Forgotten Realms and Seafaring [Archive] - Wizards Community

Forgotten Realms and Seafaring [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Solik
05-03-07, 04:29 PM Hi there,

Our group is about to sail into uncharted waters (har har) -- seafaring adventures in D&D. It's going to be something of a pirate adventure. We've gotten into some initial discussions on how we're going to do this, and some things have us stumped. Some of it is FR specific, although much of it is generic to D&D. So, I thought I'd ask the good people of the FR boards to pitch in with any advice you may have, and if there's still some more generic D&D questions to be answered, I'll wander over to the general boards and post questions there.

What basically has us stumped is how the whole concept of seafaring changes in fantasy play with high magic, specifically in the Forgotten Realms. When third-level spells can wipe out entire crews and ships, "normal" stuff like ballistae and even cannons seem useless. Not to mention the high levels of danger from various types of sea creatures.

Basically, it seems to me like jumping on a standard wooden ship with sails and sailing away is asking to die, fast.

Yet, there are ship trades, there are navies, there are pirates, and there are explorers. What tools do they use to survive amidst the great levels of danger? Are ships expected to have a group of spellcasters constantly readied to counterspell, since a single successful spell can kill everyone on board? Or is it simply expected that levels of magic are low, that spellcasters (and dangerous sea creatures) are very rare? If that's the case, how do you handle a mid to high level campaign, where you need this sort of thing to create challenges? What if you actually want to run ship-to-ship battles (especially with boarding) at these levels?

For some more specific information:

We're looking at sailing either the Sword Coast area or the Sea of Fallen Stars (the latter is preferred). Our party is levels 7-8. We don't have a boat yet, but one character has Leadership to help score a crew. We are sort of expecting to wind up running afoul of the Thayan navy at some point, if only because the DM likes running Thay as a villain. We're a neutral and chaotic good bunch, for the most part. We do have access to Stormwrack (and intend to give it a much more thorough read very shortly). All I've been able to find regarding sailing in the Forgotten Realms are three paragraphs on ships in the FRCS.

Thanks for your time and advice :)
Stigger
05-03-07, 06:02 PM The Sea of Fallen Stars supplement for 2e covered naval stuff, though it mostly concentrated on the underwater environs of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Pirates of the Fallen Stars for 2e should cover it a bit as well, and both are obviously centered around the inner sea region. They should both be available for download as PDF files from places like Paizo or DriveThruRPG or some other similar sites. Good luck with it. :)
MarkusTay63
05-03-07, 07:21 PM There was the 2e core book Of Ships and Sea, and doesn't Stormwrack have some naval rules as well? (I'm still not home so I can't check that myself.)

I plan on eventually doing a Pirate campaign book set in the realms, complete with list of all nations navies and stats for the various vessels, including 'racial' variants. However, at the currrent rate I'm producing material expect it around 2012. :rolleyes:
Stigger
05-03-07, 07:35 PM Yeah, Of Ships and the Sea was good, but the crunch is horribly out of date and mostly updated & covered in Stormwrack.
Bolithio
05-04-07, 01:04 PM Yes sailing is very dangerous. Ive have been running a maritime champaign for years, and the PCs have learned not to get into deep waters unless they really need to.

I have found the most useful supplement is "sea of fallen stars". There is alot of good source material in here that is not game edition specific. There are some real nice maps showing depths and reefs, and probably the best detail for the Pirate Isles.

Next is "Pirates of the Sea of Fallen Stars". Not a bad product either. (but the map is terrible)

Other than that, I would suggest making some good encounter tables, one for coastal and one for ocean. 95% of other ships they encounter should be within 10 miles of the coast line. I often provide rumors of ship wreaks to hammer in the dangers other sea. Also, crew morale vrs performance is a very important factor. You do not want to run out of grog!

A good weather table is useful as well. This will effect speed and visibility. I tried to wing this at first but have found that a table is better.

To survive effectively, magic is huge, and in combat ship to ship, magic give you a big edge. Some seafarers will have a priest of Umberlee, out of superstition mainly, to "protect" them. This doesn't mean these people are evil, they just respect the ***** queen in her element. This is especially true of sailors from the Pirate Isles. Other progressive sailors may follow Valkur "the mighty" or even Istishia (spelling?)

