First Impressions [Archive] - Wizards Community

First Impressions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Paix
07-20-06, 08:33 PM Greetings everyone,

After a very long break from the game are looking to give it another go and with this in mind, myself and the friend destined to run the campaign are looking to flesh out some villains. Knowing the group is likely to be attracted to dark plots and twists and to a more problem solving oriented game we have picked out groups such as followers of Shar/Cyric, Zhentarim and the occasional unaligned evil as likely puppet-masters, recurring villains and the like.

In order to do them justice and receive some inspiration, we both picked up some older novels of this setting, which featured those villains and they created a bit of confusion for us. Priesthood of the two gods above and the Zhentarim left us with the impression of blundering fools than intelligent schemers.

This is not about the novels and it is to be expected that they focus on the story and the heroes, not portraying every single individual of a domineering organisation but even those in the higher echelons gave the impression of ruthless stupidity rather than malice and intelligence.

Perhaps it is my rushed reading, misinterpreting the purpose of the author or any combination of all of the above.

Well, I have found these boards and thought of putting the question out there. What you suggest as reading for inspiration and accurate portrayal of dastardly villains like the aforementioned, be it a novel or sourcebook/adventure?

As you can understand making it all up is possible but being a bit short on time any material to draw upon would make a return to gaming easier as time is at a premium.

On a sidenote, my experience comes from the beginnings of second edition. I noticed that specialty priests that added a lot of flavour do not seem to exist anymore. Are prestige classes now meant to fit that role? If so could you point me to the direction of the equivalent classes for a specialty priest of Tymora and Mystra?
Red_Wizard
07-20-06, 08:41 PM The Lords of Darkness sourcebook would probably be your hands down, best unbiased bet for reading up on these villians. :)
Paix
07-25-06, 02:39 PM Thank you Red Wizard. I looked at the suggested supplement and will help flesh out some of the things I had in mind.

I assume that it is uncertain whether the specialty priests of the previous rules' edition are now covered by prestige classes.
GothicDan
07-25-06, 02:45 PM Only a few of them, primarily in Faiths and Pantheons (which is a poor shadow of its predecessor, Faiths and Avatars).
Faraer
07-25-06, 03:31 PM Have a look at the "Realmslore" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl) column on wizards.com for inspiration on dastardly plots, especially "Storm Silverhand's Quieter Days" and "Villainous Lures"; and, say, Silverfall and several stories in The Best of the Realms, Book II: The Stories of Ed Greenwood. Be aware that such plots often have multiple aims, and the sources don't always spell them out -- you have to read between the lines. For information on the Zhentarim read Ruins of Zhentil Keep, which incorporates the revealing history from Polyhedron.

Most specialty priests can be recreated with multiclassing, feats and occasional ability swaps; prestige classes merely present an additional option. The dweomerkeeper class is in Faiths and Pantheons.
dragonheart
07-25-06, 04:48 PM In order to do them justice and receive some inspiration, we both picked up some older novels of this setting, which featured those villains and they created a bit of confusion for us. Priesthood of the two gods above and the Zhentarim left us with the impression of blundering fools than intelligent schemers.

this was a apparently a policy of TSR (and to a lesser extent WotC) - good had to triumph and evil had to look stupid. more recent novels and the sourcebooks from 2e and 3.xe are better for getting a sense of the true evil and intelligence of these folks. think of the novels (good and bad) as basically their stories of the days when they went to bed and banged their heads against the wall wondering "what was I ever thinking?????? How could I have ever been that Stupid!!!!!!????? :P then plot them at their normal evil best! :D
Paix
07-26-06, 07:28 PM I had a chance to read through the Realmslore column. Interesting pieces. I'll track down the suggested novels for further inspiration. Ruins of Zhentil Keep is indeed good. A lot has heppened since then apparently (going by the new guide to Faerun) but that will not be a hindrance.

I was also able to look at the new gods' book. It is different... I saw the prestige classes, which I suppose are to substitute the specialty priests. I am a bit ambivalent since a few of them can easily be reproduced with some feats instead of making it a prestige class. Not quite the same flavour but that may be the result of the change over, as I will be playing a for the first time with the new rules. Practice will tell.

As for the good having to triumph, it is a necessity of the heroic valour. That was to be expected. I just expected the journey there to be a bit more challenging. Having said that, I admit my opinion came from a limited reading of a select few older novels and since I was looking for something in particular my choice was simply wrong. I thought originaly the novels as supplementing the game supplements when they are clearly not. So I did approach them with a few misconceptions.

My thanks to everyone for the pointers.
Teh_username
07-26-06, 11:21 PM There was (briefly) a column in Dragon magazine that showed how to re-create the specialty priests of 2e via certain multiclass and Domain choices (with a bit of "design" explanation behind it as well). Don't think it ran very long, though.

Does anyone else remember?
GothicDan
07-26-06, 11:34 PM I think in large part there's no way to really convert 2E Specialty Priests to 3E. Even the Specialty Priest PrCs printed have little to do with the original classes (Stormlord, for example - uh, absolutely NOTHING like the original class!).

All we can aim for is similar theme, sadly.
Faraer
07-27-06, 07:43 AM Although we're trying to cite discrete sources -- and the ones you've already read may be more useful than you think if you read between the lines -- you're dealing with a complex matter that's represented throughout Realmslore.

