Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Archangel 04-07-04, 06:38 AM	Recently I found out that FR is connected to our world via forgotten portals. So let's say in our world those portals are found and a decision is made to try to take over a part of the Realms for its power and treasures. Let's say big enough portals are found in the oceans that whole carriers can get through. Let's say important FR NPCs are warned by the gods of this invasion that is going to happen VERY SOON(maybe in 24 hours or so). Now either side knows only little about the other (our side knows a little more since we are attacking). For the sake of the argument the portals cannot be closed just like that. Who will win? P.S. please don't use this thread for any real life political opinions! For the sake of the argument NATO, Russia and China are united. (I've had this argument with my friends on our last session and it lasted for the half of it; I am pro FR)
mortellan 04-07-04, 06:52 AM	Strange thread. I'll bite. Earth would win. You said it was a given NATO, China and Russia united, not the Realms. There is no single nation/organization on Faerun that could contend with a technologically advanced coalition from a planet with 5+ billion people to draw armies from. Now if the gods stepped in that would be cheating, but I still think there would be some dead-avatars when its all said and done.
Orion the Raven 04-07-04, 06:58 AM	our side knows a little more since we are attacking Of course our side knows more, we have what amounts to the most important information on the entire world and its defenders available in a hardback from WOTC. ;) Well, if memory serves, non-magical electrical devices will not function in the Realms (At least, it used to work this way.). I know it used to be that non-magicial smoke powder (gunpowder) didn't work there either (But this has been changed in 3e.). Assuming they would, however, the real world wins hands down. It is not even a contest. Barring direct intervetion of gods, there is no military force on Faerun that could withstand a fully modern assault. A favorite quote of mine from the old 2e DM's Guide was "A wand of Magic Missiles really has very little on an M-16.". That sentiment rings true here. Didn't one of the (Really old.) old mag stories mention a botched attempt by Tssaz Tam (sp) to try something like this? Bringing guns to Faerun only to find they didn't work there?
mortellan 04-07-04, 07:03 AM	Let's say big enough portals are found in the oceans that whole carriers can get through Regardless of anti-technology on FR, Archangel validated technology on Faerun when he started this thread.
Faraer 04-07-04, 07:32 AM	The Torilian forces would ally with Canada and conquer the earth.
Orion the Raven 04-07-04, 07:53 AM	Ahh, but what happens when the entire affair becomes a three way dance as the forces of Middle Earth spew forth from a time / space rip in the dimensional fabric of New Zealand?
newbDM 04-07-04, 07:59 AM	Well it would be an interesting fight... For one when this many people came together to fight Faerun, people would start to unite. Tanks to my knowledge don`t have damage reduction...but dragons do. Epic spells Earth Quakes, and some well placed Viral Charms would make vast amounts of the Attacking force useless. Planes would cause undo amount of problems I have to admit, but they would have a hard time fighting some of the dragons as well I`m sure. Most modern day equipment requires the ability to lock onto things that give off massive heat (Air Plane Engines etc) where many dragons wouldn`t give that off. If you include the Ability to do things like Heat metal on tanks, causing earthquakes, the ability for 1 man to teleport into an area, and land meteors on the enemy`s base of operations. Modern Day artillery staying way back and hitting from where it was safe is not an option since teleport exists. Any dead soldier on either side could be used as a weapon by Faerun`s necromancers. Through in Wish and Miracle and I think could halt a whole heck of a lot of the assault. If Faerun marched up and fought them one on one there is no way they`d win. We`d have to use cunning. Using Illusions to mask our movements, using illusions to change opposing units to look like enemy`s. Charm spells on leaders. Replacing key military members with Doppleganers. Summong Demons with big Damage reduction. Borrowing Dragons attacking from the ground. Drow attacking at night. Remember Nato attack other countries in the world and they didn`t bring 5million people more like 100-200 thousand which I think could be dealt with once Faerun learned what they were facing. Faerun is much bigger than Earth if I remember correctly and supply lines would be attacked constantly with Teleporting members etc. And once a group of wizard/rogue's got a hold of some of the weapons themselves all heck would break loose. Of course this is all null and void if Earth started to use Nukes.
Archangel 04-07-04, 08:04 AM	Ahh, but what happens when the entire affair becomes a three way dance as the forces of Middle Earth spew forth from a time / space rip in the dimensional fabric of New Zealand? Please stay on Topic! Of course our side knows more, we have what amounts to the most important information on the entire world and its defenders available in a hardback from WOTC. Let's say we don't have these, TSR went bust in 70' and only a few books are still around. Also governments see roleplayers as nerds that have nothing to do with military.:) But consider all the high level wizards that in disguise go and charm generals and presidents, polymorph(X-MAN 2 anyone?) into world leaders. Make teleporting strikes against key points and soo on. If anyone wants to compare numbers use D20 Modern for rules on our world, but also this discussion can stay out of world of numbers!
Archangel 04-07-04, 08:07 AM	I said conquer not destroy. If Faerun managed to defend itself and then tried to do the same to US then Nukes would be surly used for defense!
Orion the Raven 04-07-04, 08:17 AM	Please stay on Topic! No need to get snappy, it was only a joke. However, if you want to bring D20 modern into it, it becomes an entirely different affair. Due to the major gaps in logic concerning D20 applied to modern days materials and weapons, it is a whole new ballgame. Do you want the debate based on D20 Modern? Because I would need more time to think of that outcome.
Cunning Linguist 04-07-04, 08:22 AM	Faerun would win. Guns would not fire, airplanes would not fly, cars and tanks can't run on disel.. all thanks to Gond and his mighty godly powers. The other way around, Faerun tryes to get into earth: Earth would win Magic would not works, dragons could not fly and so on..
Archangel 04-07-04, 08:22 AM	As I said if you want to compare it by numbers and not by logic/novels/tactics/strategy then d20 Modern is the only way to compare it to D&D!
newbDM 04-07-04, 08:37 AM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Faerun would win. Guns would not fire, airplanes would not fly, cars and tanks can't run on disel.. all thanks to Gond and his mighty godly powers. The other way around, Faerun tryes to get into earth: Earth would win Magic would not works, dragons could not fly and so on.. We are assuming that Tech works on Faerun in the begining of the discussion. And even if AO may not like the idea, DM > AO. So lets throw out the "Tech won't work" and go from there :)
Cunning Linguist 04-07-04, 08:52 AM	Still would not work. Summon up a Balor and see how many Good and Holy weapons the US army has to shot him down with. I think the Krakken sociaity alone could take them down. Submarines and Carriers would fall fast to a Krakken. The earth army does not have any protection against magic, so they would most likely all fail there saving throws against mind affecting spells. On top of that, earth would not have any magical missiels, so a protection against normal missiles would protect any mage from basicly all weapon fire. Tech might be a great thing, but magic does everything tech can do, but more and faster.
newbDM 04-07-04, 09:01 AM	I agree 100% I think it would come down to 1 spell... a viral charm... and that would be the end of the invasion.
Archangel 04-07-04, 09:06 AM	You forget that we also have diseases(Ebola anyone)!
newbDM 04-07-04, 09:18 AM	What virus would bother Faerun (Assume when you say WE you mean Earth since we're from there) since they can cure any disease with a little cleric spell?
faridjo 04-07-04, 09:20 AM	Earth vs Faerun, HaHahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahaha, and hahahhahahahahhah some more. Faerun would win hand down, no question ask. While technology of earth would be superior, i have to say magic is far, far and far more superior. Plus no god inside faerun stupid enough to let earthling kill all his/her faithful and then bring more godless earthling to faerun. Carrier, arkk how about pitting that again 100 foot wave created by umberlee. or army of sea elves and dragon turtle blasting american navy back to watery depth. Or what about nuke a good mythallar can take care of of that. Mystra wouldn't let any technology wielding psycho come and destroy her magical world would'nt she. Airplane ahhhh that nice. See my mage friend, america send her airplane why dont we all send a nice good fireball. Yeah right that nice airplane now turned into a good nice firefly that litter the night sky. Army guy wanna goes trigger happy on the faerun folk, that ok Mr.Thay, mr.Zhentil Keep, Mrs. Seven Sister, Mr. Drow Archmage and mr arcane brotherhood really wanna to summon the whole hell plus the abyss to them. I bet a tanarri, vrock and succubus is a good sport for the army guy than the terrorist guy. Then what the drow would a major pain to any army in the world, striking blindly in the night, putting poison in thier supplies and what MR. Illithid REALLY LIKE ABOUT THIS more and more and more slave to go around. Then what few epic caster casting ritual magic, please i wont go to that there will be some much blood, that the blood elemental from the whole blood plane will be puking blood all night looooooong. It would be a miricle, i mean literally for one earthling to survive for i second. By that time i would put on my chainmail and cross portal and begin my life a faerunian. Because by god i wont be here when faerunian started to plot for revenge.
mortellan 04-07-04, 09:53 AM	Summon up a Balor and see how many Good and Holy weapons the US army has to shot him down with. Damage reduction isn't -that- good. Plus no god inside faerun stupid enough to let earthling kill all his/her faithful and then bring more godless earthling to faerun. Carrier, arkk how about pitting that again 100 foot wave created by umberlee. or army of sea elves and dragon turtle blasting american navy back to watery depth. Or what about nuke a good mythallar can take care of of that. Mystra wouldn't let any technology wielding psycho come and destroy her magical world would'nt she. tsk tsk, do the gods always hold Faerunian's hands?
Archangel 04-07-04, 09:57 AM	Yes I mean WE! Hey no Gods! AO wouldn't allow that. Since our Gods also aren't answering prayers they could be Overpowers and they wouldn't allow simple Gods to meddle! But a Fireball cannot strike a plane. A Kraken couldn't come close to a Submarine or a Carrier without their knowledge. And one torpedo would effectively kill it! Hey people, we are talking Cruise Missiles, Cluster Bombs, don't think Gulf War, think WWII! As for Epic spells, they take too much to develop and even more to cast! Also you forget Faerun has never seen tehnology like ours, they would think it is some other kind of magic. Wizards would firstly try to dispel everything! Also realisticly tanks would have Hardness and a huge ones (20+), ships a lot more! Also normal Faerun armies cannot stand against machine guns and mortars and cannons! Also there are too many people for Faerun clerics to heal. Cure Disease is not lvl 1 spell! Also evil organizations and clerics will probably see this as an opportinity for conquest. Thay doesn't care if Waterdeep burns or not, they are on the other side of Faerun! I am for FR but you are not considering everything!
Rick Day 04-07-04, 10:00 AM	Two words, Invisible assasins. There would be no leaders left to command the invasion. The epic mages could handle the rest. Simple.
mortellan 04-07-04, 10:09 AM	Two words, Invisible assasins. There would be no leaders left to command the invasion. The epic mages could handle the rest. three words, Chain of Command. You could slay the entire U.S. Cabinet and Pentagon hierarchy and someone would step in. Epic mages can only cast so much per day, then they are spent.
newbDM 04-07-04, 10:14 AM	1. Krakens can be silent Sonar wouldn't pick them up. 2. They'd have to see something to hit it. 3. Fireballs can't hit Planes but Lightning Bolts Can. 4. Epic spells would easily be cast from a bunch of Invis Wizards. 5. There are more viral spells than needed, and diseases that Earth has never seen. 6. They would be assaulted from below and above, many types of burrowing monsters would make traveling by land very dangerous. 7. People like the Princes of Shade could pretty much end the discussion right there... 8. Extended Time Stop, and Delayed Blast Fireballs pretty much ends most combat before it started. 9. 1. Balor vs 1 tank = 1 dead tank. 10. Supply Lines : How on earth do you feed 5 billion people when there are invis wizards/rogues with Teleport, Disguise, etc who charm, assisinate or destroy all of your food carriers (No problem for Faerfun people clerics cast Create food etc) 11. A jet would have a hard time handling something that has no electronics to target and lock on with, dragon riders with protection from normal missiles on both them and their mount could easily make quick work of them. 12. Earths Navy has never had to fight a montster Native to water... they would loose thousands of ships and people. As Sonar is good but nowhere near is good as actual site. Whales, Kraken's, Leviatons, Sea Elves, too much for the Navy ever to get a foot hold. 13. The sparceness of Faerun means we may loose one side of Faerun but as a whole we would have ample time to portal in reinforements... 14. Hit and Run tactics are brought to an alltime high with Teleport. 15. Thayan Bombards... :) 16. Domination... 17. Dragon Fear 18. Mass Charm 19. Firestorm from a Improve Invised Cleric.... 20. Animate Object..... etc etc etc.
newbDM 04-07-04, 10:17 AM	Originally posted by mortellan three words, Chain of Command. You could slay the entire U.S. Cabinet and Pentagon hierarchy and someone would step in. Epic mages can only cast so much per day, then they are spent. Yup three words chain of command.... Invisible Blade kills President and everyone important.... Dopplegangers take their place.... Simple Scry spells, and Teleports without Error finds the people you need. Epic mages can only cast so many spells a day true.... Guns can only fire so many bullets without having a supply depot handy.... See invisble Blades.
Cunning Linguist 04-07-04, 10:25 AM	Damage reduction isn't -that- good. From Ultramodern Firearms we see that a Colt 9MM does 2D6 points of Damage. How do you recon that a DR of 15 does not hold up against that? Even the FN Herstal only does 2D8 points of damage, a max damage on the balor for 1 point of damage. And the Balor has 290 point to go around. Throw in a pit fiend instead, he has reg 5, so he would be even worse to get down. Bombs and such mostly do fire damage, and since the Pit Fiend is immune to such things he would not mind. A Kraken couldn't come close to a Submarine or a Carrier without their knowledge. A Kraken often has levels as Cleric or Wizard, (see Slarkrethel Chosen of Umberlee, page 154 Lords of Darkness) and could cast non-detection, invisibility and all those spells easy. Besides, a torpedo is ment to hit something that moves badly, a Kraken moves fast in the water, all ways. But a Fireball cannot strike a plane. A mage sitting on a dragon could hit a plane easy.. but then the dragon itself would be far more deadly. Faerun armies cannot stand against machine guns A protection from missiles would protect you from all bullets. Also realisticly tanks would have Hardness and a huge ones (20+), ships a lot more! Have a dragon turn a tank upside down, and its useless. Have a Kraken wrap his arms around a carrier and wola, it sinks.. Hardness is useless for such things.
newbDM 04-07-04, 10:28 AM	Originally posted by Archangel Also you forget Faerun has never seen tehnology like ours, they would think it is some other kind of magic. They have Seen Constructs which is what they would treat much of it as. Also normal Faerun armies cannot stand against machine guns and mortars and cannons! Artillery would be none useful as they couldn't protect their lines, as entire platoons of invisible people could dimension door past their lines of defense, right to the chain of command itself and cripple the military. And last time I checked no Earth Army has been fighting Dragons, Demons, Lycanthropes, Liches, Vampires, and Epic Wizards either... I think they'd be equally scared of Faerun Denizens. Also there are too many people for Faerun clerics to heal. Yup but for every epic wizard there is a cleric to Ressurect him. For every fallen soldier there is someone to animate them to fight on. Every Injured Soldier of the Earth Army is out period until they heal through medical means as apposed to magical Means... People who lost limbs have them Regenerated, a wounded soldier with Magical aid is back to 100% within a couple of minutes as opposed to a Earth Soldier. Also evil organizations and clerics will probably see this as an opportinity for conquest. Thay doesn't care if Waterdeep burns or not, they are on the other side of Faerun! In the face of such an assault all of Faerun would band together, Thay may not care if Waterdeep dies, but its better to fight on Waterdeep's soil than to let the invaders fight all the way to Thay's doorstep...besides Waterdeep is a Valued costumer from the Enclaves, and with the Right Bargaining, the Zulkir just maybe able to get more from Waterdeep for their promised aid to help The Shades have already shown us in the past that Evil will work with Good in the face of Greater Evil. Just with Different methods. I am for FR but you are not considering everything! Right back at ya :)
Shodo Panda 04-07-04, 10:41 AM	I'd like to see just how fearless the soldiers would be when they see some greater invis necro turn his best friend that just died next to him because of an arrow through his throat into an undead being. Nerves of steel...right, if that happens then you can bet the soldiers from earth won't get a save. They'll be running to the hills because a whole clip of M16 will be emptied and he's still walking cause none hit him in the right spot. Just made a whole lot of holes in the upper body. It would also come to psychological warfare. Just let a couple of wights lose. I also wonder how well our armies will fight against ethereal creatures without magic.
mortellan 04-07-04, 10:42 AM	1. Krakens can be silent Sonar wouldn't pick them up The first sea-beasty to break open a nuclear sub would get a nasty surprise itself. 2. They'd have to see something to hit it. Possibly, but Earth technology allows for striking targets many many miles away without 'seeing' it. Push-button warfare. 3. Fireballs can't hit Planes but Lightning Bolts Can. Yes indeed, but can they get within range to cast? 4. Epic spells would easily be cast from a bunch of Invis Wizards. See #2. 5. There are more viral spells than needed, and diseases that Earth has never seen. That's pretty even, although I think Earth's morals are a bit higher than some evil dudes in Faerun. 6. They would be assaulted from below and above, many types of burrowing monsters would make traveling by land very dangerous. Faerunian land mines? haha 7. People like the Princes of Shade could pretty much end the discussion right there... Yeah, but -would- they? 8. Extended Time Stop, and Delayed Blast Fireballs pretty much ends most combat before it started. Tricky, I'll give ya that one, but delayed blast fireballs are just timer-bombs in modern tech. 9. 1. Balor vs 1 tank = 1 dead tank. Better bring more Balors.... 10. Supply Lines : How on earth do you feed 5 billion people when there are invis wizards/rogues with Teleport, Disguise, etc who charm, assisinate or destroy all of your food carriers (No problem for Faerfun people clerics cast Create food etc Teleport is a good advantage, but invisibility can be foiled by technology easily. Disguises would be a paltry try given Faerunians wouldn't know Earth lingo. Dopplegangers yes, would be a better shot. 11. A jet would have a hard time handling something that has no electronics to target and lock on with, dragon riders with protection from normal missiles on both them and their mount could easily make quick work of them. protection from normal missiles blocks ARROWS not balliastae bolts much less tomahawk missiles. 13. The sparceness of Faerun means we may loose one side of Faerun but as a whole we would have ample time to portal in reinforements... The first post in the thread never gave Faerun an alliance like Earth. Each country would be taken one by one, systematically. 14. Hit and Run tactics are brought to an alltime high with Teleport. Yup there's the best bet for FR. and Invisible Blade kills President and everyone important....Dopplegangers take their place.... Simple Scry spells, and Teleports without Error finds the people you need. Most world leaders would be in a DEFCON style bunker way far from the actual fighting, unlike their medieval counterparts on their warhorses. And teleporting with out Error is not error-proof from cross-planar travel.
Cunning Linguist 04-07-04, 10:57 AM	protection from normal missiles blocks ARROWS not balliastae bolts No, it protects agains ranged weapons. Bullets are ranged weapons, D20 Modern says so.
newbDM 04-07-04, 11:02 AM	Originally posted by mortellan The first sea-beasty to break open a nuclear sub would get a nasty surprise itself. You got it, but from then on it they'd just compromise the Hull and leave the rest to the water. Possibly, but Earth technology allows for striking targets many many miles away without 'seeing' it. Push-button warfare. So is Faerun's warefare... scrying tells me where the button pushers are... and a portal/teleport etc to that location ends the discussion... let alone miracle or wish. Yes indeed, but can they get within range to cast? Since Missiles would have nothing to lock on to, I mean radar guided and laser guided missles are great for non moving targets but a dragon isn't going to sit still. They'd have to close in range to use guns... also Dragons can make themselves invis. That's pretty even, although I think Earth's morals are a bit higher than some evil dudes in Faerun. Evil Organizations would use every disease, low ball tactic around, they have no "Genevia Convention" Faerunian land mines? haha Laugh but when a bunch of invis, hasted drow come up from the ground in the middle of your perimeter... you see how well a bayonet lasts against skilled invisible dual wielding Drow. Yeah, but -would- they? Well Earth poses more world wide threat than the Phaereem did.... Tricky, I'll give ya that one, but delayed blast fireballs are just timer-bombs in modern tech. Yeah but Extended Time Stop lets you walk/teleport/dimension door etc, right into the area it would be most devistating and get away without getting hurt. Better bring more Balors.... Last time I heard the Abyss was full of them...you know the infiniteness of the Abyss and all :) and they can gate in more you know... of course getting rid of the Balors later might be interesting... Teleport is a good advantage, but invisibility can be foiled by technology easily. Disguises would be a paltry try given Faerunians wouldn't know Earth lingo. Dopplegangers yes, would be a better shot. Teleport is a god advantage.... it would win the war Invisibility - Would fool most equipment they brought with them since they weren't expecting it. Language Barrier - Funny Tongues removes all of that. protection from normal missiles blocks ARROWS not balliastae bolts much less tomahawk missiles. What does a tomahawk lock onto to shot that invisbile flying dragon righting wizard??? Cause sure as nails the wizard can see the Jet. The first post in the thread never gave Faerun an alliance like Earth. Each country would be taken one by one, systematically. Thats true but we have to start making assumptions from previous sides that everyone would join forces stop them... if I remember Correctly even the Zhents joined in to help stop the Tuigan horde.....and if Thay had to fight the Horde, instead of bribing them to go around you'd be darn sure they would have helped too... here are some other Misc Advantages that Faerun Has.... Tank Vs Summoned Rust Monsters... Jets vs Walls of Force Everything vs Elementals Caster Ability to turn a normal day into Tornado valley. Most world leaders would be in a DEFCON style bunker way far from the actual fighting, unlike their medieval counterparts on their warhorses. And teleporting with out Error is not error-proof from cross-planar travel. When theys tarted coming through it wouldnt' take long to see where they are coming from, infiltrate the portal and send a couple of key members to the other side, then a couple of viral charms against say China, and India and after a couple of days you'd basicallyi have a couple of billion foot soldiers who are prostesting etc... You have to go outside the box to win this kind of fight.
ENHenry 04-07-04, 11:04 AM	What the heck. +.02 cents Many FR proponents are not I think estimating certain things clearly. First of all, explosives are NOT considered fire damage. They are a type of damage class unto themselves, but would likely be negated by standard weapon magic resistance. So the proposed legion of Balors or other DR resistant creatures would fare well against small arms fire, but there are quite a few surface-to-air missiles that would cause massive damage sufficient to at the very least cause a massive damage save. Secondly, methods such as viral charms would be useful, but you have to coe into physical contact for them to work, do you not? Many cultures frown on physical contact by associates (Asiatic cultures come to mind) except under special circumstances. Eventually, word might get out and quarantines would be enforced. Third, NO FIREBALL, MAGIC MISSILE, METEOR SWARM or LIGHTNING BOLT has the range of the weapons on an F-16 or other modern jet fighter aircraft. Even an A-10 Avenger (a close-ground assault and ground support craft) has a vulcan cannon with a range of AT LEAST 2500 ft; the typical air-to-air missiles in an F-15 or F-16 has a range measured in TENS of MILES. No dragon or mounted wizard would be able to see such a threat before being blasted into oblivion by it. The BULLETS in the Vulcan Cannons of these monstrosities weight 1 and a half POUNDS. It's tossing out shells that weigh as much as shortswords in velocities of thousands of feet per second. No one could convince me that damage resistance will resist even the majority of that damage, considering that a six-shot grouping is considered lethal to a modern tank. However, the one field that FR troops have over modern forces is in supply and staying power. If the Earth Forces cannot effect a SWEEPING, SUDDEN victory, then supply issues will get the better of them. A modern Earth force needs constant supply lines, new ammo, and FOOD and WATER for the boys and girls in uniform. An FR force can resupply JUST by SLEEPING for eight hours. They make their own food, water, first aid, etc. If they can get a night's rest, then chances are they are supplied and ready. You eventually run into an American Revolution/Vietnam type scenario; you have guerilla fighters staging massively effective attacks from hiding before fading again into shadows/terrain/extradimensional pockets. What about all the mounted "death before dishonor" knights who abhor stealth tactics? They were all slaughtered in the first two weeks of fighting. :D An A-10 Warthog on an rampage against open-field ground forces is the most tragic and pathetic thing you'll ever see.
newbDM 04-07-04, 11:16 AM	Assuming that missiles can lock onto living invisible flyers then yes Earth has the Air. But Faerun hsa the ground combat 100%. Invisiblity is just too handy. The abily to camo your unit with illusions... The abily to make your opponents fight one another by casting illusions on one half the group. There are many different types of Virus and Earth had a hard time with 1 of them... what if all the old virus came out... ones that don't have known cures? Airbourne as well as touch??? I don't think a demon would have a hard time passing his Massive Damage Save :P 1 missile would do many different types of damage, phsyical, energy, raditation etc, but many demons have several different types of damage resistance.. I'm assuming that in the first day, Knights, and those "Chivalrous" types are dead on the round and have been animated for sure, no way those types would win the fight for us. Modern day shows us that if the Enemy fights with Guerilla tactics that the US has a hard time fighting them. And if thsoe Guerilla's all the sudden had the mass power of Wizards and Clerics and Druids.... yikes that would be scary.
Alac Luin 04-07-04, 12:32 PM	This is a hard one... but just a few things for the FR side... Fireball vs. fuel trucks Heat Metal vs. Tanks Creeping doom vs. the soldiers in fox holes an F16’s heat seeking missiles will not lock on to a Dracolitch. Lazer sights can be foiled by solid fog and similar magics GPS will not work, maps are not what Earth people are used to, Earth would be sorely disadvantaged
Helmo 04-07-04, 12:47 PM	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cunning Linguist [B]Submarines and Carriers would fall fast to a Krakken. A 100,000 tons carrier being pulled down by an extra large squid?. Are you sure?.
newbDM 04-07-04, 01:11 PM	Since those Carriers are Huge I mean Huge they old more people than are in my work building. And they are several stories high above sea water I'd say no I Kraken couldn't... But a Leviation ramming it may cause some major problems...
Cunning Linguist 04-07-04, 01:14 PM	Originally posted by Helmo [QUOTE]Originally posted by Cunning Linguist [B]Submarines and Carriers would fall fast to a Krakken. A 100,000 tons carrier being pulled down by an extra large squid?. Are you sure?. Take a look at page 150 PHB.. the kraken is colossal size.. still think he can't take down a carrier? http://www.areacom.it/arte_cultura/duke/be_thekrakenwakes.jpg You sure that thing can't take down a carrier?
newbDM 04-07-04, 01:17 PM	Dang I didn't think they were that big..... great picture. But Carriers would be considered Collosal too.
Rick Day 04-07-04, 01:40 PM	Well as the the carrier comments, the kracken doesnt have to drag it under. All it has to do is tip it over and the taller it is the easier it is to do that. :) jets will run into the same problem as the first jets in wwII, they are to fast to be effective in aerial combat. They will fly right past the dragon riding mage without anything to lock on to, as it is true the missles will have nothing to lock on to without heat and or electronics. So they will be reduced to shooting their gun's at airborne targets which is easily taken care of with protection from normal missils. Some one posted that the bullets fired from the Vulcan cannon on an a-10 warthog weighed 1 1/2 pounds, thats fine but it is no where near the actual weight of a short sword. I sword fight for a hobby and I always find it funny what people think swords weigh. So the airplane is reduced to firing their missles at ground targets, which can easily be protected with hallucinatory terrain and the biggest advantage that the magic using Forgotten Realms would have. Illusions. "Holy :censored::censored::censored::censored: Bob look at that wall of knights lets shoot them up." "Ok Johnny but they might have that magic stuff that keeps them from being hit with the bullets." Commence to firing, followed by the illusions keeping coming not affected of coure and mowing down everything in its path. How well are earth troups going to react to illusins never having had to deal with them. Whoever posted the Wall of force and jet. That was classic! :)
newbDM 04-07-04, 02:13 PM	Originally posted by Rick Day Whoever posted the Wall of force and jet. That was classic! :) Thank you :)
Another Gnome 04-07-04, 02:45 PM	Wall of force is a pretty good defense, if rather limited. Going straight by the spell description, a wall of force won't get a dent even from a point-blank nuclear detonation. Well, I suppose electromagnetic radiation would still pass through just like normal light can, but I doubt too many nuclear missiles are actually used in an attempted invasion. Anyway, I must protest that I find the the setup of this debate really weird. Getting all the great armies of Earth miraculously working together (and allowing them to even keep their technology operational) while the overgod (or any of the lesser ones) of Faerūn is not allowed to put the keeping of the Balance on hold for a while and simply start using alter reality or life and death from the absolute safety of their home planes? Yeah, right... :)
Baron Phylos 04-07-04, 03:49 PM	Earth would win. We'd quickly subvert most humans from Toril to our side and their dumb gods will have no choice but to follow. And anyway, we could even get gods on our side as well. Tomorrow morning, the guy opening the New York stock exchange says "Praise Waukeen" before opening the trading and BAM Waukeen is almost instantly infused with so much power she can destroy any other god.
Taelohn 04-07-04, 04:24 PM	Something else to keep in mind; many of the people of Faerun are way smarter than us. A human who started with an 18 Int and somehow reached level 20, putting all their points into it - Int 23 (+6). That's the absolute super-genius maximum any real person could ever strive for. Now compare that to another 20th level human... only this one is a lich, and has a +5 inherent bonus from a magic tome, and a +6 enhancement bonus from a mage headband, and he's up to Int 36 (+13). Who's going to make the better plan? Magic items can make a difference... stick a Belt of Giant Strength +6 on some fairly average farmer, and suddenly he's one of the world's strongest men (by Earth standards). We also have nothing that would allow us to detect magic, see invisibility, etc. How could we fight back against an ethereal foe? You don't need to go into a big war with armies clashing... just get an archmage, mind flayer, pit fiend, whatever, into each town, and start working in secret, using mind control or just spreading terror. Heck, half a dozen trolls would take the average city apart - normal guns aren't going to stop them, and it's unlikely the city is going to recieve military aid from tanks and aircraft and such - it would be too late by the time they got there, and bombing one's own town isn't very productive. Any tough monster that's not going to go down to small arms, but can still sneak within people's houses... that would be a problem.
Mirtek 04-07-04, 04:32 PM	Originally posted by Baron Phylos And anyway, we could even get gods on our side as well. Tomorrow morning, the guy opening the New York stock exchange says "Praise Waukeen" before opening the trading and BAM Waukeen is almost instantly infused with so much power she can destroy any other god. Bane and Cyric would certainly instandly feel at home in our world
Kain's avatar 04-08-04, 12:11 AM	Check your math guys, the biggest kraken in all of toril can't do anything to a carrier. As I recall, a big kraken is like 200 feet long, and organic light flesh... Compared to a carrier that is 1,500 feet long, made of steel. A carrier weighs in excess of 80,000 tons. A kraken I would guess might weigh in at 50 tons tops. You're dreaming if you think it could do anything. Don't forget subs, which can detect whales at 50+ miles away. 50 miles away your kraken eats a 2,000lbs charge of torpedo that can rip apart a high pressure steel-hulled sub weighing 20,000 tons. Dragons fly at 120 mph tops. F-15s can afterburn to in excess of 1,500 mph. A F-15 could launch a modified AMRRAM and kill a great wyrm red at 50 miles, before it could even see the plane. Todays radars can pick up big birds like geese, a dragon would be a big fat un-missable target, easily seen at 100+miles. No spell is fast enough, or long range enough to shoot them down. A single B-52 bomber could drop enough cluster bombs to level any city on toril. A bunker busting bomb could level any tower, even magical hardened rock wizard towers. Toril could be leveled from the air alone, and there is nothing they could do about it on the ground. This is assuming they stay conventional... If they used nukes, chemical weapons, ect, it would take 30 min for Toril to be a nuclear wasteland. Even with ground forces, where Toril might be closer to par, earth has a massive advantage. A archmage with a long range spell can hit stuff at 1000 feet or so... a M240 can kill beyond 3000 feet. Assuming they even need to get that close. Artillery would rip apart anything that could be spotted, from 20 miles, before they could even get in range. Dragons picking up tanks and artillery? Ever heard of AA? A AA gun or missile battery would take it out long before it ever got there. Toril vs Earth = One toasted Toril.
