Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sententia 12-08-04, 10:16 PM	In the Players Guide to Faerun, there are I think four regions that have pistols as available bonus equipment. Doesn't the pressence of guns in the Forgotten Realms seem unfitting to you? Secondly, did old 2nd edition FR (which I'm trying, with difficulty, to replicate for my 3.5 edition campaign) have guns, and, if so, were they as wide-spread as they seem to be in modern Faerun?
WizO_BigSister 12-08-04, 10:36 PM	I am perfectly happy to see pistols in the Realms. There are many other aspects of Realms technology that are closer to Reannaisance or even early Industrial than to Medieval. Also ... I have never been a fan of trying to force any part of the Realms into a historical-Earth shaped pigeon hole. The presence of magic, the existance of the different races, the different paths history has taken, the sheer number of years there have been civilisations on Faerun ... all of these things end up making all FR cultures very different to any culture from any Earth time period.
Sententia 12-08-04, 10:45 PM	But were they around in 2nd edition?
BrianCritchley 12-08-04, 10:46 PM	aye, also keep in mind guns where in existance in the late medeval period, there was no sudden command from god "ok boom your in the renniscnece, you got all this now" it was a gradual process
EmeraldFox 12-08-04, 11:02 PM	Do you really want the Realms to advance so in technology? To do that would lose the traditional fantasy aspect of the Realms. Magic and science, as they contradict each other, can't co-exist, you must have one or the other.
Kuje31 12-08-04, 11:04 PM	In the Players Guide to Faerun, there are I think four regions that have pistols as available bonus equipment. Doesn't the pressence of guns in the Forgotten Realms seem unfitting to you? Secondly, did old 2nd edition FR (which I'm trying, with difficulty, to replicate for my 3.5 edition campaign) have guns, and, if so, were they as wide-spread as they seem to be in modern Faerun? Yes they were because they were first written up in FR Adventures which brought FR from 1e to 2e. :) And the tech level varies. Waterdeep only has had printing presses for a few years now.
WizO_BigSister 12-09-04, 03:17 AM	Do you really want the Realms to advance so in technology? To do that would lose the traditional fantasy aspect of the Realms. Magic and science, as they contradict each other, can't co-exist, you must have one or the other. I have been an avid fantasy fan for over 40 years now, and I don't perceive "traditional" fantasy as being "psuedo-medieval". As for magic and science being unable to co-exist I am not sure that this is a widely held idea. Some of the world's most respected writers (such as C J Cherryh) have no problem with magic and science co-existing. Heck even Lucas blurs the borders between fantasy and scifi (Use the force!) :P Besides ... allowing black-powder weapons isn't advancing the level of technology. Various parts of the realms already have technology at this sort of level .... sea going ships, architecture, sewage systems are just some examples.
iKitten 12-09-04, 03:26 AM	Waterdeep only has had printing presses for a few years now. And Lantan's had them for quite a while, they just didn't share it much with the outside world.
Another Gnome 12-09-04, 04:27 AM	Besides ... allowing black-powder weapons isn't advancing the level of technology. Especially when firearms in the Realms don't use blackpowder to propel the bullet, but an alchemical semi-magical substance. :P * * * Anyway, my players hate firearms with a passion, so I make good use of pistol-wielding gnomes occasionally just for the heck of it. :devil:
Barmoz 12-09-04, 10:15 AM	What I find kind of interesting is not the progress of technology, but rather the lack of it. Think of it this way, we have hundereds if not thousands of individuals running around with intellects to make Einstein look like a half-trained chimp, some of them having lifespans in the thousands of years. Imagine what could be created over the lifespan of an elf or a lich, assisted by magic in terms of technology creation and innovation. Using magic to provide a limitless, fueless, energy source. Using size reduction spells to craft pieces smaller than that possible by modern day Earth standards, the chemistry that is possible with transmutation, the sky is the limit. Take the progress of humankind on earth dating back to 1000 BC, now imagine our current state if our technology development could have been assisted by magic, and our most brilliant innovators had not been limited to a lifespan of 70ish years, the first third of which they spent learning how to eat and dress themselves and chasing (or being chased) by members of the opposite sex, instead of breaking ground in partical physics.
