Financial Difficulties? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Financial Difficulties? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Melfius
02-05-04, 10:21 PM I've played D&D (mostly Realms) for, oh, about 23 years. I have an EXTENSIVE library of D&D books, boxed sets, suppliments, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

I've played the old boxed sets (remeber when elf was a class?) I played 1st and 2nd Editions of AD&D. While I had my doubts about 3rd Edition, what with all it's rules changes, I decided to plod along and give it a shot. Heck, I was even front and center in a pic posted on Wizards' website, purchasing my 3E PHB at GenCon as it was released!

Now, we have 3.5. As of this date, I currently own the 3.5 PHB. That's it. One measley, crummy book.

'Why?' you ask? Simple - Lack of funding. Let's face it, these books are getting EXPENSIVE!

This is really starting to bum me out. I have even begun to pass on gaming with my regular group.

I love the game. I love the Realms! I own nearly every novel printed for the Realms. But, again, I am sadly lacking when it comes to the most recent ones.

Last month, I sat down at my trusty PC and added up the cost of what I'm missing (based on what I would like to buy) and the total was a staggering $1,500 (US)!

Is anyone else suffering from the same drought of resources that I am? Does anyone have any suggestions? Is anyone else losing their desire to play because of this?

Just curious.
King_Sloth
02-05-04, 11:25 PM :confused: Yes, you are not alone. I'm starting to think WotC stands for W.e O.nly T.hink C.ash .Their parent compnay, edited for inappropriate content. They keep churnning out books at an enormus rate with no regard for price, value, or the little guy.
I hate to say it, but for as bad as they were I miss TSR .

:cool:
Your best bet for good deals on books is online auction. Pick one. The biggest usually has several auctions of multiple books at a reduced rate. It is how I aquired most of my collection. If you want, message me where I can email you said auctions.

Or just use the 'Search' function on the auction site.

Good Luck.

:king:
Aragathor
02-05-04, 11:30 PM I'm not losing my desire to play, but I'm cursing loud when I see the prices on new books.
The average handbook price is really hitting the roof, even if the price is a bit "lower" because of the dollar -> euro exchange rate.
I don't complain 'bout the novel price, it's O.K.

Oh well let's simply thank Hasbro for such :censored: prices.
Herr Doktor
02-06-04, 12:28 AM I guess I've been dealing with it well enough, thanks to people in my group who work in book shops and get a 30% discount on cover price.

Amazon and other places get some nice discounts as well, it's not THAT unbearable.

I don't work at all and I still manage to get enough money together to get the books I really want. I own most of the 3rd edition/3.5 realms stuff excepting the few adventures that were released and magic and races of Faerūn since a player bought both of those and they are always here anyway.
Aragathor
02-06-04, 01:49 AM Well if you don't have other interests than D&D than you can manage to buy most of the stuff.
But if you have other hobbies then you have problems.
I stopped to go to the cinema because of D&D, but I would be damned if I didn't support a few bands that I like or drink a round in a pub with friends.
BTW I buy my books in online stores that are cheaper than Amazon.
I don't work at all
I work my ass off and I still have cash shortages, so I wonder where does your cash come from?
Mana from heaven perhaps?
Capn Charlie
02-06-04, 02:21 AM Now hastings, THAT is the place to work. You only pay 5% above cost. It is just insane. I did the math and I could work there and actually take home more money even if I made 3 bucks an hour less.
Mystery Man
02-06-04, 09:56 AM I agree the books are so expensive any more that you can't not buy them from a huge discount store like Amazon or Wally World (my name for walmart). Nowadays I am very careful in my selection of books to buy.
Lashan
02-06-04, 07:14 PM I was angry when 3.5 was released. I think it was way too soon to make us all shell out some cash. I hear that there is 4.0 out there. While I know that there eventually will be a new edition, I will be angry if it comes out within the next few years.

