Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 09:05 PM	I'm curious, folks, how you handle "Evil" religions in the Realms. The faiths of Talos, Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal, Cyric, etc. Do you have them operate openly or are they all underground or in cities controlled by them? Do they ever operate openly in "goodly" territories and how do they get their dogma to appeal to people?
meto30 10-25-07, 11:13 PM	Church of Tiamat is quiet open in my campaign. The temples are great buildings in the open, and are designed to inspire fear into the people looking at them. The same holds for the Church of Bane. Bane is god of tyranny after all, and what use is tyranny if it is not the obvious power? Zhentarim operate on two fronts, as spies plotting to destroy good, and as a giant evil-aligned army ready to march and lay havoc.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 11:46 PM	Anyone own the White Wolf Ravenloft Gazeteers? One of my favorites is the Church of the Lawgiver, which is the Church of Bane's version in Ravenloft. It's a Faith that teaches absolute obedience to one's rulers will be rewarded and that all crime must be severely punished. I definitely found this very believeable. If I were to redo Maztica, I'd have the Church of Bane being very popular down there and converting the natives by the hundreds. Bane is, however, a religion that's severely frowned upon in most portions of my Realms. Oddly, Shar and Cyric aren't. Of course, my version of Cyricism has nothing to do with canon. It's a combination of Thulsa Doom's religion from Conan the Barbarian (Hippie pleasant exterior, evil rotten interior) along with the worst aspects of evangelism and cult like behavior. What is Cyric's faith? For the lay worshippers, it's whatever makes you feel good! Cyric is a permissable God! He believes that we must allow ourselves to enjoy life and do what we feel is right! In the meantime, guarantee your place in Heaven by giving up your worldly possessions (Oh, you want your daughter back? I'm sure that can be arranged...for a price). Cyricist priests say an extremely large amount but one would be severely hard pressed to actually know what the Hell they're for or against other than themselves (and Cyric). They're VERY good at playing on the popular moods of the time and the first to advocate burning or slaughtering the people the populous already hate. The worst part? It's a disgustingly popular religion. In the Realms it goes Chauntea, Lathander, Tyr, Cyric.
KismetRose 10-26-07, 03:46 AM	I imagine that people worship or at least offer prayers to gods like Talos, Beshaba, and Talona quite openly - because they are begging for those gods not to bring disaster on them. The clergy of those gods, on the other hand, aren't always public because they're behind plots and dirty deeds. For the most part, though, I take evil gods on a place-by-place basis. Some places are more corrupt than others. I don't see Shar's worship being open. I mean, she is the goddess of secrets. She's more likely to be behind the worship of some other figure than out in the open.
Fabius Maximus 10-26-07, 09:39 AM	Shar is the negation of all existence, too. It's quite logical that no one wants a temple of her in a city. The Church of Tiamat is a good example of an evil cult grounded in a larger community. She has LN clerics who are not the hard-headed "obey-or-die" guys. For an example, read "The Alabaster Staff". There is a cleric of Tiamat who opposes the evil tendencies of the Church in Messemprar (I think).
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 12:56 PM	I doubt Shar advertises "Yes, mine is the end of everything" She was quite popular in Calisham and there was no indication that they were all Apocalypse cultists.
johnkretzer 10-26-07, 02:14 PM	Here is how I treat the evil religions in the world... Bane: is obvious in areas where the church is in control it is open...in areas where it doesn't it is underground and is attempting to gain control. Cyric: Is mostly underground except the one in Hill's Edge. Lathander: I um treat him as being slowly corrupt by his self-rightous attitude and pride, and his general attitude the ends justify the means. He is getting a strong following from some evil followers of late...but his church is still considered good so they are usualy open Malar: Hidden though sometimes he gains sway over small communities. Mask: Hidden...(duh). Shar: always well hidden. She is the goddess of secrets...she even has decoy hidden temples. Talos(also Auril, Umberlee, Talona, and other deities people will pray to to stay away.): These gods are rarely worshipped openly(except for some races) but there are open shrines in areas where people are threaten by their porfolios. These shrines are often even staffed by non-evil clerics of these deities. Beshaba:Is open in some place with a moraly grey outlook though even in good places one can find shrines to ward off her influences. Gargauth:I always secret and operates though fronts. Loviatar: Is open in some place, and secret in others.