Faraer 12-09-04, 11:32 AM	In terms of Earth history, early firearms are contemporary with plate armour. But that's not relevant to the Realms, and neither are Barmoz's speculations -- the Realms simply does not work how our world does. (And the doctrine of progress and rapid technological advancement are *very* moderns notion in the history of mankind.) In terms of the mode of the Realms, guns are largely alien to it. They weren't widespread when introduced in Forgotten Realms Adventures, they're very rare in the current novels and game materials. Their existence is rather theoretical.
SammasterT 12-09-04, 11:42 AM	Take the progress of humankind on earth dating back to 1000 BC, now imagine our current state if our technology development could have been assisted by magic, and our most brilliant innovators had not been limited to a lifespan of 70ish years, the first third of which they spent learning how to eat and dress themselves and chasing (or being chased) by members of the opposite sex, instead of breaking ground in partical physics. There is also the consideration of Earth West's historical experience, and the Great Interruption brought on by the advent of that salvation religion. With this universities, "scientists", educators, and books were destroyed throughout southern Europe. This trend continued throughout the conversion of northern Europe -- were mathmaticians, amongst others things, flourished of their own accord -- was accentuated with the Crusades, when some of the best "educated" NW Europeans were killed in battle with the Muslims, or condemned by the Il Papa upon their return and burned as heretics, and finally came into full bloom during the age of the Inquisition, when with full power and orgnaization, all out war was waged against critical thought, inquiry, and understanding. All of this served to set European man back much further than a buncha Goths or vikings ever could have. And the reality is, we have only, in the past century, begun to at least emerge out of the intellectual and spiritual dark age Religion X put us in. And given the amount of alienation still present in our culture, much reconciliation, much enlightenment, regarding how perceived opposites can and do actually work together, is still necessary. So, even without absurd lifespans, or kingdms with unbroken and continuous tradtions lasting 1000 + years (Cormyr), FR is historically equiped to be WAY ahead of us backward earthlings given a common time frame.
SammasterT 12-09-04, 12:10 PM	So, even without absurd lifespans, or kingdms with unbroken and continuous tradtions lasting 1000 + years (Cormyr), FR is historically equiped to be WAY ahead of us backward earthlings given a common time frame. As an after thought, compound this fact, with the fact that earth man had to blaze all cultural trails all by himself. And even neanderthal could have had a much more sophisticated culture if he had of had an example to work from! He was hardly stupid. And a human living in a cave is still a human, with all of the potnetial capability and raw genius as any other of its kind. Anyway, unlike Earth Man, FR Man had the example of the elves for a very, very long time. Even if only seen from a distance, that would be enough to fire the mind of man and get the wheels turning.
SammasterT 12-09-04, 12:16 PM	Holy CoW!!! Starjammer all of a sudden makes perfect sense!!! :eek:
warlockco 12-09-04, 10:57 PM	Generally the Tech Level is the same as the Dark Ages to just before the Renaissance in human history, with some areas have Renaissance Era technology, especially Lantan.
WizO_BigSister 12-10-04, 01:50 AM	Warlockco consider the various tech levels in Earth in the 4th & 5th Century. Parts of Europe were still in the Iron Age, and were not very proficient at making steel. Other areas in Europe had perfected the making of steel to such a level they could make complex plate armour and high quality swords. There was a third group of lands/countries etc who had more contact with non-European countries in the form of trade, and these groups had begun to harness the power of water (the earliest precursor of the Industrial Ages), experiment with much more difficult and complex architecture, and to develop weapons using various types of gunpowder. I don't think the "scientists" of this period thought in terms of alchemists and chemists ... they were all one group of experimenters. The bottom line is they had just figured out what recipes to follow to make stuff that worked, but they had no idea why gunpowder worked (it could even be a form of magic!) Now let’s widen our vision outwards ... looking at the various elements of Roman technology found in the Byzantine lands, and the high levels of scientific research and understanding in the Arabic world. If we take yet another step back and look at the Orient and the new world the differences in technology found in what were thriving civilizations was mind boggling. Some cultures hadn't even invented the wheel while others were grinding lenses to look at the planets! Every single civilisation has a different combination of high tech and lower tech ... the history, geology and geography of each group gave them a unique "technological profile" (my phrase ... I can't think of a real word to describe what I mean :P ) Toril is a world which is fundamentally different to our own ... magic being one significant factor; the presence of multiple intelligent races and the very different relationship between the peoples and their gods are two more fundamental differences. These differences must lead to different patterns of the various levels of tech found in different applications throughout each culture. In my opinion trying to find the "earth equivalent" of any part of Fearun, and then trying to make the region fit in with your perceptions of that earth equivalent is not a useful exercise.
