Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Snog_Boggen 10-29-03, 10:29 PM	I think Drizzt is pretty darn cool, and I'm wondering if anyone else is bugged by his level. He is only 16th! Jeez, the dude has done more adventuring than my 20th level char! Is this an unfounded concern (asides from being pointless and stupid)? Maybe we could sign a petition for Drizzt to level up? Maybe start the LUTDD (Level Up That Damn Drow) Foundation? C'mon guys, dig deep!
Darkmistress 10-30-03, 12:00 AM	Drizzt doesn't warrant epic abilities, IMO. But if you want to, you could fool around with his stats in your own campaign.
Wooly Rupert 10-30-03, 12:32 AM	You know, I, personally, have never been a huge fan of Drizzt. Yeah, he's cool, and I certainly wouldn't want to square off against him, but I'm just not terribly much a Drizzt fan. I like Liriel and Jarlaxle better. They're cool, and they have style, too. :cool:
Darkmistress 10-30-03, 02:18 AM	*offers Wooly Rupert a flame-resistant apron*
Darius the Barbarian 10-30-03, 03:12 AM	You know, it's pretty hard to determine a character's power level according to novels. D&D mechanics and literature are simply two different worlds. From what I've read (e.g. in The Thousand Orcs where Drizzt flees from 5 frost giants, for instance), the drow's abilities don't really bear the clear "I-am-apparently-epic" mark. It's all a matter of preference and campaign style. I must admit I'm not a fan of those relatively weak official WotC writeups where folks cut down Twinkle from +5 to +2 just to remain below the controversial NPC wealth cap. Therefore, I made several versions of Drizzt and a few other chars, some of them are slightly corrected WotC writeups, others are clearly epic. I simply think that iconic charactes, living legends like Drizzt, deserve being impressive and still respectable not only when PCs are level 5 but also when they are level 15. Here, my revised Drizzt has some standard gear (belt, gloves, etc.) just like WotSQ chars in Dragon 302/312 (whose wealth often breaks the 500k mark in terms of equipment value) and he's level 20. I hope you like this writeup (Jarlaxle and Artemis are there as well): http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123737 Remember, it's your game. Reworking chars ain't that hard although it does require some work. If you think that "official" Drizzt is too weak, just make him level up in your campaign, just the way I do it IMC.
Harlamond 10-30-03, 05:57 AM	After the Drizzt write up in 2e I’ve hated the guy because TSR made the sucker super human and just plane impossible to beat no matter how many levels you had over him, WotC fixed this but I still dislike the character now even though he’s fixed. Oh well to each there own.
Boudewijn Brendergast 10-30-03, 07:27 AM	I liked the novels, I liked the drow, but I couldn't and still can't stand Drizzt. Luckily he's good and won't kill me for saying this (so guys follow his lead :D ) I'll go for Jarlaxle and those cute sisters of Drizzt. They have a certain Je ne sais qua that Drizzt just lacks. ***ducks for cover, teleports to random safer place to be, puts on ring of flame resistance***
Darkmistress 10-30-03, 07:32 AM	There are not enough flame-resistance-boosting items in the world to go around.
