Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OrderofUhlrik 12-14-07, 12:59 AM	I had a curious thought that hit me after reading the various complaints and gripes about the way that Wizards is taking the Forgotten Realms. The path they're treading seems to irk more than the fair share of many of the common people who visit these boards. We all have our gripes and our complaints and our vitriol and anger. I've seen them shown time and time again. But rarely do I see anyone suggesting a better alternative to any of the suggested changes. The most notable that I have seen was GreenKnight's success in possibly making Torm ascendant and Tyr phased out. Yet, we still rehash the same things, the boards are still full with the thunderous grumbling of discontent. Every new announcement is met with an almost entirely too predictable attack and mockery. So, instead, I suggest we do something constructive. Those of you on the boards with extensive Realmslore knowledge could in fact take the loose ends that Wizards has left us so far in the novel series and sourcebooks and play them out in plausible and (lets just be frank) hopefully profitable ways. If you want the Realms to be cannon-wise a place that you want to play in, try and change things. Apparently nothing is set in stone if we can raise Torm up. So why not try to do something about it? We could collaborate through this thread and PM's and try to present a Realms to the powers that be that may well be more pleasing to the majority of Realms fans. If its dissmissed offhand by Wizards than all the more reason for you to continue in your plans for boycott and the like, if it turns out to work, well then we have accomplished something great. All and all, even it all comes to naught perhaps we can at least keep these boards moving in a positive direction whilst simultaneously giving all of the participants a good place to start with their own personal Realms should the canon not follow. Reply if you like the idea, I'd like to see this happen, and I offer any information I have from my collection of Realms novels (Almost all of the newer ones) and my sourcebooks that cover almost the entirety of 2e and the 3e FRCS.
Stigger 12-14-07, 01:58 AM	I think the idea has merit, but as we've very little to go on, I'm not sure how much input could be really given. We've got precious little to go on as to whats in store for 4e, and I have to admit, what little I do know isn't something I want to dwell upon. I find the changes to the pantheon running counter to my perception of the Realms, so it's incredibly difficult to be objective as to how things could work out better, since I'm opposed to the baseline idea of it. I'd be more supportive of the loose ends bit, but I'm a little unclear of the sorts of things you have in mind. Not being a reader of the novels, can't be of much help there.
OrderofUhlrik 12-14-07, 02:37 AM	I realize we have little to go on. That's where logical conjecture and the like would come in handy. My main premise is that we know the state of the realms as is right now. DR 1375 if I remember correctly. We all know about the GHotR. Lets assume that the events within all of the sources and novels to this point are cannon. Now, what I propose is we take what we have and provide the designers and the less vocal board members with an ideal Realms for Fourth Edition based on what we have; turning that into logical, probable, and as I said profitable conclusions for the Realms. If we don't like the changes, we should damn well give an alternative. If we're going to give one, why not do it right? We can then back it up with petitions and uploaded video testimony, anything that shows Wizards that our ideas have merit. Does that help?
Fingoldfin 12-14-07, 02:45 AM	Your heart is in the right place, but I don't care how they 'explain' the changes. I don't like the changes. The changes make the 20+ box sets and 100+ novels/accessories that I own obsolete. They are all completely incompatible with 4e. Why would I want to limit myself to the few Realms books that they will put out in 4e when I have so much more to choose from?
johnkretzer 12-14-07, 02:57 AM	Well they could have made the changes more profitable by just waiting for the Spellplague to hit...atleast alot of us would have gotten the books then and probably have converted to 4th edition...and actualy have useful infomation and mechanics till the Spell plague hit.
msatran 12-14-07, 03:08 AM	Yeah. The truth is, even with a ten year time jump, it requires me to run about six more campaigns to even REACH 1385.
Stigger 12-14-07, 03:48 AM	Well, honestly were it within my ability, I'd avoid the Spellplague entirely. I've heard that the new magic system is supposedly incompatible with the Weave, but to be honest, I find that a load of horse manure. For the new magic system, supposedly based upon these wands, orbs, and staves, I don't see why they couldn't have done something creative with the mention of the Universal Spell Component (USC), which was mentioned as being sought after in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical. Why not say that someone finally figured it out, say an ardent Mystran cleric/wizard, who rather than spark off a mage's war with holding its secrets for his allies, just decided to release the knowledge of it during a mage fair, or by going to various city's wizard's guild meetings and spreading it there. What wizard or sorcerer in their right mind wouldn't convert to their use, and instead rely on the now obsolete component methods? Hells, you could even say that with the USC, the line between wizard and sorcerer blurred since it harmonized with the magical energies in the user, making such distinctions obsolete and meaningless. Maybe there was something about it that made these magical 'traditions' I've heard about logical occurances due to the way they interacted with the mage, the component, and the Weave. Had they taken this sort of route, Mystra certainly wouldn't need to die to adapt to it. Make the change a societal movement, have the mages of the world make that shift of their own accord, and avoid yet another RSE. That could have made the transition over to 4e much more interesting to me had they done something like that, and far more enjoyable as well. You could discard a lot of the old lore about magic even, making it obsolete in a logical way, but still there as a historical reference, without 'nuking' the setting. As to doing away with the old-guard high level mages, just have them blow themselves up in their experimentations, have them kill each other in the early days of the time jump trying to make sure no one but them has the secrets to the USC, have them ganked by the Chosen or the Shadowstaves or something along those lines for trying to impede magical advancement... which could even explain why a lot of the Chosen got trimmed, having them die in the process of defending the USC and its spread. That could have been a great way to go, giving them real purpose and meaning in their deaths, sacrificing themselves to give birth to a new age of magic. As to the gods issue... well, I don't know if I have much to add beyond utterly disagreeing with the idea, as I think it takes away a lot of the flavor they add to the various cultures and areas they influence. It did a great service to me as a DM in helping me to understand what each culture valued and strove for, giving a lot of nuance and flavor to otherwise brief descriptions of the less well developed areas. I mean, really, would it have been so hard to choose a few religions to really develop, mostly based around the likelihood of their clerics to go adventuring, and then given us a paragraph or two on the rest who don't matter so much to adventurers, so that those of us who use them in non-PC ways can still have them there as a guide to a culture? I suppose I think that they could have accomplished most of their goals in a much better way, that was much more consistent with the history and flavor of the Realms, and that them taking what I consider the easy way out just doesn't give me much confidence in their ability to pull off the 4e Realms as anything I really want to explore.
msatran 12-14-07, 04:30 AM	Plus, the nebulous nature of the time jump makes it ridiculously unfair. We have no time to prepare for anything. I have about 13 campaigns that all need to end by January 1 2009 to even have a CHANCE of converting to 4th edition.
Hawkfeather 12-14-07, 08:28 AM	Ok, I liked the idea so I will try to put my thoughts here. Mind you that English is not my native language, so sorry if I won't make myself clearly or if I'll sound harsh (that's not my intention!). I'm not against changes per si, but these changes in the Realms (not 4th ed game mechanics) aren't making much sense. Not the results (less gods, no Weave, changes in cosmology, less "powerful" NPCs), but the way they're doing the changes. In my opinion, these changes could be achieved by more interesting ways and more "rooted" in the vast and wonderful Realmslore acumulated over time. Here's the way I'd make these changes: I'd use the Lathander's New Dawn Cataclysm (sorry, but I can't remember the proper name now). I'd make him trying to reformulate the Pantheon once again (or accumulate power by absorving other portfolios) and, due to his actions, cause these "terrible" consequences to the Realms. I didn't think on the exact details (exactly how this would change magic, which and how gods would die/change, etc); this is just the overall idea. I think the "Amaunator heresy" could be the tip of the iceberg for those events. I would like to see this, because the trigger to these RSE won't be some evil god plot. It would be exciting and non-orthodox to see a good deity cause suffering and chaos (no intentions) in the process to trying to do some greater good. And are hints of this (Faiths and Avatars, Power of Faerūn) for a good time. This is just my opinion. I'm not saying this is the only good way to make the changes. Hope it helps!
