Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SilverWolf 08-06-05, 01:38 PM	I have decided to buy either the FR or the Eberron campaign setting, but cannot decide which to buy. I am going to use some of the materials from whichever one I buy for a homebrew setting. Please tell me your opinion and why. Currently, I am favoring FR.
Faraer 08-06-05, 02:30 PM	I don't think our preferences are going to be much help to you. On this forum you'll mostly get (legitimate) praise of the Realms and (partly legitimate, partly misinformed) criticism of Eberron; and vice versa if you posted on the Eberron boards. I think you'd do best by reading some of Keith Baker's "Dragonshards" and Ed Greenwood's "Realmslore" and see which world's spirit you prefer. They're different enough that most people are going to like one better than the other.
Majorafire77 08-06-05, 05:16 PM	I have decided to buy either the FR or the Eberron campaign setting, but cannot decide which to buy. I am going to use some of the materials from whichever one I buy for a homebrew setting. Please tell me your opinion and why. Currently, I am favoring FR. While I'm not sure about FR, I know that Eberron is really easy to adapt to another campaign/setting. Dragonmarked houses and many of the organizations in Eberron are very easy to stick into another setting. With Eberron you get four new races and a new class that can be put into a homebrew setting with minimal effort, with FR you get a slew of elves and a crap load of new gods. I see that you haven't posted this question on the Eberron general board, so I guess you're looking for biased information. I guess my answer wasn't what you expected :)
Demetrios 08-06-05, 05:59 PM	I have decided to buy either the FR or the Eberron campaign setting, but cannot decide which to buy. I am going to use some of the materials from whichever one I buy for a homebrew setting. Please tell me your opinion and why. Currently, I am favoring FR. The Realms has such a deep treasure trove of background information and interesting people and organizations that there are literally thousands of ideas, places, and people you can port over to a homebrew campaign. And lots of that information can be found in the FRCS. Though honestly, both of them have some supremely adaptable stuff. I'm biased towards the Realms, of course, but Eberron has some excellent concepts such as the warforged and living spells, both of which I have enthusiastically adapted for my FR campaigns. But Eberron is barely a year old while the Realms has nearly 20 years of printed product history, so in sheer volume of concepts to choose from, the Realms win hands-down...
allenchan 08-06-05, 09:53 PM	I love Eberron, but what really makes me an FR fan is the faiths and pantheons. I dislike Eberron's lack of dieties... the things about Eberron that I love the most (action points, changelings, and warforged) I just incorporate into my FR campaigns
Zanan 08-07-05, 04:28 AM	Why not take a look at some of the older material, such as Cormanthyr, Tethyr or The North, for example. While it is all AD&D, the background still holds true in most of the cases. Download section (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads)
Charles Phipps 08-07-05, 04:55 AM	This will be a fair and UNBIASED assessment that I nevertheless hope inspires hordes of responses because I love being the subject of discussion. Eberron Pros: Eberron has it over Forgotten Realms in terms of simplicity and realism to a great extent. There's the Sovereign Host, the Silver Flame, The Dark Six, and some cults with that more or less the entirety of religion in the land. The only easier pantheon is the Dragonlance one. Eberron also lacks Chosen and weird abilities thereof to keep track of. Eberron favors a single continent whose twelve kingdoms and various secret societies are relatively easy to keep track of along with the politics. You only need to read the book once or twice to comprehend all the secret societies and how they relate to them. Eberron also has it over Forgotten Realms in terms of flavor. FR has the slight problem of being fairly generic honestly save FOR the Archmages and wackiness of overthetopness that it's famous for. Eberron's weird post WW1 feel is mixed with magic and technology that's rather reminiscent of Final Fantasy. Eberron's alignment system is the most accurate since it basically says "alignment is related only to a person's own ethics" and there's no case of 'All Vampires are evil as are Orcs.' Also, good people can do bad things while bad people can be beneficial to society. Changelings, Warforged, and Shifters are some of the more memorable new races to come into play with the elves of Eberron being some of the more unique races of play. Everything has a unique spin versuses the blandness of genericism that infests much of FR. The cosmology of Eberron is also consistent with the Abyss/Nine Hells not being tacked on along with Elven Racial pantheons to the main gods etc. It's also much easier to keep track of racial dissent and why the hell a Troll exists in Eberron than it is in FR. Forgotten Realms Pros Forgotten Realms has a benefit to it that Eberron does not. Things ARE crystal clear in FR and there is the possibility of rousing armies of 10,000 or more orcs that will march across the land that rape, pillage, plunder and butcher with no thought to good or evil under the command of an archwizard and...well you really don't have to explain it. Forgotten Realms is like Oz, if something bizarre happens you don't much have to justify it because the world's got more magic crammed into every corner of the place than every other campaign world combined. The Realms also have the largest selection of resource material...well period. Interventionalist gods and Chosen are a plus for some because of the fact that they're well designed and interesting personalities.
Faraer 08-07-05, 01:43 PM	Charles, half of that is flat-out wrong. You don't have to keep track of weird Chosen abilities because they're not intended for use in play. Your comments about lack of 'flavor...fairly generic...blandness' are proved wrong by the fact that people react strongly to Ed Greenwood's very specific and strongly flavoured work. What makes the Realms the Realms is its intimate details and workings, the lovingly crafted immanent history, the Realmspeak and as-if-real detailing and dense characterization, not counterfactual 'overthetopness'. The Realms is not crystal clear: it takes years to really understand the intricacies of its histories, magics, themes, and subtleties, as evinced by the misconceptions that abound about it. Whether or not you have to explain things in the Realms, the fact is that its behind-the-scenes workings are developed with great detail and verisimilitude. Ed is a guy who develops entire ancient civilizations to justify modern-day treasure hoards, and writes entire boxes of background notes that may never see the light of day in play. Your comment about its level of magic is a gross and misleading exaggeration. Neither does it have interventionist gods.
