully will run from lvl 10 to 40. I'd be interested in reading your campaign notes if you do not mind sharing them. |
| lavekkia07-02-07, 06:25 PM | Of course :) Now we are on the early stages, in fact my players are still in Mystara I plan to make the jump (by spelljamming ship) between the next session (tomorrow evening in Italy) and Thursday evening. Basically it will be the invasion of the Forgotten Realms by Githyanki commanded by a VERY powerful (lvl 40) Lich Queen with a score of ad hoc developed epic powers. You can see some of them here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=548975 I will throw in the mix some ancient secrets of Faerun past (especially Netherese magic like Mythallars) and link some of them with the Mystaran past (The Nucleus Of All Spheres below Glantri City). Ioulaum will become their guide (in the future) to oppose the Lich Queen. I have also further developed the concept of Eldreeth Veluuthra into a multiple world spanning powerful organization For epic play i plan them to destroy the Forge Of Khamyn Dhun: a ages old Silver Sword forge magically transplanted to the sea bottom of Karpri (IMC Karpri waterworld has a solid core as any other planet) and rebuilt by the armies of Vlaakith; you can use Dun 114 adventure "Seekers of the Silver Forge" as a starting point. Another adventure will bring them in the far jungles of Kara - Tur below a Volcano to destroy the biggest gith hatchery of the entire crystal sphere (another option would be placing the hatchery on Anadia... i have not yet decided). On the divine side i plan one of my PC to become a Chosen Of Lathander (sort of... not in the strict sense of the term) and i will make use of the events detailed in Power Of Faerun: The Heresy Of The Risen Sun. I will also use the Dun 100 adventure "Lich Queen Beloved" to end the campaign but i will boost the difficulty by 20 levels (it will be VERY difficult but i think i will manage it). There also will be a mini adventure where my PC will return to Mystara and get rid of our worst enemy: a VERY powerful nightwing (i ll boost it to low epic level) named Caronte. It s our recurring enemy since 1996 so think it will be VERY VERY VERY fun to defeat it.:evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh I ll add more info soon, stay tuned ;) |
| Krash07-02-07, 06:46 PM | I had an Epic FR article submission that Dragon indicated that they were interested in and wanted to have a look at, but with the demise of that magazine, I really don't know what will happen to it. -- George Krashos |
| Mr_Miscellany07-03-07, 02:20 AM | I had an Epic FR article submission that Dragon indicated that they were interested in and wanted to have a look at, but with the demise of that magazine, I really don't know what will happen to it. Damn...that would have been very useful, no doubt. :( |
| ancalimohtar07-03-07, 07:19 AM | The problem from a game mechanics point of view is that, unfortunately, epic is broken. A level 21 character is about three to five times as powerful as a level 20 character, and the game becomes unplayable not long after that. |
| lavekkia07-03-07, 06:12 PM | The problem from a game mechanics point of view is that, unfortunately, epic is broken. A level 21 character is about three to five times as powerful as a level 20 character, and the game becomes unplayable not long after that. [removed] |
| Karsus the Mad07-03-07, 06:57 PM | The problem from a game mechanics point of view is that, unfortunately, epic is broken. A level 21 character is about three to five times as powerful as a level 20 character, and the game becomes unplayable not long after that. How is a 21st level character 3-5 times more powerful than a level 20 character:confused: |
| hawkinsthedm07-04-07, 01:45 AM | The problem from a game mechanics point of view is that, unfortunately, epic is broken. A level 21 character is about three to five times as powerful as a level 20 character, and the game becomes unplayable not long after that. Ya. I would like to know that as well. :confused: |
| ancalimohtar07-04-07, 01:54 AM | Because they are. The ability to take epic feats, craft epic spells, combine prestige classes to grant access to things you couldn't fit into 20 leves--that's what breaks the epic game. Ask around the CO board if you want to know more, and I hope you don't. ;) |
| Karsus the Mad07-04-07, 07:50 AM | Because they are. The ability to take epic feats, craft epic spells, combine prestige classes to grant access to things you couldn't fit into 20 leves--that's what breaks the epic game. Ask around the CO board if you want to know more, and I hope you don't. ;) ? I've yet to have experienced any inbalance. And you really shouldn't go by the CO boards when determining what is or isn't balanced:) They break the game by level 5. |
| hawkinsthedm07-04-07, 12:43 PM | Because they are. The ability to take epic feats, craft epic spells, combine prestige classes to grant access to things you couldn't fit into 20 leves--that's what breaks the epic game. Ask around the CO board if you want to know more, and I hope you don't. ;) I have played epic characters before too, and never noticed an imbalance. However, when you come to epic critters, there does not seem to be enough critters in the ELH to acid test the new ones you make. So some epic critters seem to be out of balance in my opinion. Actually, it is the creation of epic critters that makes it difficult for me to DM an epic game (and which is why I haven't yet). And the lack of an epic FR bestiary, and other epic materials, basically, WOTC just needs to start pushing out new and UPDATED (read "3.5") epic material in my mind. But it is unfair to state that epic characters are unbalanced considering all the work they went through to keep them from unbalancing the game. P.S. What is the OC Board? New to the forum. |
| hawkinsthedm07-04-07, 12:51 PM | There is City of the Spider Queen module wich runs from 10th to 18th level, that is almost epic. Oh, ya. I have this module, and I am running it with my wife. Since there are only two of us, I am letting us start at level 12. Just got done helping her equip her Level 12 Swordsage. And I am a Level 2 Monk/4 Sorcerer/6 Enlightened Fist (CAr, pg 34) with the Ascetic Mage Feat (CAd, pg 105). And we stocked up on potions of healing. It looks to be fun. |
| Mr_Miscellany07-04-07, 06:35 PM | Because they are. The ability to take epic feats, craft epic spells, combine prestige classes to grant access to things you couldn't fit into 20 leves--that's what breaks the epic game. Ask around the CO board if you want to know more, and I hope you don't. ;) The Epic game has always required a competent, experienced DM that knows his campaign, knows the rules and knows his players. The Epic rules rely on this. Otherwise, it’s approximately as broken as you say it is. And I thought it was the “CO” (character optimization) Forum? Been awhile since I’ve been there...maybe they’ve changed the name? I agree with hawkinsthedm: We need more Epic creatures...preferably Realms themed. :) |
| hawkinsthedm07-04-07, 08:03 PM | And I thought it was the “CO” (character optimization) Forum? Been awhile since I’ve been there...maybe they’ve changed the name? Lol. Occasionally I am dyslexic while typing. :D |
| Karsus the Mad07-04-07, 10:41 PM | Yeah, the Character Optimization boards. Amazing things they can do with numbers...they make the entire game seem broken. Easy fix: an actual DM:cool: |