Desies 04-08-04, 12:16 AM	I'm going to bring up one point: the Imasarki (the originals not the deep) came to this world at some point and brought back with them some Egyptians (known to the inhabitants of Toril as the Mulhorandi) if some of the Imaskari documents could be found the Faerunians may be able to launch a counterattack on our planet. As a defense for my points I direct you to the first sentence of the Faiths and Pantheons Mulhorandi description.
Orion the Raven 04-08-04, 12:33 AM	If you use water down tech like from the modern style D20 books, then FR might stand a chance. Krakens and dragons would still not be picking up tanks and carriers though, they are nowhere near strong enough for that. If you do the math for reality to D20 conversion without the use of D20 modern, tanks would do more than enough damage to off a balor with a single shot.
mortellan 04-08-04, 01:27 AM	Whoever posted the Wall of force and jet. That was classic Unless the walls were on the runway I think that would fail. Walls of force IIRC have to be anchored to something else, not midair. Also alot of today's smart bombs are laser guided, not just heat seeking. Not too many castles would be standing, and forget those deep dungeons, we all saw what the MOABs did. Also if an illusion makes one invisible it doesn't necessarily foil technology. I would also postulate that yall must be assuming improved invisibility because after one attack regular invisibility does you squat.
Sir_Mason_Dunne 04-08-04, 01:35 AM	Knowing generally how the US operates politically, I see them seeking alliances withing FR. Earth makes a quick and dirty alliance with the Zhents or Thay, some goup would see it politically expedient to form an alliance with these new comers to eliminate some old foe (look at every major conflict for the last 100 years on earth, rarely is it done with out an alliance of some sort). I mean, who would govern assuming Earth wins? Not Earth, hell the US can't even handle Iraq, let alone a completely different planet. With the help of our allies, I give the edge to Earth.
MoogleEmpMog 04-08-04, 01:38 AM	Originally posted by Taelohn A human who started with an 18 Int and somehow reached level 20, putting all their points into it - Int 23 (+6). That's the absolute super-genius maximum any real person could ever strive for. Now compare that to another 20th level human... only this one is a lich, and has a +5 inherent bonus from a magic tome, and a +6 enhancement bonus from a mage headband, and he's up to Int 36 (+13). Who's going to make the better plan? The human is. +6 natural. +5 Equipment bonus from advanced tactical simulation software. +4 (at least) Circumstance bonus from realtime airborne surveilance. The 20th-level human strategist (Smart/Soldier, perhaps?) has a +15 Int bonus for this purpose, compared to the 20th-level lich's +13 bonus. However, the actual differential is likely to be more along the lines of +38 for the human to +24 for the lich. Even if we give the lich the benefit of the doubt and allow him to take ranks in the Knowledge (Tactics) (or Knowledge (War)) skill, which isn't available in his world, his primary profession is magic, not war. The strategist will take full ranks in his specialty. The lich, on the other hand, is probably getting 2+Int sp per level, which will go into Spellcraft, Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Knowledge (Religion), and some Craft skills (gotta make that phylactery) before they go into Knowledge (Tactics). He might pick up a few along the way, but full progression? I seriously doubt it, especially at lower levels. Assume the lich takes, maybe, 11 ranks (max for a cross-class skill, although it IS a class skill for a wizard); even without gear and surveilance, a specialized 20th-level military commander OF FAERUN will make a better plan (+25 for an Int 15 human warlord with 23 ranks), much less an Earth general with the resources he has access to. For evidence of how bright but untrained spellcasters do commanding the Realms' armies, look at the way the 'brilliant' Red Wizards of Thay, masters of Faerun's greatest superpower, manage to botch every invasion of Rashemen. And if the human strategist's last name is Silverburg, he gets a +20 bonus on Knowledge (Tactics) checks, anyway... ;) (kudos to those who get the reference)
Archangel 04-08-04, 03:26 AM	+4 (at least) Circumstance bonus from realtime airborne surveilance. No can do, NO satelites in FR! People I must say I am pleased, finally Earth defenders started posting and they gave very good reasons for Earth victory. So now since I am no longer needed for Earth defending my future posts are going to be for FR victory. I didn't say FR wouldn't unite, just that at the start of the invasion they are not! If they would or wouldn't that is another question!
Purple Dragon Knight 04-08-04, 03:39 AM	I'd be tempted to say that the modern world would wins hands down, but after seeing that recent dragon movie (don't remember the name, but it happens in UK where a small resistance force meets some dragonslayer gung-ho colonel from the U.S.), I'm not so sure that all the weird magical weirdness of Faerun wouldn't win... Just send a doppleganger to the White House in George W. Bush form and you now have a string of really bad decisions coming out of the Pentagon... :D
mortellan 04-08-04, 03:53 AM	No can do, NO satelites in FR! Any kind of aerial surveillance (AWACS), drones, etc. would cover the lack of sattelite intelligence.
Archangel 04-08-04, 04:00 AM	And AWACS would fly from and land where, carriers maybe?
mortellan 04-08-04, 04:40 AM	Well yeah. A little carpet bombing or napalm could help make an airstrip just about anywhere though.
Teh Lurv 04-08-04, 05:09 AM	Who would win? Earth of course. How am I so certain? All we have to do is ask Ed Greenwood to write up a new FR novel called "USA defeats the combined might of Faerun." :D
ElGrecoETAC 04-08-04, 05:31 AM	Originally posted by Archangel Also governments see roleplayers as nerds that have nothing to do with military.:) Bite your tongue... there's snake-eaters and paratroopas on this board a-plenty... ;)
Derren S. 04-08-04, 05:58 AM	Faerun would win. It actually only takes a high level cleric who creates shadows, wraiths and spectres and lets them loose on earth with th order to kill every human on earth and to give this order to all spawns they create (including the "give order" part) Technology can do nothing against incorporal creatures. Magic Wins.
Purple Dragon Knight 04-08-04, 06:17 AM	Originally posted by ElGrecoETAC Bite your tongue... there's snake-eaters and paratroopas on this board a-plenty... ;) ...and military engineers, whose nerdish ways are usually very much appreciated by both their government and military... but not all the time ;)
Ashen Victor 04-08-04, 06:34 AM	FR would win undoubly 1-Just imagine a batallion in a wood: -"Hey Joe, it“s usual for trees and shurbs to take or fellows and ate em? -"No idea, but that oak seems to be really angry..." 2-The Hackers problem You are relaxed in your bunker adjudicating orders to combat units contoled by AWACS and... A RAGING UTHGARIAN BERSERK BARBARIAN HACK YOUR HEAD. end. 3- Da Drow A couple of drow coming out from earth in the enemys backline and having a "knife on your throat party". Remember that pifwafi were designed not to show any heat... so good bye IR surveillance. 4- FR Gods ARE REAL Who needs a kraken to sink a carrier when Umberlee just can give em a small tidal weave? How feel Chanuntea, Sylvanus and the like when they see woods being erased by napalm? Remenber that Sylvanus is one of the greatest ( or the greatest) deity in FR! Uff... It HURTS!!!! 5-No airplanes Airplanes need to refuel and re arm isnt it? When the are landing you summon a earth elemental in the airport and... goood byee Mr F-16 ! 6-We have Gnomes Everione knows that a gnome is a Mass Destruction Engine. No arguing. No answer. They just ROCKS!!! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Another Gnome 04-08-04, 06:37 AM	Technology can do nothing against incorporal creatures. Magic Wins. :mage: Also, sealing portals (after sending the incorporeal buggers through) and creating new ones (to send more through just for the fun of it - portals are by default one way, by the way) can only be done by magic. And the former is even relatively simple magic. Any higher-level wizard could teleport within the proximity of a portal, protected from anything the Earth forces could reasonably use to guard something, and seal the thing in a blink of an eye. Repeat as needed.
mortellan 04-08-04, 06:45 AM	Da Drow FR Gods ARE REAL Read the thread, gods intervening sort of scrubs the hypothetical war. Its mortal versus mortal here. And back to alliances, drow help surface dwellers? Would forest dwelling elves put aside their immortal hatreds? The thing Earth has over the FR is despite Earth cultural differences, the chances of our planet of ONLY humans banding together is better than a world of humans and drow and orcs and dwarves and gnomes and dragons etc etc. There would be no cohesion at all with Faerunian coalitions, at best pockets of guerilla warfare, which i admit the drow would be suited to perfectly.
mortellan 04-08-04, 06:53 AM	Also, sealing portals It was established by the starter of the thread that the portal couldn't be closed. No portal, no fictional war.
Derren S. 04-08-04, 06:57 AM	In this case, the FR will certainly contoll the portals. Send some shadows through, wait some minutes, send clerics in who turn/destroy/rebuke the shadows Then secure it with permanent Wall of Forces.
newbDM 04-08-04, 07:17 AM	Originally posted by mortellan Read the thread, gods intervening sort of scrubs the hypothetical war. Its mortal versus mortal here. And back to alliances, drow help surface dwellers? Would forest dwelling elves put aside their immortal hatreds? The thing Earth has over the FR is despite Earth cultural differences, the chances of our planet of ONLY humans banding together is better than a world of humans and drow and orcs and dwarves and gnomes and dragons etc etc. There would be no cohesion at all with Faerunian coalitions, at best pockets of guerilla warfare, which i admit the drow would be suited to perfectly. I beg to differ, I have some friends from Pakistan who would rather watch an Indian Die (From India not Native American) than lend a helping hand. There is alot of racism all over the world... do you think that Palistine or Any middle east country would jump to help out Isreal? There are many countries that are still like this. Earth is no better than Faerun in that respect. (Please note I don't want to turn this into a debate about Modern Day racism, I'm just simply stating that Earth is no better than Faerun. If I have offended anyone PM me and I"ll edit this thread. ) And there are good Drow out there more and more actually.
newbDM 04-08-04, 07:31 AM	Might be easier if we picked a local for the starting point of the Earth invasion... Somethings to note are: 1. No fortified building/castle/town/city/etc would last against any assault by the Earth Force, aside from towns with Mythals(Spelling?) but even then it really depends on what the conditions of the Mythal are. Faerun's only chance would be to spread out and stay hidden, fight a Guerrila war, since Earth can easily kill any united force. Groups that are used to infiltrating would do very well: Harpers Shadow Thiefs Night Masks Zhents etc. As for the Zhents or the Red Wizards joining the Earth side... the only way the Zhents would in my mind is if they could convince the leader of the Earth Forces to follow Bane... and at the moment I don't think George W. would switch from his very strong Christian Ways. The Red Wizards may make a pact not to join in the defense of Faerun(The old thay would for sure... but the new thay... I'm not so sure since many of these cities have Thayan land in them with Enclaves) anyways but they would never join forces with them because they would be the lower of the two partners something no Zulkir would accept. I think one of the very strong defense of Faerun would be the Cyric's Church. Since they are spread out, have magical means to do what needs to be done, and have every loony on the planet following them I could easily see them being a huge benefit to Faerun. Illusions don't fool Modern Day Instruments. Well yes they don't but its the person who aims the instruments, not me telling they computer "Launch a bomb at the enemy" The pilot see's an enemy he launches a laser guided bomb... and if that bomb happened to land land in a bunch of his own troops disguised as Orcs with a mass illusion spell, the bomb would hit where it is supposed to ... If modern day equipment was so infallible then: 1. There would be very little friendly fire deaths in war 2. Helicopters in Iraq would always get off the ground instead of being grounded with Sand in them. etc etc
Cunning Linguist 04-08-04, 07:59 AM	ok, nobody has said this yet, so I guess I have to put it in.. A Earth camp site with 1000-5000 soldiers in it. lots of vampires drift in as fog. Day after 5000 new vampire spawns to fight for faerun. Bullets don't hurt vampires and they regenerate like a madman. They would all be dead before anyone knew what hit them. Then someone said "Kraken would be taken down by a torpedo" Well, a Kraken often has levels as a wizard, or a cleric. So they could cast non detection and invisibility. As to how big they are. A 33HD Kraken is Colossal, and they can grow as big as 60 HD, so it can get twice as big as the picture on page 150 in players handbook. And read the discription on the Kraken: "Though these behemoths are rearely seen on the surface, stories tell of ships dragged under, and islands scoured of life by these monsters." And I don't even want to think about the size of a Legendary Kraken, i think it would be bigger then the one on the picture I posted. (or a Pseudonatural kraken or that sake)
Archangel 04-08-04, 09:11 AM	Oh yea start inventing monsters that we don't know that exist. In this way this entire thread is pointless because then a lvl 65 wizard will apear that has been in stasis for 5000 years and will kill all invaders with one epic spell!:(
mortellan 04-08-04, 09:29 AM	ok, nobody has said this yet, so I guess I have to put it in.. A Earth camp site with 1000-5000 soldiers in it. lots of vampires drift in as fog. Day after 5000 new vampire spawns to fight for faerun. Bullets don't hurt vampires and they regenerate like a madman. They would all be dead before anyone knew what hit them. Yes, but there is a reason this wouldn't happen. If vampires could do this, they would rule Faerun already. And magical priestly stuff aside, vampires regulate their numbers on purpose due to food concerns. Also any 3 y.o. Earthling knows what kills a vampire. I'd rather you send the incorpreals after the Earthlings, thats more problematic and they also don't need sustenance from human stock.
Lashan 04-08-04, 10:22 AM	You know, the Harpers would be up in arms against George W. Bush. Starting wars, artic drilling, opening up reserves for drilling, large sembian merchant connections....errr...big business connections.
Nightingale 7 04-08-04, 10:37 AM	Come on guys,the battle is already won.Think a little about it,WOTC is on our side!:D Imagine:A phone rings at the offices of WOTC.Everyone tenses reflexively.Ed Greenwood picks up the phone: EG:Yes? A sharp angry voice:Hey writers!Code Red!This Elminster guy is destroying us!Quick!Cook up a supplement or a web enhancement where he is sucked in hell and killed by demonic pink bunnies or something ASAP!!! :rofl:
Mirtek 04-08-04, 11:27 AM	Originally posted by Kain's avatar 50 miles away your kraken eats a 2,000lbs charge of torpedo that can rip apart a high pressure steel-hulled sub weighing 20,000 tons.A torpedo can't kill a kraken with a single hit. A torpedo will do XdX damage, that's all. Compare D20 modern to D&D. A dragon's breath is actually more powerfull than a cruise missle. AndOriginally posted by Kain's avatar A F-15 could launch a modified AMRRAM and kill a great wyrm red at 50 miles, before it could even see the plane. Again: Modern weapons don't kill with a single hit. And a dragon can easily avoid thos missles with a simple protection from arrows spells, since a F-15 doesn't have any magical AMRRAMs Originally posted by Kain's avatar A single B-52 bomber could drop enough cluster bombs to level any city on toril. Except that they would collide with invisible, indetecable walls appearing in the air in front of them. Originally posted by Kain's avatar A bunker busting bomb could level any tower, even magical hardened rock wizard towers. Toril could be leveled from the air alone, and there is nothing they could do about it on the ground.And again: No. XdX damage, can't penetrate protective spells. Originally posted by Kain's avatar M240 can kill beyond 3000 feet. And can't beat the most simple anti-arrow spells. Originally posted by Kain's avatar A AA gun or missile battery would take it out long before it ever got there. Couldn'z get through DR X/magic
Selgaunt 04-08-04, 11:57 AM	I think the defenders of Faerun would win! Why? It's simple. Elminster, Khelben "Balckstaff" Arunsun, the Simbul and every other powerful mage in the realms would have to cast a few important spells, and the attackers from "earth" would be defeated! What kind of spells you might ask?? How about Time stop!!! or Wish... Not to mention the gods could just easily come down and take care of the infantry soldiers that are sent by Earth. Imagine a whole army of fighter planes coming through and are about to attack. One mage could cast reverse gravity and every single plane would be destroyed! Earth doesn't stand a chance!!!:)
Droakor 04-08-04, 12:19 PM	This thread is hilarious. All you DnD fanatics thinking Faerun would actually have a chance is funny. Puh-leese. Anyone with a modicum of understanding of the destruction and power the modern military has knows that Toril would be a smoking crater in under a month. You want to break it down in game terms well then knock yourself out. This missile would only do xdx damage... its right here according to my book... Anyone with an actual understanding of how much damage a 2000 lb explosive would do knows that a dragon, a kraken, hell a deity would be destroyed completely. You want to break out your rule books and start figuring out all the ins and outs go right ahead, but if any of you had actually witnessed such destruction you'd toss the books right out the window. *laugh* Sure your protection from arrows spell is going to stop a cruise missile or laser guided smart bombs... sure they will. Give me a break. Also, you all talk about how this epic spell or that archmage or hey lets get 1000 vampires... please, I don't know what kind of world you guys play in but you make it sound like these things are run of the mill. "Yes the old run down warehouse in Baldur's Gate has 4000 undead in there. We've saved them up for just this occasion. Damn you earthlings, now you're gonna get it!" "Well you know I come from a family of seven brothers and six sisters and we gave up the farm to become epic level archmages. Life is so much more interesting now that we've done that." Come on, I understand that you want to defend your favorite DnD world but you have got to be kidding.
Derren S. 04-08-04, 12:29 PM	Problem is we can't judge how effective magic would be in the real world but we can make stats for real world weapons. In fact they already exist, so we can compare. Earth has no chance. They may be more powerfull in open warefare, but thats all. Just turn on the news to see how successful the technological advanced US Army is against guerilla tactics. And FR people would be very good at it because of magic. Also the FR has monsters which would be invulnerable in real world or can you tell me what the army would do against a single shadow? They can drop thousands of missiles and nukes on it and would only annoy it because it has to fly arround longer to get to its next victim. A single shadow can destroy a army base or metropolis and there is nothing real world troop can do against it.
Cunning Linguist 04-08-04, 12:38 PM	To mesure these things up, you have to use D20 modern rules, and when using D20 modern, a granade does XdX damage, so does a missile. Protection from arrows does protect you from bullets, but it does only grant DR 10 against bullets, so some damage would come past it. (bullets do damage between 1D6 to 2D10) Saying that a dragon only does so and so much damage, but a tank does unlimited damage, and has unlimited hitpoints and hardness of atleast 400 does not work. A M1A2 Abrams tank cannon does 10D12 points of Ballistic damage, crit on natural 20. No more no less. (It has a single rate of fire also, takes a standar action to reload it) So you have seen a Tank, and you know its hardcore stuff. Have you seen a Great Wyrm?
Mirtek 04-08-04, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by Droakor Anyone with an actual understanding of how much damage a 2000 lb explosive would do knows that a dragon, a kraken, hell a deity would be destroyed completely. The damage is known, it's in D20 modern. A 2000 lb explosive doesn't do any more damage than some of the magical/supernatural attacks a dragon, a kraken, hell a deity do already suffer and survive regulary back at home in Faerun. Dragonfire is more powerfull than a modern tank's 120 mm main gun. A divine blast is more powerfull than any missle your (well, except nuclear weapons) your carrier has avaible. Originally posted by Droakor You want to break out your rule books and start figuring out all the ins and outs go right ahead, but if any of you had actually witnessed such destruction you'd toss the books right out the window.And you have witnessed a divine blast and a red dragon's breath so that you do know that it does truly less damage than a real world weapon?Originally posted by Droakor *laugh* Sure your protection from arrows spell is going to stop a cruise missile or laser guided smart bombs... sure they will. Give me a break.Yes, that's exactly what these spells will do. Say bye, bye laser guiding systemOriginally posted by Droakor Also, you all talk about how this epic spell or that archmage or hey lets get 1000 vampires... please, I don't know what kind of world you guys play in but you make it sound like these things are run of the mill.Actually that are existing loopholes in the D&D rules, which make no sense. But they exist nonetheless. E.G. a Wight's spawn only takes mere 6 seconds. That was done to make it useable in combat, but actually makes no sense, since this would mean (if applied consistent) that all D&D worlds would have been already overtaken by millions of wights.
Selgaunt 04-08-04, 12:52 PM	Originally posted by Droakor This thread is hilarious. All you DnD fanatics thinking Faerun would actually have a chance is funny. Puh-leese. Anyone with a modicum of understanding of the destruction and power the modern military has knows that Toril would be a smoking crater in under a month. You want to break it down in game terms well then knock yourself out. This missile would only do xdx damage... its right here according to my book... Anyone with an actual understanding of how much damage a 2000 lb explosive would do knows that a dragon, a kraken, hell a deity would be destroyed completely. You want to break out your rule books and start figuring out all the ins and outs go right ahead, but if any of you had actually witnessed such destruction you'd toss the books right out the window. *laugh* Sure your protection from arrows spell is going to stop a cruise missile or laser guided smart bombs... sure they will. Give me a break. Also, you all talk about how this epic spell or that archmage or hey lets get 1000 vampires... please, I don't know what kind of world you guys play in but you make it sound like these things are run of the mill. "Yes the old run down warehouse in Baldur's Gate has 4000 undead in there. We've saved them up for just this occasion. Damn you earthlings, now you're gonna get it!" "Well you know I come from a family of seven brothers and six sisters and we gave up the farm to become epic level archmages. Life is so much more interesting now that we've done that." Come on, I understand that you want to defend your favorite DnD world but you have got to be kidding. I love how in your arrogance you say that we are naive to think that Faerun could ever beat an army from earth, but in reality you are doing the exact same thing as us... you're comparing the wo!!! There's absolutely no way you could prove that Earth would defeat Faerun!!! None!! Funny how you neglected to mention my post. what would your Oh so powerful army do if a mage would cast time stop...your army would be a bunch of lame ducks...i don,t care how powerful technology can get, it still can't compete against magic!!!
Alac Luin 04-08-04, 12:54 PM	Originally posted by Droakor Anyone with a modicum of understanding of the destruction and power the modern military has knows that Toril would be a smoking crater in under a month ..... Anyone with an actual understanding of how much damage a 2000 lb explosive would do knows that a dragon, a kraken, hell a deity would be destroyed completely. . Lets see, we (as in the US) bombed Bagdad repeatedly for a month (seveal months in the first Gulf War) and its still standing.... Sure, a 2000 pound bomb will desroy a dragon or a kraken, but delivering that bomb to said creature is the difficulty. Its hard to deliver Air to surface bomb to a creature that stays 1000 feat below the surface of the the water (in the case of the Kraken) Not to mention how hard it would be to drop one on a Dragon while in flight. Sure they could drop them on the dragon holes, and hope the resulting cave in will crush the dragon, but the spy satalights are not available to find the dragon holes. Faerun would take a serious beating, but unless nukes were used they would hardly be a smokeing crater. As for "run of the mill", it hardly has to be that. It would only take one 10th lvl Wizard with a wand of fireballs to stop the advance of an intire Armored division. How?, by takeing out thier fuel supply. Our modern military is compleatly dependent on fuel. Also must consider that Faerun has no fuel supplies that can be exploited. When I was in the miltary, it was said that for every one "combat" soldier, their were 7 support people. These numbers may not be compleatly acurate, but the military is highly dependent on supply lines, stop this supply line (cloase the portals) and our modern military is stoped dead in it's tracks.
burning_blood 04-08-04, 01:07 PM	Okay, I don't know FR very well, and I don't pretend to truly understand the real destructive power of a modern-day arsenal. I also skipped the second page of this thread, so this might have been said already. But it's really quite simple: "I wish that all the nuclear warheads possessed by the Earthlings would detonate right now, right where they are, simultaneously." End of war. Faerun wins. Possibly a few nukes would have already been brought into the FR universe and would cause some damage, but not nearly as much as the Earth would sustain; and given that Faerun is much bigger than the Earth and has magic to aid its ecological recovery, in a few decades any mess should be cleaned up nicely. It's also a fairly simple matter to change the wording of the wish to include only nukes in the Earth's universe. Meanwhile the Earth is reduced to a cold chunk of lifeless rock.
Droakor 04-08-04, 01:16 PM	Ohh the DnD fanatics are in an uproar... they're waving their 3.5 Dungeon Masters guide and Players Handbooks at me... along with all their modern d20 material. Listen believe what you will and defend your opinions as vehemently as you wish. And I shall keep mine. And in my opinion a gun will always beat a sword, a tank will always beat a knight on horse, a fighter jet will always kill a dragon, a submarine will always kill a Kraken, and modern technology will always defeat magic. Ever wonder why the deities of Faerun forbide technological advances (if that is the case)? One reason might be because mortals would become too powerful to contend with.
newbDM 04-08-04, 01:19 PM	Originally posted by Droakor Anyone with a modicum of understanding of the destruction and power the modern military has knows that Toril would be a smoking crater in under a month. Anything that they knew about for sure would be smoking ruin I already mentioned that all the cities etc would be nuked. This missile would only do xdx damage... its right here according to my book... We have to since Dragons don't really exist... Anyone with an actual understanding of how much damage a 2000 lb explosive would do knows that a dragon, a kraken, hell a deity would be destroyed completely. You speak like you have actual understanding of a 2000lb bombs destructive force... which is entirely possible... You have any actual understanding of a dragons breath? Or what kind of damage a Kraken can do? When was the last time you dropped a bomb on a diety... We have to use published material because thats all there is to use :P You want to break out your rule books and start figuring out all the ins and outs go right ahead, but if any of you had actually witnessed such destruction you'd toss the books right out the window. If diety's actually existed then you'd have toss all your theory out the window as warfare would change when one side can stop time, or change reality..... Also, you all talk about how this epic spell or that archmage or please Well There are seven Sisters, the Chosen, a bunch of Zulkirs, Halaster, Princes of Shade, Manshoon, how many do you think it would take for hit and run attacks to cause mischief... 1... thats all it would take.. "Yes the old run down warehouse in Baldur's Gate has 4000 undead in there. We've saved them up for just this occasion. Damn you earthlings, now you're gonna get it!" Only takes 1 vampire to make 1000... and funny thing is human troops need to sleep.. vampires don't... soon as soon as they bunk down... 1 misted vampire = alot of dead Humans. ALso note Szass Tam has been saving undead for hundreds of years... you think he's the only lich that does that??? With 5000 Wizards in Thay alone... how long would it take to raise troops from graveyards.... Come on, I understand that you want to defend your favorite DnD world but you have got to be kidding.[/QUOTE] SInce your trying to use real life experiences in a theorical argument, there isn't much to argue with you about, since you have to bring both sides to the same level. Since nobody could really fathom the power of a Diety in the real world... we have to bring the real world to the book world which pretty much voids everything I saw you write.
Derren S. 04-08-04, 01:23 PM	Originally posted by Droakor And in my opinion a gun will always beat a sword, a tank will always beat a knight on horse, a fighter jet will always kill a dragon, a submarine will always kill a Kraken, and modern technology will always defeat magic. Ever wonder why the deities of Faerun forbide technological advances (if that is the case)? One reason might be because mortals would become too powerful to contend with. If the bullets of the gun aren't stopped by a magical field, the knight not invisible with a brilliant energy spear, the fighter can actually lock on the dragon with its missiles and the sub is not outmanuvered by the much more manuverable kraken and technology can find ways to deal with things only vulnerable to magic then yes. But this is not the case. And gods did forbis technological advancment so that we don't end up with something like Shadowrun.
Another Gnome 04-08-04, 01:25 PM	Ohh the DnD fanatics are in an uproar... they're waving their 3.5 Dungeon Masters guide and Players Handbooks at me... along with all their modern d20 material. Listen believe what you will and defend your opinions as vehemently as you wish. And I shall keep mine. The difference is, we are stating the facts relevant to this debate (well, mostly). You are not. The entire thread is built upon an imaginary situation whose setup would be utterly absurd even if something like moving things to other realities was possible in the first place. There is no room for real world logic here. None whatsoever.
Rick Day 04-08-04, 01:26 PM	Um yeah that sums it up. I wish that bullets tickled not killed! :angel: This thread is crazy.
Baron Phylos 04-08-04, 02:46 PM	Originally posted by burning_blood "I wish that all the nuclear warheads possessed by the Earthlings would detonate right now, right where they are, simultaneously." End of war. Faerun wins. That wish has so many loopholes it would never be granted. 1-most Nuclear weapons are owned by governments and military organizations, technically, no "earthlings" owns them. 2-Nuclear devices need to implode before the can explode. asking one to simply "detonate"(which only refers to explosions, not implosions) wouldn't do much except destroy the bomb itself.
Sir_Mason_Dunne 04-08-04, 02:48 PM	Lets assume that an Explosive missle (be they singer missle or rocket propelled grenade) will be stopped by protection from arrows. The device will still explode, the spell may stop the shrapnel but, the concusive force will still injure if not kill. Not to mention that the fire damage they could recieve. I notice that the various defenses erected by FR are lead by marginally evil creatures. Somehow I don't seem them risking themselves to defend Waterdeep or any of the other "good" lands in Faerun. Once all the uber-magi got together to fight the invaders (Earth), the evil would use the oportunity to take advantade. As soon as Elminster and the other defender of FR turn their attention twords Earth, Zhentel Keep will invade the Dale Lands, and probably win. (The guide themselves say that Shadowdale owes its survival mainly to Elminster). I believe the people in this argument are heavily discounting any sort of political relationship that would develop. FR would Never, Ever unite like everyone seems to think it will. Can you see followers of Helm uniting with followers of Bane? You could make a similar argument for earth, but earth has a realistic chance of creating a strictly military alliance, especially if they precieve FR as a threat, it has happened allready (WWII anyone?) and it can happen again. Politics would play a critical Role in any sort of Invasion.
Cunning Linguist 04-08-04, 03:04 PM	You could make a similar argument for earth, but earth has a realistic chance of creating a strictly military alliance, especially if they precieve FR as a threat, it has happened allready (WWII anyone?) and it can happen again. WWII had only a few nations band togheter. It was not anything like a world alliance against facisem. FR would Never, Ever unite like everyone seems to think it will. Can you see followers of Helm uniting with followers of Bane? Why not? Do you think that Pakistan will allie with India? Or Taiwan with China? North Korea with USA? These are groupe I waged would have a lot less to do with each other then Banites and Helmites if word disorder was on the rim, rather then a invasion of another planet.
rizzard 04-08-04, 03:09 PM	don't know if this has been brought up(not reading three pages of lengthy replies. but our superior tactical weaponry now days mainly relies on a global net work of sattelites being on toril any sattelite dependant arms would not function doesn't mean we couldn't throw nukes and carpet bomb them we would win at a high cost i think. and considering the oncoming global oil crisis on our own planet invading toril would be a good idea
newbDM 04-08-04, 03:17 PM	Originally posted by Sir_Mason_Dunne Lets assume that an Explosive missle (be they singer missle or rocket propelled grenade) will be stopped by protection from arrows. The device will still explode, the spell may stop the shrapnel but, the concusive force will still injure if not kill. Not to mention that the fire damage they could recieve. I notice that the various defenses erected by FR are lead by marginally evil creatures. Somehow I don't seem them risking themselves to defend Waterdeep or any of the other "good" lands in Faerun. Once all the uber-magi got together to fight the invaders (Earth), the evil would use the oportunity to take advantade. As soon as Elminster and the other defender of FR turn their attention twords Earth, Zhentel Keep will invade the Dale Lands, and probably win. (The guide themselves say that Shadowdale owes its survival mainly to Elminster). I believe the people in this argument are heavily discounting any sort of political relationship that would develop. FR would Never, Ever unite like everyone seems to think it will. Can you see followers of Helm uniting with followers of Bane? You could make a similar argument for earth, but earth has a realistic chance of creating a strictly military alliance, especially if they precieve FR as a threat, it has happened allready (WWII anyone?) and it can happen again. Politics would play a critical Role in any sort of Invasion. I'd like to point out that Zhentil Keep came to the aid of Rasheman when the Tuirgan (Spelling?) Horde was allowed through Thay. I'd like to point out that Shade assisted Evereska to kill the Phaeriim (Spelling) Sure it was for their own agenda but so is destroying earth. And likewise it also depends on where the attack took place. Because good countries wouldn't allow Thay to fall they'd help out if they could...whether Thay would allow them too depends on how well they were holding off. Evil Creatuers such as Demons can be bound and told what to do. Or Supliment any word Balor or Pit Fiend with Aaismar (Solar etc) get to the same affect....though 1 single Solar ... that would be scary...