Another Gnome 12-10-04, 04:58 AM	Using magic to provide a limitless, fueless, energy source. Magic itself is a limitless energy source. Using size reduction spells to craft pieces smaller than that possible by modern day Earth standards To accomplish what magic alone does aleady? chemistry that is possible with transmutation, the sky is the limit. The sky as the limit has been reached and breached thousands of years ago; why stop at the sky when you can instead move to entire different realities? With magic. Want a TV? Craft your own crystal ball. Want weapons of mass destruction? Have a few scrolls of meteor swarm. Want mass transportation? Just step into a teleportation circle. Want advanced medicine? Try resurrection - or something more powerful. Those with the ability to advace science have the least reason to do so.
GothicDan 12-10-04, 09:11 AM	I agree with Another Gnome. In a world in which magic is so readily available, there's simply no point in having much technology. And those already with magic would be against technological advances, because it would diminish their importance. The Enclaves of Netheril and the Mythaled cities such as Myth Drannor had levels of magic so great that they probably put some futuristic cities to shame.
iKitten 12-10-04, 09:28 AM	And I say if that were the case, Lantan and Gond would have bit the bullet a long time ago, to turn a phrase. Magic's not infalliable. The Fall of Netheril, the collapse and ruin of Myth Drannor...if magic were full proof and solved everyone's problems, the Realms wouldn't be nearly as fun as they are.
SammasterT 12-10-04, 01:36 PM	Warlockco consider the various tech levels in Earth in the 4th & 5th Century. Parts of Europe were still in the Iron Age, and were not very proficient at making steel. Other areas in Europe had perfected the making of steel to such a level they could make complex plate armour and high quality swords. ....<snip> .... Every single civilisation has a different combination of high tech and lower tech ... the history, geology and geography of each group gave them a unique "technological profile" (my phrase ... I can't think of a real word to describe what I mean :P ) Indeed. Even in our 21st century Earth we have a broad range of differeing tech-levels, ranging from Stone Age (yeah, yeah) to our own urban hyper-civilization of the West. But even within our own Western nations, we have folk such as the Amish, the Appalachian Mtn. folk, various hunters in the northern Canada or Alaska, and even an entire Canadian province of Natives living a more-or-less traditional hunter/gather type lifestyle (to various degrees). I'm not sure how many of these Stone age type cultures could be called "pristine" of course, but they still have strong, overwhelming aspects of Stone age culture and lifestyle. And, incidently, they are viable cultures, with or without Western, technological influence. Culture is made up of many aspects, of which technology is but one part. What is most responsible for the growth of a peoples technology is wealth. Some areas of the old world were simply naturally suited to create more material abundance. The Euphrates, the Nile, the Mediterranean Basin, are all, for one reason or another, examples of such areas. More wealth naturally enables a people to do more in terms of technology. And this desire to do more, build more, whatever, leads to the developement of science and engineering. This is not to say that less affluent cultures are roundly less than more affluent cultures. Less affluent cultures are more than capable of competing in such things as theology, poetry, and other aspects of culture that simply don't require large amounts of money to cultivate. And historically, there has always been a trade off. Wealth was always amassed and technology advanced, at the expense of social wellbeing, ie. the breakdown of culture. Any urban centre stands as a testament to tech-oriented culture. In contrast, lower-tech peoples have always, and continue to be far more socially fit, on whole, and much more psychologically centred as individuals, than urban man ... who tends to be highly isolated and alienated, and stressed to the max, in comparison. "But just alittle more Starbuck's, please!!!!!!" :eek: Historically, these lower-tech folk have always been country dwellers. And a friction always existed between these two peoples irregardless of political lines. To even the preChristian urban Roman for instance, the classic "urbani", thier own fellow Roman, but countrydwelling "pagan" was considered every bit as much of a "backwards hick" as were the "heathen" barbarians living just beyond the Rhine or in Gaul. Curiously, this friction continues on into today, and has yet to be resolved in our own modern world. Perhpas the next big step in our evolition. I wonder how all of this plays itself in FR? Ahhh, the Classic ranger/druid vs. encroaching civilization scenario? Elves vs. Man? Elves vs. Orci?
