Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TempistRane 06-28-03, 10:01 PM	now at first i did my games in well a greyhawk steeing and i made my own storys. I have never bot a campain and i dont think i ever will. now i have allways loved FR but never had a sorce book on it fo 3E and i never played 2E so now that i have goten the book DM a 3 munth long campain all the way to epic in Amn i think i like FR a lot more then greyhawk. am i alon on this
Gadodel 06-28-03, 10:05 PM	It is all about style and taste. Greyhawk has a minimalist approach and rarely goes beyond 20th Level. A lot of folks like this as they can to the setting however they see fit-if they wish. Forgotten Realms has an Epic, High Fantasy approach and a lot of characters go beyond 20th Level. A lot of folks like this as a lot of the work is already done and the DM has a lot to work with. The FR Novels also are an allure to the Realms. Personally, I would like to see more attention give to Greyhawk; though I am biased-its the setting I started out with in 1980.
Psionycx 06-29-03, 02:58 AM	For me as well. Ironically, Greyhawk WAS, at one time, power-gamer's paradise, a fact illustrated by the fact that so many famous "name" characters, their attendant spells, magical items and artifacts are originally from the Greyhawk setting. At some point, for reasons largely unknown to me, TSR (who then owned all of this) chose to focus Greyhawk on lower-level play. It is a decision I have never understood. The same extended even into the novel arena. Rather than focus on famous characters that all Greyhawk gamers would have been eager to read about, we got some inane Wolf Nomad and lame storylines. But such is the trend of history. As Gygax became disfavored, Greenwood rose in his place. But truthfully even that was after a brief but powerful surge of Dragonlance mania. The upside to Greyhawk versus Forgotten Realms is that the powerful characters in that world have a tendency to either become gods or move on to other planes. As a result, the setting isn't dominated by anything equivalent to the Chosen of Mystra (or other gods for that matter). Even Mordenkainen & Co prefer to act behind-the-scenes rather than in spectacular cinematic actions designed to upstage the PC's.
Kilamar 06-29-03, 05:04 AM	Originally posted by Psionycx At some point, for reasons largely unknown to me, TSR (who then owned all of this) chose to focus Greyhawk on lower-level play. I do not think that was the case. It is better to assume that FR overtook Greyhawk in the magic armament race. Greyhawk is still a very magical place, but it is "just" standard (according to the guidelines in PHB and DMG) while FR is a ridiculous magical place. Kilamar
Faeryl Zauvirr 06-29-03, 05:11 AM	I own both 3rd version campaign settings but prefer FR. Faerun has so much more history in both game terms and real life, despite it being younger then Greyhawk. Faerun has many more attractive characters, one just has to look at the difference between Iuz and Szass Tam or Dutchy of Urnst and the Dalelands.
Yamo 06-29-03, 08:03 AM	Ironically, Greyhawk WAS, at one time, power-gamer's paradise, a fact illustrated by the fact that so many famous "name" characters, their attendant spells, magical items and artifacts are originally from the Greyhawk setting. This doesn't have anything to do with "power gaming." It's simply because Greyhawk was Gary Gygax's campaign setting, so he snuck references to his world and he and his friends' Greyhawk PCs into the original AD&D rulebooks in the form of spell and artifact names. That's all.
Faraer 06-29-03, 10:03 AM	The two settings draw on much of the same source material, but inflect it differently. What a lot of misunderstandings! Both the Realms and the World of Greyhawk aren't high fantasy but swords and sorcery. I don't know where the "power-gamer's paradise" idea comes from, and the very powerful NPCs in both settings act quite similarly behind the scenes; the "upstage the PCs" thing is another canard with no basis in Realmslore. The Realms isn't "a ridiculous magical place": its magical ecology is lovingly thought out, and if you find it too much that's not something to project onto the setting. The Realms isn't younger than Greyhawk but was created several years earlier.
Rapiersman 06-29-03, 11:38 AM	I must say that I have almost no knowledge on Greyhawk, but I found Oerth (oh, come on, Oerth :embarrass ) just a modified Earth of Middle-Age. Where did it say, "Greyhawk has one corresponding land for each real-world land", or something like that. I want quite a different world form Earth. Forgotten Realms has also this problem, but not as bad as with Oerth.
scimitar 06-29-03, 12:28 PM	I like more FR maybe because I have more resources of this setting
Dr_Draco 06-29-03, 01:04 PM	I like both settings. FR is definitely my favorite, DL being second and GH third. Each setting has it's own good points and bad points, but I think that's a good things. Each of those settings are similar in many areas, but they are ultimately different. :behold: Dr. D
Kilamar 06-29-03, 01:32 PM	Originally posted by Faraer The Realms isn't "a ridiculous magical place": its magical ecology is lovingly thought out, and if you find it too much that's not something to project onto the setting. If that means that your risk encountering an epic Archlich whenever you turn a stone, then you are probably right. Kilamar
Yamo 06-29-03, 02:21 PM	The Realms isn't "a ridiculous magical place": its magical ecology is lovingly thought out... Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. It all depends on whether you see things like the wizards of Thay forming a magical Wal-Mart chain or Aurora starting a teleportation-based Amazon.com as "lovingly thought out" or "just plain goofy." Personally, if the "default" Realms has a magic dial set to 10, I like to crank it down to 7 or 8 for my games. I find that the setting is really rendered much more compelling and playable with the more over-the-top excesses curtailed. Your milage may vary, of course.
Another Gnome 06-29-03, 04:24 PM	I prefer FR, but we had a few fun games in Greyhawk before the 3E FRCS came out. I used the little Greyhawk Gazetteer for reference to Greyhawk stuff, and while it did offer the GH basics (as in, more than I ever knew of GH, and pretty much all I still know of it) in a tidy compact package, it just didn't get me interested enough to keep trying after the release of FRCS. Actually, I was thinking of buying the larger Gazetteer as well but didn't have the money back then, and later I just didn't bother anymore. Though I probably will get a used copy if one shows up in the local gaming store. * * * Now, as for Realms being an epic campaign, there are two sides to that. While there are epic characters all over the Realms, those characters serve a purpose. A dual purpose, actually. Not only do they provide challenges to epic and near-epic characters, they only provide the means to keep epic PCs in check. The latter might not be considered a good thing by every gaming group of course, but at least the fact that there are existing epic characters in the world should be at least something to help getting an epic game started. Similarly, the high-magic environment can have more uses than simply powergaming (though I won't even try to "prove" that to those who disagree). Since there is so much magic in so many forms, and most of it will ultimately help the PCs more than their opponents, it's possible to use just one or two of those special quirks as a boost to a character that otherwise might be less spectacular. Spellcasting Prodigy is an easy way create a 20-Int super-wizard on level 1 even without playing a sun elf, but what it the feat is taken by a half-orc wizard starting with 14 Int? What if instead of more power to an already powerful character, a special feat or spell is used to make a special character? It's easy to blame the Realms for its huge potential for abuse, but at least for me the setting offers an opportunity to be a hero instead of simply playing one. It needs a group of like-minded players to work in practice, sure enough, but I see no harm in trying.
Desies 06-29-03, 05:57 PM	I prefer FR to greyhawk, because it has a rich history and story line made by the high level NPC's. But, you guys keep saying that there are epic level NPC's all over the realms, that simply is not true. Yes there are a lot, but even some of the more famous NPC's (Drizzt for example who is level 16), are less than epic. There are also a slew of NPC's for every level. There are lesser known level 2 NPC's like ARRK the troll or the level 9 King Obould Many-Arrows or the level 12 Elaith Craulnober, if your DM (or you if your the DM) would just read the book he'd find NPC's useable at every level. True there are your Elminster's and your Halaster Blackcloak's but there are many other very well developed NPCs.
Qual-Kehk 06-30-03, 01:46 AM	Originally posted by Psionycx For me as well. Ironically, Greyhawk WAS, at one time, power-gamer's paradise, a fact illustrated by the fact that so many famous "name" characters, their attendant spells, magical items and artifacts are originally from the Greyhawk setting. I really can't see how creating spells or magical items equates to power gaming. Especially considering that they are currently still in use and not disrupting game balance, after all these years and editions of the game.