| Karsus the Mad07-05-07, 12:09 AM | [B]The Epic game has always required a competent, experienced DM that knows his campaign, knows the rules and knows his players. The Epic rules rely on this. Otherwise, it’s approximately as broken as you say it is.[/B) :) I missed this part the first time. To paraphrase myself, "Epic abuse is the result of poor DM managment and players should never be held legally accountable for their munchkinism." Of course, I was speaking of epic spells in that regard, but I think it applies evenly throughout all aspects of the game. Munchkinism in any form is due to poor DM management (saying that as a DM!). |
| ancalimohtar07-05-07, 01:49 AM | The problem is, if you read the rules as they were meant to be read, almost nothing in 1-20 is broken. You simply can't make a broken character if your DM is simply honest with himself (and bans a few little things from SS and other places) in his reading of the rules. Epic, though, is straight up unbalanced. Say what you will about the CO board, but most of the regulars there, I included, are reasonable people who make builds that don't subsist on cheese. We think up strategies and synergies that are good because they're good, not because they rely on a dishonest reading of the rules. For epic though, conservatively reading the rules results in problems. Most of you guys are not used to the CO way of thinking. You take a regular character, advance him haphazardly through twenty levels, and then continue to take some cool levels through epic. That's not the way to test the brokenness of the rules. You've got 20 levels regularly, and an idea. You look up all the crunch that has anything to do with that idea, or that synergizes with that idea. You fit the best of these things into 20 levels. Luckily, 95% of the time you don't break the game. But when you've got 21 or more levels to work with, everything goes bat-doo-doo crazy. Simple example I just came up with: Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix10/Halruuan Elder 4, goes epic with 1 more 'trix level. Hello multispell! Now that Quicken is +2 (improved metamagic from Incantatrix, Adroit casting from Halruuan elder), and Quickened Greater Celerity is a a 9th level spell (Arcane Thesis: Greater Celerity), and due to multispell you can cast two quickened spells a round, you can now blast out your entire spell repertoire in one round due to Arcane fusions and celerities. Good game. |
| Mr_Miscellany07-05-07, 04:40 AM | Sorry everyone...just noticed the d/p. |
| Mr_Miscellany07-05-07, 04:44 AM | Most of you guys are not used to the CO way of thinking. ...even though you said "most", you'd do much better by not assuming anything about anyone you've not personally gamed with, nor their friends/fellow players, on these boards. Just because I started gaming when 1st Edition was King and 2nd Edition was not yet more than a good idea waiting to see print, doesn't mean I or any other around here can't render up a Monty Hall character, should we so choose, in any Edition of the rules you care to play with. (How else do you think we could effectively challenge our players, all this time?) ;) ::::::::::::: I've run my Realms Campaign using 3rd Edition rules since 2000, just prior to the release of the FRCS. This campaign has been run organically, with no level skipping or rebooting, from level 1 to (ECL) 23. The players are all experienced hands at the game (and other games), with something like 70 years of combined gaming experience between them (not including my experience). In that 7 year span of time I've seen and encountered broken rules at just about every level of play. I've also encountered players eager to exploit those rules, to their char's advantage. On average I've worked with or around these rules, to the benefit of my player's enjoyment/fun, without ruining my own fun. This hasn't changed for me once our campaign hit Epic. For example: on its face the Epic Spell rules are broken. Just about any effect you want to make...you can. Throw in NPC spellcasters and/or fellow PC spellcasters and one can reduce DCs to manageable levels for 21-24th level players. Just like the ELH says: This is where the DM comes in. A DM by this point is assumed to know his or her players, their play style, their wants/needs at this point in the campaign (not to mention the same for the DM)....this is what the DM uses before rendering final judgment on whether an Epic Spell proposed by a player will 'work' in the campaign world. So....is a Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix11/Halruuan Elder 4 broken? In my Realms Campaign.....I'd have to say, "No." (I’d also say that sounds like a rad character, but I digress.) G'head and blow your spell wad if you like. Sometimes it'll be enough to win the encounter, sometimes it won't. And when it won't, you'll have to be ready to dig deep with whatever you got left, because my campaign won't stop being challenging just because some PC figured out how to do one better than Time Stop without actually casting it. Good gaming to you (and you all) as well. :) |
| ancalimohtar07-05-07, 07:14 AM | ...even though you said "most", you'd do much better by not assuming anything about anyone you've not personally gamed with, nor their friends/fellow players, on these boards. Just because I started gaming when 1st Edition was King and 2nd Edition was not yet more than a good idea waiting to see print, doesn't mean I or any other around here can't render up a Monty Hall character, should we so choose, in any Edition of the rules you care to play with.This is actually pretty funny. You're getting offended because I said you don't create builds the same we we do on the CO board? You've been playing a campaign for 7 years with the same characters, without "rebooting." Unless you had access to 3.5 rules three years before they were printed, (not to mention all the other stuff that's changed the game since then), your characters were not made the way we make characters on the CO board by definition. I've run my Realms Campaign using 3rd Edition rules since 2000, just prior to the release of the FRCS. This campaign has been run organically, with no level skipping or rebooting, from level 1 to (ECL) 23. The players are all experienced hands at the game (and other games), with something like 70 years of combined gaming experience between them (not including my experience). In that 7 year span of time I've seen and encountered broken rules at just about every level of play. I've also encountered players eager to exploit those rules, to their char's advantage. On average I've worked with or around these rules, to the benefit of my player's enjoyment/fun, without ruining my own fun. This hasn't changed for me once our campaign hit Epic. For example: on its face the Epic Spell rules are broken. Just about any effect you want to make...you can. Throw in NPC spellcasters and/or fellow PC spellcasters and one can reduce DCs to manageable levels for 21-24th level players. Just like the ELH says: This is where the DM comes in. A DM by this point is assumed to know his or her players, their play style, their wants/needs at this point in the campaign (not to mention the same for the DM)....this is what the DM uses before rendering final judgment on whether an Epic Spell proposed by a player will 'work' in the campaign world.Oberoni fallacy. Plus, you just made my point for me with your little anecdote. So....is a Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix11/Halruuan Elder 4 broken? In my Realms Campaign.....I'd have to say, "No." (I’d also say that sounds like a rad character, but I digress.) G'head and blow your spell wad if you like. Sometimes it'll be enough to win the encounter, sometimes it won't.I somehow doubt a sorcerer's entire spell repertoire at the very first round of combat is not enough to win most combat encounters, even the difficult ones. And even if it isn't, if you're going against golems or high-SR enemies, you can choose to split up your wad into however many rounds you like. It's a stupidly powerful character, nothing pre-epic even comes close to. You are free to disagree, of course. Be sure to continue bragging about however many years of D&D you and your buddies have played. Actually, head over to the CO board and start up a discussion. We're a whole different community on that side of the fence, and your appeals to authority will get all a good laugh. :) And when it won't, you'll have to be ready to dig deep with whatever you got left, because my campaign won't stop being challenging just because some PC figured out how to do one better than Time Stop without actually casting it.My goodness, you take everything as a personal insult to your D&D or DMing abilities, don't you? |