GothicDan 12-10-04, 02:09 PM	And I say if that were the case, Lantan and Gond would have bit the bullet a long time ago, to turn a phrase. Magic's not infalliable. The Fall of Netheril, the collapse and ruin of Myth Drannor...if magic were full proof and solved everyone's problems, the Realms wouldn't be nearly as fun as they are. The question as to whether or not it's the case really isn't even in the air; it's fact. There is factual evidence in books that magic in FR is very plentiful and it can be used, on a regular basis, to perform minor tasks that your everyday man might need, up to the greatest of tasks. I never said that magic is infallible, though, and neither is technology! :) Perfect modern-day example: Halruaa. They have bloody zeppelins (Sky Ships) that are powered by magic, and even many "common" people can perform Cantrips, as they could in the days of Netheril. And Gond is the deity of Invention first and foremost, not just technology. So if you use magic to invent something, he still gets some of that power.
silverrun2060 12-10-04, 02:47 PM	Yeah, the Gnome Artificer from lantan doesn't invent magicless technology.... He basicly makes magic items with a different style. Im pretty sure they have to have a level of arcane spellcaster to even get the class.
Demetrios 12-10-04, 06:19 PM	There is also the consideration of Earth West's historical experience, and the Great Interruption brought on by the advent of that salvation religion. With this universities, "scientists", educators, and books were destroyed throughout southern Europe. This trend continued throughout the conversion of northern Europe -- were mathmaticians, amongst others things, flourished of their own accord -- was accentuated with the Crusades, when some of the best "educated" NW Europeans were killed in battle with the Muslims, or condemned by the Il Papa upon their return and burned as heretics, and finally came into full bloom during the age of the Inquisition, when with full power and orgnaization, all out war was waged against critical thought, inquiry, and understanding. All of this served to set European man back much further than a buncha Goths or vikings ever could have. And the reality is, we have only, in the past century, begun to at least emerge out of the intellectual and spiritual dark age Religion X put us in. And given the amount of alienation still present in our culture, much reconciliation, much enlightenment, regarding how perceived opposites can and do actually work together, is still necessary. So, even without absurd lifespans, or kingdms with unbroken and continuous tradtions lasting 1000 + years (Cormyr), FR is historically equiped to be WAY ahead of us backward earthlings given a common time frame. Wow, someone has an axe to grind! Given your theory, how do you explain the continued existence of learning and scholarship in the Byzantine Empire? The only difference, it seems to me, is not due to religion (church and state in the Byzantine Empire was even more interwined than it ever was in the West, and thus, by your theory, even more likely to supress learning, which didn't happen), but the fact that Constantinople was left untouched by barbarian invaders until 1204.
SammasterT 12-10-04, 07:30 PM	The only difference, it seems to me, is not due to religion (church and state in the Byzantine Empire was even more interwined than it ever was in the West, and thus, by your theory, even more likely to supress learning, which didn't happen), but the fact that Constantinople was left untouched by barbarian invaders until 1204. So, you are saying "barbarian invaders" are the reason why certain powers of the civilized West started burning books, killing scholars, and oppressing knowledge? And you want me to justify my "theory"? Seriously, the "burden of proof" doesn't really require me too.