flanimal 10-30-03, 08:24 AM	Drizzt is the victim of the "Tony Hawk" complex, and deserves more respect than he gets. Not only are his essay's extremely insightful( yes I know bob wrote them, not drizzt), they are very accurate examples of the human condition( I still giggle at the irony of it). Through Drizzt's eyes we see that the difference between good and evil isn't as simple as night and day,and through his his experiences, we learn that anyone can be a real ***** hole, if you try hard enough. Through it all(except maybe exhile) he remains ever the optimist. As I read the books, I always pondered what I would have done in his place, and honestly I probally would have went back underground after sojourn. On a side-note, when I deal with a potentially difficult situation, I'll usually think" What Would Drizzt Do"(ok bad joke, but had to be said). I won't even get into his fighting skills, since that has never been contested, and probally never will be. Ok, now the "Tony Hawk" complex: Tony Hawk is a professional skateboarder that has dominated the sport( and yes it is a sport), for almost 3 deacades now. When I was young and stupid(now I'm just stupid), that was my bag. For some goofy reason("skateboard envy", yes pun intended), you couldn't be a Tony Hawk fan, or you were a "poser". A lot of Heavy metal and punk music fans suffer this affliction as well(your not supposed to like a band if more than 10 people have heard them), and sports fans call them "band-wagon jumpers", but you get the point. This is no different than when you go to your local game group and pull out your "drow of the underdark" sourcebook, and everyone looks at you like you just urinated on their favorite set of dice. I will admit one Drizzt clone after another gets very old very quick, but thats not b Bob's or Drizzt's fault, and really not the players fault if thats what they enjoy. Some of the "Drizzt haters" do have valid arguments, as some people percieve Dizzt as a "goody-two-shoes" and "un-reallistic". To these people I say "it's a Fantasy character, set in a Fantasy world, based on a Fantasy game." If thats not good enough, then I beseech you to name another protagonist with as much blood on his hands, as drizzt? Wow, I just noticed how long this post it, and I apologize . But hopefully my point is clearly expressed, and a little more creative than "Drizzt haters suck. thank you for your time and patience, flanimal p.s. grammer isn't one of my strong points.
Boudewijn Brendergast 10-30-03, 08:40 AM	Flanimal! I enjoyed reading your post. I don't contest the points you mention about Drizzt's personality. (I wouldn't have thought of leaving in the first place...then again I wouldn't have survived my first 5 years). The thing that makes (some of) the other drow more interesting to me than Drizzt is the fact that they are so really different from my own view on the world. What I liked most about the books of Salvatore was that drow society came to life for me. IMO Drizzt isn't a drow. It's a very nice man, but when reading about him I can't stop thinking "this is a human born in the wrong body". His upbringing makes him a bit strange, but in his heart it's just a human. I probably would have enjoyed a trilogy about Jarlaxle even more than I have enjoyed reading the "Drizzt 6-7-ology" I have no intention to troll, start a flame war or whatever. This is just my opinion.
Endur_Stonehelm 10-30-03, 02:58 PM	My stats for Drizzt. The FRCS Drizzt stats don't make much sense to me. Drizzt Do’Urden, level 27 Ranger Epic Ranger Regular Feats: 7: Improved Initiative, Daylight Adaptation(FRCS), Twin Sword Style(FRCS), Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Improved Critical: Scimitar, Power Attack, Quickdraw Ranger virtual feats: two weapon fighting, improved 2wf, greater 2wf; track, endurance Epic Feats: Bane of Enemies Death of Enemies Dire Charge Perfect Two Weapon Fighting Two-Weapon Rend Str 13 Dex 25 Con 15 Int 17 Wis 17 Chr 14 HP: 166 AC: 25 (27 vs. one opponent) Initiative: +11 Skill Ranks (doesn’t include characteristic bonuses): Survival: 30 Balance 10 Climb 15 Handle Animal 15 Hide 20 Jump 15 Knowledge Nature 10 Listen 30 Move Silently 20 Ride 10 Search 20 Spot 30 Use Rope 5 Tumble 10 Sense Motive 5 Diplomacy 5 Favored Enemies: Demons, Giants, Orcs, Goblinoids, Drow, Dragons, Humans. Demons: +6, Dragons: +4, Drow: +6, Giants: +4 Goblinoids, Humans, Orcs: +2 IcingDeath: +3 Frost DemonBane Scimitar Twinkle: +3 Defending Scimitar +5 Mithril ChainShirt Bracers of the Blinding Strike: worn on the ankles, equivalent to Boots of Speed Animal Companion: The black panther Guenhwyvar, a friend and loyal companion to Drizzt. Guen understands Elven (drow), Common, and Undercommon. Leopard stats with +12 Hit Dice, +14 AC, +6 Str, Int 11, SR 32. extra feats and skills for increased hit dice. Full Attack: 4 attacks with IcingDeath and 4 attacks with Twinkle IcingDeath: +28/+23/+18/+13. Damage 1-6 +1-6 frost +4 + favored enemy bonus Twinkle: +28/+23/+18/+13. Damage 1-6 + 3 + favored enemy bonus. Saving throws Fort +16 Reflex +22 Will +12
Masakado 10-30-03, 03:06 PM	This thread said "Everyone's Favorite Dark Elf," yet I see no mention of the super slinky, ultra-beautiful, Qilue Veladorn anywhere. I am disgusted...