| Mr_Miscellany07-05-07, 02:06 PM | This is actually pretty funny. You're getting offended because I said you don't create builds the same we we do on the CO board? Where did I state I was offended? You've been playing a campaign for 7 years with the same characters, without "rebooting." "Rebooting" means not having started the campaign over at any time. We did make the transition to 3.5 when it was released (after a group vote) and I allowed them to revise their PCs' accordingly. I suppose that's technically a form or "rebooting", isn't it? Unless you had access to 3.5 rules three years before they were printed, (not to mention all the other stuff that's changed the game since then), your characters were not made the way we make characters on the CO board by definition. Wrong. See above, plus you don’t know my players (or the specifics of most people’s campaigns who also frequent the Realms boards, I’d wager). You haven’t sat with them at the table, read their builds, etc...I’m not responding from an offense but rather common sense when I say, “You don’t know them, so please don’t presume otherwise.” Really, that’s it. Incidentally, we’ve begun using PHBII retraining rules...so far no headaches for me and my players seem happy with a means of ‘turning back the clock’ to get more RPMs out of their characters. They very much enjoy planning ahead for their PCs, but even the best builds can use a little tweaking. I wonder what the CO Board’s reaction to the PHBII rules for retraining were? Oberoni fallacy. Plus, you just made my point for me with your little anecdote.No. Your point was that Epic is broken. I responded showing how this is only true if the DM isn’t involved. I also cited the ELH, which says as much. Are you claiming the DM does not have an expanded role to play in an Epic Campaign? As an aside, Oberoni’s fallacy is wrong, and always has been. It sprang from a rules-centric attitude that assumed the DM was little more than a flagman on the street whose only job was to wave rules-following players by and on down the road, instead of as an all-powerful traffic cop who could shut them down when he deemed necessary. I somehow doubt a sorcerer's entire spell repertoire at the very first round of combat is not enough to win most combat encounters, even the difficult ones. I’d be curious to know for how long and how consistently you actually play in an Epic Level game? We’ve been into Epic levels for something like 2 to 2.5 years on a weekly basis....in my experience the type of opening salvo your build provides for is powerful, just not always enough. And even if it isn't, if you're going against golems or high-SR enemies, you can choose to split up your wad into however many rounds you like. It's a stupidly powerful character, nothing pre-epic even comes close to. I disagree with the “close to” comment, but even so the build is Epic. Therefore pre-epic by definition is less powerful then Epic, right? ;) You are free to disagree, of course. Be sure to continue bragging about however many years of D&D you and your buddies have played. Actually, head over to the CO board and start up a discussion. We're a whole different community on that side of the fence, and your appeals to authority will get all a good laugh. :) If you’re claiming that playing experience counts for nothing, then why would I want to visit? Fortunately I’ve ghosted through the CO boards before, so I know it’s not entirely as arrogant and elitist as you make it out to be. As for bragging...please. If you don’t know how to parse DMing and playing experience as integral to managing the rules and a campaign, then I won’t try and explain it to you. My goodness, you take everything as a personal insult to your D&D or DMing abilities, don't you? Please don’t assume that just because I disagree with you that I’m somehow offended or angry. I simply tried to illustrate what my response would be to an Epic PC built along the lines you describe. The players in my game tend to favor Time Stop+whichever spells are best suited to cast when starting an encounter. Your build was definitely one better then that tactic, so for the purpose judging that build in my campaign vs. your claim that Epic was simply ‘broken’, I contrasted the two. I think I like your idea for that build for use as an NPC (or three). In closing, I'm not offended. I also respect you guys over on CO. I don't visit nearly as much as I used to (and I've never really posted there) but that doesn't mean I won't steal a good idea from there when I see it. It's a useful forum. But that doesn’t mean you guys hold a monopoly on builds or are simply ‘better’ just because you hang there (far from it, in fact). Remember, you were the one who said (erroneously), “Most of you guys are not used to the CO way of thinking...” Hope you all scored at least today or Friday off! :) |
| Crust07-05-07, 04:37 PM | I highly recommend picking up Dungeon issue #123. http://paizo.com/dungeon/products/issues/2005/v5748btpy7xte "The Quicksilver Hourglass" is set for level 30, and it is an incredible module. I used it as the culminating module for my own epic campaign which lasted four years. It was heavily modified, of course, but it did a lot of the work for me. I found it fascinating, being set at such high levels. |
| hawkinsthedm07-05-07, 05:18 PM | Hope you all scored at least today or Friday off! :) Sad :mad: I only got the 4th off, and my wife gets yesterday, today, and tomorrow off! :weep: |
| Faraer07-05-07, 05:29 PM | I haven't used the D&D Epic rules, but I know that many people have successfully run high-level campaigns with them, while others have found 'balance' problems. Ergo they are not 'broken' (that term is almost always a crass self-melodramatization) just because they permit abuses -- it would be quite futile to try to perfectly and robotically 'balance' a set of high-level D&D rules for all groups and their campaigns, given all the possibilities. In regards to the Realms, obviously 'Epic' is an arbitrary cut-off point, and very high-level material should be part of the mix. |
| Karsus the Mad07-05-07, 07:37 PM | I haven't used the D&D Epic rules, but I know that many people have successfully run high-level campaigns with them, while others have found 'balance' problems. Ergo they are not 'broken' (that term is almost always a crass self-melodramatization) just because they permit abuses -- it would be quite futile to try to perfectly and robotically 'balance' a set of high-level D&D rules for all groups and their campaigns, given all the possibilities. In regards to the Realms, obviously 'Epic' is an arbitrary cut-off point, and very high-level material should be part of the mix. Ditto, ditto, ditto! I believe this is perhaps the first time I have ever agreed 100% with Faraer. I have ran rather successful Epic campaigns without any problem whatsoever (in the Realms no less!). Anything "broken" would be completely due to my own incompetance. |