Derren S. 04-08-04, 04:10 PM	Don't forget the moral impact summoned creatures have. Many christian people will have qualms about attacking angels and will flee in terror when the devil himself attacks them (Balor/Pitfiend).
Sir_Mason_Dunne 04-08-04, 05:02 PM	So you are saying that there is no possibility that ANY of the various Evil or Rival factions would take advantage of this situation to settle old scores? All the people of Faerun would just hold hands and sing cumbieya (sp?) as they march off to war? Archangel allready established that Earth is united. That is not the point. He also said that Earth has some intelligence about FR, EVERYTHING might not be a suprise. I don't believe that any good society would condone summoning Pit Fiends or other demons, and I doubt that they would work with them. (forgive me, my knowledge of FR is somewhat limited, I havent read many of the books). But the mere nature of the various allignment procludes cooperation. Can you picture a Paladin fighting alongside a Pit Fiend? I can't.
trentlanthier 04-08-04, 06:58 PM	Earth slags a City they are killing Harpers, Zhents, Cyric Clerics, ArchMages, Elves, Thayan Enclaves etc etc etc. I think some sides would side with Earth but for the most part no evil group wants to be number one... and Earth just won't allow that. YES Archangel said that Earth is united he never said that FAERUN Can't Unit. The conversation is going around and around... yes 2000lbs are pretty impressive but if you saw Reign of Fire you saw what a few dragons could do.... With Earth Destroying Followers the FR gods would be forced to unit forces... (Ever read the Dragonlance book where Chaos attacks... far greater power, and the Evil gods and good gods.. arch rivals and hated enemy's to fight a greater threat.) Time and time again history has shown us that a group of people who are not united unite in the face of a common threat... U.S. for instance - Several Groups that don't agree... look at New York... they all bonded together in times of trouble. Africa during the Zulu wars. Mongolia before the Kahn united the Tribes. Wish and Miracle would end the fight, along with Time Stop Meteor Swarm, Heat Metal, Mass Invisibility, Summon Monsters, Improved Invisiblity...haste..undead, ethereal monsters and many other reasons give Toril the advantage. The only place Earth would win would be the Air. Whales sing Krakens don't. ANyways this conversation is going around and around obviously each side can't convince the other side.
Kain's avatar 04-08-04, 09:46 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek A torpedo can't kill a kraken with a single hit. A torpedo will do XdX damage, that's all. Who's to say XdX isn't enough to kill it? Didn't think about that? Considering that a cruise missile does 20d6 in D20 modern(should be way more, I thought that was a sidewinder?), and that explosives are several times more deadly underwater, I'd say a single torpedo would easily do at least 80d6 to the kraken. Again: Modern weapons don't kill with a single hit. And a dragon can easily avoid thos missles with a simple protection from arrows spells, since a F-15 doesn't have any magical AMRRAMs As moronic as it is to pretend that 40lbs of c4 with tungsten fragments wouldn't tear apart a dragon, lets do so for your sake. A AMRRAM will do probably in excess of 40d6 to a dragon. Maybe not one hit then, but only a few, and todays fighter jets have plenty. How does protection from missiles stop arrows, by blocking them right? Whos to say that it works vs explosives... Perhaps it stops the missile, by blowing it up a few feet away from them, inflicting the damage anyway. Except that they would collide with invisible, indetecable walls appearing in the air in front of them. Since when did Wall of Force have a range of 30,000+ feet? And again: No. XdX damage, can't penetrate protective spells. Fire damage. Sonic damage. Crushing damage. Piercing damage. Slashing damage. All in one bomb. A 5,000 lbs bunker buster bomb probably would do in excess of 100d6, judging from d20 modern rules. Even adamantium can't withstand that. And can't beat the most simple anti-arrow spells. Yeah, only 1 out of 200 or so people on Faerūn have that. How do they know to have it cast anyway when you can't even see the shooter yet? Couldn'z get through DR X/magic Yeah. :rolleyes: 20d6+ is gonna get stopped by DR 20/magic. I dont think so.
mortellan 04-08-04, 10:00 PM	Only takes 1 vampire to make 1000... and funny thing is human troops need to sleep.. vampires don't... soon as soon as they bunk down... 1 misted vampire = alot of dead Humans. you have got to be kidding me. vampires DO sleep...in the day...duh....one piece of wood or a room full of sunlight=alot of dead vampires.
WayneLigon 04-08-04, 10:42 PM	I'd say Faerun would win hands down, thanks to magic. A few well-worded wishes takes care of the large problems: 'I wish the strange devices of the invaders did not work.' That sort of thing. Even without resorting to that, you have a tremendous advantage. But lets assume all the Epic mages and Chosen and everything else like that is off at a big convention in Sigil getting blasted. Faerun still wins, and wins easily. Add in three or four Adult dragons. The Realms has those in abundant supply. All it takes is for those 1st-4th level (which will be the vast, vast majority of them) infantrymen and pilots to even see one, and they're screaming and choking in fear . They just lay down and pee on themselves for 4d6 rounds. Anyone piloting a plane or driving a tank will automatically crash. The rest - all the rest, since I doubt there will be any 20th levels in the entire US Army - will be shaken since there is no way they're making a DC 32 Will save (they're almost all Warriors, so they have really terrible Will saves). The air superiority of the invading forces will probably be seemingly the most invicible force the Terrans can mount. They are fast, maneuvable, and they have all those missles. Not so; planes are surprisingly delicate things. All you need are some air elementals conjured by some lower-level mages - even small ones will do - and have them rip that canopy off or carry some small rocks or sand into the jet intake. Boom, dead aircraft. Or just have someone cast Wall of Force in front of one. Boom. All the missles and firepower in the world can't help you if you cannot perceive your foe. Yes, a missle or a chain gun might even tear apart a large dragon.. but you have to have a pilot capable of firing said missle. He can't make the save against dragonfear, so even the ace-number one coolest most level-headed pilot in the world will be pooping his flightsuit the second he lays eyes on a dragon. He's paralysed for several seconds.. then he's dead. Tanks? A vampire in gaseous form goes in, five new recruits come out. In fact, with all the night-roaming beasties out there, the minute night falls whatever camp or base has been set up is gone within an hour or so. Five or six Shadows could wipe out it out. They can't be seen easily, and the sleeping infantrymen are dead and Shadows themselves before they can wake up and sound any warning. And then there's that incorporeal feature that Terrans will have no real defence again. No ghost-touched guns for you guys. Invisible Stalkers and teleporting demons take out the leaders, leaving only the fresh young scared Lt's in command. They surrender to the high CHA Harper bards who have Charms and Suggestions going.
Taelohn 04-08-04, 11:00 PM	Missiles, bombs, tanks, etc. should definitely do more damage than shown in d20 Modern, from what's been said thus far... however, that's not really an issue. A modern military force would mostly certainly have a massive advantage in a conventional war. However, they're not so well equipped to deal with other types of tactics. Note how effective guerilla warfare was in Vietnam (and now Iraq, apparently) against the far more advanced and better trained Amercian forces. And those are mostly peasants sneaking around with guns. Replace those with super-genius archmages and various types of monsters, and the earthlings would be ill-equipped to deal with that kind of battle. They could still win if they just decided to carpet-bomb all the cities, or even resort to nuclear weapons. But if they're trying to simply take out hostile forces, while keeping buildings and civilians intact, as in most wars - they'd never pull it off.
mortellan 04-08-04, 11:20 PM	remeber this Earth against FR, not just the United States. If it turned out they were up against Undead, Dragons, Demons, Evil Extremist Priesthoods, Combative spellcasting women, etc. etc....basically anything but conventional male troops....then you'd be SURE the Russian, Chinese and other nations would be scorching that planet rather than trying to bother conquering it.
Red_Rapida 04-08-04, 11:23 PM	Here are some wizard spells that give faerun an advantage. Explosive Runes- Cast this on a note of surrender.. Whoever reads this is gonna be surprised. Lesser Irongaurd negates lets you pass thru any metal objects or let metal objects pass thru you. That negates bullets.. Horrible Army of the Dead {epic} Thats plenty of skeletons on your team, causing chaos in the enemy's base. Tolodine's Killing Wind {epic} This should be able to eat thru most metals. 20d6 acid damage and all. Plus you can reshape it. Greater Invisibility- It lets you stay invisible even if you do attack. Sphere of Ultimate Destruction- I dont have the spell itself but it says "Sphere disintegrates everything it touches" Ok so a mage casts extended lesser irongaurd. Then teleports to a big base. Casts horrible army of the dead, instant undead army. Then casts tolodine's killing wind to take out any other annoyances. All the while his invisible. :D Ok now for some cleric and druid spells that will help faerun win. Fortunate Fate= Target immediatly recieves a heal if killed by damage. And it lasts 10/level, level 7 spell so thats a long time. Probaly targeted at the mage i mentioned before. Elemental Swarm= Oh this is a nice one. How about some air elementals for the planes and water for the carriers. Rusting Grasp- Just cast this shapechange into a small bird and land on a tank. Fun fun fun Disintergrate= Just disintergrate, im sure you can think of something to use this for.. i know i can. Entropic Sheild- Gives all ranged attacks a 20% miss chance. Pretty good for a level 1 spell. Ethrealness- Walk right into the enemy base with 1 creature per 3 levels, and they cant do a thing about it. Shatter- 10 lbs a caster level. That would smash a decently heavy object with a high level character. Banishment- They are from another plane right? Poof they are back home. Wow i got really bored.. you couldnt tell could you? :D
mortellan 04-08-04, 11:30 PM	i liked the ironguard idea. it was very obvious and noone before you mentioned it. Another thing about magic....demographics. How many spellcaster are there per 1000 people in Faerun? per 10000? etc. Then you have to wonder how many epic spellcasters are there per 1000 spellcasters and so forth. now consider the Earth army, from a planet of 5 billion... just .005% of the population is an army of 25 million. Spread out over multiple fronts, thats ALOT to handle for even an epic caster or his summoned baddies. I'd favor the assassination/subversion techniques for FR, Earth wins conventional war.
Red_Rapida 04-08-04, 11:45 PM	Sneaky attacks could work, greater invisibility and teleport without error especially. I found another spell that would hurt any encampment. Raise Volcano Conjuration (Creation) [Earth, Fire] Level: Drd 9 Components: V, S, M, DF, XP Casting Time: 1 round Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Effect: One volcano (see text) Duration: Concentration Saving Throw: Reflex partial, see text Spell Resistance: No The potent raise volcano spell opens a fissure deep in the earth that leads down to an underlying pool of magma and causes it to explode upward, creating a relatively small (but still quite devastating) artificial volcano. You select a point to be the center of the volcano you create. Immediately, the ground in a 10-foot radius around that point swells into a cone 10 feet high, with a small vent at the peak. Every creature in this area must make a Reflex save or fall to the base of the cone, taking 1d6 points of damage. Structures in the area take 8d6 points of damage. One round after the vent appears, an 80-foot-radius area around the center of the spell's effect is struck with a terrific tremor that duplicates the effect of an earthquake spell. At the same time, gouts of lava and ash blast from the central cone. Any creature inside of the cone (falling or flying up) takes 20d6 fire damage each round they remain inside the cone with no saving throw. Creatures and objects directly above the cone's rim (to a height of 10 feet per caster level) and within 10 feet of the cone's rim also suffer this fire damage, but they can make Reflex saving throws each round they remain in the danger zone to take half damage. Each round you concentrate, the radius of cone and the radius of the earthquake effect grows by 5 feet, and the top of cone rises 10 feet. Starting on round 4, the earthquake zone is pelted with burning chunks of molten rock, and all creatures and objects in this area take 2d6 points of fire damage per round (with a successful Reflex save negating the damage). Starting on round 8, the entire earthquake zone is blanketed in a thick cloud of ash and smoke to a height of 5 feet per caster level; all creatures in this area suffer as if caught within a wall of smoke spell. The volcano ceases to grow once it reaches its maximum radius of 5 feet per caster level. The earthquake zone ceases to grow once it reaches its maximum radius of 80 feet per caster level. The volcano's growth also ends if the spell's magic is dispelled or you cease concentrating on the spell. Once the spell's duration ends, the volcano stops erupting, and the cone collapses into a pit as deep and wide as the cone. One round later the pit closes up; anything inside the pit when it closes is crushed. Those inside the pit take 20d6 points of damage and become entombed in the ground; if they cannot escape via magic or burrowing, they remain there until they suffocate, die of thirst or hunger, or are rescued by outside forces. Material Component: A block of obsidian that has been magically shaped into a miniature volcano, the caldera of which must be filled with rubies totaling no less than 5,000 gp. XP Cost: 5,000 XP. Its one i found on the wizards main site.
Gellion 04-09-04, 01:15 AM	After both sides beat each other up. The little green men from the planet Guhetuetwrhjjfkiiizzzxxzxzxxzxzxz would come and take over both Earth and Faerun with their Uber advanced technology that works no matter what world it is on.:)
Reles Villian 04-09-04, 04:08 AM	I'm bored so I'll add to this debate. Earth vs Faruen?? Earth hands down. Raise volcano? A sniper could take him out before he got the spell off. Or finished it. Invisible assassins? Last time I remember people gave off heat and heat can be picked up via scanners. Not to mention it would be close to impossible to assassinte world leaders. Ok so a mage casts extended lesser irongaurd. Then teleports to a big base. Casts horrible army of the dead, instant undead army. Then casts tolodine's killing wind to take out any other annoyances. All the while his invisible. To bad he cant teleport into a unknown location. And I dont even think Telamont would have a high enough DC to get off all those spells. Ironguard? No worries ever heard of flame-throwers. Protection from arrows, agasint modern day weaponry?? *dies of laughter*. Automatic weapons do to much damage per round for protections spells to really stand a chance. Protection from arrows can only protect so much, and after 10 points of damage (100 maxium) it fades away. One icbm does 20d6, imagine getting attacked from over 500 of those with one attack. Throw in some laser or mmW radar guided Hellfire or Maverick missles and you got yourself havoc. Adult dragons? Tank shells do 5d12 per shell, they would eat through all sorts of protection a dragon could muster. Or a vulcan cannon it fires 100 rounds every second, and one round can damage you for 6d6 damage. Do the math and tell me a dragon could withstand that! Ever heard of a LOSAT weapon system? Let me give you a brief descprition. The LOSAT weapon system consists of an expanded capacity HMMWV chassis, hyper-velocity Kinetic Energy Missiles, resupply trailer, and a second generation FLIR/TV acquisition system. The LOSAT system is a highly mobile, all-weather, day/night, direct-fire anti-armor system capable of defeating threat forces at a range of several kilometers. Who says science hasnt been put to good use! Most Mariners and U.S Army infantry carry M-16A4 weapons, regular human troops and even drow troops are armed with swords and bows thats hardly a challenge. They would get gunned down even before they can get into range with there bows and arrows. Not to mention snipers with the new M-40A3 with the range of 1,000 yards, mages would get gunned down even before they started there somantic gestures. Gernades do 6d6 damage each. Imagaine 1,000 troops armed with gernade launchers attacking rushing troops. One Atom bomb would destory Fauren as a whole, how could you stop that? I just dont see how anyone could stand agasint Earth, our technology is way to advanced.
Archangel 04-09-04, 04:11 AM	For those that don't know I am the thread starter so: I said it before and since people are not reading all pages I guess I'll say it again: NO GODs will meddle directly, and Earth is here to conquer, not destroy! Also as I said Portal cannot be closed(but somebodies idea of Wall of Force on them is a good one)! As I said Nukes will be used for defense if they lose this war! WHY this conquest? Overpopulation, Oil crisis, Magic items in Faerun, etc. ! Also whole Earth is not united but the most important countries are. Pakistan and India are probably not those countries. They have Nukes but since those weapons are not going to be used these countries are not needed. USA and NATO, China, Russia, Izrael, and a couple of Islamic coutries are all that is needed. Imagine Islamic fanatics in Thay running to the Tower of Sorcere and blowing them selves up with C4(a lot of C4). Of course after Thay sets up a large Wall of Force around the city to stop Cruise missiles and the like. Also stop with the Wishes, in whole of Faerun history they never won a war with a Wish so they won't win this one either. Also remember the Tuigan Horde, a mass of cavalry men with sword and bow. They managed to compeat with half of Faerun and all those high lvl wizards! Now consider Earth military that is like 100 times more powerful and numerous that the Tuigan horde! Also Earth will not attack whole of Fearun at once, they will go from country to country, and certainly try to make alliances! If not who will work on Oil fields later or explain and teach magic? As for supplies, Fearun has enough food and water resources, remember it is not poluted! Only fuel will be the problem but with big pat of the world cooperating together supplies could be organized to come through portals easily. Also consider some points: Faerun mages and leaders cannot pick up their phones and call all other mages and leaders to make alliances and agreements! Also many monsters like Dragons won't bother with this invasion if the Earth leaves their caves alone! To them a human is a human, if he uses magic or technology. If later after the war is over these Earth soldiers enter Dragon lairs they will fare no better or worse that any adventurer that came before them with mighty magic and weapons! Shadows and other such monsters would be effective but consider this: while clerics(Evil) will control the ones that they send all the thousands that will spawn will be out of control and will attack one side as well as the other, I don't believe clerics they would risk that! As for Dragons and Angels and Demons that do fight: somebody mentioned a tank shell does 10d12 damage(is that by the rules?) and since there would be 10 000+ tanks those angels and demons and dragons will not survive. Also Protection from arrows: It protects from bullets(only 100 damage max is prevented), maybe(look in the d20 Modern, there a variation of the spell that includes bullets), but certainly will not protect against missiles and tank shells! Also there are Radar guided missiles that would hit dragons and any flying creature from 20 miles away, and any Sea Monsters also from many miles away(using sonar)! Also somebody said Air is a superiority of Earth, not true, also add Navy and Armor units. Also helicopters of today can survive direct rocket hits, a measly fireball is not a threat! Also imagine the military industry back on Earth that is making per coutry at least one Destroyer a day, probably 10+ plains per day and like 50+ tanks per day. Also they could make 1 carrier per month! Come on FR defenders, you must do better that this for FR to survive! Open warfare in not an option only disguises and charming, domination and the like. Probably no matter how much they tried Earth military couldn't kill all the high level individuals on Faerun. So those individuals could day after day make strike against the conquering armies. Also consider this: why would evil wizards even fight against Earth when they can let them conquer Faerun and then use charm magics to put themselves in charge of the now order. Much easier that way then all the ways they are trying to conquer Faerun now!
Derren S. 04-09-04, 04:48 AM	Originally posted by Reles Villian Raise volcano? A sniper could take him out before he got the spell off. Or finished it. And how should the sniper know where the invisible wizard is vasting silently? Invisible assassins? Last time I remember people gave off heat and heat can be picked up via scanners. Not to mention it would be close to impossible to assassinte world leaders. Illusions are capable of creating false thermal images, so they can also mask it. Impossible to assasinate world leaders? Scry, Teleport, Times Stop-> Death world leader To bad he cant teleport into a unknown location. And I dont even think Telamont would have a high enough DC to get off all those spells. Simply scry and the location isn't unknown anymore. Also you don't even need epic spells. A cloudkill is enough. Or simply send a shadow or wight in. I talone kan kill the whole earth. Ironguard? No worries ever heard of flame-throwers. When they have o resort to flamethrowers they loose their range advantage and thats very bad for them because in close combat FR is better. And fire resistence is very common. Protection from arrows, agasint modern day weaponry?? *dies of laughter*. And again someone who dosen't read spell descriptions. PfA stops bullets, period. Automatic weapons do to much damage per round for protections spells to really stand a chance. 2w8 damage isnt't much more damage than DR 10 can stop. Protection from arrows can only protect so much, and after 10 points of damage (100 maxium) it fades away. One icbm does 20d6, imagine getting attacked from over 500 of those with one attack. Throw in some laser or mmW radar guided Hellfire or Maverick missles and you got yourself havoc. So you have to shoot with icbms at infantery soldiers? Great tactic for base defense. Adult dragons? Tank shells do 5d12 per shell, they would eat through all sorts of protection a dragon could muster. And how does a tank hit a flying dragon?[quote] Or a vulcan cannon it fires 100 rounds every second, and one round can damage you for 6d6 damage. Do the math and tell me a dragon could withstand that! Because the damage is not for a single bullet but for a burst which lasts 3-4 seconds, the dragon can do much more damage and you have the hit the dragon first and foremost. It doesn't have a low AC not mentioning the layers of protective spells.[quote] Most Mariners and U.S Army infantry carry M-16A4 weapons, regular human troops and even drow troops are armed with swords and bows thats hardly a challenge. They would get gunned down even before they can get into range with there bows and arrows. So no flamethrowers. Then a bunch of PfM protected people can take down a platoon, as can some trolls or other regenerating things. And of course, when they are invisible gunning them down is rather hard. Not to mention snipers with the new M-40A3 with the range of 1,000 yards, mages would get gunned down even before they started there somantic gestures. When snipers have time to set up and to aim before the wizard finished casting. And even then they have to hope that the contagincy doesn't activate. Gernades do 6d6 damage each. Imagaine 1,000 troops armed with gernade launchers attacking rushing troops. Only to be all killed by one hungry spectre. One Atom bomb would destory Fauren as a whole, how could you stop that? Burning_Blood had a good idea. I just dont see how anyone could stand agasint Earth, our technology is way to advanced. Because magic>technology because it isn't limited the laws of nature. Shadows and other such monsters would be effective but consider this: while clerics(Evil) will control the ones that they send all the thousands that will spawn will be out of control and will attack one side as well as the other, I don't believe clerics they would risk that! No, the spawn in under controll of the creating shadow which is controlled by the cleric. Also who said about using that on faerun? Send one of those through the portal and within days nothing would live arround the earth side of the portal. No more supplies for the earth army, no ammunition, no fuel. That alone should take care of it. Also there are Radar guided missiles that would hit dragons and any flying creature from 20 miles away Afaik radar can't pick up living things including dragons. Also helicopters of today can survive direct rocket hits, a measly fireball is not a threat! Except that measily fire balls are as strong and even stronger than missiles. As for Dragons and Angels and Demons that do fight: somebody mentioned a tank shell does 10d12 damage(is that by the rules?) and since there would be 10 000+ tanks those angels and demons and dragons will not survive. Yes, thats by the rules. And they would survive because of magical protections like invisibility and teleport so that they can't even shoot them. And they do enough damage to destroy 1 tank/round. More if they use area effects.
Mirtek 04-09-04, 06:07 AM	Originally posted by Taelohn Missiles, bombs, tanks, etc. should definitely do more damage than shown in d20 Modern, from what's been said thus far... however, that's not really an issue. How can you know that? D20 Modern tells us that a tank's main gun does as much damage as a magical fireball. As long as you can't produce a magical fireball and prove that it's less powerfull than a tank's gun you can't say that the damage in D20 modern is wrong.Originally posted by Archangel Also remember the Tuigan Horde, a mass of cavalry men with sword and bow. They managed to compeat with half of Faerun and all those high lvl wizards! Now consider Earth military that is like 100 times more powerful and numerous that the Tuigan horde! No, they didn't. The managed to compeat with annother non-magic using army and when they tried to invade Faerun they were beaten by the western alliance with an army that was outnumbered 1:5 by the Tuigans but made plenty of use of low-mid level wizardsOriginally posted by Reles Villian Raise volcano? A sniper could take him out before he got the spell off. Or finished it. A sniper could neither see him (invisible) nor hurt him (protection from arrows, iron guard) Originally posted by Reles Villian Invisible assassins? Last time I remember people gave off heat and heat can be picked up via scanners. Not to mention it would be close to impossible to assassinte world leaders. Not with scyring/greater teleport and suicide assassins armed with some wands.Originally posted by Reles Villian To bad he cant teleport into a unknown location. And I dont even think Telamont would have a high enough DC to get off all those spells. ScryingOriginally posted by Reles Villian Ironguard? No worries ever heard of flame-throwers. Low range weapons, can easily be neagted by protection from fire.Originally posted by Reles Villian Protection from arrows, agasint modern day weaponry?? *dies of laughter*. And aftern that dies of a sword upon discovering that alls his pistols and assault rifles are indeed stoped by protection from arrows.Originally posted by Reles Villian Automatic weapons do to much damage per round for protections spells to really stand a chance. No. Weapons on aircrafts and tanks certainly, but automatic weapons carried by infantry will have real problems with PfA and even more with ironguardOriginally posted by Reles Villian Protection from arrows can only protect so much, and after 10 points of damage (100 maxium) it fades away. One icbm does 20d6, imagine getting attacked from over 500 of those with one attack. Throw in some laser or mmW radar guided Hellfire or Maverick missles and you got yourself havoc.You have come really far if that's your only way to kill some lousy infantry armed with swords and bows..Originally posted by Reles Villian Adult dragons? Tank shells do 5d12 per shell, they would eat through all sorts of protection a dragon could muster.Average 33 damage per hit. 33 damage which can't beat the dragon's DR and thus a dragon can take quite a few hits before dying. And note that we aren't talking about some dragons flying toward the tanks, but some dragons teleporting right in the middle of a group of tanks..Originally posted by Reles Villian a vulcan cannon it fires 100 rounds every second, and one round can damage you for 6d6 damage. Do the math and tell me a dragon could withstand that! 6d6 = 21 average damage, a dragon could withsand that. A vulcan canon in D&D doesn't do 3,600d6 per round..Originally posted by Reles Villian Most Mariners and U.S Army infantry carry M-16A4 weapons, Just the weapons who can't beat the protection spells. .Originally posted by Reles Villian Not to mention snipers with the new M-40A3 with the range of 1,000 yards, mages would get gunned down even before they started there somantic gestures. Sniper couldn't see the mage and even if he could, the bullet would pass through the mage like through empty air. .Originally posted by Reles Villian Gernades do 6d6 damage each. Imagaine 1,000 troops armed with gernade launchers attacking rushing troops. Nice slaughter, but only to die too after being hit by a fire storm or running into some incorperal creatures.Originally posted by Reles Villian One Atom bomb would destory Fauren as a whole, how could you stop that? One Atom Bomb wouldn't destroy a planet.
mortellan 04-09-04, 06:56 AM	So far its Earth against an invisible army of Faerunian monsters and spellcasters. It still comes down to demographics. There isn't enough effective spellcasters and dragons to defend the whole of Faerun against a planetary attack. Effective meaning of the level to pull off half the stunts proposed, while the Earth militaries are all superiorally equipped in contrast. The undead angles while very good I must say, are only effective at night while Earth is quite good at fighting at any time of the day. 1000 soldiers turned into vampires have to go somewhere when the sun comes up, or they are dust. I do favor the hit and run tactics used involving assassination and sabotage, but killing world leaders on Earth wouldn't be as demoralizing as it would be if Elminster or Khelben got sniped. The best bet is charms and domination, which would ultimately fail since orders countermanding the War would be questioned by a global alliance.
mortellan 04-09-04, 07:03 AM	Another matter on demographics, while Faerun has an advantage in the healing category, most of the other spells employed are not standard to every spellcasting being (maybe except magic missile @_@). Unless rapidly distributed and taught, not every wizard will know invisibility, ironguard, wall of force, etc. Conversely, most of armaments proposed for the Earth side are standard issue.
Archangel 04-09-04, 07:10 AM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Archangel Also remember the Tuigan Horde, a mass of cavalry men with sword and bow. They managed to compeat with half of Faerun and all those high lvl wizards! Now consider Earth military that is like 100 times more powerful and numerous that the Tuigan horde! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, they didn't. The managed to compeat with annother non-magic using army and when they tried to invade Faerun they were beaten by the western alliance with an army that was outnumbered 1:5 by the Tuigans but made plenty of use of low-mid level wizards So Zhents don't have wizards and clerics, and Cormyr's War Wizards, and Dales? Not 1:5 Alliance used Orcs and a lot of them! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Reles Villian Ironguard? No worries ever heard of flame-throwers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Low range weapons, can easily be neagted by protection from fire But these spells can absorb only so much! Druids have Immunity to elements but there aren't that many druids, and they don't work easily with others! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Reles Villian Protection from arrows, agasint modern day weaponry?? *dies of laughter*. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And aftern that dies of a sword upon discovering that alls his pistols and assault rifles are indeed stoped by protection from arrows. But you forget there aren't enough wizards to cast all these spells! Also FR armies don't use modern day tactics, they would all get out on a large field and die by tanks, planes and artilliery! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Reles Villian Automatic weapons do to much damage per round for protections spells to really stand a chance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Weapons on aircrafts and tanks certainly, but automatic weapons carried by infantry will have real problems with PfA and even more with ironguard As I said before PfA don't stop bullets since there is a similar spell in d20 Modern and it says that it stops bullets! Also Ironguard is a good spell but how long does it last, is it personal spell or not, rubber bullets anyone? Not with scyring/greater teleport and suicide assassins armed with some wands. quote: Now explain to me how can somebody just teleport a person without teleporting himself? Also suicide assassin? what one fireball and that is it? A wizard with Constingency is going to be more effective that this! Average 33 damage per hit. 33 damage which can't beat the dragon's DR and thus a dragon can take quite a few hits before dying. And note that we aren't talking about some dragons flying toward the tanks, but some dragons teleporting right in the middle of a group of tanks.. What DR 10/magic. Well then its only 23 damage per hit. Also look up my last post on Dragons! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Reles Villian Not to mention snipers with the new M-40A3 with the range of 1,000 yards, mages would get gunned down even before they started there somantic gestures. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sniper couldn't see the mage and even if he could, the bullet would pass through the mage like through empty air. . OK invisibility is good defense but Ironguard is not PHB spell so very little mages acctually know it! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Reles Villian One Atom bomb would destory Fauren as a whole, how could you stop that? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One Atom Bomb wouldn't destroy a planet Will you all please stop with the Atom Bomb thing. Earth is here to conquer, not destroy! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Invisible assassins? Last time I remember people gave off heat and heat can be picked up via scanners. Not to mention it would be close to impossible to assassinte world leaders. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Illusions are capable of creating false thermal images, so they can also mask it. Impossible to assasinate world leaders? Scry, Teleport, Times Stop-> Death world leader What Scry into another world, people they nothing about, I don't think so! Invisibility doesn't mask thermal images! No, the spawn in under controll of the creating shadow which is controlled by the cleric. Also who said about using that on faerun? Send one of those through the portal and within days nothing would live arround the earth side of the portal. No more supplies for the earth army, no ammunition, no fuel. That alone should take care of it. That doesn't mean it will order him to go along with him. Even if the Shadow is under comand of a Evil Cleric it doesn't mean it doesn't hate him like any other mortal. It would probably just order those spawns to return and kill its master!
