Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 03-12-08, 03:59 PM	Basically, I think we should show some enthusiasm for the changes. crickets chirp Or not, but I think a thread where you share what you'd LIKE to see or what ideas would be wonderfully interesting to you in the setting would be. The only ground rules for suggestions are this... * You must do it within the context of the changes that have already been announced. * You must numerically number it with the suggestions above you. Here's my list of things I'd LOVE to see incorporated into the new Realms. 1. Nobanion becomes an Exarch of Torm. 2. The Zhentariam are treated as genuinely scary individuals whom are masters of a thousand plots throughout the whole of the Realms. 3. The Shades aren't treated as the bees knees of wizards or connivers. 4. The Red Wizards return to being the Scary Foreign Wizards everyone worries about. 5. We get a coherent list of 3-5 or so Knighthoods in the Realm as opposed to the ill-defined versions of before. 6. Azuth remains a god. 7. Elminster becomes a Chosen of Azuth. 8. The Fallen Seven Sisters become Exarchs of Azuth. 9. The Followers of Set are everywhere in the Realms. 10. Tyr continues to exist, either as an Exarch or a God in his own right. 11. If Tyr doesn't exist, Bahamut takes over for him. 12. Amaunator stays NG. 13. A New Triad exists of Torm, Bahamut, and Amaunator. 14. Khelben is also made an Exarch of Azuth. 15. Foril's heir to the Throne is a Woman. 16. The heirs of King Dragonsbane are utter :censored: and unworthy of their lineage.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 07:07 PM	17. Finder Wyvernspur, with so much change in the world, ascends from a no-name demideity, to a full-fledge deity. 18. The details concerning Mystra's murder are elaborated upon. 19. The magical wards binding Calim and Memnon shatter during the Spellplague. 20. The Duergar become 'evil' again. 21. Prince Lamruil finds his consort, Maura. 22. The Para- and Quasi- Elemental Planes make a 'return' in the Forgotten Realms' cosmology. 23. The Nilshai invasion of the Sildeyuir ends, and the Star Elves, along with their realm, return to relative obscurity. 24. Imperial Cormyr makes an alliance with Shou Lung, and as a result, the Shou are more visible and active on Faerūn.
MarkusTay63 03-12-08, 07:50 PM	I have a problem with the color of fecal matter. Brown is so last millenium... Can't we have bright, vibrant colors in our new, fantastical Realms? I'm thinking maybe a rather lovely shade of Cerulean.... ;)
ywhtptgtfo 03-12-08, 08:08 PM	25. Halruua is revived 26. More coverage on Halruua 27. Imaskar, Miyeritar, and Myth Drannor are gone 28. Lolth and the Seldarine start fighting for real 29. No more on Creator Races
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-12-08, 08:48 PM	3. The Shades aren't treated as the bees knees of wizards or connivers. Seconded. 30. Shar isn't the "it girl" of evil anymore.
Dark Wizard 03-12-08, 10:20 PM	31. Helm returns in some form, either a full resurrection or another appropriate candidate rises to take his place with roughly the same portfolios and the same pragmatic outlook with the occasional streak of good or evil. Leave the niche even if someone else fills it. 32. Up the Red Knight's status. 33. De-power the Chosen but keep as many of them around as possible. Make them struggle and live through the times, give them an interesting journey. 34. Tone down the constant return and revival of ancient empires. Their allure stems from their ruined, long dead status. They are the mysteries of the setting, reveal them too much and too often, the setting loses it's atmosphere. 35. Don't let Hoar fade to some semi-divine servant. Do something good with him. 36. Keep Cyric weakened. Make his imprisonment mean something. Throw in some mystical divine rules and ancient backstory on that concept. 37. Don't make Cyric the Iuz or Tharizidun of the Realms. In fact try to stay away from the singular uber-evil being so often found in other settings. Spread evil around, make it ever present and varied. 38. Don't do the above to Shar, Bane, Talos, Lolth or any number of evil deities. *Too late for this one, so I will not number it. Rather than rip off Dragonmarks with the Spellscars, they should have arisen as a spellcasting tradition. If such a mark system were to develop, given FR's history and vibe, it probably should have been a magical tradition with an interesting history, not something that just arises.
Charles Phipps 03-12-08, 10:34 PM	Remember, the thread's first rule is not asking them to change anything they've already established.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 10:37 PM	-Another one: 39. Let something happen with the Saurials. Kill them, make them prominent...Just don't forget about them and/or ignore them anymore!
Dark Wizard 03-12-08, 10:42 PM	Remember, the thread's first rule is not asking them to change anything they've already established. None of what I requested need break the new Realms. Even the unnumbered one. ;)
Charles Phipps 03-12-08, 10:44 PM	True, though bringing back helm pushes it. 40. Confirm that Alias survived. 41. Confirm that Kyriani survived (and is still sexy!)
Dark Wizard 03-12-08, 10:49 PM	Thus the emphasis on words like the niche, role, portfolios, outlook, candidate, etc. Helm coming back as Helm is probably impossible, but I would still like to see someone Helm-like take over his role. I think such a figure would really fit in well with the new Unaligned tag.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-12-08, 11:03 PM	42. Keep Maztica, just move it to a different location on Toril. 43. Grey dwarves evil again, please. EDIT: Already said. Ignore. 44. EDIT: 43? Qilue and sisters become chosen of Azuth. EDIT2: Already said. Ignore.
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 11:06 PM	-Jaia's mention of Maztica made me think of this one: 45. We know that, supposedly, Ed is going to be revealing details about Anchorome (which, technically, should have vanished alongside Maztica, but who's counting?). I hope, hope, hope, hope that the 'official' version of Anchorome does not resemble Ed's original idea of a whole bunch of small, interconnected/independent dungeons. I'd like to see it recieve a bit more 'depth'.
Dark Wizard 03-12-08, 11:47 PM	I'll agree with #45.
Meldread 03-13-08, 12:03 AM	Ditto with #45.
SATA 03-14-08, 01:25 AM	46. In case there's no Lathander for 4e then I would love to see him stay and be apart from Amaunator, making them two separate deities. 47. In case The Lady Penitent Trilogy don't fix it, I want to see a full fledged and well versed Drow Pantheon, an improvement of the later.
Keldar 03-14-08, 02:50 AM	48. No more Realms Shaking Events that are promptly ignored by other supliments and novels. If your going to have major events, do us the curtosy of expounding upon the fallout. 49. Use some space sketching out details of the far flung Realms. Al Quadim and Kara Tur (sp?) could use at least a few paragraphs early on. 50. Don't just drop old story lines, end them. Give us resolution so we can move on.
MarkusTay63 03-14-08, 03:04 AM	45. We know that, supposedly, Ed is going to be revealing details about Anchorome (which, technically, should have vanished alongside Maztica, but who's counting?). I hope, hope, hope, hope that the 'official' version of Anchorome does not resemble Ed's original idea of a whole bunch of small, interconnected/independent dungeons. I'd like to see it recieve a bit more 'depth'.It can be both - A long chain of island about 20-50 miles off the coast. that reconciles Ed's Campaign to the world map quite well. At least, thats what I am hoping for. 51. Stop CHANGING stuff - if something isn't good, FIX IT, don't just toss it out with yesterdays trash and insert something new. This is the Forgotten Realms, NOT MR. Potato Head! :(
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 11:31 AM	It can be both - A long chain of island about 20-50 miles off the coast. that reconciles Ed's Campaign to the world map quite well. At least, thats what I am hoping for. -I have no problem if the continent consists of, or has, a bunch of islands. I am just hoping for a little more depth than "each island has a dungeon".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-14-08, 12:18 PM	47. In case The Lady Penitent Trilogy don't fix it, I want to see a full fledged and well versed Drow Pantheon, an improvement of the later. I don't mean to burst your bubble (or send the thread off-topic), but it seems to me like the point of the LP trilogy is to get rid of the drow pantheon. The designers are going for less gods overall, and I think giving the drow another pantheon would go against that. Not saying I agree that the drow shouldn't have a pantheon, though--I liked it the way it was.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-14-08, 12:21 PM	Theis is the Forgotten Realms, NOT MR. Potato Head! :( Oh, but it is! It's Mr. Potata Head--and his bucket of *parts*!:rofl:
SATA 03-14-08, 01:03 PM	I don't mean to burst your bubble (or send the thread off-topic), but it seems to me like the point of the LP trilogy is to get rid of the drow pantheon. The designers are going for less gods overall, and I think giving the drow another pantheon would go against that. Not saying I agree that the drow shouldn't have a pantheon, though--I liked it the way it was. I know, but I still have some hope.:(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-14-08, 01:11 PM	I know, but I still have some hope.:( Lucky you, I don't.;)
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 01:55 PM	35. Don't let Hoar fade to some semi-divine servant. Do something good with him. /Signed
Charles Phipps 03-14-08, 02:18 PM	-I have no problem if the continent consists of, or has, a bunch of islands. I am just hoping for a little more depth than "each island has a dungeon". The World's Biggest Dungeon
MarkusTay63 03-14-08, 03:10 PM	All connected below ground, but with multiple entrances/exits on the surface? I could dig that.... :) Just imagine your players chagrin when they get away from the 'beasties', only to find that the island they exited on is not the same one their ship is at. :devil:
Khaelieth 03-14-08, 03:19 PM	All connected below ground, but with multiple entrances/exits on the surface? I could dig that.... :) Just imagine your players chagrin when they get away from the 'beasties', only to find that the island they exited on is not the same one their ship is at. :devil: That's the Underdark, innit?
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 03:43 PM	The World's Biggest Dungeon -Ugh, shoot me now.
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 03:54 PM	That's the Underdark, innit? Truly. Last I look that was the Underdark.
Charles Phipps 03-14-08, 03:55 PM	Come on, I can't have been the only one thinking it.
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 03:59 PM	Come on, I can't have been the only one thinking it. -Actually, since this is 4e, it should be The World's Coolest Dungeon.
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 04:01 PM	-Actually, since this is 4e, it should be The World's Coolest Dungeon. Alright... But there better be some pretty hot clubs in this "Dungeon". And if the Drinks and music suck, I'm not going back. Oh, wait... Wrong dungeon...
Charles Phipps 03-14-08, 04:02 PM	White Wolf already did Dungeons with pale Goths that think they're vampires and too much Metal.
MarkusTay63 03-14-08, 04:06 PM	Stuff we fans would LIKE to see changed for 4E The FR Design Team.
MarkusTay63 03-14-08, 04:07 PM	-Actually, since this is 4e, it should be The World's Coolest, Most Awesomist, X-treme Dungeon.Corrected. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 04:09 PM	Corrected. ;) -Yeah, you're right. 'Cool' just doesn't have the same flare it had a few months ago...