SammasterT 12-10-04, 07:44 PM	At the risk of selling my fellow Western Europeans short, it might also be noted that, since the loosening up of the West, and the disempowerment of Religion X, all of the great inventions and accomplishments in the past 100 years or so have been almost entirely Western European (and descendents) in origin. Not bad for the offspring of a buncha invading barbarians, eh?
ruleslawyer 12-10-04, 10:30 PM	Suspend the RW discussion before it gets out of hand, folks. Anyway, I'm with Another Gnome here. Magic is limitless, doesn't seem to be enslaved by the laws of conservation of mass and energy, and can be worked by individual craftsmen without the need to exploit economies of scale. So far as we know, it appears to generate little or nothing in the way of environmental damage as well. Why bother with technology? I know that I've spent many a time woolgathering about how nice the world actually might be without a lot of the so-called "progress" that characterizes the modern era; I could do without PCBs, persistent organic pollutants, greenhouse gases, or hydrocarbon dependence entirely, for instance. I can do things with magic that are impossible even by the most outre standards of sci-fi imagination. Why I would ever want to go over to black-powder tech is beyond me.
GothicDan 12-10-04, 11:07 PM	The main reason I'm so interested in physics is because it's the closest thing to magic that I can get my hands on in the real world. ;)
WizO_BigSister 12-11-04, 12:32 AM	Can I second that request to suspend the real world debate. I really was not trying to get involved in a discussion of the causes of changes and the merits or otherwise of different cultures ... my point was that even in a single period of time there is a HUGE range of technologies. As for the magic and science can't co-exist debate ... as I said the border between the two is very, very blurred. Magic can be used to power science and vice versa. From the point of view of the man paying with powders there may be no difference between an alchemist and a chemist! The other point I'd like to make is that technology isn't only just driven by need but also by curiosity. People don't always make things because they are needed ... they often make things because they can!
greaterbaatezu 12-11-04, 04:52 AM	It's the same with magical items, and certain spells... case in point: Karsus' Avatar; Waldorf's Armageddon Major Missile. These are the two worst examples. And just like technology (nuclear warheads, for instance) there are truly devestating consequences to certain magic. Example, I had a Mage/Pirate who got sick of Sahuagin raids on the island he ruled in the southwestern part of the Sea of fallen stars. So, he went down and used an epic spell to raise an underwater volcano right in the middle of their biggest city down there to kill them off. The unseen side effect (which actually is in the timeline, and a fortuitous thing for the dm to use to torture my character's conscience and fear) was that the underwater earthquake created by raising the volcano caused a tidal wave to annihilate an entire island that belongs to Thay. There was also some vague reference he made to sinking some Mulhorandi boat... anyone know what he was talking about?
GothicDan 12-11-04, 11:56 AM	True, technology is not always made out of need, but it is made readily available, worked on regularly, and provided with resources for, when it is needed. For instance, why buy your child a little mechanical toy for 20 SP (expensive toy!) when you can buy the same toy that does the same thing, made with magic, for 10? Whatever major technological advances that would be made in FR would have ot go hand-in-hand with magic, otherwise the various magic-using organizations/NPCs would quickly put a stopper on it. And the fact that it's been established that "modern" technology simply fails without obvious reason (because the science of FR is different from real world science), is definitely saying something about the nature of the Realms, as posited by its creator: That Magic should always trump technology. So, we have numerous reasonings as to why technology is not as advanced as it should be in a world without magic, and we have the evidence of this - the setting does not have a lot of technology!
Sententia 12-12-04, 02:23 AM	But it does have some technology. There are guns in the Realms, which makes me wonder. It seems to me that building a pistol would be difficult in Faerun, requiring considerable alchemical skill and mechanical capability. This may be a bold statement, but I would say that most people in FR with high enough intelligence and enough cash to manufacture a gun are wizards. In that case, wouldn't it be easiar to just cast spells? Unless of course the wizard wanted guns for other people, in which case a simple fireball scroll might still be a better option. True, you need some training to use that scroll, but you need some training to use a gun too, reloading was hard back then! My point is, why does technology of this kind even exist in the Realms when magic can do everything and more so much better?