Another Gnome 04-09-04, 07:40 AM	Military commanders can't hide back on Earth and claim to be in charge of things as long-range communications are significantly weakened if not entirely blocked a) by the lack of satellite and other telecommunications network on Toril and b) because even short-range transimissions can't travel through portals. And the numbers. 25 million soldiers marching through portals that can move only a handful of people through at a time (and don't get me started with aircraft carriers)? Even after all those people have somehow got through in any orderly way, stationed in their proper bases (which of course need to be set up first), who's feeding them after that? Are they planting and harvesting their own food, or transporting it from Earth? Where are they dumping all the waste? Where do they take the injured and the dead? There is no possible way of arranging the support lines for an invading force of anything near that size. Regardless, when this is about "What if no Faerūnian cared anything about anything and nobody could do anything and the Earth forces can do everything and have limitless supplies and everyone is happy with invading and enslaving and slaughtering an entire planet and nobody on Earth takes advantage of the absence of 25 million soldiers and aircraft carriers are being carried through portals by the soldiers who can at most take 850 lb. of gear with them", then sure, I'll side up with Earth any time. ( :D )
Shodo Panda 04-09-04, 08:09 AM	Basically with those rules. 1) Earth will win because Earth is allowed to ally but Faerun not not to mention that all of Earth's technology based on satellites orbiting the earth seems to work too. And language barriers and US soldiers taking command from French officers and vice versa seem to be gone. 2) Most of the species and races aren't allowed to mingle like dragons. 3) Gods aren't allowed to meddle, Faerun is Faerun because of the Gods and suddenly they don't care anymore. Earth is a threat for the Gods, they'll bring their own pantheon along to this world thus ending the current God's rule. Under those rules Earth will win, Faerun is too crippled to fight back decently. Druids and all will work together, they will do the guerilla attacks when they walk in the forests. Not to mention the danger some forests themselves are. Look at the neutral alignment description, a good person is better than an evil person thus the good & neutral species will work together all by all not under same control. Everyone doing their own thing but that can also be quite effective. Jungle and forest fighting just got a hell of a lot more dangerous. Sorry sir, I can't crawl through these bushes cause those plants vines are suddenly strangling me. Dragons aren't dumb, how long do you think they'll wait to not meddle, Earth invades for power, do you think they won't put 2 and 2 together that after faerun is taken over Earth will come for dragons and the Gods? They are the most powerfull beings. Neutral and Good dragons will fight alongside Faerunian races. Evil dragons will just do what they did before, fight them for the sheer fun and danger they represent to them. I'll give in that they might kill Faerun fighters too, but they'll take out both. Evil organizations will help here and there, they'll fight earth on their own and sometimes help the other cities. Why, well how much chance will they have against an army and organization that just enslaved Faerun, what they couldn't do. Take those rules away Faerun wins, leave em Earth wins.
Orion the Raven 04-09-04, 08:19 AM	As long as you can't produce a magical fireball and prove that it's less powerfull than a tank's gun you can't say that the damage in D20 modern is wrong. You don't need to. You can go off what sort of material the damage generated is capable of destroying as compared to the same numbers for real world weapons. If you do so, you will see the numbers for D20 modern are way off for damage. They are somewhat close on minor firearms, but for heavy weapons, the system breaks down pitifully. For example, someone said that D20 modern lists ICBMs as doing 20d6. That is an average of 60 damage, or enough to destroy approximately one inch of iron in D&D, and make a small dent in the next inch. I know little about the military, but I know that in the real world, such a missile would vaporize an inch or two of iron. And illusions would not full equipment, even with fake thermals, because constructs and machines are uneffected by illusions.
Cunning Linguist 04-09-04, 08:24 AM	And illusions would not full equipment, even with fake thermals, because constructs and machines are uneffected by illusions. Stop making up rules, constructs are only immune to spells that allow spell resistence. And lots of illusion spells do not allow spell resistence, and would work perfectly on both machines and constructs.
mortellan 04-09-04, 08:52 AM	And the numbers. 25 million soldiers marching through portals that can move only a handful of people through at a time I believe there was a thing called Orcgate in the Thay-Mulhorand history. Besides if epic spells can be thrown into the mix then its likely portals of any size and disposition could exist spontaneously.
Mirtek 04-09-04, 09:14 AM	Originally posted by Archangel So Zhents don't have wizards and clerics, and Cormyr's War Wizards, and Dales? Not 1:5 Alliance used Orcs and a lot of them! The Zhents, Cormyrs and Dales did have wizards, the Tuigans didn't. Whent he Tuigan invaded the eastern realms the scored devasting victories against their enemies since their enemies didn't rely on wizards either. When the left the eastern realms and set out for Faerun, they were stoped in Thay. The Red Wizards simply stated their magical power and the Tuigan leaders recognized that they were beaten. Fortunately for the Tuigan the Red Wizards offered the gate them all past Thay to continue to bring havok to Thay's neighbours. Unfortunately for the Tuigans the western Alliance had magic as well and thus the allied forces of Zhentil Keep, Cormyr, Sembia and the Dales, numbering a "mere" 30,000 warriors (including the Orcs) defeated a 150,000 warriors strong Tuigan army due to the Tuigan's inferior magical firepower.
Orion the Raven 04-09-04, 09:23 AM	Whose making up rules? Constructs are immune to phantasms and patterns, and figments cannot produce real heat. Only the sensation of it (And machines do not go off sensation, only what is really there or not.). The only illusory effects that could produce actual heat would be shadow based ones, which the average mage is not going to have.
Cunning Linguist 04-09-04, 09:33 AM	Originally posted by Orion the Raven Whose making up rules? Constructs are immune to phantasms and patterns, and figments cannot produce real heat. Only the sensation of it (And machines do not go off sensation, only what is really there or not.). The only illusory effects that could produce actual heat would be shadow based ones, which the average mage is not going to have. No, what you said was: And illusions would not full equipment, even with fake thermals, because constructs and machines are uneffected by illusions They are not effected by Phantasomal killers and patterns since these are allowed magic resistence. Invisibility spells do not allow for magic resistence and Constructs cannot see past there effect. The same would apply to a machine.
Archangel 04-09-04, 09:50 AM	But Constructs don't have SR or Magic Immunity, only Golems do! All Golems = Constructs but All Constructs not = Golems!
Rick Day 04-09-04, 10:24 AM	Ok... as to illusions. I would agree that a radar isnt going to pick up an illusion. But how many of the soldiers in the field have radar glasses? Or equipment that is going to tell them something is an illusion. Chromatic dragons would not help immediatly but the metalics would. I will tell you this, One epic mage who has taken a day to prepare is going to eat, compleatly and without pause any entire flank of an army of soldiers who are not equipped to handle magic. Post your thery on why not and I will show you. (have to go to work be back in a bit.)
Cunning Linguist 04-09-04, 11:22 AM	Originally posted by Archangel But Constructs don't have SR or Magic Immunity, only Golems do! All Golems = Constructs but All Constructs not = Golems! Neither Simulacra or Automata has the ability to see past illusions. And All Simulacra + All Automata + All Golems = All Constructs.
Red_Rapida 04-09-04, 02:41 PM	Originally posted by mortellan I do favor the hit and run tactics used involving assassination and sabotage, but killing world leaders on Earth wouldn't be as demoralizing as it would be if Elminster or Khelben got sniped. Except faerun has true ressurection. :D
Mystery Man 04-09-04, 03:16 PM	We interrupt this thread becuase it's just plain silly. Perhaps one of the the silliest threads I've seen in quite some time. Stop this. This is getting very very silly now. Very silly indeed.
WotC_RichBaker 04-09-04, 04:08 PM	Against my better judgment, I find that this thread presents an oddly compelling thought experiment, because to answer the question, you need to examine some of the basic assumptions of the game. I'm going to look at a handful of points that have been raised and see what I come up with. First off, I think we should discard the lens of game rules for this discussion. The D&D game says that no 1st-level swordsman can kill a 10th-level swordsman with a single sword thrust. But we all know that someone stabbed through the heart is going to die (usually). Similarly, rules for guns and anti-vehicle weapons from D20 Modern (say) aren't designed to simulate reality, they're designed to promote a fun game experience. Were I to design the M-16 for "reality simulation" rather than game play, it would work something like this: Ranged touch attack, range increment 150 feet, damage 1d12, crit times 3 on a 15-20. Oh, and it's a simple weapon that confers Rapid Shot and Manyshot for free. I'll also say that level doesn't matter. Level is a game mechanic that regulates survivability and access to new abilities. The D&D XP rules pretty clearly say that someone who goes through rigorous military training (Special Forces, say) but never gets into a life-threatening fight remains 1st level, no matter how good they are. I'll say that a highly-trained Seal is comparable to a high-level fighter, because I'm throwing out the "level" lens and considering what sorts of skills, techniques, training, and experience (not the D&D XP) they've got. If the Seal gets into a sword fight with a master swordsman, he loses. If they tussle unarmed or with knives, it's anybody's match; maybe the Seal has an edge. If the Seal's got a gun and the fight starts at a range of more than 6 feet, he wins. If a human (even an Elminster) takes a 3-round burst from a M-16 in the chest, they're likely dead or dying. Now, El's magical defenses probably deflect or impede many bullets--but if you caught him in a dead magic zone and shot him between the eyes, he'd be just as dead as anyone else, regardless of what the game says about hit points and damage dealt by firearms. Imagine that a Huge dragon is similar to the world's strongest, quickest, most intelligent elephant, wearing good steel armor 1 inch thick all over its body, with a flamethrower and wings. In game terms, that armor accounts for its great AC and its damage reduction. No human can drive a muscle-powered weapon through a full inch of steel. You can't really hurt that monster with a sword, no matter how hard you try. But...anything designed to go through an inch of steel armor ought to penetrate the dragon's hide. So, I'm going to say that many anti-tank weapons will serve to kill a dragon just fine. Make it 2, or 3, or even 4 inches, and the answer's still the same. A "heat metal" spell affects no more than a couple of hundred pounds of metal, so it won't melt a tank. A kraken can't pull down a ship displacing more than 100 tons or so, because the buoyancy of a large vessel is incredibly strong. The kraken's best "drag" weight just isn't much more than a couple hundred tons. Think about how hard it is for you to keep a beach ball under water. As far as who would win... I think the modern army does pretty good, but has fits with things like mind-influencing magic and incorporeal monsters. It's a fun thought exercise, in any event.
Faraer 04-09-04, 04:39 PM	Rich, that's what would happen if you stage Realms vs Earth within the mode/genre of Earth (or rather how us modern people suppose things work). If the conflict worked the way the Realms work, the outcome would depend on considerations of story, myth, and the genre of swords and sorcery. I think a more interesting war is between the fantasy-mode and the realist-mode -- the theme of thinning that's part of so much fantasy fiction.
Ssussunriyh 04-09-04, 04:46 PM	It depends who writes the story. And if this is a collaborative effort, as it seems, then the answer is: nobody wins, because nothing ever gets accomplished when a committee is in charge of decision-making. Children, quit squabbling. Either play nice together, or break it up. NOTE: the preceeding condescending remark does not apply to Mr. Baker and others who can restrain their overzealousness.
Cunning Linguist 04-09-04, 07:46 PM	Mr. Baker makes valid points but we must make some comparison here. If a fireball does XDX damage, so must a Scud missile. We can't have restrictive rules for one part, while the other gets "experience" rules. If not, a fireball could take down entire camps, Metor Showers would take down ships and carriers, and the clerics of Umbreele would not even need to break a sweat to win that fight. A Kraken will not be able to pull a ship right down to the bottom of the sea, but he would have no problem tipping it over, then draggin it down. Just like putting a bowl in a bathtub, then tipping it over.. see how long that thing stays afloat. (not that you need to drag it down after tipping it over) The Kraken would also be able to break open a submarine, with a normal str score of 34 a 60 HD Kraken would have atleast 45, if not more. Also, you don't need to melt a tank, just parts of it.. Like the barrel, or the compartment where the people sit.
Alac Luin 04-09-04, 08:12 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Also, you don't need to melt a tank, just parts of it.. Like the barrel, or the compartment where the people sit. When I first mentioned heat metal and tanks, the point was never to melt the tank, but the resulting heat inside the tank would become unbareable for the ocupents. Yes, they have air conditioning but they are still extreamy hot inside while the engine is running. Add onto that an aditional 500 degrees (pulling numbers out of the air agien), even for a short time, to the meatal surrounding the occupents, the AC will not work to well. The inside will become stuffy and unbreathable for the people there, not saying they would suffocate, but they would be driven out. Then, the hell it would play on the Electronics of the tanks controls.
Cherrn 04-09-04, 09:57 PM	Faerun would win. As soon as Faerun finds out where the portals are they can just put up a permanent wall of force half a meter in front of the portals. The portal isn't sealed so this does not go against what the author of this thread said. I bet it would look really funny when earth wants to bring their jets and AWACS and all that crap through a portal with a Wall of Force right in front of it. This basically removes all of earths forces apart from the foot soldiers who can be easily taken care off with a cloudkill or something or other. There's just so many possibilities! Imagine the panic that would spread amongst earths troops when they really have to fight a Deva..... Or a Balor..... Or a Pitfiend... Or a gargantuan dragon who lands in the middle of the army and rolls around crushing thousands.
mortellan 04-09-04, 10:28 PM	As soon as Faerun finds out where the portals are they can just put up a permanent wall of force half a meter in front of the portals. The portal isn't sealed so this does not go against what the author of this thread said. I bet it would look really funny when earth wants to bring their jets and AWACS and all that crap through a portal with a Wall of Force right in front of it This is the best bet to -end- the war i'm sure. Yet, this is easily foiled by 'parking' something in the portal. A Wall of Force must be continuous and unbroken by any object or being. Stationed guards, watch towers, wire fences, destroyers straddling worlds (for sea-based portals) all would prevent a wall of force from reasonably covering the entire portal.
mortellan 04-09-04, 10:37 PM	the resulting heat inside the tank would become unbareable for the ocupents. I like this tactic, yet I wonder if Earth could have some kind of insulation against heat. Our space shuttles are made to withstand extreme heats of re-entry afterall. Thats still unlikely for a main battle tank. I'd fall back on demographics for this one again. It takes alot of casters casting alot of heat metals at alot of tanks, while already having their spell pool depleted with invisibilities and other protections -just- to get close enough to cast the heat metal in the first place. And that lasts only so long. And if the poor caster doesn't have Greater Invisibility, after he's heated up his tank, he better Flamestrike himself while he's at it because he won't get away easily.
Hoondatha 04-09-04, 11:59 PM	OK, I don't mean to sound condescending, but has anyone actually SEEN a modern aircraft carrier? The thing's the size of an entire city! It would run over a kraken and not even notice. However, the funny thing about our ships is that they depend upon propellers, which are connected to the ship by (relatively) thin drive shafts. Get your magic-using sea folk (sea elves, triton, kraken, shalarin, whoever) to swim up and disintegrate the drive shafts. The ship is instantly crippled. Planes can't launch without the additional thrust provided by the ship powering into the winds (well, many can't, I don't presume to speak for all since I am not in the Navy either). In one stroke you completely neutralise an entire carrier. Then either swim away and let the crew starve, or disintegrate holes in the hull until the thing goes down. And goodness help the crew if the sea elves (or whomever) scry out the ammunition storage and start dropping fireballs into it.
Ssussunriyh 04-10-04, 12:41 AM	Umm, hate to burst your bubble, but sea elves traditionally aren't all that good at casting arcane magic. And in any case, fire-based spells would not be a big part of their spell repertoire... I think some of you overestimate the proliferation of spellcasters and magic in FR. Yes, there are lots of magic-users. Nearly every little village has a hedge wizard or a cleric. But there are very few epic-level Evokers who could wield the massive amounts of destructive magic you propose... Remember, hordes of orcs, sahuagin, and other savage beasties (who have no wizards and a handful of shaman-type priests among their numbers) have very nearly achieved victory in their attempts to conquer parts of the Realms. A modern army with guns, radios, air cover, and artillery support would be at least a hundred times more effective.
TheMoose 04-10-04, 12:46 AM	Ok, just read the entire thread so far, the begining is a little..uhh...forgotten (bad memory), but here I go: -Earth finds magical portal -troops from earth poor through portal (insuring that realms are caught off guard) -Earth builds up defenses all around portqal, both sides. -Since I am, in a sense, in command i would have some doors set up on the other side with massive numbers of troops and reinforcments, with one door. Invisible assassin comes through (teleport=null and void, mages can't reach weave and dont know terrain)door, the soldiers aren't complete idiots and fire at the door, they'll be ordered to, BLOODSPRAY!!! -Wall of Force, Great! I make a huge steel dome around portal. -Contact powers most likely to join, Zhents see that Earth has better chances (after a little "persuasion", if necessary), Drow hear Lolth say, "this will be chaotic do nothing", General stands up befor troops (FR) "who wants to negotiate with the orcs/spectres/undead/lich/kraken/other only semi intelligent creature?" Mutiny ensues. -Earth spreads troops SLOWLY, no 'move as fast as possible and don't establish rule' business, and no 'bomb everything!' either, make contacts and make life better for the people, who will then most likely want to join Earth -bomb them into submission (I love the smell of napalm in the morning,it smells like...victory) Scenarios: -Dragon is flying, planning to take out Earth position, suddenly...BOOM!!! no one knows what happened to the dragon, but the rain WAS kinda warm, and very red... -Carrier vs. Kraken, everyone has said this one -Tank vs. Demon, tank goes "ROOOAR" and a tank shell goes "boom" and then another tank shell, and another, and another, AND ANOTHER! MUAHAHAHA!!! -100 (FR)vs. 1 (earth) soldier, soldier looks at his trusty gun and shoots away, taking small breaks to change clips. Weapons: Machine Gun- Me thinks bullets do whatever you said they do, and those feats can't (remember them), i think the gun should fire as a free action (breaks to change clips) doesn't take much to pull a trigger, should stun them or something (save not to) getting hit by a bullet is suprising. Bomb-already said damage (all kinds really), i think it should have a morale thingy (watching your friends turn into pieces of doggy food is distrubing) Tank- Bomb and Machine Gun with a big bonus to AC and lots of HP, should be immune to most damage (go attack a tank with a sword, spear, arrow or other primitive weapon and then complain) FR advantages: -Magic, thats right folks, the ONLY advantage that isnt a HUGE unlikely. -answer to magic, pick off spellcasters at begining of combat -Blah, Blah, Blah PFA, SCUD MISSLES LANDING EVERYWHERE AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! -Home Turf, they know the land -familiarize before launching assault via spies, recon., and any other available means
Another Gnome 04-10-04, 05:10 AM	A portal, regardless of its size, can only transport inanimate matter when it's being carried by a person. One person can carry a maximum of 850 lb. of gear with him or her through a portal, and the weight of an object can't be divided to several people. Now, precisely how many tanks or aircracft carriers are there that weigh 850 lb. at most?
Mirtek 04-10-04, 06:22 AM	Originally posted by TheMoose -Earth builds up defenses all around portqal, both sides. Which are suddenly destroyed by an unexplained rain of meteors. Originally posted by TheMoose --Since I am, in a sense, in command i would have some doors set up on the other side with massive numbers of troops and reinforcments, with one door. Invisible assassin comes through (teleport=null and void, mages can't reach weave and dont know terrain)door, the soldiers aren't complete idiots and fire at the door, they'll be ordered to, BLOODSPRAY!!! Mages don't need the weave to cast. They cast on the planes, where the weave don't exist, just as fine as on Faerun. And since the invisible assassin will also be made incorperal, he will walk straight through the closed door and no one will notice him.Originally posted by TheMoose --Wall of Force, Great! I make a huge steel dome around portal. Takes time, a lot of time. Wall of Force are set within mere minutes. And a stell dome will be blasted in seconds with meteors.Originally posted by TheMoose --bomb them into submission (I love the smell of napalm in the morning,it smells like...victory) Yeah, worked great in Vietnam, didn't it?Originally posted by TheMoose --Dragon is flying, planning to take out Earth position, suddenly...BOOM!!! no one knows what happened to the dragon, but the rain WAS kinda warm, and very red... Dragon isn't flying, dragon is greater teleporting right in the middle of the camp. Can you say "dragon fear"? Now some nice rolling around and the ground around suddenly becomes kinda red.Originally posted by TheMoose -Tank vs. Demon, tank goes "ROOOAR" and a tank shell goes "boom" and then another tank shell, and another, and another, AND ANOTHER! MUAHAHAHA!!! And the demons, remember unlimited numbers, come nearer and nearer (at least the weak demons, the really powerfull ones will greater teleport anyway and don't charge) and suddenly they are upon the tanks and start to rip through hard steel like through paper. MUAHAHAHA!!!
Derren S. 04-10-04, 06:33 AM	Originally posted by TheMoose Ok, just read the entire thread so far, the begining is a little..uhh...forgotten (bad memory), but here I go: -Earth finds magical portal -troops from earth poor through portal (insuring that realms are caught off guard) -Earth builds up defenses all around portqal, both sides. -Since I am, in a sense, in command i would have some doors set up on the other side with massive numbers of troops and reinforcments, with one door. Invisible assassin comes through (teleport=null and void, mages can't reach weave and dont know terrain)door, the soldiers aren't complete idiots and fire at the door, they'll be ordered to, BLOODSPRAY!!! -Wall of Force, Great! I make a huge steel dome around portal. Which is your doom, because now you neutralized the shadow/wraiths only weakness. So all your defensive forces on both sides of the portal will fall pray to incorporal undeath. Scenarios: -Dragon is flying, planning to take out Earth position, suddenly...BOOM!!! no one knows what happened to the dragon, but the rain WAS kinda warm, and very red... Dragon flies invisible to earth camp, blasts the ammunition/fuel reserves and then procceds to kill every soldier. -Carrier vs. Kraken, everyone has said this one Kraken would simply use controll weather and controll wind for some tornados -> sunken carrier. -Tank vs. Demon, tank goes "ROOOAR" and a tank shell goes "boom" and then another tank shell, and another, and another, AND ANOTHER! MUAHAHAHA!!! Therewhile demon goes "plop" and teleports inside the tank, masacres the crew and teleports inside the next tank. -100 (FR)vs. 1 (earth) soldier, soldier looks at his trusty gun and shoots away, taking small breaks to change clips. While the 100 soldiers continue charging as the bullets harmelessly bounce of them or pas through them. Weapons: Machine Gun- Me thinks bullets do whatever you said they do, and those feats can't (remember them), i think the gun should fire as a free action (breaks to change clips) doesn't take much to pull a trigger, should stun them or something (save not to) getting hit by a bullet is suprising. As is beeing hit by a sword or arrow or spell. And you still have to aim, so no free action shooting. Bomb-already said damage (all kinds really), i think it should have a morale thingy (watching your friends turn into pieces of doggy food is distrubing) As should seeing a 9ft tall beast cleaving your comerade into pieces, seeing dead friends rise as zombies and attack you or seeing the forces of heaven and hell itself doing battle against you. Tank- Bomb and Machine Gun with a big bonus to AC and lots of HP, should be immune to most damage (go attack a tank with a sword, spear, arrow or other primitive weapon and then complain) Fireballs, lightning ball, rust monster, teleporting into, heat/chill metal, brilliant energy weapons, phase arrows,... FR advantages: -Magic, thats right folks, the ONLY advantage that isnt a HUGE unlikely lol. Read the PHB/FRCS/MaoF again. -answer to magic, pick off spellcasters at begining of combat -Blah, Blah, Blah PFA, SCUD MISSLES LANDING Invisiblity, various protection spells, simulacrums, true ressurection -> counter attack -> losses Earth 10000 losses FR <10. -Home Turf, they know the land -familiarize before launching assault via spies, recon., and any other available means And still miss features like the underdark, cross roads, dragons, fey,...
Cherrn 04-10-04, 10:31 AM	Originally posted by mortellan This is the best bet to -end- the war i'm sure. Yet, this is easily foiled by 'parking' something in the portal. A Wall of Force must be continuous and unbroken by any object or being. Stationed guards, watch towers, wire fences, destroyers straddling worlds (for sea-based portals) all would prevent a wall of force from reasonably covering the entire portal. Yes but does the humans from Earth know how a Wall of Force works ?
Ramius_Mordale 04-10-04, 11:01 AM	Aaahhhh....um...okay. Well I never knew Faerun had an army of 20th level clerics on stand-by? And why are all these monsters fighting on FR side? I never knew of Dragons actually being except on rare occassions even in an Army on Faerun. I thought that was Dragonlance:( Personally, to just say something logically, this arguement is based off of expecting the world to have hundreds of thousands of high-level casters, both divine and arcane, that are all working together? *crickets chirping* Yeah. Well basicly to some this up reality vs fiction don't mix. Um, I would just suggest, since it seems like the posts are just looping endlessly on not even a key thing that deals with gaming except over a debate I don't even think has a focused topic, in my opinion. :) Well thats really all I have to say. Later all.
Cunning Linguist 04-10-04, 11:37 AM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale Aaahhhh....um...okay. Well I never knew Faerun had an army of 20th level clerics on stand-by? And why are all these monsters fighting on FR side? I never knew of Dragons actually being except on rare occassions even in an Army on Faerun. I thought that was Dragonlance:( Personally, to just say something logically, this arguement is based off of expecting the world to have hundreds of thousands of high-level casters, both divine and arcane, that are all working together? *crickets chirping* Yeah. Well basicly to some this up reality vs fiction don't mix. Um, I would just suggest, since it seems like the posts are just looping endlessly on not even a key thing that deals with gaming except over a debate I don't even think has a focused topic, in my opinion. :) Well thats really all I have to say. Later all. Everyone in Faerun would want to throw an invading force out of there own land. Red Dragons and Gold Dragons would not fight side by side, but they would fight against the invading army. And you don't need a army of 20 level clerics and arcane casters, you just need a small number, like 15-20 casters, and Faerun has lots of 20 level arcane casters. I can throw togheter a bad bunch if you want? I can even part them into groupe, so that they don't start to bicker among themselves.
Red_Rapida 04-10-04, 11:57 AM	Dont forget larloch, doenst he have like 60 epic lich mages?
Red_Rapida 04-10-04, 11:57 AM	Stupid double post
Ramius_Mordale 04-10-04, 12:34 PM	Okay, first off, Larloch could give a crap about world events. It even says it in his bio (and his fellow liches and vampires protecting him). Same with Dragons, they care about their treasure hoards, not the world (Good or Evil). If they aren't bothered then they don't care. Secondly, stick with the rules on how monsters react. You aren't going to get a troll army I don't care what you say. Trolls have no fear of death so they'll just fight whenever they come across food (be it FR native or someone from Earth). And casters don't unite, they have different ambitions just like humans on Earth. Some people could care less, and why would any of the Gods really care? Not like Ao is going to let them interfer with mortal affairs. Secondly, there are anti-magic and wild magic zones and throwing that much magic around I would have Toril torn apart if I were the DM. Especially the reckless use you all are suggesting. The Weave would be torn apart, including the Shadow Weave. And I can only find on very rare occassions when all of Toril actually united completely, if ever. Thirdly, yes I do agree, everyone would want to throw a force out of their OWN lands. Meaning, when they get to Thay, Thay would throw them out. If you look throughout history, most countries build up an army while an invading force is rampaging about. Only in the 20th century did Earth even see the World unite to take out an Army. I doubt a Medevil Society even has grasped that concept in its entirity. And how are you going to get Elminster to fight? Last I checked he doesn't get involved directly into mortal affairs? And from what I can tell the standard adventurer in Faerun is between the levels of 1st and 10th, not 10th to 60th. And be realistic, Epic Characters can only do so much, same with spells, read some of those spell discriptions everyone, you need materials to cast them. Animate Dead spell you need emeralds I believe. Resurrection and True Resurrection, diamond dust worth 5,000 gp in value plus it takes a long time to cast. You don't think after awhile they wouldn't be targeted and killed on sight? Fourth, plus FR doesn't even really have any concrete knowledge in science. And if they started throwing magic like you guys are suggesting around like that, Nukes would just be sent in to neutralize the threat of an invasion threw the portals, which last time I checked, destroyed a 60 to 100 mile radius on some warheads. And the weakest being the WWII atom bombs. And Faerun doesn't even have the population to combat a world with 6 billion people of the same species. Logically, speaking why would Earth really care to fight such a war. And would FR for that matter if you want to switch the transgressor. More then likely, one or the other would send an ambassdor to the other world in order to set up peacable negotiations and trade. But that is just my opinion I suppose. :) :) ;)
mortellan 04-10-04, 12:44 PM	Yes but does the humans from Earth know how a Wall of Force works ? We all assume alot on this thread, including the fact the portals in question being the first thing hit with a Wall of Force. After seeing it once, I'm sure the bright minds of Earth who have seen many movies and played many role playing games will formulate a defense. All the while 99% of the Faerunian defense is running from boomsticks.
Derren S. 04-10-04, 01:08 PM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale Same with Dragons, they care about their treasure hoards, not the world (Good or Evil) If they aren't bothered then they don't care. See Valamaradace for example. Secondly, stick with the rules on how monsters react. You aren't going to get a troll army I don't care what you say. Trolls have no fear of death so they'll just fight whenever they come across food (be it FR native or someone from Earth). Dominate/bribe the leader and they will fight. And casters don't unite, they have different ambitions just like humans on Earth. Like the Shades and the Arcane Brotherhood and why would any of the Gods really care? Because worshipper = power and earthlings (nonbeliver) are mass killing worshpper? Not like Ao is going to let them interfer with mortal affairs. Why not? Ao is all for balance and how balancing is a invasion from a other dimension? Secondly, there are anti-magic and wild magic zones and throwing that much magic around I would have Toril torn apart if I were the DM. Especially the reckless use you all are suggesting. The Weave would be torn apart, including the Shadow Weave. Why would spellcasting damage the weave? See Return of the Archwizard. Did the weave got damaged there? What about old Netheril (except for Karsus Avatar)? The weave doesn't get damaged by spellcasting. And I can only find on very rare occassions when all of Toril actually united completely, if ever. Like a large scale invasion from another dimension? Or isn't that rare enough for you? If you look throughout history, most countries build up an army while an invading force is rampaging about. Which history? Earths (unrelevant) or FRs? I doubt a Medevil Society even has grasped that concept in its entirity. And the large alliances to repell the Horde got formed why?... And how are you going to get Elminster to fight? Last I checked he doesn't get involved directly into mortal affairs? And what was Return of the Archwizards? An immortal affair? Several chosen did fight there. And from what I can tell the standard adventurer in Faerun is between the levels of 1st and 10th, not 10th to 60th. 10th level is enough to cast fly, invisibility, firebrand and fireball. Enough to take out dozens of soldiers. And be realistic, Epic Characters can only do so much, same with spells, read some of those spell discriptions everyone, you need materials to cast them. Which can mostly easily be aquired or aren't even neccessary due to Eshew Spell. And magic can do much more than technology can. A single epic spellcaster can level a medium to large army camp including vehicles like tanks. Animate Dead spell you need emeralds I believe. Resurrection and True Resurrection, diamond dust worth 5,000 gp in value plus it takes a long time to cast. All which can easily be gotten on the elemental plane of earth. Or some cleric casts Genesis to create a plane consisting completly out of diamonds. You don't think after awhile they wouldn't be targeted and killed on sight? Isn't that normal in a war? Of course you have to be seen first. Fourth, plus FR doesn't even really have any concrete knowledge in science. And why does it need it? Besides what knowledge has earth on magic? And if they started throwing magic like you guys are suggesting around like that, Nukes would just be sent in to neutralize the threat of an invasion threw the portals, which last time I checked, destroyed a 60 to 100 mile radius on some warheads. And the weakest being the WWII atom bombs. And as soon as that happens FR would know about nukes and would be able to counter them. Besides, that doesn't take out incorporal troops which would be a main attacking force when invading earth.
mortellan 04-10-04, 01:15 PM	All which can easily be gotten on the elemental plane of earth. Or some cleric casts Genesis to create a plane consisting completly out of diamonds. Amazing that a fantasy realm's economy even remain on a gold standard.