| lavekkia07-05-07, 07:38 PM | A little update about my - maybe one day - epic campaign: I plan (to spice up the life of my elven PCs) to include Eldreeth Veluuthra and increase its influence to multiple crystal spheres. Their biggest plan is to resurrect a very old elven demigod (Velesia; see Deities and Demigod of Faerun thread) to serve as their divine patron. Its body initially rested below the serpent hills but was moved into a far away sphere. The big adventure will obviously be confronting the Demigod himself to get rid of him. EDIT: another idea - some catastrophic event (or even a well timed minor one) could trigger the destruction of the Calimemnon crystal and the freeing of Calim and Memnon with their genie court. PC will have to face the two, their court (probably only a few to spice up the adventure) and Pharos, the baelnorn wizard that guarded them which consider them responsible of the catastrophe |
| ancalimohtar07-05-07, 08:43 PM | It's really quite impossible to argue this kind of thing online. I say it's broken. You say you've never had a problem with it. I say that's because your players are not squeezing all the potential power out of their resources. You say I don't know jack about your players, and get all offended. Do you see the problem with this? To show you you're wrong, I would have to come up with at least 4 well-built epic characters, and you would have to come up with a CR-balanced epic level encounter, and then we would have to play-by-post. And then in the end, I would whoop your encounter. That is way too much work, and I don't care enough about whether people here believe me to go through that work. Suffice to say, I am not jerking you around. In D&D, offense scales more quickly than defense. When you get to epic levels, the things you can do to take out enemies is far more than they can do to defend themselves. Battles last fewer rounds in epic than in pre-epic. If you let a sorcerer unload his entire spell-list, or a well-built charger/pouncer (or shadow pouncer, if you want overkill) get one good routine on your BBEG, that's it. The encounter is essentially over. Again, you can say all you want about your games being okay, but that doesn't mean that if the characters were fully optimized, your game would still be okay. |
| ancalimohtar07-05-07, 09:29 PM | Oh, and I don't know how I failed to mention the other big problems with balance in epic: Spellcasters are orders of magnitude more powerful than melee. It just becomes silly to try to play a non-caster in epic level games. In addition, certain classes are just built really crappily for epic, and others really well. You're going to need mystic theurge for certain builds, but in epic, the MT is not really a theurge, and not mystical. I don't even know whether prestige classes like the arcane heirophant work in epic. And it goes on. |
| Faraer07-05-07, 10:12 PM | 'Broken' is an absolute claim: either it's idiotic hyperbole or it means the rules don't work, not just that they don't work well for a particular style of play. Is 'fully optimized' a euphemism for munchkin rules abuse? |
| Crust07-05-07, 10:47 PM | To show you you're wrong, I would have to come up with at least 4 well-built epic characters, and you would have to come up with a CR-balanced epic level encounter, and then we would have to play-by-post. And then in the end, I would whoop your encounter. That is way too much work, and I don't care enough about whether people here believe me to go through that work. Using "The Quicksilver Hourglass" as an example, I've had to make adjustments so that I didn't accidently initiate a TPK. The module contains, among other things, an advanced colossal blackstone gigant. With four slams at +75 and a fort. DC of 50 to avoid being petrified, I felt that it would have been too much for even my group of 27th level PCs, so I removed it. Just before I ran this module, I threw an xixecal at them, and they fled. It can't be assumed that epic PCs will destroy all opposition. In the year-and-a-half we gamed in epic levels, I never noticed anything that was broken. |
| ancalimohtar07-05-07, 10:58 PM | Using "The Quicksilver Hourglass" as an example, I've had to make adjustments so that I didn't accidently initiate a TPK. The module contains, among other things, an advanced colossal blackstone gigant. With four slams at +75 and a fort. DC of 50 to avoid being petrified, I felt that it would have been too much for even my group of 27th level PCs, so I removed it. Just before I ran this module, I threw an xixecal at them, and they fled. It can't be assumed that epic PCs will destroy all opposition. In the year-and-a-half we gamed in epic levels, I never noticed anything that was broken.Again, that's because your PCs are not optimized. I don't know how else to explain it. The part of my post you quoted said this exact same thing, and I'm just repeating myself at this point: If I had the time and attention span, I would create a party of 4 that would rock that entire module, at level 21. Edit: The blackstone gigant is a wimp. Just prevent it from getting to your party via various no-save fog spells or whatever, and wail on him from a distance. Accomplish this through timestop or arcane fusion, above. Edit2: Looked up the xixecal. It insta-kills any good- or neutral-aligned creatures of level 26 and below with blasphemy. I suppose that makes it very difficult to beat since you have to do it in one round, but greater celerity as an immediate at the beginning of combat, unload all your spells, loot body. |
| hawkinsthedm07-06-07, 01:35 AM | Ancalimohtar, I kindly request that if you are going to continue to debate the balance of Epic Characters that you create your own thread in the epic forum. The purpose of this thread is to help FR players find epic material, not battle out the balance system of epic characters. Thank you, Hawkins |
| ancalimohtar07-06-07, 02:01 AM | Ancalimohtar, I kindly request that if you are going to continue to debate the balance of Epic Characters that you create your own thread in the epic forum. The purpose of this thread is to help FR players find epic material, not battle out the balance system of epic characters. Thank you, HawkinsThe two topics are not unrelated. You won't see published epic adventures with the level of detail of the Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch books precisely because epic is unbalanced. The rules for epic were written almost as an oversight. They don't spend any money developing it, because if you're playing at that level, you're houseruling almost everything anyway, plus you're a tiny percentage of the population and your money doesn't matter. Sorry for being harsh, but you asked for it. (In any case, our discussion on the balance of epic levels is only helping your cause by bumping this thread--and thus the OP--to the top every few hours. You should be thanking us!) |
| Crust07-06-07, 02:25 AM | Again, that's because your PCs are not optimized. Big deal. If my PCs are optimized, then my foes are optimized. |
| ancalimohtar07-06-07, 07:58 AM | Big deal. If my PCs are optimized, then my foes are optimized.What does that mean? I don't get it. |
| Crust07-06-07, 10:03 AM | What does that mean? I don't get it. That means that if my players are optimizing like is done on the CO boards (10 different levels, gestalt, etc.), then the foes I set before my PCs are also going to be optimized in order to maintain balance and give my players a sense of accomplishment. Even in epic levels, my PCs had a fear of death (or dismemberment, or losing magical items, or losing a level, or any other doom that befalls non-epic PCs). They were not invincible. They were capable of quite a bit (the barbarian using dire charge, the arcane trickster quickening three ray spells for the impromptu sneak, etc.), but there were limits, even at level 28. You made the assumption that we don't optimize, but we do. It's not like what I see on the CO board, but we do plan out classes, prestige classes, feats, and ability score selections in order to produce the finest example of whatever build the player is working with. In this DM's games, though, the opposition is hiked up a notch to account for such powerful builds. I have to do that, or it's just us knocking down bowling pins. |