Charles Phipps 08-07-05, 01:59 PM	Charles, half of that is flat-out wrong. You don't have to keep track of weird Chosen abilities because they're not intended for use in play. Your comments about lack of 'flavor...fairly generic...blandness' are proved wrong by the fact that people react strongly to Ed Greenwood's very specific and strongly flavoured work. What makes the Realms the Realms is its intimate details and workings, the lovingly crafted immanent history, the Realmspeak and as-if-real detailing and dense characterization, not counterfactual 'overthetopness'. The Realms is not crystal clear: it takes years to really understand the intricacies of its histories, magics, themes, and subtleties, as evinced by the misconceptions that abound about it. Whether or not you have to explain things in the Realms, the fact is that its behind-the-scenes workings are developed with great detail and verisimilitude. Ed is a guy who develops entire ancient civilizations to justify modern-day treasure hoards, and writes entire boxes of background notes that may never see the light of day in play. Your comment about its level of magic is a gross and misleading exaggeration. Neither does it have interventionist gods. The bolded parts I heartily disagree with. If they're in the book then they're intended for use in play. The first part is that Ed greenwood lost control of his ship very early in the game and everyone added EVERYTHING to the place. The Moonshae Trilogy is a minor breach of his vision but later, the Elves worshipped the Greyhawk Elven pantheon and it snowballed from there. Ed's started to slowly regain his control over things but a lot of the "intimacy" of the setting is colored by stuff straight out of the Monstrous Manual. We also have a very different view of what interventionalist looks like. Can you give me a definition of interventionalist that makes other settings have less influential gods?
Faraer 08-07-05, 02:11 PM	Those characters are detailed in the book because people demand it. Neither Ed nor any other Realms designers recommend DMs using them directly. What difference does it make exactly how much control Ed has? The fact is that the stuff I describe is there, in millions of words of sourcebook and novel lore, which outbulks D&D imports by an order or two of magnitude. The Ward/Moore pantheon is not the 'Greyhawk Elven' pantheon: those gods initially weren't tied to any world, but they were assumed by the (official) World of Greyhawk and the Realms (voluntarily) in parallel, soon after publication. I mean that they don't intervene. They work through their priesthoods and subtle manifestations (except during the Time of Troubles, but the whole point of that event is that the gods walking Faerûn is extraordinary and exceptional).
Charles Phipps 08-07-05, 02:22 PM	Those characters are detailed in the book because people demand it. Neither Ed nor any other Realms designers recommend DMs using them directly. And as well they should. What difference does it make exactly how much control Ed has? The fact is that the stuff I describe is there, in millions of words of sourcebook and novel lore, which outbulks D&D imports by an order or two of magnitude. The Ward/Moore pantheon is not the 'Greyhawk Elven' pantheon: those gods initially weren't tied to any world, but they were assumed by the (official) World of Greyhawk and the Realms (voluntarily) in parallel, soon after publication. Because it means that the "consistent vision" of the Realms you're lauding is compromised and the resulting work has become disjoined in many areas. Kara-Tur originally had no place in the Forgotten realms and was causally tacked on along with a lot of other stuff. I mean that they don't intervene. They work through their priesthoods and subtle manifestations (except during the Time of Troubles, but the whole point of that event is that the gods walking Faerûn is extraordinary and exceptional). By intervene, I mean that they take a direct and active hand. Sauron is a HIGHLY interventionalist deity even if he is just a gigantic eye. If a plot can be traced back to Bane then it's Bane.
Faraer 08-07-05, 02:43 PM	However disjoined, and the degree is debatable -- though observably it's mainly on the margins, far from most campaigns, as in both your Moonshae and Kara-Tur examples -- I can't see how any of that nullifies all the careful, eccentric, massively creative work that takes the Realms so far from blandness. Lots of people love it, right? They're not engaged with something that's not there. OK, we're talking about different ideas of intervention. But still, if a plot can be tracked back to Bane but is executed by his minions, that's an indirect hand, not a direct hand -- especially since Realms priesthoods aren't anything like unified instruments with a constant and reliable link to their god. Realms gods are no more active than those of the World of Greyhawk (including a demigod who lives on Oerth and rules a nation there, and a significant chance of a god appearing in person when called in the original DMG, appearances by St. Cuthbert and Zuggtmoy, etc.) or Krynn.
Faraer 08-07-05, 03:27 PM	Also on the idea of 'generic...bland': what is true is that the broad outline of the Realms is that of traditional swords and sorcery, leavened with high fantasy elements. Within that outline, it's as distinctive as you could wish for. Eberron, in contrast, is a deliberate and conscious genre hybrid with a modern sensibility, and is certainly a better choice for someone who wants that rather than a world firmly in the sword-and-sorcery tradition. For someone who wants that stuff, the Realms might (from a distance) look bland; to someone who doesn't Eberron might seem gimmicky. Neither of those assessments are fair.
elvenwizard 08-07-05, 04:03 PM	Of the two, definitely go with FR. Faerun has a rich history with dozens of different unique cultures and ancient empires. In Eberron, though, almost everything springs from the old Kingdom of Galifar. There is very little information pertaining to other cultures, kingdoms, or even the history of Khorvaire prior to Galifar. Now, to be fair, I will admit that a lot of this is due to the fact that Eberron is a new setting, where as FR has had years to germinate.