Faraer 10-30-03, 03:16 PM	'Drizzt should be high-level because he's cool.' No. My favourite drow character is Eclavdra, by some way.
Masakado 10-30-03, 03:25 PM	Originally posted by Faraer My favourite drow character is Eclavdra, by some way. I was going to say Eclavdra Eilserv, but she's not FR & I tried to keep this in house.
Yokinobu 10-30-03, 04:34 PM	I first heard of Drizzt before I was really into D&D, while 3rd edition was just over the horizon. I was playing Baldur's Gate, the PC game, while at Candlekeep some guard said, "I could take Drizzt with both my arms tied behind my back." I asked my friend who Drizzt was and he told me that Drizzt was a character in the game. At that point in time I knew nothing about the drow other than the fact that they were generally evil elves. When I got Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn is when I got interested in Drizzt after he helped my kill Bohdi. It was then that I decided to see what the novels about him were like when I ordered and read The Icewind Dale Trilogy, The Dark Elf Trilogy, and the Legacy of the Drow(which I never finished). I found that after reading those books that I would often times forget that Drizzt's race and see only his personality. This guy, who met a human that would teach him the way of the ranger, and befriended a dwarf, a halfing, a human woman, and helped redeem a human barabarian. I'm sure some of you dislike Drizzt because he is statistcally powerful or because he doesn't have "style" or maybe some of you dislike Drizzt because so many others like him. But I'll tell you, I like him because of his experiences, his attitude, his resolve, his kindness, and his nature. He's contended with Artemis Entreri, one of the most feared men in Faerun, and he escaped from his deadly home and found his way to the surface. You might say the way he survived on the surface to required as much cunning as in the Underdark. By the way, I don't think that level 16 is too low. Keep in mind that he has an ECL of 18 and that the FRCS came out before The Thousand Orcs did. Keep in mind also that despite what some campaigns may consist of, his adventures aren't simply fighting, fighting, and more fighting. He's had time to rest and he's done other things, so maybe he hasn't progressed as fast as some other characters have(in levels, anyway). Generally I hate playing as drow and I love killing them, but I would never turn down the chance to have the NPC Drizzt Do'Urden helping me to kill them.
Wooly Rupert 10-30-03, 05:19 PM	Originally posted by Yokinobu I'm sure some of you dislike Drizzt because he is statistcally powerful or because he doesn't have "style" or maybe some of you dislike Drizzt because so many others like him. Nah, I'm just tired of hearing of him. He was created to be a sidekick to Wulfgar, not the main character, and yet now he's one of the most popular characters in D&D. One trilogy is good. Two trilogies is okay. But how many books has he been in, now? I'm just ready for some other character to take the spotlight for a while. And also, even though he's not jumped the shark yet, it does get a little tiresome seeing him dance out of any bad situation. I don't dislike Drizzt. He's a cool character. I'm just ready for the next cool character to be intro'ed to the Realms.
Snog_Boggen 10-30-03, 05:50 PM	Fair enough, fair enough. I like to see that people actually dislike him. I like him, but far too many deify him. I was just talking about like 5 more levels to give him more of an edge. I imagine a lot of people like sticking him into their campaigns, and if you can kick Drizzts ass...well that's actually kind of disheartening.