Droopy 06-30-03, 01:58 AM	I have played both settings for ages now and it is easy to say that both gaming worlds have their own advantages. I have to agree with the fact that within the world of Greyhawk it is unlikely that characters will ever reach beyond 20th level. Iy should take much gaming and perhaps a few years to reach that level anyway. Forgotten Realms on the other hand though makes it is far more common for characters to go beyond 20th level. At the moment under 3rd edition there are far more supplements coming out for Forgotten Realms than there is for Greyhawk. Most of your resources for Greyhawk would either have to be pre 3rd edition or what you find scattered around on the web. One thing Greyhawk does have though is my favorite 3rd edition module the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. :rolleyes:
Psionycx 06-30-03, 10:15 AM	A lot of the original AD&D modules (which were set in the Greyhawk setting) were actually more oriented towards good fantasy (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, Ghost Tower of Inverness, etc.). Also, contrary to a lot of later material that cast Oerth as being fairly insular, planar travel was actually pretty normal for adventurers from Oerth, which was one reason why fewer high-level types were lurking around the Flanaess. PC's increasingly found themselves similarly embroiled in planar adventures as their levels rose. Seemingly innocuous quests (Against the Giants) ended up as Outer Planar adventures (Queen of the Demonweb Pits). Greyhawk also had a ready-made rationale for getting into space travel (just hang around Celestian's worshippers). But later products moved away from some of the truly fantastic stuff that had been in the older materials and focused more on urban intrigues in the City of Greyhawk and things like that. They also skewed the levels lower. Forgotten Realms wasn't originally the power-gaming mess it is today. I remember when Elminster was nothing more than a 26th-level Wizard with some psionic powers thrown in. Aside from him, Khelben and the Simbul, most of the personalities in the original Realms write-up were nowhere near as powerful as they are today. Also, things like the "Seven Sisters" and "Chosen of Mystra" were still undeveloped for the most part. But the Realms had a nice feel and, frankly, more undeveloepd real estate than Greyhawk. Plus they appended some other stuff. Kara Tur was originally intended for Oerth, as Gary Gygax had always visulaized a Cathay-like land far to the west of the Flanaess, but instead it ended up attached to Faerun. Additonally, the FR novels were WAY better.
Herald DwarfHammer 07-01-03, 12:34 AM	I HATE BOTH I LOVE MIDDLE EARTH AND KRYNN BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHH AHAHAHAJHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHHAHAHAHAHAH AH AH HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH WHEW.................................... . BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH. Thank you.
TempistRane 07-02-03, 12:52 AM	come on anyone else got anything on this? i know you do
TempistRane 07-19-03, 07:45 PM	Well time to bring this one back. So come on i know there is more to say about this
Jack in the Green 07-19-03, 09:16 PM	Originally posted by TempistRane Well time to bring this one back. So come on i know there is more to say about this On his worst day Larloch could slap Iuz and take his lunch money.
TempistRane 07-19-03, 09:17 PM	right......... lol
Cog 07-20-03, 01:42 AM	I love FR. There is so much information available about it that it will make any game great.
Nanosecond 07-20-03, 02:39 AM	I prefer the Forgotten Realms to the Greyhawk setting because Greyhawk always seemed too plain vanilla for me, no offense to Mr. Gygax. The Forgotten Realms, on the other hand, has personality. The cultures stand out; the Silver Marches and the Dales have a very different and distinct feel to them. The nations of Toril have special traits that distinguish them from the others. I've always felt like the cultures on Oerth and even Krynn were a bit too homogenized. Mystara was the only other world that had different cultures. Maybe it was the group that I played with that gave me that impression. They were comfortable with Greyhawk (although they created their own setting) and they didn't want to try anything new. It didn't help that our games were primarily hack-and-slash games, and the background was mere fluff. Now that I DM the game, I run FR. But I plan to show its diversity. The group is currently adventuring in Shadowdale, but I plan to make them more cosmopolitan.
Azzadar 07-20-03, 05:42 AM	Although I run FR because my players really want to play there, I'd rather run it in Greyhawk. I like the fact that it's underdeveloped. I could have Iuz's legion flatten the City of Greyhawk or Nyrond and the playerswon't say "that wouldn't happen, where's Elminster or one of the sisters." I know I can do what I want with FR, but my players are also fans and read most of the fiction. As far as the power levels of the setting go, FR has more characters to demonstrate magic than Greyhawk does. I believe the FR novel editors push their writers to up the levels of their characters. Characters who can kill hoards of orcs sell more books than a party who get wasted by an orc scouting party.
Will Brandiman 07-24-03, 08:02 AM	No contest in my mind. FR wins hands down. I have always hated one thing above all others about Greyhawk - the names. I mean, c'mon! The places all have ridiculous names. And as for the gods....Who in their right mind would worship a god called Wee Jas? She sounds like a scotsman talking about a small person called Jess! "Och, I was in the pub with wee Jass last nicht". And I'm fairly sure that the non-human gods started out in GH too. Maglubiyet? Blildoolpoolp? Not exactly names to inspire fear and awe are they! Also, I don't think I've ever seen a map of Oerth. Perhaps if they went into it in the same details as FRCS covered Faerun then I might like it better. But I doubt it.
Lashan 07-24-03, 03:02 PM	I've played both settings since 1E and I like them both. I have to say that I don't like how FR has slowly turned high magic. When I do play the FR, I do tone it down a bit. Still, in all the years of playing, I have never run an epic level game in FR. I dislike epic games and don't plan on running one. I will say that the way FR keeps changing into something I am not as interested in, I am drawn more and more to Greyhawk. I've started playing the Living Greyhawk games and found it quite fun. I don't recall whoever said that Greyhawk was too much like Middle Earth hasn't really looked at Greyhawk that much. I don't see the resemblance at all. In fact, Greyhawk had better detail of human culture more so then FR did (until Races of Faerun, at least).
Jack in the Green 07-24-03, 07:01 PM	Forgotten Realms.
Darth Funky 07-27-03, 03:47 PM	Originally posted by Rapiersman I must say that I have almost no knowledge on Greyhawk, but I found Oerth (oh, come on, Oerth :embarrass ) just a modified Earth of Middle-Age. Where did it say, "Greyhawk has one corresponding land for each real-world land", or something like that. I want quite a different world form Earth. Forgotten Realms has also this problem, but not as bad as with Oerth. I found that FR is much more guilty of earth analogues than Greyhawk. To stick with the point of this thread, I prefer GH to FR. I'll agree with those who say there are good points to both. To me, the GM has more room to maneuver in GH rather than FR where everything has been spelled out for them. In my experience of playing both and GMing the Realms (and I am by no means a great GM), no matter the amount of material, it still takes a GM worth a darn to make it come to life. If you have a great FR GM, then the realms will be a magical wonderful place; however, the same is true of GH.
Desies 07-27-03, 03:54 PM	There isn't enough personal connection with GH. People can go to Mithril Hall and remeber the books and they know what it is like in all it's glory and splendor. That just isn't possible with GH
Yamo 07-27-03, 04:53 PM	There isn't enough personal connection with GH. People can go to Mithril Hall and remeber the books and they know what it is like in all it's glory and splendor. That just isn't possible with GH Unless, of course, you've read the Greyhawk novels. :rolleyes:
Jagermeister 07-27-03, 05:25 PM	Greyhawk novels, Greyhawk sourcebooks, etc... Connecting with the history of the setting is simple. It really is all personal taste. FR seems best for DMs with little time to create/personalize their setting. It has a vast expanse of detail, which can be both a blessing and a curse. GH seems best for DMs who would rather be able to create and personalize the setting without having to worry about going against some standardized dogmatic canon. Each has their place, and I enjoy both. Most of the time, I prefer Greyhawk because it has a more grim, gritty, dangerous feel to it. The Circle of Eight are powerful, but many of them have died, as have other pivotal figures of Oerth. The powerful NPCs of the Realms don't seem to have that vulnerable side (I don't see authors killing off Drizzt or Elminster in the near future). FR seems kind of light in that respect... fluffy. The uber-NPCs interfere too much in canon material. I don't run it that way in my FR games, but that's my personal preference. The PCs should be the focus...maybe the novels would do well to shift their attention from the so-called uber NPCs of the Realms, to more humble heroes. ---Will--- As for names, the Realms have their share of horrid knock-offs (Belegost/Beregost come to mind...among other blatant Tolkien rip-offs. Tolkien has influenced D&D to a large degree, the Realms perhaps even more so).
Desies 07-28-03, 02:06 AM	As for names, the Realms have their share of horrid knock-offs (Belegost/Beregost come to mind...among other blatant Tolkien rip-offs. Tolkien has influenced D&D to a large degree, the Realms perhaps even more so). I agree most definately!
Poiniard 07-28-03, 09:57 PM	Belegost is a dwarven citadel. Beregost is a town run by human clerics. There must be thousands of names in the Forgotten Realms and Middle Earth. This hardly qualifies as a blatant rip-off. Greyhawk may be lower-magic, but it is certainly not low magic. The old, classic Greyhawk modules gave out powerful magic weapons like candy. Greyhawk has cities, even whole nations, ruled by demigods, demons and powerful undead. Greyhawk has uber-NPC’s of its own- Mordenkainen, Gwydiesin, The Walker, The Spectre, Heward, Murlynd, Kelanen, Keoghtem, Mayaheine, Vecna, Iuz, Xaene. It’s just that few of Greyhawk’s Most Powerful are of good alignment. Gwydiesin and Mordenkainen of Greyhawk both travel the planes, and their visits with Elminster are well-documented. Greyhawk has its share of cool names, too.
IntotheNight 07-28-03, 11:06 PM	Forgotten Realms makes you fell like you are in a living world, while the 'living' greyhawk campaign failed to do this. Forgotten Realms wins hands down.
Jagermeister 07-29-03, 12:56 AM	A DM brings the world to life, or the players do through their characters, not some rulebook. A rulebook or setting is just several words, at base. It takes a good game(DM and Characters) to bring it to life. The idea of one setting winning hands down is absurd, as such opinions are derived from one's own experiences, and hardly definitive in a universal sense.
Azzadar 07-29-03, 02:42 AM	Preach, Jagermeister, preach.
robilaruk 07-29-03, 06:28 AM	Re age of campaigns The Realms is actually OLDER than Greyhawk - Ed Conceived it in 67/68 as a place for his short stories to take place in - Greyhawk came into being 71/72 when Gygax modified the chainmail game into D&D Cheers Damian
Bishop the Bardican 07-31-03, 01:10 PM	i grew up on greyhawk, but have become a realms fanatic. greyhawk is just too vanilla. i like a world with a wide spectrum of power. our group usually has three different campaigns, low level, high level, and odd/experimental/strange setting. faerun scales down, up, and sideways to fulfill these roles. the low level group are graduates of the cormyrian naval academy who have been hired by a group of merchant families in impiltur to maintain sea lanes and hunt pirates. the high level group are interplanar bountie hunters based in calimport. the odd group is composed mainly of ghostwise halfilings, wemics and, arakrokas that spend their time hunting humans for fun and profit in the chondalwood. anywhere, any level, there is somebody above and below you in the realms.
IntotheNight 07-31-03, 01:51 PM	Originally posted by Jagermeister A DM brings the world to life, or the players do through their characters, not some rulebook. i'll give you that!, but the forgotten realms campaign gives the DM much more to work with. cheers!
kedi 07-31-03, 02:08 PM	Originally posted by Herald DwarfHammer I HATE BOTH I LOVE MIDDLE EARTH AND KRYNN BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHH AHAHAHAJHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHHAHAHAHAHAH AH AH HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH WHEW.................................... . BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH. Thank you. FR FOREVER! KÝLL HERAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALD! TEMPUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS! Smile :)
TempistRane 07-31-03, 02:35 PM	LOL Herald is one of my players but i will have him fed to the lions.....no TO all the FR lovers out there you can beat him for 1gp meat me in Luskan at 12:00pm AND BRING A SWORD!!!!
Lios_Paladin_of_Tyr 07-31-03, 05:13 PM	Let's settle this in the noble, cultured tradition of NPC DEATH MATCHES!!! Elminster takes on Mordenkainen! The Seven Sisters vs The Circle of Eight! Drizzt against that Justicar guy! Of course, some of these fights are unbalenced, so I'm open to suggestions!
Jagermeister 08-01-03, 01:27 AM	Originally posted by IntotheNight i'll give you that!, but the forgotten realms campaign gives the DM much more to work with. cheers! I agree, but sometimes that might not be what the DM needs. I am enjoy creating the details on my own, which helps keep my players more in the dark and on their toes in game play. This is of course personal preference. Even in the Realms, I tend to just make up what I feel like, whether it goes against canon material or not. One setting is really not better than any the other definitively. Each seem to fit different DMs preferences, so they all end up having a place.
TempistRane 08-01-03, 01:33 AM	MONKEY KNIFE FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TempistRane 08-01-03, 04:25 AM	b
Lashan 08-01-03, 02:52 PM	I've always liked the detail that has gone into FR. I love the Volo's Guide series. The small detail that is really just too much sweat for a DM is already presented. If you really don't want to use that tavern or other part, then the players go to another! I've found it makes DMing easier. What I dislike is how FR has developed. The novels are terrible, in my opinion. I hate how the game world has changed to match everything in the novels. The high lvl npcs that are detailed in books are not what the FR is all about. If they chucked every novel, put the gods back before the Time of Trouble, and then dumped the whole lot of NPCs that are listed, then the FR would be great again. As it is now, it is so difficult to change all the new material that comes out tainted with the crap that I don't like. Greyhawk is somewhere that I played when I was younger, but I found it really hard to get into the details of it. I never felt as if I was there. Now that I am getting tired of FR (after 20 or so years of reading about it) I have been playing the Living Greyhawk. That game has been doing a great way of bringing the game world to life for me that it never had before. I dunno. I still run my game in FR, but use all the old 1E and 2E material and convert it to 3E. I am a player in the Living Greyhawk game, though. I have heard good things about the Scarred Lands, though. Anyone seen that setting?
Lios_Paladin_of_Tyr 08-01-03, 07:26 PM	What about my Npc Death match idea!? (My money is on the realms!) In my opinion, I prefer the Realms, mostly because I know more about it. The large quantity, not to mention quality, of details about the world, areas in it, and npcs helped me with my formitave years as a dm. As I grew in my gaming skills, the campaign grew as well, providing more options for the setting. Plus, anything you don't like about the Realms is easily changable. You want Bhaal back? Have a person drink the water at that bridge and be transformed into his avatar. Options are infinite. In short, Realms good, NPC death match beter!
Dr_Draco 08-01-03, 10:57 PM	Originally posted by Lios_Paladin_of_Tyr Elminster takes on Mordenkainen! The Seven Sisters vs The Circle of Eight! Drizzt against that Justicar guy! Hmm... El beats Mord hands down. The Seven Sisters would probably take out the Co8, especially considering Mord would be dealing with El, thus making it a Co7 :smirk:. And the Justicar would own Drizzt :D. :behold: Dr. D
Lios_Paladin_of_Tyr 08-01-03, 11:36 PM	Originally posted by Dr_Draco Hmm... El beats Mord hands down. The Seven Sisters would probably take out the Co8, especially considering Mord would be dealing with El, thus making it a Co7 :smirk:. And the Justicar would own Drizzt :D. :behold: Dr. D That sounds about acuate, my bad for forgetting about mordenkainen being in the circle of eight ( unless he was revived after his fight with elminster, assuming there was anything left). Mabye I should make a thread about this...
Mach2.5 08-02-03, 05:43 AM	Mabye I should make a thread about this... *sigh* not again . . . . Anyhow, I agree with the posts about it being much more focused on personal flavor than anything else. Granted FR has a lot of detail and a lot of source material you can draw from, GH has a lot of depth of realism that FR lacks. Even with as much detail that has been given over to FR through numerous sourcebooks, countless Dragon Magazine articles, and more books than you can shake a wand at, GH still seems so much more 'real'. When one nation interacts with another, it does so in a manner or fashion that is completely in character with that nation's ideals and beliefs. Even good nations in GH start wars over what they believe to be right. In FR, the good guys wear white and the bad guys wear black and the good guys fight the bad guys and the good guys win in the end. FR is like a contrived fairy tale at times. Nothing wrong with a good fairy tale sometimes, but it grows old as well. You begin to easily anticipate the next aspect of the campaign change. In GH, the unique and intricate nature of many of its groups means that you may not always know what's going to happen. Things can be surprising and fresh. There is also more grey area. The good guys are sometimes wrong and the bad guys do actually win a few. Things are not so easily black and white and that very important fact is what I feel lends so much more realism to GH. As far as a Death Dual, sorry, but Rajaat would own you all!! Mwahahahahahahaha!
)v(ethos 08-02-03, 01:28 PM	FR has more (and better) history & background than GH, it has simply more personality. Ed Greenwood with his ideas and the novels by all the other FR authors have made the FR a rich, and greatly developed, world. Some have pointed out that it is overdeveloped and thereby dosent gives much room for 'maneuvering', but i would rather think of it as having much background for new stories/adventures and campaigns. The FRCS has also many hints at stories that could be developed further, and thereby further inriching the FR. I see the development as a strong side, not one of its 'weak spots'.
Jagermeister 08-02-03, 03:11 PM	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Granted FR has a lot of detail and a lot of source material you can draw from, GH has a lot of depth of realism that FR lacks. Even with as much detail that has been given over to FR through numerous sourcebooks, countless Dragon Magazine articles, and more books than you can shake a wand at, GH still seems so much more 'real'. When one nation interacts with another, it does so in a manner or fashion that is completely in character with that nation's ideals and beliefs. Even good nations in GH start wars over what they believe to be right. In FR, the good guys wear white and the bad guys wear black and the good guys fight the bad guys and the good guys win in the end. FR is like a contrived fairy tale at times. Nothing wrong with a good fairy tale sometimes, but it grows old as well. You begin to easily anticipate the next aspect of the campaign change. In GH, the unique and intricate nature of many of its groups means that you may not always know what's going to happen. Things can be surprising and fresh. There is also more grey area. The good guys are sometimes wrong and the bad guys do actually win a few. Things are not so easily black and white and that very important fact is what I feel lends so much more realism to GH. Good points. The whole rant on the realism I agree with entirely. As for history or background of one setting being better or worse than another...it's really a matter of opinion, never of definitive fact.
Faraer 08-02-03, 03:25 PM	Greyhawk is defined by the fantasy fiction that most influenced Gary Gygax (Vance, Leiber, DeCamp/Pratt, etc.), a more than usually literal basis in medieval history and society, his philosophy of gaming, and (more subtly) by his libertarian politics. The continuity is compact; Gygax isn't a worldbuilder for the sake of worldbuilding. The Realms is influenced by a lot of same authors but takes the tradition in a different direction. It wears its heart on its sleeve and doesn't foreground its sophistication as the new 3E-inspired settings tend to. It came from fiction and roleplaying-over-rules AD&D, is strengthened by campaign play as Greyhawk is, and loves lore for its own sake and to create a complete world around the PCs (the majority of Realmslore remains unpublished). Both settings have a confused publishing history with deviation from their Gygaxian/Greenwoodian cores which frustrates some and excites others. Beyond this, you can point at different aspects of the published settings and make different points. Oerik seems more real to some, Faerûn to others.
Poiniard 08-02-03, 05:54 PM	One thing which annoys me about the Realms is the comic nature which is sometimes injected. Take, for example, a placename like the Upsen Downs. That makes me cringe. I'll admit, though, that some these light-hearted, humorous elements are part of the original Realms. Another thing I dislike about the Realms is how it was twisted by TSR to make it all a single setting- adding Maztica and Kara Tur, the whole "Spelljamming" and "Elven Imperial Navy" storylines, etc. The third thing about the Realms which bothers me is the "MUD-flation" which is typically seen in MMORG's. Now in the Realms we can head down to our nearest Thayan Enclave or Aurora's Emporium and stock up on "arrows, +1" or whatever. This sort of takes some of the mystique out of magic. In the 1E Realms, every magic item (we read about) had a background, and the only place you could buy or sell magic was seedy, hard-to-find back-alley "grey merchants," fences and smugglers. None of my complaints can be blamed on the novel authors, and, of course, they've all been corrected in my campaign, so there's really nothing for me to complain about. As for Greyhawk, I absolutely loved the whole "Greyhawk Wars" and "Ivid the Undying" and all the turmoil the place went through. It's good to see things shaken up a bit. Too bad they never followed through.
Mach2.5 08-02-03, 11:52 PM	Not to take an oposing view of my previous posts, but I will give FR a point for simplicity vs GH's complexity. You can easily surmise most FR nations, races, cultures, classes, and organization within a paragraph or two of narration and understand pretty much everything you need to about that idea. Fleshing anything more out is only adding levels of depth to that basic summery. This does indeed make FR an easier setting to grasp for novice players new to the game (note that I'm not saying GH is for advanced players and FR is for noobs, not in the slightest). Many new players when looking over and reading older GH material find that it is written in a format that is often times not very simple. Often times you find that you have to delve into pages and pages of background and detail in order to understand what makes something in GH tick. For people new to gaming looking for a first campaign to start up in, GH is often times the poorer choice. This is based on the actual presentation, developement of language used when writing out flavor descriptions and background.
Rexxer Blackwulfe 08-03-03, 07:11 PM	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Many new players when looking over and reading older GH material find that it is written in a format that is often times not very simple. Often times you find that you have to delve into pages and pages of background and detail in order to understand what makes something in GH tick. For people new to gaming looking for a first campaign to start up in, GH is often times the poorer choice. This is based on the actual presentation, developement of language used when writing out flavor descriptions and background. I've played D&D since '78 and I still find this to be true for me. I've never liked GH. It's always read like a textbook to me. It's full of facts and the names of people and places and the things they've done, but very light on anything that would make me feel anything for these people or places. I've tried running it multiple times and just can't pull any substance out of it to keep myself or my players interested. It's like watching a documentary on the history of accounting. I've never read any of the accompanying FR novels, but the writing style used in the FR setting books is so much more colorful that it has continually drawn me back in. Every time I pick up one of the books, I find another interesting seed waiting to be grown into a character concept and/or a campaign idea. This is the text that makes me "feel" and the one that I find tends to pull real interest and emotional response from my players as well.
Lashan 08-04-03, 02:24 PM	I agree with the last poster a lot! I never could get into the Greyhawk material as it was too dry and boring. The FR material always sucked me in. I am not referring to the novels, but to the game resources. Ed Greenwood has an excellent way of writing the sourcebooks. Still, I think there are things that have developed that has turned FR rather black/white or too much magic.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-04-03, 03:04 PM	Originally posted by Jagermeister The PCs should be the focus...maybe the novels would do well to shift their attention from the so-called uber NPCs of the Realms, to more humble heroes. I agree.