Kid SixXx 08-07-05, 06:01 PM	I have decided to buy either the FR or the Eberron campaign setting, but cannot decide which to buy. I am going to use some of the materials from whichever one I buy for a homebrew setting. Please tell me your opinion and why. Currently, I am favoring FR. If you favor the FR, then play the FR. Either way you can't go wrong, as both campaigns have their own merits and charms. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to do a bit more fleshing of my Xen'Drik Drow BBEG's before running Part 2 of the Dragonshard Trilogy modules from Dungeon. ;) There is very little information pertaining to other cultures, kingdoms, or even the history of Khorvaire prior to Galifar. Now, to be fair, I will admit that a lot of this is due to the fact that Eberron is a new setting, And that some of the information will never be known, because that information is left for individual DM's to develop. I dislike Eberron's lack of dieties... I beg to differ. Divine magic in Eberron is granted by faith, and not necessarily by deities. The existance of "gods" as physical beings hasn't even been proven on Eberron. The only known physical thing that is even remotely believed to be divine is the Silver Flame. Living (or in the case of Vol, unliving) beings (ie. The Lord of Blades) have formed cults of personality around themselves, and the faith of their zealots and followers has granted them clerical abilities. The divine magic of the Elves of Eberron is generated through ancestor worship, not unlike the ancestor worship you find in Shinto. There are plenty of sources of divine magic in Eberron. They just aren't all codified to a particular deity as they are in the FR.
GothicDan 08-07-05, 06:44 PM	I love me some deities.
Kid SixXx 08-07-05, 07:04 PM	I love me some deities. So did the Romans, & their empire fell. Seriously though, go with the setting you feel the strongest affinity to. Either way, you won't make an incorrect choice. What matters is that you have fun.
allenchan 08-07-05, 09:31 PM	(snip) I never said there wasnt divine magic, our views are actually the same. Yes, people get divine spells. Did I say they did not? No, I said there were no Gods, which is true. In Eberron, people arent sure if the gods even exist or not, its right in the ECS. I just like have 100 different gods that each control a different aspect of the world (which is more like Shinto then Eberron, actually. Kamis and all that.)
BrianCritchley 08-07-05, 09:33 PM	forgotten realms is in many cases an example of CLASSIC Dungeons and dragons. versus the Variant Dungeons and Dragons Ebberon is.
Arden Blackleaf 08-07-05, 10:27 PM	If you want rich background and extremely high magic and a land where anything is possible go FR. If you want a grittier, darker campaign setting. with a touch of realism and where the world is not black and white. Go Eberron. I like both. Though I'd consider myself more of an Eberron fan.
Alac Luin 08-07-05, 10:43 PM	Thing is, the person asking is looking to pilpher for thier homebrew. I am a fan of both settings. I do prefer the history and depth of the Realms. If you look at just the CS books (FRCS and ECS), I would have to say the ECS has more "new" things (rules, monsters, pc races face it the FRCS races are already printed in the MMs, etc) in it to add to a world.
Alac Luin 08-07-05, 10:47 PM	If you want a grittier, darker campaign setting. with a touch of realism and where the world is not black and white. Go Eberron. You do realize, the Realms can be this way also?
Charles Phipps 08-07-05, 11:05 PM	You do realize, the Realms can be this way also? Yes and Eberron could be traditional high fantasy. It's not meant to be that way though. I've got nothing against the fact that Forgotten Realms was designed to be a game that replicates largely the feel of stuff like Tolkien and "classic D&D" with its own flavor. Some people may have their mileage vary though.
Faraer 08-07-05, 11:15 PM	About the Realms... Extremely high magic? Yes, by non-D&D standards. By D&D standards, Realms magic is greater in variety, but not especially so in quantity. Anything is possible? The Realms is versatile, but it has its own styles and shapes, and the 'all things to all men' approach was a bad-tasting mistake TSR made. Black and white? No. Ed said:I rarely think of the Realms in clear-cut ‘good’ versus ‘evil’ terms: if one considers it a ‘real’ place, most creatures are ‘gray’ rather than black and white: they’re essentially selfish, but lack a vicious, predatory side to their everyday behaviour.Replicates largely the feel of Tolkien and classic D&D? Tolkien is one influence among many (Ed lists some of them here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/greenwoodap2005)). The Realms precedes D&D, so can't be said to replicate it, though Gygaxian D&D has influenced it as well as all those other things. And indeed, we haven't been answering the questioner's question.
Alac Luin 08-07-05, 11:25 PM	And indeed, we haven't been answering the questioner's question. I tried. :P :D
Bullet-proof Monk 08-08-05, 12:37 AM	Extremely high magic? Yes, by non-D&D standards. By D&D standards, Realms magic is greater in variety, but not especially so in quantity. I myself think of the Realms as a High Magic setting, and have read many posts by other board members that agree. Faerun is plagued by EVER so many epic level(or near)casters. In many cases it is the single most influential force within the Realms, as are those who wield its power. If one were to generate a list of Faeruns most powerful citizens, easily 80%(or more)of that collection of characters would be spellcasters. Please keep in mind that I myself am a long-time Realms fan(early 2e on). I just disagree w/those that have said or stated that it isnt a high magic setting. Many of this boards most active members seem to think otherwise aswell.
Charles Phipps 08-08-05, 12:43 AM	I myself think of the Realms as a High Magic setting, and have read many posts by other board members that agree. Faerun is plagued by EVER so many epic level(or near)casters. In many cases it is the single most influential force within the Realms, as are those who wield its power. If one were to generate a list of Faeruns most powerful citizens, easily 80%(or more)of that collection of characters would be spellcasters. Please keep in mind that I myself am a long-time Realms fan(early 2e on). I just disagree w/those that have said or stated that it isnt a high magic setting. Many of this boards most active members seem to think otherwise aswell. It's largely a matter of scale. People may say FR is a reasonable magic setting but what setting are we using as default?
