Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Cover [Archive] - Wizards Community

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Cover [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Uzzy
12-12-07, 11:17 AM http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/218287200

*sigh*
Miryana
12-12-07, 12:32 PM I started a thread about this but it didn't show up. Is WOTC experiencing some kind of glitch? Edit: and now my thread is there. Ouch for the accidental double-post.

Well, what upsets me more than Drizzt on the cover is the hint that a lot of time has passed since the Spellplague, leading to new kingdoms being formed. I liked the old ones just fine.
Alediran
12-12-07, 12:57 PM Where is the vomiting can?

Again HIM? I'm completely sick of seeing Drizzt in every FR product. HE IS NOT THE REALMS!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-12-07, 01:50 PM I get a good laugh imagining Drizzt on the cover of all Realms products from this point forward (to boost sales). :rofl:
Blibbering_Humdinger
12-12-07, 01:59 PM Of course, as WotC has a habit of using mock-up covers for a time before revealing the actual final cover design, there's a good chance this isn't the cover we'll see on the book itself.
Stigger
12-12-07, 02:19 PM Ugh...
MatteBlack
12-12-07, 02:40 PM Where is the vomiting can?

Again HIM? I'm completely sick of seeing Drizzt in every FR product. HE IS NOT THE REALMS!

From a marketing perspective, he is basically the Micky Mouse of the Realms. I am surprised they haven't worked crossed scimitars into a new FR logo yet.

If fanboy dollars are going to help defray the costs of my gaming books, they can put Pikachu on the cover for all I care. I just want the content within to be good.
18DELTA
12-12-07, 03:04 PM :yuck: :rolleye2: :raincloud :surrender :allalone: :noway: :bored: :blush: :uh-huh: :nonono: :bigeyes: :censored: :tantrum: :headexplo :banghead: :hoppingma
Redrake
12-12-07, 03:34 PM Ugh...

^ What he said.:rolleyes:

On the bright side, today I played the Blackguard module in NWN1 and I had the satisfaction of killing Drizzt (and his cat). The day was suddenly more joyful. :D
Lord_Tirian
12-12-07, 04:16 PM Of course, as WotC has a habit of using mock-up covers for a time before revealing the actual final cover design, there's a good chance this isn't the cover we'll see on the book itself.
Yup, take a look here (http://www.3rdedition.org/merricb/miniset03.htm), the first booster. See the artwork?

Cheers, LT.
GreenKnight
12-12-07, 04:18 PM Yup, take a look here (http://www.3rdedition.org/merricb/miniset03.htm), the first booster. See the artwork?

Cheers, LT.

He was being sold in that set, so of course they'd put him on the box artwork.
sfdragon
12-12-07, 04:22 PM and just how many threads on this must we have???

and whats on the fr players guide, hopefullly larloch?
Lord_Tirian
12-12-07, 04:32 PM He was being sold in that set, so of course they'd put him on the box artwork.
The point is: That artwork is completely identical to the artwork on the 4E FRCS cover!

But that means the artwork is fairly old. And Wizards doesn't re-use artwork that often, so it's possible that the cover is just a mock-up and we'll get a new artwork for the final cover (though it'll probably still show Drizzt).

Cheers, LT.
WhrenKehrsyn
12-12-07, 06:35 PM Wasnt one of the things Perkins and Baker said was so important about the Realms upgrade that they needed to remove the idea of omnipresent iconic NPCs? That being the case wouldnt stamping one of those very same iconic NPCs on the cover undermine that entire plan?
Blibbering_Humdinger
12-13-07, 12:36 AM Ah, so the artwork's been used before. That almost completely confirms it: this cover is a pre-release mock-up, like the Annotated Elminster one that re-used an old Elminster cover or the Sellswords one that was a hybrid of the old Servant of the Shard/Silent Blade Jarlaxle/Entreri pictures. We'll be getting a better picture soon enough, mark my words. It might include Drizzt, but it might not. In any case, it won't be this one. The Campaign Setting's main book is too important to the franchise to be recycling cover art on.
Mourn
12-13-07, 01:06 AM Wasnt one of the things Perkins and Baker said was so important about the Realms upgrade that they needed to remove the idea of omnipresent iconic NPCs? That being the case wouldnt stamping one of those very same iconic NPCs on the cover undermine that entire plan?