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 04:11 PM	Stuff we fans would LIKE to see changed for 4E The FR Design Team. Only if it's an improvement... Knowing our luck, we'll get someone worse. White Wolf already did Dungeons with pale Goths that think they're vampires and too much Metal. Huh, I'll keep that in mind. Granted, I only go to those places for one reason. Entertainment. Kinda like going to Savanna and watching drunks stumble around for St. Patric's day. :P
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 04:13 PM	Huh, I'll keep that in mind. Granted, I only go to those places for one reason. Entertainment. Kinda like going to Savanna and watching drunks stumble around for St. Patric's day. :P -Savannah, Georgia? Yeah, I'm sure there's a whole bunch of Irish people there...
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 04:19 PM	-Savannah, Georgia? Yeah, I'm sure there's a whole bunch of Irish people there... They dyed the river green one year if I recall... And it's not Irish so much as alot of collage kids.
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 04:29 PM	They dyed the river green one year if I recall... And it's not Irish so much as alot of collage kids. -Never actually been there. When I went to Orlando a few years ago, via Amtrack, all I remember of Savannah was that the train station consisted basically of a single building in ill-repair, and that the entire town/village/city/whatever it is looked like a scene out of a Western movie.
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 04:57 PM	-Never actually been there. When I went to Orlando a few years ago, via Amtrack, all I remember of Savannah was that the train station consisted basically of a single building in ill-repair, and that the entire town/village/city/whatever it is looked like a scene out of a Western movie. I don't doubt it, we Southerners are like that.
JohnnieBurgess 03-14-08, 07:44 PM	5.2% of Savannah's pop has Irish ancestors: http://www.citytowninfo.com/places/georgia/savannah -Savannah, Georgia? Yeah, I'm sure there's a whole bunch of Irish people there...
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 08:48 PM	5.2% of Savannah's pop has Irish ancestors: http://www.citytowninfo.com/places/georgia/savannah -I rest my point, then. ;)
JaiaDrottsingr 03-15-08, 11:07 PM	I don't doubt it, we Southerners are like that. Not in Houston we aren't. You don't get any further south in the good old Continental United States Of America than Texas. We aren't in the southwest, nor the southeast. Just the south.
SmartPaladin 03-15-08, 11:14 PM	Not in Houston we aren't. You don't get any further south in the good old Continental United States Of America than Texas. We aren't in the southwest, nor the southeast. Just the south. I love you Texans. Your always good for a chuckles and a fight. :P
MarkusTay63 03-16-08, 02:32 AM	Don't mock Texas, its one of only two states that were once their own countries. Of course, Hawaii was a Kingdom, making it so much cooler. :P
JaiaDrottsingr 03-16-08, 07:59 PM	Don't mock Texas, it only one of two states that were once there own countries. Of course, Hawaii was a Kingdom, making it so much cooler. :P Well, Texas is still bigger than France. So there. Also: Population of Houston > Pops. of Montana, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington combined.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-16-08, 08:01 PM	I love you Texans. Your always good for a chuckles and a fight. :P Are you absolutely sure you want to tease a 6' 11.5" Texan that can bench 475 lbs.? ;)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-16-08, 08:06 PM	Texas is wonderful, as is every other state in the U.S.:)
JaiaDrottsingr 03-16-08, 08:21 PM	Ahem! 52. A tribal NPC class system. Commoners and Aristocrats seem out of place in a camp of gnolls.
Khaelieth 03-16-08, 08:42 PM	Ahem! 52. A tribal NPC class system. Commoners and Aristocrats seem out of place in a camp of gnolls. Commoners fit in. Not every single gnoll is a warrior.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-16-08, 11:10 PM	Commoners fit in. Not every single gnoll is a warrior. I know. I'm talking about an NPC class that actually deals with magic. I just don't think that every single magic user should be a player class.
MarkusTay63 03-17-08, 01:15 AM	Population of Houston > Pops. of Montana, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington combined.And the population of NY city is much higher then most third world countries... and a few 'first world' ones to boot. ;) The World Trade Center alone used to hold more folks then most cities. 52. A tribal NPC class system. Commoners and Aristocrats seem out of place in a camp of gnolls.Agreed. I tried to work one out myself - a generic 'catch-all' Shaman Class with 'trees' (like what they are doing in 4e) of Feat selections that would allow complete customization depend on the group, and the person involved. I was basing the entire thing on being able to re-create both the Druid and the Spirit Shaman (and maybe the DMG Witch) classes using a singel system. It would also take into account Spirit totems, Spirit Guides (Ancestral), and Animal Companions/Familiars, and it would use a new magic system based on Fetishes, Talismans, and Totems. I worked on it for one day, got a headache, and gave up. :( Not that I couldn't eventually pull it off - I just realized that I could get much the same effects just by using those two classes and design 'tribal specific' feats for each group. One day maybe I'll get back to it... it might be a better fit in 4e.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 08:54 AM	We aren't in the southwest... -Nah. Texas is the working definition of Continental U.S. Southwest. And the population of NY city is much higher then most third world countries... and a few 'first world' ones to boot. ;) The World Trade Center alone used to hold more folks then most cities. -Thank you. I was going to bring such facts up. When we start comparing 'sizes', well, we always win. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_populati on -Hell, the NYPD has 36,127 officers (hopefully including me sometime in the relative future), which is a veritable army. It's about 4x larger than the LAPD, the closest 'competitor' in the United States. ___ 53. More attention is given to regional and local currencies. The common 'gold coin' of Cormyr is worth more/less than the common 'gold coin' of Sembia, of Calimshan, and so on. 54. More attention is given to the aesthetic persuits of various races and cultures. Let's see examples of artwork, poetry, music, and so on. With the 'online Forgotten Realms wikipedia thingy', this is a great way to allow others to listen to, say, MIDIs, or MP3s of a Calimshite musical composition, or a Sembian song, or whatever.
Flicker 03-17-08, 09:45 AM	I could just say size isn't everything since we had the largest empire been the smallest originating country of Empirehood!! Oh and there's always history, since D&D and most of the RPG games are western medieval set, I believe cities didn't exist in the continental US at that time? "Tongue firmly in cheek" Flicker
SmartPaladin 03-17-08, 02:35 PM	Are you absolutely sure you want to tease a 6' 11.5" Texan that can bench 475 lbs.? ;) You want the truth? Yes, yes I'd still tease an 6'11.5" Texan. Just like I've teased former members of our armed forces. Why? cause for one, I'm crazy, and for another. I mean it in good humor. Seriously, I have family in Texas. Also, good number of my family is or was in our armed forces.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 05:15 PM	It would also take into account Spirit totems, Spirit Guides (Ancestral), and Animal Companions/Familiars, and it would use a new magic system based on Fetishes, Talismans, and Totems. -Have you checked out the new Totem Magic system, in Elves of Faerūn? Very impressive, that, in my opinion. -That brings up another good point... ___ 55. We have canon 'fluff' that Calashite magic functions in subtle, but different ways than 'Northern Barbarian' magic...Mechanically simulating these differences, whatever they are, in whatever cultures, would be cool.
sfdragon 03-20-08, 12:45 PM	I disagree with whomever said to get rid of myth drannnor
MarkusTay63 03-20-08, 01:44 PM	No, I happen to like Myth Drannor, even though I dislike Eladrin (Gold and Silver Elves). I also wouldn't want to see Evermeet just 'explode', but I would like it to become more 'mystical', as it should have been all along. Elves 'disappearing into the West' sounds cool, Elves sailing over to Evermeet just doesn't have the same ring to it. I have a REALLY strong suspician that something important is going to happen to Evermeet, and I'm hoping it gets shunted back into the Faerie (Feywild), with some sort of whirlpool or mist that the Elves sail into to 'go home'. And although Texas is cool, Hawaii was an Empire. It is the only state with its own Imperial Palace. :D -Nah. Texas is the working definition of Continental U.S. Southwest.I don't know... I always thought of Texas as... TEXAS. Or the 'Great Free State of Texas', as they like to put it. Did you know that they are the only state that can legally succeed from the union? They are more like a 'permanently allied' partner, because of the deal the country of Texas made. -Hell, the NYPD has 36,127 officers (hopefully including me sometime in the relative future), which is a veritable army. It's about 4x larger than the LAPD, the closest 'competitor' in the United States.We should invade somebody! Lets annex Rhode Island! :D -53. More attention is given to regional and local currencies. The common 'gold coin' of Cormyr is worth more/less than the common 'gold coin' of Sembia, of Calimshan, and so on. 54. More attention is given to the aesthetic persuits of various races and cultures. Let's see examples of artwork, poetry, music, and so on. With the 'online Forgotten Realms wikipedia thingy', this is a great way to allow others to listen to, say, MIDIs, or MP3s of a Calimshite musical composition, or a Sembian song, or whatever.Unfortunetly, that would have been something we would have seen in 1e & 2e. 3e ignored stuff like that, and in 4e, the goal is to SIMPLIFY everything - making coins from different Realms = different amounts would be a nightmare for most DMs, despite the fact that the realism would be cool. Much the same can be said for aesthetic pursuits - thats why we have a great resource like CK. ;) Thats the sort of thing you as a DM can add in if you want, but I think 'forcing it' on folks who don't want to be bothered is a bit much. BTW, did you know that you are required to use Shou currency in Shou Lung? Its a crime to try to pass off 'fake' (other countries) coinage within the Realms. You may exchange an amount of your money at the border for use within the country, and major cities probably have official banks where that can be done as well. Thats canon, not from my HB lore. Also, it is a crime to remove Shou currency from that country, and anyone leaving by an official route is asked to surrender any coins they may still have (at a VERY bad rate of exchange). -Have you checked out the new Totem Magic system, in Elves of Faerūn? Very impressive, that, in my opinion.I'll have to look at that - you have that stuff over at Alediran's site now, right? -55. We have canon 'fluff' that Calashite magic functions in subtle, but different ways than 'Northern Barbarian' magic...Mechanically simulating these differences, whatever they are, in whatever cultures, would be cool.There used to be a difference with Mulhorand/Untheric Magic as well, and I believe even the Shining South required the use of the Read Southern Magic spell at one point. The fact that they completely eliminated the differences between Faerūnian Magic and 'Southern Magic' in 3e means there isn't a snowball's chance in Hell they will be giving us differences again. Maybe something in the way of a unique 'Power Source' (God-King?), but definately not a seperate set of rules. Also, consider - they got rid of Mystra and her Weave for the few 'perceived' inconsistencies it caused in canon (like why does Torillian Magic work outside of Realmspace?). If they did a major 'wammy' like that, why would they start all of that up again with extra, un-needed rules? I'd like to see a different set of classes for certain areas, like we had in 2e, with Mulhorandi priests being able to wield both Arcane and Divine Magic. That would be the way to go in a 4e world - Region-specific classes, Feats, and even Power Sources. How cool would it be to have a Mulan Warlock accessing the Dead God Power Source? :D
Alediran 03-20-08, 01:50 PM	I'll have to look at that - you have that stuff over at Alediran's site now, right? Everything is there, and there are new things that were never published in the Elven Netbook Thread. BTW, when will you continue with the Kara-Tur moving? (I cleaned your index page as soon as I saw it)
MarkusTay63 03-20-08, 02:07 PM	Cleaned? :confused: Oh yeah... the site difference garbled some of the code... :rolleyes: I PROMISE I will be getting back to that - I'm CONSTANTLY compiling new bits for that project, and just as soon as I can clear a few things off of my plate (which I am working diligently at, for once), then I will be there. The Map is nearly complete for that project - Its just a nightmare to hand-draw the Yehimal Mountain range! Shou Lung itself is 95% done, and when I finish the Mountains, I will start on T'u Lung. That should be posted over at CK by the end of the month, and will hopefully coincide with the release of the next Compendium. Once that Map is up, I know it will generate interest for the region (which my Hordelands map did), and then we can start directing people over to The Realms Vault (http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com/boards/). ;) On Topic Consistency... thats all I ask. Do not fill a book with redundat PrCs just to get the page-count up. I would rather see far less of everything, with a lot more detail (and thought!) behind each entry. Also, keep the books flowing the same way - constantly changing the stat-boxes for things, and changing the balance of fluff and crunch in each book was VERY annoying. Form a plan, and stick with it! If I could sum up the 3e/4e design team in a single word, it would be 'indecisive'. Even if I HATE something, I'd rather see you guys continue to develop it, then just chuck it out or change it around in the next sourcebook. that makes it look like you guys (the designers) don't have a clue as to what you are doing, and thats not a way to build fan-loyalty.