Faraer 08-08-05, 01:15 AM	As I said, the Realms is somewhat high-magic compared to D&D, which is already high-magic by non-D&D standards. But a popular conception underrates the importance of magic variety and overstresses the quantity, due to things like wrongly equating the importance of the Chosen of Mystra to the publishing program with their importance in the setting, good ol' Chinese whispers, etc. Look at how some people blow Larloch out of all proportion, as if his having lots of levels makes him a major factor in the Realms when almost no one has seen him and few have heard of him. Or the Shrinshee, or several other characters. There are lots of high-level mages, but in the life of either a typical Faerûnian or a typical PC -- or a typical fiction protagonist if the established authors got to write the books they wanted -- magic doesn't play all that much a greater role than in the norm of (any version of) D&D. The Realms is high-magic but you have to look at the sources in detail rather than make assumptions based on what you think 'high magic' means. Most of the knowledgable board veterans would agree, I think.
warlockco 08-08-05, 01:49 AM	Realms vs Eberron for material for a Homebrew Setting. Personally I would go with the Realms, with occasional material from Eberron. Why, well for starters if I'm on a budget I can go HERE (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) and get a bunch of free downloads of 2nd Edition material for the Realms. Anyone that looks at ALL the NPCs that I have posted on the Realms NPCs thread, will noticed that I have used feats from Eberron and Dragonlance. I have even used feats from 3rd party sources (Green Ronin Publishing mainly). My personal world setting is based in the Realms, but with several alterations depending on the specific campaign I'm running. For instance in my Drow Campaign, which is based out of Menzoberranzan, House Do'Urden never fell from grace and Zaknalfien and Drizzt are the top two weaponmasters of Menzoberranzan. In another campaign, the Time of Troubles never happened. So Mystra is still Lawful Neutral, Cyric and Kelemvor never became gods, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul never died. One of the biggest reasons I use the Realms as the core of my personal setting is because I can be "Lazy" and just grab a city or other location from a book and use it as it or make my own changes to it. (much to the surprise and dismay of some players attempting to use knowledge thier characters wouldn't have)
BrianCritchley 08-08-05, 02:41 AM	in general if you're looking for New stuff, go check out ebberon, but if you're looking for a setting that takes the old stuff and makes masterful use of it, go with forgotten realms
Kid SixXx 08-08-05, 06:56 AM	No, I said there were no Gods, which is true. In Eberron, people arent sure if the gods even exist or not, its right in the ECS. I also have the ECS, and that's not exactly true. Keith has stated over and over that Eberron does indeed have deities, but their existance has never been proven. They could be actual beings, or merely extensions of faith; that wrinkle has been left up to DM's to interpret much like most of the other deliberately vague events which happen on Eberron. Keith will never comment one way or the other. The details are left for us to decide. The only source of otherworldly power which obviously exists is the Silver Flame. I just like have 100 different gods that each control a different aspect of the world (which is more like Shinto then Eberron, actually. Kamis and all that.) Actually, the multitude of deities always struck me as classical polytheism. The worship system in Kara-Tur strikes me as somewhat Shinto in flavor. There is no "father god" akin to Zeus or Odin (ex. I don't count Ao as a "father god" as he has no relationship with mortals. I make a distinction between "father god" and "overdeity" for ease of explanation.), but the structure is quite similar.
Cole Deschain 08-08-05, 11:59 AM	There are plenty of sources of divine magic in Eberron. They just aren't all codified to a particular deity as they are in the FR. Not unlike Dark Sun, with its Templars, Elemental Clerics, and variant druids. Part of why I regard Eberron as nothing special, actually- it feels like a fairly well-crafted homebrew world that's being given a shot at legitimate life. If WotC stops pushing it too soon, it'll suffer Greyhawk's fate: Devoted fans and little to no new material. Edit: As a note, the Realms enjoys a brutally unfair advantage as far as my opinion goes, since it was rapidly becoming the "generic" world when I seriusly got into D&D- therefore, my earlier comment has little to do with empirical fact, and everything to do with the order in which I encountered the settings.
Faraer 08-08-05, 12:22 PM	I have a basic question: did Keith Baker create Eberron for the setting call, or was it a previously existing campaign world? Or somewhere in between?
Kid SixXx 08-08-05, 12:33 PM	I have a basic question: did Keith Baker create Eberron for the setting call, or was it a previously existing campaign world? Or somewhere in between? Keith created it for the setting call. I'm under the impression that Eberron was his homebrew world beforehand. Part of why I regard Eberron as nothing special, actually- it feels like a fairly well-crafted homebrew world that's being given a shot at legitimate life. . Ultimately all settings are homebrew worlds given legitimate shots at life. Greyhawk evolved from the EGG (ie. some of the countries on Oerth are named after friends of the EGG, as well as playtesters.), and the rules for D&D were stretched over Ed Greenwood's archiatecture to create the codified setting. As we all know, Faerun itself lived in Ed's brain and existed in the form of articles long before it was ever formalized into a setting. I'm having a bit of trouble seeing how your criteria serves as a qualifier of one setting being "special" as opposed to another. The primary difference between Eberron & FR is that Eberron is built with game mechanics in mind, while the FR material has been engineered to scale up with whatever D&D mechanics are at hand. Two different approaches. Quality is naturally dependant on the preferences of the users.
Bullet-proof Monk 08-08-05, 12:48 PM	Try looking into the setting created and maintained by Sword & Sorcery studios : Scarred Lands Its a wonderfully developed setting, that has some great ideas to offer that are neither Realms or Eberron. I would suggest visiting the Scarred Lands site and message boards in order to gain a little insight into what the world is all about. I think you'll find it a pleasant surprise. As I recall, the entire setting library consists of 36 books(at present). That is excluding the generic Creature Collection books(aka Monsterous compendiums)that I believe there are 3 volumes of.
Cole Deschain 08-08-05, 12:55 PM	I'm having a bit of trouble seeing how your criteria serves as a qualifier of one setting being "special" as opposed to another. Read my whole post, Bunky.