| ancalimohtar07-06-07, 02:14 PM | That means that if my players are optimizing like is done on the CO boards (10 different levels, gestalt, etc.), then the foes I set before my PCs are also going to be optimized in order to maintain balance and give my players a sense of accomplishment. Even in epic levels, my PCs had a fear of death (or dismemberment, or losing magical items, or losing a level, or any other doom that befalls non-epic PCs). They were not invincible. They were capable of quite a bit (the barbarian using dire charge, the arcane trickster quickening three ray spells for the impromptu sneak, etc.), but there were limits, even at level 28. You made the assumption that we don't optimize, but we do. It's not like what I see on the CO board, but we do plan out classes, prestige classes, feats, and ability score selections in order to produce the finest example of whatever build the player is working with. In this DM's games, though, the opposition is hiked up a notch to account for such powerful builds. I have to do that, or it's just us knocking down bowling pins.My point is that every player optimizes his character to the best of his ability, given a character concept. What happens in epic when you've got players who have the time and resources to crunch powerful builds is that the DM is forced to spend an even more extensive amount of time house-ruling and balancing and nerfing and building encounters just to make the game playable. This is because the epic system is built badly. It's just not worth the effort, in the end, and WotC knows it, and won't put out epic adventure material because it will be crap because the system is crap. And nobody wants to buy crap. |
| Steelwind07-06-07, 02:49 PM | Listen, as an (in)frequent visitor/contributer to the CO boards I know as to what you are referencing Anca, but I am also inclined to agree with the point that a good and wise DM can handle and challenge even the "cheaters of mystra" and "kings of smack" out there, although this is not to say that I dont think the epic system could use a little tweaking, but for now its the only one we have. Also, if I may be so bold, try using a bit of tact in your debates my friend, I know personally that it isn't practiced much on the CO boards, but around here it will garner you more respect and people will be more willing to politely debate with you. |
| Karsus the Mad07-06-07, 06:46 PM | My point is that every player optimizes his character to the best of his ability, given a character concept. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but no, that is completely and utterly untrue. I take offense at such shallow gaming. My player's characters are NOT aware of metagaming. |
| Crust07-06-07, 08:20 PM | My point is... Yeah, I know. I was elaborating for you, since you asked. |
| Faraer07-06-07, 08:44 PM | My point is that every player optimizes his character to the best of his ability, given a character concept.Of course they don't. That's a specific play style, and a concept that wouldn't even occur to many people if others didn't introduce them to it. |
| Mr_Miscellany07-07-07, 05:56 AM | I noticed ancalimohtardidn’t answer my question about how often/regularly he plays Epic. I take it then the answer is, “Not that much at all,” yes? Do you see the problem with this? Yes, it's obvious: (with respect) A-you're assuming far more than you can possibly know and, B-you’ve obviously misunderstood how Epic play works. To show you you're wrong, I would have to come up with at least 4 well-built epic characters, and you would have to come up with a CR-balanced epic level encounter, and then we would have to play-by-post. This is your problem right here. You're trying to use custom Epic PCs vs. a "CR-balanced" encounter. Epic doesn’t work that way. FACT: regardless of PC level/power level, a DMs job is to make fun, challenging encounters. It doesn’t matter how a PC is built, because the DM is still going to make the encounters challenging (see Crust’s salient points above). As you (should) know, CR’s aren’t fixed guarantees of anything. They’re estimates that guide a DM in building encounters. This becomes even more true at Epic levels, where power levels are maxed out and can vary widely from one group to the next. How does it follow, then, that a simple level-appropriate CR encounter will work as a proper test? Answer: It won't. At Epic levels more so than at any other point in level progression (except for perhaps the opening levels of play) the DM must rely on a steady hand to make the game work (ergo Oberoni’s Fallacy is invalid for this discussion; not that it was ever valid for anything to begin with). This is why your suggested means of ‘testing’ is doomed to fail before it even gets started. Four unique individuals running four well developed PCs and one unique DM running (Epic) encounters for those players is a far, far different activity then a munchkin soloing four flavorless, min/maxed PCs at once vs. a cookie-cutter monster or set of monsters. Again, you can say all you want about your games being okay, but that doesn't mean that if the characters were fully optimized, your game would still be okay. Now according to ancalimohtar, he somehow magically knows that none of our players optimize their characters fully (because if they did then we’d all agree with him that Epic is broken), so my players must not "fully optimize" their PCs.... ....in response to which I call bull ****. I need only recall what the Drow Fighter/Bard/Dervish can do in a round in my campaign to know ancalimohtar is simply wrong. In fact I'd say that character is more fully optimized than anything the CO Boards can come up with, because that character isn't just stats cobbled together without consideration for a backstory that both explains why that PC has the classes she has and how that backstory shapes her in-character persona. :yawn: ...bedtime. |
| Crazygx3407-07-07, 07:38 AM | My point is that every player optimizes his character to the best of his ability, given a character concept. What happens in epic when you've got players who have the time and resources to crunch powerful builds is that the DM is forced to spend an even more extensive amount of time house-ruling and balancing and nerfing and building encounters just to make the game playable. This is because the epic system is built badly. It's just not worth the effort, in the end, and WotC knows it, and won't put out epic adventure material because it will be crap because the system is crap. And nobody wants to buy crap. Hello! I agree with you on somes point but you have to keep in mind the role-playing. D&D it a role-playing game your character not act and think like you, He also not know what you know. Maybe the characters that you speak of are very intelligents and got relation with the Gods. An epic character have to be powerfull because it generally rare and the adventure material is rare. But you are not forced to copy all the rules maybe you can use your imagination. D&D encourage the customization like said in Dungeon Master's Guide Book. Elminster and drizzt are 2 epic figures of the Forgottens Realms. I read some of there book and never they die. I found great to create or modify great encounter just for them because anyway lesser encounter wont make long against them. Me I dont think epic it crap. Use your imagination maybe your characters can get strong as you say but maybe sometimes he will have to use it for something not just for fight 20 level unbalanced characthers. I found it great to be epics better than to be 1 level. Because you got power and you become a figure of importance, respected and feared.You can create an epic story remembered by all. Definition of epic: Heroic and impressive in quality Thank to you and sorry for my english.:cool: |
| hawkinsthedm07-07-07, 02:56 PM | Hello! I agree with you on somes point but you have to keep in mind the role-playing. D&D it a role-playing game your character not act and think like you, He also not know what you know. I quite agree. Ancalimohtar, you seem to be focusing on the roll-playing rather than the role-playing :smirk:. Thank to you and sorry for my english.:cool: Thank you for your thoughts :cool:! |
| lavekkia07-08-07, 05:56 PM | Another epic idea from my campaign One of the many plans set into motion by Vlaakith is to shatter the Prime Wellspring Of Souls. The Wellspring is a monolith of blue rock situated in the Raurin Desert which controls all the Wells Of Souls of Realmspace. Jergal crafted all of them to prevent the use Incarnum in the Realms. The Lich Queen has direct interest in Incarnum magic but she can devour souls using his Wish Of Consumption Epic Spell to fuel her ascension to divinitiy. The quest is obviously to prevent the destruction of the Wellspring. Another option would be opening the Wellspring by themselves: while this could be apparently a suicide it is likely that after the initial soul dispersion Lord Kelemvor or Jergal himself will handle the matter making some sort of regulamentation. Vlaakith will certainly not oppose directly a god (at least initially) so will not try to steal souls for herself. PCs will be likely involved with high raking members of Kelemvor clergy. Another twist could be the opposition of Kelemvor priests and the silent approval of the few remaining Jergal priests. The Wellspring will be guatded by Incarnum infused guardians (i was thinking about buffed up Concordant Killers from MM4) |
| ancalimohtar07-11-07, 10:04 AM | This is the last time I'll be responding in this thread. In fact, it's the last time I'll open this thread. I'm unsubscribing to it right now. Mr_Miscellany has forgotten how to behave cordially, and I don't enjoy talking to random nasty strangers enough to spend what little free time I have on it. Sorry. You may reach me by PM. I noticed ancalimohtardidn’t answer my question about how often/regularly he plays Epic. I take it then the answer is, “Not that much at all,” yes?I've played before, multiple times, but not now, because my experiences with even marginally optimized characters were disastrous. Simply not worth the effort to balance things out. Yes, it's obvious: (with respect) A-you're assuming far more than you can possibly know and, B-you’ve obviously misunderstood how Epic play works.I wasn't going to do this quote-and-respond thing, taking everything out of context, because it's a failure in the design of the online messageboard argument medium. But I'll do it here to show you that you just said nothing. You assumed that I don't know what I'm talking about, accusing me of assuming more than I know. Pot, kettle? Congratulations, you're being a real ingenuous participant of the discussion! This is your problem right here. You're trying to use custom Epic PCs vs. a "CR-balanced" encounter. Epic doesn’t work that way. FACT: regardless of PC level/power level, a DMs job is to make fun, challenging encounters. It doesn’t matter how a PC is built, because the DM is still going to make the encounters challenging (see Crust’s salient points above). As you (should) know, CR’s aren’t fixed guarantees of anything. They’re estimates that guide a DM in building encounters. This becomes even more true at Epic levels, where power levels are maxed out and can vary widely from one group to the next. How does it follow, then, that a simple level-appropriate CR encounter will work as a proper test? Answer: It won't. At Epic levels more so than at any other point in level progression (except for perhaps the opening levels of play) the DM must rely on a steady hand to make the game work (ergo Oberoni’s Fallacy is invalid for this discussion; not that it was ever valid for anything to begin with).Read my post above. I'll quote it here again for your convenience:What happens in epic when you've got players who have the time and resources to crunch powerful builds is that the DM is forced to spend an even more extensive amount of time house-ruling and balancing and nerfing and building encounters just to make the game playable. This is because the epic system is built badly. It's just not worth the effort, in the end, and WotC knows it, and won't put out epic adventure material because it will be crap because the system is crap. And nobody wants to buy crap.If you may recall, this thread started with the purpose of requesting more epic FR material. (See thread title!) The reason why you won't see it is because it requires an inordinate amount of DM time to balance everything, and given sufficiently strategic players, the DM may not even have the resources to do so. Hence, "broken." This is why your suggested means of ‘testing’ is doomed to fail before it even gets started. Four unique individuals running four well developed PCs and one unique DM running (Epic) encounters for those players is a far, far different activity then a munchkin soloing four flavorless, min/maxed PCs at once vs. a cookie-cutter monster or set of monsters.So you're chicken, is that it? You don't want to take up the challenge? How about this: Start a thread on the CO board, we'll take four volunteers, who will each build a character, write a 500-word backstory, and play him independently, and test your theory. Not certain we'll be able to find four people who care enough about showing the uneducated masses how broken epic is to do this, but if we do, we'll see how broken epic can be. Now according to ancalimohtar, he somehow magically knows that none of our players optimize their characters fully (because if they did then we’d all agree with him that Epic is broken), so my players must not "fully optimize" their PCs.... ....in response to which I call bull ****. I need only recall what the Drow Fighter/Bard/Dervish can do in a round in my campaign to know ancalimohtar is simply wrong.Haha. You picked the worst possible example, man. If this were on the CO board, your post might be taken as an intentional parody, and perhaps sigged. Go to the Dervish Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=629013) and read about how bad the Bard is for the Dervish. Unless your PC has warchanter levels, and I doubt it, he's horrible. Now, onto the drow part: To optimize a drow character, the player has to make the DM realize the +2 official LA is completely silly. The marginal synergy with DEX/CHA is simply not worth it. Unless you've houseruled the drow in some way, that PC is about as optimized as a troglodyte wizard. Actually, I'm going to sig this. This is too good, man. Haha. In fact I'd say that character is more fully optimized than anything the CO Boards can come up with, because that character isn't just stats cobbled together without consideration for a backstory that both explains why that PC has the classes she has and how that backstory shapes her in-character persona.Stormwind fallacy. Here you go: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11990222&postcount=2 Look for the links to the original thread. A few choice quotes from his post: Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean he cannot also roleplay well. Just because a character plays his character well does not mean he cannot be optimized. Do not tell other people how to play the game. If you're having fun with poorly-min/maxed characters, fine, more power to you! No problems here! ...Unless you start asserting that yours is the ONLY way to play and people who make effective characters are somehow automatically worse at roleplaying than you are. People carry it in their sigs to say things. Some people use it incorrectly to say that "Because I'm a min-maxer, I'm a good roleplayer". Others use it correctly and say "Just because I play good characters doesn't mean I can't min/max" or "just because I min/max doesn't mean my character isn't deep". :yawn: ...bedtime.Real mature. Say hi to your teddy for me. By the way, if anyone is interested, I started a thread on the CO board a few days ago on this subject. By and large, everybody agreed: Epic is broken, as it is written. I see Mr_Miscellany has already visited it and found it educational. Here you go: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=880446 |