Drizzt isn't like that. He's a small-time hero in his own small corner of the world, fighting things like orcs. They're talking more about the Chosen, who have world-shaking abilities. For a comic book comparison, Drizzt is the lone Batman to the Chosens' Superfriends.
Stigger
12-13-07, 01:16 AM Wasn't Batman one of those Superfriends?
Mourn
12-13-07, 01:25 AM Wasn't Batman one of those Superfriends?

Hence the reason I specified "lone Batman." Batman, on his own, isn't saving the world, he's saving Gotham. The Superfriends, on the other hand, tackle world threats.
Stigger
12-13-07, 01:32 AM And apart from that awful Shade thing (which I consider a bad idea from go), just how often do we see the Chosen ganging up on Evil Afoot?
Mourn
12-13-07, 01:50 AM And apart from that awful Shade thing (which I consider a bad idea from go), just how often do we see the Chosen ganging up on Evil Afoot?

The point isn't being in a group or being alone. The point is the scale.

Batman didn't fight world threats. He fought local ones. However, when you saw him in the Superfriends, he was consistently handling world threats because the scale of that series was different than traditional Batman.
Dark Wizard
12-13-07, 02:02 AM Batman is still very much in charge of his local area. All other superheroes in Gotham answer to him at some point. Just like Drizzt within his local area. Just like the major of Sharn in Eberron, he's a 12th level fighter if I recall, a war hero. To the scale of low level adventurers, these NPCs should be causing problems or solving them actually.

Mostly it's just the prominence of these characters in novels that promotes most of this perception and level inflation through the editions. Not sure what they were thinking in 3e, stat'ing out Elminster and some others to such stratospheric levels (or CRs). Some things are better left unstat'ed and remain setting flavor.
GreenKnight
12-13-07, 02:39 AM I don't mind the high-level NPC's at all. Doesn't matter to me if Elminster is Level 35, for instance. I just wish there were more high-level evil NPC's. For every one of the Seven Sisters there should've been three evil NPC's who were just as powerful. For example, take Manshoon and Fzoul. Those guys are supposed to be at the top of the food chain, evil wise, and yet they don't have nearly as many levels as the most powerful good guys. I think the Realms would've been better off for it if Manshoon AND Fzoul had been roughly equal to Elminster. That'd also solve the problem of people feeling uncomfortable about creating a Cleric of Bane who's Level 22, because that'd make him more powerful than Fzoul. If Fzoul's Level 30, then it's no longer an issue.

Another weakness of the evil side wasn't just that the bad guys tended to be lower-level on average than the good guys, but also the fact that a lot of them were the heads of organizations. Fzoul, Manshoon, Sammaster, Szass Tam, they couldn't just go out and do whatever they liked at any time, because they had an evil empire to run. Storm Silverhand, however, doesn't have that kind of responsibility, and thus has a freer hand. Same for Elminster and a bunch of others. So not only does the Realms need more high-level evil NPC's, preferably more then the good NPC's, but it also needs more evil NPC's who have a free hand to operate, without having to look after their organization composed of 5,000 Level 1 Warriors or anything like that.

Anyway, that's my view of one of the problems with the current Realms. Not the existence of high-level good NPC's, but the lack of high-level evil NPC's.
Stigger
12-13-07, 02:45 AM The point isn't being in a group or being alone. The point is the scale.

Batman didn't fight world threats. He fought local ones. However, when you saw him in the Superfriends, he was consistently handling world threats because the scale of that series was different than traditional Batman.