Kid SixXx 08-08-05, 02:16 PM	Read my whole post, Bunky. This clarifies things how, and matters to me why? You're stating the obvious when you say that the FR is more developed and predates Eberron. Eberron feels like a homebrew campaign? So what? As I said before, ultimately all settings are homebrews at some point in time, so this criteria seems pointless. Perhaps if you'd stated that the presentation and treatment of FR material appealed to you, as opposed to the way material is handled in other settings, then perhaps I'd have considered your comments to be remotely logical. In which case I'd agree. The FR material, to date, has been more or less religiously handled in reference to Ed's visions. Faerun, as opposed to other settings, has a vivid sense of history, and that treatment gives the setting a lasting and endearing quality. Naturally, the primary reason the setting is so endearing is because Ed has created endearing, memorable characters to populate his setting. Eberron feels generic because most of the blanks in the world are left for the DM to fill in. This can be either a blessing or a curse: world builders may love the setting, while folks used to the FR's rich sense of development, may hate Eberron. Either way, it only proves that both settings are not one size fits all campaigns.
Cole Deschain 08-08-05, 02:28 PM	This clarifies things how, and matters to me why? At what point did I said I had a fair and unbiased opinion, vato homeboy/dude? At what point did I make that claim? You act like I've stated an intention to murder the developers or something. Here, I'll repeat it for you, since you seem terminally unable to figure out what I'm talking about- Edit: As a note, the Realms enjoys a brutally unfair advantage as far as my opinion goes, since it was rapidly becoming the "generic" world when I seriusly got into D&D- therefore, my earlier comment has little to do with empirical fact, and everything to do with the order in which I encountered the settings.
Faraer 08-08-05, 02:30 PM	A few miscellaneous points: -- While the World of Greyhawk did emerge from Gary Gygax's Greyhawk Campaign, which began in 1972, the geography of the published setting (1980 folio and on) was drawn up for that product, though the central region around Greyhawk City and the Nyr Dyv is much as it was in Gary's original world. -- It's not accidental that the Realms and Greyhawk, the two most-loved of D&D settings, came out of spontaneous individual writing and game play rather than being contrived by staff writers at TSR. -- While I don't doubt either Gary Gygax or Keith Baker's sincerity in advocating a certain relatively minimal level of setting detail for filling-in by individual DMs, detail does accumulate over time anyway (Gary planned to develop the Wild Coast, Stoink, etc.), and sometimes, to an extent, such philosophies are making a virtue out of a necessity.
Kid SixXx 08-08-05, 03:01 PM	At what point did I said I had a fair and unbiased opinion, vato? At what point did I make that claim? You act like I've stated an intention to murder the developers or something. I never argued about your biased opinion. I said your criteria didn't make sense, or at least is non-sensical to me. The "homebrew" feeling of Eberron is incidental, as all settings are homebrews at one point or time. So what if Eberron feels homebrewed? Why does this matter when all settings are pretty much homebrews? Is... this.. clear.. to.. you? (since it seems like you'd prefer this thread to be locked because all parties devolved into a gaggle of name-calling twerps, rather than keep this discussion civil.) If you'd said that you favor the FR material because it appeals to your preferences as far as fantasy material goes, or because Ed's literary treatment of the FR gives the setting more "teeth," then I'd have agreed with you. I know quite a few people that dislike either setting because one setting or another contains too many cliches from elements that they don't particularly care for. Folks hate the FR because they wrongly assume that it is a parrot world for Middle Earth, and folks hate Eberron because they wrongly assume that Eberron aspires to be the D&D version of a Final Fantasy world, rather than aspire to be a truly unique setting. Those are more specific criteria that I can either agree or disagree with.
SilverWolf 08-08-05, 03:47 PM	First I would like to say thanks to everyone who has replied, your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Also I want to say a few things about the homebrew setting that I am creating, so you might have a better understanding of what I am looking for. The two main issues I have seen talked about are magic, and deities. In my setting there ARE deities. The world I am creating is stuck in between planes. An ancient race from long ago has set up a network of portals that link the plane with other planes. In a way, this makes it a very dangerous place to live. Many times in history there have been attempted invasions, and only through the work of benevolent deities have they survived. this means that many deities from all over are worshipped by various people from this realm. However, the deities are also mortal. without their worshippers, they would die. The "true" god-like beings of the universe, who have been there from the beginning, do not trouble themselves with such things. There are a few of them that do realize that the war on this plane could directly affect the universe at a who and have done small things to try to change the eventual outcome. they do not have as much direct power as the deites, for they do not work through worshippers, but they do overall have a bigger role in the greater plan of things. They can grant a VERY select few unbelievable power, making them (in essence) a deity. However, once this person recies these powers, whether or not they remain loyal is questionable. this is all very confusing and I'm sorry if you are confused. Magic is well known and used in small amounts, but magical people of high rank and power are rare. The highest arcane magic users make up half of the Council of Elders who help rule the kingdom. The other half is made up of divine magic users. Clerics are rarely seen, for another class has almost comepletely replaced it. I am currently working on this class. The main difference between it and a cleric is that a clerics powers are usually granted by a deity, while this new classes power is based on personal faith of the individual. they have access to both the clerics spell list, and a druids, depending on what their personal faith is based on. They still worship deities, but it does not rule their magic. As for how common magic is in this world, (which currently still has no name,) it depends on the type. Arcane magic still plays a big role, but has died over the years. It is now known as the "ancient, forgotten art," found in tombs and ruins, and practiced by less people then even 200 years ago. Divine magic is more common then arcane, since more people use faith for strength because of the frequent wars with evil outsider. Many people know a small amount of divine spells to help them in their everyday lives, because again, it is their personal faith. It can be stronger than worship based faith, but for others a solid religious belief is what they need, and they gain more strength from that. You won't find many adventuring divine magic users, but they are still there. No matter how much magic there is on this world, it is not as much as you would expect. Magic is dying from tradition, and sinking into dusty textbooks. unfortunately, it is going to be needed more than ever if they wish to survive. Much of this makes no sense, but I typed this in the morning after a long night of DnD with my friends so sorry.
Charles Phipps 08-08-05, 04:02 PM	That's tough I say remove artificers, places like Sharn, and go with Eberron.
