Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pajmage 09-19-03, 09:11 AM	Since, 3e FR is now removed from the Great Wheel and the whole crystal sphere/wildspace/Spelljamming is now invalid as far as FR is concerned. Are Faerie, the Orc homeworld, the Dwarven (Dwarro) homeworld and the Mulhorandi/Untheric Homeworlds now simply other planets in the FR Galaxy? Or are they indeed other planes of existence that make use of the Shadow Plane/Alternate Material Plane option in MotP to traverse to Faerun? (Note: Im assuming that Faerie was the original Elven Homeworld but im not entirely sure that it is)
Morka 09-19-03, 10:13 AM	I think Mulhorandi/Untheric pantheon are not only inspired, but are the egyptian/ babylonian pantheons. Opportunity was offered to those pantheon to expand their followers, and they came on Toril. As for the way they traveled from Earth to Toril, I don't know.
Grognard the Mighty 09-19-03, 10:33 AM	The Forgotten Realms are still attached to multiverse in general, it would simply require far too large a rewrite of realms continuity for it to be otherwise. The current planar make up suggests they are now isolated in many respects, but not a multiverse all to themselves. The new planar make up is likely due to the Lady of Pain's reordering of the multiverse after the events in Die Vecna, Die. In short, the Forgotten Realms were not always as they are now, which explains where some of these deities came from, even though their memories and experinces may have been altered to keep them from knowing it. That's the theory I would use anyway, as it allows the realms to be isolated, yet keeps continuity in place.
Savras 09-19-03, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by Morka I think Mulhorandi/Untheric pantheon are not only inspired, but are the egyptian/ babylonian pantheons. Opportunity was offered to those pantheon to expand their followers, and they came on Toril. As for the way they traveled from Earth to Toril, I don't know. Well, when plague decimated the Imaskar Empire the Artificiers needed more people. So they opened a portal to a diffrent world and drew some people (hundereds of thousands, or even millions of people) through. These people were the Mulan and the Unther. The Imaskari feared the retaliation of the gods of these people, and cast a mighy dweomer that made it impossible for these deities to travel to Faeûn (or, if to be more precise, Realmspace). These deities, however, felt the need and heard the pleas of their faithful across planar boundries, and set in a perilious journy through the Astral Plane (I think). They were guided by Ptah, who later left Faerûn. It is worth to mention that not all deities came (Maat, for one, and there are many others, like H'nom, Atom, Nun, Naunet, Kek, Kekket, Shu, Tephnet, Nut {pron. Noot}), and some deities were killed (Re) or changed (Horus to Horus-Re, and Bast to Sharess). I think the Untheric pantheon tugged along with the Mulhorandi one, though I am unsure. Savras
Mirtek 09-19-03, 01:44 PM	Originally posted by Pajmage Or are they indeed other planes of existence that make use of the Shadow Plane/Alternate Material Plane option in MotP to traverse to Faerun? According to the MotP, the optional rule concerning the plane of shadow is not used in standard D&D. According to the MotP FAQ the optional rule concerning the plane of shadow is not used in the FR campaign either.