I've also seen a lot of 3rd party books out there that I have found to be good. There are a lot that I want of those, too.
Autosponge
02-06-04, 08:50 PM There are things you can do to defray costs. Some of these are going to be frowned on by WTC but honestly, it's the only thing some of us can do--the alternative is to not play. I do not endorse any of these methods and personally only know about them as second-hand. I always go to my favorite store and buy all of my books at full retail.

1. Use the 3.5 upgrade docs instead of the actual books. These are a free download from the website.

2. Start a gaming group whose members chip in for a shared library of books. This way members can pool their resources to purchase everything on the market and share access to them. This usually only works with a good store owner who has some security for the books (with major storage space) and who is inclined to be treated like a librarian from time to time.

3. Sell off everything you have in hardcopy that you can if you can get more than $5 for and has been converted to PDF. Use that money to collect the e-version from sites like RPGNOW.com.

4. Combine the efforts of 2 and 3 (this hinges on breaking copyright). Have the group pool their collections and sell off duplicate hardcopies or things that can be replaced by a PDF. Share the PDF resources just like the hardcopy resources. (If the PDFs are copied and distributed you are in violation, but if they are stored on a central PC such as the library scenario you're ok).

edited for innapropriate content

6. Find cheaper campaign source material.

7. Use only 2nd edition campaign source material that has been updated by devoted fans to 3.0 or 3.5 (like the DragonLance, Planescape, or Birthright settings) and therefore public domain (or close enough to avoid prosecution). Again, 2nd ed material is available for free download in a lot of cases or $5 per item in other cases.

8. Sell plasma.

9. If you're a DM, collect $1 from each player each game session for the purposes of expanding your library. It will take some time, but in no time you'll have more books and everyone benefits from your expanded library.

10. Become a dealer, get your books at a discount and sell books to others to break even.

11. Work at your local gaming store under the table for product instead of cash. As you earn credit for much needed gaming materials, your store owner has access to a cheap labor source--almost as good as exploited children in Indonesia without all the bad publicity from such actions.

edited for innapropriate content

edited for innapropriate content

14. Find it used.
Melfius
02-06-04, 10:18 PM AutoSponge, you have got to be the SHADIEST person who's ever posted here!

:sad:
Jambi
02-06-04, 11:52 PM At least Autosponge is resourceful! Really $1500 is not all that much when you get down to it. Sit down and figure out how much fun, enjoyment and entertainment that you have had, then compare that same amount of time to say...movies and the cost for that. I think in the end you win out with any RPG book. Besides I've spent over 10k on SCUBA equipment and i'm not complaining yet.
Ranger REG
02-07-04, 02:29 AM Originally posted by Melfius

Is anyone else suffering from the same drought of resources that I am? Does anyone have any suggestions? Is anyone else losing their desire to play because of this?

Just curious.
The thoughts have occured to me every day, but for a brief moment. I mean what with my fund also going into upgrading my computer which I am still playing catch-up on the latest gear, then there are the computer game that everybody are raving about or latest DVD...

Sighs...

Then again, sometimes, you're at a comfort level to decide, you don't have to get the latest product or material. Just DIY.

Of course, you could try to upgrade your income by getting a better job position at your workplace or somewhere else.

I've been there. I just make do with what I have.
Ardent
02-07-04, 07:32 AM While Autosponge hit most of the really good ideas...the one I've found works best is to make friendly with a hobby store owner, and offer to run games for beginners if you can get use of the shelf copies of his books.

Collecting money is usually a given with gaming groups (we call it pizza fund)...usually $5 a head for pizza and beverage...almost without fail there's some leftover...that goes into the "buy more books with which to play" fund.

Be really careful about buying doubles of books (except the core rulebooks) because this is usually a huge waste of money. Get used to sharing...and invest in a photocopier (photocopying the pages you need to write your adventure sessions is pretty common practice amongst veteran GMs, as it saves them shuffling through a pile of books).