Alediran 03-20-08, 02:45 PM	Cleaned? :confused: Oh yeah... the site difference garbled some of the code... :rolleyes: I PROMISE I will be getting back to that - I'm CONSTANTLY compiling new bits for that project, and just as soon as I can clear a few things off of my plate (which I am working diligently at, for once), then I will be there. The Map is nearly complete for that project - Its just a nightmare to hand-draw the Yehimal Mountain range! Shou Lung itself is 95% done, and when I finish the Mountains, I will start on T'u Lung. That should be posted over at CK by the end of the month, and will hopefully coincide with the release of the next Compendium. Once that Map is up, I know it will generate interest for the region (which my Hordelands map did), and then we can start directing people over to The Realms Vault (http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com/boards/). ;) That's what I'm hoping to do. I started a PbP game based in Myth Drannor 1375 DR, a good way of testing some of the crunch and fluff in the Elven Netbook. On Topic Consistency... thats all I ask. Do not fill a book with redundat PrCs just to get the page-count up. I would rather see far less of everything, with a lot more detail (and thought!) behind each entry. Also, keep the books flowing the same way - constantly changing the stat-boxes for things, and changing the balance of fluff and crunch in each book was VERY annoying. Form a plan, and stick with it! If I could sum up the 3e/4e design team in a single word, it would be 'indecisive'. Even if I HATE something, I'd rather see you guys continue to develop it, then just chuck it out or change it around in the next sourcebook. that makes it look like you guys (the designers) don't have a clue as to what you are doing, and thats not a way to build fan-loyalty. For me the team is an ADDHer without medication.
MarkusTay63 03-20-08, 02:56 PM	Im picturing the "Chicken without a head" metaphor, but it all boils down to the same thing - They need to all be on the SAME PAGE, and stick to whatever they are doing, even if it is dreadful! People don't like it? Fine, then FIX it... don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Too many areas that were considered only 'borderline intersting' were thrown out and replaced, when just with a little effort they could have been made so much better. If Ed and Schend (and others) could make a small tribe of barbarians intersting, why can't those guys do the same for an entire region? There seems to be a bit of a 'creativity vacuum' at the top, me thinks. DragonBorn and Tieflings are being added because they 'look cool', but really, beyond that, how much more interesting is their culture then the ones they are replacing? All they did was make something look different so it appeals to the kiddies - kudos to the art guys, but then what purpose do the writers serve? Whatever those 'things' are doing, the human cultures they supplanted could have done the same things. Pouring 'Hot Fudge' over cr@p doesn't make it icecream - it's still cr@p underneath.
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 01:21 AM	We should invade somebody! Lets annex Rhode Island! :D -Pesky Constitution of the Unted States, mandating that only Congress can technically declare war, and that States do not have the capacity to do this. -I'd totally support that notion, however. Annex Jersey, Connecticut, and Rhode Island. We'll get rid of Upstate, though. I hate Upstate NY. Unfortunetly, that would have been something we would have seen in 1e & 2e. 3e ignored stuff like that, and in 4e, the goal is to SIMPLIFY everything - making coins from different Realms = different amounts would be a nightmare for most DMs, despite the fact that the realism would be cool. Much the same can be said for aesthetic pursuits - thats why we have a great resource like CK. ;) -When phrased differently, it fits in with their design mantra. "Not having detaile and fleshed all of this out has made my campaign more difficult than it needed to be. Having WotC do this will make my campaign that much more simple." :) Thats the sort of thing you as a DM can add in if you want, but I think 'forcing it' on folks who don't want to be bothered is a bit much. -All that stuff is already canon, technically. And, the Golden Rule: A person doesn't have to use any rules they don't want to! I'll have to look at that - you have that stuff over at Alediran's site now, right? -Yes. That should be posted over at CK by the end of the month, and will hopefully coincide with the release of the next Compendium. -What F'ing Compendium!? I am STILL, out of the loop...Whatever...:mad:
MarkusTay63 03-21-08, 02:09 AM	That was a VERY hopeful post... I haven't heard anything from anyone about it since last we spoke. :(
baerdith 03-24-08, 10:28 PM	Stuff we fans would LIKE to see changed for 4E The FR Design Team. QFT:bow: 56: (I know this will never happen, but...) I want to see more Bards in 4e FR. The setting seems a natural for it, but the bard has always been the red-headed step child of ther Realms and D&D in general.
Dark Wizard 03-24-08, 11:07 PM	Though when FR has bards, it's some major 'bardery.'
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 11:34 PM	56: (I know this will never happen, but...) I want to see more Bards in 4e FR. The setting seems a natural for it, but the bard has always been the red-headed step child of ther Realms and D&D in general. -If I'm not mistaken, the Bard class is being taken out of the 4e Player's Handbook, as a class, for now. -Anyway, as for the Realms, the New Olamm Bardic College recently reopened, so...
MarkusTay63 03-25-08, 01:51 AM	Maybe we'll see the Bard in the FR Players Guide. It would be nice if the players guide was an actual useful sourcebook this time out, rather then an errata. Can you imagine sourcebooks without 'forced' PrCs and races we will never use? That would really be something.... Those 'Races of' books were positively abysmal. :(
Lord Karsus 03-25-08, 01:54 AM	Can you imagine sourcebooksa without 'forced' PrCs and races we will never use? That would really be something.... Those 'Races of' books were positively abysmal. :( -Who cares? Don't like 'em, don't use 'em. I, personally, liked the multitudes of PrC classes out there, as one never knows what kind of character they'll be playing in the future. As for all of those races, it is always nice to have something exotic laying around. So long as neither said PrCs or Races for forcibly injected into the Realms, and instead just kind of float around in "Core", I'm good.
MarkusTay63 03-25-08, 02:07 AM	But we already had half a dozen bird-races; did we really need Raptorans? Or Goliaths? The game already had 87 types of giant, and someone thought it needed another one? What the hell was wrong with using Firbolgs? Oh! Thats right! It was just filler-material! And don't even get me started on the Elans! You see they are exactly like huamns, EXCEPT they have psionics... Hmmmm... doesn't that just make them PSIONIC HUMANS?! :uh-huh: I swear, when reading through a lot of the 3e core books, I was like "Are they really THAT strapped for ideas, where they think something like a Xeph is good?" It's a Kender that looks like a bug! I mean, they were really grasping at straws with alot of that crap, and all of it was done before under different names. Even things like Shades were from earlier editions and other settings.... ZERO originality, thats what most of the 3e core stuff amounted to. Time and agian, I found myself going back to the 2e books for the 'good stuff'. :(
Lord Karsus 03-25-08, 02:10 AM	But we already had half a dozen bird-races; did we really need Raptorans? Or Goliaths? The game already had 87 types of giant, and someone thought it needed another one? What the hell was wrong with using Firbolgs? Oh! Thats right! It was just filler-material! And don't even get me started on the Elans! You see they are exactly like huamns, EXCEPT they have psionics... Hmmmm... doesn't that just make them PSIONIC HUMANS?! :uh-huh: I swear, when reading through a lot of the 3e core books, I was like "Are they really THAT strapped for ideas, where they think something like a Xeph is good?" Its a Kender that looks like a bug! I mean, they were really grasping at straws with alot of that crap, and all of it was done before under different names. Even things like Shades were from earlier editions and oher settings.... ZERO originality, thats what most of the 3e fluff amounted to. Time and agian, I found myself going back to the 2e books for the 'good stuff'. :( -If a person likes them, that's all that matters. You don't, and there's nothing wrong with that, fine. Don't use them, or don't buy Races of X, or whatever it is.
Dark Wizard 03-25-08, 02:34 AM	But we already had half a dozen bird-races; did we really need Raptorans? At the very least, I find the gradual system where they allowed a gradual build up to flight interesting. Or Goliaths? The game already had 87 types of giant, and someone thought it needed another one? What the hell was wrong with using Firbolgs? Oh! Thats right! It was just filler-material! But how many of those giants are playable with only ECL +1. The (Athasian) Half-Giant is the only other one that I know of. I like the Powerful Build (Medium size plus or large size minus) racial feature as well, not many races offer that (again Half-giant is about the only commonly available race). And don't even get me started on the Elans! You see they are exactly like huamns, EXCEPT they have psionics... Hmmmm... doesn't that just make them PSIONIC HUMANS?! :uh-huh: Ah, but they explain it you see. They were humans who had undergone a ritual that made them psionic, changed their type to aberrations, and gave them immortality while still looking human. That's three shades of creepy while still tapping into a decent amount of fantasy archetypes. I swear, when reading through a lot of the 3e core books, I was like "Are they really THAT strapped for ideas, where they think something like a Xeph is good?" Its a Kender that looks like a bug! I mean, they were really grasping at straws with alot of that crap, and all of it was done before under different names. Even things like Shades were from earlier editions and oher settings.... ZERO originality, thats what most of the 3e fluff amounted to. Time and agian, I found myself going back to the 2e books for the 'good stuff'. :( The small psionic bug people were Dromites. They have traction because D&D tends to associate some insectoids with psionics. Here you get to play into such an archetype, but without the Thri-Kreen weirdness. The Xeph are the soulknife-favoring, swift-footed Gith-looking race. If they made them more Gith related, they might have gotten more traction. However, the worst offender of the "Human+" races is Magic of Incarnum.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-26-08, 10:44 PM	And although Texas is cool, Hawaii was an Empire. It is the only state with its own Imperial Palace. :D I don't know... I always thought of Texas as... TEXAS. Or the 'Great Free State of Texas', as they like to put it. Did you know that they are the only state that can legally succeed from the union? They are more like a 'permanently allied' partner, because of the deal the country of Texas made. Not only that, but if Texas secedes, it takes with it such a great portion of the American midwest it's mildly laughable. Also, the Midwest has a hole in it, as of sometime last year. I thought it was funny. Map without Lakota Nation (more or less). (http://users.dma.ucla.edu/~estevancarlos/images/lakotanation.jpg) Article describing secession. (http://www.ziopedia.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=6807) On Topic: #. Less freaky elf crossbreeds. Really, half owlbear, half elf? Half treant, half elf? Seriously, those guys will ---- anything...