Ramius_Mordale 04-10-04, 02:18 PM	*Cough* Ahem. If I didn't know better, Derren S. I would believe you are trying to sound like an official on the subject. Hmm, interesting sources, well sorry to disappoint you there buddy, but I have no clue what you are talking about. Plus as I noted, it was my opinion, and as noted you have yours. But you bring up the point why I said the Weave would be torn apart. Karsus killed the goddess of the weave when he used that much magic (it may not destroy it but will greatly screw with it). And your forgetting radiation poisoning, disease, famine, ecosystem changes from nuclear winter, plus all the distruction happening, and whos to say Nukes don't affect the ethereal plane???? There isn't any scientific fact on whether it does or not, and its fiction. Lets say we find a better power source here, we discover shields, find ways to block magic and psionics. If a war were to happen we'd probably pour a ton of money into building scientific achievements to counter it (it being magic and everything). Genetically enhance soldiers, where body armor and power armor, and fly around in space ships. Creatures don't have an all incompassing leader for their race, last time I checked. And even then they don't have to fight if they don't want to. *Chuckles* But go ahead and bribe them after they swarm and eat you when they aren't intelligent beings, with that worthless money that went south cause you over enriched the economy with resources. Plus the continent of Faerun alone wouldn't even be able with their combine economic income compare to Earth's, why? Cause Earth has been building it up for a couple thousand years to what it is today. Where there are billionares and multi-billion businesses in about every place in the world. Haven't you heard of self interest? Might be the reason why small city-states might not want to fight, and the reason why bigger countries might just want to stay out of the fight to defend their own land holdings? And if I'm correct Earth history is very important cause at one time didn't Earth and the Realms used to be connected? Isn't that why they are called forgotten realms? ;) Okay, their Gods vs. God (or whatever spiritual beliefs you have in such things) of Earth. Hey if you want to argue about all this religious stuff that you are trying to make it into, be my guess, but this is as far as I touch this subject. And yes casters work together in groups, but not all the groups work together. The Arcane Brotherhood and the Shades probably wouldn't get along. They may choose not to fight each other while this, so called fictional battle, took place for their world. But probably never ally themselves or work with them. And lastly, if the majority of Faerun is dead because of the nukes, whos making the countermeasures? Most people will be sick and cold, and its not like they'll know that these missles flying toward them are going to wipe out millions of people (which missles fly faster then the fly spell or any flying creature in the realms). So with that I'm done. I'm not going to keep this up. This is my opinion, and it can't be wrong. Now if you want to talk in a less choppy fashion with your posts, I would be glad to continue it but I am not going to be 'schooled' on 'how wrong' my opinion is. Give me your point of view on it, but don't be flashy and throw out these novels and books I don't even have the time to read nor care for. Say it in your post, in summary, cause I'm not going to search from obscure knowledge through books. After I see your point of view then maybe I might change my opinion. Anyways, good travels all.:)
Derren S. 04-10-04, 03:07 PM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale But you bring up the point why I said the Weave would be torn apart. Karsus killed the goddess of the weave when he used that much magic (it may not destroy it but will greatly screw with it). Not quite correct. That was actually the intention of the spell (sorta). The spell let him steal the power of a deity and he choosed Mystrķl (aka the weave) but couldn't controll it. So Mystril sacrificed herself and was reborn as Mystra so that the weave didn't collaps. So no weave destroying because of to much magic use. As for Return of The Archwizards: Phaerim (epic wizard creatures) assaulted Everska (defended by elvish high mages) while 4 chosen of mystra (epic magic wizards) attacked shadovar (defended by shade netheril epic mages). So much magic was thrown arround and no weave damage. And your forgetting radiation poisoning, disease, famine, ecosystem changes from nuclear winter Which all could be healed by magic. and whos to say Nukes don't affect the ethereal plane???? There isn't any scientific fact on whether it does or not, and its fiction. Theoretically the only effect of nukes detonating in the FR could be that all liches turn into easter bunnies, but imo we should stay with the reality. Lets say we find a better power source here, we discover shields, find ways to block magic and psionics. If a war were to happen we'd probably pour a ton of money into building scientific achievements to counter it (it being magic and everything). Genetically enhance soldiers, where body armor and power armor, and fly around in space ships. Don't we talk about modern day earth? Cant see that the US uses energy shields, power armor and spacship in Irak. Creatures don't have an all incompassing leader for their race, last time I checked. And even then they don't have to fight if they don't want to. *Chuckles* But go ahead and bribe them after they swarm and eat you when they aren't intelligent beings, with that worthless money that went south cause you over enriched the economy with resources. Last time I checked trolls had a int 6 and lived in tribes which have a leader. Intelligent enough to be bribed but dumb enough not to notice that the bribe is totally worthless. Plus the continent of Faerun alone wouldn't even be able with their combine economic income compare to Earth's, why? Cause Earth has been building it up for a couple thousand years to what it is today. Where there are billionares and multi-billion businesses in about every place in the world. Yes, thats a problem. But I think that this was a mistake by the topic starter to not limit it to the US (like the title says) or confusing Faerun with Toril. Haven't you heard of self interest? Might be the reason why small city-states might not want to fight, and the reason why bigger countries might just want to stay out of the fight to defend their own land holdings? And if I'm correct Earth history is very important cause at one time didn't Earth and the Realms used to be connected? Isn't that why they are called forgotten realms? ;) Even if this is still true, the history on earth has no impact on the FR. Also if earth is united why not the FR? Seeing Iran allying with Israel is as improbable as Cormyr allying with Thay. Okay, their Gods vs. God (or whatever spiritual beliefs you have in such things) of Earth. Hey if you want to argue about all this religious stuff that you are trying to make it into, be my guess, but this is as far as I touch this subject. I only ask this: Do we have clerics with spells? And yes casters work together in groups, but not all the groups work together. The Arcane Brotherhood and the Shades probably wouldn't get along. They may choose not to fight each other while this, so called fictional battle, took place for their world. But probably never ally themselves or work with them. Thats also true for many earth organisations. And lastly, if the majority of Faerun is dead because of the nukes, whos making the countermeasures? Most people will be sick and cold, and its not like they'll know that these missles flying toward them are going to wipe out millions of people (which missles fly faster then the fly spell or any flying creature in the realms). So with that I'm done. I'm not going to keep this up. This is my opinion, and it can't be wrong. If there was a nuclear first strike it would be a problem. Otherwise clerics will certainly obtain knowledge of nukes and develope countermeasures (Divination, Commune, Speak with Death, charm on captives,...) Also counterattacks can be done by very few people thanks to magic, and if neccessary you simply ressurect them. I haven't said that Faerun will be be unscratched. But earth can't fully win because they can do nothing against incorporal creatures. And when some evil cleric/wizard is loosing he will certainly unleash them onto the earthlings and even on earth. itself.
Cunning Linguist 04-10-04, 03:25 PM	Well, I might not be able to say your opinion is wrong, but your facts are just way of target. Karsus killed the goddess of the weave when he used that much magic (it may not destroy it but will greatly screw with it). when you make such a statement, it's quite clear you really don't know what your talking about. The weave is not what it was in the time of Netheril, but it has nothing to do with "overuse" of magic, and no amount of 9 level spell casting, or epic spell casting will damage the weave, unless that is the meaning of the spell itself. whos to say Nukes don't affect the ethereal plane???? Unless you have magical nukes, they don't effect the ethereal plane. And let's just stop right there, Stop with all the nukes. Earth was supposed to invade faerun to take there gold/oil/magic whatever. You can't take over something that you have nuked to the ground. If it was a pure war, where earth had no intrest in seeing Faerun after the war, yes, they would nuke it, but they want the land, so no nukes would be used. Creatures don't have an all incompassing leader for their race, last time I checked. Go check again sir, King Obold would be able to gather a horde of orcs. Slarkrethel could lead a horde of water creatures. A deal made with The Encephalithid would wreak havoc among the Earth troops themselves when 5000 mind flayers join the battle. We know from Olostin that Phaerimm can be talked to, and dealt with, so a deal with Phindounma The Abominable, Scalmarel the Sage and Ygnaroth the Necroseer would gain the Faerun army a horde of Beholders in the battle.
Ramius_Mordale 04-10-04, 05:03 PM	*Sigh* Listen, if you can't be objective in your arguements then don't write one. Yes I may be slightly off, but I'm not that far off. I'm sorry I don't have the devotion to the FR as you do, but that doesn't mean I don't like playing in the world. And its obivious you guys are just going to keep this up until I get worn down and eventually end it with it become insults. Which might I add border on arrogance from the way they are typed. Now hey if I'm wrong great, and I apologize right now if I'm pulling them out of context. So here is my peace offering. Thanks for letting me in on the information of the realms. I learned a lot and I appreciate it, for future game play. And I yield Forgotten Realms would wipe us out and make our dead bodies dance the Undeath dance. *My corpse gets its grove thing on* You win guys. I lose. Alls fair and even. And you know more then I will ever know about the Realms. Now if you don't mind, I've enjoyed this conversation, but lets just start up a different post that is less...heated. Just my thought and opinion, and if you don't want to take it thats fine. Well all you have a nice day. Take care all. :)
mortellan 04-10-04, 11:07 PM	Sonic weapons have been in development in the U.S. since the 90's. They are for non-lethal purposes but with some overuse/misuse anything even rubber bullets can kill. Now how many dragons and spellcasters are immune to sonic attacks?
Red_Rapida 04-11-04, 12:50 AM	Resist energy spell keyed to sonic damage could work.
mortellan 04-11-04, 01:21 AM	That's what i figured, so I'll quote myself from an earlier uncontested post. Another matter on demographics, while Faerun has an advantage in the healing category, most of the other spells employed are not standard to every spellcasting being (maybe except magic missile @_@). Unless rapidly distributed and taught, not every wizard will know invisibility, ironguard, wall of force, etc. So we already know there is a spell for every occasion, its the pure fact that not every spell-user will have resist energy, keyed to sonic. And those that did would have to single-mindedly cast that one defensive spell to cover a small unit in it. It's just been my long DMing experience that most PCs and villain NPCs/monsters are ill-prepared for sonic attacks.
mortellan 04-11-04, 01:24 AM	What magic items would be beneficial in a Faerunian defense? I'm not talking armor +1 or anything, i mean the most bang for one magic item.
Derren S. 04-11-04, 04:59 AM	You know that you don't have to learn/prepare against a specific energy? When you cast resistance to energy, you choose the energy type when casting the spell, not when learning/preparing it.
mortellan 04-11-04, 05:23 AM	Yes. My point goes from 0-level spells on up to Epic spells. Spellcasters have a limited amount they can cast per day, from a limited spell selection that is essentially unique to them. Clerics can spontaneously cast healing spells, but mages can't spontaneously cast walls of force, invisibility, et al. They must be acquired and learned. Summoned creatures that have innate spell like abilities(like fiends) can sometimes use theirs at will. These would be rather potent in large numbers. Still, the summoner himself has already cast half a dozen spells to protect himself from a variety of attacks, thus diminishing his overall summoning potential. This maybe isn't a big deal to a high-level mage but the greater percentage of spellcasters in the 1-10th level range have to be choosier with their spells.
Derren S. 04-11-04, 05:48 AM	You underestimate the availiability of scrolls in the FR. In every big city practically every spell except some high level ones are availiable (Thanks to the many arcane organisations). Its rather easy to find spells when you need it. Also protection from energy is a standart spell nearly everyone has. You also seems to forget that caster can leave slots open and can fill them when they need it.
mortellan 04-11-04, 06:23 AM	Leaving slots open is neither here nor there, it still comes down to the right spellcaster for the right occasion. Now scrolls that is a good point, and it also answers my other previous post about useful magic items in wartime. Unfortunately 3rd edition has made magic items too readily available. It still boils down to demographics. The magely institutions must crank out the direly needed scrolls at the cost of their XP's. Its not much for one, but in war-time with a high demand, it adds up quick. Also one mage at the writing desk is one less mage in the field of battle. Then there is always the issue of when Earth finds out about the magely institutions and bombs their libraries, but I won't go into that.
Mirtek 04-11-04, 06:43 AM	Faerun would not win the war with armies. Faerunian armies would be crushed by earth forces. With all their spells they might be able to do some damage, but eventually they would lose. It would be individual who would truly scare Earth. One single epic level or high level caster can destroy New York, Los Angelas and Washington DC in a single night and return tomorrow to proceed with the next few cities. And how many epic level casters are there on Faerun? While Earth forces would annihilate the Faerunian armies (well, most of them until they run into creatures like shadows or ghosts which they can't hurt) back on Earth major cities would be blasted to dust by Vulcanos, earthquakes, meteor swarms, fires, ...... And the casters don't even need to take any risks to their lifes at all! Beside the standard protections of ironguard, improved invisibility they won't be there at all! They would be save and secure on some out plane, while the bodies who are raining death and destruction to Earth are nothing but Astral Proections. And if one of this Astral Projections is indeed slain, the spellcaster simply awakens back in his real body, completly unharmed, and can prepare spells for the next astral trip tomorrow. While the Earth troops may be celebrating the conquest of Suazil, they don't even know that every US city with more than 100,000 people has is destroyed.
mortellan 04-11-04, 06:58 AM	It would be individual who would truly scare Earth. One single epic level or high level caster can destroy New York, Los Angelas and Washington DC in a single night and return tomorrow to proceed with the next few cities. I agree completely Mirtek. I know we're trying to avoid it in this thread, but its painfully obvious that arch-mages/epic mages is the Realms equivalent to nuclear bombs. Once the trump card is used, its doomsday for both sides.
Derren S. 04-11-04, 08:14 AM	Except that epic mages are much more versatile than nukes. (And reuseable). Earth army defeats FR army? Send a epic mage who destroys it. Enemy camp? epic mage nukes it. Counterattack on earth cities? One epic mage can destroy it. Nukes leave scorched earth which is of no use for earth while epic mages can focus their destructive power if neccessary.
Cherrn 04-11-04, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by mortellan We all assume alot on this thread, including the fact the portals in question being the first thing hit with a Wall of Force. After seeing it once, I'm sure the bright minds of Earth who have seen many movies and played many role playing games will formulate a defense. All the while 99% of the Faerunian defense is running from boomsticks. Cmon Mortellan, that has to be the worst argument you made so far. In the essence you are saying that earth will know how Wall of Force works due to the fact that some people have done some RPG'ing and have seen how it works in the PHB. With that you could also say that prior to earth's invasion of FR they went down to the nearest book shop and bought every FR book on sale down there. Had several people read it carefully and thus they would know everything about the world they were going to invade because oddly enough, the world they were going to invade is the exact same world as a popular RPG world on Earth. Earth would have no idea what a Wall of Force is because Earth does not have magic, never have and never will. How can they understand what does not exist in their own world. Something which they have never seen and there's no proof off? And don't give crap about someone has done some RPG'ing and knows the mechanics of a Wall of Force because of that.
JLXC 04-11-04, 12:12 PM	I'll wade in. If a portal was opened the biggies of the FR would CLOSE IT. Plain and simple. They have enough trouble without some high-tech world trying to muscle in. Second, if the earth was Dumb enough to drop a nuke, that would be the end of the earth plain and simple. At least a few biggies would roll in and try to tell the earth to knock it off, but with even a single nuke dropped, they would have to do something simple like Open a Portal to Hell, or several and just leave it open. Magic trumps Tech. There are a bazillion ways for the FR to beat earth and NONE for earth to beat the FR. Now in the very unlikely event the earth was aware of the FR, sent a bunch of nukes in, then the Gods would step in because if their followers were dead, they would not be very happy. So the nukes would be rendered usless instantly. All in all earth has ZERO absofreakinglutely Z E R O chance of winning. Why even argue this? People like to imagine our tech and our numbers are just unbeatable, but it is simply that, your imagination. The Earth has very simple Direct Death dealing. We got bombs and guns and bigger bombs and bigger guns, with a little Germ/Bio thrown in. For a place with megamagic, and the desire to prevent the whole planet from being taken, Earth would lose. If the FR folks could not close the portals, Earth would be destroyed in a day. If that was the only way, and a bunch of people with 25+ Int and Wis and godly intervention figured that out, the Earth would be laid waste in a day. How could earth fight against magic? REALLY? "Suddenly hurricanes and tornadoes appeared world-wide! Then the volcanoes started going off! Then the seas started to rise! The earth shook and cities toppled!" This is simply a group of :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: off high level Druids, with the earth having ZERO chance of finding or stopping them. Don't even bring the Archmages and Clerics into it. Plus, it's been established in realms lore that magic works fine on earth. The big "El" and others have visited earth. The average foot soldier of the FR has no chance vs. Earth tech. The earth has no chance vs. Epic Magic, hell even 8th or 9th level spells. Elemental Swarm alone is a city destroyer.
rizzard 04-11-04, 02:29 PM	this is the most retarded subject i have ever seen on any board. you have all crossed the line snap out of it and get a freakin grip
Narvineye 04-11-04, 05:12 PM	It is quite obvious that Earth forces would win in a direct fight, the FR can field nothing (short of a extraplanar army) capable of taking out that many troops with the level of technology we have. But Faerunians will be able to mount a very effective guerilla(sp?) attack, what with magic and all. So I would say that Earth would win, but it would be slow going. On a side note, it seems everyone has forgotten that eventualy Earth forces will learn magic, and the FR forces will learn how to shoot a gun. I think it is safe to say the learning curve for the FR will be shorter, as they have seen similar stuff (to a lesser degree). Once they know how to use it, I doubt there will be any trouble getting thier hands on the items.
Derren S. 04-11-04, 05:21 PM	How should earthlings learn to use magic? It takes years of concentrated study to learn to cast even the simplest spells and only when you know what you are doing. On the other hand learning to use a gun is rather easy. Heck, a epic mage can possibly mass produce guns after a short time if gond doesn't forbid it thanks to ignore material components, wieldskill and fabricate.
Narvineye 04-11-04, 05:36 PM	Exactly, I stated that Wewould learn it eventualy, and that people from the FR would figure out how to use a gun much quicker.
Derren S. 04-11-04, 05:39 PM	The war would be long over before earthlings even started to comprehend magic.
mortellan 04-11-04, 08:37 PM	Cmon Mortellan, that has to be the worst argument you made so far. In the essence you are saying that earth will know how Wall of Force works due to the fact that some people have done some RPG'ing and have seen how it works in the PHB. With that you could also say that prior to earth's invasion of FR they went down to the nearest book shop and bought every FR book on sale down there. Had several people read it carefully and thus they would know everything about the world they were going to invade because oddly enough, the world they were going to invade is the exact same world as a popular RPG world on Earth. No, you take what I mean wrong. You all argue FR's side using game mechanics, but I try to argue Earth's side using plain common sense. Invisible walls and invisible people have been in Earth fiction forever. I think that given exposure to magic in Faerun they will come to expect invisible walls and learn how to deal with them accordingly. If Earth was invaded by generic aliens in flying saucers right now, I am fairly sure given our abundance of movie and video-game knowledge on the subject, we wouldn't feign ignorance of how to combat that.
Hoondatha 04-12-04, 01:33 AM	That could actually be a mixed blessing. Sure, most have heard the stereotypical "ghost stories" or whatever, but who's to say that the tactics proposed in those stories are actually good? They might be worse than useless. Think of trying to kill a full-powered Van Richten-type vampire when all you know about vampires you learned on Buffy. Not going to work very well. You wouldn't even know about charm, energy drain, shapeshifting, etc. Not to mention you take that stake out and the vampire gets right back up. For a slightly different, scifi, example, examine the differences in tech between, say Star Trek, Star Wars, and Babylon 5. Some have shields for ships while others don't, and the same's true for use of one-man fighters, types of weapons, general tactics, and what you'll find inside the ships (for instance if you boarded them). If you know of one, but you're actually attacking another you'll be worse off than if you knew of none.
Orion the Raven 04-12-04, 06:23 AM	An Epic Mage is not going to match a nuke pound for pound on destruction with just a single spell. A nuke in D20 terms would generate hundreds of thousands of d6 damage in a single blast and anhilate everything for miles, and then miles on top of that with radiation and make the place un liveable for centuries if not more.
Derren S. 04-12-04, 07:09 AM	Good thing that a epic mage has more than one spell. Also with spells like rain of fire (12000 damage over a 20 hour duration), Horrible army of the death and Killing Winds he can get pretty close. Imo a epic mage is actually better than a nuke because he is much more versatile and can choose what to destroy and what not. Don't forget we are talking about conquering and not nuking it) Also clerics and druids can remove radiation. Will take a time but certainly not centuries.
mortellan 04-12-04, 08:13 AM	That could actually be a mixed blessing. Sure, most have heard the stereotypical "ghost stories" or whatever, but who's to say that the tactics proposed in those stories are actually good? They might be worse than useless. Better reply, I concur. At least Earth isn't 100% oblivious to fantasy-magic concepts as I was trying to point out. Imo a epic mage is actually better than a nuke because he is much more versatile and can choose what to destroy and what not. Don't forget we are talking about conquering and not nuking it) Everytime we remove Earth nukes from the equation someone posts about epic mages slipping behind the lines and devastating multiple cities with epic magic. If that isn't a signal to modern militaries to bring out the nukes I don't know what is. In fact, before a single epic spell is thrown a single nuke could be dropped to the ocean far from Waterdeep as a demonstration that equal 'magic' power is possessed and use this as a bid for deterrance. This is the tactic that ended WW2 and kept us in a Cold War for decades after and is now the reason N Korea seeks those weapons. Not for use but for bargaining power. Its probably the same reason why FR isn't a slag-ball already from catastrophic spells. Every 'big name', good or evil has someone keeping them in check so such things never happen.
Derren S. 04-12-04, 08:31 AM	Originally posted by mortellan Better reply, I concur. At least Earth isn't 100% oblivious to fantasy-magic concepts as I was trying to point out. Do you really think that would help erath? As soon someone brings up the idea that this might be magic like in <insert fantasy movie/novel> he will be thrown into an asylum. Most people activly deny the existence of magic and will resist to admit that they are wron as long as they can Everytime we remove Earth nukes from the equation someone posts about epic mages slipping behind the lines and devastating multiple cities with epic magic. If that isn't a signal to modern militaries to bring out the nukes I don't know what is. Why should they attack cities? Epic mages can easily destroy the whole army earth can send to invade faerun. Unless nukes are dropped they won't attack cities. In fact, before a single epic spell is thrown a single nuke could be dropped to the ocean far from Waterdeep as a demonstration that equal 'magic' power is possessed and use this as a bid for deterrance. This is the tactic that ended WW2 and kept us in a Cold War for decades after and is now the reason N Korea seeks those weapons. Not for use but for bargaining power. Its probably the same reason why FR isn't a slag-ball already from catastrophic spells. Every 'big name', good or evil has someone keeping them in check so such things never happen. Except that nukes are much weaker than epic magic. They can only do massive destruction and are physical devices. Easily detectable with locate object and other divinations and easy to disable with desintegrate and wish.
mortellan 04-12-04, 09:05 AM	Most people activly deny the existence of magic and will resist to admit that they are wron as long as they can Just the pure fact Earth is leading armies off into the unknown through a portal is enough to shut up nay sayers. Knowledge of magic being afoot is a given in this War scenario. And if it wasn't before, then it soon will come after the first dragon steps or breathes on a tank. Godzilla anyone? Why should they attack cities? Epic mages can easily destroy the whole army earth can send to invade faerun. Unless nukes are dropped they won't attack cities I agree, I still go back to my deterrance post in that regard. Except that nukes are much weaker than epic magic. They can only do massive destruction and are physical devices. Easily detectable with locate object and other divinations and easy to disable with desintegrate and wish. While this may be true, I can argue the same for Earth nukes that you can for Earth not understanding magic. A demonstration of modern might would be a psychological means to get 99.99% of Faerunians to surrender or call for a cease fire. It would be hard for the other .01% of Faerun to then convince their medieval minded rulers that this invading Earth isn't full of their own Epic mages.
Derren S. 04-12-04, 09:17 AM	Originally posted by mortellan Just the pure fact Earth is leading armies off into the unknown through a portal is enough to shut up nay sayers. Knowledge of magic being afoot is a given in this War scenario. And if it wasn't before, then it soon will come after the first dragon steps or breathes on a tank. Godzilla anyone? They still won't admit that this is magic. The portal will be explained as natural phenomenom/wormhole and dragon breath as bio/chemical reaction. It will take very long that scientists will admit that this is magic and what scientists say counts in our world. While this may be true, I can argue the same for Earth nukes that you can for Earth not understanding magic. A demonstration of modern might would be a psychological means to get 99.99% of Faerunians to surrender or call for a cease fire. It would be hard for the other .01% of Faerun to then convince their medieval minded rulers that this invading Earth isn't full of their own Epic mages. Except that these 0.1% could destroy the earth armies alone and with divinations you can easily find out what was responsible for this. Magic can do everything technology can do and more. Earth can't do something a high level mage can't do. Hours after a nuke is dropped, the high level clerics and wizards would know of nukes and search out and destroy them easily. And when we are talking about moral, how will the moral of (christian) people fare when an angel appears and attacks them? Or when the death rise from the graves? That is much more shocking than a nuke.
mortellan 04-12-04, 09:48 AM	Good arguments. Magic and technology are blurry in a crossover campaign. Except that these 0.1% could destroy the earth armies alone True. The big assumption is would they be the first line of defense or the last? Until an Earth invasion is deemed a big enough threat(Who met the Tuigan horde first?) would the Elminsters of Faerun get off their duffs first, or would they typically send bands of heroes to the fore at their behest, or would the local monarchs have already submitted and signed peace accords to drill for oil and stuff on Faerun once they see Earth as a lesser of two evils? Side question on occupation: Would a country like say Cormyr or Sembia accept an all human Earth presence post-war, rather than allow the Zhentarim or Drow to expand after a costly war?
Dust Boy 04-12-04, 09:53 AM	The only thing Faerun has going for it is the supernatural. In case all of you have never watched a movie in your life, whenever Earthlings go up against the supernatural, they come out on top. In every fictional world I've encountered, Earth always defeats the supernatural, I believe that this would also include Faerun.
Derren S. 04-12-04, 09:55 AM	They would be the first line of defense (see the Return of the Archwizards for an example) or no line of defense at all. Many of these higj level people have their own agenda or are the local rulers. If earth attacks waterdeep they will get blasted by Khelben. Nearly every country has their supermage which can blast earth armies into pieces. And then there are the independent organisations like the Harper or Moonsomething (The splinter group lead by Khelben) which give a crap about what local rulers say. And Druids won't be very impressed by earth drilling for oil with their polluting technique. And high level druids can be very scary to fight. The only thing Faerun has going for it is the supernatural. In case all of you have never watched a movie in your life, whenever Earthlings go up against the supernatural, they come out on top. In every fictional world I've encountered, Earth always defeats the supernatural, I believe that this would also include Faerun. This argument has to be a joke. Whenever earthlings go up against supernatural in movies they follow the scrip which leads them to a happy end. How many viewer would a movie have where earth has no chance and everyone dies? Its like saying british secret agents are invulnerable because when they show up highly trained soldiers start to aim like blind 90ty years old grannies.
JLXC 04-12-04, 12:09 PM	Originally posted by Dust Boy The only thing Faerun has going for it is the supernatural. In case all of you have never watched a movie in your life, whenever Earthlings go up against the supernatural, they come out on top. In every fictional world I've encountered, Earth always defeats the supernatural, I believe that this would also include Faerun. Thanks for one of the funniest arguments I have ever seen, no seriously. :rolleyes:
drnuncheon 04-12-04, 03:01 PM	Originally posted by Richard Baker First off, I think we should discard the lens of game rules for this discussion. The D&D game says that no 1st-level swordsman can kill a 10th-level swordsman with a single sword thrust. But we all know that someone stabbed through the heart is going to die (usually). Right - but the 10th level swordsman is good enough that you can't get that single sword thrust to the heart instantly. That's part of how hit points work. If you discard the lens of game mechanics, you're giving an immense advantage to Earth, because D&D is structured to take levels and saves and hit point rules into account. I'll also say that level doesn't matter. Level is a game mechanic that regulates survivability and access to new abilities. The D&D XP rules pretty clearly say that someone who goes through rigorous military training (Special Forces, say) but never gets into a life-threatening fight remains 1st level, no matter how good they are. Gotta disagree with you there. The D&D rules give XP for overcoming obstacles, not just fighting - you can get XP from disarming traps (or bombs) or talking your way out of a bad situation as well. Given that, and the intensity of special forces training, I think it would be more than reasonable to award XP for military training. (Not as much as for the real thing, but some.) but if you caught him in a dead magic zone and shot him between the eyes, he'd be just as dead as anyone else, regardless of what the game says about hit points and damage dealt by firearms. Again, the way that hit points work, you wouldn't be able to put that single shot right between his eyes - he'd dodge, or it'd be a glancing hit, or what have you. D&D characters are action movie stars, they don't get taken down with a single blow. So really, it boils down to 'are you working from a D&D/action movie paradigm' (in which case the 'who wins' answer is 'the good guys'), or are you trying to work from a 'realistic' paradigm (in which case the answer is 'you're not really talking about D&D anymore'). Personally, I think the invading forces would be in a heap of trouble. They've got to protect their supply lines, and there are thousands of groups of what amount to highly experienced, incredibly powerful guerilla warriors (that is to say, adventurers) with the capability to take them out. Without fuel, electricity, and ammunition, all the high-tech stuff in the world is utterly meaningless. J
Another Gnome 04-12-04, 04:02 PM	Right - but the 10th level swordsman is good enough that you can't get that single sword thrust to the heart instantly. That's part of how hit points work. If you discard the lens of game mechanics, you're giving an immense advantage to Earth, because D&D is structured to take levels and saves and hit point rules into account. One look at epic skills and feats is a pretty good indication that D&D characters can indeed possess and develop superhuman strength and ability no mortal on Earth can even dream of. That being the case, I fully agree with the above.
Archangel 04-13-04, 07:14 AM	Well, I haven't been on the NET for 3 days and all hell breaks loose! Firsty "US" was a word game, but I believe most people understood this! Secondly, NO NUKES, THEY ARE FOR DEFENSE OF EARTH ONLY! Then also I mentioned there is no D&D books in this scenario, TSR went bust in the '70! Then to mention that I asked people to try to discuss this in a non D&D numbers way first and then if that cannot work use D&D numbers!
Another Gnome 04-13-04, 08:50 AM	The thing is, it doesn't work without numbers. Especially with all the unfair limitations placed on the FR side in the beginning, rule-bound number-crunching (including the ridiculous amount of machine gun fire it requires to take down an archmage) is all there is to keep the discussion going - without resorting to the novel approach where Torilian heroes (or villains) would simply come up with an "NPC plot device" plan to stop the invasion and nothing could stop them. ( :P ) Seriously, as has been said, if a single rifle shot kills a 10th-level fighter, so too does a single fireball make a 40-foot hole in the hull of an aircraft carrier because nothing says it can't do that.
newbDM 04-13-04, 12:47 PM	Originally posted by mortellan you have got to be kidding me. vampires DO sleep...in the day...duh....one piece of wood or a room full of sunlight=alot of dead vampires. To avoid the day, like all undead Vampires don't have a con score they don't get tired they keep on trucking where a normal human wouldn't be able to continue. even if they slept they are awake at night when humans are vunerable. They can't be seen by any heat sensing equipment. They can't be hurt by modern day equipment they can infiltrate in mist form and kill at their leasure Wouldn't take long for 1 vampire to take care of an entire company of marines.