All of that said, the vast majority of ships will not have sorcerers or arcane casters.

Ships from Thay may be the most dangerous thing on the water. Not only are they stacked with powerful casters, they are said to be equipped with magic "fire projectors" that will decimate enemy ships.

Other more common skills are good seamanship, a knowledge of carpentry, rope use etc.. You often need to make repairs on the go. Also knowing were to find water from coastal or island streams is important too.

Most of the adventures will occur on and around the coast, or in islands. Below the sea is a possible avenue as well, though a difficult one to pull off. The Wyrmskull throne was a real fun adventure that was based under the fallen stars.
MarkusTay63
05-04-07, 03:00 PM Thay has primitive canons, called bombards.

However, according to 2e Forgotten realms Adventures after the ToT smokepowder technology made rapid advancements, making the use of Gunnes in the current year common place (if you wish to do so in your game).

One could assume that the Thayans Bombards have advanced as well, and given their current mercantile tendencies I would say it is a safe bet that several navies are equipping Thayan canons at this point.

The 'Fire Projectors' were more along the lines of Greek Fire, and probably a tech that was 're-discovered' in ancient 'Mulan tomes'. The Mulan peoples WERE taken from the RW Mediterranean region, and it would be perfectly acceptable to think that the settlers of Chessenta may have originally had these fire projectors.
Solik
05-04-07, 03:21 PM Thanks for the tips. I'll take a look into those sourcebooks :)

Bolithio, given that you've been running a long-term campaign like this, I'm very interested. Have you found that ship battles, at mid levels plus, tend to basically be caster battles with the lives of everyone on board up to the caster? Or are there various ways to lessen the impact of spells such that it's not so deadly and everyone can contribute? If such spells are that powerful and deadly, do you tend to avoid ship vs ship battles beyond the first few levels?
CuttinCurt
05-04-07, 04:02 PM If there is a solid truth about seafaring in the realms, or in any d&d world, it is that wizards/sorcerers on a ship are rare indeed. They command a large part of the treasure if they are hired on a pirate ship, and are almost unaffordable on a merchant vessel.

Royal Navies, mainly command ships, will probably have one, but a group of adventurers that purchase or otherwise "snag" a ship from someone, will be tough, especially with a wizard and a cleric on board.

If you have a 7th or 8th lvl wizard on your ship, then you will be nortorious for being one of the toughest crews around. However, as a pirate, if you use magic, dont be surprised when the hunter becomes the hunted, and there are multiple magic users on that ship.

If sounds like you are going to have a grand time.
Stigger
05-05-07, 08:47 AM Thayan bombards got upgraded to magical weapons in 3e, using telekinesis rather than smokepowder... I'd say it was pretty unlikely Thay would sell of that sort of firepower to potential conquered territory until they were firmly under a Thayvian flag. ;)
Bolithio
05-05-07, 10:57 AM Thanks for the tips. I'll take a look into those sourcebooks :)

Bolithio, given that you've been running a long-term campaign like this, I'm very interested. Have you found that ship battles, at mid levels plus, tend to basically be caster battles with the lives of everyone on board up to the caster? Or are there various ways to lessen the impact of spells such that it's not so deadly and everyone can contribute? If such spells are that powerful and deadly, do you tend to avoid ship vs ship battles beyond the first few levels?

Perhaps I misrepresented the amount of casting between ships. As CuttinCurt said, magic is indeed very rare in general seafaring. It will be less rare within important ships such as powerful pirates, warships from countries such as Cormyr and Thay, and of course adventures will usually have a mage. Mages though, tend to not waste skill points on swimming - just food for thought.

During ship combat, I would try to focus on non-magical fights at first - if not always. They will be more exciting, and yes, less devastating. If your party develops a habit for using magic exclusively, well than the DM will have to step it up in that sense as well. The DM can control the feasibility to use magic though, through things like weather, fog, etc.. Ships can offer false surrenders, rain may begin to fall after a fireball, etc..

Archery is actually more of a factor than anything it seems. PCs in my group ten d to avoid magic that will start fires on enemy ships, as they want the ship intact! So Archery becomes a huge player in the early rounds of ship to ship. This is something that is common on almost all ships, so take cover! Some ships have balistas or catapults, so other party members can help with these machines. Always good fun.