Respen Starym 08-05-03, 01:26 AM	I have always liked FR better. I havent played any old mateiral from either side, but the few times iv played GH i have foud myself getting no where fast, after a few sessions we start back up in FR. I will agree about one thing, FR is to cut and dry, but it dosent have to be... I have played in many missions were my group has attack other good people, once we were forced to kill a whole group of Harpers, becuase even though their good they...well lets just they think to much of themselves. In my game the runt of the group suprized Everyone by amasing an army and whiping out much of every thing, which turned out to be a mere distraction, while his armys where being fought he asumed godhood, evil dosent always lose, it all depends on the DM and players. The only good grayhawk game ive played, we started in FR, but went to GH becuase it turned out me freind was an heir to someplace called the great kingdom, some knights needed him to unite something. oh yeah, sorry about the spelling
paradoxmage 08-05-03, 04:33 AM	I personnaly as a DM find forgotten realms to be much more enticing to play and fun in that it is diverse in many ways. I Dm FR just for the reason that there is much more material for me to work with and alter to my personal wants and needs. The people are much more real and the epic characters have little to do with(if anything) with any PC's in my campaigns(as what they are doing would more than likely end up destroying any party of adventurers). So I would choose FR as my favorite, but on the other hand I understand why people choose greyhawk. I can not even count the times that a person has said "But that isnt what the book says!" and can understand how makeing most to everything up to your specifications is very nice. With greyhawk I know I could just make up what everything is and wouldnt have the whole group of players also know everything that is going on everywhere because they have the same books.:cool:
Mach2.5 08-05-03, 08:28 AM	I can not even count the times that a person has said "But that isnt what the book says!" Amen, to that! I do think that mentality amongst enough gamers is what actually turns people off of FR. GH does have plenty of room for individual developement without having to contradict, ignore, or modify established canon. With so much of the setting detailed and developed, many DMs feel stiffled creatively by the entire FR setting. Granted, many people ditch from a setting what they don't like anyhow, but then they're no longer playing FR, or GH, or PS, they're playing their homebrew version of such. There are, IMO, too many purists though who do not like deviations from canon. Many people I know who play FR would balk at the idea of a FR game run that excludes Elminster and the other Chosen, or where the Waterdeep was a ruined city torn by civil war. In fact, I highly doubt that I could run FR 'as is' without modifying so many things that is would become a chore to me to simply sift through the established material changing this, nixing that, altering this group, or killing of that person, etc. Since I'd rather not spend several game sessions devoted exclusively to detailing changes to the game to my players, I'll pick through other settings that I have some room to expand creatively that do not infringe on the player's personal views of the setting, such as GH, Dark Sun, or Planescape. These settings have enough developement that I don't have to try and 'sell' the idea to my group, think of everything from scratch myself, but also have the freedom to easily expand the game in the directions best for me and my players. This can be done with FR, of course, but not nearly as easily and I'm not one who likes my hobby to become a chore.
Bayushi Tai 08-07-03, 10:41 PM	None of it is Original at all, Eliminster is just Gandolf with a different name, The Drow were stolen from GH, along with Kara Tur. For the most part the Realms, are like going to Disney Land, yeah its shiny and just as shallow. If there is ever a mogor threat to the Realms your PC's well NEVER get to stop it, cause some NPC in some novel already bet you to it. adn Nothin gever changes.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 08-07-03, 11:43 PM	Originally posted by Bayushi Tai None of it is Original at all, Eliminster is just Gandolf with a different name, Not true. Elminster is not like Gandalf personality-wise, and he was inspired by many different people (not just Gandalf). For the most part the Realms, are like going to Disney Land, yeah its shiny and just as shallow. If there is ever a mogor threat to the Realms your PC's well NEVER get to stop it, cause some NPC in some novel already bet you to it. adn Nothin gever changes. Yeah, whatever.:rolleyes: But, you obviously know more about the Realms than most people, so I will not further comment.:rolleyes:
Cunning Linguist 08-08-03, 01:23 AM	I can not even count the times that a person has said "But that isnt what the book says!" If one of my players would come up with one realm lore that I did not know about there is bonus XP all around. I proud myself in knowing more about the realms then any of my players, and if the players love the setting so much, that they sit down and read FR lore books, well all the better.
Jagermeister 08-08-03, 01:29 AM	I wish I had players that were versed in setting lore. Mine tend not to read much setting material (except for what I include in my handouts), whether we are playing in Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, or Ravenloft. It helps the player incorporate basic knowledge of the world that his/her character would know. Maybe it's just that they don't want to spend money on the setting books themselves. Maybe they are too lazy to read what is available online. Oh well...
rmilsop 08-08-03, 10:28 AM	I used to dig up as much FR stuff as I could, but my DM has actually banned us from reading the novels etc (threatened me with exclusion form a dragonlance campaign cause I'd read the books, despite the fact that they are what gave me the passion to play a dragonlance campaign. Makes no sense to me) because I was remembering more of the rules and cultures than he was. Back on topic, I prefer FR over GH, just because it feels so much "fuller". There seems to be a lot more literature to back up the FR and flesh it out than there is in GH. Of course, this leaves GH open to your characters, and perhaps my DM just hasn't written an involving enough campaign for us to be really avid about the GH world, but that's another topic altogether.
Phoebus 08-08-03, 02:01 PM	I, like others that have posted to this thread, grew up playing in the GH setting and am therefore a little biased towards it. However, we play our campaign in the Realms because the quality and content of the FR setting sourcebooks is so much better than those available for GH. If they did a new version of the GH setting with richer and better content, I would probably move to it. I am not a big fan of the "high magic" content of the Realms either, so we just don't play it that way.
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-08-03, 04:16 PM	Personally, I like FR better than Greyhawk (but that doesn't mean I dislike greyhawk) because FR is so much more detailed than Greyhawk. For instance, a whole different place is Sembia in comparison to the Silver Marches in comparison to Thay to Rashemen to the Spine of the World to Baulder's Gate, etc etc. The greyhawk book is a bland book on statistics and light history on each important nation or location, whereas FR's places, peoples, and properties are unique and different from one spot to another. FR has flavor whereas Greyhawk doesnt. But, like I said, it isn't that I don't like greyhawk. A good DM can make greyhawk shine and make the setting interesting, as can a good DM with forgotten realms, but there's so much more with FR.
Rysellan 08-08-03, 04:32 PM	Originally posted by Bayushi Tai None of it is Original at all, Eliminster is just Gandolf with a different name, The Drow were stolen from GH, along with Kara Tur. For the most part the Realms, are like going to Disney Land, yeah its shiny and just as shallow. If there is ever a mogor threat to the Realms your PC's well NEVER get to stop it, cause some NPC in some novel already bet you to it. adn Nothin gever changes. Um, except for the fact that Gandalf isn't even human, and he's immortal. Just because they're both powerful wizards doesn't make them the same, read up on their stories. Dark Elves are from Tolkein. Don't know much about Grewhawk Drow, but the FR drow have their own history, society, pantheon, and agenda. Don't read the novels if you like (I don't), but saying the Realms never change is just untrue. City of Shade? Constant upheaval in Mulhorand and Unther? Thayan wars? The Tuigan Horde? Cormyr's problems? Destruction of Zhentil Keep? Return of Bane, ascension of Mystra, Cyric, Kelemvor, etc? Time of Troubles? The end of the Elven Retreat? I could go on, and any and all of these events can be used by a DM with a modicum of imagination and sense. GH vs FR? Shuruppak-They don't call him The Reaver for nothin' ;) Aside from Elminster, we've got Larloch, Telemont, Manshoon, the Thayan Zulkirs, who are like a Circle of 8 all by themselves, the Simbul, and unknown numbers of Elven High Mages. These guys don't mess around.
