Epic Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jeremy8763
05-23-04, 02:33 AM My question on this top is very obvious, at least to myself. How many epic-level creatures can one kill. Most will answer this question by saying that anyone can creature innumerable creations of themselves, but in fact, how do you justifiably do so without breaking the rules in their entirity of Forgotten Realms. My explanation for said question is this.
In the Forgotten Realms libram of books published, there are numerous 'high-level' characters, the most famous of which being of course, Elminster, probably one of the eldest creations of Forgotten Realms and their creator, Ed Greenwood. Elminster is nie-unkillable unless divine interference were to become involved because Elminster has been around for generations upon generations, slighting one made mistake with another solution for a later date.
Now to use this in accordance of my original question I give you this example. A party of epic-level characters, say 25th level, who may be playing an evil-oriented party is given the quest of killing or capturing the fabled Elminster of Shadowdale. If said quest were actually completed, and Elminster killed, there-in is lost one of a handful of epic-level characters able to contend with such a party. How many high level mages can one make before, quite logically, there are no more high level mages left in the lands. There are only so many liches, so many archmages, and so many mummys.
In the ELH, there are very many high CR monsters given, which does help the situation, but only to a certain extent. You can only kill so many giant undead fetuses (fetus or fetuses) before you come to wonder how many bad divine pregnancies and still-borns happens among the gods. Even this goes deeper when I say that each god has his own 'realm' on different planes of existence, as well as these high CR creations. This would be fine if there was more books on the planes, or even a whole new published rulebook series for Planescape. As such, we are merely given a few details of each plane in the Planes book, but how can such a small book capture the true essence of even a singular plane when there are 5+ books on Forgotten Realms ALONE. That is one, singular world, Toril.
As a low level character you are usually given a quest such as to guard a caravan, or destroy a cave full of goblins, which is correct since goblins not only breed like rabbits and infest every corner of the world, but bandits are in abundance even in real-life. Yet, how many archmages or high-priests have lived for thousands of years, earned the knowledge they have, and yet are killed by a mere party of adventurers who in character terms have been around oh say, thirty years at most?
If a thousand year old monster/npc/creation is destroyed by a thirty year old party, the simple math suggests that this party alone could whipe out the entirity of Torils population of powerful beings out by themselves!
To conclude, I merely ask that there be either:

1.) More books to the planes, which would enable the use of Planescape system, or just to know where the hell you are, and what you're up against.

2.) More high-level adventures, rules, designs, etc, given for those of epic-level.

Thank you.
MrkGrismer
05-24-04, 11:58 AM Yeah, but the El the party killed was actually just a simulcarcum. The real (unpublished) one, is twice the level...

Well, that is ONE way...

(and it is reusable!)
dragonheart
05-28-04, 04:13 PM THat is one way but what is even better is to tie them into the politics of the realm - you notice that none of the epic level characters seems to try to kill his oppoents off they just try to devise schemes to outsmart and render them helpless - all of which never fully work but do sometimes change the balance of power somewhat. So what is really needed are rules for gaining experience from noncombat activities to make this much easier.
Lancelot3679
05-29-04, 10:32 AM DragonHeart has it, but that's easy enough to do in any game. My PCs get experience based on their role-playing more so than how much combat they get involved in. I don't know that there is a table for this. I will give out small amounts for little things, use of key skills when they aren't called for or making a caster use a spell that save the team time and money. That might be 50-100exp. Good Role-Playing, really being in character and doing those things that gets your character noticed by the NPCs and such can go as high as 500. Quest exp comes at the end of an adventure course, but I might give session exp. This is what I think you get for the time that you invest in the character and such. In the end, characters get enough xp that they don't worry if there wasn't enough combat for that session.

In the end Jeremy, you just have to have PCs kill epic creatures that are expendable and plentiful. Infernals aren't bad, and Winterwights are available from every demilich in D&D history. At the same time, if you want some of the epic creatures to be "Epic" and exist as the only one of their kind, you can make up new ones, not too hard.

My solution has always been to give levels to other cretures and put characters up against the best of the best. Sure, a beholder (CR13) isn't much, but, give him 14 levels of Sorceror and some buff spells in that mix, and it will make the characters think tiwce about delving into a strange cave with decorative hero statues at the enterance. :cool:
The Simbul
05-30-04, 01:32 PM There are ways to gain XP that dont involve the repetative seeking and destruction of beings equal to your CR.....this is D&D not Everquest.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jeremy8763 05-23-04, 02:33 AM	My question on this top is very obvious, at least to myself. How many epic-level creatures can one kill. Most will answer this question by saying that anyone can creature innumerable creations of themselves, but in fact, how do you justifiably do so without breaking the rules in their entirity of Forgotten Realms. My explanation for said question is this. In the Forgotten Realms libram of books published, there are numerous 'high-level' characters, the most famous of which being of course, Elminster, probably one of the eldest creations of Forgotten Realms and their creator, Ed Greenwood. Elminster is nie-unkillable unless divine interference were to become involved because Elminster has been around for generations upon generations, slighting one made mistake with another solution for a later date. Now to use this in accordance of my original question I give you this example. A party of epic-level characters, say 25th level, who may be playing an evil-oriented party is given the quest of killing or capturing the fabled Elminster of Shadowdale. If said quest were actually completed, and Elminster killed, there-in is lost one of a handful of epic-level characters able to contend with such a party. How many high level mages can one make before, quite logically, there are no more high level mages left in the lands. There are only so many liches, so many archmages, and so many mummys. In the ELH, there are very many high CR monsters given, which does help the situation, but only to a certain extent. You can only kill so many giant undead fetuses (fetus or fetuses) before you come to wonder how many bad divine pregnancies and still-borns happens among the gods. Even this goes deeper when I say that each god has his own 'realm' on different planes of existence, as well as these high CR creations. This would be fine if there was more books on the planes, or even a whole new published rulebook series for Planescape. As such, we are merely given a few details of each plane in the Planes book, but how can such a small book capture the true essence of even a singular plane when there are 5+ books on Forgotten Realms ALONE. That is one, singular world, Toril. As a low level character you are usually given a quest such as to guard a caravan, or destroy a cave full of goblins, which is correct since goblins not only breed like rabbits and infest every corner of the world, but bandits are in abundance even in real-life. Yet, how many archmages or high-priests have lived for thousands of years, earned the knowledge they have, and yet are killed by a mere party of adventurers who in character terms have been around oh say, thirty years at most? If a thousand year old monster/npc/creation is destroyed by a thirty year old party, the simple math suggests that this party alone could whipe out the entirity of Torils population of powerful beings out by themselves! To conclude, I merely ask that there be either: 1.) More books to the planes, which would enable the use of Planescape system, or just to know where the hell you are, and what you're up against. 2.) More high-level adventures, rules, designs, etc, given for those of epic-level. Thank you.
MrkGrismer 05-24-04, 11:58 AM	Yeah, but the El the party killed was actually just a simulcarcum. The real (unpublished) one, is twice the level... Well, that is ONE way... (and it is reusable!)
dragonheart 05-28-04, 04:13 PM	THat is one way but what is even better is to tie them into the politics of the realm - you notice that none of the epic level characters seems to try to kill his oppoents off they just try to devise schemes to outsmart and render them helpless - all of which never fully work but do sometimes change the balance of power somewhat. So what is really needed are rules for gaining experience from noncombat activities to make this much easier.
Lancelot3679 05-29-04, 10:32 AM	DragonHeart has it, but that's easy enough to do in any game. My PCs get experience based on their role-playing more so than how much combat they get involved in. I don't know that there is a table for this. I will give out small amounts for little things, use of key skills when they aren't called for or making a caster use a spell that save the team time and money. That might be 50-100exp. Good Role-Playing, really being in character and doing those things that gets your character noticed by the NPCs and such can go as high as 500. Quest exp comes at the end of an adventure course, but I might give session exp. This is what I think you get for the time that you invest in the character and such. In the end, characters get enough xp that they don't worry if there wasn't enough combat for that session. In the end Jeremy, you just have to have PCs kill epic creatures that are expendable and plentiful. Infernals aren't bad, and Winterwights are available from every demilich in D&D history. At the same time, if you want some of the epic creatures to be "Epic" and exist as the only one of their kind, you can make up new ones, not too hard. My solution has always been to give levels to other cretures and put characters up against the best of the best. Sure, a beholder (CR13) isn't much, but, give him 14 levels of Sorceror and some buff spells in that mix, and it will make the characters think tiwce about delving into a strange cave with decorative hero statues at the enterance. :cool:
The Simbul 05-30-04, 01:32 PM	There are ways to gain XP that dont involve the repetative seeking and destruction of beings equal to your CR.....this is D&D not Everquest.