Ozar 09-19-03, 01:55 PM	It's like I said, maybe if we ignore the new cosmology, it will just go away. *Plugs ears with fingers* LA LA LA I CANNOT HEAR YOU LA LA LA
Alac Luin 09-20-03, 10:09 PM	I think most of us are ignoring the new cosmology. But they are expanding it in the new FRPG, so it's not going away, yet. As far as spelljamming, I didnt think it was invalid, just not currently supported by WotC.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-22-03, 01:43 AM	Originally posted by Grognard the Mighty The current planar make up suggests they are now isolated in many respects, but not a multiverse all to themselves. The new planar make up is likely due to the Lady of Pain's reordering of the multiverse after the events in Die Vecna, Die. Die Vecna Die is a thorn in the side of Planescape 3e, thats all I'll say on the subject. It had its good points and it had its huge steaming pile of poorly planned points. But I'm somewhat stuck with it. But as far as that relates to FR, I honestly don't think that any events within Planescape (despite DVD not being an actual Planescape module, just partly occuring in Sigil) had an impact for the new FR cosmology. Essentially the new cosmology continues a trend I've noticed of FR as a setting trying to trump other setting both in terms of power and detail and history in everything within itself. And if that overglorification of the realms requires them to spin themselves off from the unfortunate irrellevance that the multiverse at large views Toril with as a backwater prime world, than so be it. When you have canon novels in which a single sphere diety of magic goes to Baator and slaughters millions of Baatezu as an afterthought and through one of her servants effects THE Lord of the 9 Himself, thats the sound of FR jumping the shark and losing any hope of being relevant and coexisting with a cosmology that won't hold it atop a pedestal. And it shouldn't be, but it is apparently. *sigh*
Ozar 09-22-03, 02:02 AM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder When you have canon novels in which a single sphere diety of magic goes to Baator and slaughters millions of Baatezu as an afterthought and through one of her servants effects THE Lord of the 9 Himself, thats the sound of FR jumping the shark and losing any hope of being relevant and coexisting with a cosmology that won't hold it atop a pedestal. And it shouldn't be, but it is apparently. *sigh* They made a novel where someone (Presumably the Simbul?) messed with Azmodeus and did not explode in a horrible death of fiery torment? That is a hundred bazillion kinds of wrong. And Mystra (You did mean Mystra, right?) went to Baator? And her power trip didn't uncermoniously end with her being devoured by the Azmodeus Serpent? That sounds suspiciously like retarded fanfiction.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-22-03, 03:35 AM	*nod* While I personally loathe the 2e 'Guide to Hell' that introduced the idea of Asmodeus as a something.. be it fallen greater diety or primal embodyment of lawful evil in the multiverse, I would have him as 'something greater' than a simple Archfiend. Undefined but certainly incapable of being thwarted by a single mage given a spell by their diety of magic. As you said, 'a hundred bazillion kinds of wrong' *rolls eyes* Hence the new cosmology where it sets up everything FR as automatically better than anything else out there on the planes apparently. *rolls eyes again*
Savras 09-22-03, 04:33 AM	Actually, it was Mystra who transfered Halaster's madness to Asmadeous, no mortal (or Chosen) did so. Savras
Shemeska the Marauder 09-22-03, 05:01 AM	Still, it should have been beyond the scope of her power to do so. A being such as the Lord of the 9th should have been unaffected by such, even the paltry effect it DID have upon him. Come on, this is the being that has ruled Baator for all eternity as far as anyone can tell, and singlehandedly plays off the other Lords of the 9 against one another with disgusting ease. Add to that fact that Asmodeus is rumored to have killed at the least, one true deity, and that the powers who keep domains within Baator at the least stay out of his way and that of the Baatezu in general. A single domain of a power is a paltry thing to an entity that personifies the essence and philosophy of a plane. Even if just an Archdevil, Mystra shouldn't have been able to pull the stunt that she did. To say nothing of the Simbul doing her own personal seige of Avernus. After some of her actions I'm still waiting for her to be roasting on a spit before Bel, Lord of the 1st, somewhere upon the first layer of Baator.
Savras 09-22-03, 06:02 AM	I mostly agree with you. I also find it hard to believe that Halaster's insanity is off, as I read somewhere it is caused by the fact that while in Undermountain, he sees everything in there and hears everything in there, and he also controls (continously) all the portals and the moving portal and also controls (and acts through) a dozen projections. Another wierd thing- Halaster Blackloack, a super-powerful mage battles Nergal. The battle goes like so: Halaster: Fire Finger. Nergal: Sends one of his tentacles (or was it a spell that created a stalacatite) up Halasters bottom. End of combat. Hello! He is a superpowerful Wiz who is known to traverse the planes and an expert on fighting such buggers! Sheesh! [/rant] Savras
Darkmistress 09-22-03, 06:22 AM	Originally posted by Ozar That sounds suspiciously like retarded fanfiction. Sad but true. Really, I've never been able to get over the new cosmology. So as far as I am concerned, the old one stands, and to the pits of Baator with the new one.