In our game the dangers of the sea were always well known, and it is not just combat that makes the sea dangerous. Weather and hidden reefs are perhaps the most dangerous thing sailors have to deal with. Also, undersea races can swim up and hole your ship! A common Sahuagin tactic. Basically what im saying is that there are plenty of ways to balance out the game if things appear to be on easy street for the party due to magic.
Bolithio
05-05-07, 11:03 AM The so called Thayvian Bambards used a "fluid" in 2E - which only a few red wizards new how to produce, a well guarded secret im sure. They also were "larger than a manor house in waterdeep" so i doubt you would actually see these on a ship. lol [all this from the pirates of the fallen stars book]

Greek fire projectors however may be more common on ships of war. Do not roll a 1 while operating one of these - lol
MarkusTay63
05-06-07, 12:40 AM Smaller, lighter versions designed for ship use would be a natural out-development of their old Smoke-powder tech. They may have come up with a more sophisticated way of doing things, but you can bet there is some gnome somewhere tinkering with them.

Just checked BOTH former sources - the PotFS says they fired flaming balls, similar to those balls of pitch launched by medieval catapults, and are comprised of hollow balls filled with a 'mystical' fluid. On the other hand, the 2e FRA specifically calls these HUGE canons Smokpowder weapons, and even indicates that they require 10 charges of Smokepowder to fire.

Hmmm... Obviously the former is based of of their 'Greek Fire' technology, whilst the later is based off of Smokepowder, most likely originally imported from Kara-Tur, who have had it for centuries.

I would agree that the ones on the Dragonisle and perhaps their own coastal fortresses posses the 'fireball' version, and they have never given THOSE to ANY other nation (the ones on the Pirate Isles are on 'permanent loan', and the pirates still must buy the ammunition from Thay). The FRA even goes so far to mention the older 'monstrous' bombards on the Pirate Isles as being inefficient and costly to operate (hundreds of 'charges' required per shot). The smaller, more common bombards NOW available (according to the FRA) require only Smokepowder and common 'shot', and Thay is willing to sell THOSE to acceptable buyers at a VERY high price. Those weigh a mere 2000 lbs and can be moved by a giant or winch. Don't forget with the Shou peoples being very common in eastern cities now, smokepowder is much more easily aquired. The Shou had Alchemists make it, not their Wu jen, which brings down the cost considerably.

The newer, more magical variant I would say is a Thay-only device. I would have to assume that several Zulkirs are working on different methods of improving their weaponery, just as they use completely different troop types in their private armies. This leaves it wide open for several competing technologies all coming out of Thay.

There was an entire article in Dragon a few years back entirely on this subject. Suffice it to say that smaller more reliable canons will be developed over the next few years, with both a medium and small version, and a deck-mounted 'gunne' that fired either a baseball sized shot, or more commonly shrapnel to repel boarders. Chain-shot was fun too.... :devil:

I can't wait to use all of this in my pirate campaign book... coming to a thread near you - summer 2012. ;)
Faraer
05-06-07, 03:21 PM Shipboard wizards are rare and there are usually much worse things at sea to worry about. Most ships, regardless of magic, aren't warships and don't attempt to fight heavily armed attackers. The exceptions will, yes, have their own magical protections (wards, proofs against fire, etc.) and/or mages (who have access to many more defensive magics than counterspells).
CuttinCurt
05-09-07, 11:24 AM Even though it is rare for a wizard to be on a ship, (mainly due to the dangers of it), I always did like those summon spells that granted you a Kraken type Huge Squid, or a Gargantuan Dire Great white Shark, or a school of large orcas. I always wanted to see what those spells could do at sea, but alas, in all my travels as a wizard at sea, there has never been a battle I had to deal with, so, the gargantuan great white shark was never brought into existance.

(just think of what a water elementalist could do at sea...)

But back on subject, if there is a 7th lvl wizard on a ship, then he is probably not going to make himself a target at the begining. Just think of the surprise when a pirate ship comes along the side of the vessel that this 7th lvl wizard is on, and they throw the grappling hooks and they hit a windwall and they are unable to grapple the ship, then they can not fire thier arrows either, but the ship the wizard is on surprises them with a volley catapult fire that takes out most of the pirates catapults, and the fight is on! And... the wizard never revealed himself to the other ship's crew. It's not the fireballs that make you win, (athough that does help), it is how you keep yourself a non-target to all the wizard killing pirates in the area.