Lord Karsus 03-26-08, 11:52 PM	Also, the Midwest has a hole in it, as of sometime last year. I thought it was funny. Map without Lakota Nation (more or less). (http://users.dma.ucla.edu/~estevancarlos/images/lakotanation.jpg) Article describing secession. (http://www.ziopedia.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=6807) -I remember that...We were discussing it in the Rec-Room fairly recently. If I recall correctly, the man who claimed that the Lakota Nation had seceeded from the United States didn't actually have the capability of speaking for the Lakota Nation, making all of what he was saying major bloviating, and nothing else. -That said, if the Lakota, and other Indian nations did choose to do so, they technically could seceed. That said, of course, the U.S. Army could be deployed to "coerce" them to cease and desist. On Topic: #. Less freaky elf crossbreeds. Really, half owlbear, half elf? Half treant, half elf? Seriously, those guys will ---- anything...[/FONT][/CENTER] -Oh, it's never been THAT bad.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-27-08, 06:05 PM	-I remember that...We were discussing it in the Rec-Room fairly recently. If I recall correctly, the man who claimed that the Lakota Nation had seceeded from the United States didn't actually have the capability of speaking for the Lakota Nation, making all of what he was saying major bloviating, and nothing else. -That said, if the Lakota, and other Indian nations did choose to do so, they technically could seceed. That said, of course, the U.S. Army could be deployed to "coerce" them to cease and desist. Don't tell me... Dingo? He's not even American! -Oh, it's never been THAT bad. Those are official races in some compendium I found at a bookstore.
Khaelieth 03-27-08, 06:25 PM	But we already had half a dozen bird-races; did we really need Raptorans? Or Goliaths? The game already had 87 types of giant, and someone thought it needed another one? What the hell was wrong with using Firbolgs? Oh! Thats right! It was just filler-material! And don't even get me started on the Elans! You see they are exactly like huamns, EXCEPT they have psionics... Hmmmm... doesn't that just make them PSIONIC HUMANS?! :uh-huh: I swear, when reading through a lot of the 3e core books, I was like "Are they really THAT strapped for ideas, where they think something like a Xeph is good?" Its a Kender that looks like a bug! I mean, they were really grasping at straws with alot of that crap, and all of it was done before under different names. Even things like Shades were from earlier editions and oher settings.... ZERO originality, thats what most of the 3e fluff amounted to. Time and agian, I found myself going back to the 2e books for the 'good stuff'. :( *High fives and agrees whole heartedly*
Lord Karsus 03-27-08, 08:03 PM	Don't tell me... Dingo? He's not even American! -I don't know. Sounds like something Dingo would post, but I don't think it was him. Those are official races in some compendium I found at a bookstore -Well, they don't exist in the Forgotten Realms, so...
JaiaDrottsingr 03-27-08, 09:28 PM	-Well, they don't exist in the Forgotten Realms, so... It was a FR racial compendium of half breeds and racial templates.
Lord Karsus 03-27-08, 11:10 PM	It was a FR racial compendium of half breeds and racial templates. -Trust me. Half-Owlbears, Half-Elves do not exist on Faerūn.
MarkusTay63 03-28-08, 02:26 AM	You do know that a part of the Florida Keys seceeded from the US just a few years ago, right? You can read about it HERE: The Conch Republic (http://www.conchrepublic.com/republic_position.htm) I think the US Gov't just ignored them. :P And as far as stuff I want to see in 4e... I don't want them to change a thing. Thats right... you heard me... I want them to continue down this path in a very straight and narrow fashion, with no sidestepping. I want everything they told us to appear in the FRCG, EXACTLY as they have told us, with NO changes. In fact, I think they need to replace even more of Toril with Abeir, and kill the rest of the gods. I mean, why not? What the hell, right? The last thing in the world I would want them to do at this point is to start back-peddling and rescinding all the 'wonderful' changes they have promised us. :devil:
Lord Karsus 03-28-08, 10:43 AM	You do know that a part of the Florida Keys seceeded from the US just a few years ago, right? You can read about it HERE: The Conch Republic (http://www.conchrepublic.com/republic_position.htm) I think the US Gov't just ignored them. :P -Yes. Three reasons: A) It was tongue-in-cheek B) A city does not have the capability to seceed from this union. Only a State does. C) According to the Consitution of the United States, this is illegal: Article IV, Section III: "...but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress. The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States". -This is why the United States, in the Pledge of Allegiance, is "...One Nation, under G-d, indivisible...".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-28-08, 01:00 PM	Sounds to me like what's called a "micronation". They generally exist only people's minds.:)
MarkusTay63 03-28-08, 02:48 PM	The should ally with 'Petoria'. :P has anyone seen the new Realmslore article - The Zhent Headless Horsemen (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080326)? VERY cliché, IMHO, and the name.... YUCK. It certainly doesn't 'roll off the tongue'. It's too bad, because I normally enjoy Bruce Cordell's contributions. :( And Dalesmen hiring Zhents to take care of some Gnolls for them? :confused: WTF? Is that the future of the Moonsea North? :blink:
Alediran 03-28-08, 03:01 PM	Blech, that is not the Forgotten Realms, that is Core Generic stuff!!!!
MarkusTay63 03-28-08, 03:30 PM	From 10-29-07 --- All core D&D races will be represented in FR. Realms includes everything in core D&D. It is Core, they're just using different terminology now, calling it instead "The Flagship Setting". Its all word-play, to hide what has really happened. We are going the way of Greyhawk... and the Dodo bird. :(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-28-08, 04:12 PM	has anyone seen the new Realmslore article - The Zhent Headless Horsemen (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080326)? Yup, and I left comments on CK (I agree with you about the name).
Lord Karsus 03-29-08, 12:43 AM	has anyone seen the new Realmslore article - The Zhent Headless Horsemen (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080326)? :nonono: -I like how Elminster was alluded to as "...the storied defender of Shadowdale..." -Just...This is pure and utter :yuck:...
MarkusTay63 03-29-08, 02:57 AM	You know, it's funny... I steal ideas from books and movies all the time... But I don't try to sell them. ;) I still think the Wailing Dwarf article was worse - the 'non' adventure location. Go there and be bored stiff. Wailing Dwarves and wailing years... sure seems like there's a lot of crying go on over at WotC... :rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-29-08, 05:03 PM	-I like how Elminster was alluded to as "...the storied defender of Shadowdale..." I didn't realize Shadowdale had only one defender.;) :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 03-30-08, 01:42 AM	I didn't realize Shadowdale had only one defender.;) :rolleyes: -Of course. No one else of any worth lives in Shadowdale, don't you know?
JaiaDrottsingr 03-30-08, 03:12 PM	#+1. Establish Albier satisfactorily. I want to see it more fleshed out than Maztica was. Could use it in my next campaign (using 3.5e rules and Lore, though).
MarkusTay63 03-30-08, 03:45 PM	Just a thought on what Ja-unpronouncablename said - I have always felt that it was Bruce Cordell who was bringing Aberrations more to the forefront of FR (something that has never had very much existing lore in FR before 4e). Since Bruce is a Cthulhu enthusiast (don't know if he's actually a 'Lovecraft fan'), and he is in charge of developing the setting in FR, we have unfortunely placed all of the blame for that bit of weirdness squarely on his shoulders. Not that Mr. Cordell isn't an excellent writer and designer; until the recent 'Headless' article, he has never disappointed before. Thats why I had high hopes that all the Far Realms crap being forced into FR would at least be of decent quality. Now, looking through some of my less-used books this morning (organizing my bookshelf), I noted that Lords of Madness has Rich Baker's monicker on it, not Bruce Cordell's. So to be perfectly fair about this, we can't place ALL of the blame on Mr. Cordell - it appears several people amongst the 4e team are fans of the 'psuedo-natural'. Not that I mind any of that....... in a Cthulhu game! I really have to say, the Abolethic Sovereignty is probably turning me off to 4e FR more then any other one particular thing. From the moment I first laid eyes on those stupid things way back in 1e's MM2, I thought "those will NEVER see the light of day in one of my games". Giant Catfish with extra eyes and psionic powers? With all due respect to the late, great E. G. Gygax, definately not one of his better ideas. Since he also gave us Beholders, all is forgiven. Still no excuse to put them en masse in FR - if they wanted Aberrations, why not use the Beholders, which Ed had firmly entrenched into FR's lore? Or even the Illithids, who have been slowly building up to the level of the Beholders since 1e. I just didn't see why they needed to go and find so many things that were NOT from FR to build 4e FR. We already had Genasi, Tieflings, and Dragonborn... what was the need to change the lore just to make them more prominent? What I would like to see in 4e FR is less wrapping the setting around new rules, and more loyalty to the brand. A setting should be independent of the rules, and the 4e team don't seem to realize this. FR has become a cosmic dumping ground for every bad idea anyone who has ever worked for TSR/WotC has ever had, and that was my one and only complaint about 2e (toward the end) - the quality began to slip because everyone and his brother were trying to shoe-horn in their own 'cool idea'. One of the good things I can say about 3e was that they shied away from a good deal of the 'sillier stuff', and the setting became more mature' because of it. Now they seem to be going backwards, and any old 'weirdness' is exceptable once again. Aberrations play a major part of the Eberron setting, and deny it as much as they want to, the 'walls' between the settings are full of holes, and contamination is leaking in. :(
JaiaDrottsingr 03-30-08, 05:03 PM	Just a thought on what Ja-unpronouncablename said Jī-ah Droot-sēn-gęr. Because the o has an umlaut. Jaia Dröttsingr. His last name means absolutely nothing. The character chose it cause he thought it sounded tight.