I don't think I've ever gotten the impression that the Chosen were supposed to handle 'world shattering' events, I've always been left with the impression that they were supposed to survive to carry on part of Mystra's essence. Sure they get involved in stuff at critical times, like the ToT, but overall they always seemed to send in their lackeys for the most part. The only real exception to that seemed to be The Simbul (and even then she did it as well) and Dove (with the whole KoMD thing). The others always seemed to me to work mostly through their (knowing or unknowing) agents. Hells, it even states that Laeral concerns herself mostly with Waterdhavian affairs in CoS:W, not with big worldwide events. Same with Alustriel and her concerns with the Silver Marches. Storm seems to concern herself with training and directing Harpers from Shadowdale from everything I've ever read about her. Sylune's not exactly going many places more often than not, and the whole being dead kinda puts a crimp on those worldwide events. And Qilue... no idea what she's been up to in the novels, but most of the stuff I've read of her says she mostly concerns herself with the things happening in and around the Promenade. So where is that idea that they deal in world shattering scale events come from? Nothing I've ever read in sourcebook material has ever suggested that of anyone but Khelben, Elminster, and the Simbul, and even then they seem to only deal with a few very specific sorts of threats, the Malaugrym being the most prominent that I know of.
Stigger
12-13-07, 02:52 AM GK, I can think of a lot of evil NPCs who are at or near the level of the Chosen. Most of the Zulkirs come at least close, and have enough minions of sufficient level to at least hold a balance of power with things... were it not for internal strife, they'd crush Aglarond, and a number of sources have said as much. Aumvor... brought Laeral pretty low, got away with it, and is certainly free to act against her again. Larloch... no one in their right minds messes with him, Chosen included. Peshkarel in Calimshan isn't that powerful as an individual, but his control of the Calishite underworld makes him more than a match of a lot of epic heroes in capabilities. The Rundeen pretty much keeps the Harpers at bay in their areas, as does the Knights of the Shield in theirs. There are plenty of evil NPCs out there to keep everyone very busy if one takes a good look at it. I'd highly recommend Cloak and Dagger for 2e as a very good source of foes for a FR campaign, it gives a lot of stuff to work with I've found.
Hanali-in-Love
12-13-07, 02:54 AM I would love to see Todd Lockwood art of Drizzit taking a dump on a map of Faerun for the campaign cover!!!
Stigger
12-13-07, 03:06 AM So didn't need that mental image...
johnkretzer
12-13-07, 03:40 AM Drizzt isn't like that. He's a small-time hero in his own small corner of the world, fighting things like orcs. They're talking more about the Chosen, who have world-shaking abilities. For a comic book comparison, Drizzt is the lone Batman to the Chosens' Superfriends.

So that wasn't Drizzt who in the first book seris he was ever in...

1)Killed a a Balor and defeated a artifact that is a world threatening item.
2)Restored a kingdom
3) Went to Calimport and crushed the underworld organization there.
and in others...
4) Stopped a demonic invasion.
5) Stopped a drow invasion( it should be noted that a Choosen also fought and nearly got killed in that same battle)
6)etc.

Yeah sure he is mostly localized but I can't figure why any evil force would do anything in the North. Atleast the choosen are beatable.
johnkretzer
12-13-07, 03:46 AM That'd also solve the problem of people feeling uncomfortable about creating a Cleric of Bane who's Level 22, because that'd make him more powerful than Fzoul. If Fzoul's Level 30, then it's no longer an issue.

I would like to point out that Fzoul is the choosen of Bane. Make a 30th level cleric he will still answear to Fzoul...because if he doesn't respect Bane authority on who should be in charge he will be a 30th level commoner. There is more then just levels that demostrate status. So relax make what you need. (and hey if you make a 30th level Cleric of Bane if the PCs kill Fzoul guess who gets the Choosen job...)

I mean look at Mystra choosen...are they all representive of the highest level wizards? Not by far.
johnkretzer
12-13-07, 03:47 AM My feeling about Drizzt on the cover is just that it runs counter to the stated goals of the New Realms and 4th edition. Which is to make the focus on the PCs...not NPCs. It make me wonder how true that is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
12-13-07, 11:20 AM I'll also have to agree that there are plenty of very high level bad guys in the Realms (Twisted Rune, anyone?), it's just that they don't get as much press time as the Chosen of Mystra do.

I've argued before that while it's true that Drizzt is not in the same league with the Chosen of Mystra, I've seen plenty of people lump him into the same category as them anyway, and/or refer to him as the greatest warrior in the Realms (sometimes with admiration, of course). I've even read posts by fans upset at Drizzt not being powerful enough in the novels! So again it comes down to perception vs. truth.
18DELTA
12-13-07, 12:09 PM Are they not called "FANBOYS"?;):rolleyes:
18DELTA
12-13-07, 12:13 PM Hell they could put a picture of a pile of manure on the cover and I would probably buy it anyways!:eek: So what it's the emoboy on the cover. I guess now I could care less:P

:rofl: :heehee
msatran
12-13-07, 01:01 PM Well, my contention here is that if I wanted characters in my game who were superheroic, I'd play Champions. Heck, I do. I run Champions. I'm very successful at it.

The Chosen, while they are very powerful, are not superheroes. Drizzt is not a superhero either.

I have no ability to play in "Land without Mentors," because I like training rules so that PC's don't suddenly hit 30th level in 9 months.