In all: don't let yourself be tricked into becoming the uncaring consumer. Companies will love you, but you'll hate being broke. ;)
WizO_BigSister
02-07-04, 02:03 PM I have a couple of requests for you all. When you talk about the actions of the various designers, editors, executives, authors and other assorted WotC staff please don't assign motives as outright statements. You do not know why they do things, you can only guess. Saying "I think that maybe they published this because of x, y or z" or "it looks as if this may have happened because the designers wanted to yis ok. However it is not to say "The executors made these changes because of x"... especially if what you are claiming to be fact is highly uncomplimentary.

Secondly it is against the Code of Conduct to promote any illegal activities on the board, and this includes breaking copyright. This is not merely a case of WotC protedting it's profit ... this rule applies no matter who is producing and selling the material.

Of course you are allowed to express your negative reactions to the number of books and the price you have to pay. However you are not entitled to claim as fact your opinions about the motives of any person or company; or to promote breaking copyright. If you can't obey these two simple requests I will have to close the thread.
Selcar Of Selendar
02-07-04, 02:28 PM Well i for one haft to say this. Now i see both points of this thred, yes books are hella costly. But compaired to the 2E books that i have seen, and thats not that many.

Now i started out with 3E but my DM was a 2E vet who never played 3E at all, so it sucked. The 3.5E bok cost so much more now adays manily because of how much more work is put into them. An do i agree the price is high but i'm 16 and many people in my group are 16 as well, theres like 1 17 year old. But we have evry 3E and 3.5 book there is now. And only 3 of us have jobs but we got most of the book befor we had them. And no mommy and daddy did not help us we got them by are selfs.

But i dont have bills to pay and all that stuff but still Wizards is a company and they need to make money even is it means makeing books cost a little more then they really should. And as my graddaddy always said " If you cant buy them...Download them"
:smirk:
Melfius
02-07-04, 02:58 PM Originally posted by WizO_BigSister
Secondly it is against the Code of Conduct to promote any illegal activities on the board, and this includes breaking copyright. This is not merely a case of WotC protedting it's profit ... this rule applies no matter who is producing and selling the material.

Thanks, BigSis! I was trying to say as much without being rude, but that's what I was getting at. PLEASE don't close my thread!:angel:

Anyways, as it stands, I work two decent jobs, but I also have a wife, a duaghter (4-year-old named Arilyn, go fig! :D ), a mortgage, two car payments, 2 cats, a fistful of fish (no, I didn't measure them!), two hermit crabs, and various other bills and payments. Money is TIGHT! Also, my dear, sweet wifey doesn't exactly understand my hobby, and has a hard time justifying me spending any money on such frivolous things. At leats she respects my need for novels. I'd probably have a stroke with anything to read!

I liked the idea of e-Bay. I have bought things from there previously, and (stupid me!) the thought hadn't even crossed my mind!

Thanks, Everyone, for the ideas. At least, the legal ones! Any new ideas are still wlecome!
Melfius
02-07-04, 03:04 PM Hey! A thought just occurred to me!

Why doesn't Wizards (or Hasbro, whichever you want to call them) start a group, similar to Waldenbooks' Preferred Reader club, where, for an annual fee, we could get a discount on WotC products?

