Post/Author/DateTime	Post
warrior-poet 03-16-07, 11:18 AM	I just happened on the (a?) FR Wiki right HERE (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page) Seems interesting, has anyone else taken a peek at it? Any thoughts? They seem to provide some good info---I am just hoping that they aren't going to get nailed on copyright/license issues by WoTC.
Old Sage 03-16-07, 08:05 PM	I'm not getting into this again.
warrior-poet 03-16-07, 08:07 PM	Care to give a brief summary? Just curious.
Stigger 03-16-07, 08:31 PM	In a nutshell there's a lot of mistrust from those who are sages of Realmslore for the project given (from what I understand, no firsthand knowledge myself) the (allegedly) lax security on the editing features and fact checking of sources and references, if any are given, which I understand is not a requirement. I don't know one way or another what is true or not, given that I hardly ever use Wiki for much of anything, but that's what I understand the beef to be.
warrior-poet 03-16-07, 08:32 PM	Gotcha. Too bad. I generally like the Wiki interface.
Karsus the Mad 03-16-07, 08:47 PM	For hards facts, nothing beats the traditional method: read a good tome:)
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 02:13 PM	I don't know one way or another what is true or not, given that I hardly ever use Wiki for much of anything, but that's what I understand the beef to be. -Ah, that's a shame. You'd be surprised what kinds of interesting things you can find on Wikipedia. For instance, I learned just the other day that Cryptomnesia is the phenominon where you believe that a memory that has already been filed into your brain is an original idea. See, here's something interesting... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork Chops) -But anyway, thus far, the FR Wiki is laughable, actually. I'll just use the extremely short entry on my so-called Folly. It has Grammar Problems: He inadvertantly caused all magic to cease to function, sending the flying enclaves of Netheril (which relied on magic to stay in the air) crashing to the ground. Except for four - Anauria, Asram, Hlondeth, whom were saved by the reincarnated goddess Mystra, and Thultanthar, which was pulled into the Plane of Shadow to strengthen the twelve princes spell power. Spelling Errors: Karsus failed to realise that Mystryl was the only being with the experience to fix the damage that the war between the Netherese and the Phaerimm was causing to the Weave. Blatently Incorrect Information: ...and Thultanthar, which was pulled into the Plane of Shadow to strengthen the twelve princes spell power. -Yeah, so, that's that...
Stigger 03-19-07, 02:51 PM	Interesting link... I'd recommend taking a look at Mental Floss if you want a monthly fix of strange, fascinating, and vaguely goofy information. Interesting magazine really.
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 04:30 PM	Interesting link... I'd recommend taking a look at Mental Floss if you want a monthly fix of strange, fascinating, and vaguely goofy information. Interesting magazine really. -Eh, I looked at it's Wikipedia article (See, another thing it's good for), and it doesn't look too thrilling. Looks like nothing more than a bunch of self-proclaimed "Smart Guys" (Though Ken Jennings from Jeopardy is indeed quite smart) nitpicking through the dictionary, textbooks and the encyclopedia. Theoretically, I could do the same... -...Yes, we should all get together and publish our own magazines. We'll make millions...:plotting:
Karsus the Mad 03-19-07, 06:02 PM	-...Yes, we should all get together and publish our own magazines. We'll make millions... I volintier four spellchekcing an grammamatical corekting.
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 11:05 PM	-Ladies, this aspect has the brains, and the looks. :)
Karsus the Mad 03-20-07, 12:18 AM	-Ladies, this aspect has the brains, and the looks. :) :uh-huh:....sure you do:twitch: who was it that did all the research and development of all the bizzare, tho' utterly useless, yet still cool and drooled over by mages to this day advancements in magic? And...you forget...I've seen you without the hood:gah: The divine gorging left you making Joseph Merrick look appealing.
Stigger 03-20-07, 12:40 AM	Nah, not at all like that. More like trivia/weird facts/reality-checks than any sort of nitpicking. Quite a bit of fun.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-20-07, 01:13 AM	I'm not touching the FR wiki, because it seems that mentions of the planes are routinely purged of anything not strictly towing the 3e line. I'm not one for putting forth effort only to have it deleted.
Eladrinstar 03-20-07, 01:56 AM	The FR Wiki! 'Tis a scar on the face of the internet, I'm afraid. Much of the information seems to be made up. My real question is this...Why with FR being such a wonderful setting has no one made a decent encyclopedia of it. If Harry Potter or Inheritance Trilogy(shudder) can do it so can we. I for one would gladly sign up for it, as long as all contributors and moderators had to doublecheck, no triplecheck the information being put in.
Lord Karsus 03-20-07, 09:08 AM	:uh-huh:....sure you do:twitch: who was it that did all the research and development of all the bizzare, tho' utterly useless, yet still cool and drooled over by mages to this day advancements in magic? And...you forget...I've seen you without the hood:gah: The divine gorging left you making Joseph Merrick look appealing. -Sure, sure, whatever you say. (To everyone else, don't listen to that aspect. Those words are just the ravings of a madman...) My real question is this...Why with FR being such a wonderful setting has no one made a decent encyclopedia of it. -They're called Sourcebooks. ;) -Seriously though, there are plenty of places with plenty of information, but they're all scattered.
warrior-poet 03-20-07, 09:59 AM	Would be nice to have a single source (on web or maybe cd-rom) that was completely cross-referenced and linked.
Zerak-Tul 03-20-07, 12:34 PM	-But anyway, thus far, the FR Wiki is laughable, actually. Well, try considering there's about 7 people contributing, if not less. As for nitpicks like grammar and typos, consider that not everyone speaks english as their first language - and here comes the beauty of a wiki - see something amiss? Hit edit and fix it. Blatently Incorrect Information: ...and Thultanthar, which was pulled into the Plane of Shadow to strengthen the twelve princes spell power. Well, if you read the Realms of Shadow anthology, this is the reasoning presented for why Tultanthar was pulled into the demiplane of shadow. Though, Wizards of the Coast themselves present different reasons for how Shade Enclave evaded destruction. (Some sources say Shade was already in the plane of shadow, others say Shade only fled there during the collapse). *shrugs* I'm not touching the FR wiki, because it seems that mentions of the planes are routinely purged of anything not strictly towing the 3e line. I'm not one for putting forth effort only to have it deleted. Err, most of the planar articles are still very short, if they exist at all, so the notion that information is being deleted seems somewhat odd to me. And after looking through the deletion log I see no examples of such information having been deleted. The FR Wiki! 'Tis a scar on the face of the internet, I'm afraid. Much of the information seems to be made up Care to direct me to a few pages? :S
Lord Karsus 03-20-07, 01:29 PM	Well, try considering there's about 7 people contributing, if not less. -Elves of Faerūn has about the same number of people contributing, and, well, I'll let results speak. Well, if you read the Realms of Shadow anthology, this is the reasoning presented for why Tultanthar was pulled into the demiplane of shadow. Though, Wizards of the Coast themselves present different reasons for how Shade Enclave evaded destruction. (Some sources say Shade was already in the plane of shadow, others say Shade only fled there during the collapse). *shrugs* -Shade was never "pulled" into the Plane of Shadow. The act was a conscious one, on part of Lord Shadow. Being "pulled" constitutes something "out of your hands", or "forced".
warrior-poet 03-20-07, 04:06 PM	Oookaaayyyy... Seems I touched a nerve with this topic... I do think Wiki is in general a good interface/opportunity/community builder---but there are some drawbacks too (which have already been touched on---so I don't think I need to elaborate). Maybe there is an underlying tension between established, unofficially ranked FR sages and Wiki, anarchic newcomers?
Occam 03-20-07, 05:59 PM	Spelling Errors: ... Blatently Incorrect Information: Sorry, but... that's pretty funny. ;)
Stigger 03-21-07, 12:49 AM	Don't think it has so much to do with anarchic newcomers so much as a dislike of the potential contamination of information. That editing function cuts both ways there... which is I suspect the whole problem. If the sages are going to bother writing the articles, check and recheck their sources, and properly attribute and footnote things, they don't want someone coming along and editing it, for whatever reason, and potentially distorting something they've put their time and effort into. At least that was the impression I was always left with about it.
Karsus the Mad 03-21-07, 01:23 AM	Don't think it has so much to do with anarchic newcomers so much as a dislike of the potential contamination of information. That editing function cuts both ways there... which is I suspect the whole problem. If the sages are going to bother writing the articles, check and recheck their sources, and properly attribute and footnote things, they don't want someone coming along and editing it, for whatever reason, and potentially distorting something they've put their time and effort into. At least that was the impression I was always left with about it. Ditto. IF there was some form of security, people might consider it a more worthwhile project. Another downside is that some of the information simply hasn't been checked (then again, it's as accurate as most posts on any forum:P). Overall, it's the lack the security. Heck, even LK put himself and I under the Karsus listing....which was subseqently removed, added, removed, etc, etc.
Lord Karsus 03-21-07, 09:14 AM	Heck, even LK put himself and I under the Karsus listing....which was subseqently removed, added, removed, etc, etc. -Well, we are canon, after all. -I didn't do it the first time, but when I saw that it was gone, I put it back. That wasn't on the FR Wikipedia thingy, but was on the general Wikipedia entry for 'Karsus'.
Zerak-Tul 03-21-07, 01:20 PM	Ditto. IF there was some form of security, people might consider it a more worthwhile project. Another downside is that some of the information simply hasn't been checked (then again, it's as accurate as most posts on any forum:P). Overall, it's the lack the security. Heck, even LK put himself and I under the Karsus listing....which was subseqently removed, added, removed, etc, etc. Of course there's the danger that people can add nonsense - but as you can see from the history of the Karsus page (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/index.php?title=Karsus&action=history) the false information was changed back in a matter of a couple of hours in both instances. Furthermore, people who repeatedly add false information can (and have had) their IP adresses banned from editing, problem solved. Then again, complaining about misinformation, when you've intentionally added your own seems pretty funny to me. Oh the irony :) Elves of Faerūn has about the same number of people contributing, and, well, I'll let results speak. Haven't heard of this page, could you provide a link, please? -Shade was never "pulled" into the Plane of Shadow. The act was a conscious one, on part of Lord Shadow. Being "pulled" constitutes something "out of your hands", or "forced". You quote "and Thultanthar, which was pulled into the Plane of Shadow to strengthen the twelve princes spell power" Lord Shadow pulled Shade into the plane of shadow.. I think pulled is a perfectly valid choice of word. But I might be wrong, again english is not my first language, but afair you can pull things, and be perfectly concious of the act.. In any case, the project is still small, and I only happended across this discussion by chance while looking for information on a novel. We have three admins who take care of any problems, checking the edits of unregistered/new editors etc. So I don't really see any major security problem - most vandalism is removed in a couple of hours. Everyone is of course intitled to their own opinion, and I just wanted to clarify what I saw as very hard judgement of peoples work. This board obviously have some Realms-savvy people (duhh) and I didn't mean to **** anyone off by coming along here acting all know-it-all. The wiki has flaws I'm sure, never said it didn't, but with more contributors it might get better. But we're not getting anyone interested from here if the consensus becomes that the project is a scar on the face of the internet" Zerak
Lord Karsus 03-21-07, 02:22 PM	Then again, complaining about misinformation, when you've intentionally added your own seems pretty funny to me. Oh the irony :) -Like I said, we are canon. ;) Haven't heard of this page, could you provide a link, please? -The link is in my signature. You quote "and Thultanthar, which was pulled into the Plane of Shadow to strengthen the twelve princes spell power" Lord Shadow pulled Shade into the plane of shadow.. I think pulled is a perfectly valid choice of word. But I might be wrong, again english is not my first language, but afair you can pull things, and be perfectly concious of the act.. -No, Lord Shadow Plane Shifted, Teleported , or Shunted the city into the Plane of Shadow. Like I said, being pulled conotates an outside force acting upon the city, which wasn't the case. And, again, he didn't Plane Shift the city to the Plane of Shadow to increase his power, or those of the Princes of Shade, if they even actually existed at the time, which they may or may not have. He sent the city into the Plane of Shadow as a massive experiment, where the people would either wind up there, or die, as magic was in the midst of failing.
Karsus the Mad 03-21-07, 02:33 PM	Of course there's the danger that people can add nonsense - but as you can see from the history of the Karsus page (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/ind...action=history) the false information was changed back in a matter of a couple of hours in both instances. Furthermore, people who repeatedly add false information can (and have had) their IP adresses banned from editing, problem solved. Hey, no need to get defensive. I think the project has potential. I simply acknowledge the truth that it's not a good source for *facts*. I feel the exact same way about anything that's not published in a sourcebook or directly from Ed Greenwood, whether it be the wiki, Candlekeep, here, any other forum, or an authors personal musings. Read my first post at the way, way top. Then again, complaining about misinformation, when you've intentionally added your own seems pretty funny to me. Oh the irony Hey, don't point at me. I didn't do it. That was LK. I had nothing to do with it, nor did I have any knowledge until he informed me:) Tho' I still think it was pretty funny...
Old Sage 03-21-07, 07:46 PM	KtM, you and I have been over this before, however... Suggesting that a source for FR lore like the Wiki should be considered the same as Ed's comments at Candlekeep -- specifically, unpublished sources -- isn't an entirely valid consideration. Ed's words at Candlekeep are considered canon, first and foremost. He's said this many times. They are considered canon always, until either a game designer or WotC itself suggest possible changes or modifications to his existing Realmslore [for future inclusion in a published source] as it has been posted at Candlekeep. I'll note further that a selection of Ed's comments made at Candlekeep have passed into published Realmslore through 3e FR sourcebooks -- Power of Faerūn being one example -- further supporting the canonicity of his Candlekeep replies. The FR Wiki cannot be considered in a similar way while the possibility for alteration, by just about anyone on the web, is almost always a certified likelihood.