Already, with the 4th edition mindset, I'm not liking it.
Redrake
12-13-07, 01:31 PM I don't think I even played a PnP game where the Chosen showed up. You can use them or you don't. It's as simple as that.
I think that fear about them being overpowered comes from people who never played the game, they are tempted to, but they only read the most interesting parts of the books, meaning the ones describing the places or the heroes of Faerun (Heroes Lorebook and alike). So in conclusion after reading those (it's easier to read them as mini-novels than to read the whole books about mechanics of the game), they come to the conclusion that they don't stand a chance in a world populated with so many great heroes.
Alediran
12-13-07, 01:36 PM I don't think I even played a PnP game where the Chosen showed up. You can use them or you don't. It's as simple as that.
I think that fear about them being overpowered comes from people who never played the game, they are tempted to, but they only read the most interesting parts of the books, meaning the ones describing the places or the heroes of Faerun (Heroes Lorebook and alike). So in conclusion after reading those (it's easier to read them as mini-novels than to read the whole books about mechanics of the game), they come to the conclusion that they don't stand a chance in a world populated with so many great heroes.

In my campaign the following famous NPCs have already made an appearance: The Companions of the Hall, Liriel Baenre, Alustriel and Storm Silverhand. And not even one of them ever made my player's characters like they were useless. Even Alediran's father, who is a High Elven Mage and did a short trip to the mainland, appeared only to help with a powerfull sword that could only be used by a member of Alediran's family so the fighter in the group could use it to defeat the first BBEG (after that the sword returned to Evermeet with Alediran's father).
GreenKnight
12-13-07, 05:10 PM I would like to point out that Fzoul is the choosen of Bane. Make a 30th level cleric he will still answear to Fzoul...because if he doesn't respect Bane authority on who should be in charge he will be a 30th level commoner. There is more then just levels that demostrate status. So relax make what you need. (and hey if you make a 30th level Cleric of Bane if the PCs kill Fzoul guess who gets the Choosen job...)

Him being a Chosen still seems like a recent development to me. :P But still, if there's a couple Level 30 Clerics running around, one wonders why Bane doesn't make them his Chosen, as they've clearly got more going for them.

Maybe I'm being a wee bit irrational, ;) but I honestly would prefer it if Fzoul, the Chosen of Bane, were about 10 levels higher. Same for Manshoon.

I mean look at Mystra choosen...are they all representive of the highest level wizards? Not by far.

Not quite the same, though, as types like Fzoul and Manshoon are heads of organizations and hold onto their positions from sheer power. Storm isn't the head of the Harpers, and even if she were, she wouldn't have to worry about a Level 30 Harper assassinating her in order to take over the organization. The same can't be said for the evil guys. Although that's something that Fzoul has less to worry about, as Bane no longer has the Portfolio of Strife, and as such has cut down on the strife within his own church. And Manshoon DID get muscled out of power, but so far, Fzoul's acting like the Serpentor to Manshoon's Cobra Commander.
MarkusTay63
12-13-07, 06:55 PM Since it's only a 'mock-up', then this one will do just as nicely -

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/FRCG_Cover.jpg

Hell they could put a picture of a pile of manure on the cover...They did. ;)
johnkretzer
12-13-07, 07:01 PM Him being a Chosen still seems like a recent development to me. :P But still, if there's a couple Level 30 Clerics running around, one wonders why Bane doesn't make them his Chosen, as they've clearly got more going for them.

Maybe I'm being a wee bit irrational, ;) but I honestly would prefer it if Fzoul, the Chosen of Bane, were about 10 levels higher. Same for Manshoon.

Do remember Bane likes loyality(He is the god of Tyranny)...maybe those 30th level priest of Bane are just have a little too much ambition for Bane's comfort. Or maybe he just like a public face to be his choosen so if some pesky heroes come in and kill him he still has some very heavy hitters to strike back.

Though this problem I think stems from them stating these NPCs at all. I mean I know why they do so. And they are going to do it more(because they asre trying to make everything entry level.) But I really wish they would stop it at times.
Dark Wizard
12-13-07, 07:50 PM Since it's only a 'mock-up', then this one will do just as nicely -
(SNIP)

Two words:

Dud Onahorz
johnkretzer
12-13-07, 10:43 PM Well R.Baker has said that the Drizzt picture won't be on the front cover of the FRCG. :) :D :w00t: :clap: :dancin: :cheer:

But now we might have a picture of some Shade riding a dragon...
Ianten_Silverblade
12-13-07, 11:50 PM What's next? GP being renamed "Bling Bling"?
Dark Wizard
12-14-07, 12:00 AM Shadow gold.
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 12:45 AM Two words:

Dud Onahorz

-Hells yeah!