Why set your campaign in the 'current' Realms? Ten or twenty years earlier is (in my view) a much more credible and compelling setting.Does anyone else remember?"Faiths of Faerūn" articles have appeared from #284 to #322 and it's still, as far as we know, an ongoing irregular column. The first instalment presented the original idea of only needing prestige classes occasionally, but they took over the column due, we guess, to their perceived popularity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paix 07-20-06, 08:33 PM	Greetings everyone, After a very long break from the game are looking to give it another go and with this in mind, myself and the friend destined to run the campaign are looking to flesh out some villains. Knowing the group is likely to be attracted to dark plots and twists and to a more problem solving oriented game we have picked out groups such as followers of Shar/Cyric, Zhentarim and the occasional unaligned evil as likely puppet-masters, recurring villains and the like. In order to do them justice and receive some inspiration, we both picked up some older novels of this setting, which featured those villains and they created a bit of confusion for us. Priesthood of the two gods above and the Zhentarim left us with the impression of blundering fools than intelligent schemers. This is not about the novels and it is to be expected that they focus on the story and the heroes, not portraying every single individual of a domineering organisation but even those in the higher echelons gave the impression of ruthless stupidity rather than malice and intelligence. Perhaps it is my rushed reading, misinterpreting the purpose of the author or any combination of all of the above. Well, I have found these boards and thought of putting the question out there. What you suggest as reading for inspiration and accurate portrayal of dastardly villains like the aforementioned, be it a novel or sourcebook/adventure? As you can understand making it all up is possible but being a bit short on time any material to draw upon would make a return to gaming easier as time is at a premium. On a sidenote, my experience comes from the beginnings of second edition. I noticed that specialty priests that added a lot of flavour do not seem to exist anymore. Are prestige classes now meant to fit that role? If so could you point me to the direction of the equivalent classes for a specialty priest of Tymora and Mystra?
Red_Wizard 07-20-06, 08:41 PM	The Lords of Darkness sourcebook would probably be your hands down, best unbiased bet for reading up on these villians. :)
Paix 07-25-06, 02:39 PM	Thank you Red Wizard. I looked at the suggested supplement and will help flesh out some of the things I had in mind. I assume that it is uncertain whether the specialty priests of the previous rules' edition are now covered by prestige classes.
GothicDan 07-25-06, 02:45 PM	Only a few of them, primarily in Faiths and Pantheons (which is a poor shadow of its predecessor, Faiths and Avatars).
Faraer 07-25-06, 03:31 PM	Have a look at the "Realmslore" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl) column on wizards.com for inspiration on dastardly plots, especially "Storm Silverhand's Quieter Days" and "Villainous Lures"; and, say, Silverfall and several stories in The Best of the Realms, Book II: The Stories of Ed Greenwood. Be aware that such plots often have multiple aims, and the sources don't always spell them out -- you have to read between the lines. For information on the Zhentarim read Ruins of Zhentil Keep, which incorporates the revealing history from Polyhedron. Most specialty priests can be recreated with multiclassing, feats and occasional ability swaps; prestige classes merely present an additional option. The dweomerkeeper class is in Faiths and Pantheons.
dragonheart 07-25-06, 04:48 PM	In order to do them justice and receive some inspiration, we both picked up some older novels of this setting, which featured those villains and they created a bit of confusion for us. Priesthood of the two gods above and the Zhentarim left us with the impression of blundering fools than intelligent schemers. this was a apparently a policy of TSR (and to a lesser extent WotC) - good had to triumph and evil had to look stupid. more recent novels and the sourcebooks from 2e and 3.xe are better for getting a sense of the true evil and intelligence of these folks. think of the novels (good and bad) as basically their stories of the days when they went to bed and banged their heads against the wall wondering "what was I ever thinking?????? How could I have ever been that Stupid!!!!!!????? :P then plot them at their normal evil best! :D
Paix 07-26-06, 07:28 PM	I had a chance to read through the Realmslore column. Interesting pieces. I'll track down the suggested novels for further inspiration. Ruins of Zhentil Keep is indeed good. A lot has heppened since then apparently (going by the new guide to Faerun) but that will not be a hindrance. I was also able to look at the new gods' book. It is different... I saw the prestige classes, which I suppose are to substitute the specialty priests. I am a bit ambivalent since a few of them can easily be reproduced with some feats instead of making it a prestige class. Not quite the same flavour but that may be the result of the change over, as I will be playing a for the first time with the new rules. Practice will tell. As for the good having to triumph, it is a necessity of the heroic valour. That was to be expected. I just expected the journey there to be a bit more challenging. Having said that, I admit my opinion came from a limited reading of a select few older novels and since I was looking for something in particular my choice was simply wrong. I thought originaly the novels as supplementing the game supplements when they are clearly not. So I did approach them with a few misconceptions. My thanks to everyone for the pointers.
Teh_username 07-26-06, 11:21 PM	There was (briefly) a column in Dragon magazine that showed how to re-create the specialty priests of 2e via certain multiclass and Domain choices (with a bit of "design" explanation behind it as well). Don't think it ran very long, though. Does anyone else remember?
GothicDan 07-26-06, 11:34 PM	I think in large part there's no way to really convert 2E Specialty Priests to 3E. Even the Specialty Priest PrCs printed have little to do with the original classes (Stormlord, for example - uh, absolutely NOTHING like the original class!). All we can aim for is similar theme, sadly.
Faraer 07-27-06, 07:43 AM	Although we're trying to cite discrete sources -- and the ones you've already read may be more useful than you think if you read between the lines -- you're dealing with a complex matter that's represented throughout Realmslore. Why set your campaign in the 'current' Realms? Ten or twenty years earlier is (in my view) a much more credible and compelling setting.Does anyone else remember?"Faiths of Faerūn" articles have appeared from #284 to #322 and it's still, as far as we know, an ongoing irregular column. The first instalment presented the original idea of only needing prestige classes occasionally, but they took over the column due, we guess, to their perceived popularity.