Cunning Linguist 04-13-04, 12:59 PM	I don't know where mortellan gets his rules from, but vampires don't need to sleep during the day. They need a coffin to heal wounds when they have 0 hp, but thats it.
newbDM 04-13-04, 01:06 PM	Originally posted by Archangel Open warfare in not an option only disguises and charming, domination and the like. Probably no matter how much they tried Earth military couldn't kill all the high level individuals on Faerun. So those individuals could day after day make strike against the conquering armies. 1. Charm is all Faerun really needs once they have key peopled charmed they can learn of the next attacks. They can learn of the objectives, methods of attack, wear the next attack will come from etc. 2. Damage reduction would play a huge benefit. Tanks may hit other tanks easily and they're great for fortified bunkers but you try hitting a low altitude flying Solar As... one if the Jets get involved there will be their friendly casualties... and since we all know that the film crews will be there... talk about Massive Chaos. 3. As for the Military being able to track down high end people... they had a hard time tracking down Saddam and Bin Laden (If you believe they have him now) and thats with their own people turning them in... A wizard who can teleport doesn't need friends to help him hide. Other Misc. Quotes so far: Earth Having a Military of 25million people: In 2000, the total estimated personnel strength of the Chinese military is 2.5 million, of which 1.8 million are in service with the PLA (ground forces). The ground forces are divided into 7 military regions with 27 military districts. Within the 7 military regions lie 21 Group Armies, each containing about 60,000 personnel. The Group Armies contain among them 44 infantry divisions, 13 infantry brigades, 10 armored divisions, 12 armored brigades, 5 artillery divisions, 20 artillery brigades, and 7 helicopter regiments. In addition, 5 infantry divisions, 2 infantry brigades, 1 armored brigade, 1 artillery division, 3 artillery brigades, and 3 anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) brigades are independent elements of the PLA not assigned to any specific Group Army. There are also three airborne divisions, which are manned by the PLAAF. 5 Pakistan and India (Who is the other largest country in the world) aren't involved its already been said. That leaves the rest of the world to pick up a 23 million soldier... And thats assuming they left NO defense at home.... you think there aren't countries that would attack Russia, US, China, Japan, Russia if there was no soldiers left for defence??? Earth isn't as united as you make it seem... (Nor is the Realms I give you)
Monsoon28 04-13-04, 01:22 PM	An Important question: What conventions is earth upholding are we still using Geneva, Ottawa Accord (anti-landmine), are we using Biological/Chamical Warfare, Etc...? Assuming standard combat tactics, faerun would be softened up with heavy bombing sorties for at least the first month, so faerun would unlike see any soldiers except Special Forces (who would be using advanced Thermo/Night Vision gear, so they would be able to see Invisible) If the gloves were off, then we could use Nerve, Mustard, Serine Gas (the list goes on). Napalm to clear out those pesky forests of Elves. A-10's with they're almighty Vulcan Cannon could kill just about anything corporeal within seconds, forget DR! And they still carry enough missile and bombs to distroy entire armies. Dwarves could be trouble since we're not use to underground combat. Modern Fighter Jets travel well over Mach2 what creature on faerun can keep up with that!?! Dragons, Griffons, whatever could cope with that kind of speed and their weapons doen't have the range that the modern missile has. There are a hundred other reasons which I may come back with in the future... As much as I love magic, and the FR I still think Earth would win. Beside even without TSR earth is well versed in Monster slaying of Vampires/ Lycanthropes/ Demons...We do have Exorcists, Holy Water, even wooden stakes! ;)
newbDM 04-13-04, 01:28 PM	Some things: Disinitigrate.... how big does a hole in a carrier have to be before it starts to sink.... Perm wall of force at the end of a carrier = 1 useless carrier. Rust Monster Vs Tank.... = 1 fat rust monster Again and again all I have to say is Supply Lines... wars are won or lost on your supply lines... when America attacks it has in modern history always had a footing through allies to land its troops in before it went to war...this time it won't. Blade Barrier... Its a pointless talk since we are told that Modern d20 isn't correct... and there is no way to test Magical Equipment Vs Modern Day methods of destroying equipment... its a mute point. Either the Defenders for the Earth side need to accept Modern d20 as the numbers of Earths Military or its a pointless talk.
Derren S. 04-13-04, 01:39 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Assuming standard combat tactics, faerun would be softened up with heavy bombing sorties for at least the first month, so faerun would unlike see any soldiers except Special Forces (who would be using advanced Thermo/Night Vision gear, so they would be able to see Invisible) Why do you think you can detect invisible people with thermo equipment. You couldn't in 2Ed with infravision, or? Jets would fly for some days, after that defenses will be in place and they will be brought down en masses and special solders would easily be detected and neutralized thanks to divinations. Besides where should those jets take of and land? If the gloves were off, then we could use Nerve, Mustard, Serine Gas (the list goes on). [B] And be hit back with contaginion and other diseases. Try to heal mummy rot without magic.[b] Napalm to clear out those pesky forests of Elves. Which will laugh about those funny attempts because with quench fires is no problem. Therewhile air elementals take out the planes. A-10's with they're almighty Vulcan Cannon could kill just about anything corporeal within seconds, forget DR! And they still carry enough missile and bombs to distroy entire armies. How do you know that? DR applies for every bullet and things with higher DR would take nearly no damage from the cannon besides that the important people will be protected by protection from arrows and ironguard. And things with regeneration laugh about a A-10. Modern Fighter Jets travel well over Mach2 what creature on faerun can keep up with that!?! Dragons, Griffons, whatever could cope with that kind of speed and their weapons doen't have the range that the modern missile has. Modern missiles would be mostly useless because they can't lock on living creatures. Also you don't have to chase the jets, they have come to you. A air elemental above the target of the planes which turns into a whirlewind when they approach is enough to destroy them. Also don't you think mages will counter attack and destroy the improvised air strips? After two days there won't be anyplace left on Faerun where those yets could start. As much as I love magic, and the FR I still think Earth would win. If Faerun would only sit there and wait till they are overrunned yes, otherwise earth will loose. Beside even without TSR earth is well versed in Monster slaying of Vampires/ Lycanthropes/ Demons...We do have Exorcists, Holy Water, even wooden stakes! ;) Great, crazy people who routinly torture people because parents blame satan possesing their children instead question their way of raising children and tap water. Yes, that will really impress a vampire.
Monsoon28 04-13-04, 03:35 PM	Why do you think you can detect invisible people with thermo equipment. You couldn't in 2Ed with infravision, or? Jets would fly for some days, after that defenses will be in place and they will be brought down en masses and special solders would easily be detected and neutralized thanks to divinations. Besides where should those jets take of and land? Infrared and Thermo-imaging work differently... You seem to forget Wizards are a minority even in Faerun with limited resources, where as every single soldier would have a M-16/AK-74 with heavy with every squad in possession of Heavy weapon support, Shoulder launched rockets and gernades. hmmmm AirCraft Carriers! And be hit back with contaginion and other diseases. Try to heal mummy rot without magic. Once again we're looking at supplies and the spread of chemical and biological weapons are nearly limitless (and the spread of certain gases can travel alot faster than contagion) where as every time a cleric or mage dies that becomes a lose of resources that can take years to replace, as opposed to 6 months you can have complete regiments for new soldiers. Which will laugh about those funny attempts because with quench fires is no problem. Therewhile air elementals take out the planes. Read-up on napalm it isn't a fire, it is a chemical jelly. And once again find me a elemental that can travel at Mach 2++ How do you know that? DR applies for every bullet and things with higher DR would take nearly no damage from the cannon besides that the important people will be protected by protection from arrows and ironguard. And things with regeneration laugh about a A-10. Do even now what the rate of fire for a Vulcan cannon is? even if every bullet only did 1hp of damage each that could still be 1000's of points of damage in only a handful of seconds, then if necessary drop a incendiary on the target afterwards. Modern missiles would be mostly useless because they can't lock on living creatures. Also you don't have to chase the jets, they have come to you. A air elemental above the target of the planes which turns into a whirlewind when they approach is enough to destroy them. Also don't you think mages will counter attack and destroy the improvised air strips? After two days there won't be anyplace left on Faerun where those yets could start. Not at all true about missiles, there are wire-guided and of course point and fire missiles and quick-fire tube launched rockets, and dragons are fairly LARGE targets, warfare was designed with the concept that not every bullet or missile will hit (IIRC in Vietnam it was estimated that only 1 in every 10,000 bullets actually hit a target). Bombers also have a huge range, they could airstrip from earth travel through the gate hit their target and return to earth for fuel and ammo. Faerun would only sit there and wait till they are overrunned yes, otherwise earth will loose. Sorry a population of 6 billion humans versus a population of what? 500,000 mixed species who don't mostly trust or get along. (try getting goblins and Orcs to work with Dwarves, or Red Dragon to work with Gold/Silver, good luck). Great, crazy people who routinly torture people because parents blame satan possesing their children instead question their way of raising children and tap water. Yes, that will really impress a vampire. Careful with that, I may be agnostic but many people have very strong faiths in God/Allah/ Hindi pantheon/Bhudda. And catholics do believe in the blessing of water. And if earth were under attack from Werebeasts and Vampire you don't think we couldn't adapt to that and use common folklore like Silver to kill them? What are we somehow to dumb to figure this out? I highly doubt this... Also consider that Faerun in a medieval world, meaning they have no idea about mirco-organisms the concept of germs or bacteria. Science could very likely find a cure for many diseases that faerun can only handle through divine help.
Kuje31 04-13-04, 03:44 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Sorry a population of 6 billion humans versus a population of what? 500,000 mixed species who don't mostly trust or get along. (try getting goblins and Orcs to work with Dwarves, or Red Dragon to work with Gold/Silver, good luck). Also consider that Faerun in a medieval world, meaning they have no idea about mirco-organisms the concept of germs or bacteria. Science could very likely find a cure for many diseases that faerun can only handle through divine help. [/B] Actually Faerun alone has more then 68 million inhabitants (see page 98 of the FRCS.) This does not include Maztica, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara. :) And according to Ed science in FR is advanced. They know how the body works, how diseases work, etc, considering there is a goddess of disease as well. So many would know these things, especially adventurers.
Derren S. 04-13-04, 03:59 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Infrared and Thermo-imaging work differently... Still, you don't give any reason why this things should pick up invisible things. You seem to forget Wizards are a minority even in Faerun with limited resources, where as every single soldier would have a M-16/AK-74 with heavy with every squad in possession of Heavy weapon support, Shoulder launched rockets and gernades. And how many of those heavy equipped soldiers can a single mage slay before he has to rethreat for the day? Dozens? Hundreds? Wizards have unlimited ressources, their only limit is how many they can use daily. With that powerfull magic available a single mage is worth whole squadrons of soldiers no mather how they are equipped. hmmmm AirCraft Carriers! And how do you get aircraft carriers through a portal? It has to be hugh and waterbound on bouth sides. Besides a single mage can take it out. How would you protect it? Once again we're looking at supplies and the spread of chemical and biological weapons are nearly limitless (and the spread of certain gases can travel alot faster than contagion) where as every time a cleric or mage dies that becomes a lose of resources that can take years to replace, as opposed to 6 months you can have complete regiments for new soldiers. Or mearly minutes untill ressurection is casted. And a single high level caster can kill a regiment in seconds. Bioweapons? Cure diesease is low level. Gas? Gust of wind is enough to blow it away from the people/soldiers. Read-up on napalm it isn't a fire, it is a chemical jelly. And once again find me a elemental that can travel at Mach 2++ Does Napalm Burn? If yes quench puts it out. Why should a elemental chase a jet? It simply waits over the forest till the jet comes to it. Do even now what the rate of fire for a Vulcan cannon is? even if every bullet only did 1hp of damage each that could still be 1000's of points of damage in only a handful of seconds, then if necessary drop a incendiary on the target afterwards. And every one of this shots has to penetrate DR 15. Rate of fire doesn't matter. Droping an incendiary at the target? Good luck finding a worthwile target in the FR which is not imun to fire. Not ALL missiles are heat/radar seeking, there are wire-guided and of course point and fire missiles and dragons are fairly LARGE targets, warfare was designed with the concept that not every bullet or missile will hit (IIRC in Vietnam it was estimated that only 1 in every 10,000 bullets actually hit a target). Just for the record, who has won Vietnam? And good luck firing a wired missile from a jet. And while dragons are large they are also relativly fast. Dumb missiles will have a hard time hitting it. Bombers also have a huge range, they could airstrip from earth travel through the gate hit their target and return to earth for fuel and ammo. What is your definition of portal? First carrier sized portals and now bomber sized airborne portals? And a wall of force before the portal can stop those bombers pretty good. Not to mention that mages can cross the portals as well and attack earth. With devestating effect I might add. One mage one army base every day. Sorry a population of 6 billion humans versus a population of what? 500,000 mixed species who don't mostly trust or get along. (try getting goblins and Orcs to work with Dwarves, or Red Dragon to work with Gold/Silver, good luck). Of course those 6 billion people aren't all soldiers and don't trust each other as well. And if earth were under attack from Werebeasts and Vampire you don't think we couldn't adapt to that and use common folklore like Silver to kill them? What are we somehow to dumb to figure this out? I highly doubt this... Except thet there are dozent of different myths how to kill a vampire. Garlic? Doesn't work. Plow it? Only paralyses it. And good luck figuring out that you need Cold Iron weapons against this Balor. Also consider that Faerun in a medieval world, meaning they have no idea about mirco-organisms the concept of germs or bacteria. Science could very likely find a cure for many diseases that faerun can only handle through divine help. Look at the psionic handbook. They are not that unknowledgable. And mummy rot is a magical disease and can only be cured by magic. No ammount of antibiotica can help against this. It can maybe stop the infaction for a time, but not remove it. Also no amount of technology can kill a shadow not even a H-Bomb.
Another Gnome 04-13-04, 04:20 PM	Did I already mention that any portal only allows 850 lb. of gear to be carried through by a person..? :) Unless the Earth forces spend the time and resources to build naval bases and airports and weapons factories (all the time undetected and uninterrupted by anyone on Toril, naturally) on the Realms side of the portal, there will be no warships, no tanks, no aircraft mounted vulcan cannons, no heavy artillery. Earth would be going to war very much like in the initial attack in Starship Troopers, emptying their guns without any visible effect at monsters the size of a house - only that the biggest of Torilian monsters tend to be infinitely more intelligent and powerful than the bugs in the movie. While the best of Torilian forces could kill those creatures by pointing a finger at them. Yep, I'm really impressed by the superior technology of the invaders. :D
Bleegh 04-13-04, 04:45 PM	I really don't think that Earth forces could do a lot against faerun. Especially if you consider the following: The powerful NPCs and faerunian pantheon have ACs so high that the average soldier cannot even hit them I don't care if they have freaking huge 1billion bullet clip gatling gun from hell that does 27d20 damage they cannot even hit these people and one fireball from any semi powerful mage will most likely kill every soldier engulfed by it. Basically, about 20 or less powerful faerunians and a couple dieties and i bet all earths armies are dead in a matter of minutes(ok thats a little exaggerated since they can only cast one spell every six seconds). Oh btw I dont care if you have bio weapons nukes whatever most of these people have huge DR and resistance to elements plus have huge saves and elminster at least has evasion from his rogue levels so um we cant even hit him. How you expect to kill faerun if you cant even touch their guys? oops that was almost a mini-rant.
Rick Day 04-13-04, 05:19 PM	Teleport without error, followed by a quickend prismatic shell. Now for the fun part. It starts raining fire, lightning, meteors, time starts doing funny things, the planes that attempt to take off are smashed by elementals of earth and air, thoes that are already launched are pulverised when they hit the ground passing threw a reverse gravity field..... Am I missing anything.... Oh yeah This is a good guy so no undead and no demons, so maybe a golem or two to take out the "hardened positions that the earthlings have erected. If things are desperate then look at the spell mycontils last resort. If I remember corectly it releases all the stored spell energy in a mages mind as destructive force in a sphere around the wizard killing him. But doing every level of memorised spell as a d6, I believe, dmg. If they are a fairly powerful mage that is around 160 d 6 to everything in a mile I think. Clone grows repeat. :angel: Of course that is a second edition Halruan spell, but Elminster knows it.
Monsoon28 04-13-04, 06:37 PM	Go to the beginning of the thread where it is assumed that Earth CAN portal through large vehicles/Vessels. It was also assumed that the portals couldn't just be shut off. Also the beginning of the thread assumed that All of NATO, Russia and China were allied. (This includes NATO members like Canada and Sweden two countries VERY unlikely to ever get involved in this type of conquest.) And how many of those heavy equipped soldiers can a single mage slay before he has to rethreat for the day? Dozens? Hundreds? Wizards have unlimited ressources, their only limit is how many they can use daily. With that powerfull magic available a single mage is worth whole squadrons of soldiers no mather how they are equipped. And only one sniper bullet is needed to kill the mage. And how many of those heavy equipped soldiers can a single mage slay before he has to rethreat for the day? Dozens? Hundreds? Wizards have unlimited ressources, their only limit is how many they can use daily. With that powerfull magic available a single mage is worth whole squadrons of soldiers no mather how they are equipped. And how many Clerics and Wizards do you think are running around that are Epic or even 10+ levels not that many really. Does Napalm Burn? If yes quench puts it out. Why should a elemental chase a jet? It simply waits over the forest till the jet comes to it. Hard to put it out when it's stuck to you. And have you ever tried to hit something moving really quickly, in game terms the negative for hitting a object moving over 2 times the speed of sound should be extremely steep. And every one of this shots has to penetrate DR 15. Rate of fire doesn't matter. Droping an incendiary at the target? Good luck finding a worthwile target in the FR which is not imun to fire. Hummm Depleted Uranium 20mm rounds, nahhhh couldn't possibly do more than 15 points of damage...hell in D20Modern a Dessert Eagle Handgun does 2d6. Better yet the Berret Light 50 Rifle does 2d12 (this would be that sniper rifle I mentioned earlier, that can hit targets over 2000 metre away and has one of the most advanced scoping systems in the world.) We are talking single rounds doing about 5d12 or 6d12 easily. Not immune to fire...Black Dragons, white Dragon, Green Dragons...oh forget it, all dragons expect a few. Trolls, Most Giants, Umber Hulks, Treant, and just how many wizards/clerics do you think are going to risk summoning large scale groups of Demons/Devils? They could just as likely turn on the summoner and once again were talking high level spells. Just for the record, who has won Vietnam? And good luck firing a wired missile from a jet. And while dragons are large they are also relativly fast. Dumb missiles will have a hard time hitting it. The point was that waste ammo is expected, do you think the vietmanese really had a better hit ratio? Who said missiles can only be fired from jets!? Ever see what a Assault helicopter can do? Load that up with racks of Hellfires and Tube missiles and it'll take a Dragon down in seconds. Except thet there are dozent of different myths how to kill a vampire. Garlic? Doesn't work. Plow it? Only paralyses it. And good luck figuring out that you need Cold Iron weapons against this Balor. Where do you think the concept of Cold Iron came from, those same myths, and yes somethings might not work like garlic but how long do you think it's going to take to figure that out? Look at the psionic handbook. They are not that unknowledgable. Great so a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of faerunians (psions) have some vague concept on micro-organisms and no skill in modern science. Basically, about 20 or less powerful faerunians and a couple dieties and i bet all earths armies are dead in a matter of minutes Oh the gods have come out eh? Well earth has a few of these...Thor, Zeus, Shiva, Kami Spirits, etc...and the Mulhorandi pathos, what do they do? Earth is their home, Faerun is just this little hotel resort they've been hanging out at. Same with Tyr. Earth would be going to war very much like in the initial attack in Starship Troopers Are you seriously bring up that piece of junk movie...the one where not a single intelligent tactic or strategy was used? Not even orbital bombardment? And this is not even assuming some countries sue for peace or just sell out, I could easily imaging Zhentil or a Major Thieves Guild selling secrets, magic items, or even supplying clerics and wizards as consultants. That's it from me this is starting to remind me of one of those Star Trek vs. Star Wars debates. And I apologize if i've ranted ;)
Desies 04-13-04, 09:25 PM	If you count the Faerunian gods you've gotta count in the dieties of earth as well.
Another Gnome 04-13-04, 11:59 PM	Go to the beginning of the thread where it is assumed that Earth CAN portal through large vehicles/Vessels. It was also assumed that the portals couldn't just be shut off. Ah, fine. I read it too quickly and only saw the "large enough" part, not taking into consideration that it would obviously allow unlimited transport capacity as well. Well, with that final limitation removed from Earth (and let me tell you, I would've preferred the Starship Troopers approach - there would've at least been some interest in the war that way) I'll stop whining. Earth wins, but they can never take over everything (large weaponry won't do any good underground for example), and will suffer heavy civilian casualties from the desperate retributive strikes (an elemental swarm cast at the heart of a big city is going to be unstoppable for a good while and once the large weapons required to kill an elemental finally arrive and are used, they're bound to wreck a big portion of the city as well). But, that's just a scenario where Earth has unlimited advantage while Toril can do nothing. Removing even one of Torilian limitations or applying one to Earth where there should be one will make the outcome completely opposite. (By the way, gods interfering wouldn't do any good to Earth. Without Ao's permission, not a single foreign deity could come through, let alone use their powers.)
Derren S. 04-14-04, 12:58 AM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 And only one sniper bullet is needed to kill the mage. When it penetrates invisibility and other protection spells. And an hour later the clone awakens. (or seconds later the astral projecting mage). And how many Clerics and Wizards do you think are running around that are Epic or even 10+ levels not that many really.[/b] There was a counting some time ago. I think we ended with 60+ living epic mages which are known. Lvl 10+ caster would number in the thousands[quote] Hard to put it out when it's stuck to you. And have you ever tried to hit something moving really quickly, in game terms the negative for hitting a object moving over 2 times the speed of sound should be extremely steep. In game terms such an penalty doesn't exist. And I don't have to hit a plane with an tornado. Also what can those planes do at mach2? Missiles don't work and bombs would't hit. To attack it has to slow down. [b][quote]Hummm Depleted Uranium 20mm rounds, nahhhh couldn't possibly do more than 15 points of damage...hell in D20Modern a Dessert Eagle Handgun does 2d6. Better yet the Berret Light 50 Rifle does 2d12 (this would be that sniper rifle I mentioned earlier, that can hit targets over 2000 metre away and has one of the most advanced scoping systems in the world.) We are talking single rounds doing about 5d12 or 6d12 easily. So this gun is half es effective as a 120mm tank gun? (12w12). Sure.... Not immune to fire...Black Dragons, white Dragon, Green Dragons...oh forget it, all dragons expect a few. Trolls, Most Giants, Umber Hulks, Treant, and just how many wizards/clerics do you think are going to risk summoning large scale groups of Demons/Devils? They could just as likely turn on the summoner and once again were talking high level spells. Energy Immunity, Protection from Energy,... And summoned creatures can't turn against you except someone takes controll of them. That are not real creatures. And when attacking earth rampaging demons/undead are the earthlings problem. The point was that waste ammo is expected, do you think the vietmanese really had a better hit ratio? Who said missiles can only be fired from jets!? Ever see what a Assault helicopter can do? Load that up with racks of Hellfires and Tube missiles and it'll take a Dragon down in seconds. Ok so you penetrate the invisibility of the dragon, Fire an unguided missile or even a air to ground missile at a flying dragon while you are still moving so fast that the air elemental get you?. You still asume that the faerunian creatures do nothing and sit there to be shot down. Where do you think the concept of Cold Iron came from, those same myths, and yes somethings might not work like garlic but how long do you think it's going to take to figure that out? Beacuase earth doesn't has cold iron, mithril, andamantium? Great so a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of faerunians (psions) have some vague concept on micro-organisms and no skill in modern science. How many normal citicens in the world have anything but a vague concept of micro-organism and skill in modern sience? Not everyone has to be a scientist. Oh the gods have come out eh? Well earth has a few of these...Thor, Zeus, Shiva, Kami Spirits, etc...and the Mulhorandi pathos, what do they do? Earth is their home, Faerun is just this little hotel resort they've been hanging out at. Same with Tyr. No. If the deity does exist on multiple worlds, they are not the same deity. See the Lolth of Grayhawk for an example. And this is not even assuming some countries sue for peace or just sell out, I could easily imaging Zhentil or a Major Thieves Guild selling secrets, magic items, or even supplying clerics and wizards as consultants. While earth is waging an all out war? Hardly. To find someone for you to spy you have to be liked. And when earth uses bio-weapons and gas no one will like them. Also the pay would be exorbitant because FR still uses gold for payment. And same could happen on earths side selling weapon technology to Faerun.[b][quote] Just think about it. Earth would win any direct confrontation with FR armies, but what then? What happens when those wizards counterattack? One mage, one army base. The initial forces would be destroyed very quickly. The strength of FR is guerilia tactics and not open combat. And against this tactic modern armies can do nothing. Just watch what is happening in Irak. And does people don't have invisibility, teleport, and meteor swarms. And when Faerun attack earth they also can use mass destruction spells. A shadow let loose in a capital city and you have a serious problem because every inhabitant will be turned into a shadow and you can't kill shadows without magic. And withous supply even the biggest tank army is useless. And guerilia tactics are very good at disrupting supply lines. And within months, faerun armies will be equipped with guns. They may not be as trained as earth soldiers would be, but still a higher threat than with swords and bows.
Jalast 04-14-04, 01:25 AM	Originally posted by Mystery Man Stop this. This is getting very very silly now. Very silly indeed.[/b][/COLONEL] [/B] Indeed. :looloo: P.S.: FR would win! We're talking boring you and me versus magic and dragons.
Archangel 04-14-04, 03:46 AM	Look, Earth will definetly win in any open warfare but them after mages and clerics and experienced warriors go into hiding and make plans for guerrila tactics and domination of Earth leaders, then the war would soon turn to FR benefit!
mortellan 04-14-04, 04:17 AM	Look, Earth will definetly win in any open warfare but them after mages and clerics and experienced warriors go into hiding and make plans for guerrila tactics and domination of Earth leaders, then the war would soon turn to FR benefit! By the time it got to guerilla tactics, then Faerun's old evil enemies would be snitching and selling the 'good' folk out. I also think evil Faerunians would be the ones first dominating and subverting the Earthly rulers, not the El's and Khel's. (think what would happen if the Zhents found out about Fort Knox). This would be a double-whammy for peace-loving Toril.
Monsoon28 04-14-04, 05:00 AM	Let's clear some things up... Invisibility only makes you INVISIBLE it does nothing to suppress your bodies temperature, Thermo-Imaging therefore would be able to pick up "heat signatures". Protection from Arrows is only good for stopping 100 points of damage, then it is dispelled. Most Creatures that can fly have at best a speed of 120' so top speed is generally only 54.5 mph even at cruising speeds a jet will be moving at over 500 mph a A-10 or Helicopter will still be flying in excess of 150mph. And how many creatures have Perfect maneuverability? Or even good? Fiends are only controlled until the summoner is dead, should this happen and in many cases it would the fiend's leash would disappear. Thereby potentially causing havok to anyone and everyone. Earth are the instigators in this conflict which would mean they would first do alot of Recon, Earth has Huge stockpiles of Gold alot more than what is just sitting in fort knox. If the initial attack were on the Sword Coast/Lantan/Lands of Intrigue. Then what are the chances of Thay, Halruaa getting involved? If Faerunians are using contagion/cloud kill...etc. than earth would possibly use chem/bio weapons...still we don't know what conventions earth would keep to on a foreign world. 1000's of mages/clerics at over 10th level is really still not that much. Immunity to Energy/Clone... once again high level spells that not every mage has. Of the 1000's of spellcaster over 10th level how many are 15th, 16th, 18th? The percentage gets smaller and smaller. What MAYBE a couple of hundred whom can cast 9th level spells with the majority of them not any where near the sword coast. And of these couple of hundred spellcaster how many have a clone in stasis....10%...20? So this gun is half es effective as a 120mm tank gun? (12w12). Sure.... Considering that a vulcan can chew up and spit out a tanks in only seconds, considering that a 25mm machine gun in D20 does 4d12 points of damage and doesn't have the same velocity or depleted uranium rounds....yes sure, in fact very sure. Ao is a Overpower, but many would consider God/Allah to be this as well, if not even something even more powerful (Ao still answers to someone even more powerful.) Iraq?? American's aren't Fully at war with Iraq right now, what you have are soldiers trained for war acting as police...but every time there is a open conflict who do you think wins...look at Afganistan the percentage of casualties there are miniscule. Originally posted by Mystery Man Stop this. This is getting very very silly now. Very silly indeed. I'm gonna have to agree with this one! ;) New topic... Middle-Earth vs. Narnia :behold:
newbDM 04-14-04, 07:19 AM	Read-up on napalm it isn't a fire, it is a chemical jelly. And once again find me a elemental that can travel at Mach 2++ Find me a jet that can fly in the storms that Druids/Wizards/Clerics can conjure. Hey if Thay can keep itself nice all year around other groups should be able to make it miserable.
Derren S. 04-14-04, 07:43 AM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Let's clear some things up... Invisibility only makes you INVISIBLE it does nothing to suppress your bodies temperature, Thermo-Imaging therefore would be able to pick up "heat signatures". You still didn't answer the question if invisibility made you invisible for infravision. Yes the spell makes you invisible. Any proof that it not makes you also invisible for thermo equipment? It works against darkvision. Protection from Arrows is only good for stopping 100 points of damage, then it is dispelled. First do 100 damage against an invisible mage. Even if Thermo equipment picks them up it is very hard. Thermo vision isn't very parctical in combat. Most Creatures that can fly have at best a speed of 120' so top speed is generally only 54.5 mph even at cruising speeds a jet will be moving at over 500 mph a A-10 or Helicopter will still be flying in excess of 150mph. And how many creatures have Perfect maneuverability? Or even good? Every creature that can fly? Earth might have air dominance, but thats usless if a single mage can destroy a airfield within minutes. Fiends are only controlled until the summoner is dead, should this happen and in many cases it would the fiend's leash would disappear. Thereby potentially causing havok to anyone and everyone. Not by the summoning rules in teh PHB. Earth are the instigators in this conflict which would mean they would first do alot of Recon, Earth has Huge stockpiles of Gold alot more than what is just sitting in fort knox. If the initial attack were on the Sword Coast/Lantan/Lands of Intrigue. Then what are the chances of Thay, Halruaa getting involved? High when they consider it a threat. And a unknown technological army pouring through portals are a threat. If Faerunians are using contagion/cloud kill...etc. than earth would possibly use chem/bio weapons...still we don't know what conventions earth would keep to on a foreign world. Except taht the FR can better defend themself against bioweapons than earth could. 1000's of mages/clerics at over 10th level is really still not that much. Immunity to Energy/Clone... once again high level spells that not every mage has. Of the 1000's of spellcaster over 10th level how many are 15th, 16th, 18th? The percentage gets smaller and smaller. What MAYBE a couple of hundred whom can cast 9th level spells with the majority of them not any where near the sword coast. And of these couple of hundred spellcaster how many have a clone in stasis....10%...20? That were the known spellcasters (I think only wizards) Level 10 isn't that high in Faerun. And those figuers don't include any monsterous spellcaster. Even if there are only 100 wizards with 9th level spells (highly unlikely more like 500+) every of those wizards can take out 100 or more soldiers a day. How long can earth armies resist against this firepower? Not to mention the epic spellcaster who can destroy a metropolis on earth alone. How sould earths armies fight when, after 1 day theri airports are destroyed, supply lines disrupted and half of their tanks was blown up in the night and undeath haunt their siedes of the portals? Considering that a vulcan can chew up and spit out a tanks in only seconds, considering that a 25mm machine gun in D20 does 4d12 points of damage and doesn't have the same velocity or depleted uranium rounds....yes sure, in fact very sure. So what would a vulcan cannon do? 6w12? Thats 36 damage a round. -15 for DR its 21. Not very much when the enemy has 100+ HP, protection from arrows and stone skin on. The A10 has to fire on a mage for about 1 minute to kill him. Lots of time to destroy the plane. Ao is a Overpower, but many would consider God/Allah to be this as well, if not even something even more powerful (Ao still answers to someone even more powerful.) Yes, the DM. Iraq?? American's aren't Fully at war with Iraq right now, what you have are soldiers trained for war acting as police...but every time there is a open conflict who do you think wins...look at Afganistan the percentage of casualties there are miniscule. I don't deny that earth will have the upper hand in open conflict. But to conquer a country there is more than open conflict. You also do have to do those police duties. And when US, one of the most advanced armies in the world, have a hard time to police Irak, how do you think it will look in Faerun where a single man can have the firepower of a whole carrier fleet? Modern armies can wipe the floor with every regular army Faerun can muster, but they are totally defenseless if wizards (or any magical class) attack by night. Originally posted by Mystery Man Stop this. This is getting very very silly now. Very silly indeed. I'm gonna have to agree with this one! ;) New topic... Middle-Earth vs. Narnia :behold: Yes. Its obvious that further discussion doesn't lead to anything.