Karsus the Mad 03-21-07, 09:17 PM	Suggesting that a source for FR lore like the Wiki should be considered the same as Ed's comments at Candlekeep -- specifically, unpublished sources -- isn't an entirely valid consideration. ? When did I say that? I believe I said the exact opposite actually. Hey, no need to get defensive. I think the project has potential. I simply acknowledge the truth that it's not a good source for *facts*. I feel the exact same way about anything that's not published in a sourcebook or directly from Ed Greenwood, whether it be the wiki, Candlekeep, here, any other forum, or an authors personal musings. Read my first post at the way, way top. Ed's words at Candlekeep are considered canon, first and foremost. Never said they weren't, reread my post. I think you misunderstood:) I referenced sourcebooks and Ed as sources of fact, while discluding anything outside of those two sources. The FR Wiki cannot be considered in a similar way while the possibility for alteration, by just about anyone on the web, is almost always a certified likelihood. And I don't consider it as such, which I stated rather bluntly:)
warrior-poet 03-21-07, 09:20 PM	Lord Karsus---you aren't showing a signature. Old Sage---that may well be true---but maybe Candlekeep could consider restructuring its website to one that is considerably more integrated/cross-referenced (like Wiki). (Assuming by Candlekeep you mean http://www.candlekeep.com/) I have found the Wiki interface to be much more intuitive...
Karsus the Mad 03-21-07, 09:21 PM	LK's sig shows in his first post, #7.
Old Sage 03-21-07, 09:46 PM	It wouldn't be as practical to restructure Candlekeep in a way similar to that of the FR Wiki. Candlekeep acts, mostly, as a repository of compiled Realmslore stored in various formats -- HTML, PDF, .doc, .xls, etc. The current structure of Candlekeep works well at providing scribes with easy access to the stored Realmslore. Whether it's compiled reply files, fan-based compositions, uploaded Realms reference pages in HTML format, or links to alternate sites... most items of lore are stored under conveniently recognised subsections on the site itself.
Wenin 03-22-07, 01:09 AM	I'm one of the recent visitors and minor contributors to the Wiki. After having spent time observing the conduct of the admin, and the main contributors, I find many of the negative points made in this thread to be false. The Wiki doesn't hold itself up as being the bastion of canon, as it is a WIKI. The admins and contributors do monitor the pages, and remove non-canon material when they detect it. The wiki is what we as FR fans make of it. While it isn't the end all be all source of *facts* it certainly points you in a good direction. I find the referencing part of wiki to be rather difficult, but it is crucial to provide good content. Overall, I feel that the content in the FR Wiki is far more reliable than the content you find in the original Wikipedia website..... as all of the content is a regurgitation of published works. No one can make claims that they have a wealth of knowledge about the FR world, without being called upon it within a day of their first contribution.... unlike Wikipedia, where you have people claiming to be professors. =)
Stigger 03-22-07, 02:42 AM	Personally, I have a hard time navigating Candlekeep's interface a lot of times... not sure why, but the color scheme makes it tremendously hard for me to resolve anything there. Kinda weird actually.
Wenin 03-22-07, 08:03 AM	I love candlekeep, but have one complaint. If the search feature finds your target words within one of the huge threads, it doesn't bring you to the page of the data. But then at least their search function works. =) When is this forum going to be fixed? =)
Lord Karsus 03-22-07, 09:21 AM	Lord Karsus---you aren't showing a signature. -Signatures show up on the your first post, per page. So, my first post on the first page should have my signature, and, this one should as well.
Karsus the Mad 03-22-07, 11:30 AM	---->? (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lantan)<----- I started fixing, but gave up...I feel dirty now:( Lantan, baby, what'd they do to you?
Wenin 03-22-07, 11:53 AM	There is A LOT of content on the Forgotten Realms. It takes a lot of time for people to be doing it with their free time. It's natural to give up. =)
Lord Karsus 03-22-07, 05:51 PM	---->? (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lantan)<----- I started fixing, but gave up...I feel dirty now:( Lantan, baby, what'd they do to you? -Come, come...I'll prepare some nice, warm bathwater.
Old Sage 03-22-07, 07:49 PM	---->? (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lantan)<----- I started fixing, but gave up...I feel dirty now:( Lantan, baby, what'd they do to you? Don't get me started on Lantan... And with regards to your PM, yes, I did.
Karsus the Mad 03-22-07, 09:09 PM	Don't get me started on Lantan... I was shocked:weep: At least I removed the "Island of Gnomes"....and corrected the location of Orlil (it said southernmost....)...and added human to the races....and added the rest of the cities that show up on the big white map. I hope I spelled them correctly. My copy of the map is old and faded and I can barely make out the lettering.... And with regards to your PM, yes, I did. Cool, tho' I have re-evaluated my opinion.
Old Sage 03-22-07, 10:10 PM	Re-evaluated your opinion... Should I be raising an eyebrow in curiosity? :P ;)
Lord Karsus 03-22-07, 11:25 PM	Re-evaluated your opinion... Should I be raising an eyebrow in curiosity? :P ;) -Well, we Karsi are really quite set in our ways, so, you know...