Mach2.5 08-09-03, 03:53 AM	Shuruppak-They don't call him The Reaver for nothin' ;) Aside from Elminster, we've got Larloch, Telemont, Manshoon, the Thayan Zulkirs, who are like a Circle of 8 all by themselves, the Simbul, and unknown numbers of Elven High Mages. These guys don't mess around. [/B] This is a prime source of contention for people who do not like FR and favor GH. In GH, there are very few 'epic' personalities. This leaves far more room for the PCs to take center stage and shine through out their careers, and not merely as (quoted from a discussion) 'lackeys and fetchboys to those with real power'. Many players feel stiffled by the fact that their PC will never, ever, ever be on par with the top notch movers and shakers of FR. They'll never be looked at as equals by the good guys, never be respected as worthy adversaries by the top bad guys. In GH, yes, there are fewer 'through the roof stat-wise' NPCs, but there are plenty of famous individuals who make their mark where they travel. This is something that the PCs can aspire to, and easily relate to. What PC is ever going to be able to truly relate to being a several thousand year old immortal wizard of tremendous power carrying a spark of divinity? (Elminster) Whereas a PC can easily identify with an slightly over middle age wizard of great power? (Mordenkainen) The PC would easily be able to relate more to Mord than Elminster since he actually has a chance at becoming a peer of Mordenkainen. Still, if it boils down to a death match, Dark Sun would still chew up the top notches of both settings and spit em out, then go after the Dark Eight and Lords of the Nine, just for some afternoon kicks ;)
Faraer 08-09-03, 11:51 AM	That's one of the canards. Greyhawk has no shortage of personages, quasi-deities, hero-deities, and demigods. As in the Realms, they act mostly behind the scenes -- the people who try to make that argument always seem to forget, for example, that it's stressed that if PCs try to see Elminster in his tower he won't be there. Even if there was a large disparity in these mighty guys, which there isn't, jealousy of NPCs is still inane. The 'nothing for PCs to do in the Realms' argument breaks down immediately when you actually consider the sources and the intent of their writers. Do we suppose Ed's players keep coming back after all these years because their PCs feel overshadowed?
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-09-03, 04:18 PM	but that's the one thing I like about the realms, because there's always something to do. A PC could potentiallly be busy from level 1 - 60, because of NPC's like Elminster and the greater number of gods and the complicated weave that is their relationships with each other. Think baulder's gate one and two and the add-ons to them.
Lios_Paladin_of_Tyr 08-11-03, 08:16 PM	I've counted the posts favoring each setting each setting, this is it so far: Forgotten Realms: 22 :angel: Greyhawk: 6 :sad: Other: 2:b: I hope I counted them correctly,I had to infer a bit on some of them. As for the NPC death matches, lets bring in some of those older GH uber-characters ( I saw some characters eallier on this board, one was "the walker" or something) to balence it out.
Mach2.5 08-12-03, 11:32 AM	Not a very fair rating system I think. Try going over to the Greyhawk boards where there is a very similar topic. You'll see that over there, FR supporters = 0 :)
rmilsop 08-12-03, 05:52 PM	In the blurred lines between sleep and awakening last night, a thought flashed through my head: FR is dynamic, whereas GH is static. Now, whilst this may not ultimately be true, because of the large number of books (not just rulebooks, but novels) that are cosntantly being written for FR, it feels more alive than GH, which afaik has little in the way of recreational fiction to support it. Yes? No?
Kilamar 08-12-03, 07:30 PM	Originally posted by Lios_Paladin_of_Tyr In my opinion, I prefer the Realms, mostly because I know more about it. That pretty much sums it up. Information for FR is easily accessible while the Greyhawk stuff is out of print. You cannot like or even play a setting you know nothing about. I got some ressources for the Greyhawk Campaign and I must say that I like it very much and I prefer it to FR, unfortunately I am an even bigger Planescape fan :D Originally posted by rmilsop FR is dynamic, whereas GH is static. Now, whilst this may not ultimately be true, because of the large number of books (not just rulebooks, but novels) that are cosntantly being written for FR, it feels more alive than GH, which afaik has little in the way of recreational fiction to support it. That is the reason that GH seems dusty, old, outdated. That WotC does not support GH is pure business decision based on the fact that GH was negelcted for many years (because of internal reasons) while FR got a lot of support during that time and build up a huge fanbase. Unless WotC publishes a GH campaign book, GH will have difficulty to attract new players. Kilamar
Lashan 08-13-03, 12:33 PM	I think it is wrong to say that FR has flavor that Greyhawk doesn't. Sure, you have Sembia, Silver Marches, Thay, and Rasheman. GH has the Great Kingdom, Theocracy of Pale, Gran March, and the Scarlet Brotherhood. Greyhawk has a rich and detailed history and flavor. The difference is in the detail. FR has had a lot of it detailed and GH hasn't. That is the major difference between the two game worlds. If you say that GH is static, then you are referring to following gaming products that come out and change things "officially". If you are a DM, then all of your gaming worlds, no matter where you play, are not static. As each DM runs a game world, things do change and take place. If you mean that GH never advances "officially", then you are kinda wrong, too. There was the original World of Greyhawk and then the Greyhawk Wars that took place. That changed the whole face of Greyhawk forever! Also, if you play in the Living Greyhawk, then the world is an every changing and expanding one. What doesn't happen to Greyhawk is that the "official" version of the game world doesn't advance every so many months. Personally, I like that better then what happens in FR. I love DMing in the FR, but part of that is that my players know close to NOTHING about the FR.. They don't read any novels and they haven't played in many FR games before. In fact, I don't want them reading any of the novels. My players still know what sembians are like and they know the flavor of the Moonsea as well. It is my skill as a DM that transports the players into the FR and lets them explore it. A good DM can do the same for Greyhawk as well. To me, everything hinges on the DM. If you have a great DM, then you have a great game no matter what setting you have. If you have a bad DM, then you can have a crummy experience in either GH or FR (but I seem to have had worse experiences in FR). As a DM, I really like breaking out the Volo's Guide books and describing the inn or tavern that they just walked into with little preperation. What I can't stand is someone telling me that "that would never happen in the FR" during my game. As long as all my players know about the FR is what I tell them, then I am good in the FR.
Faraer 08-13-03, 12:48 PM	Unless WotC publishes a GH campaign book, GH will have difficulty to attract new players.It has, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. And very good it is too, given its appointed task as a compromise between the various versions of the world that have appeared. For me, though, Greyhawk represents more than anything Gygaxian AD&D; I doubt I'd play it with 3E or just using the place names and continuity without regard for that style. So for my money Gary Gygax's Living Fantasy, which describes Gygax's understanding of a quasi-medieval fantasy society, is more a Greyhawk sourcebook that anything TSR or Wizards have published since 1987. Just like with the Realms, you have to dig a bit to see what makes Greyhawk tick. (By the way, I don't like the title of this thread. Oppositional X vs Y discussions are wastes of time.)
Telagaunt 08-14-03, 01:26 AM	Originally posted by Mach2.5 This is a prime source of contention for people who do not like FR and favor GH. In GH, there are very few 'epic' personalities. This leaves far more room for the PCs to take center stage and shine through out their careers, and not merely as (quoted from a discussion) 'lackeys and fetchboys to those with real power'. Many players feel stiffled by the fact that their PC will never, ever, ever be on par with the top notch movers and shakers of FR. They'll never be looked at as equals by the good guys, never be respected as worthy adversaries by the top bad guys. In GH, yes, there are fewer 'through the roof stat-wise' NPCs, but there are plenty of famous individuals who make their mark where they travel. This is something that the PCs can aspire to, and easily relate to. What PC is ever going to be able to truly relate to being a several thousand year old immortal wizard of tremendous power carrying a spark of divinity? (Elminster) Whereas a PC can easily identify with an slightly over middle age wizard of great power? (Mordenkainen) The PC would easily be able to relate more to Mord than Elminster since he actually has a chance at becoming a peer of Mordenkainen. Still, if it boils down to a death match, Dark Sun would still chew up the top notches of both settings and spit em out, then go after the Dark Eight and Lords of the Nine, just for some afternoon kicks ;) True, the FRC has more epic characters, and very powerful ones at that. But that doesn't mean it sucks because of it. The FRC is just more 'fantasy' IMO. As for PC's getting a better chance to shine in the spotlight, and Bayushi Tai by saying some NPC will get to an important event first, well that's just ****** DMing. That's not the FRC's fault, that's entirely the DM. They don't have to make an NPC go defeat some 500 bugbears marching on Luskan. Even if it seems practical an NPC will do it, that doesn't make it inevitable, there are dozens of ways you can go about that, hell, you can even have some NPC tell you to do it for a big reward or something, or maybe just make the NPC busy elsewhere like a lot of DMs do. So, your arguements are crap. Most PnPers these days are too concerned about becoming some powerful Archmage, or being a fantastic warrior like Drizzt, or whatever. They focus too much on them when they don't pay enough attention on their own PC's. True, chances of a PC reaching an epic level is slim IMO, but no one ever said your PC has to be Toril's God-Player and take over Faerun, kill Elminster, chop Drizzt's head off. When playing a videogame, you dont go off and defeat the end boss guy right away either, you have to build yourself up, slowly, and most people will get intimidated by Mr Chosen of Doohickey God, and will lose patience in even striving for a decent level. Now sure, FR has it's flaws, but all campaigns do. Not everyone is going to like a certain campaign that a small handful of people decided to make for thousands of people to play. That's why there are many campaigns, and guidelines on making your own even.