SilverWolf 08-08-05, 04:05 PM	Also, I have noticed that some argument have broken over this topic. Do not argue over things that ultimately are ruled by opinion. no matter what the campaign setting is to you, it will be different to someone else. And even if it was proven that a certain campaign setting is a certain way, they are not meant to be played straight from the book, word for word. the books are suggestions, it is the DM and the players who ultimately decide how the game is played. this WAS a list of critiques of the SETTINGS, it has become a list of critiques of other peoples critiques. also, I apologize for not providing more info on the homebrew i am making, as that would might also change opinion about which is better for this particular situation. no matter which one i go with, it will be because it is better for this paricular setting, not because it is proven better than the other capaign setting as a whole. don't argue about DnD, it was not created to cause argument, but for our enjoyment. Again thank you for your opinions, and sorry for not giving you enough information to truly make an educated descision.
SilverWolf 08-08-05, 04:07 PM	That's tough I say remove artificers, places like Sharn, and go with Eberron. I think because I want some darker aspects to my homebrew, Eberron might be a good idea.
Alac Luin 08-08-05, 07:07 PM	Silverwolf- In some ways, it sounds like neither CS will help much. Many of the new rules and things in Eberron require a wide availability of arcane magic. (the airships, warforged, artificer, etc). Of course, this may be debatable. :P To complicate matters, have you seen the Mystic base class from Dragonlance? Mystic is to cleric as sorcerer is to wizard. But I'm not suggesting buying that book for one class, but looking at it may give an idea on the class you are building. I think I'm being of no help :D
warlockco 08-08-05, 10:09 PM	Silverwolf- In some ways, it sounds like neither CS will help much. Many of the new rules and things in Eberron require a wide availability of arcane magic. (the airships, warforged, artificer, etc). Of course, this may be debatable. :P To complicate matters, have you seen the Mystic base class from Dragonlance? Mystic is to cleric as sorcerer is to wizard. But I'm not suggesting buying that book for one class, but looking at it may give an idea on the class you are building. I think I'm being of no help :D Favored Soul in Complete Divine is kinda but not quite simliar to the Mystic also. Spontaneous Divine Casters.
warlockco 08-08-05, 10:11 PM	Read my whole post, Bunky. At what point did I said I had a fair and unbiased opinion, vato? What's with the name calling?
Crust 08-08-05, 11:17 PM	I would only say that the Realms is "high magic" when comparing it to other campaign settings like Dragonlance and Ravenloft. I don't know anything about Eberron aside from what I catch on message boards, but I would say that the Realms is significantly higher in magic diversity and flavor than in either Dragonlance or Ravenloft. Of course, if we're talking about a novel experience, you might see extremely high levels of magic in Realms books like Elminster in Hell, Silverfall, the Last Mythal series, the Councilors and Kings trilogy, and many others. On the other hand, in books like the Empires trilogy, many of Salvatore's novels, the Scions of Arrabar trilogy, the Stormweather novels, and many others, you'd see a lower level of magic being tossed about. For me, Raistlin at his peak could never scratch Realms characters like The Simbul, Larloch, Elminster, or Halastar. Those are the comparisons I make concerning levels of magic in a setting.
GothicDan 08-09-05, 12:42 AM	I think he could have competed with all on that list but Larloch.
Darrian 08-09-05, 12:56 AM	Didn't Krynn have a level 20 cap on all of the PC's? BTW, Raistlin was so much more interesting than any wizard in FR. He is one of my great inspirations for playing wizards, he and Elric. Darrian
warlockco 08-09-05, 01:03 AM	Didn't Krynn have a level 20 cap on all of the PC's? BTW, Raistlin was so much more interesting than any wizard in FR. He is one of my great inspirations for playing wizards, he and Elric. Darrian Not sure if they kept it with 3E, but I recall back in 1E and 2E, once you reached 20th level (with a few exceptions) the gods sent you to a different plane for all intents and purposes.
DarkWarriorKarg 08-09-05, 10:12 AM	Not sure if they kept it with 3E, but I recall back in 1E and 2E, once you reached 20th level (with a few exceptions) the gods sent you to a different plane for all intents and purposes. Yup. With highly interventionist dieties that whacked you upside the head regularly. Especially if you were a wizard (Only neutral wizards can cast fireball?)
SilverWolf 08-09-05, 01:18 PM	Why is it that no matter what you start a thread for, people will come and start talking about other things, not at all related to the topic the thread was made for? I find this very annoying! How about we talk about that? Is it off topic enough for you? I certainly don't go to a thread and just start posting things that don't follow what is being discussed. Is there anyone else who agrees with me? I'm sorry, but this really annoys me and I see it all the time. It is not that I am mad about this particular situation, I have already decided to continue creating my campaign setting without the aid of either of the two books. I am mad because perhaps these same people do it to other people as well, and have a general disrespect towards thread titles in general and simply do not want to read them.
Darrian 08-09-05, 01:50 PM	Silverwolf, I do not understand what you are writing about. What are you trying to say? Darrian (confused)
GothicDan 08-09-05, 01:56 PM	The point is that not all people have linear thought patterns - or at least, linear in respect to your own. Some people may consider tangents to be completely off topic, while others might consider them utterly topical. And sometimes people bringing up things that you didn't even think about in regards to a given topic can end up being a blessing in the end. All of my best professors have been the kind that go off on tangents. It shows a true knowledge and passion for their subject.