Another Gnome 12-12-04, 05:42 AM	Wizards don't produce pistols, Lantanese and gnomes do. You could argue that both groups are a bit funny in the head, you know. Anyway, constructing a pistol or a musket only requires Craft(gunsmithing) skill; the gunsmith doesn't necessarily need to create his or her own smokepowder - which in turn requires Craft(alchemy) and a spellcaster - to simply build the gun itself. A pistol or a musket is a weapon like any other, a bit more powerful, a bit more far-reaching than a crossbow, but ultimately all one needs for a gun is a barrell (a hollow metal rod) and something to ignite the powder with (a piece of flint struck by the hammer of the gun). Going even more into the basics of the idea, a front-loaded firearm is just a glorified blowgun!
GothicDan 12-12-04, 10:37 AM	A pistol does not threaten the overall supreme rule of magic on Faerun, to put it simply. And as long as you can produce magical armor that can deflect things better than typical medieval armor, we won't see the pistol making armor obsolete, either. However, as I said, Ed Greenwood believes that technology to a certain level, simply put, cannot exist in FR. No electrical work or the like, as per the rules of the world itself. So that's another major reason why technology hasn't advanced. The proliferation and limitless supply of magic + Technology not working on Faerun = Relatively little technology.
WizO_BigSister 12-13-04, 02:12 AM	I think most of us agree that the Realms can have some technology. the presence of magic means that the technology is slower to advance, and less common than you might otherwise expect. Perhaps we may see the very first inklings of the Inudstrial era ... examples would be water driven looms and other machines (but not steam driven let alone internal combustion!), pot bellies stoves rather than open fires, crude clockwork devices, glasswork (clear glass windows, lenses). However we won't see the sudden flourishing of a rapidly advancing Steam Age we saw here on Earth, let alone anything that followed. I also think we have to allow for a higher level of technology in ships than we see in other areas. We see 2 and 3 masted vessels that are more akin to late 18thC or early 19thC than Rennaisance. However as several posts have pointed out widely varying differences in tech level both within a civilisation and between neighbouring civilisations is understandable and acceptable. In summary ... most of us would agree simple pistols are O.K but a revolver with a rifled barrel is not O.K, and a machine gun would be utterly ridiculous!
Faraer 12-13-04, 12:53 PM	The Realms is full of technology: agriculture, leather-curing, ironworking, the arch, the printing press, the saddle, you name it. But, again, the technology we see in the Realms owes *nothing* to modern models of how our own world works, and everything to literary requirements and preferences. Because like most secondary worlds, the Realms is not a world like ours that just happens to be fictional; it is an imaginative construct that happens to resemble our familiar world in certain limited ways.
Hranitel 12-17-04, 08:02 PM	I'm somewhat new to RPGs, but I've been a fan of fantasy/sci-fi fiction for quite some time, but the idea of mages living in mud huts has never made much sense to me. I don't really like the players/writers who want to recreate our tech into a fantasy world (why would someone want to propel a small led ball from a tube with alchemical-subtances in order to injure someone when you can simply cause that person to die), but I see no reason for townsmen in a setting like the Forgotten Realms to be pulling water out of a well when you can just use a "Decanter of Endless Water", to make foggy glass when they can make steel invisible, etc. One other thing I would love to see in the flavor of a setting like FR is the fact that man does not hold the same place in the food-chain there as here on earth (here I'm the top - there look much closer to the bottom).
Gellion 12-18-04, 03:35 AM	*Rides around in his bio-mechanical mecha and blows away some Wizards* What?
Harmonica 12-18-04, 04:31 AM	but I see no reason for townsmen in a setting like the Forgotten Realms to be pulling water out of a well when you can just use a "Decanter of Endless Water", to make foggy glass when they can make steel invisible, etc. The reason everybody doesn't live in a "Leomunds disirable mansion" with a decanter of endless water and a horn of plenty to create food and water is that people distrust magic enough, not to fulfill their primary needs with it. And they are quite right. How many peasants would have died a homeless, hungy death during the Time of Troubles? My :twocents:
GothicDan 12-18-04, 11:06 AM	*Rides around in his bio-mechanical mecha and blows away some Wizards* What? *Casts a personally devised version of a Charm spell that allows it to penetrate metal, with a vague knowledge of where the target is. Controls the occupant of the mecha into hitting the self-destruct button, by suggesting it's in fact a self-cleaning button* Nothin'.