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-14-03, 03:55 AM	I think it was best stated (by whom, I don't know) that GH handles low level adventuring better and FR handles high level play better. Both handle epic level play roughly the same, but with FR's greater number of epic NPC's the players have more peers.
Jagermeister 08-14-03, 10:11 PM	Originally posted by Telagaunt As for PC's getting a better chance to shine in the spotlight, and Bayushi Tai by saying some NPC will get to an important event first, well that's just ****** DMing. That's not the FRC's fault, that's entirely the DM. I've yet to see a DM create this problem in any FR game I've been a part of. However, the DM doesn't have to do it when the novels do it for him/her. A DM can fix this problem, or make it worse. Otherwise, I agree with you.
Lashan 08-15-03, 08:16 AM	I've been in a few FR games that went horrible. The DM was a huge fan of the novels in every instance (and different DMs every time). The major NPCs made apperances all the time. It was more like the players were visiting a theme park then it was playing an adventure. We were there to just activate the NPCs to run around and do things. You know, you step on that plate and the animatronic Elminster activates and says, "Ye know, I've seen drow in those caverns to the east." Every time that this has happened, there was at least one person who was new to the FR. They ended up despising the game world after it. I would too, if it was my only experience. For those of you who don't think Greyhawk doesn't have any flavor, check out the Canon Fire (http://www.canonfire.com) for depth and flavor.
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-15-03, 01:51 PM	yes, a large part of liking either world really does depend on the DM and how good the DM represents each world. A bad DM can really ruin things. A good DM could even make Greyhawk interesting.
Bayushi Tai 08-15-03, 02:44 PM	The Problem with this topic and topics like it, is that there is no point to them. Posting it on the GH board and all you'll get is GH great FR bad. Where as if you posted this here, GH - bad , FR - great, and over on the Ravenloft board they would think we are all nuts. SO while I'm the first to admit that I got wrapped up in it, what is the point. It's almost as bad as how's stronger Superman or the Hulk. (BTW the answer is -who ever's book it is). So I guess my point is that every one shoule be open to every setting, a good DM is a good DM and a good story is a good story no matter where it's set.
TheDarkestOfAngels 08-15-03, 02:58 PM	stated by Bayushi Tai The Problem with this topic and topics like it, is that there is no point to them. Posting it on the GH board and all you'll get is GH great FR bad. Where as if you posted this here, GH - bad , FR - great, and over on the Ravenloft board they would think we are all nuts. SO while I'm the first to admit that I got wrapped up in it, what is the point. It's almost as bad as how's stronger Superman or the Hulk. (BTW the answer is -who ever's book it is). So I guess my point is that every one shoule be open to every setting, a good DM is a good DM and a good story is a good story no matter where it's set. I couldn't agree more.
Charles Phipps 08-16-03, 03:59 AM	The Realms and Greyhawk have their ups and downs.... The Realms I've always enjoyed because it has a slightly more tongue in cheek oddity to it and there's so much MORE written about it that there seems to be alot to like even if you hate certain aspects of it. What ORIGINALLY drew me was the humorous nature of Elminster, the novels (Drizzt and Arilyn), the fact there were hundreds of interesting gods in the TOT who were interfering, and everything felt VERY larger than life. Greyhawk seemed very much like Dragonlance in that it seemed fairly "normal" and unclimatc except for Iuz, Graazt, and Vecna who admittadly are some rather big players but rather HIgghhhhh up there....there's villains everywhere to throw at players in FR. Basically FR wins because everything cool Greyhawk has that would overwhelm Toril... The Seldarine The Dwarvish Pantheon The Gnomish Pantheon The Halfling pantheon (the human pantheon of GH sucks) Lolth and the Drow Is all available on Toril
Bayushi Tai 08-19-03, 08:56 PM	"Greyhawk seemed very much like Dragonlance in that it seemed fairly "normal" and unclimatc except for Iuz, Graazt, and Vecna who admittadly are some rather big players but rather HIgghhhhh up there....there's villains everywhere to throw at players in FR." I would just like to point out a few things that you might have forgot, In DL the Dragons return and lay waste to most of Krynn, and later the queen of Darkness Hides the whole plante so the other gods can't find it. The GH wars engulfed most of the Flanaess and was the closest thing to a World War any fantasy setting has ever suffered (I could befogetting something SO sorry ahead of time if I did). There was also the Flight of Feinds So I have to say that thing do happen in the other 2 settings. As far as evil there is also Tharizdun the evil god behind the Temple of Elemental Evil, also Acererak (Tomb of Horrors), Rary who almost killed of the Circle of Eight, The Scarlt Bother, and don't forget Invid the Undying, (which you can get as is a free down load) "The Seldarine The Dwarvish Pantheon The Gnomish Pantheon The Halfling pantheon Lolth and the Drow Is all available on Toril" And were created first for GH - remember that Vault of the Drow and Lolth where from the Gh setting years before they became part of the FR (all you Dritz Fan - please know your roots). I just being this up to point out where most of this came from, (not to step on peoples toes)
Gnarley_Woodsman 09-25-03, 11:12 AM	Mord would be dealing with El, thus making it a Co7 . Incorrect. The Cirle of Eight is lead by Mordenkainen, he is the nineth "Shadow Member. Get your facts straight by reading more about thie setting. That what I find to be the problem. Everyone has been spoon fed the Forgotten Realms through computer games, and over the top novels! Take some time to read the depth of The World of Greyhawk! Don't make assumptions based on bad information. OR all of you AFRAID to take a look. Maybe after a brief read you may like GH better than the FR? At least be knowledgeable of what you speak. You make a poor debate when you spout false info. Mordenkainen is a crafty fox. Eleminster may be able to take him in the long run, but it'd be one hell of a fight!! This also stands to prove other points of this debate. The FR is way to overrun with Uber-NPCs. Mordenkainen himself is considered a powerful wizard in GH, but not the MOST powerful.
Lashan 09-25-03, 01:23 PM	Are we digging up this old thread again?
Gnarley_Woodsman 09-25-03, 01:25 PM	Sorry. I just had to say something....my first read through. :)
TheDarkestOfAngels 09-25-03, 01:53 PM	Originally posted by Gnarley_Woodsman Incorrect. The Cirle of Eight is lead by Mordenkainen, he is the ninth "Shadow Member. Get your facts straight by reading more about thie setting. That what I find to be the problem. Everyone has been spoon fed the Forgotten Realms through computer games, and over the top novels! Take some time to read the depth of The World of Greyhawk! Don't make assumptions based on bad information. OR all of you AFRAID to take a look. Maybe after a brief read you may like GH better than the FR? At least be knowledgeable of what you speak. You make a poor debate when you spout false info. Mordenkainen is a crafty fox. Eleminster may be able to take him in the long run, but it'd be one hell of a fight!! This also stands to prove other points of this debate. The FR is way to overrun with Uber-NPCs. Mordenkainen himself is considered a powerful wizard in GH, but not the MOST powerful. does it really matter if FR is "overrun" with powerful NPC's? Really? Because it doesn't state anywhere that you have to use them. At all. However, if the DM so wished, there are plenty of powerful influences to choose from. In Greyhawk, there's Iuz and the circle. That's it. FR just has more of everything that makes a campaign good.