-Well, look on the bright side. If this is indeed the official cover, it does look nice...:allalone:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uzzy 12-12-07, 11:17 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/218287200 sigh
Miryana 12-12-07, 12:32 PM	I started a thread about this but it didn't show up. Is WOTC experiencing some kind of glitch? Edit: and now my thread is there. Ouch for the accidental double-post. Well, what upsets me more than Drizzt on the cover is the hint that a lot of time has passed since the Spellplague, leading to new kingdoms being formed. I liked the old ones just fine.
Alediran 12-12-07, 12:57 PM	Where is the vomiting can? Again HIM? I'm completely sick of seeing Drizzt in every FR product. HE IS NOT THE REALMS!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-12-07, 01:50 PM	I get a good laugh imagining Drizzt on the cover of all Realms products from this point forward (to boost sales). :rofl:
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-12-07, 01:59 PM	Of course, as WotC has a habit of using mock-up covers for a time before revealing the actual final cover design, there's a good chance this isn't the cover we'll see on the book itself.
Stigger 12-12-07, 02:19 PM	Ugh...
MatteBlack 12-12-07, 02:40 PM	Where is the vomiting can? Again HIM? I'm completely sick of seeing Drizzt in every FR product. HE IS NOT THE REALMS! From a marketing perspective, he is basically the Micky Mouse of the Realms. I am surprised they haven't worked crossed scimitars into a new FR logo yet. If fanboy dollars are going to help defray the costs of my gaming books, they can put Pikachu on the cover for all I care. I just want the content within to be good.
18DELTA 12-12-07, 03:04 PM	:yuck: :rolleye2: :raincloud :surrender :allalone: :noway: :bored: :blush: :uh-huh: :nonono: :bigeyes: :censored: :tantrum: :headexplo :banghead: :hoppingma
Redrake 12-12-07, 03:34 PM	Ugh... ^ What he said.:rolleyes: On the bright side, today I played the Blackguard module in NWN1 and I had the satisfaction of killing Drizzt (and his cat). The day was suddenly more joyful. :D
Lord_Tirian 12-12-07, 04:16 PM	Of course, as WotC has a habit of using mock-up covers for a time before revealing the actual final cover design, there's a good chance this isn't the cover we'll see on the book itself. Yup, take a look here (http://www.3rdedition.org/merricb/miniset03.htm), the first booster. See the artwork? Cheers, LT.
GreenKnight 12-12-07, 04:18 PM	Yup, take a look here (http://www.3rdedition.org/merricb/miniset03.htm), the first booster. See the artwork? Cheers, LT. He was being sold in that set, so of course they'd put him on the box artwork.
sfdragon 12-12-07, 04:22 PM	and just how many threads on this must we have??? and whats on the fr players guide, hopefullly larloch?
Lord_Tirian 12-12-07, 04:32 PM	He was being sold in that set, so of course they'd put him on the box artwork. The point is: That artwork is completely identical to the artwork on the 4E FRCS cover! But that means the artwork is fairly old. And Wizards doesn't re-use artwork that often, so it's possible that the cover is just a mock-up and we'll get a new artwork for the final cover (though it'll probably still show Drizzt). Cheers, LT.
WhrenKehrsyn 12-12-07, 06:35 PM	Wasnt one of the things Perkins and Baker said was so important about the Realms upgrade that they needed to remove the idea of omnipresent iconic NPCs? That being the case wouldnt stamping one of those very same iconic NPCs on the cover undermine that entire plan?
Blibbering_Humdinger 12-13-07, 12:36 AM	Ah, so the artwork's been used before. That almost completely confirms it: this cover is a pre-release mock-up, like the Annotated Elminster one that re-used an old Elminster cover or the Sellswords one that was a hybrid of the old Servant of the Shard/Silent Blade Jarlaxle/Entreri pictures. We'll be getting a better picture soon enough, mark my words. It might include Drizzt, but it might not. In any case, it won't be this one. The Campaign Setting's main book is too important to the franchise to be recycling cover art on.
Mourn 12-13-07, 01:06 AM	Wasnt one of the things Perkins and Baker said was so important about the Realms upgrade that they needed to remove the idea of omnipresent iconic NPCs? That being the case wouldnt stamping one of those very same iconic NPCs on the cover undermine that entire plan? Drizzt isn't like that. He's a small-time hero in his own small corner of the world, fighting things like orcs. They're talking more about the Chosen, who have world-shaking abilities. For a comic book comparison, Drizzt is the lone Batman to the Chosens' Superfriends.
Stigger 12-13-07, 01:16 AM	Wasn't Batman one of those Superfriends?
Mourn 12-13-07, 01:25 AM	Wasn't Batman one of those Superfriends? Hence the reason I specified "lone Batman." Batman, on his own, isn't saving the world, he's saving Gotham. The Superfriends, on the other hand, tackle world threats.