johnkretzer 10-26-07, 02:15 PM	I doubt Shar advertises "Yes, mine is the end of everything" She was quite popular in Calisham and there was no indication that they were all Apocalypse cultists. Yeah but if I had a secret I wanted kept I wouldn't go to a open temple...that just seems not right...I would think her other portfolios would keep it underground. Also you are forgetting eons of Selune churches pointing out the Shar is evil.
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 02:42 PM	Oh, I have no doubt a lot of churches point out she's evil. However, she just seems like a goddess that could get away with prostetylizing.
johnkretzer 10-26-07, 03:01 PM	Oh, I have no doubt a lot of churches point out she's evil. However, she just seems like a goddess that could get away with prostetylizing. The problem is that she is isn't the one doing it her priest are. And while a few or 99% of her priest might be able to pull it off that 1% messing it up would cause problems. Or even the actions of adventures exposing her(or Cyric) churchs would blow this out of the water. While Cyric is new enough to try this risky of a plan I think Shar would be wise enough not to try this. Because it all hinges on her priest remaining faithful. Once word gets out it could see a bear total destruction of her churches and her plans. It is better for her to work in secret and well behind the scenes. Also just curious how does Cyric in your world competes with faiths like Lliira and Sharess who dogma is for the most part is 'have fun' without the lose of your wordly possession or kidnapping daughters?
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 04:11 PM	It is better for her to work in secret and well behind the scenes. Actually, you gave a good argument to do the exact opposite. If Shar wants a strong clergy then it should be public, open, and hiding an evil interior since one or two bad seeds is far less likely to be damaging than a cult like atmosphere. Also just curious how does Cyric in your world competes with faiths like Lliira and Sharess who dogma is for the most part is 'have fun' without the lose of your wordly possession or kidnapping daughters? Both Churchs hate Cyric with a passion of a thousand supernovas. Cyric takes something beautiful and that's Fun/Sex before turning it into mindless self-indulgence with no actual enlightenment but instead just self-destructive excess. Sharess may be the god of Sex, Drugs, and Rock'n'roll but she's not the goddess of addiction, sloth, or gluttony. Besides, Cyric's church is mostly about breaking down morality rather than actual pleasure. If it came across a conservative community, it'd no doubt go after it with a different tactic that would probably more resemble a twisted version of Calvinism or fundamentalism like "You're already saved by Cyric and a member of the glorious good. Whatever you do is good and pure while whatever the Other guy does isn't." Mostly, however, Cyric attempts to latch onto the week minded with naked self-indulgence. Plenty of times his clerics also frame other clergy for crimes. Murder, Embezzlement, sexual deviancy, and so on seem to occur a great deal around Cyricists but mostly in those they want to get rid of.
johnkretzer 10-26-07, 04:30 PM	Actually, you gave a good argument to do the exact opposite. If Shar wants a strong clergy then it should be public, open, and hiding an evil interior since one or two bad seeds is far less likely to be damaging than a cult like atmosphere. 3 things... 1)How is a godess of secrets, lost night, darkness able to be open about these things? 2)Actualy a hidden sercretive clergy is just as strong if not stronger then a public one. 3) I think you are underestiminating the stregnth of the cell structure of Shar's faith. Expose one...the others are hidden... Expose the truth of her open church they all suffer. Both Churchs hate Cyric with a passion of a thousand supernovas. Cyric takes something beautiful and that's Fun/Sex before turning it into mindless self-indulgence with no actual enlightenment but instead just self-destructive excess. Actualy I think you miss my point...both faiths wouldn't hate Cyric because he wouldn't be able to compete with them on a large scale. Though I guess he can appeal to the darker side of pleasure though even there he would get tough competion from Sharess(I always veiw has more CN myself) who appeals to that crowd along with Shar and Loviator. Again it isn't that people would hate him..it that he wouldn't even be a blip on their radar.