| hawkinsthedm07-11-07, 11:50 AM | By the way, if anyone is interested, I started a thread on the CO board a few days ago on this subject. By and large, everybody agreed: Epic is broken, as it is written. I see Mr_Miscellany has already visited it and found it educational. Here you go: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=880446 Lol. I love how you went to the CO board (not the Epic Board) to prove your point. Asking several like-minded people if they agree with you is like asking a child if she would prefer spinach or ice cream with her dinner--you can predict the answer. And yes, I did go and read your new thread :cool:. |
| lavekkia07-11-07, 03:22 PM | Back on topic please. As i was saying before... If anyone is interested i m working on a bunch of epic level NPCs, the most important is a CR 46 version of the Lich Queen. When completd i ll post it. Another thing: you may notice that my suggestions are a bit one way; i apologize for this but i completely absorbed by my campaign ATM. I the future things may change; so if anyone keep the thread focused things could improve. |
| Mr_Miscellany07-11-07, 08:54 PM | Hey lavekkia, Can we post Epic FR material that we've come up with from our own Realms Campaigns? Maybe include background and some history for other DMs to use? |
| ClobberinTime07-11-07, 09:08 PM | I really don't think its hard to stay ahead of players and make things challenging at any levels. One thing every DM should do is keep copies of their character sheets on hand and go over them as you are coming up with your scenarios. The key is trust, you aren't going to off the PCs unless they screw up, most of them will see it later where their own decisions did them in in the end. In return they will not nitpick you over the rules at every turn. So Epic Levels are easy if the DM is good, but it really accentuates a bad or weak DMs problems. If your players thought you were capricious and unprepared at level 15, what will they say about you at level 25? |
| hawkinsthedm07-12-07, 12:22 AM | Hey lavekkia, Can we post Epic FR material that we've come up with from our own Realms Campaigns? Maybe include background and some history for other DMs to use? I like the sound of that, that is kinda what I was hoping for when I started the thread. |
| lavekkia07-13-07, 03:08 PM | Hey lavekkia, Can we post Epic FR material that we've come up with from our own Realms Campaigns? Maybe include background and some history for other DMs to use? You should ask to the OP ;) If you ask me i would say of course; lots of them :D |
| Karsus the Mad07-13-07, 09:35 PM | This is the last time I'll be responding in this thread. In fact, it's the last time I'll open this thread. I'm unsubscribing to it right now. Mr_Miscellany has forgotten how to behave cordially, and I don't enjoy talking to random nasty strangers enough to spend what little free time I have on it. Sorry. You may reach me by PM. I fail to see how he was nasty. He spoke bluntly, but correctly. On the otherhand, please do not come around claiming Epic play is wrong/broken, and then get all offended/upset when those that have actually played Epic disagree. @lavekkia: go for it;) |
| BrennonGoldeye07-13-07, 10:09 PM | Because they are. The ability to take epic feats, craft epic spells, combine prestige classes to grant access to things you couldn't fit into 20 leves--that's what breaks the epic game. Ask around the CO board if you want to know more, and I hope you don't. ;) Real mature. Say hi to your teddy for me. Weesa thanksa Binnks for allsa the wisyness inbetweens thesa postes. Weesa Oldsters getsa sleepilike nows and thensa. :D Yeah, the Character Optimization boards. Amazing things they can do with numbers...they make the entire game seem broken. Easy fix: an actual DM:cool: Scary thing that. ;) Back on topic please. As i was saying before... If anyone is interested i m working on a bunch of epic level NPCs, the most important is a CR 46 version of the Lich Queen. When completd i ll post it. Another thing: you may notice that my suggestions are a bit one way; i apologize for this but i completely absorbed by my campaign ATM. I the future things may change; so if anyone keep the thread focused things could improve. Sorry Lav, I've been cought up in actual folk being killed by epic level crud for a few weeks. I've got just the 40-something for ya. Might take me a bit to type out onto Word but I'll get right to it.:D |
| Kihon07-16-07, 03:12 PM | Epic is not broken. If you think it is, you don't understand it - and that's ok. Epic adventure's are not for everyone, they take more understanding and planning to pull off (imo). I love epic games. I played 1-20 games for the first 10 years of my gaming life, and now everything we do is epic in nature. To each their own - it's a game - have fun! |
| hawkinsthedm07-16-07, 05:56 PM | Okay, back on topic. If you want to discuss (read: argue, whine, complain, et cetera) as to whether or not Epic play is broken, balanced, or smells funny, our friend Anca started this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=880446). And THIS thread is for the discussion/display of both official and unofficial (sometimes read: custom) Epic Forgotten Realms material. Thank you all! P.S. Lav, thanks for all your notes. It would be cool to see some of the stats of your baddies. |
| lavekkia07-19-07, 05:22 PM | Another epic idea from my campaign: Part of Vlaakith plan will be assassinating important people in all Toril/Realmspace she will send her spies everywhere to infiltrate and assassinate. During the development of the campaign the PC themselves by a non githyanki hired assassin (probably a Gloom). He will probaly be able to kill one of my PC and steal his soul. The remaining PCs will have to pursue the assassin and stop it before he arrives to the palace of the Lich Queen (the encounter will happen when PCs will not be powerful enough to challenge her). |