Stigger 12-13-07, 01:32 AM	And apart from that awful Shade thing (which I consider a bad idea from go), just how often do we see the Chosen ganging up on Evil Afoot?
Mourn 12-13-07, 01:50 AM	And apart from that awful Shade thing (which I consider a bad idea from go), just how often do we see the Chosen ganging up on Evil Afoot? The point isn't being in a group or being alone. The point is the scale. Batman didn't fight world threats. He fought local ones. However, when you saw him in the Superfriends, he was consistently handling world threats because the scale of that series was different than traditional Batman.
Dark Wizard 12-13-07, 02:02 AM	Batman is still very much in charge of his local area. All other superheroes in Gotham answer to him at some point. Just like Drizzt within his local area. Just like the major of Sharn in Eberron, he's a 12th level fighter if I recall, a war hero. To the scale of low level adventurers, these NPCs should be causing problems or solving them actually. Mostly it's just the prominence of these characters in novels that promotes most of this perception and level inflation through the editions. Not sure what they were thinking in 3e, stat'ing out Elminster and some others to such stratospheric levels (or CRs). Some things are better left unstat'ed and remain setting flavor.
GreenKnight 12-13-07, 02:39 AM	I don't mind the high-level NPC's at all. Doesn't matter to me if Elminster is Level 35, for instance. I just wish there were more high-level evil NPC's. For every one of the Seven Sisters there should've been three evil NPC's who were just as powerful. For example, take Manshoon and Fzoul. Those guys are supposed to be at the top of the food chain, evil wise, and yet they don't have nearly as many levels as the most powerful good guys. I think the Realms would've been better off for it if Manshoon AND Fzoul had been roughly equal to Elminster. That'd also solve the problem of people feeling uncomfortable about creating a Cleric of Bane who's Level 22, because that'd make him more powerful than Fzoul. If Fzoul's Level 30, then it's no longer an issue. Another weakness of the evil side wasn't just that the bad guys tended to be lower-level on average than the good guys, but also the fact that a lot of them were the heads of organizations. Fzoul, Manshoon, Sammaster, Szass Tam, they couldn't just go out and do whatever they liked at any time, because they had an evil empire to run. Storm Silverhand, however, doesn't have that kind of responsibility, and thus has a freer hand. Same for Elminster and a bunch of others. So not only does the Realms need more high-level evil NPC's, preferably more then the good NPC's, but it also needs more evil NPC's who have a free hand to operate, without having to look after their organization composed of 5,000 Level 1 Warriors or anything like that. Anyway, that's my view of one of the problems with the current Realms. Not the existence of high-level good NPC's, but the lack of high-level evil NPC's.
Stigger 12-13-07, 02:45 AM	The point isn't being in a group or being alone. The point is the scale. Batman didn't fight world threats. He fought local ones. However, when you saw him in the Superfriends, he was consistently handling world threats because the scale of that series was different than traditional Batman. I don't think I've ever gotten the impression that the Chosen were supposed to handle 'world shattering' events, I've always been left with the impression that they were supposed to survive to carry on part of Mystra's essence. Sure they get involved in stuff at critical times, like the ToT, but overall they always seemed to send in their lackeys for the most part. The only real exception to that seemed to be The Simbul (and even then she did it as well) and Dove (with the whole KoMD thing). The others always seemed to me to work mostly through their (knowing or unknowing) agents. Hells, it even states that Laeral concerns herself mostly with Waterdhavian affairs in CoS:W, not with big worldwide events. Same with Alustriel and her concerns with the Silver Marches. Storm seems to concern herself with training and directing Harpers from Shadowdale from everything I've ever read about her. Sylune's not exactly going many places more often than not, and the whole being dead kinda puts a crimp on those worldwide events. And Qilue... no idea what she's been up to in the novels, but most of the stuff I've read of her says she mostly concerns herself with the things happening in and around the Promenade. So where is that idea that they deal in world shattering scale events come from? Nothing I've ever read in sourcebook material has ever suggested that of anyone but Khelben, Elminster, and the Simbul, and even then they seem to only deal with a few very specific sorts of threats, the Malaugrym being the most prominent that I know of.