As you can see, I love ship to ship battles, and with magic involved, it makes them all the more epic. Wave the white flag! My 7th lvl wizard in onboard!

hehe, CC
Bolithio
05-09-07, 12:22 PM But back on subject, if there is a 7th lvl wizard on a ship, then he is probably not going to make himself a target at the begining. Just think of the surprise when a pirate ship comes along the side of the vessel that this 7th lvl wizard is on,

AND, their mage casts Group Jump on their boarding crew, and they jump onto your ship!! The fight has been brought to your ship!

Another example of non-fireball ship to ship.

As CC mentioned an elementalist wizard would be very powerful indeed at sea. Air and Water.
CuttinCurt
05-09-07, 12:43 PM The Dreaded group jump spell... Gets me everytime Bolithio.

Ofcourse, there is the quickened spike growth spell, which on the deck of a ship would could have some curious effects, however, it is a ranger/druid spell, and thus has no place in this discussion, but, that would be cool to see a bunch of 2nd-3rd lvl rogue pirates jump 20-30 ft across the sea, only to hear them all scream in agony as they tried to find their way to safe footing before they died.

But back on subject, what other types of spells can a wizard cast and not be immediately detected.

Us seaborne mages must know if we are going to survive.
Bolithio
05-09-07, 11:27 PM Forgive me if my spells sound off - im a 2E holdout

Some of the spells in the Pirates of the Fallen Stars book had some real good practical use.

Spells like Calm Wind could really change the maneuvering phase of ship to ship in the favor of the casters ship. Oars to Snakes is another good one from that book.

Other tricky things Ive seen used - Vacancy cast on the deck of a ship. This is a good surprise - ambush tactic. [anyone who happens upon a drifting ship will certainly explore it...a good ambush tactic for DMs as well!]Mirage Arcana or Veil for a higher level mage are more solid and in depth illusionary forms for this trick.

In escape situations, spells like Solid Fog, and/or Death Fog work great. These could be useful in attack also - when used with things like Wizard Eye.