Another Gnome 10-26-07, 04:36 PM	I see most evil deities (or at least their highest-ranking representatives) smart enough to tell that they need to show at least some measure of moderation in public to keep attracting new followers. Thulsa Doom analogy mentioned earlier is pretty good, if though not all faiths are quite that double-faced. Loviatar can afford being fairly open about what goes on when the lights go out. There's plenty of interest in the faith among bored and decadent nobles, and if a few people occasionally get killed when things get too rough, a few coins can easily brush the incident under the carpet. People might even participate in a religious ceremony during the night in a Loviatan festhall, and in the morning just think they were having a wild time. Talos, Umberlee, and Auril have the easiest time, literally being forces of nature, so the mainstream population just has to accept them as part of their everyday lives. Of course the priesthood in civilized areas can't just go killing people (and have no reason to do so either), but if someone goes and flaps his gums at a priest of Talos only to get struck by lightning from a clear sky, nobody is going to question what just happened. Heck, a lone priest of Talos maintaining a shrine in a small village and collecting tithes and other gifts in exchange of prayers to the Stormlord could well be a respected member of the community, especially if there are no "good" priests within miles. Mask and Shar keep a low profile by definition, so not much to say there. Bane has his areas of influence in the east, and elsewhere he's pretty much nonexistent. Not much point worshipping god of tyranny in Waterdeep where the people you can actually tyrannize can be counted with one hand and you're already missing fingers. Cyric in contrast has followers all over the place in scattered cults each interpreting their god their own way. He's loathed, but not so much feared, and both the god and his followers are the butt of every joke in taverns... at least until the joker and his family is found mutilated at their home. Which probably gives pause to the community for a week or two. At most. Malar... those guys are put to death on sight. No questions, no exceptions, and that's the way they would prefer it, if anyone ever managed to get an answer. Followers of Malar are basically Reavers from Firefly/Serenity, or at best like Hannibal Lecter. Gargauth and Beshaba aren't worshipped in the open, mostly getting prayers from people swearing vengeance or wishing ill to others. Neither faith is so much outlawed but rather simply ignored, and visiting a shrine or other place dedicated to these gods would be like going to see a fortune-teller. Talona's following has little power in most places but they like to beat the drum about themselves. That causes people to give them wide berth and even pay protection money (likely a few coins or things tossed at the feet of the priest from across the street to avoid getting anywhere near), but also makes them easy targets for witch-hunts if a community is struck by plague. Velsharoon can hide behind Mystra's skirt, which is just what he does, and his followers follow suite. They may push limits now and then, but won't dare to cross them, at least if there's any risk of getting caught. Yeah. I think I'll skip the other pantheons for now...
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 05:21 PM	Actualy I think you miss my point...both faiths wouldn't hate Cyric because he wouldn't be able to compete with them on a large scale. Don't you mean the reverse? How would the Churches of Llirra and Sharess compete with a Greater God of Illusion, Lies, and Intrigue? In towns that would never have Churches to Sharess, Cyric would probably find thousands of followers because they possess a godlike charisma that can charm even LG old ladies to evil. Ever since Cyric's religion appeared, it's been consistently the fastest growing religion in the Realms. Though I guess he can appeal to the darker side of pleasure though even there he would get tough competion from Sharess(I always veiw has more CN myself) who appeals to that crowd along with Shar and Loviator. A simple image for you. A happy, smiling, loving family hanging an elf with the rest of the town looking on contentedly. The power of evil exists in the hearts of all men and Cyric knows how to make it grow. It's not a faith of indulgence but CORRUPTION that finds a indulgence to be a great tool. And Sharess is the Goddess of Drinking, Sensual Pleasures, Compassion, and Empathy in my games. I've cemented her as a Goddess of Good. Re: Shar 1)How is a godess of secrets, lost night, darkness able to be open about these things? Shar is the Goddess of Night and happily keeps her doors open to the poor, disadvanted, lost, and purposeless in the world. "We have nothing to hide." Which makes Selunites, Tyrites, and so on all the more hateful because they KNOW they're up to something. 2)Actualy a hidden sercretive clergy is just as strong if not stronger then a public one. Shar and Cyric would disagree, they have much more power for being secret cabals WITHIN vastly powerful groups in my game. Though Cyric's faith is far larger than Shars. Velsharoon, on the other hand, handles most of the twisted abominations and ceremonies in my games. His is a total cult thing. Ditto Gargauth, though Gargauth's worshipers are far higher class. 3) I think you are underestiminating the stregnth of the cell structure of Shar's faith. Expose one...the others are hidden...Expose the truth of her open church they all suffer. How?
johnkretzer 10-26-07, 05:51 PM	Don't you mean the reverse? How would the Churches of Llirra and Sharess compete with a Greater God of Illusion, Lies, and Intrigue? In towns that would never have Churches to Sharess, Cyric would probably find thousands of followers because they possess a godlike charisma that can charm even LG old ladies to evil. Ever since Cyric's religion appeared, it's been consistently the fastest growing religion in the Realms. Um why do Cyric followers have a 'godlike' charisma that can charm old LG ladies to do evil? Also I thought your Realms was all about humanism...I guess that doesn't extends to the NPCs. Also actualy it has been getting smaller since he has lost more domains then gained them. A simple image for you. A happy, smiling, loving family hanging an elf with the rest of the town looking on contentedly. The power of evil exists in the hearts of all men and Cyric knows how to make it grow. It's not a faith of indulgence but CORRUPTION that finds a indulgence to be a great tool. And Sharess is the Goddess of Drinking, Sensual Pleasures, Compassion, and Empathy in my games. I've cemented her as a Goddess of Good. So why would good all neutral people go over to Cyric when a better alternative are there? Sorry I don't extend a godlike charisma to any mortal. So I guess I am having trouble seeing it. That is great but that is Lliira(you know all those feasthalls marked on the maps though out every edition, Those were renamed by the prudish TSR ands WotC from the orginal brothels...which Lliira is the goddess of). The fact is you are imposing western culture morals on thing like sex and etc when cleary this isn't true in the Realms as Lliira has always been there as a good goddess. Though it is your Realms if you want to do this go right a head. Though now I understand how it can happen in your Realms. Re: Shar Shar is the Goddess of Night and happily keeps her doors open to the poor, disadvanted, lost, and purposeless in the world. "We have nothing to hide." Which makes Selunites, Tyrites, and so on all the more hateful because they KNOW they're up to something. And since these churches already do this in those communities for alot longer then Shar has and have always acted this way I guess the NPCs just ignore them when they publicly attack Shar? Also lets face it Shar temples would be under constant seige by the good churches. Which is why being open is a bad thing for both faiths. Tyr would launch crusades against these open churches with propably backing from other churches. See what I don't get is why in your game the priest of the good gods don't get any respect(or just be taken at face value) as the priest of evil deities? It just seem forced somehow. Also if there is evil in every man's heart there is also good...so why can't the good gods be as successful in bringing it out...also you do relize that what you just described is nothing to do with humanism...I mean humanism(I believe) is relying on one self so how does any god get the amount of influence over any mortal as you seem to portray Cyric has?
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 06:09 PM	Um why do Cyric followers have a 'godlike' charisma that can charm old LG ladies to do evil? Also I thought your Realms was all about humanism...I guess that doesn't extends to the NPCs. Also actualy it has been getting smaller since he has lost more domains then gained them. Because hes the God of Lies, Illusion, and Intrigue. Now, usually this doesn't amount to more than Enthrall, Charm Person or Animal, and liberal Cyric's Suggestion spells but combined with their ample Bluff and Diplomacy scores with High Charisma. The majority of Cyricist priests find that they have a great number of followers in short numbers of times. I've already hinted to the fact that they use ample amounts of smear campaigns, muck racking, playing on sympathy, and waving the Bloody Shirt to win converts. Do Cyricists ALWAYS succeed? :censored: no! The other gods are quite competent and their clergy is full of very talented individuals. However, the Cyricists have gotten ENOUGH followers as always that they've been showing a steady increase all this time with the exception of events like the fall of Zhentil Keep. Frankly, no other god makes as ample use of dirty tactics and so little care for one's followers as Cyric and that's what he gets. Cyric wants quantity rather than quality. So why would good all neutral people go over to Cyric when a better alternative are there? Sorry I don't extend a godlike charisma to any mortal. So I guess I am having trouble seeing it. Because Cyric is the God that Believes EXACTLY like you. It turns out that you don't have to make any changes to your life, because Cyricism is already your faith. You just don't know it. *whisper whisper* Of course, I wish someone would do something about those god damned elves. Damned filthy pointy ears that steal our gold and rape our women. Does Tyr advocate doing something about em? I thought not. That is great but that is Lliira(you know all those feasthalls marked on the maps though out every edition, Those were renamed by the prudish TSR ands WotC from the orginal brothels...which Lliira is the goddess of). The fact is you are imposing western culture morals on thing like sex and etc when cleary this isn't true in the Realms as Lliira has always been there as a good goddess. Dude, what the Nine Hell are you talking about? Is there a point in there? One of our party clerics is a Priestess of Sharess and she has sex 9/10 days with her Temple very much like Firefly's Companions (educated, beautiful, sensual courtesans) Hell, she can only regain spells if she has sex every day. Though it is your Realms if you want to do this go right a head. Though now I understand how it can happen in your Realms. Actually, I'm pretty damn sure there's something seriously wrong with your interpretation of my games. I'm just not sure what. Hedonism is actually something quite beneficial in my games and welcomed as a valid philosophical choice. I actually have incorporated a lot from the Sensates into the Sharess faith. Seek enlightenment through pleasure. And since these churches already do this in those communities for alot longer then Shar has and have always acted this way I guess the NPCs just ignore them when they publicly attack Shar? Average person: "They're ALWAYS condemning this god and that." And Shar's been here since the beginning. Frankly, CYRIC is the new god that all the various faiths all band together to condemn, which is why he and his men have to stoop to such dirty tactics to win. Also lets face it Shar temples would be under constant seige by the good churches. Five Selunites once attacked a Sharran temple in our games and killed the Priest. The High Priest of Tyr and local Judge then promptly had them all hanged. They were marched through the streets, pelted with rotten fruit, and spit on as murderers. Which they were. See what I don't get is why in your game the priest of the good gods don't get any respect(or just be taken at face value) as the priest of evil deities? It just seem forced somehow. Who says they don't? Cyric's priests are just intelligent, vile, and ruthless individuals whom have no low they won't stoop to in order to spread their religion be it conversion by the sword or framing a Tyrean priest as a pedophile. Shars faith operates openly and claims souls by the old fashioned way of picking up the lost and not breaking the law (except in their most vile and horrible secretive rites) In the heartlands, almost every town no matter how large or small has a Temple to Lathander and he's worshipped in every little village alongside Chauntea. In the Northlands, Tyr is the God of Choice with similar amounts. It's just that Shar and Cyric are pretty vastly worshiped gods in cities and along the Sword Coast and in the Southlands. Freedom of religion is something that's guaranteed by most cities that aren't ruled by Evil Gods. Hell, in CANON Amn, the Selunites/Talonists/Cyricists are an Alliance against the Empire of the Ogre Mages.
AffableDoomwalker 10-26-07, 08:06 PM	I run churches openly for the most part. Greater Deities are 'Greater', after all. I figure it depends on the region, I tend to run a lot of stuff in/around Cormyr, Sembia, and Mistledale, so Banites and the like aren't necessarily welcome, but then again, nobody likes Zhents, not even other Zhents. If I ever ran a session around the Sword Coast, Talos and Umberlee would be very prominent, because any sailor worth his salt knows you want those two happy before you ship off for Boston. Toss in Cyric and Mask for intrigue and thievery and the like. The only evil deities that aren't ever prominent are the "specialist" (racial, ultra-specific portfolio) and/or low-key lessers, I tend to portray those churches as closer to a small cult following than an actual open church anyone can just walk into; Malarites, for example - I've got some Malarites planned in the near future for my players in the woods around Cormanthyr. Should be fun. Anywho, the fact is every deity in the realms is legitimate, if they weren't Ao would snuff them out before they ever had anyone worshiping 'em. You can't storm the gates of a church for no reason, and really, why the hell would you without any specific reason? You risk PO'ing a GOD, the wrath of his/her followers, and the local constabulary to boot. Heck, even a small congregation of Half-Orcs praying to Grummsh is at least tolerated in most places, so long as they respect, or at least abide by the local laws - if some overzealous Moradin-thumping Dwarf decided to go medieval on their asses "just because" you can be sure that (as you had described earlier with the Sharrans) the consequences would be in-line with the general punishment for that sort of behavior.
GothicDan 10-26-07, 08:12 PM	I find it pretty much entirely impossible to interpret Charles' games judging from his posts on here. ;)
johnkretzer 10-26-07, 08:23 PM	It's just that Shar and Cyric are pretty vastly worshiped gods in cities and along the Sword Coast and in the Southlands. Freedom of religion is something that's guaranteed by most cities that aren't ruled by Evil Gods. Actualy in most of cities not ruled by evil deities those evil gods are outlawed. Hell, in CANON Amn, the Selunites/Talonists/Cyricists are an Alliance against the Empire of the Ogre Mages. Actualy I thought it was Selune/Cyricists/Loviator...though I can't find the souce to confirm it or not. Though reading Powers of the Realms it seems that alliance is against the Stingers as the Cyricist are allied with the Empire of Ogre Mages.
MerrikCale 10-26-07, 08:42 PM	Though reading Powers of the Realms it seems that alliance is against the Stingers as the Cyricist are allied with the Empire of Ogre Mages. I believe you are correct as both sides of that war have united in the Stinger conflict. Presumably, they will resume hostilities at some point
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 08:53 PM	Actualy in most of cities not ruled by evil deities those evil gods are outlawed. I'd never allow them to be good, to be honest. That's an evil act. I find it pretty much entirely impossible to interpret Charles' games judging from his posts on here. Well, my suggestions are very different from my actual game. The only divergences I have from canon are. 1. Evil Gods operate openly and publically for the most part. 2. Cyric isn't an idiot. 3. Fzoul is honorable as opposed to a treacherous snake. 4. Kelemvor and Mystra aren't themselves. 5. Sharess is Chaotic GOOD as opposed to borderline neutral. Everything else is pretty much "business as usual" in the Realms. My players don't handle change very well. Honestly, with 5# I should have just used Llirra.
johnkretzer 10-27-07, 05:47 AM	I'd never allow them to be good, to be honest. That's an evil act. Why is it a evil act to make laws that evil gods aren't allowed in a city? I mean they tend to disrupt and corrupt a society. True Cyric could be new enough to get away with it for a time(though remember people do know what the Zhents are about and he was their patron deity and in Darkhold are still is)...but Shar and the others have been around long enough that people know they are evil. 5. Sharess is Chaotic GOOD as opposed to borderline neutral. Honestly, with 5# I should have just used Llirra. Actualy both have their place...Sharess is generaly worshipped in the south and Lliira is generaly worshipped in the north.
MerrikCale 10-27-07, 09:59 AM	4. Kelemvor and Mystra aren't themselves. you mean like they're having bad hair days?