Another Gnome 04-14-04, 08:49 AM	Ao is a Overpower, but many would consider God/Allah to be this as well, if not even something even more powerful Even for the sake of argument, do not drag real world religions into the debate. It will make everyone's life easier. :)
Archangel 04-14-04, 09:44 AM	I just have to make a comment on the number of lvl 17+ mages! Are you crazy, how did you get the 100+ number of that level mages. Last time I checked my FRCS/Lord of the Darkness and other sourcebooks there wasn't that many spellcasters in Faerun! Please people don't give numbers as you like but as sourcebooks say!
Derren S. 04-14-04, 10:03 AM	Faerun not having 100 spellcaster? Thay alone would top that number. Maybe not with 17+ Spellcaster but add Cormyr and its War Wizards, Halura, Rashemen, the Shades, the elven high mages and the various churches it summs up. Larloch alone has 60 Liches under his command. In FR not every lvl 17+ spellcaster has to be named. that would fill a whole book. Every bigger city has a mage guild/academy and there a fairs only for spellcaster. And that doesn't even include the various monster races like Phaerimm, Sharn, Dragons, Kraken,... Edit: check the Entry for Haluraa in the FRCS. 1/3 of their population has "the gift" as they call it and 1/3 of that number have wizard levels from 1 up to epic. That are 186240 people with wizrad levels alone in Haluraa. Their capital city alone has 3000 practicing wizards.
Rick Day 04-14-04, 10:21 AM	Ummm... Yeah halruaa alone could defeat the Earth invasion. Larlock has over 60 18+ level liches. you do the math I could name over 50 more from just sourse material that can cast 9th level spells.
Necrontyr 04-14-04, 12:02 PM	Someone mentioned FR mages wrecking havoc on Earth. But would magic even work on Earth. On an entirely new world, would Earth forces use nukes? There's no media to decry the use of suitcase nukes, or even nukes the size of Hiroshima (which compared to today's, wasn't that big). Are you trying to tell me that GWB wouldn't consider nuking little places like Shadowdale that nonetheless are home to powerful individuals. Also, are we arguing D20 rules or real life common sense? In reality, it takes one bullet to kill. What stops individuals from Earth from learning magic too, and then combining it with our technology? +5 vorpal sniper rifle anyone? And what if Earth soldiers started worshipping gods that actually respond? Who would the gods help then? The Egyptian, Finnish, faerie, Greek and Norse gods used to have worshippers on Earth, once people find out they're real, I can see a massive pagan revival. And finally. Faerun would very soon find itself the centre of an interplanar war. I'm assuming there's a reason why the planes seem to be disconnected from Earth. Thus, the emergence of modern weapons on Faerun would draw the attention of the demons, devils, 'loths, and countless other unsavory factions. Care to imagine the lengths the Baatezu would go to to get hold of 'The Bomb?'
Derren S. 04-14-04, 12:23 PM	Originally posted by Necrontyr Someone mentioned FR mages wrecking havoc on Earth. But would magic even work on Earth. And technology wouldn't work on faerun. On an entirely new world, would Earth forces use nukes? There's no media to decry the use of suitcase nukes, or even nukes the size of Hiroshima (which compared to today's, wasn't that big). Are you trying to tell me that GWB wouldn't consider nuking little places like Shadowdale that nonetheless are home to powerful individuals. And the Faerun caster wouldn't hestitate to unleash a huge undeath infestation on earth which can't be stopped without magic. Also, are we arguing D20 rules or real life common sense? In reality, it takes one bullet to kill. As could a magic missile and fireball, or even one arrow.[quote] What stops individuals from Earth from learning magic too, and then combining it with our technology? +5 vorpal sniper rifle anyone? The fact that it takes years to learn the most simple spells even ehen you are conviced that magic exists (which earth isn't) and you know what you are doing (which earth doesn't). What stops faerunian people to learn to use and manufacture weapons? Level 20 Shadowdancer with dual SMGs anyone?[quote] And what if Earth soldiers started worshipping gods that actually respond? Who would the gods help then? The Egyptian, Finnish, faerie, Greek and Norse gods used to have worshippers on Earth, once people find out they're real, I can see a massive pagan revival. Those gods would be a minority. The primary FR gods were never part of a other cosmology. And as I said before canon is that if a god is active on two worlds than they are different gods. (See Lolth) And finally. Faerun would very soon find itself the centre of an interplanar war. I'm assuming there's a reason why the planes seem to be disconnected from Earth. Thus, the emergence of modern weapons on Faerun would draw the attention of the demons, devils, 'loths, and countless other unsavory factions. Care to imagine the lengths the Baatezu would go to to get hold of 'The Bomb?' Who said earth is disconnected from the planes? We can't acces them without magic, thats all. And when there are portals on earth they must have acces to the planes.
Necrontyr 04-14-04, 01:02 PM	If Earth is connected to the planes then why isn't Earth/FR crossover world overrun by demons? Portals can be opened both ways. But that's getting OT, my point was that if Earth's separate, then every faction across the multiverse would be using FR as a gateway to Earth, thus wrecking both as they become two more battlegrounds in the Blood War gone nuclear. Obviously, when you entered the FR, you'd be forced to conceed that magic is indeed real and would do your best to learn it. As for not knowing how, torture and brainwashing can be just as effective as a magic in getting someone to talk. Making guns is also difficult if you've got no idea how. Do you know how to manufacture an assault rifle? I can't see either Elminster or Szass wanting to spread such a weapon to every two-bit bandit in Faerun, even in a world vs. world war. But what stops them worshipping FR gods as well? What then? And what about our gods? In FR, would our belief in God/Allah make Him real, even if he's not on Earth (emphasise on the if). If every American city over 100,000 were destroyed, the US would turn the entire continent of Faerun into one big glassy wasteland. Nukes these days are capable of blowing up bigger things than cities and the US alone has thousands. A war wouldn't last long. Cooler heads would prevail and realise that the only possible outcome in mutual destruction. Sure, Earth is burned, drowned and wasted by magic. But they couldn't possibly take out every silo and submarine on Earth so Faerun would end up as the afore-mentioned nuclear wasteland.
Derren S. 04-14-04, 01:17 PM	Originally posted by Necrontyr If Earth is connected to the planes then why isn't Earth/FR crossover world overrun by demons? Portals can be opened both ways. But that's getting OT, my point was that if Earth's separate, then every faction across the multiverse would be using FR as a gateway to Earth, thus wrecking both as they become two more battlegrounds in the Blood War gone nuclear. What does every faction across the multiverse want in earth? Its unimportant. Besides that Toril is connected to the rest of the multiverse only by some portals to Sigil so its hard to acces Toril first and foremost. Obviously, when you entered the FR, you'd be forced to conceed that magic is indeed real and would do your best to learn it. As for not knowing how, torture and brainwashing can be just as effective as a magic in getting someone to talk. And what use would that have? Taking a mage prisoner is hard and understanding what he is saying is ahrder. Don't forget that they don't speak english. It will take decades till the first earthling could cast spells. Making guns is also difficult if you've got no idea how. Do you know how to manufacture an assault rifle? I can't see either Elminster or Szass wanting to spread such a weapon to every two-bit bandit in Faerun, even in a world vs. world war. Making guns is easy. Wieldskill/Understand Device + Fabricate + Ignore Material Components = Mass producing Guns. But what stops them worshipping FR gods as well? What then? Nothing. And what good will bring it them? Nothing. Only because a few earthlings started worshipping faerunian gods they won't protect them when they are mass killing other followers. And what about our gods? In FR, would our belief in God/Allah make Him real, even if he's not on Earth (emphasise on the if). To hot topic to discuss. My only comment is: Can our priests cast spells? If every American city over 100,000 were destroyed, the US would turn the entire continent of Faerun into one big glassy wasteland. Nukes these days are capable of blowing up bigger things than cities and the US alone has thousands. If they aren't destroyed on sight. As unatended device they are very vulnerable and it would be very easy for clerics and wizards to find and neutralize them. So don't count on that that they can be brought anywhere near a big target. And when earth is mostly destroxed, don't you think the faerunians would have secured the portals by now? A war wouldn't last long. Cooler heads would prevail and realise that the only possible outcome in mutual destruction. Sure, Earth is burned, drowned and wasted by magic. But they couldn't possibly take out every silo and submarine on Earth so Faerun would end up as the afore-mentioned nuclear wasteland. Oh, they can take out every silo and submarine. Maybe they have to use wish, but they can. Also those nukes have to be brought to Faerun to have any effect. And even if they detonate. With the help of magic faerun can recover from nukes. But earth can't when shadows are roaming earth because they can't harm them.
Kuje31 04-14-04, 01:19 PM	Originally posted by Necrontyr Someone mentioned FR mages wrecking havoc on Earth. But would magic even work on Earth. Yes magic works on Earth, because El and company did not lose thier powers when they traveled to Earth in Ed's Wizard Three articles written up in Dragon. El even commented once or twice that if Earthlings learned to harness the magic of Earth they could have been casters.
dobrimag 04-14-04, 03:53 PM	Just to give my 2 cents. Epic level (or even high level) spellcasters are clearly unbalancing. They are unbalancing in normal campaigns, they are unbalacing in this fiction as well. Why? Simply put they can do everything. That is lame. I like Earth's side better beacuse noone there can do everything, therefore everyone can be replaced (unlike El, or one of his friends). If we contiune this discusion it must be without "El can do everything therefore Faerun would win." and of course "Earth could turn Faerun into nuclear wastland." -- my favourite :) Also i would like to exclude monsters that do not make sense like wraiths and vampires. Such monsters would clearly destroy Faerun untill now so including them is pointless. So far there has been good points on either side. Earth clearly has more soldiers then Faerun (if necesery forced drafting would produce much more then 25 mil in few years), it has much more big guns and tanks then there are summoners who can summon demons and devils. It has much more planes then there are dragons and other birdies. It also has much more ships and submarines then there are krakens. And radar should work even when invisible krakens. Also earths commanders have much more tactics and are much more trained in ways of the war then Faerunian. Also when sniping spellcasters you seem to forget that 2d10 isnt ultimate number. There are another +X like always. There are special bullets (special poisons anyone?), feats (like point blank) special rifles, sneak attacks, etc... And earth does have trained soldiers and assasins. And earths security (tech) is much better then Faerun's simply beacuse snipers work at much higher range. You seem to forget that most spells have very short durations, so they probably wont even last the entire combat (like greater invisibility). The only thing Faerun has over Earth is charm spells, and raise undead spells, but those in my opinion, are not enough to win.
Cunning Linguist 04-14-04, 03:56 PM	And radar should work even when invisible krakens. but not a silenced one..
Derren S. 04-14-04, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by dobrimag The only thing Faerun has over Earth is charm spells, and raise undead spells, but those in my opinion, are not enough to win. Only char spells? You underestimate spells. Even low level wizards can cast spells more powerfull than tank guns. Earth has more soldiers? Too bad that high level mages can kill hundreds of soldiers. Earth has many tanks? Too bad that those tanks and planes need supplies which can easily be destroyed as can the tanks itself. Undeath destroying Faerun? Sure, thats why you let them loose on Earth. And you can't rule epic mages away, they are an integral part of the FR. They can't do everything, but they can do all what was described above. Earth commanders more trained? Certainly not for the case that the enemy uses spells.
trentlanthier 04-14-04, 05:41 PM	FR can't use Wishes, They can't Use Miracles, Gods aren't getting Involved even though their very existance is threatened (Death to a follower means less power per god, and Earth is not going to give up their own gods that easily) The ignoring of Damage Reduction (DR 10/- is 10 against each single bullet of the millions of rounds fired from burst weapons etc) Earth has no limitations Faerun does... I for one role over and accept defeat :)
MoogleEmpMog 04-14-04, 07:02 PM	Why do people assume that Faerun has HIGHER LEVEL defenders than Earth has attackers? :confused: Let Faerun have its Epic mages... but who says Earth doesn't have plenty of Epic elites of its own? According to d20 Modern's guidelines, the AVERAGE modern soldier should be a 6th- or 7th-level character, and probably a Heroic (ie PC class) character; at .05% of the population of Earth, Heroic characters outnumber the TOTAL population of Faerun (65 mil, according to Ed Greenwood, which seems very high) by about 4 to 1. If we assume that 1/2 of Earth's Heroic population (.025% of the planet's total population) is in the armed services of involved countries and that 1/2 of the armed services of those countries are involved in the invasion, then Earth is fielding 75 MILLION troops, all of whom are going to be at least 5th level. Faerun, on the other hand, can field 65 million people. Now, the Forgotten Realms are a heroic, high magic world. We'll give the defenders of Faerun a break and say that a full 10% of their population is Heroic (which is far more than the amount shown in FR books). That means that Faerun can field a grand total of, wait for it, 6.5 million Heroic defenders who average a lower level/CR than their Earth counterparts. In 10th-level Heroic characters, Earth has a huge advantage. Once again, we'll give Faerun the benefit of the doubt and say that 10% of its Heroics are of at least 10th level (needless to say, far, FAR more than is backed up by the books); with its many Epic characters, the average may be dragged up. About 650,000 10th-level or higher characters. Nasty. Except that Earth fields a full 3 million such characters if only _1%_ of its total Heroic population is of 10th level. But what about 20th-level characters? Well, if only 1% of the 10th-level plus population is 20th-level or higher for Earth and 10% is for Faerun, we finally have an advantage for the Realms, 150,000 to 30,000 (although if Earth's on-Toril Heroics are skewed so that almost all 20th-level Earthlings are involved in the invasion, it becomes 150,000 to 120,000). Anyway, this seems wildly unrealistic: 150,000 Epic or near-Epic characters? Drizzt Do'urden is not 20th-level according to his official stats. Are we really supposed to believe that Faerun boasts 150,000 characters more powerful than him? Counting up the Epic characters in the various Realms sourcebooks certainly doesn't lead to this conclusion. In fact, there are of course not 150,000 CHARACTERS in all the Realms sourcebooks. More realistically, let's say that the 10% rule holds only for Faerun's total heroic characters (Earth's population is 99% ordinary, Faerun's only 90%). 5% of Faerun's Heroic characters are at least 10th level, while 1% of Earth's are. 1% of Faerun AND Earth's populations are 20th level. Finally, 1% of the 20th-level population of Faerun is least 30th level, while 0.25% of Earth's population is. Even this leaves us with more 3,000 Epic or near-Epic characters in Faerun. Faction; Heroic; 10th+; 20th+; 30th+ Faerun (Total); 6.5 mil; 325 thou; 3,250; 32 1/4 Earth (Invade); 75 mil; 750 thou; 7,500; 16 Earth (Total); 300 mil; 3 mil; 30,000; 64 Now, while Elminster (ELH-version, CR 39) can probably take out any one Epic Earthling, Earth should also be able to field a EL 39 encounter fairly easily. Of those 64 total 30th-level Earthlings, most are probably in the military or related careers (martial arts experts, explorers, etc), so a higher percentage of them will be involved than of, say, 10th-level Heroic characters. A CR 32 elite special op leader, a CR 32 specialist and 8 CR 28 elite special forces troops are an EL 36 encounter, and Earth should be able to field at least 10 such teams. Faerun will have trouble matching with EL 36+ encounters of its own. Only Elminster and the Simbul are that high or higher in the ELH, for example. The contention that an Epic spellcaster is equivalent to a nuclear bomb or can 'do everything' isn't really held up in the rules; in fact, most players seem to agree that Epic fighting characters, not Epic Wizards or Clerics, are the most deadly against each other. Sure, a Faerunian archmage can wipe out thousands of 1st-level troops with minor spells (not that he'll encounter any from Earth), and thousands of 6th-level troops (the Earth average) with spells well within his power. But if he uses his power up doing so, a pair of Earthling elite snipers of the same CR won't even break a sweat taking him down. Outnumbered at every level except 30th+ (and even there, depending on the percentage of Earth's high-Epics who come through), Faerun's finest have to worry about keeping themselves alive in the face of opponents who are their equals. Also, between Earth forces adopting magic and Faerun forces adopting technology, each is about equally likely (and simple). It may allegedly take years of study to become a mage, but a rogue who likes the looks of the shield spell takes no more time to adopt a wizard level than he would to advance his rogue level. A gun may be a relatively simple weapon to use, (although the cleaning and maintenance of many guns is complicated), but it still requires at least an extra feat (Personal Firearms Proficiency)... which a character needs to gain at least one level to take. Either way, it's a matter of gaining some experience and applying it to the problem. Except that Earth is initiating hostilities. Presumably, it will scout out Faerun a bit, learn something of magic, even acquire a few sample magic items. Earth won't be fielding any archmagi with, say, a year of study, but it will certainly be able to deploy specialists with a level or two in the Occultist advanced class from d20 Modern, perhaps even some Mages and Acolytes. In the intense opening days of the conflict, surviving characters of this type will gain levels quickly.
MoogleEmpMog 04-14-04, 07:14 PM	Originally posted by trentlanthier FR can't use Wishes, They can't Use Miracles, Gods aren't getting Involved even though their very existance is threatened (Death to a follower means less power per god, and Earth is not going to give up their own gods that easily) The ignoring of Damage Reduction (DR 10/- is 10 against each single bullet of the millions of rounds fired from burst weapons etc) Earth has no limitations Faerun does... I for one role over and accept defeat :) Faerun's gods are welcome to tangle with Earth's. The Egyptian and Norse pantheons from Dieties and Demigods apparently existed on Earth in any timeline that includes Faerun, yet on Earth they were overthrown - whatever the reason, why should we assume Faerun's native immortals will have an impact? DR 10 is MINOR; Burst Fire (which basically ALL Earth soldiers will be using) allows a 'mere' M16 to deal 4d8+2 damage in the hands of a specialist (which most Earth soldiers will be) - that's 20 AVERAGE damage, with a max of 42. DR 10/- reduces this to 10 average, max 32. An average 3rd-level Wizard (9 hp) will go down from the average post-DR damage. A max-hp 3rd-level Wizard (12 hp) nearly will. In fact, an average-hp 20th-level Wizard (52 hp) is at significant risk - one high-rolled damage crit and he's down.
Another Gnome 04-14-04, 11:51 PM	If we want to get realistic with the Earth side stuff, here are a couple of random thoughts: Damage reduction would count separately against each bullet fired in a burst. Earth troops would not follow d20 Modern ideas of level (hey, it was already stated that those rules are unrealistic, so let's keep them unrealistic for all purposes!). A typical earth soldier dies from one or two hits from any weapon, hence they're 1st to 2nd level, the best of the best maybe around 10th. There are people like shaolin monks that could call themselves near-epic in ability, but chances are you don't see too many of them as professional soldiers.
Orion the Raven 04-15-04, 12:26 AM	Well, if you want to use Earth logic over D20 modern rules, a 44 magnum is going to be doing something like 3d10 to 2d20 damage, which more than compensates for limited human durability.
Derren S. 04-15-04, 12:33 AM	Why can't FR use whishes and miracles? That are normal 9th level spells and everyone at 17+ level can cast them. High Level earthlings: At higher level equipment counts. An earthling might be higher than 3rd level, but without magical equipment he will be much weaker than a fearunian counterpart. What can an epic earthling do besides firing the same useless guns at the wizard as the low level soldiers do? Nothing. He can't counter any high level ability of faerunian classes. The only thing hes better than the rest is that he can take some more shots. Nothing 2-3 Fireballs more can't kill.
MoogleEmpMog 04-15-04, 02:58 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. Why can't FR use whishes and miracles? That are normal 9th level spells and everyone at 17+ level can cast them. FR is welcome to wishes and miracles, at least the specifics listed in the PHB. As for the 'greater' wish and miracle effects... well, we know how those usually work out... Originally posted by Derren S. Why can't FR use whishes and miracles? That are normal 9th level spells and everyone at 17+ level can cast them. Spoken like a person who hasn't played a basically d20 Modern character in a basically D&D campaign. :D My 12th-level dwarf with 50% d20 Modern classes and absolutely no magic-using classes (Fighter2/Ranger2/Soldier 5/Deepwood Sniper 2/Fast Hero 1) routinely outdamages all the other party members (including the NPC 15th-level hybrid Paladin and 13th-level Sorceress/Shadow Adept with over-their-level gear). The only 'magic' he benefits from is weapon enchantments to make his single shot rifle semi-automatic - nothing he can't get with Earth gear. He defeated an 18th-level Wizard in one shot by triggering his contingent teleport: the contingency referred to massive damage saves. :D (6d8+6 on a crit will do that to you) Mind you, this is with an SEMI-automatic weapon and foolish feat choices; optimized and with a full automatic, this would be 4d8+2 per shot, 8d8+6 per crit. With a G3 instead of an M16 it would be 4d10+2 and 8d10+6. A 20th-level Earthling can fire the same 'useless' G3 (except that it's Masterwork +5) 4 times, 5 if he's taken enough Gunslinger levels, dealing 4d10+4 (greater specialization) damage, automatically confirming critical hits any time he gets a 19-20. Or, he can force a critical hit by taking a -8 penalty on his attack (which he can easily make), firing from well out of 20th-level spell range. Or, he can create a small, silent flying robot capable of delivering adequate C4 to a wizard's study in the middle of the night. Heck, since he has Evasion, he can just set off massive bombs AT HIS FEAT to kill anyone nearby, and he certainly doesn't have to worry about any silly old Fireballs (in fact, most regular troops will probably have a Fast level to get Evasion, and not have to worry much about any PHB area-effect spells other than Ice Storm, Horrid Wilting and the Mass Inflict tree).
Cunning Linguist 04-15-04, 03:46 AM	Originally posted by Orion the Raven Well, if you want to use Earth logic over D20 modern rules, a 44 magnum is going to be doing something like 3d10 to 2d20 damage, which more than compensates for limited human durability. Rightsy.. where did you make up those numbers? A Shotgun Slug does 2D10. A 44 does 2D8 (and some +1 or +2 damage depending on your ammmunition type) If you are going to use D20 rules, use the D20 rulebook, not your own experience from watching A-Team.
Archangel 04-15-04, 04:41 AM	Well I believe Another Gnome should stick by the same principles. If we are using D&D numbers for FR then D20 modern should be used for Earth!
Helmo 04-15-04, 05:06 AM	If our world attacked Faerun without warning it would be a slaughter. Many people would die. The only ones who would be able to stand were powerful wizards, not even sorcerers (their spell array is too limited). Faerun“s only chance would be enchantment spells. Dominating generals and soldiers would give them an opportunity to strike back, but most people would die so, what would they fight for?.
Another Gnome 04-15-04, 05:39 AM	Archangel, my point was that all this talk about how powerful Earth weapons should "really" be has its flipside - the "fact" that most Earth people would be cannon fodder (so to speak) compared to Torilian superhumans. Meaning that game terms should indeed be used when making comparisons, or things will turn into a "my daddy could beat your daddy" kind of argument where people just keep coming up with rules of their own while ignoring those of everyone else. Well, I wouldn't exactly say it hasn't become that already, but anyway, I'm glad you agree. :D
Orion the Raven 04-15-04, 06:15 AM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Rightsy.. where did you make up those numbers? A Shotgun Slug does 2D10. A 44 does 2D8 (and some +1 or +2 damage depending on your ammmunition type) If you are going to use D20 rules, use the D20 rulebook, not your own experience from watching A-Team. It was a rebuttal to Another Gnome's statement about using D20 numbers for Faerun but generalizations for the real world. A 44 might do 2d8 in D20 terms, but to produce the same level of damage in D20 terms as it is capable of in the real world (Based on metal penetration.), it would need to do approximately 3d10 or 2d20.
Cunning Linguist 04-15-04, 07:15 AM	Originally posted by Orion the Raven It was a rebuttal to Another Gnome's statement about using D20 numbers for Faerun but generalizations for the real world. A 44 might do 2d8 in D20 terms, but to produce the same level of damage in D20 terms as it is capable of in the real world (Based on metal penetration.), it would need to do approximately 3d10 or 2d20. What do you base this on? How many HD do you have? And how how much of "earth" logic resistence does metal have? With this logic, every arrow and pircing weapon that does more then 1D4 in damage, should be a wounding weapon, since getting hit for 4hp damage, and you will bleed to death. On top of that, getting 3-4 hp damage from something should leave you exhausted and shaken, since losing 50% of your HP would cripel you. Also, Daggers should be lethal. Getting stabbed in the torso or head kills. Just as much, if not even more, then a bullet does. A normal sword may not have the ability to get past metal, but it does get past meat, skinn and bones, so it would leave a bigger and more fatal wound then a bullet that just leave a small wound.
mortellan 04-15-04, 07:21 AM	Having never looked at d20 modern, is it really that watered down? Does d20 modern use the exact same HP and AC rules as D&D or is it more like Star Wars where you can pretty much get plastered by a lucky critical straight to wounds? Example, an Epic barbarian using SW rules would be just as likely to die in a single shot as a 1st level barbarian with the same CON. The reason I ask is if there was even a slight disparity in baseline D&D rules like there is in SW...then comparing damages in this arguement might be flawed.
Archangel 04-15-04, 07:32 AM	Having never looked at d20 modern, is it really that watered down? Does d20 modern use the exact same HP and AC rules as D&D or is it more like Star Wars where you can pretty much get plastered by a lucky critical straight to wounds? Example, an Epic barbarian using SW rules would be just as likely to die in a single shot as a 1st level barbarian with the same CON. The reason I ask is if there was even a slight disparity in baseline D&D rules like there is in SW...then comparing damages in this arguement might be flawed. No, it the same as D&D! Unrealisticly the same, but the same! A normal sword may not have the ability to get past metal, but it does get past meat, skinn and bones, so it would leave a bigger and more fatal wound then a bullet that just leave a small wound. Actually NO, bullet will not make a big hole but has a bigger chance to kill you! Unlike a sword that when pierced through somebody will just damage organs that are hit, a bullet will once inside a body start circleing and do damage to more organs so even if you miss somebodies hearth with a sword a bullet can still hit it!
newbDM 04-15-04, 07:38 AM	If you take the Epic level wizards out of Faerun... then this is like Modern Day man attacking Zulu warriors... it will be a slaughter. Take away Wish Take away the Gods Take away Epic Level Clerics / Wizards / Sorcs / Psionics Take away Undead (Which btw People like Szass Tam definitely have Wights, Wraiths and Vampires under thier command and any evil cleric can dominate undead so they aren't as useless as you say) Take away any chance of evil group joining good groups (Specially evil Religious groups that may face the loss of their god should enough followers die) But you give earth: More soldiers than they actually have (There is no way there is 25million soldiers on earth in today's age, I argued before that China the worlds largest country by population only has 2.3 million, and there was only 5 countries named.) Unlimited ability to bring in Navy and Air Force support (Even though we don't know where this said portal is.) The ability to bring 100% of the military from Earth without having Hatreds from earth affecting the homeland.. (You don't think Terroriists would attack the US if the US had no military at home?) Give Earth the ability to Ignore Damage Reduction, to Ignore Invisibilty, to ignore that most the technology that Modern Day Military use (GPS etc) wouldn't work in Faerun. Most people are ignoring Supply Lines, how Earth maintains the fuel it needs etc. The chances of Earth using its own gold reserves to pay off countries in Faerun is slim since a countries entire value factors in how much gold they have. And this arguement is still happening? Its clear by the stipulations that Earth winds hands down simply because there are too many restrictions put on Faerun and almost non on Earth.
newbDM 04-15-04, 07:40 AM	Originally posted by Archangel Actually NO, bullet will not make a big hole but has a bigger chance to kill you! Unlike a sword that when pierced through somebody will just damage organs that are hit, a bullet will once inside a body start circleing and do damage to more organs so even if you miss somebodies hearth with a sword a bullet can still hit it! Thats assuming alot 1. That your piering with a sword... which most people won't. 2. That the bullet hits a bone and isn't a powerful enough to just break the bone and burst out the other side. Now on the side of bullets... The entry wound is always very tiny the exist wound isn't....
Monsoon28 04-15-04, 07:41 AM	Also, Daggers should be lethal. Getting stabbed in the torso or head kills. Just as much, if not even more, then a bullet does. And yet people survive multiple stab wounds even in real life, even babies can survive multiple stabbings. http://www.local10.com/news/2793653/detail.html As for Krakens, who cares? No DR it only has a two tentacle that are 60 feet the others only 30 feet. Most U.S./Royal Navy ships have a Beam of at least 53 feet so actually wrapping a tentacle all the way around a ship isn't going to work (therefore on constricting damage). Forgetting Missiles and Torpedoes these ships are also armed with Cannon or Machine Guns, these would chew a Kraken apart in moments. While there are dangerous creatures in the sea (like Sahuagin). A Kraken would better be off chasing subs rather than surface ships.
Monsoon28 04-15-04, 07:56 AM	Further more if we're going with an invasion of the West Coast maybe Evermeet. What makes you think ALL of Faerun is going to jump up and team up?? Did this happen with the Horde Invasion? Only a few contries and a bunch of mercanary companies. Threat by the Sea? No, even though Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate were attacked and then havoc was spread throughout the Inner Sea. The Return of Shade? No, even with them trying to Melt the Northern Glacier and utterly destroying Tilverton. Countries in the end have their OWN self interests in mind. They have economies to run and aren't about to invest it on someone elses problem, unless they're actually allied. Haluraa are Isolationist, Thay just about everyone is their enemy, Calimshan is run by merchants so unless attacked not likely to want to throw their hard earned money away on the Sword Coast or even Amn or Tethyr (but more than happy to SELL weapons and magic to them).
newbDM 04-15-04, 08:04 AM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Further more if we're going with an invasion of the West Coast maybe Evermeet. What makes you think ALL of Faerun is going to jump up and team up?? Did this happen with the Horde Invasion? Only a few contries and a bunch of mercanary companies. Threat by the Sea? No, even though Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate were attacked and then havoc was spread throughout the Inner Sea. The Return of Shade? No, even with them trying to Melt the Northern Glacier and utterly destroying Tilverton. Countries in the end have their OWN self interests in mind. They have economies to run and aren't about to invest it on someone elses problem, unless they're actually allied. Haluraa are Isolationist, Thay just about everyone is their enemy, Calimshan is run by merchants so unless attacked not likely to want to throw their hard earned money away on the Sword Coast or even Amn or Tethyr (but more than happy to SELL weapons and magic to them). Same can be said about countries on earth ....