I always wanted to try to come up with an aquatic version of Distance Distortion - but never got to it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Solik 05-03-07, 04:29 PM	Hi there, Our group is about to sail into uncharted waters (har har) -- seafaring adventures in D&D. It's going to be something of a pirate adventure. We've gotten into some initial discussions on how we're going to do this, and some things have us stumped. Some of it is FR specific, although much of it is generic to D&D. So, I thought I'd ask the good people of the FR boards to pitch in with any advice you may have, and if there's still some more generic D&D questions to be answered, I'll wander over to the general boards and post questions there. What basically has us stumped is how the whole concept of seafaring changes in fantasy play with high magic, specifically in the Forgotten Realms. When third-level spells can wipe out entire crews and ships, "normal" stuff like ballistae and even cannons seem useless. Not to mention the high levels of danger from various types of sea creatures. Basically, it seems to me like jumping on a standard wooden ship with sails and sailing away is asking to die, fast. Yet, there are ship trades, there are navies, there are pirates, and there are explorers. What tools do they use to survive amidst the great levels of danger? Are ships expected to have a group of spellcasters constantly readied to counterspell, since a single successful spell can kill everyone on board? Or is it simply expected that levels of magic are low, that spellcasters (and dangerous sea creatures) are very rare? If that's the case, how do you handle a mid to high level campaign, where you need this sort of thing to create challenges? What if you actually want to run ship-to-ship battles (especially with boarding) at these levels? For some more specific information: We're looking at sailing either the Sword Coast area or the Sea of Fallen Stars (the latter is preferred). Our party is levels 7-8. We don't have a boat yet, but one character has Leadership to help score a crew. We are sort of expecting to wind up running afoul of the Thayan navy at some point, if only because the DM likes running Thay as a villain. We're a neutral and chaotic good bunch, for the most part. We do have access to Stormwrack (and intend to give it a much more thorough read very shortly). All I've been able to find regarding sailing in the Forgotten Realms are three paragraphs on ships in the FRCS. Thanks for your time and advice :)
Stigger 05-03-07, 06:02 PM	The Sea of Fallen Stars supplement for 2e covered naval stuff, though it mostly concentrated on the underwater environs of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Pirates of the Fallen Stars for 2e should cover it a bit as well, and both are obviously centered around the inner sea region. They should both be available for download as PDF files from places like Paizo or DriveThruRPG or some other similar sites. Good luck with it. :)
MarkusTay63 05-03-07, 07:21 PM	There was the 2e core book Of Ships and Sea, and doesn't Stormwrack have some naval rules as well? (I'm still not home so I can't check that myself.) I plan on eventually doing a Pirate campaign book set in the realms, complete with list of all nations navies and stats for the various vessels, including 'racial' variants. However, at the currrent rate I'm producing material expect it around 2012. :rolleyes:
Stigger 05-03-07, 07:35 PM	Yeah, Of Ships and the Sea was good, but the crunch is horribly out of date and mostly updated & covered in Stormwrack.
Bolithio 05-04-07, 01:04 PM	Yes sailing is very dangerous. Ive have been running a maritime champaign for years, and the PCs have learned not to get into deep waters unless they really need to. I have found the most useful supplement is "sea of fallen stars". There is alot of good source material in here that is not game edition specific. There are some real nice maps showing depths and reefs, and probably the best detail for the Pirate Isles. Next is "Pirates of the Sea of Fallen Stars". Not a bad product either. (but the map is terrible) Other than that, I would suggest making some good encounter tables, one for coastal and one for ocean. 95% of other ships they encounter should be within 10 miles of the coast line. I often provide rumors of ship wreaks to hammer in the dangers other sea. Also, crew morale vrs performance is a very important factor. You do not want to run out of grog! A good weather table is useful as well. This will effect speed and visibility. I tried to wing this at first but have found that a table is better. To survive effectively, magic is huge, and in combat ship to ship, magic give you a big edge. Some seafarers will have a priest of Umberlee, out of superstition mainly, to "protect" them. This doesn't mean these people are evil, they just respect the ***** queen in her element. This is especially true of sailors from the Pirate Isles. Other progressive sailors may follow Valkur "the mighty" or even Istishia (spelling?) All of that said, the vast majority of ships will not have sorcerers or arcane casters. Ships from Thay may be the most dangerous thing on the water. Not only are they stacked with powerful casters, they are said to be equipped with magic "fire projectors" that will decimate enemy ships. Other more common skills are good seamanship, a knowledge of carpentry, rope use etc.. You often need to make repairs on the go. Also knowing were to find water from coastal or island streams is important too. Most of the adventures will occur on and around the coast, or in islands. Below the sea is a possible avenue as well, though a difficult one to pull off. The Wyrmskull throne was a real fun adventure that was based under the fallen stars.