| Crust07-19-07, 07:36 PM | Another epic idea from my campaign: Part of Vlaakith plan will be assassinating important people in all Toril/Realmspace she will send her spies everywhere to infiltrate and assassinate. During the development of the campaign the PC themselves by a non githyanki hired assassin (probably a Gloom). He will probaly be able to kill one of my PC and steal his soul. The remaining PCs will have to pursue the assassin and stop it before he arrives to the palace of the Lich Queen (the encounter will happen when PCs will not be powerful enough to challenge her). Make sure your gloom targets a human. ;) I had Vlaakith searching for the means to attain demi-lichdom. I worked in the last half of The Return to the Tomb of Horrors box. The PCs had to destroy Acererak before Vlaakith's minions could get to him. Interestingly enough, after my PCs destroyed Vlaakith, I had a trio of gloom assassins hunt them down (an ultroloth loyal to Vlaakith sent them). The PCs were level 27-28 at the time. The human cleric of Mystra 22/spellfire channeler 4/paladin 2 was surprised by all three and he almost perished in that first round... until the elf wizard 28 used time stop and centered four delayed blast acid balls (two empowered, two fire admixed) on the melee. The cleric was immune to the acid and fire damage, but the glooms were completely destroyed. ;) |
| runestar07-21-07, 12:31 AM | new lv21 adventure (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.oerthjournal.com/oj22.html) It is set in some sort of abandoned elf court, so I guess it can be readily adapted to FR or something.:) |
| hawkinsthedm07-27-07, 05:01 PM | new lv21 adventure (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.oerthjournal.com/oj22.html) It is set in some sort of abandoned elf court, so I guess it can be readily adapted to FR or something.:) What is the name of the article? 62 pages is a lot to sift through. |
| Smilin_Bandit07-27-07, 07:15 PM | My companions and I are just about to go into an epic level campaign. Its my first and I'm DMing. One of the party is already epic level, and I'm not really having a problem. I don't see what all the hubbub is all about. Admittedly most of the adventure revolves around power play and politics, subterfuge and guile. There isn't a great deal of hack n slash. The majority of the experience comes from the actual roleplaying. I have noticed a bunch of posts in different threads where folks are playing a character that has more than one prestige class. My group has decided its alright to do so, but only after reaching epic level. I think a major problem that some people are seeing is the Monty Hall aspect of some DM's. Let's let all the monkey-see monkey-do number crunchers and power players make what they want, regardless of the considerations for a specific campaign. I don't get it! If your going for all powerful, why doesn't the GM just not worry about actually creating a campaign that the party can grow in, and allow everyone to have level 100 toons in a Forgotten Realms environment and give them all lightsabres and Tarrasque armor, then throw them all in a pit and see who survives? I'm seeing alot of these folks posting. It boggles my mind that these individuals consider themselves good DM's. I noticed one had taken a combat mage, added force missile mage, and eldritch knight (I think), and had created a magic missile that did over 100 points of damage. This guy went on to brag about how wonderful of a character creator and DM he was. It's guys like this that are probably teaching new gamers the game. No wonder we have such a bad rep. Nerds with a god complex. Hey guys, I got beat up in school today, so in response I'm throwing my 666th level, 12 prestige class, epic monster at you, good luck! STOOOPID! ~Smilin_Bandit~ :D |
| hawkinsthedm08-02-07, 12:28 PM | :bump: Just thought I would let you guys know that I am still interested in hearing about the Epic Realms games you are DMing and/or playing in. Someone mentioned earlier that they might post the stats of an Epic NPC or two that they had made, and I thought that would be cool too. |
| lavekkia08-02-07, 02:35 PM | I ll do it once they are completed don't worry ;) I have had another idea for my campaign; i plan to drop a few hints and see if players are interested and eventually expand the story. The campaign seed revolves aorund the concept of the destruction of the Dracorage mythal and the rising of dragons in all Faerun: now free to reign they could begin to scheme and plot openly to rule again the planet. Many references could become useful at this point: Races Of Dragons, Dragons Of Faerun, Monster Manual 5 (with the xorvintaal game/template). If you are not accustomed with (or you don t want to mess with) RoD and MM5 you could simply give dragons MANY class levels and PrCs, especially the ones from Draconomicon. When they are able to give the dragons the Epic Leadership feat and other related feats (boosting their Diplomacy and Intimidate scores) then give them high level (or even epic) servants and cohorts. Another option could be grouping scores of dragons together forming clans. This is a common scenario in the near planet of Coliar; and since the the Rage Of Dragons affected only Toril the majority of them survived. Finally there s another option, especially for epic casters: raising a new Dracorage Mythal. |
| hawkinsthedm08-02-07, 03:03 PM | That sounds cool! |
| lavekkia09-14-07, 08:02 PM | As i am a mighty threadomancer i can cast <thread resurrection> ;) Another idea for epic play: if you remember my campaign i plan to to run the Githyanki invasion from Dr309 in all Realmspace (but focusing on Toril) Vlaakith fear the Imperial Elven Navy because it VERY powerful (potential) foe. As a wonderful decoy the Lich Queen will release a powerful world destroyer (like the Witchlight Marauder or Turaglas the Ebon Maw) on an elven world (maybe Garden); the PC will have to run in aid of the IEN to gain their support (after all the IEN is multiple sphere organization and Toril is only one world and Vlaakith did not direclty threaten elven population). As a retaliation move the Lich Queen could summon the Elf Eater and drop it from orbit on Evermeet; being an abomination he could easily survive the orbital reentry and then... :evillaugh I suggest to use the stats found on Dicefreaks.com: it would make a much nastier version of the monster |
| Mordayn09-18-07, 06:54 AM | The campaign seed revolves aorund the concept of the destruction of the Dracorage mythal and the rising of dragons in all Faerun: now free to reign they could begin to scheme and plot openly to rule again the planet. This is amazingly similar to an idea I had for an epic campaign. Unfortunately I don't have that much time to DM anymore, and even less time creating adventures. I've Dm'ed one campaign that went from 1st to 30th level involving the destruction of the Seldarine. Never got to the climax of the campaign unfortunately as many of my players moved away and others got caught up in their lives. I've also played in an epic campaign, where I played a 22nd level paladin of Torm. This started as a realms campaign but eventually moved on to a homebrew world. Basically we had to save Abeir-Toril from becoming like the dark and twisted place that the homebrew world was. This campaign eventually died out as well. |
| hawkinsthedm09-19-07, 01:13 PM | As a retaliation move the Lich Queen could summon the Elf Eater and drop it from orbit on Evermeet; being an abomination he could easily survive the orbital reentry and then... :evillaugh I suggest to use the stats found on Dicefreaks.com: it would make a much nastier version of the monster Can you post a link the the Dicefreaks Elf-Eater? I have trouble navigating their site occasionally. :blush: |
| lavekkia09-23-07, 07:06 AM | Sorry that took me so much time: http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=311&start=579 |
| hawkinsthedm09-24-07, 11:45 AM | Having just read the Coral Kingdom (Druid Home Trilogy, Book 2), which features the Elf Eater in quite a bit of detail, the only problem I have with the dicefreaks version is that the maw deals 20d6 acid damage. In the book, it described how the maw was filled with many pieces of extremely sharp cartilage which then ground up the victim instantly. It could be as easy to fix as making it deal 20d6 physical (or maybe just slashing) damage. |