Mirtek 10-30-03, 05:51 PM	Drizzt is certainly high level enough the way he currently is. I could even easily imagine him being 2 level lower Originally posted by Yokinobu that the FRCS came out before The Thousand Orcs did. AFAIK while being released later, The Thousand Orcs still plays before the FRCS timeline. And also don't forget that 1,000 orcs are most likely 1,000 first level warrios, which hardly give any XP at all to Drizzt. Level 16 is incredibly high level and only because there are some supermen/womens with epic level running around, there's no need to make everyone munchkinlevel The reason why Drizzt only rarely meets someone who's a challenge to him is because most people never raise past 5th level. It Drizzt or Artemis kill 20 enemy swordsmen in an awesome display of battle skill, always keep im mind that these guys are to 99% all below 3rd level
Wooly Rupert 10-30-03, 06:06 PM	Originally posted by Snog_Boggen Fair enough, fair enough. I like to see that people actually dislike him. I like him, but far too many deify him. I was just talking about like 5 more levels to give him more of an edge. I imagine a lot of people like sticking him into their campaigns, and if you can kick Drizzts ass...well that's actually kind of disheartening. I think Elminster is worse for being deified by people... He's someone else I'm tired of seeing in the spotlight.
Sirius_Black 10-30-03, 09:12 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert And also, even though he's not jumped the shark yet, it does get a little tiresome seeing him dance out of any bad situation. Hasn't jumped the shark yet???? :uh-huh: He's jumped it, circled around, and came back for seconds. :D
Wooly Rupert 10-30-03, 09:59 PM	Nah, I don't think he's gone quite far enough to jump the shark. Not yet, anyway -- I've not read the newest novel yet.
Talaeden_Denthiir 11-03-03, 07:18 PM	I like Drizzt. Why? Not because I think he's uber. Not because I think he can kick everybody's tail, but because of his strength of character in the face of overwhelming diversity. I agree with Yokinobu wholeheartedly (Go-shinsetsu ni domo arigato gozaimashta) :) Also, as for his game stats, I aslo don't like WotC making Twinkle +2, etc. All they need to do is add a CR adjustment for the extra gear like Tom Costa did for the Companions of the Hall Write-up. I aslo agree that Drizzt's levels should be different. But what I think some of you are forgetting is that since he has levels in three fighting classes (Ftr/Bbn/Rgr), none of which are favored classes for male dark elves, he has a whopping -40% XP penalty!!!!! Still, I guess I would peg him as NOT epic (since I haven't seen any oif this in the novels), yet 20th level. Probably Bbn2 (according to the novels, I think he would most definately have Uncanny Dodge), Ftr12 (since this seems to be what most sources say, and he WOULD have the feats), Rgr6 ( as I've only seen him use a 1st level ranger spell in the novels). I'm working on his stats, I'll try to post them soon. :angel:
Zanan 11-03-03, 07:48 PM	Malice do'Urden :ayyyy!: and Zeerith Q'Xorlarrin :bow: :devil:
Talaeden_Denthiir 11-03-03, 08:36 PM	Zanan, is your post directed at me? I'm confused... :confused:
Darius the Barbarian 11-04-03, 02:19 AM	Originally posted by Talaeden_Denthiir Still, I guess I would peg him as NOT epic (since I haven't seen any oif this in the novels), yet 20th level. Probably Bbn2 (according to the novels, I think he would most definately have Uncanny Dodge), Ftr12 (since this seems to be what most sources say, and he WOULD have the feats), Rgr6 ( as I've only seen him use a 1st level ranger spell in the novels). I'm working on his stats, I'll try to post them soon. :angel: It seems like you share many of my opinions on Drizzt. Here are my versions of Mr. Do'Urden, one with standard power-up items like gloves/belt/etc. and the other one without them. Ftr12/Bbn2/Rgr6 BTW, exactly the way you see him :) I hope you like my writeups: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123737
Talaeden_Denthiir 11-04-03, 04:17 AM	It seems we do kind of have the same idea. Great job on the thread btw :D I especially like how you did the items, and made sure Jarlaxle wasn't just a 17th level fighter, which he is not. Where did Drizzt get the belt of Giant Strength from, what novel? Or is that just something you added in? Since Drizzt started out with stats of Str13 Dex20 Con 15 Int 17 Wis 17 Cha 14, I agree with you that he should definately get the 5 point level bonus (hey, the 2E to 3E conversion guide even says so!!!!!). I just think that 4 should be applied to Dex, making it a 24 (love the nimble armor idea btw), and the remaining point to Str or Con. I'm favoring Str, only because I think he's grown stronger over the years. As for his feats, that's a tough one. Looking at the feats, I see 23 that I could give him, but that's too much for his level/class make up. He'd have 7 from being level 20, 7 from 12 levels of fighter, 4 from ranger (Track, Endurance, Combat Style, Improved Combat Style), and 1 more, his backround feat (I'd give him, Cosmopolitan[Tumble]) :angel: I'd also like to think that he has: Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. Also probably Combat Expertise and Whirlwind attack. Blind-Fight, Daylight Adaptation, Greater Weapon Focus (scimitar), Greater Weapon Specialization (scimitar), Highborn Drow, Improved Critical (scimitar), Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Twin Sword Style, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Weapon Specialization (scimitar), I agree with. That's 3 over the limit. How do we fix the problem? :( and P.S. - According to Richard Baker: RE: The two-weapon feats--the Player's Guide version of Twin Sword Style grants a shield bonus, not an armor bonus, so it won't stack with Two-Weapon Defense. So we have to do something with this as well.