MarkusTay63 03-30-08, 05:13 PM	I'll just call you 'Jai', hows that? :D I didn't mean any offense, BTW, I just hate typing names that I can't remember how to spell. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-30-08, 08:01 PM	I have always felt that it was Bruce Cordell who was bringing Aberrations more to the forefront of FR (something that has never had very much existing lore in FR before 4e). Since Bruce is a Cthulhu enthusiast (don't know if he's actually a 'Lovecraft fan'), and he is in charge of developing the setting in FR, we have unfortunely placed all of the blame for that bit of weirdness squarely on his shoulders. Not that Mr. Cordell isn't an excellent writer and designer; until the recent 'Headless' article, he has never disappointed before. Thats why I had high hopes that all the Far Realms crap being forced into FR would at least be of decent quality. I really have to say, the Abolethic Sovereignty is probably turning me off to 4e FR more then any other one particular thing. From the moment I first laid eyes on those stupid things way back in 1e's MM2, I thought "those will NEVER see the light of day in one of my games". Stilll no excuse to put them en masse in FR... -This is why I am a big fan of Eytan Berstein, who I am sure you are familiar with. For those of you who don't know him, he was a designer for Dragons of Faerūn, and the author of the excellent Class Chronicle articles on the WotC website. -He has specifically stated that he injected some of his own likes/dislikes into the Realms, but did it in such a way that people who wanted to ignore them could easily do so, since these were HIS likes/dislikes, and not EVERYONE'S likes/dislikes.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-30-08, 08:33 PM	-Of course. No one else of any worth lives in Shadowdale, don't you know? Yeah, I'm so glad WotC is working extra hard to show us that the setting isn't just about Elminster and other high level NPCs.:rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-30-08, 08:39 PM	Giant Catfish with extra eyes and psionic powers? With all due respect to the late, great E. G. Gygax, definately not one of his better ideas. Since he also gave us Beholders, all is forgiven. I've always liked Aboleths. However, I don't like this Abolethic Sovereignty ("Abolethic" is awkward), because I don't like aboleths being pushed to the forefront like what seems to be happening for 4E. And no, I'm not a fan of ultra-weird, Lovecraftian stuff in the Realms. And yes, because Cordell's work contains a lot of ultra-weird, sci/fi-ish stuff in it (stuff that is IMO not the best fit for the Realms), he is generally going to get the blame for the Far Realms "creep" from people who dislike it.
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 12:18 AM	Yeah, I'm so glad WotC is working extra hard to show us that the setting isn't just about Elminster and other high level NPCs.:rolleyes: -Wait, what? It isn't? Waitaminute? What setting have I been following, then? I've always liked Aboleths. However, I don't like this Abolethic Sovereignty ("Abolethic" is awkward), because I don't like aboleths being pushed to the forefront like what seems to be happening for 4E. -On it's own, the idea of Aboleth savants ruling a "city-state" of drones, or what not, is interesting. That said, I think I do recall that Aboleths are, according to the Monster Manual, mostly loners, who sometimes assemble into small groups (1d3)
MarkusTay63 03-31-08, 12:26 AM	I think nearly all the aberrations are loners, with the notable exception of the Illithids. I mean, c'mon, when you are bread from pure chaos, how much can you possibly like your own kind? That being said, in the Spelljammer setting they gave the Beholders HIVE SHIPS! :eek: Can you imagine? One beholder is like "damn, I hope we make it through this", but a whole shipload of them? hundreds? What the HELL were they thinking? I like the one that was a bartender though... he would have fit right in in the Realms. :D I wonder whats going to happen to the World Serpent Inn in 4e? Maybe thats one to ask Rich... last I read, it made it into core. :( Oh wait! That shouldn't be a problem now. :smirk:
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 12:32 AM	I mean, c'mon, when you are bread from pure chaos, how much can you possibly like your own kind? -I agree. That being said, in the Spelljammer setting they gave the Beholders HIVE SHIPS! :eek: Can you imagine? One beholder is like "damn, I hope we make it through this", but a whole shipload of them? hundreds? -Eh, that doesn't phase me. Beholders live in hives, to begin with. And, Beholders in the same hive dislike other Beholders, viewing them as lesser creatures, who sully the name 'Beholder'. That said, what's the problem? They are just mobile (Spelljammers) now. If anything, that fits even more with Beholders. Now, they can not only cleanse their own planets from lesser creatures, but they can also cleanse other planets from these lesser creatures! Genius! I wonder whats going to happen to the World Serpent Inn in 4e? Maybe thats one to ask Rich... last I read, it made it into core. :( -There was an article in DRAGON magazine, in the 'latter days', that I believe written by Shemmy, concerning it. That said, I don't know if it was "morphed" into 'Core' or not.
MarkusTay63 03-31-08, 01:08 AM	Hmmm... I thought that article was core - I'll have to go back and check now. As for the Beholders; Yeah, I know it makes sense - in fact, they make even more sense in space because the alrerady look all weird and 'alienish'. however, the point I was trying to make is that a HUNDRED BEHOLDERS is a bit of a party-killer, wouldn't you say? I like that they are there, but I find it nearly impossible to come up with a non-fatal way of using them.
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 01:23 AM	Hmmm... I thought that article was core - I'll have to go back and check now. -Like I said, I don't know. however, the point I was trying to make is that a HUNDRED BEHOLDERS is a bit of an party-killer, wouldn't you say? -No, I don't think so. I mean, like I said, Beholders already live in large hives. The city of Zokir has 2,400 Beholders, with about 240 Beholder Mages, and 240 Hive Mothers. I like that they are there, but I find it nearly impossible to come up with a non-fatal way of using them. -Well, it's a Beholder Hive. Would you live if you ran into a Beholder Hive, with the numbers given above? What makes a Hive Ship any different? That said, there are always ways to do things. Perhaps the Hive Ship in question that you might use is abandoned, with say, pirates living in it, or something. Or, a Beholder Lich killed everyone else on board, leaving you with a lot of zombies. There is always a possibility, with enough creativity.
MarkusTay63 03-31-08, 02:30 AM	In 1e, Beholders were ALWAYS solo monsters. I'm pretty sure they are going to 'do in' that Hive city come 4e - Beholders are being 'beefed up' to take on strong parties single-handedly. 2400 Beholders would overun Faerūn! That city makes absolutely no sense as-is. Waterdeep couldn't even last against that. :rolleyes: That would be like trying to fend off 2400 Dragons!
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 02:37 AM	In 1e, Beholders were ALWAYS solo monsters. -Well, 2e changed that. In the 3e Monster Manual, it says they are encountered in "Solitary, Pair, or Clusters (3-6)". 2400 Beholders would overun Faerūn! That city makes absolutely no sense as-is. -Not really. Remember, Beholders aren't interested in world domination. Leave 'em alone, and they won't bother you. -The city also had something like 40,000+ slaves. My book is upstairs in my room, and I don't feel like running up and down two flights of steps, with my bum knee, at this point. That would be like trying to fend off 2400 Dragons! -Ah, Waterdeep has that Dragon Ward thing, so they don't have to worry about Dragons. That aside, who won when Elminster woke from his stasis, and the Beholder, the Mindflayer, and the Dragon began fighting? Was it the Mindflayer? I seem to remember the Dragon biting the Beholder, pretty much eating it.
fetfreak 03-31-08, 06:44 AM	- drow & thieflings uber evil, not comercial, keep to them self and low in numbers. anyone?
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 06:56 AM	-If I had the faintest clue what you were talking about, I might agree.
fetfreak 03-31-08, 09:40 AM	stuff I would like to see changed for 4ed? :)
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 10:03 AM	-I got that part.
fetfreak 03-31-08, 11:36 AM	and what don't you get?
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 11:42 AM	-This part: - drow & thieflings uber evil, not comercial, keep to them self and low in numbers.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-31-08, 01:33 PM	-Wait, what? It isn't? Waitaminute? What setting have I been following, then? My point exactly.:P -On it's own, the idea of Aboleth savants ruling a "city-state" of drones, or what not, is interesting. That said, I think I do recall that Aboleths are, according to the Monster Manual, mostly loners, who sometimes assemble into small groups (1d3) I'm not against that either, really, though I don't care for the Abolethic Sovereignty as presented in the novel Stardeep (ie. Aboleths, or creatures similar to them, were present on Toril and ruling it long before ANYTHING ELSE was!).
Rauric 03-31-08, 05:07 PM	I always figured aboleths and krakens ruled Toril when it was just an ocean. Even if there was no "lore" on it I figured it happened anyway.
MarkusTay63 03-31-08, 05:17 PM	-Ah, Waterdeep has that Dragon Ward thing, so they don't have to worry about Dragons. That aside, who won when Elminster woke from his stasis, and the Beholder, the Mindflayer, and the Dragon began fighting? Was it the Mindflayer? I seem to remember the Dragon biting the Beholder, pretty much eating it.If I recall, the Beholder made short work of the Dragon with it's disintegration beam. We seem to be reading different books again. ;) Then the Mindflayer made the Beholder beat it's head against the wall until it died, and El took care of the Mindflayer. Or was it the El that made it beat it's head against the wall... I think that was it - the Dragon bit the mindlflayer in half! (then the Beholder killed it, and El took care of the Beholder with some sort of spell that made it continuously repeat its last action). So in that encounter, the only thing more dangerous then the Beholder was Elminster. I wonder if he is going to be in the 4e MM? ;) -This part:I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. He does not wish to see a proliferance of said beasties in 4e - they should be rarely encountered walking around the surface of Toril. Tieflings should NOT have their own kingdom, and there shouldn't be 67,000 Drizzt clones walking around under the sun. The commercial reference was to WotC pushing these races to the forefront because 'they sell'. Simple enough? Not everyone needs a page and half to get their point across... like us. :P
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 08:43 PM	I'm not against that either, really, though I don't care for the Abolethic Sovereignty as presented in the novel Stardeep (ie. Aboleths, or creatures similar to them, were present on Toril and ruling it long before ANYTHING ELSE was!). -You've read my rebuttal to all of that, haven't you? We seem to be reading different books again. ;) -I specifically said I didn't remember. That said, as long as the Illithid "won"... I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. -You speak good fetfreakish, then.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-01-08, 12:46 PM	-You've read my rebuttal to all of that, haven't you? I think I have. However, if you could repost it to refresh my memory, I'd appreciate it.:)
Lord Karsus 04-01-08, 03:50 PM	I think I have. However, if you could repost it to refresh my memory, I'd appreciate it.:) -I can't find it in my thread history. Either I accidentally deleted it, or WotC disappeared it. Oh well. Well, basically, yes, there is no evidence whatsoever that any of that could have existed, as per all of the canon we had before Stardeep was published, and that it causes plenty of continuity problems.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 04-01-08, 04:27 PM	You know I REALLY liked that book until I read that part :nonono:
Lord Karsus 04-01-08, 04:51 PM	You know I REALLY liked that book until I read that part :nonono: -Personally, I thought the entire book sucked. I didn't like the history that the book offered insight into, nor did I like the actual story itself. If I find it hard to care for the protagonists, or the main conflict, I feel that a book has failed.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 04-01-08, 04:58 PM	I liked the main characters (Half-Star elf Monk with a katana head on against a troll! ) C'mon now :P
SmartPaladin 04-01-08, 06:37 PM	I liked the main characters (Half-Star elf Monk with a katana head on against a troll! ) C'mon now :P Well... That sounds like Win to me.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-01-08, 07:34 PM	-I can't find it in my thread history. Either I accidentally deleted it, or WotC disappeared it. Oh well. Well, basically, yes, there is no evidence whatsoever that any of that could have existed, as per all of the canon we had before Stardeep was published, and that it causes plenty of continuity problems. It's annoying. And Stardeep was my least favorite of the Dungeon novels.