Stigger 12-13-07, 02:52 AM	GK, I can think of a lot of evil NPCs who are at or near the level of the Chosen. Most of the Zulkirs come at least close, and have enough minions of sufficient level to at least hold a balance of power with things... were it not for internal strife, they'd crush Aglarond, and a number of sources have said as much. Aumvor... brought Laeral pretty low, got away with it, and is certainly free to act against her again. Larloch... no one in their right minds messes with him, Chosen included. Peshkarel in Calimshan isn't that powerful as an individual, but his control of the Calishite underworld makes him more than a match of a lot of epic heroes in capabilities. The Rundeen pretty much keeps the Harpers at bay in their areas, as does the Knights of the Shield in theirs. There are plenty of evil NPCs out there to keep everyone very busy if one takes a good look at it. I'd highly recommend Cloak and Dagger for 2e as a very good source of foes for a FR campaign, it gives a lot of stuff to work with I've found.
Hanali-in-Love 12-13-07, 02:54 AM	I would love to see Todd Lockwood art of Drizzit taking a dump on a map of Faerun for the campaign cover!!!
Stigger 12-13-07, 03:06 AM	So didn't need that mental image...
johnkretzer 12-13-07, 03:40 AM	Drizzt isn't like that. He's a small-time hero in his own small corner of the world, fighting things like orcs. They're talking more about the Chosen, who have world-shaking abilities. For a comic book comparison, Drizzt is the lone Batman to the Chosens' Superfriends. So that wasn't Drizzt who in the first book seris he was ever in... 1)Killed a a Balor and defeated a artifact that is a world threatening item. 2)Restored a kingdom 3) Went to Calimport and crushed the underworld organization there. and in others... 4) Stopped a demonic invasion. 5) Stopped a drow invasion( it should be noted that a Choosen also fought and nearly got killed in that same battle) 6)etc. Yeah sure he is mostly localized but I can't figure why any evil force would do anything in the North. Atleast the choosen are beatable.
johnkretzer 12-13-07, 03:46 AM	That'd also solve the problem of people feeling uncomfortable about creating a Cleric of Bane who's Level 22, because that'd make him more powerful than Fzoul. If Fzoul's Level 30, then it's no longer an issue. I would like to point out that Fzoul is the choosen of Bane. Make a 30th level cleric he will still answear to Fzoul...because if he doesn't respect Bane authority on who should be in charge he will be a 30th level commoner. There is more then just levels that demostrate status. So relax make what you need. (and hey if you make a 30th level Cleric of Bane if the PCs kill Fzoul guess who gets the Choosen job...) I mean look at Mystra choosen...are they all representive of the highest level wizards? Not by far.
johnkretzer 12-13-07, 03:47 AM	My feeling about Drizzt on the cover is just that it runs counter to the stated goals of the New Realms and 4th edition. Which is to make the focus on the PCs...not NPCs. It make me wonder how true that is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-13-07, 11:20 AM	I'll also have to agree that there are plenty of very high level bad guys in the Realms (Twisted Rune, anyone?), it's just that they don't get as much press time as the Chosen of Mystra do. I've argued before that while it's true that Drizzt is not in the same league with the Chosen of Mystra, I've seen plenty of people lump him into the same category as them anyway, and/or refer to him as the greatest warrior in the Realms (sometimes with admiration, of course). I've even read posts by fans upset at Drizzt not being powerful enough in the novels! So again it comes down to perception vs. truth.
18DELTA 12-13-07, 12:09 PM	Are they not called "FANBOYS"?;):rolleyes:
18DELTA 12-13-07, 12:13 PM	Hell they could put a picture of a pile of manure on the cover and I would probably buy it anyways!:eek: So what it's the emoboy on the cover. I guess now I could care less:P :rofl: :heehee
msatran 12-13-07, 01:01 PM	Well, my contention here is that if I wanted characters in my game who were superheroic, I'd play Champions. Heck, I do. I run Champions. I'm very successful at it. The Chosen, while they are very powerful, are not superheroes. Drizzt is not a superhero either. I have no ability to play in "Land without Mentors," because I like training rules so that PC's don't suddenly hit 30th level in 9 months. Already, with the 4th edition mindset, I'm not liking it.
Redrake 12-13-07, 01:31 PM	I don't think I even played a PnP game where the Chosen showed up. You can use them or you don't. It's as simple as that. I think that fear about them being overpowered comes from people who never played the game, they are tempted to, but they only read the most interesting parts of the books, meaning the ones describing the places or the heroes of Faerun (Heroes Lorebook and alike). So in conclusion after reading those (it's easier to read them as mini-novels than to read the whole books about mechanics of the game), they come to the conclusion that they don't stand a chance in a world populated with so many great heroes.