Alediran 12-14-07, 08:31 AM	That is actually another good way to justify the changes.
Hawkfeather 12-14-07, 09:43 AM	That is actually another good way to justify the changes. Thanks, hermano!!:D
Alediran 12-14-07, 10:14 AM	Thanks, hermano!!:D No hay problema, saludos desde Buenos Aires. Traduction: No problem, cheers from Buenos Aires.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 11:09 AM	So, instead, I suggest we do something constructive. Those of you on the boards with extensive Realmslore knowledge could in fact take the loose ends that Wizards has left us so far in the novel series and sourcebooks and play them out in plausible and (lets just be frank) hopefully profitable ways. "Profitable?" Not sure what you mean here, but only WotC can see economic profit from the Forgotten Realms setting. As for making more palatable fan-versions of the Realms, people are already doing that, actually.:) Also, I've been saying for a long time that I personally plan to continue to make *my* Realms (the Realms in my head) my own setting, and I'm not using many of the recent official developments.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 11:12 AM	Your heart is in the right place, but I don't care how they 'explain' the changes. Same here, sorry. Also, I think trying to change the minds at WotC would be a futile effort. Rich has said more than once that they are sticking to their course. Also, stuff like petitions are pretty worthless in any situation (it's possible to make and use a program that generates hundreds of fictional signatures, for example).
OrderofUhlrik 12-14-07, 12:19 PM	Profitable in the sense that they are popular and people would pay to play in that kind of setting. As well, I full well realize people are already doing that, the thing I'm trying to get at is if we can convince Wizards to incorporate the ideas that the fanbase wants for the new Realms rather than simply having all of us break off to do our own Realms that are no longer supported by Wizards, then we've accomplished something truly noteworthy. I know in a sense that doesn't matter, that as a DM you shape your own world and all, but it just makes it easier if your Realms is close to canon, less to remember and all that. My point is, we've been pointing out everything they're doing wrong and tearing down all the new changes and the designers. Most of the time people just will not respond to non-constructive criticism until something concrete slaps them in the face. (Like 4e FR flopping for example). However if we can put together something constructive, and then show that it works, show that people like it; then maybe we can actually have an impact on the future of the setting and make it something we can all enjoy. If not, my idea was that the work we've put in this together would be an amazing starting point for any of our personal Realms that we'd continue with after the introduction of 4E. The problem I'm realizing is that nobody seems to care that much. I realize that none of you like the changes WotC is implementing, so you don't have to tell me again. What I'm saying is, let's do something about it rather than sitting here and tearing it down metaphorically and then killing it with boycott. Its possible we can help make it a success, and if not then at least we've done something positive that many of us and others can benefit from. I thought that some of the people on the boards would be up for it. I've seen the Elven Netbook and Kara Tur: Redux threads have alot of work and effort put into them, so I thought the community might be willing to undertake another such project by creating a Fourth Edition Forgotten Realms that is more or less something we can all get behind. That's what I'm trying to do, that's what I think would be something positive for all of us. I don't know, I just hoped some of the major players here on the board would like the idea.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 12:26 PM	I don't know, I just hoped some of the major players here on the board would like the idea. It's not that we don't like the idea. It comes down to this: How many times does Rich have to say that their course is set in stone? It seems like the idea about Torm (from Greenknight) will be incorporated into the Realms, but that should be considered an anomaly, and something that happened thanks to luck and not just great arguments (Rich said clearly that Greenknights idea meshed well with plans the FR design team already had). It's not that I'm pooh-poohing your idea, and I do think your heart is in the right place. But deep-down, I'm a pragmatist. The Spellplague will happen. It's possible that someday the Realms will be reverted back to its current state, but I can only see that happening if the 4E setting sells very poorly. And as I mentioned before, things like online petitions are pretty much worthless.
Rauric 12-14-07, 12:39 PM	Some ideas on how to keep NPCs around? Let's make them be on the Planes when the disaster hits. Or just have them escape just in time but in a weakened condition. The whole god thing is tricky. You might be able to do whole campaigns where the pcs seek ways to revive their gods. Gods I like will remain in the end. I also believe tha Mystra and the Weave will eturn someday. I really cannot give any real, solid answers until I see that Camapign book in Aug.
The Ubbergeek 12-14-07, 01:50 PM	For the naysayers... The Spellplague may be like the name implies... a catatstrophic but temporary event, and the planet may return to the normal schedule later. in FONS, the earth will not be as it used to be, but in the second serie and all, it's implied the earth is settling and healing to a point.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 01:55 PM	The Spellplague may be like the name implies... a catatstrophic but temporary event, and the planet may return to the normal schedule later. Well, there's no denying that there are significant, permanent changes going on here (and that is exactly how the designers have intended it, for better or for worse). in FONS, the earth will not be as it used to be, but in the second serie and all, it's implied the earth is settling and healing to a point. OK, I don't know what you are talking about here, or how it relates to the Realms setting.
OrderofUhlrik 12-14-07, 02:02 PM	I didn't really envision it as a petition per se, I believed it would be possible to post links to video testimony from players and groups. I live on a college campus and out of everyone I've spoken to, nobody understands alot of the FR changes. My thought was to pitch some of the ideas we came up with here and get reactions. I coud concievably get several interviews done on my own. I've got the video experience as I worked for a documentarian for a year and I know how to edit it and post it and whatnot. But I just don't have the Realmslore and 3rd edition savvy to do it all alone, or else I would have just presented the finished product to you guys for judgement. I do however have the majority of the new novels and nigh all of the 2e products for D&D and have access to those I do not have. Besides I wouldn't presume to think my visions for the Realms would make alot of sense or even please the majority of people. However, I thought with the help of this community, which seems to be a good representation of D&D gamers from many different locations. But you may be right, even if we came up with great ideas, had testimonials and petitions to back them up, its possible and even probable that Wizards may ignore them. Its just with so much negativity on the boards I thought maybe we could do something other than just complain. That's not to say that everyone here is just a bunch of naysayers who yell foul at everything. But there has been plenty of negitavism and no real attempts to do anything about it. (Besides the Torm thing) Rino, I guess you have a point. If they refuse to budge, they refuse to budge. I just had some hope for this idea, thought it could do something positive for the community and maybe even the setting. If the consensus is that there's no hope then I'll just let this die. I just thought we might be able to do something.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 02:14 PM	I didn't really envision it as a petition per se, I believed it would be possible to post links to video testimony from players and groups. I live on a college campus and out of everyone I've spoken to, nobody understands alot of the FR changes. My thought was to pitch some of the ideas we came up with here and get reactions. I coud concievably get several interviews done on my own. I've got the video experience as I worked for a documentarian for a year and I know how to edit it and post it and whatnot. I'd participate, but who'd make a video of me?;) But I just don't have the Realmslore and 3rd edition savvy to do it all alone, or else I would have just presented the finished product to you guys for judgement. I do however have the majority of the new novels and nigh all of the 2e products for D&D and have access to those I do not have. Understandable.:) Speaking for myself, though, I'm not especially rules-savvy either. Realmslore, however, I could help out with. Rino, I guess you have a point. If they refuse to budge, they refuse to budge. I just had some hope for this idea, thought it could do something positive for the community and maybe even the setting. If the consensus is that there's no hope then I'll just let this die. I just thought we might be able to do something. I think it could still be done--there's nothing stopping anyone. And like I said, I could help. But I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that it's highly unlikely that we'd be able to impress WotC enough to get the designers to change their minds about the course they've set on, especially with Rich having said more than once, "No, we have to go forward with this." I'm not saying this to be negative, I'm saying it to be honest.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 02:21 PM	Just to clarify--we might be able to affect minor changes, or how the eventual changes will be implemented. But if, for example, we were to argue that the Spellplague shouldn't happen? That wouldn't work, barring some amazing miracle. In my opinion it's all a matter of scope, and being "realistic".
MerrikCale 12-14-07, 03:11 PM	Maybe the 4e stuff will tank and we'll get a Dallas moment. You know Bobby Ewing in the shower. Maybe this 4e stuff will be a bad dream by Storm.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 05:27 PM	Maybe the 4e stuff will tank and we'll get a Dallas moment. You know Bobby Ewing in the shower. Maybe this 4e stuff will be a bad dream by Storm. -Heh, I've already mentioned that WotC better stick to their guns if they're serious about all these changes, and that it all had better not be all Elminster's overactive imagination, or an alternative world in one of Savras' crystal balls. -Anyway, Uhlrik, what I suggest is that if you want to start a project, why not "plot" an alternative timeline, a "What If?" FRCS, if you will. Decide upon a year, incorporate some of the elements of AGHotR and 4e FR, mesh it all with some original ideas from contributors, and violla, people who don't want such a drastic change to the Realms have an alternative FR setting.
Alediran 12-14-07, 05:56 PM	-Anyway, Uhlrik, what I suggest is that if you want to start a project, why not "plot" an alternative timeline, a "What If?" FRCS, if you will. Decide upon a year, incorporate some of the elements of AGHotR and 4e FR, mesh it all with some original ideas from contributors, and violla, people who don't want such a drastic change to the Realms have an alternative FR setting. That's exactly what I want to do with the website I'm slowly making.
johnkretzer 12-14-07, 05:57 PM	That's exactly what I want to do with the website I'm slowly making. How is that going by the way? Need any help? Send me a PM.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 06:09 PM	That's exactly what I want to do with the website I'm slowly making. -Boom, there you go. Use this thread as a springboard and clearinghouse for ideas, then.
MerrikCale 12-14-07, 10:56 PM	I still like my Bobby Ewing idea:(
OrderofUhlrik 12-15-07, 12:20 AM	Merrik, that's a dandy idea, unfortunately I wasn't really going for this thread to be focused on doomsaying but rather constructive suggestions/ideas for the Forgotten Realms in the future. Not trying to be an ass by any means, but I don't want this to degenerate into: "I hate Wizards!; Die 4E Die!; The Realms are going to the Hells in a handbasket!" That's perfectly fine if that's how you feel, but we've all seen it alot lately. What I earnestly want from this thread however is something more akin to: "I don't like the ascendancy of Shar that is taking place in the Realms now, my suggestion is that with the death of Mystra and the Weave Shar loses some of her divine power due to her attatchment to the Shadow Weave." (That is just an example and not really a serious thought/suggestion of my own) So, if some of you are up for that, we can start trying to do this. I'm not exactly sure how to start myself, but I'm open for any and all ideas/suggestions any of you have. I hope for this to be a community effort and I wouldn't dare dismiss any of your ideas out of hand. Ultimately, I think we should either vote on each suggestion that has merit or for efficiency's sake, elect final editors that will iron out the kinks in noteworthy suggestions and/or separate the suggestions that are unlikely to be implemented or otherwise judged to be ridiculous or unpopular. What I need to know now through PM's or replies are interested posters in contributing/editing/judging. Then, we can decide how we'll do this, and then we can get to work. Anyone, feel free to post suggestions or ideas in the meantime, I'm all ears and will be saving them should you wish to send them in PM form rather than a reply to this post. But I'm ready to move this into a more realistic phase if anyone else is up to do so as well. I'll be anxiously awaiting replies.
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 01:02 AM	Not trying to be an ass by any means, but I don't want this to degenerate into: "I hate Wizards!; Die 4E Die!; The Realms are going to the Hells in a handbasket!" -The majority of us are a little more articulated than that. :) So, if some of you are up for that, we can start trying to do this. I'm not exactly sure how to start myself, but I'm open for any and all ideas/suggestions any of you have. -First place to start is exactly that: Hows that for metaphorical and philosophical. The first thing we need to decide is when the timeline is. Do we want to edit things 1374 on? 1384 on? 1385 on?
Rauric 12-15-07, 01:08 AM	I am not a Shar fan, and it is not because of her animosity towrds Mystra. I dont care for her much either. I just hate that a god who only wants the universe to die is so powerful. Meh. Anyway I hope that Mask somehow becomes Lord of Illusion, and Intrigue and that he retains his current portfolio. I want to see the God of Shadow stick it to the queen of Darkness and Emos. I hope they retool Bane a bit so he is not as much of a tool.
OrderofUhlrik 12-15-07, 01:09 AM	Of course you are more articulate (Even though two of those are direct quotes from Green Elven Vampire :P) than that, but that was just a paraphrasing that didn't force me to directly quote everybody. Everybody is so nitpicky about semantics on me >.< Heh, either way, I'm open to the consesus on this issue as well. My personal thought was that we could start with either 1375 or 1385 depending upon what the majority of the interested parties want to go with. As I've stressed, I am unable, nor would I wish to do this on my own. I'd be glad to take a leading role, to be the conductor, but you guys have all of the true talent as far is this is concerned. I'll help whenever possible and do the interviews and postings and editing of any video or anything else you guys send me. I'm glad to do alot of the work that isn't necessarily the creative process, I do want to assist in the creative process, I just realize some of you are better suited. So, what's your opinion Karsus?
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 01:45 AM	Of course you are more articulate (Even though two of those are direct quotes from Green Elven Vampire :P) than that, but that was just a paraphrasing that didn't force me to directly quote everybody. Everybody is so nitpicky about semantics on me >.< -I did say the majority. ;) So, what's your opinion Karsus? -Personally, I'd start in 1375, and work our way to 1385, when the 43 FRCS is supposed to be set, or whatever the 4e date it (I'm presuming it's not 100 years in the future, of course). Interesting plot developments, such as, say, Mulhorand and Unther finishing their war, can be included as we go along. Plot developments that don't make too much sense, or are generally regarded as "poor" (such as what happened regarding Kiaransalee, for example), can be marked out.
DreamStalker 12-15-07, 02:14 AM	I have no problem with what you are attempting to do, but by and large I do not have a great interest in working on a consensus project for adapting the future FR. Just as I really didn't have an interest in working on a consensus project for the Elven.netbook and the Kara Tur update projects here. If I have something worthwhile I might contribute, but largely I focus most of my efforts on my campaigns specifically. My campaigns often differ to a degree from what others do, so oftentimes my stuff is less than spectacular for others' uses. As far as 4ed goes, most of my campaigns will take place in the 3ed timeframes just before the dozen or so RSE's. It is a good starting point for me with lots of information that I am already familiar with. If I bring in an RSE I can make my characters central and mold the world around that. For stuff I am developing it will be player driven. For other things I will likely just steal other peoples ideas (for areas my players are not in if I want to update them for some reason). If I come up with something, I'll send it your way though:)
Stigger 12-15-07, 06:30 AM	I started working on how I plan to integrate the new system of magic into my own campaign, going region by region as to what effects I think it might have. So far I've gotten the starting point, going with my earlier concept of the UCS being discovered, and four regions worked out. It doesn't go into that much detail, as its just supposed to be a thumbnail sketch for now, but if anyone is interested, I'll run it up the flagpole. As a warning though, its based on some of my players characters for its foundations, as I would much prefer them to be responsible for breaking the world, as it were, rather than using a deus ex NPC to do it. I'm definitely ignoring a lot of the current canon Realms (Shadow Weave, no Uber-Shar, Mystra and Helm are still around, no reborn Netheril, etc.) so it probably wouldn't be all that useful for people who use that sort of stuff.
Alediran 12-15-07, 09:02 AM	Stigg, I already thought about a way to implement the changes of 4th ed to another storyline that gaves the same results without killing gods. One of those things is end the plot hook about Mystra trying to subsume te Shadow Weave, This makes her a TN godess (who still has NG quirks because of Midnight) and making the weave a blanket that is everywhere (no more Wild & DMZ). Thanks to that renewed power, a cabal of wizards who follow Mystra's dogma discovers a new way to cast spells (thanks to the reformed weave), being Mystra's followers they start teaching this new way of making magic.
MarkusTay63 12-15-07, 09:06 AM	I was planning on doing something along these lines anyway, AFTER we know more about 4e FR, As it stands, we can't possibly build upon something we know nearly nothing about. What I plan to do, most likely through my own web page here (if they ever get that part of Gleemax up and running), is create a site that converts 4e rules into the 3e world. Along the lines of what Alediran is doing, creating an alternate reality, but using the new rules in the old world. I personally feel that many players won't be switching to the new rules solely because WotC (mistakenly) says you won't be able to convert easily. I plan on doing the 'impossible' conversion. :D I happen to like most of what I'm hearing about the new rules, and so far each edition has been better then the last, IMHO. However, I really don't care for the things I'm hearing about in the new setting. I may use this thread as well for that - so far I like some of your ideas. The Spellplague is going to happen - that's what is causing the changes to the magic system - but exactly WHAT the Spellplague is can be modified by us to create a world that still has many of the elements we like about OFR. A new Dawn Cataclysm, an alternate reality merge, the Spellplague being an actual magical illness, or even some sort of 'World War', with the Zentarrim and/or Thay using hundreds, perhaps thousands, of mages to attack and kill important people all over Faerun. Maybe they teamed up, or maybe they went to war with each other, with the Zhents targeting Thayan enclaves. Either way, their would be much magic and nastiness flying about. Maybe the Drow invade Halrua in force while this is going on, and another mega-magical war breaks out. Perhaps one or several of these events occur, and Mystra becomes distracted by the sudden massive usage of the Weave. Maybe this is what gave Cyric the opportunty to kill her - maybe Shar and/or Cyric was behind all the wars and chaos that suddenly erupts in every corner of the Realms, just to provide the distraction. Who knows? Maybe they even pulled Lolth in on the deal! The idea is to provide a SLEW of alternatives for DMs to work with, and each group can figure out what parts happened in THEIR FR. In the end, my goal is to provide people with a springboard of Time slots to take off from, starting with 1380 DR. People will decide if latter events happened or not selectively, and weather they want to keep Mystra or not. Of course, everyone can already do this on their own, but if we use this thread, and perhaps a few fan-sites, we can provide enough alternatives for everyone to find their own way in a 4e world. We can even come up with ways people can 'play-through' the Spellplague, as written, without using the time-jump, whatever it may be. WotC does NOT plan on doing this, so we have free reign to come up with stuff from 1385 to <new 4e year>, which I think many CURRENT fans would prefer. But first, as I said, we need to know a little more about what they officially plan for the Realms, so we can work our own things out. We have been promised news in January now - we were also promised stuff in Nov. AND Dec. that NEVER saw fruition. The fact that they can't even come up with enough material fror the online version of Dragon magazine is just plain sad, considering Paizo was able to come up with a wonderful print edition EVERY month. Also, the sorry state of Gleemax gives me very little hope that ANY of their 4e plans will work. So far, EVERY SINGLE THING we were promised back at Gencon has proven to be 'vaporware', and it appears that they simply do not have the talent, were-withal, and technical expertise to pull ANY of it off. It's going to be an interesting year, that's for sure. :bored:
johnkretzer 12-15-07, 09:47 AM	I was planning on doing something along these lines anyway, AFTER we know more about 4e FR, As it stands, we can't possibly build upon something we know nearly nothing about. What I plan to do, most likely through my own web page here (if they ever get that part of Gleemax up and running), is create a site that converts 4e rules into the 3e world. Along the lines of what Alediran is doing, creating an alternate reality, but using the new rules in the old world. I personally feel that many players won't be switching to the new rules solely because WotC (mistakenly) says you won't be able to convert easily. I plan on doing the 'impossible' conversion. :D Actualy it isn't the new rules(though I have many concerns like Talent trees(sorry I want to play a rogue not a combat rogue or a social rogue), the new skill systems(if anything like Star Wars Saga it is a giant step back), etc.) but all of my concerns I would be willing to give it a chance. The problem is the flavor changes...sorry why should I spend lots of money on it when I already of a system that works pretty well with the flavor that I want. I might or might not convert to 4th. I do know I will never buy anything with the FR logo on it again unless it also has the word Classics. My Realms is now officialy very different from the 'Canon' Realms.
dimonic 12-15-07, 11:53 AM	-The majority of us are a little more articulated than that. :) No need to get all bent out of shape .. budum-bum...tssh.
Stigger 12-15-07, 12:17 PM	I was thinking of incorporating the idea that Mystra 'tightened' the Weave up to reduce the space that the Shadow Weave operated in, squeezing it out of existance by not providing any space for it to exist in. That was going to be the vehicle by which I explained how these non-caster classes got a hold of quasi-magical abilities all of a sudden... kinda like finding a quintessence infusion constantly flowing through your pattern, which sparks a mini-quasi-psuedo-awakening.
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 01:34 PM	I plan on doing the 'impossible' conversion. :D -Aha! So, you're going to be the generic "nerdy person" that I said somewhere else was going to figure out how to do a streamlined 3e --> 4e conversion! :) No need to get all bent out of shape .. budum-bum...tssh. -Har har har! With all my points of articulation, it's hard not to. I'm like a Marvel Legend. :P
OrderofUhlrik 12-15-07, 03:30 PM	Okay DR 1375 it is. That gives us plenty of material to work with and alot of work to do. This is an open call then, anybody who has any ideas for Realms events that occured during DR 1375 post them here or PM me and I'll post them myself in case you for some reason would prefer not to have your name necessarily attatched to an idea. Personally, I felt the way Kiaransalee's death was done was good for a novel storyline, but rather trite and contrived for a D&D setting. The death of a god by a spell? I realize that of course mortals have previously been able to steal divinity with a spell, but literally erase one's existence? :S My thought was that it could be possible that Kiaransalee could have in fact made a similar move to Lloth and attempted to take out Ghaunadaur but unlike the more powerful Lloth, was in fact overwhelmed. The rebels and outcasts portfolios would seem to fit with Kiaransalee as she is a rebel against Lloth and an outcast from her original world. Ghaunadaur's defeat of Kiaransalee and appropriation of some of her power would then allow him to wound Lloth. My seconded reasoning for Kiaransalee to lash out at Ghaunadaur is twofold. If Lloth was able to underestimate him, then surely Kiaransalee would be capable of the same mistake. Secondly, in her desperate paranoia over an assault by Orcus she may have made the rash decision to assault Ghaunadaur in order to gain the necessary strength to resist Orcus and possibly destroy him yet again. That's just a thought I had for a more proper demise for Kiaransalee. It could even coincide with the High Magic that erased her name. That would be oddly poetic justice after her proclomation she gave after defeating Orcus. The novel portrayal of Kiaransalee's worshipers going insane can be explained as their feeling the subsumation of Kiaransalee by the Elder Eye. I don't know, just me hopefully starting the process.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-15-07, 06:52 PM	-First place to start is exactly that: Hows that for metaphorical and philosophical. The first thing we need to decide is when the timeline is. Do we want to edit things 1374 on? 1384 on? 1385 on? I would set the date at 1374 or 1375. But that's just me.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-15-07, 06:59 PM	That's just a thought I had for a more proper demise for Kiaransalee. It could even coincide with the High Magic that erased her name. That would be oddly poetic justice after her proclomation she gave after defeating Orcus. The novel portrayal of Kiaransalee's worshipers going insane can be explained as their feeling the subsumation of Kiaransalee by the Elder Eye. I don't know, just me hopefully starting the process. I, uh, would rather keep Kiaransalee around. But again, that's just me.:) Are we going to reduce the amount of gods the way WotC is? If it were up to me, I'd just keep the vast majority of them around.
OrderofUhlrik 12-15-07, 08:26 PM	Well, I didn't really mean that my suggestion was to be the end all be all. That was just my sort of start to the process and all. As to your point, I was just going with the idea that I doubted Wizards would go back and uncanonize a novel they've already published, so the logical jump was to make Kiaransalee's demise make more sense in any way possible. However, it could also be changed to say that some of her clergy or other worshipers were unaffected but the shock to her divinity caused her to remove herself from the sava game. As I said, my post was just an idea. If you have a counter-suggestion I'm all ears. If you have a suggestion for any other event in DR 1375 I'm open for it too. I'm just trying to be pragmatic as you said earlier in the thread. I doubt they'll go back and change the overall details of any novel they've put out. However if we can work within the events they've given us and change them in a manner that allows them to retain the semblance of the story they've already provided then our retcons may be more readily accepted should this be successful. However, I am personally open to any and all suggestions. The big thing now is, is there anyone else who really likes this idea enough to be the "judges" if you will. Its not that I'm not capable of making decisions, I just don't really feel as if I have the experience and expertise to really be the sole final say on this compilation. So if anyone else is interested in helping me with that, a reply or a PM to that effect would be much appreciated. Once again, any ideas/suggestions about the Realms starting with the events in DR 1374-5 is welcomed and encouraged!
MerrikCale 12-15-07, 08:44 PM	Are we going to reduce the amount of gods the way WotC is? If it were up to me, I'd just keep the vast majority of them around. I'd make more
Alediran 12-15-07, 09:16 PM	Here goes my first contribution: During the latest stages of Seiveril's Crusade the lost Artblade of Cormanthor was found again by the Sun Elf Wizard Alediran with the help of his friends. It was hidden in a demiplane where it's last owner, Jodsidiah Starym, was guarding it until a worthy succesor could retrieve it. Alediran was found worthy and Josidiah's spirit at last passed to Arvandor.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-15-07, 09:26 PM	If you have a suggestion for any other event in DR 1375 I'm open for it too. I'm just trying to be pragmatic as you said earlier in the thread. Understood.:) If we're doing this to try to influence WotC (and I'm not sure if that's still our goal, to be honest), obviously we can't just keep all the gods. If it's just a alternate fan-made timeline, I *would* keep the old gods and perhaps add more, as MerrikCale suggested. The big thing now is, is there anyone else who really likes this idea enough to be the "judges" if you will. Its not that I'm not capable of making decisions, I just don't really feel as if I have the experience and expertise to really be the sole final say on this compilation. So if anyone else is interested in helping me with that, a reply or a PM to that effect would be much appreciated. I'd be happy to help you out. I like Alediran's idea too.
MarkusTay63 12-15-07, 10:39 PM	We still don't know enough about what will happen, all we have is a few lousy facts* that were thrown at us at the end of the GHotR. If this thread 's purpose is to make suggestions of what we would like to see happen, then the designers can just go through all the 4e threads between Gencon and the release of the GHotR - there were some VERY creative ideas there by many people (this was back before we actually knew what the Spellplague was). If the purpose is to create an alternate timeline, then why even bother with most of the events after 1375 DR? I would start the alternate one at 1380 or so, because that is when some of the 'bad' things begin to happen. Another alternative would be to use 4e characters in the 3e Realms. I'm not just talking about rules here - I'm talking about having characters from the new setting travel BACK to 1384 or '85 and changinging things. In that way, BOTH timelines could be used in a single campaign. This is a re-curring theme in Sci-Fi and comics. We could have heroes from FR's Age of Apocalypse travel back to the good 'ol days and begin creating some of those very traditions the Realms winds up with in their time, thereby altering the timeline away from their own 'dark future'. It could be cool... * I say "lousy" because of the sloppy way they were delivered to us, not because of content. Some of the events might have actually been 'cool' and 'awesome', had we a decent story to go with them.
LowCypher 12-15-07, 11:27 PM	Hey, I could Help! A devil's advocate if you will...:)
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 11:59 PM	If the purpose is to create an alternate timeline, then why even bother with most of the events after 1375 DR? -I chose 1375 because that's the current timeline (I think- they seriously effed up the timeline by including those extra ten years in AGHotR without actually advancing the timeline), and because a lot of the events that are generally considered "bad (Such as with Kiaransalee, as has been mentioned, for instance) begin around this time.
OrderofUhlrik 12-16-07, 02:30 AM	Hey, I could Help! A devil's advocate if you will...:) I'd be glad for any help, but please explain why you are a devil's advocate?
OrderofUhlrik 12-16-07, 02:33 AM	Understood.:) If we're doing this to try to influence WotC (and I'm not sure if that's still our goal, to be honest), obviously we can't just keep all the gods. If it's just a alternate fan-made timeline, I *would* keep the old gods and perhaps add more, as MerrikCale suggested. I'd be happy to help you out. I like Alediran's idea too. You're right, and that is a good question. Do we want to even try to influence WotC? Or would it just make more sense to join forces with people like Alediran and Markus and just start an alternative timeline right now? I'm up for either as I'm loving the thought of either creation at this point. This has got me excited, hell I'm even talking people into getting me AGHotR for Christmas now so I can really do this right. >.< Heh. Rino, seeing as you're the only person to step forward and offer to really help shoulder the burden of "leadership" I guess I'll just ask you, do we want to start a new timeline, or do we want to try and sway WotC opinion? I think we could possibly accomplish both, but the influencing would probably be on the small scale you described earlier in the thread. But hell, I'm up for either one as I'm just excited on creating this compilation at this point.
OrderofUhlrik 12-16-07, 02:37 AM	Sorry for the triple post but... I just want to advertise once more, any and all interested parties who have ideas for 4e or the Realms in general starting with DR 1374-5 please post them here or PM me with the details, I'm more than happy to listen to/post any and all ideas. I do believe however we are ready to start taking ideas to start a timeline.
Alediran 12-16-07, 09:46 AM	Here goes my first contribution: During the latest stages of Seiveril's Crusade the lost Artblade of Cormanthor was found again by the Sun Elf Wizard Alediran with the help of his friends. It was hidden in a demiplane where it's last owner, Jodsidiah Starym, was guarding it until a worthy succesor could retrieve it. Alediran was found worthy and Josidiah's spirit at last passed to Arvandor. As I posted before. Once I have the website working I'll begin to copy all data we have. Including the Elven Netbook, as a webook (I plan on having many of these on the site)
msatran 12-16-07, 09:55 AM	1376 is a better date. The stingers following Obox ob is the only thing listed in that year, and quite frankly, that's a null-event. You really could go all the way up to 1381 and not have anything suck. The Year of the Starving is a year I like because all it does is create a famine. That's an interesting roleplaying backdrop WITHOUT being obnoxious. Now your good aligned characters have to cast Create Food in the morning, and give the remains to peasants. That's pretty cool, actually. I wish they had stopped there.
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 12:36 PM	Rino, seeing as you're the only person to step forward and offer to really help shoulder the burden of "leadership" I guess I'll just ask you, do we want to start a new timeline, or do we want to try and sway WotC opinion? I think we could possibly accomplish both, but the influencing would probably be on the small scale you described earlier in the thread. -Nothing we say or do is going to change what they've leaked out, and hinted towards. Only the most minor of details are a maybe. In my opinion, it's best to trudge on a "rewrite as necessary" regardless of "them".
Fingoldfin 12-16-07, 03:44 PM	Sorry for the triple post but... I just want to advertise once more, any and all interested parties who have ideas for 4e or the Realms in general starting with DR 1374-5 please post them here or PM me with the details, I'm more than happy to listen to/post any and all ideas. I do believe however we are ready to start taking ideas to start a timeline. Why not focus on updating by region. A good example of this is the Lake of Steam. In the year 1372 DR there is a stalemate between Mintar and Saelmur. Did they ever go to war? Did Tethyr get involved? What about the Tethyrian troops massed in Ithal Pass? Did the Zhents ever take control of Yhep? Bane worshipers are influencing nobles in the city, and there is a Banite temple in the Dalelost ruins near Yhep. I think advancing the time line by answering local questions is easier than trying to make sense of the trash in the last two pages of GHotR. Each person could choose a region or group to update and set up a thread to pitch ideas and get feedback. Start each thread in 1375 and have a title like Lake of Steam, northern shore. If this approach appeals to you I would be willing to update the northern shore of the Lake of Steam. :)
dimonic 12-16-07, 03:46 PM	Heh, either way, I'm open to the consesus on this issue as well. My personal thought was that we could start with either 1375 or 1385 depending upon what the majority of the interested parties want to go with. As I've stressed, I am unable, nor would I wish to do this on my own. I'd be glad to take a leading role, to be the conductor, but you guys have all of the true talent as far is this is concerned. I'll help whenever possible and do the interviews and postings and editing of any video or anything else you guys send me. I'm glad to do alot of the work that isn't necessarily the creative process, I do want to assist in the creative process, I just realize some of you are better suited. So, what's your opinion I am with you all the way. The base starting point should be everything already in print (GHotR + Orc King events). We shall probably have to leave Silverymoon etc. alone (Orc king trilogy already planned out), but that leaves an awful lot of "fair game". We can "fill in" on events between 1375 and 1385, and extrapolate forwards (using some guidance from Orc King etc.). So, here is a quick summary of what is changed: 1375 - Year of Risen Elfkin Zhentil Keep forces: Scyllua Darkhope killed Lord of Shadowdale: Azalar Falconhand replace Mourgrym (who rejoins knights of Myth Drannor) Thay: Druxus Rhym (Zulkir of Transmutation) murdered, replaced by Samas Kul Aznar Thrul (Zulkir of Evocation) killed, replaced by ? Szass Tam blocked from becoming regent, civil war begins. Gods Selvetarm and Vhaeraun killed in battle between Ellistraee and Lolth. 1376 - Year of the Bent Blade Zhentil Keep Fzoul sues for peace and retreats from Myth Drannor. 1377 - Year of the Haunting Myth Drannor Ilsevele made "Coronal". Gods Kiaransalee stripped of recognition - fades from existence. 1378 - Year of the Cauldron Nothing much 1379 - Year of the Lost Keep Gods Ghaunadaur leaves demonweb pits for the Deep Caverns. This is just the first 5 years. There is are two main threads here: Elves vs. Zhentil Keep, and Thay civil war. In the Elves vs Zhentil Keep, we have major victories for the forces of good. The deaths of Selvetarm, Vhaeraun and Kiaransalee one the one hand deal a huge blow to evil forces, on the other hand, consolidating them under Lolth (and to a lesser extent, Ghaunadaur). Eilistraee is a big winner here, absorbing the church of Vhaeraun. Vhaeraun who had renegade male drow in his portfolio, probably adds a large number of followers - although the more evil ones would slide towards Ghaunadaur. So we have: Lolth: Drow females, some male drow. Eilistraee: good drow, non-evil males (or males who cannot stomach Ghaunadaur or Lolth). Ghaunadar: evil males who cannot stomach Eilistraee or Lolth. Thay I shal leave to others to comment on, since I know little about there, and I do not have the detailed sourcebooks for the region.
Khaelieth 12-16-07, 05:00 PM	Please, please, please. No killing drow gods. That's a major thing I didn't like, Vhaeraun am teh 1337zor.
dimonic 12-16-07, 06:23 PM	Please, please, please. No killing drow gods. That's a major thing I didn't like, Vhaeraun am teh 1337zor. Wrong thread. This is not where you complain about what has already happened. This is where you get to help build what results given the facts so far. There are other threads where you can talk about building an alternative FR. This one is for ideas that WotC can use given the fact that they have published (GHotR) all the data I have mentioned already. I am just sharing these facts as a base for others to build a bigger picture with.
Khaelieth 12-16-07, 07:09 PM	No, I meant about your timeline. Scale it back two years, and you could easily fix it.
dimonic 12-16-07, 08:00 PM	No, I meant about your timeline. Scale it back two years, and you could easily fix it. And that would begin an alternate universe. The removals of the various drow gods does happen in the WotC FR. It is already published in the Grand History of the Realms. What is being proposed in this thread is how the details can be filled in given the events that have already been published.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-16-07, 08:48 PM	Rino, seeing as you're the only person to step forward and offer to really help shoulder the burden of "leadership" I guess I'll just ask you, do we want to start a new timeline, or do we want to try and sway WotC opinion? I think we could possibly accomplish both, but the influencing would probably be on the small scale you described earlier in the thread. But hell, I'm up for either one as I'm just excited on creating this compilation at this point. While I'm flattered that you would offer me "the burden of leadership", I'm perfectly happy with just offering advice.:) Since you asked me what I think--I'd go with starting a new timeline. But I wouldn't be adverse to showing WotC some of our ideas to see if there's anything they could do with them, either.
Fingoldfin 12-16-07, 10:13 PM	Wrong thread. This is not where you complain about what has already happened. This is where you get to help build what results given the facts so far. There are other threads where you can talk about building an alternative FR. This one is for ideas that WotC can use given the fact that they have published (GHotR) all the data I have mentioned already. I am just sharing these facts as a base for others to build a bigger picture with. In that case I'm out. There is very little in the last two pages of GHotR that I would even consider using.
OrderofUhlrik 12-16-07, 10:25 PM	I didn't necessarily mean that leadership, I just feel like I don't have the proper wording for what exactly it is I'm looking for other than editor. Alright, I'd prefer for simplicities sake to attempt to stay with the timeline we've already been given. Because despite all the assurances of the impossibility of it, I believe we can in fact influence the 4e design changes. If, however it becomes clear that is an impossibility I would be more than glad to go back and make corrections that allow for the project to be clearly an alternative to the canon FR. Dimonic I appreciate your input and your zeal. You are absolutely right, this is not a thread to merely air your grievances. I do not mind that, but I would strongly suggest that instead you post your grievance, and then a suggestion as to how to improve/change it. We are starting with 1374-5 DR. Realize that it is relatively impossible to get Wizards to change the OVERALL concepts they have implemented. For example, by all appearances Kiaransalee's name has been erased from the majority of the Realms, however this does not mean that she could not have learned a thing or two from her nemesis Orcus and have survived the spell in a different form/less powerful form etc. Fingoldfin I do in fact like your approach and I had thought of suggesting something similar to that myself in as this thread gained more steam. Up until this point I was worried I'd find anyone who would be willing to help take this up with me. My idea was to pick an area, and then create a timeline from say DR 1374-1385 that can coincide with the overall themes/events in AGHotR and the novels/sourcebooks relating to these areas during the given timeframe. If you want to go with the Lake of Steam, please be my guest. Karsus would you be interested in doing something for the Elves during this time period? Say Myth Drannor/Evermeet? Rino, maybe you have a particular area of interest you'd like to take up? Some area related to the Chosen as they are seemingly characters you enjoy? Perhaps Shadowdale or the Simbul's kingdom? I don't know, just me throwing out ideas. The thing I find unfortunate is that several areas I'd be interested in are in a transitional stage between novels (Thay and Sembia) and I'd just have to get entirely lucky in order to get anything that came close to canon. I'd give it a shot though. So I may well start work on Thay as the events in Unclean really interest me. MarkusTay, would you perhaps be willing to do some write ups for Kara Tur? I know you want to wait, but hell you seem to enjoy that region and it would be much appreciated. What do you guys think? Does this sound like a good approach? If not, please give me a counter suggestion and we'll try to figure something out.
OrderofUhlrik 12-16-07, 10:29 PM	In that case I'm out. There is very little in the last two pages of GHotR that I would even consider using. Well, I agree the last two pages of the GHotR are depressing, I propose that while we have to follow the timeline in those two pages SOMEWHAT, that we really would only have to find plausible "loopholes" if you will to avoid the rather unseemly portions of it. The book says that Kiaransalee's name was erased from the Realms. We could take it a step further and say she survived as did Orcus. (Sorry to use the same example twice.) The point is, not many of us liked those last two pages. Trying to totally do a 180 on them is likely to result in failure, but if we can find a way to extend the context they give us in the book then perhaps we can enact changes the majority of us find positive.
Khaelieth 12-17-07, 08:42 AM	In that case I'm out. There is very little in the last two pages of GHotR that I would even consider using. Seconded. They're the main problem.
Zireael 12-17-07, 09:11 AM	1374 on. The rest are too big time gap.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-17-07, 10:40 AM	I didn't necessarily mean that leadership, I just feel like I don't have the proper wording for what exactly it is I'm looking for other than editor. I think you might be selling yourself short there. :) This whole topic was your idea, I don't see why you shouldn't be the leader (or "a" leader). Rino, maybe you have a particular area of interest you'd like to take up? Some area related to the Chosen as they are seemingly characters you enjoy? Perhaps Shadowdale or the Simbul's kingdom? I don't know, just me throwing out ideas. OK, that's a good idea, let me give that some thought, all right?:)
OrderofUhlrik 12-17-07, 03:34 PM	Give it all the thought you need. I generally didn't expect to get this much support from anybody as this topic is at best ideallistic, but hell I figured it could be fun and possibly constructive to the Realms of the future.
johnkretzer 12-17-07, 03:46 PM	Give it all the thought you need. I generally didn't expect to get this much support from anybody as this topic is at best ideallistic, but hell I figured it could be fun and possibly constructive to the Realms of the future. The problem is some of us are just going to ignore WotC canon for a while. The changes they are making are completely counter to what we enjoy about the Realms.
OrderofUhlrik 12-17-07, 06:51 PM	I can understand that sentiment, hell that's why I'm trying to do this after all. The thing is, some of the changes that are the most controversial could be changed into more palpable changes if we expand their context and tweak them a bit. That way it is consistent with what Wizards has released as canon. For example, we know that Mystra kicks the bucket for sure. If you expand the context it can be said she expected the attack and laid plans for ressurection in the future. Another example, Helm may well find himself back in the realm of the living gods. He is Ao's chosen boy after all. All of these things in GHotR were given no context, what I propose is that we can give them context, plus give other parts of the realms a timeline for the events that take place between 1375-85(And beyond possibly). If you don't like what you've seen so far why not try and do something about it rather than just ignore it? Hell even if Wizards ignores this project then at least you'd have a good start for an alternate Realms as I have been saying this whole thread through.
Stigger 12-17-07, 08:03 PM	Personally, despite agreeing that the Realms do need a change to update them, I've little to no interest in the official canon as it currently stands. Hence, I don't have much interest in staying consistent with WotC's official view. Which kinda sucks for contributing to the ideas here, as I don't see much point to putting effort into something I'll never use.
OrderofUhlrik 12-17-07, 10:18 PM	Well Stigger that's dissapointing. But seeing as my plan is to take individual parts of the Realms and provide a plausible timeline for them, is there no place in the Realms at all that you and Wizards have so far seen eye to eye on and that you'd be willing to come up with ideas for? Or hell, there are some places Wizards didn't even touch in the last few pages in GHotR. I realize that not everyone gives a damn about canon, I've just always been somewhat interested in it because I enjoy the novels and the sourcebook flavor. Another thing is its just alot less to remember if things somewhat coincide to canon. The thing is I see so many people who care about the Realms and complain about the way Wizards is going and yet the majority of people just want to abandon the canon Realms and go off with their own personal Realms. But I figure if the people fell in love with the canon Realms at one point or another, then we can fight to make them something people will still enjoy.
Lord Karsus 12-18-07, 12:24 AM	-If we're going to be explaining what happens in the intrim between AGHotR, and the 4e FRCS, it's imprerative that we wait until the 4e FRCS is released. Sure, we have a general idea, but we can't work towards an end product unti we actually have an end product. Of course, that shouldn't stop this thread being an information clearinghouse, and a place to bounce ideas off of each other.
Stigger 12-18-07, 01:03 AM	I can understand the feeling Uhlrik, but the whole accepting the Spellplague and Deific Love Triangle thing as something that happened is not what I have in mind for my Realms. That basic premise is a deal-breaker for me, and is a definite point of departure for anything I might work on, as I'd be presuming those things didn't happen. So even if I just focused on a specific region, how would I go about detailing it under the assumption that certain Deities and their faiths are still alive and well there, and still manage to adhere to the 'official story'? Particularly when, as LK pointed out, we're not even sure who's in and who's out... just seems like a good way to invite even more frustration into my life, which honestly doesn't seem like all that attractive a thing to do at the moment.
Fire_Wraith 12-18-07, 01:15 AM	Part of the problem, too, is that similar suggestions were brought up - i.e., Mystra could come back in another form, changed, etc... ressurected. However, the designers stated that they had no intention of bringing her back - they were deliberately trying to remove her from the setting, permanently.
OrderofUhlrik 12-18-07, 02:14 AM	Well Stigger, that's alright. I didn't really expect everyone to want to help due to such understandable reasoning as you just gave. If you do have any ideas though that are relevant to this endeavor I hope you won't hesitate to send them my way as you are one of the more knowledgable members of the community. I know some of the things in the GHotR are deal breakers for some people. Hell I dread the fact that many things in the new FRCS will be dealbreakers for me. Hence this whole effort. I would ask you to look at this thread from time to time and maybe bounce ideas off of those of us who do work on this (Even if it ends up just being me). That would be very much appreciated. Karsus I understand the wanting to wait until the release of more information about 4e before beginning any sort of undertaking, but then again, if we were to do that any influence we could possibly have regarding some of the context of the snippets we do have would be lost. As it stands we have very little information regarding the context of the events in the last few pages of GHotR but if we change that and provide clear support for the ideas we present maybe we can in fact do something to change the Realms in a manner that suits more of the fans of the Realms taste before they actually put out the 4e FRCS. And besides, as you said, this thread can continue to be a hub of information and idea bouncing anyhow, but I'd love to be able to do something truly constructive with it towards the ends I've stated dozens of times by now. So, I'll ask you again if you'd be interested in possibly creating some sort of timeline for some of the elven realms, say Evermeet/Evereska/Myth Drannor or some other place like that? Fire_Wraith, while the death of Mystra may or may not be set in stone there are many other things about the Realms that are still up in the air and that can still be written about. And as I've stated more times than I care to count, if this thread can become what I envision it to be, then even if it is an abysmal failure, it should be a small matter to use this thread as a foundation for an alternate Realms that Mystra can be re-added too. If it succeeds, the same is true for those who wish to not follow canon. So I don't see the harm in assisting this endeavor unless you just don't care to, which I can completely understand as well. Anyhow, my timeline regarding Thay is in its conceptual stages, if anyone has any suggestions feel free to PM me or reply. If anyone has an area they'd like to work on, please reply or PM to that effect as well. I welcome anyone who is interested and hope sincerely that some of you are. Heh.
JosephL 12-18-07, 02:15 AM	Hey I'm in if you want just let me know where you want me to start. I've all ready started thinking about where Sembian refuges will wind up and how Archenbridge will be affected by the Shades now having influence in Sembia.:)
MarkusTay63 12-18-07, 12:25 PM	-If we're going to be explaining what happens in the intrim between AGHotR, and the 4e FRCS, it's imprerative that we wait until the 4e FRCS is released.Exactly what I've decided as well. Either you create an alternate timeline, which most FR fans plan to do anyway (and always have, for the most part), OR you write history that meshes the 3e world to the 4e one, staying canon to BOTH. Since we don't know what 4e looks like, we couldn't possibly do this at this point in time. I think, after all the many months of 'discussion', many of the 'naysayers' have finally decided upon a 'wait-and-see' attitude. I think many of the pro-4e camp has seen some of our 'complaints' have merit, and are also taking this stand. Its nice to see the initial fervor has died down and most of agree that this 'new' FR sounds 'scarey', but we really can't discuss it anymore without new information. If you think about it, the people who are 'pro-4e' are just as bad as those against it - how can you possibly like or dislike something you know almost nothing about? It'll either suck, or be great, and all we can do is wait until August to see what they come up with. After that, we will all whine and cry and argue until we are blue in the face for a whole 'nother year. ;)
Lord Karsus 12-18-07, 02:44 PM	So, I'll ask you again if you'd be interested in possibly creating some sort of timeline for some of the elven realms, say Evermeet/Evereska/Myth Drannor or some other place like that? -No, because while I have a starting point, I have no ending point. In my mind, everything on Evermeet should be going on like business as usual. I'd write that into my idea for the island. Then, the 4e FRCS comes along and says that Evermeet sinks (!?) during the "merging of two worlds". Bummer. Now what? -Know what I mean? For certain aspects of the Realms, this all can be done, because we know about the place right now, and have a decent idea of what it will be like in the 4e FRCS (Sembia, for instance). Others, though, we have no clue- Lantan, for instance. Either you create an alternate timeline, which most FR fans plan to do anyway (and always have, for the most part), OR you write history that meshes the 3e world to the 4e one, staying canon to BOTH. Since we don't know what 4e looks like, we couldn't possibly do this at this point in time. -I, personally, think making a pseudoofficial storyline starting from 1374 DR is an interesting idea, myself, but... If you think about it, the people who are 'pro-4e' are just as bad as those against it - how can you possibly like or dislike something you know almost nothing about? -Large amounts of Kool-Aid.
OrderofUhlrik 12-18-07, 04:07 PM	Actually that is not entirely true, my first crack at this timeline business was only going to run roughly up until the Spellplague happened. As you said, too much is up in the air after that. So from DR 1374-1385. If anybody wanted to continue a pseudo-storyline afterward that would not necessarily have to coincide with canon as that's too far to speculate at the moment. So would that help you considering the endpoint matter and the concern with having to stick too close to canon? That way, the only things that would have to be close to canon are those 11 years that are vague for the areas of the Realms covered in GHotR or non existant for others, which should allow for plenty of creative leeway. After 1385 anything that we come up with would most likely diverge from canon but if we can create logical timelines that are supported by testimonial then perhaps even our conjecture can have an effect on the 4e FRCS. Hence my call for it now rather than later. If you are not interested in helping still after this clarification then that is perfectly fine, but I get the impression you're thinking that I expect people to stay with canon open-endedly where in fact I only thought it would be prudent to attempt to work inside canon until 1385, which in fact is mostly just vague blurbs that can be vastly changed given any sort of context. Really, I've come to see that many of you are tremendously creative and I thought that some of you would be able to extrapolate given the few details we have and the history of various regions. I don't however expect these extrapolations to be spot on. But, if we can come up with something that is plausible and potentially popular, that coincides with more of this community's view of what the Realms in 4e should look like, perhaps we can effect the 4e FRCS. That's why I don't want to wait on them. I'm not asking you people to read Wizards minds and vomit it out. I expected that we'd come up with different things than them about different places. Yet, I believe that if we can show our ideas have merit, then perhaps we can effect the 4e design team. The decision with Torm is a good example of that. So, seeing as you're one of the experts on the realms of the elves I thought you might be willing to do some timelining for them. As I said though, if this explanation does not help change your mind, I understand. I just definately feel as if some of you are not quite understanding what I'm trying to do here. Which could be entirely my fault as I may not be adequately stating it, but I think I may have rectified that with this post. So Markus, I believe we can actually do both right now. Create a timeline for the majority of the Realms that meshes with canon for the material we do have, DR 1374-85, and then create our own timelines for afterwards that may have an impact on the design of 4E FR. I disagree entirely that this thread has to be one or the other as right now we have the perfect opportunity to do both.