Zanan 11-04-03, 04:29 AM	Originally posted by Talaeden_Denthiir Zanan, is your post directed at me? I'm confused... :confused: :D No, it is most certainly directed towards the topic of this thread. :D
Darius the Barbarian 11-04-03, 04:35 AM	As for the belt, he didn't get it in the novels. Like I said, I posted two different versions of Drizzt in that thread - the first one is basically inspired by Dragon issues 302 and 312 where War of the Spider Queen heroes got some juicy writeups not taking the (IMO useless and making CR inaproppriate) NPC wealth cap into account. The value of their equipment is really high there, and beside their "iconic" items, they also received the standard power-up stuff just in order to make them a proper threat according to their CRs, namely belts, gloves, amulets, rings, etc. I did the same thing in my writeups, giving Drizzt, Jar and Arty some typical items enhancing their overall efficiency and appropriate to their levels, in addition to their gear acquired in the novels. I also posted a version without any trinkets in one of the replies in my thread. I nerfed some of our heroes' iconic items a bit and removed all the power-up, CR-adjusting stuff that wasn't clearly mentioned in the novels. Concerning Drizzt's feats, I'm trying to take novels into account but also optimize our drow mechanically. For instance, WWA or Spring Attack are quite useless in his case. He drew his combat efficiency mainly from his precision and the sheer number of blows. Spring Attack isn't really a good choice for a TWF-oriented fighter, IMHO. I think that the set of feats I gave "my" Drizzt is actually quite adequate considering novels but also mechanically strong. BTW, I'm glad to see you seem to like my humble writeups on the whole :) EDIT: yea, I also read Rich's reply on TSS. I think we can either drop TWD or leave them both as they are and simply subtract 1 point from Drizzt's AC vs one opponent. That's what I did on my home boards - TWD vs all opponents, TSS (but no TWD) vs one. Hmm, IIRC, I also had grapple mod wrong while raging in Drizzt's writeup, I'm going to correct both stats now.
Talaeden_Denthiir 11-04-03, 04:55 AM	Ok, i see now about the items. I think what we should do is kind of combine the 'Items Rich Drizzt' with the 'Depleated Items Drizzt' and come up with a happy medium, no? I do like what you are doing so far. As for his feats, I like your selection, and agree with the angle you are working from, since he prefers many strikes, hitting fast. I guess having multiple attacks from the two-weapon style is akin to having whirlwind attack, yet whirlwind attack is at the highest BAB, while the two-waepon fighting style goes down by 5. As a side note, I've never had a character with Whirlwind attack, but with Drizzt, it kind of makes since to follow that feat progression since he seems to dart in and out of reach in the novels when fighting; more akin to hit and run quick strikes, I guess. Also, if i had my way, i'd make scimitars weapon finesseable. Why? He's a Dex fighter, all the way. As to skills, do you see Drizzt having a higher Tumble than Artemis? I do. I also see Artemis having max ranks in Disguise. As to do I like your write ups? they kick a$$ dude! ( are we aloud to write that?):angel:
Darius the Barbarian 11-04-03, 05:21 AM	Skills are a pretty vague and open issue. Drizzt's Tumble vs Arty's Tumble - hmm, both gave us some stunning displays of that, it's damn hard to decide who should have a higher rank :) Arty has many skills and his Rog levels are not that numerous so he doesn't really have a truckload of skill points at his disposal, compared to the number of skills he should definitely have at reasonable efficiency level. I tried to make his skill layout somewhat balanced - Disguise might be one of his major skills but so are Move Silently, Hide and many others. Heh, he's just too skilled, too gifted :) I don't think we should follow the WWA path in case of Drizzt though. Here's why: WWA lets you make attacks at your highest BAB, vs all opponents in your reach but it limits you to one attack against one opponent. Drizzt has 7 attacks from his TWF progression so WWA simply doesn't make sense here. Surrounded by 7 opponents? I don't think so :) Against less numerous but more potent foes, WWA is flat out useless - it only works against multiple, probably weak adversaries - something that GTWF handles in an equally efficient way. Just between us, I consider WWA a pretty weak feat even for 1 weapon fighters but shhh.... many people seem to like it :angel:
Talaeden_Denthiir 11-04-03, 05:47 AM	Yeah, you've got a good point on the skills. As for feats though, since Twin Sword Style & Two-Weapon Defense don't stack anymore, licks pick one, give him that, and to add insult to injury (to Drizzt's foes, of course ;) ) let's give him Superior Two-Weapon Fighting, hehehe:D Well, that's all for now, it's 4:43 am here in hellishly cold WisCONSIN, and I've got to work tomorrow, so I'd better be getting to bed soon. Have a nice morning and nice talking to you. I'll post later... :cloud9:
Straploknight 11-04-03, 10:21 PM	Hmm.... no mention of Soluafein and no lesbo buff bunny drow :sad: Cheeseville is already hellishly cold Tal, you only make me that much happier it looks like there is gonna be another fine southern Va winter. Hopefully it wont be turkey in the oven on christmas day, but steaks on the grill.
Straploknight 11-04-03, 10:23 PM	Hmm.... no mention of Soluafein and no lesbo buff bunny drow :sad: Cheeseville is already hellishly cold Tal, you only make me that much happier it looks like there is gonna be another fine southern Va winter. Hopefully it wont be turkey in the oven on christmas day, but steaks on the grill.
ElGrecoETAC 11-05-03, 07:02 AM	Originally posted by Talaeden_Denthiir All they need to do is add a CR adjustment for the extra gear like Tom Costa did for the Companions of the Hall Write-up. I aslo agree that Drizzt's levels should be different. Can anyone please direct me to this product in any way?
Jon the Smith 11-05-03, 07:12 AM	I don't like Drizzt, because he is overexposed and overused. Sojourn, exile, homeland, great books. Icewind dale 3logy, fun, after that too much of the same. My problem with Drizzt is not with himself per se, but with the way WotC handled the books. Favorite Darkelf? my own ofcourse, SiNafay Illistyn, wizardess extraordinare, alignement i haven't got a clue yet.
Talaeden_Denthiir 11-05-03, 08:22 PM	Here it is ElGreco, enjoy! :D http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lonedrowstats
PhilCW 11-05-03, 09:52 PM	Much like fanimal discussed, the "problem" with Drizzt is his popularity. The chracter itself is fine, what gets on my nerves at least is the proliferation of "drow are not necessarily evil". It's inerresting to fight a stereotype, but in this case has gone past ground breaking to an anti-stereotype. Which in itself has become a stereotype. Drizzt as a character = good Drizzt with the near limitless clones = dull
Saasiel 11-06-03, 02:06 AM	E'tii'stil Shadowsil's (ES') [3.0e] Drizzt, Artemis, and Jarlaxle. Just scroll down to where you can peruse their statistics. Faerunian NPCs Errata - Page 1 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44554&perpage=30&pagenumber=1) E'tii'stil Shadowsil's (ES') [3.5e] Drizzt ver. 3.5e Artemis Entreri and Drizzt Do'Urden (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116412) E'tii'stil Shadowsil's (ES') [3.5e] Icingdeath and Twinkle Icingdeath and Twinkle (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127849)
ElGrecoETAC 11-06-03, 04:05 AM	Thank you, Talaeden. :)