MarkusTay63 04-01-08, 11:05 PM	Personally, I think the novel was self-serving. Now when we get hit with all the psuedo-natural aberration cr@p in 4e, they can say "but look! It's right there in canon!" "You know... the canon I just created three days ago...." :rolleyes: They are changing FR's history to suit their needs, and once again we have an instance where fluff is being wrapped around mechanics, instead of the other way around. Everything in FR is being 'adjusted' to fit the Core Rules, because like it or not, we are the Core... I mean "flagship" setting. :bored:
Lord Karsus 04-02-08, 12:04 AM	It's annoying. -That it is. Let's not even start on the possible continuity errors it causes. And Stardeep was my least favorite of the Dungeon novels. -Eh, if you ask me Crypt of the Diamond, or whatever it was, is worse. I couldn't even start it. Every time I start to (I'm up to page 13 or so), I just start reading another book. The Howling Delve was pretty crappy as well. The one with Fox-at-Twilight was decent. Stardeep, in the least, at least provided a little light into what the Sildeyuir and Star Elves are like. Personally, I think the novel was self-serving. Now when we get hit with all the psudo-natural aberration cr@p in 4e, they can say "but look! It's right there in canon!" -Of course, of course. Ironic that Bruce Cordell wrote it? Exactly...
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 04-02-08, 07:18 AM	-That it is. Let's not even start on the possible continuity errors it causes. -Eh, if you ask me Crypt of the Diamond, or whatever it was, is worse. I couldn't even start it. Every time I start to (I'm up to page 13 or so), I just start reading another book. The Howling Delve was pretty crappy as well. The one with Fox-at-Twilight was decent. Stardeep, in the least, at least provided a little light into what the Sildeyuir and Star Elves are like. -Of course, of course. Ironic that Bruce Cordell wrote it? Exactly... I have to agree with LK that other one was worst IMO (no one even died :nonono:) I did like the Half orc though :cool:
Lord Karsus 04-02-08, 11:07 AM	I have to agree with LK that other one was worst IMO (no one even died :nonono:) I did like the Half orc though :cool: -Well, no one has to die for a novel to be good...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-02-08, 02:06 PM	-Eh, if you ask me Crypt of the Diamond, or whatever it was, is worse. I couldn't even start it. Every time I start to (I'm up to page 13 or so), I just start reading another book. The Howling Delve was pretty crappy as well. The one with Fox-at-Twilight was decent. Stardeep, in the least, at least provided a little light into what the Sildeyuir and Star Elves are like. Heh, I actually loved Crypt of the Moaning Diamond.:) Loved the characters and the light-hearted tone of the whole thing. Since I loved the characters, I was happy that none of them died. I understand the place of tragedy in fantasy, but I don't need it all the time. -Of course, of course. Ironic that Bruce Cordell wrote it? Exactly... I may come off as overly negative and a "hater", but I have to agree with you and Markus...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-02-08, 02:09 PM	-Well, no one has to die for a novel to be good... Also, sometimes a character will die and it won't affect me at all, usually because it means I was never moved to care about the character in the first place.
Lord Karsus 04-02-08, 02:34 PM	I may come off as overly negative and a "hater", but I have to agree with you and Markus... -Don't be a playa' hayta'. -Right. Anyway, asidies for that nugget of wisdom provided by my sister, I agree, it is hard to not come off as if you specfically don't like a person, especially when it's the same one or two people who are constantly doing things you don't like.
MarkusTay63 04-02-08, 03:04 PM	Which is an indication that perhaps they aren't very good at the career path they have chosen. :smirk: Also, sometimes a character will die and it won't affect me at all, usually because it means I was never moved to care about the character in the first place.If I cry (yes... I do cry.. its not a sign of weakness), then the author has done his/her job. I got 'misty' and the end of Blackstaff, and I balled like a baby at the end of Death of the Dragon. Azoun, was for me, THE Forgotten Realms character - he embodied all of those things that make a great hero, and did it all without a bunch of 'Mary Sue' powers. I'm getting 'Misty' again..... :(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-02-08, 03:15 PM	-Don't be a playa' hayta'. -Right. Anyway, asidies for that nugget of wisdom provided by my sister, I agree, it is hard to not come off as if you specfically don't like a person, especially when it's the same one or two people who are constantly doing things you don't like. Indeed--I've read that Bruce Cordell works with homeless animals (like cats and dogs) and as an animal lover I respect him for that. So, I don't want to come off as if I hate him personally--I don't, I just am not enthused by much of his Realms work.
MarkusTay63 04-02-08, 03:22 PM	I haven't read Stardeep, but I really liked Darkvision. I'm also a fan of quite a bit of the design work Bruce has done in the past. I think the man is a very good writer and an excellent designer. That being said, I don't have to agree with his 'tastes', and don't really care for certain things becoming more prominent in FR just because he personally likes them. And as for his recent 'Realmslore' article - I think the man is suffering from some severe creative burnout. :(
Lord Karsus 04-02-08, 03:33 PM	So, I don't want to come off as if I hate him personally--I don't, I just am not enthused by much of his Realms work. -I know, and like I said, it's hard when seemingly everything he does is bad. This is how I got pegged a '4e hater-grognard-doofus-whatever'. It's not that I don't like 4e because I don't like change, or whatever. I just truly don't like very much of what is being changed.
MarkusTay63 04-02-08, 04:08 PM	Underwear.
Khaelieth 04-02-08, 08:44 PM	Underwear. MT, only weaklings and Muslims change underwear! Stay true!
MarkusTay63 04-02-08, 08:49 PM	Okay, but only for one more edition. These 1st edition ones are starting to 'crust up' on me. ;)
Daenaan 04-02-08, 08:59 PM	Okay, but only for one more edition. These 1st edition ones are starting to 'crust up' on me. ;) Fortunately, in 4E, gnomes return to monster status. And word on the street is that they steal underpants. Going 4E means going "commando".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-02-08, 09:13 PM	I haven't read Stardeep, but I really liked Darkvision. I'm also a fan of quite a bit of the design work Bruce has done in the past. I think the man is a very good writer and an excellent designer. That being said, I don't have to agree with his 'tastes', and don't really care for certain things becoming more prominent in FR just because he personally likes them. Indeed, that's what it seems like to me, unfortunately. I did actually think Darkvision was a pretty good story, although not that great as a REALMS novel. Too sci/fi-ish. I was also disappointed because the novel seemed set up to be about Ususi, but it really wasn't (I didn't learn much about her as a person).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-02-08, 09:14 PM	-I know, and like I said, it's hard when seemingly everything he does is bad. This is how I got pegged a '4e hater-grognard-doofus-whatever'. It's not that I don't like 4e because I don't like change, or whatever. I just truly don't like very much of what is being changed. Yeah, same here. I guess it's just easier to say "people hate change!":rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 04-02-08, 11:50 PM	I was also disappointed because the novel seemed set up to be about Ususi, but it really wasn't (I didn't learn much about her as a person). -I think Darkvision left us with more questions. I mean, I'm still trying to figure out that whole time paradox bit. I guess it's just easier to say "people hate change!":rolleyes: -It's easier to simply nod your head and say whatever than to discuss and explain why this isn't so, to most these people, anyway.
Angua 04-03-08, 04:13 AM	-Ah, Waterdeep has that Dragon Ward thing, so they don't have to worry about Dragons. That aside, who won when Elminster woke from his stasis, and the Beholder, the Mindflayer, and the Dragon began fighting? Was it the Mindflayer? I seem to remember the Dragon biting the Beholder, pretty much eating it. That was way before Elminster was put into stasis in The Temptation of Elmister, but back when he was still Elmara, before he even became a wizard, but was a cleric of Mystra. The dragon bit the mindflayer in half, the beholder killed the dragon, and Elmister caused the beholder to replay its collision with the wall over, and over, and over. edit: Speaking of novels from "The dungeons" series, the only one I didn't really like was Depths of Madness, though that was mostly because I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on while I was reading it. :embarrass
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 04-03-08, 09:58 AM	-Well, no one has to die for a novel to be good... :embarrass I didn't explain myself right:) . What I mean is that I didn't 'felt' any sense of perril it never crossed my mid ':eek: Holy **** they won't make it:eek: ' or anything like that. I LOVED the 'heroes' but the story was :bored:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-03-08, 10:19 AM	-I think Darkvision left us with more questions. I mean, I'm still trying to figure out that whole time paradox bit. I didn't like that whole "alternate timeline twin" thing. Too weird, and IMO not very FR-ish. And like you, I didn't understand it! -It's easier to simply nod your head and say whatever than to discuss and explain why this isn't so, to most these people, anyway. Yup--I find it best to pick one's battles.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-03-08, 10:20 AM	That was way before Elminster was put into stasis in The Temptation of Elmister, but back when he was still Elmara, before he even became a wizard, but was a cleric of Mystra. Hmm, are you sure? I could be wrong, but I recall that El was only "Elmara" in the first book, Elminster: The Making of a Mage.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-03-08, 10:21 AM	:embarrass I didn't explain myself right:) . What I mean is that I didn't 'felt' any sense of perril it never crossed my mid ':eek: Holy **** they won't make it:eek: ' or anything like that. I thought there was a sense of peril in the book. But that doesn't mean you were wrong--you just took in the story differently.:)
MarkusTay63 04-03-08, 10:26 AM	Didn't you figure it out yet? Her 'sister' was from Abeir! :eek: Everyone's got a 'twin' in Abeir... its the all-purpose deus ex machina for fixing anything they screw up. The alternate timeline' that split off when the Elves did their crazy-a__ Elven magic thing and split the world asunder. Its the world 'that would have been'. Damn Elves... when are they gonna learn the only thing their magic is really good for is baking cookies? :P
Lord Karsus 04-03-08, 12:07 PM	The alternate timeline' that split off when the Elves did their crazy-a__ Elven magic thing and split the world asunder. Its the world 'that would have been'. -Are you still beating that dead horse? Stardeep makes clear that 'Abeir' was split from 'Toril' long before the Elves arrived in the Crystal Sphere.