Gnarley_Woodsman 09-25-03, 02:15 PM	To me and a lot of others it does make a difference. We like our settings NPC's subtle and gritty/realistic.... Sword comes first in Sword and Sorcery. Magic is awonderful thing and it has it's place. I'm perfectly willing to say "Hey FR is fine for those who like that type o fmagic heavy enviroment" and let it go. But I'm tired of hearing that Greyhawk is "bland" or to "Vanilla". Greyhawk has a lot more to it, but most FR junkies don't take the time to read enough into it before they fallow the crowd and play FR. Then they poke at Greyhawk and say that "Our NPC's kick your NPC's *****es" Or make comments like the ones above that prove that they are either too narrow to allow for other possibilities, or just genuinely lazy...too lazy to read even the smallest article about the Circle of Eight to know its structure. If it's the Forgotten Realms you want to use...so be it. I don't care. Use it, don't use it. Just don't pre-judge other settings or ideas, and out of fear of the unknown attack it. Especially if your not going to take the time to know the material. I have all the FR products ever published. I've read them each in turn. I also have all the Greyhawk Materials from the original chainmail supplements to the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. I do now and always will have the same opinions on the FR. I choose free thinking and imagination over pre pressed spoonfed materials. There is a difference in the concept between these two worlds. They both have merits and flaws. I find that I have fewer gripes about the Greyhawk setting than any other.
Jagermeister 09-25-03, 02:32 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels In Greyhawk, there's Iuz and the circle. That's it. FR just has more of everything that makes a campaign good. You really don't know much about Greyhawk do you... Aside from Iuz and the Circle, there is the Horned Society, Rary and Robilar, The Scarlet Brotherhood, Ivid, Tharizdun, Grazzt, etc etc. I could rant on and on, but I hope you get the point. As far as FR having more of everything that makes a setting good, I guess that would depend more on what you want out of setting than what is factually "better". At any rate, to agree with the Gnarley Woodsman, arguments are best presented when they are well informed. I'm not here to bash FR, I am currently playing in it and I am enjoying it greatly. As I've stated before (in this very thread in fact), play what you like. Arguments over subjectivity are really little more than a waste of time. Nothing is better or worse...it's all just different. To each their own... "Ware and were, friends" heh :devil:
Gnarley_Woodsman 09-25-03, 02:35 PM	quote: -------------------------------------------------- "Ware and were, friends" heh :devil: -------------------------------------------------- May the Axe Grow Great!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-25-03, 03:02 PM	I'm just getting into Greyhawk, partly because of the TOEE PC game. Greyhawk information isn't all that easy to find outside the internet (which admittedly is a good source) simply because much of the old stuff is out of print. The more I actually learn about it, the more I like it. :) My knowledge about it is still very sketchy, though.
Jagermeister 09-25-03, 03:12 PM	Glad you are enjoying it Rinonalyrna. I'm no buff on the subject myself, especially in comparison to the people who frequent Greytalk every Thursday. I have the same problem as you; lack of published materials. Maybe someday we'll have a new GH sourcebook, until then, happy surfing. :devil:
Gnarley_Woodsman 09-25-03, 03:12 PM	The more I actually learn about it, the more I like it. My knowledge about it is still very sketchy, though. That's what I like to hear... :) Good sources for Greyhawk would be: Canonfire! (http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/) Maldins Site (http://www.timebomb.on.ca/denist/greyhawk/) The Living Greyhawk Sites (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/regions/na) If you wish to buy older Greyhawk CHEAP!! (http://svgames.com/downloads-wotc-adndgrhwk.html) Irongate 3e (http://users.chariot.net.au/~mhedges/irongate3e/) These are all sites I visit on a weekly basis. I would also suggest Grodogs website, but it doesn't seem to be functioning today.... Don't forget to tak a look at the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer! Good Gaming! :D
Lashan 09-25-03, 03:32 PM	I've stated before that I am playing in Living Greyhawk. I'm enjoying it immensly. It's good to re-read about Greyhawk as an adult. I never got into it when I was younger, but it is a great setting. It does have depth to it and is lot of fun. Currently, my region is the Gran March. That area has a lot of flavor to it and the regional modules are far better then the core. As for FR, I love it, I love the detail, but I fear that it has changed over the years. Mages used to be rare and magic wasn't on every other tree. The setting has changed its tone and not for the better (IMHO). I still love FR and still play in it, but I find I have to edit all the material to fit *my* version of FR.
SputnikCorp 09-25-03, 09:25 PM	i loved the realms but after years of playing and DMing in it, it's time i moved back to GH. the realms is a rich and well detailed setting, with awesome geography and history. but that's why i won't go back to the realms. far too much is written about it. i need a setting that's forgiving for me to change but to stay true to the fluff (there was so many times i wanted to kill off elminster). i feel i can do this with greyhawk. maybe i'll come back to the realms, say around the fifth edition (elminster would probably be dead by then :rolleyes: )
Gnarley_Woodsman 09-25-03, 09:35 PM	You'd probably have Elminster 2.0 ala "The Search for Spock" at that point. I don't think Greenwood will easily give up his most precious character.
qstor 09-25-03, 09:59 PM	Originally posted by Psionycx But such is the trend of history. As Gygax became disfavored, Greenwood rose in his place. But truthfully even that was after a brief but powerful surge of Dragonlance mania. Gygax was forced out of TSR around '91 and they needed a new setting. The upside to Greyhawk versus Forgotten Realms is that the powerful characters in that world have a tendency to either become gods or move on to other planes. As a result, the setting isn't dominated by anything equivalent to the Chosen of Mystra (or other gods for that matter). Even Mordenkainen & Co prefer to act behind-the-scenes rather than in spectacular cinematic actions designed to upstage the PC's. Right! I like both settings and think each has some good points. I've been playing a lot of RPGA Living Greyhawk so I'm exposed more to that setting now a days. Mike
ENHenry 09-26-03, 11:20 AM	A few pieces of absolutely meaningless trivia: Gary was forced out of TSR in 1984 to 1985, when he lost his final controlling shares to the Blume family. Unearthed Arcana and Isle of the Ape I believe were Gary's final products produced there. Anyone who reads the original 1979 Greyhawk Boxed Set will get a sharp picture that Greyhawk was a highly detailed, intricate setting, one who had detailed information about cultural migrations, weather patterns, and effects of the environment on a society long before similar info was published for Faerun. Elminster may be WotC's favorite FR character, but I remember hearing from Ed that he was fun, but not his favorite. His favorite was either (IIRC) Storm Silverhand, or Mirt the Moneylender - especially since he loves to do voice impersonations of those two at conventions. :p One thing I believe Greyhawk did better than the Realms does is the more delicate balance between the forces of Good and Evil there. Others will disagree, but the machinations of foes like the Horned Society and the Scarlet Brotherhood have dealt SOUND blows to good-aligned peoples in the Flanaess, and the number of truly good, altruistic nations and leaders I can count on one hand; all others are at best staunchly neutral in their goals. Both are immensely fun, but I play Greyhawk for both nostalgia and a grittier feel; I play Forgotten Realms when I want both EPic storytelling and detailed information. I couldn't tell you about a single Inn in Gran March; but I could tell you what's on tap at The Swords Meet in downtown Voonlar - and even tell you what direction the inn faces! :)
darion68 11-07-04, 04:20 AM	you must be new to gaming i started playing in the known world and greyhawk was definitly before the realms
Lashan 11-07-04, 05:37 AM	I can tell you the name of one in in the Gran March.....the Golden Grain Inn. It's from "Against the Cult of the Reptile God". This also fits in great in southern Tasseldale.
Faraer 11-07-04, 03:38 PM	darion 68, this is the easily verifiable chronology: 1967: Ed Greenwood creates the Forgotten Realms, begins writing stories set in it 1973: Gary Gygax begins the Greyhawk Campaign in Lake Geneva 1975: Ed gets hold of D&D, begins Company of Crazed Venturers campaign 1979: Ed's Realms-set articles start appearing in The Dragon 1980: Gary's World of Greyhawk folio is published; its geography is developed for that product 1987: Forgotten Realms Campaign Set published