Suin Bahhar 10-27-07, 11:10 AM	I have many open "false" churches of the good gods, who in thruth act for Shar or Gargauth. Lathander has fallen prey to Gargauthian heretics similar to the depiction of the Fallen Pelor, the Burning Hate. Selunes clergy is constantly struggling with exmembers who fall to Shar such as in her lycanthropy war. Some benevolent churches of Selune in remote areas suddenly wipe out all traces of in the village they reside and vanish. Shar knows how to hold secrets and asurp or corrupt clergies like no others. Cyric uses a migrating clergy mostly, with some mostly secret nodes of power (more open mainly in the periferies). They are very adaptable and slick as eels. Bane is out in the open where he can with as large a temple he can build, the greatest army and the largest forge. People tend to flock to this clergies strength for protection. The Fury-Gods can have large Temples for massive appeasement rituals in towns near natural perils. Talona, Loviatar, Beshaba are appeased everywhere people want. They dont neccesarily need temples because of their strong presence of their portfolios in everyday life of Fearuns people.
Charles Phipps 10-27-07, 02:34 PM	Why is it a evil act to make laws that evil gods aren't allowed in a city? I mean they tend to disrupt and corrupt a society. True Cyric could be new enough to get away with it for a time(though remember people do know what the Zhents are about and he was their patron deity and in Darkhold are still is)...but Shar and the others have been around long enough that people know they are evil. This is where my "suggestions" vs. the fact that I run a canon game may have confused you. Despite my constant selling up Epic confrontations between mortals and the whims of gods, the PCs are left sorta alone in this. While the PCs are generally aware that the wicked gods are "evil" and very malevolent, the majority of people tend to have trouble believing in them as physical entities. Shar is the Goddess of the Night, Loss, and Sorrow. Her Clergy offering their depressing philosophy about and leading people to nihilist veneration of their goddess. But 99/100 Sharists never break the law and are there to deal with broken hearts and offer cures like the other gods. People can easily conceive of clergy being evil but despite the TOT, a lot of people tend to think of the gods as forces beyond humanity. Persecuting a man because he worships Bane even if he's law abiding seems to be something that's disingenuous regarding good. Now, Velsharoon could never get away with it because his worship involves undeath and unholy magics but almost every other god could. The only gods being outright forbidden in my polytheistic society are demon worship. Actualy both have their place...Sharess is generaly worshipped in the south and Lliira is generaly worshipped in the north. Noted. you mean like they're having bad hair days? Running an extended High level version of the Avatar Modules, I ended up not thinking it story appropriate that Midnight and Lyonsbane get promoted to godhood when the PCs did all the work. Thus, PCs took Midnight and Kelemvor's place while keeping their names. The gods are effectively identical and I run them effective at their jobs. It's the on-going joke in our campaign that the PCs former henchmen is the Realms ultimate evil. We make Knights of the Dinner Table jokes about it constantly.
johnkretzer 10-27-07, 03:42 PM	This is where my "suggestions" vs. the fact that I run a canon game may have confused you. Despite my constant selling up Epic confrontations between mortals and the whims of gods, the PCs are left sorta alone in this. While the PCs are generally aware that the wicked gods are "evil" and very malevolent, the majority of people tend to have trouble believing in them as physical entities. Shar is the Goddess of the Night, Loss, and Sorrow. Her Clergy offering their depressing philosophy about and leading people to nihilist veneration of their goddess. But 99/100 Sharists never break the law and are there to deal with broken hearts and offer cures like the other gods. People can easily conceive of clergy being evil but despite the TOT, a lot of people tend to think of the gods as forces beyond humanity. Persecuting a man because he worships Bane even if he's law abiding seems to be something that's disingenuous regarding good. Now, Velsharoon could never get away with it because his worship involves undeath and unholy magics but almost every other god could. The only gods being outright forbidden in my polytheistic society are demon worship. Ok I understand what you are saying now. Though in some cities where it is controled by lets say Selune I really don't see Shar being allowed. Though I'll point out if a man is a worshipper of say Bane or Shar(talking about a true believer not somebody who hangs in the temple because they offer great cookies) chances of him being a law abiding citizen is very low. I hope you don't take my questioning the wrong way, personaly if I put up a idea on these boards I like it to be tested by other people... Also if you really want my veiw on Lliira and Sharess just drop me a PM. As both faiths aren't really evil this is not the thread for it.
Charles Phipps 10-27-07, 04:29 PM	Ok I understand what you are saying now. Though in some cities where it is controled by lets say Selune I really don't see Shar being allowed. I certainly understand that, I just take a note that in cities otherwise controlled by good like Waterdeep or Suzail, I still have the freedom of worship guaranteed. Shar's Temples operate and even Bane/Cyric have a place of veneration. They're just not beloved deities and you can expect that the later two are vandalized often (often by each other). Though I'll point out if a man is a worshipper of say Bane or Shar(talking about a true believer not somebody who hangs in the temple because they offer great cookies) chances of him being a law abiding citizen is very low. Bane I'm not so sure of. A cruel, nasty, and bullying police officer is a perfect person to worship the lawgiver while plenty of people will venerate him whom are the poor as well as downtrodden simply because they've been raised to be tyrannized. I always liked Malik because Cyric seemed the perfect god for a merchant who was dishonest and a cheat. In Shar's case, I tend to think the higher you go, the more likely you're performing obscene and debased rites in the basement. I hope you don't take my questioning the wrong way, personaly if I put up a idea on these boards I like it to be tested by other people... No, I understand perfectly and I already had a major opinion of mine (The Nonhuman Deities should go) changed because of the boards here. Also if you really want my veiw on Lliira and Sharess just drop me a PM. As both faiths aren't really evil this is not the thread for it. Please, I'd love to hear them.
Mr_Miscellany 10-28-07, 04:15 AM	I find it pretty much entirely impossible to interpret Charles' games judging from his posts on here. ;) Dan, you always write the best elitist-SPAM. Can it in Troll-flavored glop (a preservative; can be found in abundance as a kind of residue on your keyboard) and sell it in Russia would be my advice. :::::::::::::: Anyway, Let's see, evil faiths.....depends on the region and the plots going on in my campaign. Bane, for example, is widely worshipped and recognized in Zhentil Keep, but you'll not find a Banite in my campaign openly displaying his faith anywhere in Cormyr, save for perhaps the Stonelands. Loviatar: ...I get a kick out of this Goddess. Not only is it a blast to play priests faithful to her, but RPing NPCs of her faith is almost as fun. I use a priestess of Loviatar’s faith when my players are in Waterdeep. They’ve come upon her more than once at the Plinth in Waterdeep at night, where she’s happily flailing away at rich, semi-debauched noblemen (oft of the older variety) seeking to free themselves of suffering of one kind or another, or avoid future suffering. Cyric’s faith is one I’ve just started using and am enjoying quite a bit. I play them off as highly secretive, but willing to trade away that secrecy and the safety it affords just to reach their goals. This is a faith that I like to show as one with lots of infighting and backstabbing. My players like to puzzle out what enemy NPCs are thinking and they remember well when this or that NPC doesn’t work well with his own team (so to speak). In my campaign Cyric’s faith is insidious and dangerously effective at undermining individuals and groups. Beyond that, I’d like to use Umberlee someday and haven’t used Shar much in a while. But hopefully that last will change very soon. ;)
johnkretzer 10-28-07, 12:12 PM	Dan, you always write the best elitist-SPAM. Can it in Troll-flavored glop (a preservative; can be found in abundance as a kind of residue on your keyboard) and sell it in Russia would be my advice. This the kind of thing that I usualy mean about you. You walk in the middle of something that propably came from another thread as a joke and call it elitist-spam. Can I make a suggestion to you for future reference just ignore little comments like that in the future so you don't come off as a elitist yourself. Or since Dan can do nothing it seems but upset you put him on ignore?
GothicDan 10-28-07, 12:52 PM	Dan, you always write the best elitist-SPAM. Can it in Troll-flavored glop (a preservative; can be found in abundance as a kind of residue on your keyboard) and sell it in Russia would be my advice. Wow. Way to misinterpret, Captain. Have you considered seeing a neurologist? I'm sure it would help. In any event, Charles seemed to interpret my statement perfectly as it was meant - that indeed, what he says is VERY different than what he preaches. So I'll say nothing more.