Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Baptor 12-29-04, 12:26 PM	Eberron....a great setting IMHO...has destroyed my Realms. Ive been an avid Realms fan since well since I started playing in 96. And up until recently, all my players were too. I decided to take a break from the normal and try out Eberron. After only a few sessions, my players are ready and willing to throw in the towel on FR forever. Thier reasons? 1. No Chosen of Mystra and/or Super level characters always wandering around (and no I never once did a Deux es Machina, they merley interacted with these guys) 2. Less walls, no novels and authors telling you this happened and that happened 3. More to know and explore, different themes that focus on us rather than them And I cannot disagree. I have told them many of those things can be abolished if not ignored, and they said "you can ignore the walls, but to us they will always be there" I dont know what to do. Should I let my Realms die? Or is there hope? Has anyone else run into this problem before? Oh please I miss FR.
Zzasrix 12-29-04, 01:01 PM	The first world i was introduced to was FR. It has been my setting of choice DM and Player from almost the beggining. First i would just like to say that i think players should have the same chance of meeting the Chosen, or any of the famous NPCs, as they do of meeting a demi-god (which they practically are). Ok i am a little confused... What walls? What specifically do they think is keeping them walled in? To me, and perhaps i have a skewed perspective, the realms is as free a setting as there is. There are ALWAYS going to be more powerful characters (some significantly so) in any setting. Irregardless if you call that person Bob the Bad A Mage or Elminster the powerful characters will always be there and fill the same roles that the chosen of Mystra do. The part about there being too many novels confuses me even more. I thought the ultimate goal of an RPG is to first have fun and second make it as realistic as possible. Doesnt fleshing out the world and the events in it make the world more realistic?? Also, there are so many lands in FR that have never had anything but a paragraph written about them. Why cant the party go there? Perhaps i should pick up the Eberron book, but i seriously doubt that the world is half as detailed and half again as large as FR. My other question is... what about FR do you miss? Can you bring those things along with you to Eberron? Good luck to you sir, but remember at the end of the day YOU are the DM. Z
GreenDay 12-29-04, 01:05 PM	Hi I play in the Realms and my Dm says theres lots of good stuff in Eberon and he's going to borow some of it for our game so maybe you can borow some too? ;) :confused: :)
Baptor 12-29-04, 01:09 PM	Yes I am the DM, and ive told them already that if they choose never again to return to the Realms I will refuse to run any games of any kind. Still I live in the U.S. and democracy has grown on me. I feel I should at least hear thier cries and come to some sort of compromise.
Tempus665 12-29-04, 01:20 PM	If you're all having fun in Eberron, play Eberron, otherwise, compromise :) I've always played D&D, but every once in a while I have to play Modern as well. I play D&D with different people than the people I play Modern with. We're all happy :)
Alac Luin 12-29-04, 02:22 PM	Run campains in each world! and/or Play in the less detailed areas of the realms.
ClobberinTime 12-29-04, 03:18 PM	Walls, well I'd show em walls if thats what they want, Totally trick them thats what I'd do, make there be an uber powerful group of extraplanar mages that really controls everything eberron, in fact make them from Faerun, as they go on they will begin to see the cabal at work, then around level 20 they gotta go to FR and kill them, or hear is a good one remember the old 2ed module paladin in hell, well in that there was an entire material world inside a crystal amulet which Asmodeus is trying to get his hands on. Now lets say that that world is in fact eberrron, muhaa muhaha muhahaha, i could go on like that all day... or make some eberron char really be say manshoon.
LiXinjian 12-29-04, 03:31 PM	Of course there's less novels set within Eberron; that world's not even a year old yet. I think what your players are missing is the Novelty Factor. They have gamed for so long in FR that they feel they know every nook and cranny. Then comes Eberron, where the fun of gaming is tinted with the extra fun of discovery. If your players read half the novels WoTC publishes, then it is no wonder they've tired of the FR. My advice is that you re-invent the Forgotten Realms for your game. How about setting your next campaign right in the middle of the events that will eventually lead up to the Fall of Netheril? That'll provide a new kind of "tension". The idea is to use the knowledge the players posess to build up a great game of mythic proportions. It is, after all, the only time you can exploit such an opportunity. Most of the time, neither the players nor their characters know what the future holds. The knowledge of what is to come adds tension, and a new flavour to a game. IMHO, at least. The other advice I can give is that you should throw them a curve and start off in a completely different direction from the books. Some sort of "What if?" linked to a major element of the story. A starting point to investigate what the Realms might have looked like IF X had happened instead of Y. Make it big, but not too much. What would have happened if the tablets of fate had never been returned, and the gods were still walking the realms? Okay: That's not a good example, because it's old news and too big, but I don't keep up with the story myself, so I don't know what's been happening lately, other than Lloth's silence (which probably doesn't affect the PCs unless they're Drow). Return of the City of Shade might be better. By the way, playing villains is a very fun way to change the pace, and explore the darker side of D&D. You'll be playing the good guys. How often did you play a paladin attempting a smite evil on the PCs? Me, never. How often do players get to hatch diabolical schemes to enslave a whole town? Well, all the time, but never so blatantly! :) Just a few thoughts, hopefully expressed with enough skill that you understood what I was babbling about...
Acererak 12-29-04, 04:17 PM	I fail to understand what the big deal is about meeting one of Mystra's chosen. As long as you're not treating them as a deus ex machina, the impact on your campaign should be as minimal (or as campaign changing -depending on where you as DM want the campaign to go) as meeting the Mayor of Sharn or the head of a Dragonmarked House. I've used the Simbul and Elminster in my FR campaign - and while they're a novelty to use, they never had a direct impact on my campaign, or on my player's plans for their characters. Seems to me your players are obessing over character levels. Does it really matter in your game that Elminster is 30th-level and Vol isn't? Both can serve as an impetus for a campaign, and act as patron or antagonist - character level not withstanding. I think LiXinjian's right too - the novelty factor can be a big pull to campaign setting. Play Eberron for a while, and enjoy it. Play up and embrace the pulp/noir aspect of the setting - don't turn Khorvaire into Faerūn. Your players will start to miss the high fantasy of the Realms and drift back towards FR.
The Simbul 12-29-04, 05:34 PM	Ever play Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark? When Mephistopheles came rampaging through Waterdeep I kept waiting for Khelben Blackstaff, Laeral Silverhand, or Qilue Veladorn to make an appearence (the latter one most of all given the Drow/undermountain theme), yet not once did they show up to "save the day", nor to ever "give advice", or even to "rescue the character". In fact, they arent even mentioned in the story at all, other than the fact that you can aqquire Khelben's signature Blackstaff spell, or perhaps read about them in one of the randomly looted books found in the game. Chosen of Mystra only play a part in the campaign if you want them to, and even then they dont ever have to be in the forefront or otherwise ever be even noticed by the player characters.
ClobberinTime 12-29-04, 09:06 PM	Or honestly just kill off most of the chosen, assume they and the princes of shade go toe to toe and most of both sides die off, or maybe the new mystra decides that she doesn't need chosen and spreads her power around locations in faerun that anchor the weave, there are thousands of them, and the powerful vie for them, as for the former chosen they start to age, and die at the hands of their many enemies, now the enemies die in droves too, cause now Szass Tamm isn't hands off for the now non-chosen Symbul who fries him, but in turn is fried by five of the princes of shade, but only after she kills 3 of them... etc....etc...
Mystery Man 12-29-04, 09:24 PM	Yes I am the DM, and ive told them already that if they choose never again to return to the Realms I will refuse to run any games of any kind. There's http://dnd.meetup.com/ and enworld.org has a place called Gamers Seeking Gamers. I believe WoTC's message boards still have personals. Go find new gamers and tell these guys to have a nice time.
Barmoz 12-30-04, 12:59 AM	It's a catch 22. As a DM, it's easiest, and in many cases best, to game in the setting that has the most supporting material. Even as a player, it's interesting to read the plethora of material published for a setting. FR just has SOOOO much going for it in books and supplements across multiple editions of the game and dozens of novels detailing the world. This does tend to destroy the feeling of imersion that creates the magic of D&D. It's hard to roleplay a low level commoner from a small village, whose knowledge of the world would realistically extend no further than the 400 person village he's heard of but never visited a four day's ride from his farm, when the person playing the character knows the identities and special abilities of the chosens of every god in the realms, the existence, not just the reasons for the fall of the ancient empire of Netheril, the political structure of Menzoberanzan (sp), etc. I play the online game Everquest, and there is nothing that can replicate the feeling of being a true newbie. Remaking a character, when my other character is level 70 and having experienced every dungeon in the game, the hardest raid monsters possible to kill, does not replace the feeling of wonder from the first character I created in a completely unknown world.
Cthulhu 01-03-05, 01:51 AM	Yes I am the DM, and ive told them already that if they choose never again to return to the Realms I will refuse to run any games of any kind. Still I live in the U.S. and democracy has grown on me. I feel I should at least hear thier cries and come to some sort of compromise. If the Forgotten Realms is boring the stuffing out of your players...if you find yourself agreeing with every complaint about FR...if your players are having a ball with Eberron since its giving them something FR can't... What are you fighting them for? It sounds like your Eberron campaign is a hit. Run it out until your players decide to return. They will eventually.
Cole Deschain 01-03-05, 03:49 AM	My advice? Set a campaign around the Fall of Myth Drannor. Yes, the outcome is set and foredoomed... yes, the good guys lose, and there are piles of high-level NPCs running around- the trick is, in a losing war, the PCs have less to lose. After all, why not leave a legend for the bards to sing of years later, if a good story is all you're going to achieve? Sometimes futility is its own reward.
Bocklin 01-03-05, 05:01 AM	1. No Chosen of Mystra and/or Super level characters always wandering around (and no I never once did a Deux es Machina, they merley interacted with these guys) My players do not even KNOW that Chosen of Mystra exist. And they are only barely aware that there is some kind of a "good guy Drow" from novels that exists (my campaign is based in the Silver Marches). Why? Because they were all new to the FR and had no pre-knowledge whatsoever about the world. As a DM I think that the Chosen and most of the other powerful NPCs are completely useless, so I never used them, nor mentioned them. Whatever the world and game system you use, you want the players to be the heroes, not to be runner-ups to bigger heroes. So if there is a big bad evil happening in my world, the players are the only one able to do something. I do not need extra powerful NPCs to tell them what to do and/or do it in their stead. 2. Less walls, no novels and authors telling you this happened and that happened Humm... In January, you have two Eberron trilogies starting. So I guess it is just a matter of time before this situation is "solved". ;-) Anyway, history and past events are the basis that gives a setting its flair and focus. What would be the Realms without the ToT or Dragonlance without the first Cataclysm. In Eberron you have the Last War as THE big event defining the whole feeling throughout Khorvaire. Additional historical events are just to take or leave. In my Realms, the Archmage never came back and I do not think that the Dragons will rage... I consider all these novels and extra stories as "options" you can take in to flesh-out YOUR Realms, not as things you absolutely have to accept as a truth. And I would do the same with all settings. 3. More to know and explore, different themes that focus on us rather than them Seems strange to me that you should say that. The sheer volume of FR source books gives you much much more material to play with and much more places to explore... And the focus put on the player is not something from the book but something a DM does/should do... Nothing setting-related here... Anyway, Eberron seems interesting and I am happily reading the source books. Still, I think that the Realms have nothing to fear from an "infant setting"... Bocklin
Zanan 01-03-05, 05:30 AM	Baptor ... the only thing which makes the FR different from Eberron is the simple fact that the latter is a very new setting. Given time, your players will see walls being errected and novels being written and within two years, it will be much like the FR are now. After all, those novels were published over as psace of what, 25 years? Eberron hasn't managed 25 month or so.
ElGrecoETAC 01-03-05, 12:19 PM	1. No Chosen of Mystra and/or Super level characters always wandering around (and no I never once did a Deux es Machina, they merley interacted with these guys) Why would you even have them "interact" with them? If they're not actively being used as a part of your campaign, I don't see why they would (or should) just be hanging around for interaction. In fact, most of them are rather written up so that they aren't simply abused with cameos. 2. Less walls, no novels and authors telling you this happened and that happened You as the DM decide what happened and what didn't happen. You're the referee, and it's your responsibility to lay out the rules where this is concerned. I have a hard time remembering any "walls" that come packaged with the FRCS; beyond that, it's up to you if any "walls" are introduced. 3. More to know and explore, different themes that focus on us rather than them I don't know how long y'all been gaming for. I've been gaming in Faerun since the early '90s, and I still haven't touched more than 30-35% of the Realms. You know why? 'Cause the stretch of land between the Sword Coast and the Dragon Coast is about as big as the one between San Fransisco and Miami. Even with magic, it should be the feat of a lifetime to see everything there is in Faerun. Different themes? There's something to the tune of dozens of cultures, races, and nations--often with more words associated to them than entire real countries. If you rushed through the Realms, like a lot of younger/newer gaming groups, perhaps this is your chance to throttle back and start a more detailed, thought-out campaign. Sure, Teleport makes it easy for people to visit more places, faster. It's up to you, the DM, though, to dictate the pace and tempo of the story. Your players may not wish to play in Faerun again. Take what constructive criticism you can, and work on improving your overral DM'ing skills or management of the game. If you don't change anything, I guarantee you that Eberron (which, as a young setting has far less detail and "filler") will grow old for them as well. Please don't take any of the above as insults or bashing. I'm merely trying to point out a lot of common mistakes that my friends and I made as well. Yeah, I too liked the idea of having some "heavy" NPC show up and shoot the [expletive] with the PCs, just for the novelty factor. And I'm sure all of us at some point did the whole "Well, that was Thay in an evening (or two)--moving on!" bit.
SCMrks 01-04-05, 10:12 AM	My group just started a new campaign in September and as the DM I thought long and carefully about what world to use. (I don't homebrew because of a 3 hour daily commute, 10 hour work day, and a wife and 3 kids when I get home.) We have always played in the Realms since it first came out and I thought I would give my group something new. So I looked at Greyhawk, Kingdoms of Kalamar, and Eberron. Eberron really got my interest and after 2 months of consideration I chose the Realms again. Eberron looked nice at first but in the end it wasn't what my group and I like. We like our D&D games to feel more like Lord of the Rings instead of Star Wars. So I would suggest that you and your group consider how you want your world to feel. One thing we could not get past in Eberron is that the elves worship the dead and make their bodies look like corpses, or are war hungry killers and the orcs are the nature loving druids trying to guard the world against evil. Divine spells are granted by belief instead of by a god so and schizofrenic who believes he is a god can grant himself spells. The main city is too much like Corusant. And the dragonmark houses are like Wal-Marts by monopolising a business and driving mom & pop shops out. Constructs that take damage as if they had organs and tissue. Trains, planes, and even cars. Now the Realms has things we don't like too, ie, Times of Trouble, Spellfire, Chosen, destruction of Tilverton. But it is easier to leave those things out of the realms than change the foundation of Eberron. So it is left to you and your group to decide what you want your world to feel like and pick the one that fits your preferences.
BrianCritchley 01-04-05, 07:16 PM	well the easiest way would simply to say you perfer to run FR. and invite one of them to run ebberon.if they don't step up to the plate well.. the DM "has to run something he can run" if one of em does. try doing a 1 week FR, 1 week Ebberon deal.
coldflame 01-05-05, 02:19 AM	Mix them, give half the gods from each world and make the terrian in your 'own' image. Mountians that reach ten miles high (the world is the size of Jupiter or bigger), oceans that never seem to end and if they do, it continues elsewhere, where dragons could even cower down to the smallest insect. Or try doing both or one of the other.
Loiosh 01-05-05, 07:16 PM	I think I lucked out to be a part of a good sized group of 7 (myself and 6 others) where we rotate among 4 DMs. Currently, I run the FR, another runs a Shanara campaign, and two others run their own worlds (though one did just buy the Eberron campaign so who knows what is next). Personally, I love having the different options and flavors from week to week. As for "walls" and the like in the FR, I don't see it. Nothing in the books is "required" if you, the DM, doesn't want it to be. Now yes, I'm fortunate (to a degree) that my PCs never really read many of the novels, so I can introduce what I want and when I want it. But at the same time it can be a pain to not have them see the flavor from those same novels in the game world. If your biggest issue is the chosens and high level NPCs, then run a campaign in an area set away from all that. Go to an underdeveloped area like the lake of Steam and Border Kingdoms and then let them go to town. that way YOU get to determine who they interact with rather than worrying about anything else. And if they want to run Eberron too, then great. Maybe two different DMs, each running their own. Gives you more time to create between sessions, and (if you're like me) you might even be inspired by the other DMs and want to take something they did and twist it. But enjoy it, and give it a shot.