Alediran 12-13-07, 01:36 PM	I don't think I even played a PnP game where the Chosen showed up. You can use them or you don't. It's as simple as that. I think that fear about them being overpowered comes from people who never played the game, they are tempted to, but they only read the most interesting parts of the books, meaning the ones describing the places or the heroes of Faerun (Heroes Lorebook and alike). So in conclusion after reading those (it's easier to read them as mini-novels than to read the whole books about mechanics of the game), they come to the conclusion that they don't stand a chance in a world populated with so many great heroes. In my campaign the following famous NPCs have already made an appearance: The Companions of the Hall, Liriel Baenre, Alustriel and Storm Silverhand. And not even one of them ever made my player's characters like they were useless. Even Alediran's father, who is a High Elven Mage and did a short trip to the mainland, appeared only to help with a powerfull sword that could only be used by a member of Alediran's family so the fighter in the group could use it to defeat the first BBEG (after that the sword returned to Evermeet with Alediran's father).
GreenKnight 12-13-07, 05:10 PM	I would like to point out that Fzoul is the choosen of Bane. Make a 30th level cleric he will still answear to Fzoul...because if he doesn't respect Bane authority on who should be in charge he will be a 30th level commoner. There is more then just levels that demostrate status. So relax make what you need. (and hey if you make a 30th level Cleric of Bane if the PCs kill Fzoul guess who gets the Choosen job...) Him being a Chosen still seems like a recent development to me. :P But still, if there's a couple Level 30 Clerics running around, one wonders why Bane doesn't make them his Chosen, as they've clearly got more going for them. Maybe I'm being a wee bit irrational, ;) but I honestly would prefer it if Fzoul, the Chosen of Bane, were about 10 levels higher. Same for Manshoon. I mean look at Mystra choosen...are they all representive of the highest level wizards? Not by far. Not quite the same, though, as types like Fzoul and Manshoon are heads of organizations and hold onto their positions from sheer power. Storm isn't the head of the Harpers, and even if she were, she wouldn't have to worry about a Level 30 Harper assassinating her in order to take over the organization. The same can't be said for the evil guys. Although that's something that Fzoul has less to worry about, as Bane no longer has the Portfolio of Strife, and as such has cut down on the strife within his own church. And Manshoon DID get muscled out of power, but so far, Fzoul's acting like the Serpentor to Manshoon's Cobra Commander.
MarkusTay63 12-13-07, 06:55 PM	Since it's only a 'mock-up', then this one will do just as nicely - http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/FRCG_Cover.jpg Hell they could put a picture of a pile of manure on the cover...They did. ;)
johnkretzer 12-13-07, 07:01 PM	Him being a Chosen still seems like a recent development to me. :P But still, if there's a couple Level 30 Clerics running around, one wonders why Bane doesn't make them his Chosen, as they've clearly got more going for them. Maybe I'm being a wee bit irrational, ;) but I honestly would prefer it if Fzoul, the Chosen of Bane, were about 10 levels higher. Same for Manshoon. Do remember Bane likes loyality(He is the god of Tyranny)...maybe those 30th level priest of Bane are just have a little too much ambition for Bane's comfort. Or maybe he just like a public face to be his choosen so if some pesky heroes come in and kill him he still has some very heavy hitters to strike back. Though this problem I think stems from them stating these NPCs at all. I mean I know why they do so. And they are going to do it more(because they asre trying to make everything entry level.) But I really wish they would stop it at times.
Dark Wizard 12-13-07, 07:50 PM	Since it's only a 'mock-up', then this one will do just as nicely - (SNIP) Two words: Dud Onahorz
johnkretzer 12-13-07, 10:43 PM	Well R.Baker has said that the Drizzt picture won't be on the front cover of the FRCG. :) :D :w00t: :clap: :dancin: :cheer: But now we might have a picture of some Shade riding a dragon...
Ianten_Silverblade 12-13-07, 11:50 PM	What's next? GP being renamed "Bling Bling"?
Dark Wizard 12-14-07, 12:00 AM	Shadow gold.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 12:45 AM	Two words: Dud Onahorz -Hells yeah! -Well, look on the bright side. If this is indeed the official cover, it does look nice...:allalone: