Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheyaAbsylom 06-11-05, 02:05 AM	Hello everyone. When I got into D&D, I didn't know there were so many different settings. Now that I do, I am confused on a point or two. The one that really has me stuck is this: Forgotten Realms happens on Toril. Greyhawk happens on Toril. Does this mean that the settings are interchangeable? Do races and prestige classes transfer from one to the other? Or are they different like comparing Black Sun and Forgotten Realms? :confused:
Damador 06-11-05, 02:16 AM	wrong FR and GH are from the same cosmology - not fromthe same planet - Toril is the planet where Forgotten Realms setting is located . You can transfer prestiges etc as you like but any is designed and unique for ONE world ony in 2 edition the two worlds was conected more closelly by spelljammer ... now this is a little different
Faraer 06-11-05, 02:27 AM	The Forgotten Realms setting, created by Ed Greenwood, is, for the most part, the continent of Faerūn on the world Abeir-Toril. The World of Greyhawk, created by Gary Gygax, is called Oerth, and its main setting is the Flanaess, the eastern part of the continent of Oerik. So someone misinformed you that they were both on Toril. Part of the premise of the Realms, though, is the existence of gates (portals in 3E terminology) between the many worlds. The settings aren't interchangeable, but they have a certain amount in common. The World of Greyhawk is the world of the original D&D and AD&D games, and in the 1970s Ed Greenwood adjusted the Realms to incorporate the magic spells and monsters of D&D. And they're influenced in their different ways by a lot of the same 20th-century heroic fantasy. But the histories, natures, and to some extent game-rules details of each world's races are different, though not as different as a deliberately variant setting like Dark Sun.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-11-05, 08:47 AM	What's been said already for the most part. Prior to 3rd edition, Greyhawk and Toril were both set within the same cosmology of the Great Wheel / Planescape, and shared a common set of inner, outer and transitive planes. They were for all intents and purposes just seperate planets out in the infinite stretches of a single and common prime material plane. In 3e FR's cosmology was retroactively changed. The only explanation we ever got was, and I quote Sean K. Reynolds, "Its always been that way." What had formerly been only specific deific domains of FR deities on the larger outer planes were changed to be planes unto themselves and the planes they were on simply ceased to exist apparently, had never been linked to FR, etc. It's... a touchy subject for many folks, and a lot of people don't use the new, less detailed cosmology simply because of the tangle of continuity issues that crop up with it and a slew of prior FR lore. Of course canon 3e FR still connects to Sigil the City of Doors and the Infinite Staircase, both of which connect to FR and the original cosmology which supposedly no longer exists. They're like Schodinger's cats on a cosmological scale apparently, both existing and linking the two places and not existing now or ever at the same time it seems. *chuckle* And then there's the plane of shadow which we're told also can be used to go between FR and that prior cosmology that doesn't exist now or ever did according to some. And of course if these connections exist, that rather junks the original purpose behind the cosmology change which was nominally to make FR more special and everything centered around it rather than being a single world among an infinite number of them. The 3e stuff was, in my opinion, sort of like burning Copernicus at the stake and making schoolkids only learn the Ptolemic system. I am obviously biased of course, so go with what works for you, but be aware of what happened, why it supposedly happened, what was the canon for 20 years previous, how that worked and influenced things in FR, etc.
Thig 06-11-05, 10:45 AM	...Of course canon 3e FR still connects to Sigil the City of Doors and the Infinite Staircase, both of which connect to FR and the original cosmology which supposedly no longer exists. They're like Schodinger's cats on a cosmological scale apparently, both existing and linking the two places and not existing now or ever at the same time it seems. *chuckle* And then there's the plane of shadow which we're told also can be used to go between FR and that prior cosmology that doesn't exist now or ever did according to some. And of course if these connections exist, that rather junks the original purpose behind the cosmology change which was nominally to make FR more special and everything centered around it rather than being a single world among an infinite number of them... Shem, Have I ever told you you're my hero? :D For anyone that cares, I'll tell you how I'm working this change in. FR characters - like the characters of most settings - have always been a bit xenophobic. "We're the center of everything" seems to be EVERYONE'S mantra. To promote this belief (and to encourage the belief in primacy of the FR deities, an effort probably put forth by Ao himself), the divine powers of Toril built their own road system to places already extant. This is to say, the deific realms as laid out in every sourcebook prior to the release of 3e (the ultimate codex of which, by the way, I consider to be On Hallowed Ground) are where they say they are: Mystra's domain of Dweomerheart is, from the outside, a fair-sized berg on Elysium. `Nuff said, it's nothing that special in the Planar sense of being. Because belief defines both existence and perception on the Planes, though, from the Faerun side of Dweomerheart, it appears to be its own independent plane and, in fact, it IS. As one's perception grows, though, the larger truth of the matter becomes more evident. (I was starting with an American-centric explanation based on interstates and such, but thought of a way to almost globalize it! Go me!) Picture yourself being from a given town, we'll say Realmsville. Realmsville is all you've ever known firsthand, though you've heard of other places in stories and rumors. Realmsville is the center of the country, though, and all the other towns are just outlying areas that are good for what they do, but all the stores are in Realmsville. If you want anything, you have to come to Realmsville to get it. One day, you hop on a train because you want to go see what - oh - Dweomerheartville is like. You ride the train to Dweomerheartville, you get there, you see all the people and you get a better idea of how the people of Dweomerheartville depend on the people of Realmsville. You see this, of course, because it is what you came LOOKING for. You get back on the train and ride it back to Realmsville. Mission accomplished, you're home. A year later, you find that there's something in Dweomerheartville that you want. You get back on the train, go to Dweomerheartville, and do your business. You miss the train back to Realmsville, and you have to start exploring Dweomerheartville from the angle of understanding Dweomerheartville on its own, rather than from a Realmsville-specific viewpoint. As you wander around, you reach the edges of Dweomerheartville. Dweomerheartville has suburbs, too! You had previously thought that Dweomerheartville was simply a suburb of Realmsville, but this isn't the case - Dweomerheartville really is its own city! If you get REALLY curious at this point, you might rent a car and go driving around the suburbs. You might decide to really drive on out into the countryside, and maybe even up into the nearby mountains. As you look down upon them from on high, you realize something: Realmsville isn't the center of anything but Realmsville. It only seems that way because Realmsville is the center of everything you've ever known. I hope the illustration isn't too veiled to be useful to all those out there unaccustomed to thinking in a planar way... Shemmy, does this work as an explanation for you? <begging for a pat on the head>
Another Gnome 06-11-05, 11:20 AM	And then there's the plane of shadow which we're told also can be used to go between FR and that prior cosmology that doesn't exist now or ever did according to some. And of course if these connections exist, that rather junks the original purpose behind the cosmology change which was nominally to make FR more special and everything centered around it rather than being a single world among an infinite number of them Shemmy, Shemmy, Shemmy... let's not get carried away with these conspiracy theories. Plane of Shadow was given as an intercosmic pathway right from the beginning (i.e. FRCS), even if its status as such was only confirmed later. Anyway, from the Planescape point of view, the only effect of the change was that FR deities kissed the Wheel goodbye and took their residences with them - and in a world where there are millions of other deities around, who's going to even notice that..? Yeah, well, Planescape lore wasn't affected in a significant way; while you can no longer simply walk in one, it takes precisely one more spell to plane hop to a Torilian divine realm (provided the owner of the place hasn't locked the door) than it did before, and existing portals transfer people just like they did before, even if there's an extra turn at Shadow (and nothing indicates the traveler ever notices that happening). Sure, you need to decide if a portal to Lolth's divine realm, introduced in some hypotethical PS accessory, now dials to Oerthian Lolth on the 66th layer of Oerthian Abyss, or Torilian Lolth in the Demonweb Pits, or the 66th layer in Torilian Abyss (whatever there is these days) but I wouldn't expect anyone having a nervous breakdown over such a trivial question. Or one could just link to all of them if there's trouble deciding, each destination with a different key. As for how the Realms are affected, things get changed more, I won't try to deny that. But, what the changes affect is more what we, the omnipotent beings, know about the true nature of the world, whereas to an average Torilian, or the gods themselves, it doesn't matter a damn thing. I'm not saying that is a perfect justification, but in the end it is a matter of (in)convenience. Everything written about the Simbul wasn't invalidated just because most of her wizard levels were replaced with sorcerer, and likewise, not everything known about the old cosmology was thrown out of the window just because things now work differently from a mechanical point of view. Seriously, I do claim that most of the cosmology changes are mere technicalities; renaming planes, redirecting portals, redrawing maps - things like that still aren't rewriting history. Now, WotC could definitely have fleshed out the cosmology more upon introducing it, and yes, it was poor judgment from them to make such a wide-scale change and assume planar matters don't interest Realms fans (and/or players), but the lack of source material to explain the change, or the needlessly harsh exclusion of other worlds in the beginning (which may or may not have partially to do with the core books only -policy of the time, mind you), doesn't render the change itself invalid. The new cosmology works on its own, and what official word on it there is at this time can be tied back to old stuff without insurmountable difficulty. ... Hm... turned out to be more of a ranting towards the end than I meant it to. Edit: *pats Thig on the head*
Shemeska the Marauder 06-11-05, 11:39 AM	Shem, Have I ever told you you're my hero? :D I've been getting told this a lot lately http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/shemmysmile.gif I hope the illustration isn't too veiled to be useful to all those out there unaccustomed to thinking in a planar way... Shemmy, does this work as an explanation for you? <begging for a pat on the head> *pat on the head* It works.