MarkusTay63 05-04-07, 03:00 PM	Thay has primitive canons, called bombards. However, according to 2e Forgotten realms Adventures after the ToT smokepowder technology made rapid advancements, making the use of Gunnes in the current year common place (if you wish to do so in your game). One could assume that the Thayans Bombards have advanced as well, and given their current mercantile tendencies I would say it is a safe bet that several navies are equipping Thayan canons at this point. The 'Fire Projectors' were more along the lines of Greek Fire, and probably a tech that was 're-discovered' in ancient 'Mulan tomes'. The Mulan peoples WERE taken from the RW Mediterranean region, and it would be perfectly acceptable to think that the settlers of Chessenta may have originally had these fire projectors.
Solik 05-04-07, 03:21 PM	Thanks for the tips. I'll take a look into those sourcebooks :) Bolithio, given that you've been running a long-term campaign like this, I'm very interested. Have you found that ship battles, at mid levels plus, tend to basically be caster battles with the lives of everyone on board up to the caster? Or are there various ways to lessen the impact of spells such that it's not so deadly and everyone can contribute? If such spells are that powerful and deadly, do you tend to avoid ship vs ship battles beyond the first few levels?
CuttinCurt 05-04-07, 04:02 PM	If there is a solid truth about seafaring in the realms, or in any d&d world, it is that wizards/sorcerers on a ship are rare indeed. They command a large part of the treasure if they are hired on a pirate ship, and are almost unaffordable on a merchant vessel. Royal Navies, mainly command ships, will probably have one, but a group of adventurers that purchase or otherwise "snag" a ship from someone, will be tough, especially with a wizard and a cleric on board. If you have a 7th or 8th lvl wizard on your ship, then you will be nortorious for being one of the toughest crews around. However, as a pirate, if you use magic, dont be surprised when the hunter becomes the hunted, and there are multiple magic users on that ship. If sounds like you are going to have a grand time.
Stigger 05-05-07, 08:47 AM	Thayan bombards got upgraded to magical weapons in 3e, using telekinesis rather than smokepowder... I'd say it was pretty unlikely Thay would sell of that sort of firepower to potential conquered territory until they were firmly under a Thayvian flag. ;)
Bolithio 05-05-07, 10:57 AM	Thanks for the tips. I'll take a look into those sourcebooks :) Bolithio, given that you've been running a long-term campaign like this, I'm very interested. Have you found that ship battles, at mid levels plus, tend to basically be caster battles with the lives of everyone on board up to the caster? Or are there various ways to lessen the impact of spells such that it's not so deadly and everyone can contribute? If such spells are that powerful and deadly, do you tend to avoid ship vs ship battles beyond the first few levels? Perhaps I misrepresented the amount of casting between ships. As CuttinCurt said, magic is indeed very rare in general seafaring. It will be less rare within important ships such as powerful pirates, warships from countries such as Cormyr and Thay, and of course adventures will usually have a mage. Mages though, tend to not waste skill points on swimming - just food for thought. During ship combat, I would try to focus on non-magical fights at first - if not always. They will be more exciting, and yes, less devastating. If your party develops a habit for using magic exclusively, well than the DM will have to step it up in that sense as well. The DM can control the feasibility to use magic though, through things like weather, fog, etc.. Ships can offer false surrenders, rain may begin to fall after a fireball, etc.. Archery is actually more of a factor than anything it seems. PCs in my group ten d to avoid magic that will start fires on enemy ships, as they want the ship intact! So Archery becomes a huge player in the early rounds of ship to ship. This is something that is common on almost all ships, so take cover! Some ships have balistas or catapults, so other party members can help with these machines. Always good fun. In our game the dangers of the sea were always well known, and it is not just combat that makes the sea dangerous. Weather and hidden reefs are perhaps the most dangerous thing sailors have to deal with. Also, undersea races can swim up and hole your ship! A common Sahuagin tactic. Basically what im saying is that there are plenty of ways to balance out the game if things appear to be on easy street for the party due to magic.
Bolithio 05-05-07, 11:03 AM	The so called Thayvian Bambards used a "fluid" in 2E - which only a few red wizards new how to produce, a well guarded secret im sure. They also were "larger than a manor house in waterdeep" so i doubt you would actually see these on a ship. lol [all this from the pirates of the fallen stars book] Greek fire projectors however may be more common on ships of war. Do not roll a 1 while operating one of these - lol