Charles Phipps 08-09-05, 05:14 PM	Here's the message I sent to my player's e-mail about Eberron and what it is. And also "Topics" aren't solely related to the original post but expand as other people post their questions here. It's part of what makes message board's great. A little look at my take on Eberron... "Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand. I don't know but I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me." -Firefly Airships dueling with biplanes firing magical missles, Cowboys in the Talenta Plains, Detectives in Sharn, Blastswords and djinn powered motorhorses, Mad Scientists building giant disintegrator rays at the capital, Superheroes from their floating fortress over Breeland, Torch lit secret societies of businessmen and nobility. Whip wielding arcaeologists in Xen'drick. Eberron is the campaign world where magical studies have been taken to their natural conclusion over the past couple of hundred years to form a whole new type of society. Instead of Tolkien and Howard, Eberron is a gameworld based around the ideals of modern sensibilities of heroics to a large extent or at least the Medievalism is combined with it. The Orc down the street runs a Bakery rather than existing for rapine and murder, the magicians have used their money to build themselves ruthless corporations that stretch across the nations, and good/evil depends greatly on who stands to benefit. Where you fit in... The Magipunk world of Eberron is currently recovering from a devastating 100 year conflict that makes the Blood War look like a cakewalk. The Politics are neck deep in this world and everyone has an agenda. Unlike normal worlds after a devastating war, the world of Eberron must also cope with the plots of manipulative dragons and demon princes that both have arcane agendas that are incomprehensible to a normal human being. The PCs are wildcards though. Eberron de-emphasizes PC classes and the vast majority of people do not have either their training or potential to skill (level up) to fight against the various forces of darkness. While high level individuals do exist with massive magical and mystical might, the politics and the frightening nature of Eberron's dimensional 'truths'/sorcery have driven the majority either insane or made them so paranoid that they are likely to do more harm than good. This doesn't even count the out and out evil ones. You've got a date with destiny and if you don't stop the Apocolypse Stone or other predicted disaster...no one will. What the Hell is that? Remember in Star Was where Luke Skywalker walked into the Cantina? How he saw all the weird and whacky aliens? This is the nature of Eberron's various races. From the "We don't serve their kind" atmosphere to the warforged/droids to the fact that you're not likely to bat much of an eyelash at the Airship Pilot Half elf having a Troll Bodyguard named Chewy. That doesn't mean there aren't monsters in Eberron though. Unlike in many campaigns, demons and the forces of other dimensional badness are EVIL and not only evil with a capital E but alien and demented. They will twist your flesh and your body and if you're lucky then they'll only leave you completely insane afterwards. The psychosis and evil potential of human beings often trumps anything that a orc could come up with and the elves are hardly the noble race that they were in other settings. Many of them worship the undead and others want to start their own Mongol conquests. The Dwarves are more interested in their money than gold. Halflings, Halflings ride dinosaurs in these games and are likely to skin you as they are to look at you. Abandon all assumptions here. How do we adventure? If you run Keep on the Borderlands, prepare to be hanged for war crimes after you butcher the Goblin cubs. Adventurers aren't the Rat Catchers and mass murderers that they are in other games. Players might be secret agents working for her Majesty the Queen who sip cocktails before bedding the Princess of Breeland or the super assassin from Reidra, they might be the automated knights of the Silver Flame that seek their own humanity through divine transcendence, or they might be nobles who prowl the streets after night as masked vigilantes. They are part of society and rarely just rag tag bands of wandering mercenaries. Even then, they'res powerful guilds and local law enforcement to contend to. In Conclusion Eberron is a whole paradigm for gaming.
SilverWolf 08-09-05, 11:06 PM	I did not mean half of what I said earlier, I'm not feeling well at all. A small irritation was inflated into anger because of my lack of energy. Also, I was mad at my cousin because of a debate we had last night over DM ethics. He thinks that the DM should be in total control, and anything he does, fair or not, should be taken without complaint. Although I understand he thinks differently than I, he would not understand that that is not how we do things in our group. He even thought that I should create a number of characters for the players to choose from, but not give them the freedom of creating it themselves. It is not a totally bad idea, except he wanted me to make them with and ECL of 4 or 5, rather than 1 or 2, and balance it by putting them up against higher CR monsters. He said "bigger is better." I don't like doing this because most of the players, including me if my other friend DMs, don't like to have high ECL PCs. We like to work our way up. He said if they didn't like it, too bad. But the point is that if I'm the DM, I am not going to do that anyway, since I don't like starting players with ECLs higher than 3. Anyone have any thoughts? Hey look, I'm off topic.... sorry for getting angry for the wrong reason, and being a hypocrite. I formally apologize to all of you. *bows apologetically* But seriously! What do any of you think?
GothicDan 08-09-05, 11:22 PM	Personally, I totally understand bad days. While I try very hard to never express my personal hardships in a negative fashion, I understand that sometimes such endeavors fail. That being said, I am of the opinion (usually of older-school gamers..) that DMs should have a lot of power. However, I would not be so totalitarian as the DM mentioned. I am not a fan of prefabricated characters. However, I am very much the type of DM to say, "There are no sorcerers/ur-priests/clerics/elans/raptorials/etc. in my world. No exceptions. And, no, there are certainly no Drow, and Drow cannot use High Magic." But, even then, I sometimes do make exceptions. ;) But only for players who are exceptionally creative, talented, and mature.
Alac Luin 08-09-05, 11:31 PM	(there were some off topic posts, put hey....) My last couple of games I've started out at level 1. Trditionally, I like to start at 3rd level, for hit point/ low level survivability reasons. I want the PCs to survive the 1st adventure, the higher level allows that in that in they can stand takeing more then one hit. :) If you want to start a low levels, do it. If you think your players want that, all the more reason to do it. If they enjoy the games you run, they will get the chance to have the "bigger and better" action at higher levels, If the players don't like it you can be very liberal with XP advanceing them faster. It's easier to boost a charicter's level then it is to lower them. Should HE start off at higher levels? Thats his choice. (the above is just my opinion)
SilverWolf 08-09-05, 11:39 PM	If he wants to play a ECL 5, anamorphic chachalot whale barbarian, I won't stop him (unless such characters are not allowed in my campaign setting) but I surely won't force EVERYONE to play one. He will just have to deal with leveling slower. personally, I don't like ECL 1 PCs, they die too easily and are a pain to level, I agree that 3 is a good starting level. And I do have limits on classes and races sometimes.