Angua 04-04-08, 02:34 AM	Hmm, are you sure? I could be wrong, but I recall that El was only "Elmara" in the first book, Elminster: The Making of a Mage. My statement was a bit unclear, but yes, the dragon, beholder, and mindflayer incident occured in Elminster, The Making of a Mage, and Elminster came out of stasis in the prologue of The Temptation of Elminster
MarkusTay63 04-04-08, 03:00 AM	-Are you still beating that dead horse? Stardeep makes clear that 'Abeir' was split from 'Toril' long before the Elves arrived in the Crystal Sphere.And it quite clearly states in the GHotR that the Elves ritual reached backwards and forwards in time. :D When the Elves cast the ritual, Evermeet didn't just appear out of thin air. The ritual reached back through time and caused a slow continental drift to occur, so that by the time they cast the spell, Evermeet would already exist fully formed. Had that spell been instant, the Elves and every other living thing would have been wiped out by the catastrophic realignment of the weather patterns, not to mention all the Tsunamis, eathquakes, volcanos, etc that would have sprung up from all that Tectionic friction. Did you see the Day After Tomorrow? Think worse... MUCH worse. I've been toying with the theory again, and fine-tuning it with some of the latest info. There actually would have to have been TWO groups of Elves casting the spell (although some of the Elves could have been the same in both groups), since the original group would have had no reason to cast the spell if Evermeet already existed. Time Paradoxes are a nigtmare. So, the spell would not only have to alter things, but also have to cause something else that would make them still cast the ritual anyway, otherwise you'd end up in an endless loop. The up side? You get your original date back for the Sundering! :dancin: There were two! One for EACH timeline. Oh... and the other High-Magic Ritual?... that was the Dracolaser thing. :cool: You can make all the dates work out when you account for the two time lines, and all the other wacky innacuracies that creep in (like that that Elven archer-god existed too soon in that short story, or the highly evolved humans in the same story). In the oringinal timeline, Shevarash existed and ascended sooner, and humans had achieved civilization earlier. It also explains why their was a period of Dragon and Giant domination of the world, and the Creator Races. The Dragon and Giant Kingdoms would not have risen to the same level of power in the altered timeline. And thanks to magic, some things would have still existed from the alternate reality even after time was change (like the Citadel of Ravens, or Chasolné). Also there have been at least three different instances of Tears of Selūne falling from the sky. The same event, from the original unified timeline, repeating later in 'split time'? I don't like the Spellplague way of changing things, but I do like the Unsundering. :P
Lord Karsus 04-04-08, 04:17 AM	And it quite clearly states in the GHotR that the Elves ritual reached backwards and forwards in time. :D When the Elves cast the ritual, Evermeet didn't just appear out of thin air. The ritual reached back through time and caused a slow continental drift to occur, so that by the time they cast the spell, Evermeet would already exist fully formed. Had that spell been instant, the Elves and every other living thing would have been wiped out by the catastrophic realignment of the weather patterns, not to mention all the Tsunamis, eathquakes, volcanos, etc that would have sprung up from all that Tectionic friction. Did you see the Day After Tomorrow? Think worse... MUCH worse. I've been toying with the theory again, and fine-tuning it with some of the latest info. There actually would have to have been TWO groups of Elves casting the spell (although some of the Elves could have been the same in both groups), since the original group would have had no reason to cast the spell if Evermeet already existed. Time Paradoxes are a nigtmare. So, the spell would not only have to alter things, but also have to cause something else that would make them still cast the ritual anyway, otherwise you'd end up in an endless loop. The up side? You get your original date back for the Sundering! :dancin: There were two! One for EACH timeline. Oh... and the other High-Magic Ritual?... that was the Dracolaser thing. :cool: You can make all the dates work out when you account for the two time lines, and all the other wacky innacuracies that creep in (like that that Elven archer-god existed too soon in that short story, or the highly evolved humans in the same story). In the oringinal timeline, Shevarash existed and ascended sooner, and humans had achieved civilization earlier. It also explains why their was a period of Dragon and Giant domination of the world, and the Creator Races. The Dragon and Giant Kingdoms would not have risen to the same level of power in the altered timeline. And thanks to magic, some things would have still existed from the alternate reality even after time was change (like the Citadel of Ravens, or Chasolné). Also there have been at least three different instances of Tears of Selūne falling from the sky. The same event, from the original unified timeline, repeating later in 'split time'? I don't like the Spellplague way of changing things, but I do like the Unsundering. :P -Do you realize how silly you sound? -That said, again, Stardeep unravels your theory, concerning 'Abeir'. Read it. I implore you. Asides for a whole slew of flaws and fallacies in your theory, Stardeep explains why 'Abeir' was "flung away".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-04-08, 12:52 PM	Hmm, why don't we all just agree that the "alternate timeline twin" thing was dumb and made no sense?;)
Lord Karsus 04-06-08, 12:33 AM	Hmm, why don't we all just agree that the "alternate timeline twin" thing was dumb and made no sense?;) -In all cases.
MarkusTay63 04-06-08, 12:43 AM	No, the Aboleths NEVER happened! :P And there ARE two seperate timelines, THAT is canon. Up until the Elves cast their spell, the world looked like the pic in the beginning of the GHotR - one proto-continent. Then, when the Elves cast it, The Proto-continent ceased to exist well over ten thousand years in the past of that moment. In fact, the Elves that finished casting that ritual might not have even been the ones that started it. I sound silly?! :uh-huh: Saying that the continent broke apart and all that happened in the course of a few minutes, and no one was harmed and the planet's ecosphere wasn't damaged is just plain ludicrous. What part of that don't you understand? Its canon... :teach: Stardeep explains Abeir? :confused: I was going to read it, but hearing how Sci-Fi it was is keeping me clear of it... That and headles Zhents... ;)
Lord Karsus 04-06-08, 01:06 AM	I sound silly?! :uh-huh: -Yes, yes you do. Listen to yourself. Read yourself. Whatever. Saying that the continent broke apart and all that happened in the course of a few minutes, and no one was harmed and the planet's ecosphere wasn't damaged is just plain ludicrous. -What book are you reading? Not my version of Evermeet: Island of the Elves. Go back and read the chapter on the Sundering again. Stardeep explains Abeir? :confused: I was going to read it, but hearing how Sci-Fi it was is keeping me clear of it... -Explains it, as in why the planet is no longer 'Abeir-Toril' (yet, it is clearly referenced as such in numerous sources), yes. I've said as much multiple times, in multiple places. You yourself have commented on my theories concerning the identities of those who perpetuated this, in which I explained what occured, as per Stardeep.
Iakhovas 04-06-08, 11:31 AM	Hmmm. Sounds like you support Eric Boyd's alternate timeline(s) theory Mark. The 'Unsundering' is too convoluted for my tastes as I prefer a unified, easy to follow timeline. So I'll have to respectfully disagree with Eric and yourself. Hell, I still say the Sundering happened in c.-24,000 DR but what do I know? For the record, the disjunction of Abeir and Toril occurs in -31000 DR which is reflected in the Grand History by continents vanishing and a "changing of the stars".
Daenaan 04-06-08, 03:38 PM	Hmmm. Sounds like you support Eric Boyd's alternate timeline(s) theory Mark. The 'Unsundering' is too convoluted for my tastes as I prefer a unified, easy to follow timeline. So I'll have to respectfully disagree with Eric and yourself. Hell, I still say the Sundering happened in c.-24,000 DR but what do I know? For the record, the disjunction of Abeir and Toril occurs in -31000 DR which is reflected in the Grand History by continents vanishing and a "changing of the stars". Well, I hope you designers enjoy the mess of "Forgotten RSEs" that have taken the place of the Forgotten Realms. In fact, just rename it Forgotten RSEs before it hits print, as that's much more accurate. I'll never buy another "Realms" product again.
Iakhovas 04-06-08, 04:57 PM	I'm not sure what your point is Daenaan. Unless you're campaign is set during the Days of Thunder, this is purely an academic discussion and has nothing to do with RSEs.
Lord Karsus 04-06-08, 05:27 PM	For the record, the disjunction of Abeir and Toril occurs in -31000 DR which is reflected in the Grand History by continents vanishing and a "changing of the stars". -This would seem to conflict with the characterization of the "primitive world" given in Stardeep, having taken place so recent, especially with the Sarrukh running around at this point.
Daenaan 04-06-08, 05:45 PM	I'm not sure what your point is Daenaan. Unless you're campaign is set during the Days of Thunder, this is purely an academic discussion and has nothing to do with RSEs. It smells like a retroactive RSE to me.
MarkusTay63 04-09-08, 05:48 PM	Unfortunely for all parties concerned, there ARE two seperate timelines, and once again, they are CANON! Hmmm. Sounds like you support Eric Boyd's alternate timeline(s) theory Mark. The 'Unsundering' is too convoluted for my tastes as I prefer a unified, easy to follow timeline. So I'll have to respectfully disagree with Eric and yourself. Hell, I still say the Sundering happened in c.-24,000 DR but what do I know?Okay, so the Sundering happened in -17,600, right? But even if it happened in -24,000 (and I could care less which), the Sundering still took place IN -31,000 DR (or earlier)! It doesn't matter which of those two dates you use, the past was still CHANGED by the spell, and everything that existed up until that point was erased and replaced with the new 'Sundered' timeline. Just because the original was wiped out by the spell, doesn't mean it didn't exist. Technically, there are two completely DIFFERENT -17,599 DR's - one just before the spell was cast, and one after the world was changed. There is only one timeline up until -31,000 (or earlier), and only one after -17,600, but between those years existed two different ones, and thats a simple fact. And if Eric Boyd and I agree, then I would say I'm in some damn good company. ;) -This would seem to conflict with the characterization of the "primitive world" given in Stardeep, having taken place so recent, especially with the Sarrukh running around at this point.Maybe they existed in the other timeline? :P Wheather you understand what happened when the ritual was cast (and it has already been stated by designers that E:IoE is apocryphal), or followed whatever happened in Stardeep (I think I need to read that now), by seperating the two worlds you change how history would have been. The Creator Races were only able to rise to power in the abscence of the Aboleths and Abeir, obviously. I thought you guys would agree with me, if for nothing else, it validates the -24,000 Date as an option in the first 'missing slice' of time. Think about it - The Elves cast the spell way back then, and something went horribly wrong. Then they re-cast it (in -17,600) to happen earlier (in -31,000?), to mitigate the effects more, and stop that first group of Elves from having cast it in the first place. Perhaps the first spell was insatant, as karsus believes, which would have practically destroyed the world, and it took the Elves 6,400 years to recover enough to fix their mistake. If you understand time travel at all (which the spell MOST DEFINATELY addresses), you would know that not only is this feasible, but it is actually pretty likely (the Elves having NO scientific knowledge of tectonics or meteorology, they would not have forseen the disasterous results of an 'Instant Sundering').