MarkusTay63 05-06-07, 12:40 AM	Smaller, lighter versions designed for ship use would be a natural out-development of their old Smoke-powder tech. They may have come up with a more sophisticated way of doing things, but you can bet there is some gnome somewhere tinkering with them. Just checked BOTH former sources - the PotFS says they fired flaming balls, similar to those balls of pitch launched by medieval catapults, and are comprised of hollow balls filled with a 'mystical' fluid. On the other hand, the 2e FRA specifically calls these HUGE canons Smokpowder weapons, and even indicates that they require 10 charges of Smokepowder to fire. Hmmm... Obviously the former is based of of their 'Greek Fire' technology, whilst the later is based off of Smokepowder, most likely originally imported from Kara-Tur, who have had it for centuries. I would agree that the ones on the Dragonisle and perhaps their own coastal fortresses posses the 'fireball' version, and they have never given THOSE to ANY other nation (the ones on the Pirate Isles are on 'permanent loan', and the pirates still must buy the ammunition from Thay). The FRA even goes so far to mention the older 'monstrous' bombards on the Pirate Isles as being inefficient and costly to operate (hundreds of 'charges' required per shot). The smaller, more common bombards NOW available (according to the FRA) require only Smokepowder and common 'shot', and Thay is willing to sell THOSE to acceptable buyers at a VERY high price. Those weigh a mere 2000 lbs and can be moved by a giant or winch. Don't forget with the Shou peoples being very common in eastern cities now, smokepowder is much more easily aquired. The Shou had Alchemists make it, not their Wu jen, which brings down the cost considerably. The newer, more magical variant I would say is a Thay-only device. I would have to assume that several Zulkirs are working on different methods of improving their weaponery, just as they use completely different troop types in their private armies. This leaves it wide open for several competing technologies all coming out of Thay. There was an entire article in Dragon a few years back entirely on this subject. Suffice it to say that smaller more reliable canons will be developed over the next few years, with both a medium and small version, and a deck-mounted 'gunne' that fired either a baseball sized shot, or more commonly shrapnel to repel boarders. Chain-shot was fun too.... :devil: I can't wait to use all of this in my pirate campaign book... coming to a thread near you - summer 2012. ;)
Faraer 05-06-07, 03:21 PM	Shipboard wizards are rare and there are usually much worse things at sea to worry about. Most ships, regardless of magic, aren't warships and don't attempt to fight heavily armed attackers. The exceptions will, yes, have their own magical protections (wards, proofs against fire, etc.) and/or mages (who have access to many more defensive magics than counterspells).
CuttinCurt 05-09-07, 11:24 AM	Even though it is rare for a wizard to be on a ship, (mainly due to the dangers of it), I always did like those summon spells that granted you a Kraken type Huge Squid, or a Gargantuan Dire Great white Shark, or a school of large orcas. I always wanted to see what those spells could do at sea, but alas, in all my travels as a wizard at sea, there has never been a battle I had to deal with, so, the gargantuan great white shark was never brought into existance. (just think of what a water elementalist could do at sea...) But back on subject, if there is a 7th lvl wizard on a ship, then he is probably not going to make himself a target at the begining. Just think of the surprise when a pirate ship comes along the side of the vessel that this 7th lvl wizard is on, and they throw the grappling hooks and they hit a windwall and they are unable to grapple the ship, then they can not fire thier arrows either, but the ship the wizard is on surprises them with a volley catapult fire that takes out most of the pirates catapults, and the fight is on! And... the wizard never revealed himself to the other ship's crew. It's not the fireballs that make you win, (athough that does help), it is how you keep yourself a non-target to all the wizard killing pirates in the area. As you can see, I love ship to ship battles, and with magic involved, it makes them all the more epic. Wave the white flag! My 7th lvl wizard in onboard! hehe, CC
Bolithio 05-09-07, 12:22 PM	But back on subject, if there is a 7th lvl wizard on a ship, then he is probably not going to make himself a target at the begining. Just think of the surprise when a pirate ship comes along the side of the vessel that this 7th lvl wizard is on, AND, their mage casts Group Jump on their boarding crew, and they jump onto your ship!! The fight has been brought to your ship! Another example of non-fireball ship to ship. As CC mentioned an elementalist wizard would be very powerful indeed at sea. Air and Water.
CuttinCurt 05-09-07, 12:43 PM	The Dreaded group jump spell... Gets me everytime Bolithio. Ofcourse, there is the quickened spike growth spell, which on the deck of a ship would could have some curious effects, however, it is a ranger/druid spell, and thus has no place in this discussion, but, that would be cool to see a bunch of 2nd-3rd lvl rogue pirates jump 20-30 ft across the sea, only to hear them all scream in agony as they tried to find their way to safe footing before they died. But back on subject, what other types of spells can a wizard cast and not be immediately detected. Us seaborne mages must know if we are going to survive.
Bolithio 05-09-07, 11:27 PM	Forgive me if my spells sound off - im a 2E holdout Some of the spells in the Pirates of the Fallen Stars book had some real good practical use. Spells like Calm Wind could really change the maneuvering phase of ship to ship in the favor of the casters ship. Oars to Snakes is another good one from that book. Other tricky things Ive seen used - Vacancy cast on the deck of a ship. This is a good surprise - ambush tactic. [anyone who happens upon a drifting ship will certainly explore it...a good ambush tactic for DMs as well!]Mirage Arcana or Veil for a higher level mage are more solid and in depth illusionary forms for this trick. In escape situations, spells like Solid Fog, and/or Death Fog work great. These could be useful in attack also - when used with things like Wizard Eye. I always wanted to try to come up with an aquatic version of Distance Distortion - but never got to it.