Gellion 12-18-04, 02:06 PM	*Casts a personally devised version of a Charm spell that allows it to penetrate metal, with a vague knowledge of where the target is. Controls the occupant of the mecha into hitting the self-destruct button, by suggesting it's in fact a self-cleaning button* Nothin'. *Laughs as the magic is inneffective* What can I say? I am a god-moder. :) And my mecha has no self-destruct button. :P
GothicDan 12-20-04, 02:16 AM	Pft. Sad that technology has to resort to god-moding to compete with magic. ;)
Gellion 12-20-04, 02:19 PM	Pft. Sad that technology has to resort to god-moding to compete with magic. ;) Bah, I am now working on my newest anti-mind compelling thingy. And then there are the mushroom men....
Tom Kalbfus1 12-22-04, 03:06 PM	Do you really want the Realms to advance so in technology? To do that would lose the traditional fantasy aspect of the Realms. Magic and science, as they contradict each other, can't co-exist, you must have one or the other. Not necessarily. Ever hear of D20 Modern? My forgotten Realms book says the current year is 1372 DR. What if we assume that the technology corresponds exactly to 1372 AD? According to my DK Timeline book, this period is called the High Middle Ages. Suppose we advance the calendar date 632 years to 2004 DR? This would be a good setting for a D20 Modern Campaign, except that we feel no obligation to reign in the magic as the book suggests. One can get away with just using the equipment in the books and keep the character classes the same. Of course we'd have to rename them. I did some work in this reguard take a look. Weapon-----------------------Alias---------------------------------------Purchase DC Batlock 1/3 in.----------------“Berretta 92F” (9mm autoloader)---------------16 Batlock 1/3 in. Thunder----“Beretta 93R” (9mm machine pistol)------------18 Firebolt 2/5 in.----------------“Colt Double Eagle” (10mm autoloader)------16 Firebolt 5/11in.--------------“Colt M1911” (.45 autoloader)------------------15 Firebolt 5/14 in.-------------“Colt Python” (.357 revolver)---------------------15 Deemus 5/11 in.-------------“Derringer” (.45)------------------------------------14 Deemus Screamer ˝ in.----“Desert Eagle” (0.50 autoloader)-----------------18 O-Tech Avenger 1/3 in.---“Glock 17” (9mm autoloader)-----------------------18 O-Tech Crusader 2/5 in.--“Glock 20” (10mm autoloader)----------------------18 Deathgrip 5/11 in.----------“MAC Ingram M10” (.45 machine pistol)--------15 Ranger 2/9 in.---------------“Pathfinder” (.22 revolver)--------------------------14 Basilisk 5/13 in. -----------“Ruger Service-six” (.38S revolver)----------------14 Norco Blazer 4/9 in.-------“S&W M29” (.44 magnum revolver)--------------15 Norco 1/3 in.---------------“SITES M9” (9mm autoloader)---------------------15 Sting Ray 8/25 in.---------“Skorpion” (.32 machine pistol)---------------------17 Phoenix 1/3 in.-------------“TEC-9” (9 mm machine pistol)---------------------14 Defender 8/25 in.----------”Walter PPK” (.32 autoloader)----------------------15 Civilian Cars---------------------Alias----------------------------------------Purchase DC Sembian Motors, Pegasus-----“Acura 3.2 TL” (mid-size sedan)------------------29 Riebold Lightning---------------“Aston-Martin Vanquish” (sports coupe)-------36 Pierguard Paladin---------------“BMW M3” (sports coupe)------------------------30 Sembian Motors Challenger--“Chevrolet Cavalier” (economy coup)-----------26 Riebold Eagle-------------------“Chevrolet Corvette” (sports coupe)--------------30 Pierguard Ghost-----------------“Dodge Neon” (economy sedan)-------------------26 Cormirian motors, Cruiser----“Ford Crown Victoria” (mid-size sedan)----------28 Dragon 9CX--------------------“Jaguar XJS” (luxury sedan)---------------------------32 Pierguard Pirate----------------“Lamborghini Diablo” (sports coupe)---------------37 Riebold Deva-------------------“Mercedes E55 AMG” (luxury sedan)--------------32 Cormirian Motors, Arrow----“Volkswagen Jetta” (mid-size wagon)--------------28