Lord Karsus 04-09-08, 06:23 PM	Unfortunely for all parties concerned, there ARE two seperate timelines, and once again, they are CANON! -MT...The 'Timeline Guy', more or less, just said 'no'... (I think I need to read that now) -If you want, I can give you a good summation of the relevant parts.
Iakhovas 04-09-08, 06:36 PM	Aaah, but George Krashos doesn't agree with the multiple time stream theory either, so that's two timeline guys that say No. :P Join us Markus, and together we can rule the galaxy! And if Eric Boyd and I agree, then I would say I'm in some damn good company. ;)
Alediran 04-09-08, 08:22 PM	For me, not only I don't belive in the two timelines (even if I'm a proponent of the infinite paralel universes formed by our decisions in RL) but I don't belive in the separation of Abeir and Toril. It's a lousy retcon made to make the lame changes to Abeir-Toril's geography.
Lord Karsus 04-10-08, 12:33 AM	-The only way I can see a multiple timeline thing working out in a good way is to have a blurb or something to that effect in the DM's Guide to the Realms explaining to DMs that the canon Forgotten Realms are Forgotten Realms 616, and that their game is Forgotten Realms 617. In other words, they have every right to change things as they want, which apparently, isn't stressed enough.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-10-08, 12:13 PM	-In other words, they have every right to change things as they want, which apparently, isn't stressed enough. I would agree that that is not stressed enough.
Lord Karsus 04-10-08, 12:17 PM	I would agree that that is not stressed enough. -And think: If it was, do you think we would be in this situation, where the Forgotten Realms are "unplayable" without major modification, due to perceptions? I certainly don't think so... -It's like that story where something like a little ripple becomes a tidal wave. A snowball rolling down the hill becomes an avalanche.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-10-08, 12:30 PM	-And think: If it was, do you think we would be in this situation, where the Forgotten Realms are "unplayable" without major modification, due to perceptions? I certainly don't think so... I wouldn't think so, either. But then again, considering some people, one never knows (remember the people who complained that the FRCS was "too hard to read/understand").
Lord Karsus 04-10-08, 12:41 PM	But then again, considering some people, one never knows (remember the people who complained that the FRCS was "too hard to read/understand"). -Mmm, that's right.
MarkusTay63 04-10-08, 02:07 PM	Aaah, but George Krashos doesn't agree with the multiple time stream theory either, so that's two timeline guys that say No. :P Join us Markus, and together we can rule the galaxy!I would join you - I like everybody here, buuuuut... No matter how you slice it, the world looked one way before the Elves cast there spell, and looked quite different after. Evermeet didn't exist until AFTER they cast their spell, but its creation was put into play by the spell in the past, so no matter how you slice it, there were most definately two different -17,601 DR's - one with an Evermeet, and one without. Now, maybe only Ao remembers the world before the Sundering spell was cast, but it did exist. That doesn't mean it still exists (that was the 'theory' part of my postulating), but it most definately did exist, and that is canon. So, if you want to believe that no one is aware of the original timeline, that is fine... but it still HAD to exist, because of the very nature of High Magic Ritual. I'm not still trying to push the Crisis/Multiple continuity theory, because I know Abeir is something else. I figure with all of Bruce Cordell's weirdness being thrown into the setting, a little 'time travel' stuff would hardly cause a stir at this point. :smirk:
Lord Karsus 04-10-08, 11:37 PM	-MT, just give it up. :P
MarkusTay63 04-13-08, 11:13 AM	I'll give up... when everybody admits I'm right. :P
Lord Karsus 04-13-08, 11:29 AM	I'll give up... when everybody admits I'm right. :P -That's not going to happen.
JaiaDrottsingr 04-13-08, 03:49 PM	I'll give up... when everybody admits I'm right. :P Step over to the dark side of the forceums, Markus, we have cookies... And Donut Tuesday... And logic... You know you want to, no, you need to be correct... We can make that happen...
Krash 04-13-08, 11:32 PM	Hmm, okay my thoughts on the Sundering. Firstly, I agree with Brian that it should have been placed in the timeline before -17,100 DR and in fact I think I asked for a date around -24,000 DR when the dating of it was discussed in the scurry to tie up LEoF. The powers that be went in another direction, so we are stuck with the date as a few discussions before GHotR confirmed. I don't agree that the Realms has multiple timestreams. I'm of the view that Evermeet was 'always there', just not as an island. In other words it was a little segment of Arvandor that was focused in that little part of the Trackless Sea from the time Abeir-Toril was created. That segment was neither visible or tangible to mortal races - it simply 'was'. The Seldarine had planned for an Evermeet from the very first instant of Torilian existence. The High Magic ritual that we know as the Sundering gave physical form to Evermeet and extracted and shaped the segment of Arvandor into a manifestation of reality that was no longer beyond mortal consciousness. I do not subscribe to the theory that the Sundering was cataclysmic in a global sense and believe that its effects were localised. Yes, it did lead to physical upheavals that manifested themselves in tidal waves and changing sea levels which would have and did have devastating effects on coastal regions and settlements (like Attornash), but on the whole I consider that stories about the devastation to be elven hyperbole to scare the other races into avoiding conflict with the 'mighty elves'. I do not think continents were shifted/smashed/overthrown/eliminated. Oh, and I'm of the view that the Sundering and the splitting of Abeir and Toril have absolutely nothing to do with each other. But that's my 2cp worth. -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 04-14-08, 07:40 AM	I do not subscribe to the theory that the Sundering was cataclysmic in a global sense and believe that its effects were localised. Yes, it did lead to physical upheavals that manifested themselves in tidal waves and changing sea levels which would have and did have devastating effects on coastal regions and settlements (like Attornash), but on the whole I consider that stories about the devastation to be elven hyperbole to scare the other races into avoiding conflict with the 'mighty elves'. I do not think continents were shifted/smashed/overthrown/eliminated. -What else explains the reason why the face of Faerūn, and the rest of the 'supercontinent' is different now? Oh, and I'm of the view that the Sundering and the splitting of Abeir and Toril have absolutely nothing to do with each other. -The novel Stardeep alludes to the hows and whys of...how and why 'Abeir' seperated from 'Toril'. There is no direct mention of the Sundering, or even Elves. I've explained my own theories, which seem to make sense. I still think that 'Abeir' and 'Toril' as seperate 'entities'- we still don't even know what 'Abeir' is; a planet, a demiplane, a plane?- is a silly notion.
Krash 04-14-08, 08:12 AM	-What else explains the reason why the face of Faerūn, and the rest of the 'supercontinent' is different now? The entry for -31,000 DR in GHotR adequately explains how the proto-continent got shaped into what we see today. -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 04-14-08, 08:16 AM	The entry for -31,000 DR in GHotR adequately explains how the proto-continent got shaped into what we see today. -- George Krashos -I see that as you see the Sundering: "Yes, it did lead to physical upheavals that manifested themselves in tidal waves and changing...I do not think continents were shifted/smashed/overthrown/eliminated." -A physical catastrophe of that magnitude would have severe consequences on the planet itself. Look at the meteor strike that elminated the dinosaurs. A magical disaster causing so much devistation is plausible, I find, because, as it is magic, things like, "Why didn't dust block the sun and cause an ice age?" can be answered with, "It's magic!".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-14-08, 01:21 PM	-What else explains the reason why the face of Faerūn, and the rest of the 'supercontinent' is different now? Platechtonics. Sorry, couldn't resist.:P :)
Lord Karsus 04-14-08, 01:32 PM	Platechtonics. Sorry, couldn't resist.:P :) -To get so much difference between now and then, wouldn't it take a little longer than just tens of thousands of years? Listen to me; "Just tens of thousands of years". -Mind you, I'm no expert on the field...Where's Dan when you need him?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-14-08, 01:33 PM	-To get so much difference between now and then, wouldn't it take a little longer than just tens of thousands of years? I think so, but as I said, that was just a flippant, off-the-cuff joke.:)
Lord Karsus 04-14-08, 01:44 PM	I think so, but as I said, that was just a flippant, off-the-cuff joke.:) -Yeah, yeah, yeah...
Alediran 04-14-08, 01:45 PM	-Mind you, I'm no expert on the field...Where's Dan when you need him? His elven sensitivities couldn't stand 4th edition.
Lord Karsus 04-14-08, 01:54 PM	His elven sensitivities couldn't stand 4th edition. -That doesn't excuse him from leaving the boards!
capnvan 04-15-08, 03:39 AM	My recollection on plate techtonic theory is a little slim, but as I recall we'd be talking at least 2 orders of magnitude in terms of time. 30,000 years is not enough to drastically alter the face of a planet. 3 million might.
Lord Karsus 04-15-08, 07:58 AM	30,000 years is not enough to drastically alter the face of a planet. -Alright, that's what I was thinking, too. -Though, the little voice on my shoulder that is Dan is chirping that you cannot mix our physics, and Faerūnian physics. But, that answer is good enough for me, since we know nothing of Faerūn's tectonic plates.
MarkusTay63 04-17-08, 11:09 PM	An invisible piece of Arvandor that was brought into physical existance with a High Magic Ritual? :uh-huh: And people don't like my idea that there were two different pasts (which I personally think is supported better by the canon, but I don't feel like arguing the point anymore). :rolleyes: And bear in mind, I'm no longer talking about the 'missing timeline' being Abeir - I realize Stardeep crapped on that. In fact, I'm not even saying an alternate timeline exists... I'm saying one did exist, and now a completely different one exists. The past was over-written, and the way I read the canon entries, thats exactly how it appears the Ritual worked IMHO. I also love the idea that Tintageer is Evermeet, and that the Elves cause their own calamity by 'mucking around' with time. :devil: But that part is just wishful thinking. Also, we already have another canon example of the Elves changing landmasses and altering coastlines in an incredibly dramatic and destructive way - Jhaamdath.
Lord Karsus 04-17-08, 11:19 PM	An invisible piece of Arvandor that was brought into physical existance with a High Magic Ritual? :uh-huh: -Yes, that's how magic works. Create Minor Object is what, a first level spell?
Khaelieth 04-18-08, 02:35 PM	Also, we already have another canon example of the Elves changing landmasses and altering coastlines in an incredibly dramatic and destructive way - Jhaamdath. But they had it coming! You log our forests - we ****et your country. Edit: THE HELL!?!? How was ****et swearing!? it's a place! P-h-u-k-e-t
Charles Phipps 04-22-08, 12:49 PM	A thing I'd like to see changed. * Support for 3rd Edition if it's cool. :-)
Lord Karsus 04-22-08, 02:52 PM	A thing I'd like to see changed. * Support for 3rd Edition if it's cool. :-) -There will be "legacy" 3e boards on this site, so discussion pertaining to rules and whatnot can continue, but I, personally, don't think that continued support, in the physical sense, is going to happen. It'd be nice, though. Double the moneymaking for WotC, activley supporting both lines.