Grognard the Mighty 09-22-03, 12:41 PM	Gods in D&D have always been greater than fiends, even the Lords of the Nine and the Abyssal Lords. Even way back in 1e, a god could pretty much stomp all over any of them. The only book that really said othewrwise was that horrific 2e Guide, but most of that was ill-concevied rubbish anyway. The portrayal of Mystra destroying billions of bateezu as an after thought, if it did indeed happen this way, is actually quite accurate. Fiends and fiends lords are absolutely, postively nothing to a true deity, especially a greater power.
Gez 09-22-03, 12:48 PM	And that's not counting the cosmoplanetary messiah Hamsa Manara, who slayed hundreds of thousands of lemures and earthbound demons with mere thoughts... :D (For those who don't get it, I'm referencing the hilarious claims of a now-dead guru of a nigh extinct sect.)
Ozar 09-22-03, 03:32 PM	Originally posted by Grognard the Mighty Gods in D&D have always been greater than fiends, even the Lords of the Nine and the Abyssal Lords. Even way back in 1e, a god could pretty much stomp all over any of them. The only book that really said othewrwise was that horrific 2e Guide, but most of that was ill-concevied rubbish anyway. The portrayal of Mystra destroying billions of bateezu as an after thought, if it did indeed happen this way, is actually quite accurate. Fiends and fiends lords are absolutely, postively nothing to a true deity, especially a greater power. I disagree. If Mystra can do what she did, why not destroy all of the Baatezu? Why not destroy all of the Lords of the Nine and destroy the Nine Hells itself? Hell, if there's just a bunch of puny Archdevils running the show, let's just have Mystra destroy the concept of Lawful Evil itself! But let's not stop there! Since the powers that embody the aspects of the multiverse are nothing to gods, let's just have Mystra kill the Lady of Pain! See where I'm (Sarcastically) going with this? Gods in D&D are not like the God of the Judeo-Christian faith. They are not omnipotent, and should not have the power to do as they please as Mystra is written as having done. The reason Azmodeus has likely been respected and avoided by other powers (At least before this disgraceful novel) is likely similar to why no one bothered the Lady of Pain after everyone saw what she did to Aoskar. Realistically, Mystra should have wound up right next to him.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-22-03, 04:21 PM	Oh now that would be amusing, to see Mystra flayed alive by Her Serenity's shadow and floating lifeless in the Astral. Aoskar likely was neither the first or the last... But in any case, perhaps its just something about FR and the strict adherants of FR. Dunno. Some of the posts remind me of the mindset of a player in an FR/Planescape game run by a friend of mine. This particular player was playing a drow chosen of Mystra, and both the character and the player alike were convinced that Mystra was the ultimate authority of magic in all of the planes in their entirety. He was so convinced of this that his goals included the creation of an elven mythal inside Sigil. Ignore that it couldn't be done, he wasn't going to let that get in his way, and he firmly believed he could and that The Lady would simply allow this to happen because 'magic is universal, and Mystra controls magic, what could The Lady do about it?'. *chuckle* Neither player nor character was taken aback when while walking through Sigil the PC's witnissed Her Dread Majesty float across the street before them a short ways, then pause and turn to look at the drow Chosen of Mystra. He wasn't phased in the least at having the attention of The Lady. The DM gave him that warning, and even explained to him what attempting to bring that much influence of a deity, in this case Mystra, into the City of Doors would do. I believe that the following was said, sadly, 'Maze me? Let her try, that spell is one of my Chosen spell immunities.' It would have been amusing to see the character mazed or flayed alive, except the game lapsed due to the start of the school year and conflicting schedules. And to this day as far as I know, the player still holds the same level of contempt for anything that threatens to place his beloved FR as anything other than God's gift to gaming. I love the world, I own most of the books, but FR has lately been tending to come off as self-important a bit. And its disturbing because it overshadows the frankly good things about the setting I continue to enjoy.