Alac Luin 08-09-05, 11:49 PM	As long as he is never struck with level drain, he will always be a "little" more powerful then the rest of the party, see if the other players are ok, as to not course resentment. The ECL will... 1 require more experience to level up 2 gain less experience points per encounter. So, at higher levels, the starting ECL 5 will end up maybe 1 level higher then the others, and at some points actually be of the same level. But, he will always have a few more XP then the rest. Have you been to the “Whats a DM to do?” in the general boards yet? Thats a great place to ask this kind of stuff.
Arilou_skiff 08-10-05, 01:05 PM	Personally I think it depends on what you want. FR (to me) is the "Generic" fantasy World. It has no "particular" flavour, but for normal Sword and Sorcery it's simply the best. Other settings offer variations (I might say that Ebberon's variant isn't that unique, simply one in a line of (some successful, some not) permutations of the standard fantasy mould) We have Dark Sun's postapocolyptic fantasy, Ravenloft's Gothic Horror, Spelljammer's pulp SF, etc. etc. (and of course Planescape's... undefinable) Essentially, while I love those other settings, FR/Greyhawk (the "standard" settings) are kind of a baseline: Without them the permutations wouldn't be half as fun as there would be nothing to compare it against. And as said, in the FR you will never run out of challenges (a problem with Ravenloft was that once your characters reached 12-15th level the setting became essentially unplayable) Just like Planescape there was always someone more powerful than you.
GothicDan 08-10-05, 01:10 PM	Just like Planescape there was always someone more powerful than you. And I abso-freaking-lutely loved this about the setting. No matter how high in level you got, you always had to watch out. You couldn't be the "we must kill things bigger and bigger!" type without the risk of getting stomped by some Abyssal Lord/God/Lady of Pain. Planescape so does not fit in the paradigm that 3E designers seem to have fostered for their game. I am glad that they leave it (mostly) alone.
Moria 08-11-05, 08:41 PM	Just like Planescape there was always someone more powerful than you. Any setting is able to do that (well, perhaps Dragonlace don't). In Eberron, you have massive organizations (The Dreaming Dark, the Lords of Dust, etc), trying to take over. The epic is built on in Eberron.
Spirithawkfellow 08-12-05, 02:26 AM	I believe you choose both, take what you can from both to make your Campaign world, in the end, it is your player that will be discovering the world that you place before you. The ideas of both can suit your needs. I've run Both, Eberron, and the Realms, and I can say I like both. The Realms gives you sense of epic fantasy with great heroes and villain lost lands and epic treasure, they kind of Remind me of DC comics and Eberron being Marvel, in a way. One has iconic character and ideas, while the other has bold new heroes and tales. But that besides the point, I think to really give your campaign it own flavor, look into mythology, and old tales do some research, that will give your game a distinct flavor. Oh the one myth I say is bogus is that the Realms is generic, which I for one don't agree with, everytime I play it is as uniqe as the world of conan, middle earth, or greyhawk. So I think check out both, but don't limit yourself or check out robort jordan wheel of time, that could help you out... Excelesior Spirit
GothicDan 08-12-05, 07:44 AM	Any setting is able to do that (well, perhaps Dragonlace don't). In Eberron, you have massive organizations (The Dreaming Dark, the Lords of Dust, etc), trying to take over. The epic is built on in Eberron. But none did it so well as Planescape. It was an integral, built-in theme of the settin gfrom the get-go, without having to add or modify any frills.
SilverWolf 08-12-05, 04:07 PM	I have finally decided to not use either of the caimpaign settings, instead creating everything from scratch. I know this will take the longest, but I don't really care. I have plenty of other source-books that have material I can incorporate into my world. heres a list: Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Planar Handbook, Savage Species, Expanded Psionic Handbook and Oriental Adventures. I already am working on 3 classes and my friends are all creating their own race that I am going to put into the setting as well. So far, I have about 15 pages typed on my computer, plus a separate file that gives a history overview in the form of a story. One of the classes I was working on yesterday is a paladin variant. Paladins use spells from the good cleric spell-list, but this new class will use spells from the evil cleric spell-list as well. It may not make sense, but then Cure Critical Wounds is a Blackguard spell... Anyway that is what I ave decided. Thanks to all who answered my call!
Spirithawkfellow 08-13-05, 09:47 PM	good luck on that silverwolf i wish you luck, if you need a hand, or just some one to talk to about designing your world, let me know love to help. I sent you a invite to my group you can reach me there if you want... Until then take care...
Zedharutiathais 08-14-05, 03:40 PM	Apples rule and oranges stink, end of argument! But if you're looking for a fruit salad, a little of both in the mix isn't a bad thing. One setting isn't "better" than another. They're two -very- different campaigns. Either one of them has the potential for great roleplaying. Some people like the new stuff, some people like the old stuff. The people who still use Myrkul and Bhaal are probably never going to see any good in Eberron. Likewise, Eberron is too new for certain people to hate it as much as they do the realms; FR has years and years of stuff to nitpick while Eberron is the relative new kid in town. If you can only get one book, you might get the FR book. You might hate half the stuff in the setting, but you'll still have more stuff that you don't hate than Eberron has all together. OR, you might get the Eberron book. While I feel that 3ed. FR is FAR superior to any previous editions, there is still a great abundance of free old FR material on the web to suppliment your campaign. I'm personally biased towards the realms. Some people say it's all there for you and you don't have to think or reason at all, you just use it. Those people are not very creative, if you ask me. Of course, since I already have a campaign going set in the realms, I didn't bother to purchase the Eberron book (sorry, WoTC). That's not to say Eberron is -bad-, though. For your homebrew campaign you should just use what you want to use and not use what you don't want to use. Of course, I do that with my FR campaign anyway, but some people are afraid to go against cannon.
Bullet-proof Monk 08-16-05, 12:59 AM	Some people say it's all there for you and you don't have to think or reason at all, you just use it. Some people say this about the current rules system that fuels BOTH settings at present.
jim9311 08-16-05, 01:55 AM	Greyhawk Rules :D