I'd be willing to spend $10 a year for, say, a 10%-15% discount. Anyone else think this is a good idea?
Autosponge
02-07-04, 05:56 PM I got a stern warning for trying to be helpful here (and I knew it was coming). So, I'm done with this thread. But rest assured, where there's a will, there's a game.
WizO_BigSister
02-07-04, 09:04 PM Autosponge since you have made this issue public, I will reply in public. I have not stopped you from being helpful ... all your helpful suggestions were left intact. The illegal suggestions (which are not helpful) were deleted. As these suggestions were a blatant breach of the Code of Conduct and the law you were given exactly the same standard official warning as everone else who breaks the CoC gets.
Autosponge
02-07-04, 10:18 PM It's ok, I understand. Like I said, I fully expected to get called on it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melfius 02-05-04, 10:21 PM	I've played D&D (mostly Realms) for, oh, about 23 years. I have an EXTENSIVE library of D&D books, boxed sets, suppliments, etc, etc, ad infinitum. I've played the old boxed sets (remeber when elf was a class?) I played 1st and 2nd Editions of AD&D. While I had my doubts about 3rd Edition, what with all it's rules changes, I decided to plod along and give it a shot. Heck, I was even front and center in a pic posted on Wizards' website, purchasing my 3E PHB at GenCon as it was released! Now, we have 3.5. As of this date, I currently own the 3.5 PHB. That's it. One measley, crummy book. 'Why?' you ask? Simple - Lack of funding. Let's face it, these books are getting EXPENSIVE! This is really starting to bum me out. I have even begun to pass on gaming with my regular group. I love the game. I love the Realms! I own nearly every novel printed for the Realms. But, again, I am sadly lacking when it comes to the most recent ones. Last month, I sat down at my trusty PC and added up the cost of what I'm missing (based on what I would like to buy) and the total was a staggering $1,500 (US)! Is anyone else suffering from the same drought of resources that I am? Does anyone have any suggestions? Is anyone else losing their desire to play because of this? Just curious.
King_Sloth 02-05-04, 11:25 PM	:confused: Yes, you are not alone. I'm starting to think WotC stands for W.e O.nly T.hink C.ash .Their parent compnay, edited for inappropriate content. They keep churnning out books at an enormus rate with no regard for price, value, or the little guy. I hate to say it, but for as bad as they were I miss TSR . :cool: Your best bet for good deals on books is online auction. Pick one. The biggest usually has several auctions of multiple books at a reduced rate. It is how I aquired most of my collection. If you want, message me where I can email you said auctions. Or just use the 'Search' function on the auction site. Good Luck. :king:
Aragathor 02-05-04, 11:30 PM	I'm not losing my desire to play, but I'm cursing loud when I see the prices on new books. The average handbook price is really hitting the roof, even if the price is a bit "lower" because of the dollar -> euro exchange rate. I don't complain 'bout the novel price, it's O.K. Oh well let's simply thank Hasbro for such :censored: prices.
Herr Doktor 02-06-04, 12:28 AM	I guess I've been dealing with it well enough, thanks to people in my group who work in book shops and get a 30% discount on cover price. Amazon and other places get some nice discounts as well, it's not THAT unbearable. I don't work at all and I still manage to get enough money together to get the books I really want. I own most of the 3rd edition/3.5 realms stuff excepting the few adventures that were released and magic and races of Faerūn since a player bought both of those and they are always here anyway.
Aragathor 02-06-04, 01:49 AM	Well if you don't have other interests than D&D than you can manage to buy most of the stuff. But if you have other hobbies then you have problems. I stopped to go to the cinema because of D&D, but I would be damned if I didn't support a few bands that I like or drink a round in a pub with friends. BTW I buy my books in online stores that are cheaper than Amazon. I don't work at all I work my ass off and I still have cash shortages, so I wonder where does your cash come from? Mana from heaven perhaps?
Capn Charlie 02-06-04, 02:21 AM	Now hastings, THAT is the place to work. You only pay 5% above cost. It is just insane. I did the math and I could work there and actually take home more money even if I made 3 bucks an hour less.
Mystery Man 02-06-04, 09:56 AM	I agree the books are so expensive any more that you can't not buy them from a huge discount store like Amazon or Wally World (my name for walmart). Nowadays I am very careful in my selection of books to buy.
Lashan 02-06-04, 07:14 PM	I was angry when 3.5 was released. I think it was way too soon to make us all shell out some cash. I hear that there is 4.0 out there. While I know that there eventually will be a new edition, I will be angry if it comes out within the next few years. I've also seen a lot of 3rd party books out there that I have found to be good. There are a lot that I want of those, too.
Autosponge 02-06-04, 08:50 PM	There are things you can do to defray costs. Some of these are going to be frowned on by WTC but honestly, it's the only thing some of us can do--the alternative is to not play. I do not endorse any of these methods and personally only know about them as second-hand. I always go to my favorite store and buy all of my books at full retail. 1. Use the 3.5 upgrade docs instead of the actual books. These are a free download from the website. 2. Start a gaming group whose members chip in for a shared library of books. This way members can pool their resources to purchase everything on the market and share access to them. This usually only works with a good store owner who has some security for the books (with major storage space) and who is inclined to be treated like a librarian from time to time. 3. Sell off everything you have in hardcopy that you can if you can get more than $5 for and has been converted to PDF. Use that money to collect the e-version from sites like RPGNOW.com. 4. Combine the efforts of 2 and 3 (this hinges on breaking copyright). Have the group pool their collections and sell off duplicate hardcopies or things that can be replaced by a PDF. Share the PDF resources just like the hardcopy resources. (If the PDFs are copied and distributed you are in violation, but if they are stored on a central PC such as the library scenario you're ok). edited for innapropriate content 6. Find cheaper campaign source material. 7. Use only 2nd edition campaign source material that has been updated by devoted fans to 3.0 or 3.5 (like the DragonLance, Planescape, or Birthright settings) and therefore public domain (or close enough to avoid prosecution). Again, 2nd ed material is available for free download in a lot of cases or $5 per item in other cases. 8. Sell plasma. 9. If you're a DM, collect $1 from each player each game session for the purposes of expanding your library. It will take some time, but in no time you'll have more books and everyone benefits from your expanded library. 10. Become a dealer, get your books at a discount and sell books to others to break even. 11. Work at your local gaming store under the table for product instead of cash. As you earn credit for much needed gaming materials, your store owner has access to a cheap labor source--almost as good as exploited children in Indonesia without all the bad publicity from such actions. edited for innapropriate content edited for innapropriate content 14. Find it used.
Melfius 02-06-04, 10:18 PM	AutoSponge, you have got to be the SHADIEST person who's ever posted here! :sad:
Jambi 02-06-04, 11:52 PM	At least Autosponge is resourceful! Really $1500 is not all that much when you get down to it. Sit down and figure out how much fun, enjoyment and entertainment that you have had, then compare that same amount of time to say...movies and the cost for that. I think in the end you win out with any RPG book. Besides I've spent over 10k on SCUBA equipment and i'm not complaining yet.
Ranger REG 02-07-04, 02:29 AM	Originally posted by Melfius Is anyone else suffering from the same drought of resources that I am? Does anyone have any suggestions? Is anyone else losing their desire to play because of this? Just curious. The thoughts have occured to me every day, but for a brief moment. I mean what with my fund also going into upgrading my computer which I am still playing catch-up on the latest gear, then there are the computer game that everybody are raving about or latest DVD... Sighs... Then again, sometimes, you're at a comfort level to decide, you don't have to get the latest product or material. Just DIY. Of course, you could try to upgrade your income by getting a better job position at your workplace or somewhere else. I've been there. I just make do with what I have.
Ardent 02-07-04, 07:32 AM	While Autosponge hit most of the really good ideas...the one I've found works best is to make friendly with a hobby store owner, and offer to run games for beginners if you can get use of the shelf copies of his books. Collecting money is usually a given with gaming groups (we call it pizza fund)...usually $5 a head for pizza and beverage...almost without fail there's some leftover...that goes into the "buy more books with which to play" fund. Be really careful about buying doubles of books (except the core rulebooks) because this is usually a huge waste of money. Get used to sharing...and invest in a photocopier (photocopying the pages you need to write your adventure sessions is pretty common practice amongst veteran GMs, as it saves them shuffling through a pile of books). In all: don't let yourself be tricked into becoming the uncaring consumer. Companies will love you, but you'll hate being broke. ;)
WizO_BigSister 02-07-04, 02:03 PM	I have a couple of requests for you all. When you talk about the actions of the various designers, editors, executives, authors and other assorted WotC staff please don't assign motives as outright statements. You do not know why they do things, you can only guess. Saying "I think that maybe they published this because of x, y or z" or "it looks as if this may have happened because the designers wanted to yis ok. However it is not to say "The executors made these changes because of x"... especially if what you are claiming to be fact is highly uncomplimentary. Secondly it is against the Code of Conduct to promote any illegal activities on the board, and this includes breaking copyright. This is not merely a case of WotC protedting it's profit ... this rule applies no matter who is producing and selling the material. Of course you are allowed to express your negative reactions to the number of books and the price you have to pay. However you are not entitled to claim as fact your opinions about the motives of any person or company; or to promote breaking copyright. If you can't obey these two simple requests I will have to close the thread.
Selcar Of Selendar 02-07-04, 02:28 PM	Well i for one haft to say this. Now i see both points of this thred, yes books are hella costly. But compaired to the 2E books that i have seen, and thats not that many. Now i started out with 3E but my DM was a 2E vet who never played 3E at all, so it sucked. The 3.5E bok cost so much more now adays manily because of how much more work is put into them. An do i agree the price is high but i'm 16 and many people in my group are 16 as well, theres like 1 17 year old. But we have evry 3E and 3.5 book there is now. And only 3 of us have jobs but we got most of the book befor we had them. And no mommy and daddy did not help us we got them by are selfs. But i dont have bills to pay and all that stuff but still Wizards is a company and they need to make money even is it means makeing books cost a little more then they really should. And as my graddaddy always said " If you cant buy them...Download them" :smirk:
Melfius 02-07-04, 02:58 PM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister Secondly it is against the Code of Conduct to promote any illegal activities on the board, and this includes breaking copyright. This is not merely a case of WotC protedting it's profit ... this rule applies no matter who is producing and selling the material. Thanks, BigSis! I was trying to say as much without being rude, but that's what I was getting at. PLEASE don't close my thread!:angel: Anyways, as it stands, I work two decent jobs, but I also have a wife, a duaghter (4-year-old named Arilyn, go fig! :D ), a mortgage, two car payments, 2 cats, a fistful of fish (no, I didn't measure them!), two hermit crabs, and various other bills and payments. Money is TIGHT! Also, my dear, sweet wifey doesn't exactly understand my hobby, and has a hard time justifying me spending any money on such frivolous things. At leats she respects my need for novels. I'd probably have a stroke with anything to read! I liked the idea of e-Bay. I have bought things from there previously, and (stupid me!) the thought hadn't even crossed my mind! Thanks, Everyone, for the ideas. At least, the legal ones! Any new ideas are still wlecome!
Melfius 02-07-04, 03:04 PM	Hey! A thought just occurred to me! Why doesn't Wizards (or Hasbro, whichever you want to call them) start a group, similar to Waldenbooks' Preferred Reader club, where, for an annual fee, we could get a discount on WotC products? I'd be willing to spend $10 a year for, say, a 10%-15% discount. Anyone else think this is a good idea?
Autosponge 02-07-04, 05:56 PM	I got a stern warning for trying to be helpful here (and I knew it was coming). So, I'm done with this thread. But rest assured, where there's a will, there's a game.
WizO_BigSister 02-07-04, 09:04 PM	Autosponge since you have made this issue public, I will reply in public. I have not stopped you from being helpful ... all your helpful suggestions were left intact. The illegal suggestions (which are not helpful) were deleted. As these suggestions were a blatant breach of the Code of Conduct and the law you were given exactly the same standard official warning as everone else who breaks the CoC gets.
Autosponge 02-07-04, 10:18 PM	It's ok, I understand. Like I said, I fully expected to get called on it.