Mirtek 09-22-03, 07:21 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Still, it should have been beyond the scope of her power to do so. Well, this isn't a problem with Mystra or with the FR, but with the new point of view 3e in general takes on Asmodeus. While Asmodeus used to be a greater deity in 2e, he's no longer even just a quasideity in 3e, but only a big bad devil. With his current powerlevel, he can be gratefull that Mystra didn't just slew him. BTW; a deity, even a single sphere diety, going to Baator and slaughter millions of Baatezu as an afterthought, is perfectly fine even (or better especially) if you use the old 2e rules (the 2e rules are even better for this scenarion, since the power the deities had in 2e is a thousand times greater than the power they have now) Originally posted by Grognard the Mighty Gods in D&D have always been greater than fiends, even the Lords of the Nine and the Abyssal Lords. Even way back in 1e, a god could pretty much stomp all over any of them. The only book that really said othewrwise was that horrific 2e Guide, but most of that was ill-concevied rubbish anyway. The portrayal of Mystra destroying billions of bateezu as an after thought, if it did indeed happen this way, is actually quite accurate. Fiends and fiends lords are absolutely, postively nothing to a true deity, especially a greater power. Exactly Originally posted by Ozar I disagree. If Mystra can do what she did, why not destroy all of the Baatezu? Why not destroy all of the Lords of the Nine and destroy the Nine Hells itself? Hell, if there's just a bunch of puny Archdevils running the show, let's just have Mystra destroy the concept of Lawful Evil itself! But let's not stop there! Since the powers that embody the aspects of the multiverse are nothing to gods, let's just have Mystra kill the Lady of Pain! Why not destoy all LE? Well, the (greater) gods of LE would have a few words to say to that. Why not destroy the Lady? Well, if she can somehow sneak into Sigil, why not? Vecna did hold his own pretty well against the Lady, and he was a newborn greater deity, who wasn't yet used to wield all his powers. Imagine what a deity who's in full possesion of her powers can do in a battle against the Lady!!! The Lady once slew a greater deity. Impressive, makes her at very least a greater deity in her own right. But that doesn't guarantee that she could repeat that if faced with annother greater deity. Originally posted by Ozar The reason Azmodeus has likely been respected and avoided by other powers (At least before this disgraceful novel) is likely similar to why no one bothered the Lady of Pain after everyone saw what she did to Aoskar. Realistically, Mystra should have wound up right next to him. Well, Asmodeus once was a greater deity. Now he's no longer.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-22-03, 10:09 PM	Regarding Vecna in Sigil... there was a significant amount of special circumstances involved in him being there in the first place, as well as reasons why he wasn't obliterated in an instant. The Lady is one of, if not the, strongest entity in the planes. At least within Sigil itself, with a few caveats I'll grant you, She is all powerful. Now with Asmo, while stats for him are given in the BoVD, there's in other places such as the MotP hints that he's something more than simply an Archdevil. Frankly just leaving the option open to that 'something greater' is fine with me as it leaves individual DM's free to increase his power above those stats in the BoVD as they wish, or not. I don't really like giving stats to deities, much less beings of such age and mystery as the Overlord of Nessus.
Grognard the Mighty 09-23-03, 09:34 AM	The only time the Lords of the Nine or Abyssal Lords have been protrayed as mysterious uber beings that can destroy the multiverse were in later 2e in the Guide and perhaps some later Planescape products. That hardly effects D&D tradition, which 3e has returned to. These characters have pretty much always been nothing to true gods, with a few exceptions. Those that were challenges to gods had become gods themselves, which was never true of Asmodeus. Traditionally, the Sultan of the City of Brass (The Lord of the Efreeti.) has been mpre powerful than Asmodeus, meaning he was not even the most powerful planar creature in D&D. The whole notion of Asmodeus being anything other than a big ol bateezu is a purely late 2e / Planescape thing that lasted maybe two years tops before 3e returned him to his tradtional place. Manual of the Planes hints there could be more, but that is it, it just hints. Officially, in 3e, Asmodeus is just a planar being, nowhere near a god, with no divine rank. Back in 1e, the Abyssal Lord and the Lords of the 9 were not gods, they were just another notch in the sword for characters once they became around 12th level. 2e powered them up slightly, and then later on, when "Fan Boy Aura" kicked in (The drow have this same power.), nearly 20 years of continuity was changed just to appeal to the drooling masses. It was nice to see 3e put things back they way they were supposed to be.
D'Rath 09-23-03, 11:29 AM	Nevertheless while I can buy that a greater goddess could hold her own for a time in the Nine Hells what annoyed me to no end was the chosen flitting about taking out archfiends as if they were nothing more than flatulent goblins. I don't how many levels you have you're gonna get pulled down right quick when you launch a full frontal assault on Hell plus the Arch Fiends at the very least should be the subject of a great and terrible battle not just blasted like punks. The basic rule to follow is that Greenwood novels(his sourcebooks are fine) should NEVER be considered canon or even read. I think the whole El in Hell fiasco was more a result of his writing than a decision to place the Realms more powerful than the planes. If one was unfortunate enough to read the Spellfire series remember he had a Shandril kill several dracolichs, bunch of beholders, truckload of Zhents, Manshoon(!!!), and defeat Fzoul. I forget whether or not she defeated the demi-lich in the first or second book. In Greenwood's books antagonists exist only as a vehicle for his characters uber powers, so El in Hell should just be dismissed as irrelevant.
Kuje31 09-23-03, 11:47 AM	Originally posted by D'Rath The basic rule to follow is that Greenwood novels(his sourcebooks are fine) should NEVER be considered canon or even read. I think the whole El in Hell fiasco was more a result of his writing than a decision to place the Realms more powerful than the planes. If one was unfortunate enough to read the Spellfire series remember he had a Shandril kill several dracolichs, bunch of beholders, truckload of Zhents, Manshoon(!!!), and defeat Fzoul. I forget whether or not she defeated the demi-lich in the first or second book. In Greenwood's books antagonists exist only as a vehicle for his characters uber powers, so El in Hell should just be dismissed as irrelevant. This isn't really Ed's fault here. When you wrote novels under the TSR you were forced to portray villians as idiots and fools. There has been a lot of talk about how the villians in FR were treated this way under TSR's rules and authors are not always given free reign to write what they wanted, but what editors and higher ups wanted. Also the editors at TSR cut a lot of the scenes they felt were not "needed". http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ed-novels.htm
D'Rath 09-23-03, 12:06 PM	I don't think TSR ever had a policy that villans had to be portrayed as idiots or fools, that good had to when in the end but it was Ok for their to be a challenge. The drow and Artemis in the Salvatore books were certainly not portrayed as bumbling idiots nor were the varios servants of Bhaal in the Moonshaes trilogy. For that matter I don't think Cyric was an idiot in the Avatar series. The policy was limiting, but not THAT limiting, the heroes tend to win in most books anyway. I still not sure why Shandril was basically given mutant powers. Plus El in Hell was published under WotC and the villans still are paper cut outs that are there merely to be knocked down. Heroes have to win doesn't necessarily translate as hero needs to be able to kill world oldest dracolich without breaking a sweat. I really doubt there is anything that could have been added or removed to make those books better. In the end if Greenwood is writing the book the villans whether mortal, fiendish, or undead will not stand a chance against his characters. My greatest fear is the inevitable Elminster *****slaps Bane :D
Mirtek 09-23-03, 12:45 PM	Originally posted by Grognard the Mighty The only time the Lords of the Nine or Abyssal Lords have been protrayed as mysterious uber beings that can destroy the multiverse were in later 2e in the Guide and perhaps some later Planescape products. Actually even in GtH the first eight archfiends were no deities and below deities in power. Only Asmodeus was considered a greater god in Guide to Hell, the other eight weren't even demigods. Originally posted by Grognard the Mighty Back in 1e, the Abyssal Lord and the Lords of the 9 were not gods, they were just another notch in the sword for characters once they became around 12th level. AFAIK 1e DDG, which was released after the book containing the archfiends, had a line which said that if using this rules, the archfiends should be considered lesser deities. AFAIK that was the only time they were deities, in later editions a few of them were true deities, but the majority were just big bad devils/demons and weaker than true deities. Originally posted by D'Rath nor were the varios servants of Bhaal in the Moonshaes trilogy. For that matter I don't think Cyric was an idiot in the Avatar series. IMO Bhaal was portrayed as some sort of idiot during the Moonshae Trilogy, especially in the epiloge dealing whith how much his defeat hurt him. And in the Pools of Darkness novel, Bane is portrayed like a some sort of impatient fool and in the epiloge he even looks like a spoiled little child compared to Tyr who's portrayed as the wise father who can only smile and shake his head upon the whining child.
Kuje31 09-23-03, 12:51 PM	Originally posted by D'Rath I don't think TSR ever had a policy that villans had to be portrayed as idiots or fools, that good had to when in the end but it was Ok for their to be a challenge. The drow and Artemis in the Salvatore books were certainly not portrayed as bumbling idiots nor were the varios servants of Bhaal in the Moonshaes trilogy. For that matter I don't think Cyric was an idiot in the Avatar series. The policy was limiting, but not THAT limiting, the heroes tend to win in most books anyway. I still not sure why Shandril was basically given mutant powers. Plus El in Hell was published under WotC and the villans still are paper cut outs that are there merely to be knocked down. Heroes have to win doesn't necessarily translate as hero needs to be able to kill world oldest dracolich without breaking a sweat. I really doubt there is anything that could have been added or removed to make those books better. In the end if Greenwood is writing the book the villans whether mortal, fiendish, or undead will not stand a chance against his characters. My greatest fear is the inevitable Elminster *****slaps Bane :D Fine, if you don't want to listen to logic and the direct quote from the author saying other wise then I'm not going to discuss this. Since you won't change your mind even though you are not correct in your thinking and TSR did have such a policy. Since it also looks as you have a problem with just Ed's books, you are just going to be bias about every thing I say in defense to Ed's works and what TSR made him wrote about. Elaine has also said in the past that TSR/WOTC authors are not given as much leeway as they would like. And please Cyric isn't a fool? Oh right, lets not even get into that whole silly deal with his own book turning him insane. Bhaal was portrayed as a fool in the Moonshae novels also, he is a deity and he sends one of his avatars to the Moonshaes to basically just get slaughtered and then a few years later he is still so weak from that he dies in the ToT's.
D'Rath 09-23-03, 01:11 PM	Hmmm I forgot about the video game books and I don't really recall the details of the end of Darkwalker(looong time since I read but the level of idiocy I don't think compares) but I think my point still stands that authors were not handcuffed in writing idiot villans or superpowered heroes, in having the heroes always win there was a lot of latitude in what happens before. Were their other bad TSR books certainly but authors certainly had more to do with that than a broad editorial guidline. None of which forgives the sin of the Chosen able to basically smack the Hells around. It is a sad fact that when Greenwood writes about the most storied and deadly villans of the realms they never have even a ghost of a chance to even endanger the heroes. It is somewhat baffling because Grenwood is a very talented game developer, The Silver Marches I find to be as welll written and interesing as any FR sourcebook.
Kuje31 09-23-03, 01:45 PM	Originally posted by D'Rath None of which forgives the sin of the Chosen able to basically smack the Hells around. It is a sad fact that when Greenwood writes about the most storied and deadly villans of the realms they never have even a ghost of a chance to even endanger the heroes. It is somewhat baffling because Grenwood is a very talented game developer, The Silver Marches I find to be as welll written and interesing as any FR sourcebook. And I have already explained why this is so. You just don't seem to want to believe the reason why. :)
D'Rath 09-23-03, 02:04 PM	Then why aren't other authors forced to do so? I read what he said and I certainly realize that authors working in a share world owned by someone else work under significant restrictions, however many of the other authors seems to find ways to deal with this and still present viable, impressive villans. Artemis, Eliath, Matron Malice, Yhamun Khan, Cyric of The Avatar Trilogy(Cyric the god is a different story). Whether one feels these villans are well written or such is one thing but they do present significant obstacles for the hero to overcome. Does Greenwood have a significantly different contract than the other authors? I'll concede the possibility that Greenwood's writing is altered significantly more than other authors but I fail to see why that is the case and why it would still occur under WotC management.
Kuje31 09-23-03, 03:29 PM	Originally posted by D'Rath Then why aren't other authors forced to do so? I read what he said and I certainly realize that authors working in a share world owned by someone else work under significant restrictions, however many of the other authors seems to find ways to deal with this and still present viable, impressive villans. Artemis, Eliath, Matron Malice, Yhamun Khan, Cyric of The Avatar Trilogy(Cyric the god is a different story). Whether one feels these villans are well written or such is one thing but they do present significant obstacles for the hero to overcome. Does Greenwood have a significantly different contract than the other authors? I'll concede the possibility that Greenwood's writing is altered significantly more than other authors but I fail to see why that is the case and why it would still occur under WotC management. All authors for TSR and WOTC are under this contract. Elaine has said in the past she would love to write about her old characters but she cant, since WOTC does not want her to. Look at the Maiden of Pain guidelines, there are tons of things that a author could not write about since WOTC did not want these things in the book. (For example, no using any known villians or already established novel characters, no drow, etc). BTW, Elaith is Ed's character, not Elaine's. She used all of Ed's notes to write about that character. Ed has created hundreds of impressive, viable villians. Cyric as a mortal was still a fool and a idiot. As I said before, I think you are just being bais against Ed because you don't like his work, or at least that is what it looks like from my end here. Also TSR did have a code where villians did have to be idiots and fools, it has been slackened since WOTC bout out TSR but during the days of TSR the heros had to win, it was part of the TSR code, at least in the novels. Look at the Dragonlance novels for instance. I can't think of one novel in Dragonlance where the villian(s) win the day, even the new novels written for Dragonlance are the same way.
D'Rath 09-23-03, 04:01 PM	You are right I don't like his style. But I'm not talking about winning the day, I'm talking about villans and opponents not even being close to sucess. Sure Drizzt always beats Artemis but its a close battle between two closely matched opponents. The code was that villans couldn't win, not that they had to be fool or idiots, there is a world of difference there. If you want to bring in DL there is no way you could convince me that Soth or Kitara were fools or idiots. They lost but they got very close and the heroes won by the skin of their teeth. My problem with Greenwood's books are that the villans are never more powerful, never really get close, they don't just lose you wonder what the point of them even being there is. The heroes are unbelievably powerful and they mow through their enemies. The TSR rule was that heroes had to triumph, that good always had to defeat evil...there was no clause that said evil had to be foolish, incompetant and weak. Heroes in fantasy literature are defined by the villans and obstacles they face and overcome, when the most powerful villans the realms have to overcome are defeated with nary an effort it is stale and boring. That being said Greenwood is a top notch designer and creator, in his novels however he pays to much attention to statistics and the game and not enough to dramatic effect or effort. If Elaith appeared in one of Greenwood's novels he probably would either have been killed or forgotten, it took Cunningham to bring him to life. Also if TSR said Villans had to be fools what about Artemis?
Pajmage 09-24-03, 05:33 PM	ohhkaay.... Gonna bump this post back to the original question I asked. After reading Evermeet and Races of Faerun again I have come to the conclusion that Faerie is not the Original Elven homeworld. In Evermeet it is Silver and Gold Elves that travel to Abeir Toril after Faerie is destroyed in a war. RoF mentions specifically that the original Elven travellers to Faerun were Lythari, Green Elves and Avariel. Thanks to Savras and others for answering my questions about the Untheric/Mulhorandi Pantheons. Now if I can just find some info on the Dwarven and Orcish Homeworlds I'll be happy :)
Palancendraug 09-24-03, 11:37 PM	In the case of Artemis, his life itself was reffer to as foolish. That and he comes off more as an antihero than as a true villan anyway.