Cunning Linguist 04-15-04, 08:41 AM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 And yet people survive multiple stab wounds even in real life, even babies can survive multiple stabbings. http://www.local10.com/news/2793653/detail.html As for Krakens, who cares? No DR it only has a two tentacle that are 60 feet the others only 30 feet. Most U.S./Royal Navy ships have a Beam of at least 53 feet so actually wrapping a tentacle all the way around a ship isn't going to work (therefore on constricting damage). Forgetting Missiles and Torpedoes these ships are also armed with Cannon or Machine Guns, these would chew a Kraken apart in moments. While there are dangerous creatures in the sea (like Sahuagin). A Kraken would better be off chasing subs rather than surface ships. Holy moly your right.. people do survive stabb wounds.. just like people survive gun shot wounds. Guess the whole "earth logic is better then D20 logic" falls amiss then. As for the Kraken, the 20HD version is that big yes.. but the 60HD version is 3 times that it size.. so it would have a 2 arms that are 180feet long, and the rest would be 90 feet long, more then you need to tip over a carrier.
Orion the Raven 04-15-04, 08:53 AM	Calm down. What do you base this on? The damage a 44. mag can deal to earth metals which have a D&D statistcial counterpart (Or similar.). A 44 can punch through the engine block of a car or around 1/4 to 1/2 an inch of steel. Base that damage on material strengths in D&D and you get a much higher value than they have in D20 modern. You are forced to either accept the flaw or add some sort of AP property to it. How many HD do you have? And how how much of "earth" logic resistence does metal have? That is irrlevent, as it was a rebuttal to a post on holding FR to D&D rules, but allowing Earth to base its argument on logic rather than D20 modern. With this logic, every arrow and pircing weapon that does more then 1D4 in damage, should be a wounding weapon, since getting hit for 4hp damage, and you will bleed to death. On top of that, getting 3-4 hp damage from something should leave you exhausted and shaken, since losing 50% of your HP would cripel you. Also, Daggers should be lethal. Getting stabbed in the torso or head kills. Just as much, if not even more, then a bullet does. See the above. As for the Kraken, unless some sort of rules mechnics for downing ships is used, even one that large would lack to the Strength to move a carrier. The largest Kraken would have something like a 42 Str. Now assuming it gets to drag the carrier, that is something like 400 tons. A carrier weighs 60,000+ tons. This is assuming the Kraken can even grapple the carrier, which is most assuredly larger than itself (Immune to Improved Grapple.). The amount of damage the Kracken would do would not even come close to harming the ships's hull and armor. There is no way that Kracken is going to sink that ship.
Cunning Linguist 04-15-04, 09:32 AM	You don't need to drag the ship down, just tip it over. A 60HD kraken would be twice the size of a Great Wyvern and would be able to quite easy tip a carrier over. If your reasoning is that a 44 can puch past metal, you give it the ability to ignore some amount of hardness, not more damage. This ability would not effect DR, since DR is not Hardness but rather a magical ability to ignore damage. read up on Damage Reduction page 307 DMG and Hardness page 165 PHB.
Cherrn 04-15-04, 10:01 AM	There's a lot more higher lvl people in Faerun than on Earth. It's simple really. In Faerun people can live to be a 1000 years due to magic thus they can achieve a lot higher lvl than people on Earth. Earthlings at would reach a 100, maybe 110 at most. And I bet you wont see 110 year olds running around on earth's side doing all the fighting.
MoogleEmpMog 04-15-04, 10:06 AM	I don't understand why people want to use 'real' Earth logic for Earth, or why others claim that using d20 rules for Earth makes it weaker than Faerun. Maybe the d20 system's gun rules make firearms too weak. Maybe not. Either way, they're still the strongest weapons in the system! The various stealth spells in D&D aren't much better than Hide and Move Silently anyway; how many 20th-level Wizards can reliably spot a 20th-level Ranger in the wilderness? Or a 20th-level Rogue in the city? Burst fire breaks through damage reduction in d20 Modern; so does Multishot in D&D. Why? Ever notice how most energy fields in space opera can be 'brought down for a split second by a concentrated burst of fire'? Same principle. So I say again: let Faerun have its epic spellcasters, its magic items and its krakens. Earth's troops are, pound for pound, far more devastating at mid levels, don't even exist at low levels, and are equal or slightly behind at high levels.
newbDM 04-15-04, 10:42 AM	I say simply wait until the Earth Troops pull out the Cards and then switch the deck with a deck of many things... Should keep them busy for awhile... Sure the odd few will end up tougher to kill...but the chaos would be fun.
Cunning Linguist 04-15-04, 11:16 AM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog Burst fire breaks through damage reduction in d20 Modern; so does Multishot in D&D. Why? Ever notice how most energy fields in space opera can be 'brought down for a split second by a concentrated burst of fire'? Same principle. Manyshot in D&D does not go past DR, it says so in the discription Damage reduction and other resistance apply seperately against each arrow fired. Page 97 PHB. Burst Fire says nothing about it braking DR, it deals more damage, by giving +2 damage dice on a hit, but thats all. (you also take -4 on attack rolls) This must be like fifth post I have made, just to point out that people are making up rules as they go along.
Derren S. 04-15-04, 12:05 PM	When use use "common sense" Faerun would win, because when every bullet kills, so does every low level spell and every arrow. With protection from arrows and invisibility, mages have a huge advangage over troops. And can slaughter them to hundreds before they have to rethreat and that every day. When we use D&D/D20 Modern rules, Faerun also would win because their magic are much more damaging than what earth can realistically use. In both cases earth will be destroyed. A single shadow send to earth is enough to destroy a country. Send many of them and earth will last maybe a week but no longer.
MoogleEmpMog 04-15-04, 12:33 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. When we use D&D/D20 Modern rules, Faerun also would win because their magic are much more damaging than what earth can realistically use. Again, have you actually PLAYED a d20 Modern character against D&D mages, or are you just ASSUMING they're weaker by looking at their character sheets and WotC's own assumptions? Even 2d10+4 with a 10% chance to deal 4d10+8 will QUICKLY break through a protection from arrows spell; yet 80% of the mass-damage spells are 75% (at least) negated by Evasion, which is more readily available to d20 Modern-based characters. Originally posted by Derren S. In both cases earth will be destroyed. A single shadow send to earth is enough to destroy a country. Send many of them and earth will last maybe a week but no longer. And Earth, which is initiating the conflict on its terms, won't have NOTICED the Shadows lurking about Faerun? A single 1st-level Acolyte can work wonders against low-level undead, and there's no reason to assume Earth wouldn't have these at the very least. If Faerun decided to take over Earth, discovered the means of doing so and initiated the conflict, then yes, it could release incorporeal undead and expect to see most of Earth wiped out without any effective means of combatting the threat. If it goes the other way, however, it's foolish to assume that there are NO Earthlings capable of dealing with the attack when they would have noted this possibility beforehand.
Cunning Linguist 04-15-04, 12:45 PM	And Earth, which is initiating the conflict on its terms, won't have NOTICED the Shadows lurking about Faerun? A single 1st-level Acolyte can work wonders against low-level undead, and there's no reason to assume Earth wouldn't have these at the very least. Well, after all the Zombie movies I have seen, (Zombie movies work on the fact that a Zombie can create a zombie, fast and without great problems, they can also resist a whole bunch of damage) I would say earth would not stand a chance if a Greater Shadows got into a city. The main reason that Faerun is not overrun by Shadows are the abundence of magic items, and clerics to turn them away and destroy them. A 10 level cleric of Lathander from the local Temple could destroy a whole bunch of Shadow with one turning attempt, while the local Cleric of Jesus down the block does not have much power at all. (Unless he gets levels as Monk, like the cleric in Braindead)
Derren S. 04-15-04, 01:24 PM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog Again, have you actually PLAYED a d20 Modern character against D&D mages, or are you just ASSUMING they're weaker by looking at their character sheets and WotC's own assumptions? Even 2d10+4 with a 10% chance to deal 4d10+8 will QUICKLY break through a protection from arrows spell; yet 80% of the mass-damage spells are 75% (at least) negated by Evasion, which is more readily available to d20 Modern-based characters. And Earth, which is initiating the conflict on its terms, won't have NOTICED the Shadows lurking about Faerun? A single 1st-level Acolyte can work wonders against low-level undead, and there's no reason to assume Earth wouldn't have these at the very least. If Faerun decided to take over Earth, discovered the means of doing so and initiated the conflict, then yes, it could release incorporeal undead and expect to see most of Earth wiped out without any effective means of combatting the threat. If it goes the other way, however, it's foolish to assume that there are NO Earthlings capable of dealing with the attack when they would have noted this possibility beforehand. We are not talking about D20 Modern with its low level magic, Psionic and FX vs D&D. We are talking about Real Earth using D20 Modern stats for a representation. There are no spellcasting, undeath turning Acolyths on earth, so the earth in theis discussion doesn't have them. A shadow can only be harmed by magic weapons. Earth has no magic waepons. So a Shadow can freely move on earth and spawn other Shadows while Earth can do nothing Why is everyone so focused on turning a carriver over with a kraken? Kranken can cast controll weather and Winds at 20th caster level. Can a carrier survive a 200+ MPH tornado hitting it?
Valkaun_Dain 04-15-04, 03:14 PM	I haven't been able to read all of it though, there's just too much. I think there's alot of assuming going on here though, on both sides. We wouldn't mount an invasion anywhere without putting our best people on the ground first for recon. In this scenario I can see CIA "spooks" on the ground first doing their best to blend in, probably in Waterdeep or Calimport where it would be easy. This would be a drawn out operation, probably up to a year or longer if need be, that would involve kidnapping and interrogating locals and learning the lingo. In a years time I'm sure our brightest minds could begin to understand and even manipulate magic on their own. I'm sure we could kidnap a high to mid level wizard without much problem. Follow that with Special Forces: Delta Force, SEAL teams, Spetznaz, Green Berets, Shao Lin Priests (JK!), etc. We would have an excellent source of data to draw from. I would say this is where the operation would end. I think if we were presented with an opportunity to make contact with another world we would do so peacefully, at least at first. Obviously the point of this thread is Earth VS. Faerun so I will continue. I see references to Drow springing up at night to slay the invaders. Why the heck would they care? That would be a fight for another day when we started invading their world, the Underdark, to look for mineral wealth. The same goes for Dragons. Besides the Metallic ones I don't see very many dragons coming to Faerun's aid. After the joint strike fighter blew a few mounted dragons out of the sky the others would eat their masters and find a nice cave to sleep in. I see lots of things abbout undead and demons being unstoppable by Allied forces. I disagree. We have priests and chaplains too. They all come equipped with the ability to give services to soldiers of just about any denomination. That usually includes Holy Water and some training in the Bible. Just think Max Von Sydow in the Exorcist, "The Power of Christ compels you!" I don't know much about non-Christian exorcism but I'm willing to bet it exists. If Faerun's deities continue to grant their Priests prayers why would the Creator do no less? Invisibility won't do squat when a grunt eqipped with IR starts picking them off with his M-16. I don't think Protection From Normal Missiles applies here. A bullet fired from an assault rifle does not meet the criteria of "normal" for the sake of a spell. When the spell was originally researched and created I'm fairly certain the designer (I'm talking Game designer or Mythical wizard designer here) was thinking of rocks, arrows and bolts. A projectile moving a few thousand feet per second was NOT on his mind. Even the most powerful wizard will run out of spells and the ones he initially cast will wear off before a nominally equipped combat unit would run out of ammo. Back to the IR. There are a multitude of vision enhancing devices available to the military. Starlight scopes, heat sigs, even that doodad Clancy talks about in his Rainbow Six novel that can detect a heartbeat. Someone postulated that a Dracolich couldn't be "locked on" by a heat seaking missile. Why not? I'm not intimately familiar with the capabilities of a heat seeking missile but it seems that it would be easily adaptable to fire at just about any level of heat or lack of heat. I believe rotting flesh gives off heat anyway. Back to my earlier point, why would a dracolich care? There was much talk of our navies being swamped by Leviathans, Krakens and tidal waves. How is it there are any boats on Faerun's waters then? Why would these monsters care? Monster summoning? Charm Monster? You're relying too much on magic and spreading your magical forces too thin. Concentrating them would be bad too but if you took on a carrier group and crippled it you might make some headway. But with the amount of resources we have we would replace it pretty quickly. Magical disease and healing? Again, you're spreading your magic too thin, there is no way all the clerics, wizards and sorcerers could keep up. Our chemical and biological weapons would devastate Faerun and our forces would suffer light casualties as a result of our ability to protect ourselves from them. Cloud of Death? Gas mask. Other mass combat/death spells? Massive Ordinance Air Burst. We would make countries capitulate and join forces with us or do it before hostilities even began. I'm sure if Elminster saw the folly of trying to fight us he'd tuck his tail between his legs and head for Oerth. Oops I just revealed my choice of campaign settings. For the record I don't think Oerth could withstand an Earth invasion either. They could send the Rain of Colorless Fire through the portal, effectively wiping out North America and any chance of the invasion succeeding as the World can't do anything without us. Come on I'm just kidding, don't get your red robe undies and purple cod piece up in a bunch. I'm not sure what Faerun's population is but it's no where near that of 21st century Earth. What do we have 6 to 8 Billion? We're busting at the seems. If nothing else this would be conquest for finding elbow room. This would be a very popular war in overcrowded countries and recruting would be no problem. I'm sure I've repeated alot of what's already been said. I've never seen combat and I've never been in the military.
Derren S. 04-15-04, 03:46 PM	Infiltration: hard, The Spies have to learn the language first. And there are many scriers and diviner out there who scry four exactly those things. Don't belive thet they will go unnoticed whent they collect sensitiv data. Wizards: You still need many years to study magic. Earth can't do that faster especially because Faerun has a long magical tradition and earth has nothing so it will take longer than on Faerun to learn magic. Kidnappings: Do you know how hard it is to kidnap a mage? And abducting a mage with big knowledge (i.e. High Level) woun't be unnoticed. Priests: Can our priests cast spells? No. So they are not the clerics in the PHB. Why should they be able to turn undead? IR/Heartbeat sensors: They are highly unpractical in battle. Light enhancing systems still wouldn't allow you to see invisible people because they only increase the light. With IR you have many red humaniod shapes but you can't distinguish them and when weapons get fired or a wizards throws a fireball you practically go blind. Protection from arrows: This thing can stop ballista bolts and catapult stones. So why shouldn't it stop bullets? I don't see why speed should make a difference. Heat Seaking Missile: Problem with this is when they are turned to sensitive, they go straight for the sun. Which is hotter than any normal body temperature. And undeath are especially problematic because they have no body warmth. Fact is that the destruction power of epic mages equal those of several ICBMs. And they are reusable. If they counter attack earth, earth has no chance. Like it was already said many times. Our earths armies are highly dependend on supply and high level mages can easily disrupt the supply lines. That even goes so far that in an unguarded moment they can cast a permanent wall of force in front of a portal and it is blocked off. Earth can do nothing against this wall. Without supply of ammunition and fuel, for how long do you think can earths soldiers afford to shoot full auto in an attempt to breach the protection spells of wizards? magic: You have to realize that magic is everywhere in Faerun. There is nearly no place where there arent at least some spellcaster. Also you don't have to concentrate to much magic on one point to destroy earth forces. One mid level mage can take out a carrier group easily with controll weather/water.
Cunning Linguist 04-15-04, 03:57 PM	Ok, several of your points have been said before, so I'll sum them up for you. I see references to Drow springing up at night to slay the invaders. Why the heck would they care? If Earth get's to allie itself with every other nation on the planet, Faerun get's to allie itself with other parts. And it's no big problem getting a high level character down to menzoberanzan and trying to get Drow on there side. Everyone is going down in Faerun if Earth wins, the Drow would do it out of self preservation. We have priests and chaplains too Have you seen the Pope cast Bless anytime lately? Our Clerics of Jesus don't have any powers against undead, they can't turn, they can't cast spells and God does not care. In our world God is like Ao, and we don't get jack from him powervise. Invisibility won't do squat when a grunt eqipped with IR starts picking them off with his M-16. Invisibility works against IR also, 2.ed rules had IR and invisibility works against it. So it carries over in 3.ed. I don't think Protection From Normal Missiles applies here Yes it does. D20 modern has this spell, and it protects against all arrows and bullets. heat sigs Invisibility works against this Starlight scopes Why would invisiblitity not work against these? even that doodad Clancy talks about in his Rainbow Six novel that can detect a heartbeat. Thats why we have silence spells. Someone postulated that a Dracolich couldn't be "locked on" by a heat seaking missile. Why not? A heat seeking missile needs alot of heat to lock on, like the burning of a jet engine. A undead is room temp, and does not give of heat signature. Normal creatures have to low body heat for a missile to lock on to. It is not easy to adapt this, if it was, you could lock on to humans a 100 km away and hit them with a missile. Something that can't be done today. Laser guided missiles would work, but only on static targets. There was much talk of our navies being swamped by Leviathans, Krakens and tidal waves. How is it there are any boats on Faerun's waters then? There is a reason why the only real explored land on Toril is part of the same continent. There are boats on the water, but most of them stay close to the shores, and try not to sail on open water. The few who sail to and from Maztica have lots of losses, from things like Krakens and other nasty sea beasts. Why would these monsters care? Monster summoning? Charm Monster? There are several leaders of these creatures that can be bargined with. Like Slarkrethel for the Krakens, The Encephalithid for mind flayers. Phindounma the Abominable would be good for Phaerimm and Beholders allies. Magical disease and healing? Again, you're spreading your magic too thin, there is no way all the clerics, wizards and sorcerers could keep up. These are low level spells, and yes, it would drain alot of clerical power, but a few days should clean up the most crippeld city. We would make countries capitulate and join forces with us or do it before hostilities even began. Yea, that has worked several times in earth history, im sure people from another dimension would be glad to let you rape there land.. I'm not sure what Faerun's population is but it's no where near that of 21st century Earth. What do we have 6 to 8 Billion? We're busting at the seems. If nothing else this would be conquest for finding elbow room. This would be a very popular war in overcrowded countries and recruting would be no problem. I would like to point out that the chinese army has over 300 million people ready for warfare. That's one guy for each american citizen, yet, I don't see the US army fearing the mass amount of people that Chinese have. Even with a ratio of 10 to 1 it would not come down to who has the amount of people, rather who would take who down in low down sneaky warfare. I'm sure I've repeated alot of what's already been said. I've never seen combat and I've never been in the military. Thats really not a problem, none of us have seen a Red Great Wyrm or a 32 level lich in action, but we talk about him like we all have.
Valkaun_Dain 04-15-04, 05:01 PM	I like it. But I still think I'm right. But it seems both sides, maybe, are being unreasonable. If we use d20 rules we can decide the fate of Faerun and Earth, fair and square. All it will take is one gigantic room to fit a few thousand gamers, lots of card tables, beer, soda, chips and plenty of dice. We'll call it Nerdstock. It'll be glorious! Last man standing decides what gameworld WoTC has to use in perpetuity. There's something to fight for, ay? :smirk: Okay lets get organized. Any suggestions on what venue to use? Las Vegas has lots of convention centers. Lets do this before school gets out for the summer so the kids have to stay home. Trust me, children, someday you'll see what I mean. If anyone shows up in costume you'll be pummeled with a pillowcase full of Mr. Pibb. No Monty Python references either. I'll check back here for my volunteers.
MoogleEmpMog 04-15-04, 07:20 PM	Originally posted by Valkaun_Dain I like it. But I still think I'm right. But it seems both sides, maybe, are being unreasonable. If we use d20 rules we can decide the fate of Faerun and Earth, fair and square. All it will take is one gigantic room to fit a few thousand gamers, lots of card tables, beer, soda, chips and plenty of dice. We'll call it Nerdstock. It'll be glorious! Last man standing decides what gameworld WoTC has to use in perpetuity. There's something to fight for, ay? :smirk: Okay lets get organized. Any suggestions on what venue to use? Las Vegas has lots of convention centers. Lets do this before school gets out for the summer so the kids have to stay home. Trust me, children, someday you'll see what I mean. If anyone shows up in costume you'll be pummeled with a pillowcase full of Mr. Pibb. No Monty Python references either. I'll check back here for my volunteers. Heh, I'm game. The great d20 War of the Worlds! And WotC will get some mad press for d20 Modern when Earth takes Faerun apart. :D
mortellan 04-16-04, 02:22 AM	Our Clerics of Jesus don't have any powers against undead, they can't turn, they can't cast spells and God does not care. casting spells is not a prerequisite for turning ability. if you have to have this discussion by game rules, a 1st level priest of jesus, while not getting any spell power could in the least turn undead. exorcisms in recorded church history should be good enough to qualify this for a 'fantasy' debate. Wizards: You still need many years to study magic. Earth can't do that faster especially because Faerun has a long magical tradition and earth has nothing so it will take longer than on Faerun to learn magic. True. But then how does a non-arcane spellcaster get away with multiclassing in a wizard level when he goes up in level? With this logic you should HAVE TO take wizard at first level or you can forget about multiclassing in that anytime soon.
Derren S. 04-16-04, 03:25 AM	Originally posted by mortellan casting spells is not a prerequisite for turning ability. if you have to have this discussion by game rules, a 1st level priest of jesus, while not getting any spell power could in the least turn undead. exorcisms in recorded church history should be good enough to qualify this for a 'fantasy' debate. A cleric who can turn undead can also cast spells except he has to low wisdom for it. Either all priests on earth have low wisdom or they aren't clerics and can't turn undeath. True. But then how does a non-arcane spellcaster get away with multiclassing in a wizard level when he goes up in level? With this logic you should HAVE TO take wizard at first level or you can forget about multiclassing in that anytime soon. How can you explain that a wizard multiclasses as fighter and suddenly can use all weapons although he hasn't touched any weapon in his whole life? Still, earth has no wizards and so doesn't has acces to the wizard class.
mortellan 04-16-04, 04:42 AM	A cleric who can turn undead can also cast spells except he has to low wisdom for it. Either all priests on earth have low wisdom or they aren't clerics and can't turn undeath A cleric whose god doesn't or can't grant spells (possibly due to imprisonment or whatever) will have no spells, yet would still retain turning abilities. The act of turning is holding undead at bay by force of faith and is not a spell. Turning(and rebuking) is alignment based in 3.X and has little to do with what god you worship, otherwise it wouldn't be standard to every religion. How can you explain that a wizard multiclasses as fighter and suddenly can use all weapons although he hasn't touched any weapon in his whole life? Still, earth has no wizards and so doesn't has acces to the wizard class. Wizards becoming fighters is much more believable, considering Earthly bootcamps can make you a soldier in a short time compared to the aforementioned years of wizardly training required. Earth having wizards is moot anyhow, I was just lambasting the wizard training time. Hypothetically, once Earthlings came to Toril and were awash in that uber-magic atmopshere, they might unlock their hidden aptitude for magic and would be able to take wizard levels. It would only take one disaffected-pariah wizard to turn traitor to his planet and begin the schooling of Earth mages. Since Faerun is so magically populated, the chances of this happening would be more likely than say, Drow and Elves allying after centuries of hatred.
Derren S. 04-16-04, 05:07 AM	Originally posted by mortellan A cleric whose god doesn't or can't grant spells (possibly due to imprisonment or whatever) will have no spells, yet would still retain turning abilities. The act of turning is holding undead at bay by force of faith and is not a spell. Turning(and rebuking) is alignment based in 3.X and has little to do with what god you worship, otherwise it wouldn't be standard to every religion. Turning undeath is channeling the power of your god trough you. WHen a god doesn't care enough to grant spells, he also doesn't care enough to grant turning. Wizards becoming fighters is much more believable, considering Earthly bootcamps can make you a soldier in a short time compared to the aforementioned years of wizardly training required. Earth having wizards is moot anyhow, I was just lambasting the wizard training time. Hypothetically, once Earthlings came to Toril and were awash in that uber-magic atmopshere, they might unlock their hidden aptitude for magic and would be able to take wizard levels. It would only take one disaffected-pariah wizard to turn traitor to his planet and begin the schooling of Earth mages. Since Faerun is so magically populated, the chances of this happening would be more likely than say, Drow and Elves allying after centuries of hatred. Or any islam country allying with Isreal & allies. A traiterous wizard is a possibility, but will most likely assasinated before the the study in complete. And of course then there are also traiterous humans who will sell modern weapons to Faerun and train them. That is even more likely happen than a wizard betraying faerun.
mortellan 04-16-04, 05:42 AM	Or any islam country allying with Isreal & allies. A traiterous wizard is a possibility, but will most likely assasinated before the the study in complete. And of course then there are also traiterous humans who will sell modern weapons to Faerun and train them. That is even more likely happen than a wizard betraying faerun. Earth's alliances are a given in this discussion. I believe Israel and the Islamic nations weren't even factored anyhow. You are assuming a wizard would be assassinated so easily for sellign out Faerun? Well if I had the time I would quote the dozens of ways presented in this very thread, maybe even by you, as to how a wizard could avoid this happening. Earth on the other hand has a long history of selling weapons to both sides, so it would be expected. I dare say some unscrupulous mage would then enchant the bought weapons and sell them back to the Earth folk for even more cash. Doesn't take long to make arrows +1, I don't suppose bullets +1 either.
Derren S. 04-16-04, 07:31 AM	Originally posted by mortellan You are assuming a wizard would be assassinated so easily for sellign out Faerun? Well if I had the time I would quote the dozens of ways presented in this very thread, maybe even by you, as to how a wizard could avoid this happening. Yes, please quote how the wizard can protect himslef from the scry(or any other divination), teleport, timestop assasination.
Mystery Man 04-16-04, 09:37 AM	I absolutely cannot believe that this discussion is still going on........... :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG!
mortellan 04-16-04, 09:44 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. Yes, please quote how the wizard can protect himslef from the scry(or any other divination), teleport, timestop assasination. A few quotes from various pro-FR posters on this thread: Invisiblity, various protection spells, simulacrums, true ressurection -> counter attack -> losses Earth 10000 losses FR <10. Scry can't see through invisibility, you might not be seeing the -real- traitor wizard, and even then he can be brought back by his traitorous chums. Dominate/bribe the leader The traitorous wizard can keep his opponents of his case while secretly working with Earth students. they have to hope that the contingincy doesn't activateany number of cicurmstances can arise here. i'm sure El himself is protected from Time Stop in this fashion. Plus, it's been established in realms lore that magic works fine on earth. The big "El" and others have visited earth. The traitorous wizard can teach from Earth instead, where he enjoys a bonus to his Will save for being a plane away from the would-be scryers. In fact, Dimensional Lock and a permanent Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum is all thats needed. If they can't find the traitorous wizard in the first place or get into his abode by teleport, then Time Stop can't be used by a would-be assassin. and lastly from Darren S. Its rather easy to find spells when you need it. Also protection from energy is a standard spell nearly everyone has. Any spell I mentioned that is needed to protect the traitorous wizard can be found anywhere in FR.
Derren S. 04-16-04, 10:37 AM	Originally posted by mortellan A Scry can't see through invisibility, you might not be seeing the -real- traitor wizard, and even then he can be brought back by his traitorous chums. Scry can see through invisibility perfectls. You might not see the person who are you scrying but the scry sensor is there and you get the location The traitorous wizard can keep his opponents of his case while secretly working with Earth students. Good work foiling multiple divinations. There are some powerfull diviners out there any number of cicurmstances can arise here. i'm sure El himself is protected from Time Stop in this fashion. And one MDJ and all is gone. The traitorous wizard can teach from Earth instead, where he enjoys a bonus to his Will save for being a plane away from the would-be scryers. Except the scryer, knowing that he wouldn't teach earthling on faerun planeshifts to earth and scries there. In fact, Dimensional Lock and a permanent Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum is all thats needed. If they can't find the traitorous wizard in the first place or get into his abode by teleport, then Time Stop can't be used by a would-be assassin. But you can find the dimensional lock and the other spells on Earth easily. There aren't not many magical effects there. and lastly from Darren S. Any spell I mentioned that is needed to protect the traitorous wizard can be found anywhere in FR. Why does everyone call me Darren???? And what does the traitor do with this spells?
mortellan 04-16-04, 02:28 PM	Derren, my bad. Good work foiling multiple divinations. There are some powerfull diviners out there Mindblank effectively makes the traitorous wizard immune to scrying scrutiny and thought probing investigations. If colleagues have no suspicions then there is no need for the scrying in the first place. And one MDJ and all is gone Then on the traitor's turn he casts Time Stop. Wheee. A tangent, why hasn't Thay taken over Faerun yet? Scry, teleport, time stop. They have enough mages, they could do it in a week. But you can find the dimensional lock and the other spells on Earth easily. There are not many magical effects there.It would still be finding a needle in a hay stack. Unless you have an epic detect magic spell that can scope a planet in hundred mile swathes, there are other spells that could further mask this abode like Screen which gives a false illusion of what is seen thru a scry. A false destination pretty much ruins a teleport. And speaking of teleport, yall are mighty liberal in its use. Teleporting to a place 'viewed once' will work 76% of the time. I'll take those odds too I guess. Teleport is limited in range as well. And as I move up the ladder to Greater Teleport, with unlimited range, I see attempting to teleport to false destinations only brings you back to where you start which makes Screen just that more essential to the paranoid mage. And what does the traitor do with this spells? That is just to illustrate the inane proliferation of magic and the fact that any spell that can be used against Earth can also be used against Toril or taught to their enemies, that's all.
Derren S. 04-16-04, 02:41 PM	Originally posted by mortellan Derren, my bad. Mindblank effectively makes the traitorous wizard immune to scrying scrutiny and thought probing investigations. If colleagues have no suspicions then there is no need for the scrying in the first place. When earthlings begin to show magical understanding there will be inverstigation if not already much sooner. Maybe you can't trak the mage, but you certainly can track the students or the location where he teaches them. Then on the traitor's turn he casts Time Stop. Wheee. A tangent, why hasn't Thay taken over Faerun yet? Scry, teleport, time stop. They have enough mages, they could do it in a week. If the traitor can cast timestop. And when he wins the initative seeing that the MDJ will be casted in the surprise round. And what happens after Timestop? It can't be used offensivly anymore. It would still be finding a needle in a hay stack. Unless you have an epic detect magic spell that can scope a planet in hundred mile swathes, there are other spells that could further mask this abode like Screen which gives a false illusion of what is seen thru a scry. A false destination pretty much ruins a teleport. And speaking of teleport, yall are mighty liberal in its use. Teleporting to a place 'viewed once' will work 76% of the time. I'll take those odds too I guess. Teleport is limited in range as well. And as I move up the ladder to Greater Teleport, with unlimited range, I see attempting to teleport to false destinations only brings you back to where you start which makes Screen just that more essential to the paranoid mage. That is just to illustrate the inane proliferation of magic and the fact that any spell that can be used against Earth can also be used against Toril or taught to their enemies, that's all. Greater Teleport is your friend. And you can easily pinpoint the location with the use of multiple divinations and communes like "Will I find a place where Faerunian magic is thought to earthling when I search in..." So you can track down continent, country, state, etc.
mortellan 04-16-04, 03:13 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. When earthlings begin to show magical understanding there will be inverstigation if not already much sooner. Maybe you can't trak the mage, but you certainly can track the students or the location where he teaches them.[b] Ah yes the Faerunian mage police who keep an eye on each and every wizard and their prospective pupils. If the traitor can cast timestop. And when he wins the initative seeing that the MDJ will be casted in the surprise round. And what happens after Timestop? It can't be used offensivly anymore. You tell me. Time Stop was the mantra for pro-Faerun posters and their swift assassinations. Greater Teleport is your friend. And you can easily pinpoint the location with the use of multiple divinations and communes like "Will I find a place where Faerunian magic is thought to earthling when I search in..." So you can track down continent, country, state, etc. I'm sure there are other spells to foil that. Given an Earthly place, yeah that could work. A more resourceful and paranoid traitor would set up shop in a tiny demi-plane, then use the private sanctum and dimensional lock.
Derren S. 04-16-04, 03:23 PM	Originally posted by mortellan Ah yes the Faerunian mage police who keep an eye on each and every wizard and their prospective pupils. It will be noticed when the earthsoldiers suddenly begin to understand magic. And in a war where high level mages are needed it will certainly rise suspisions if a mage isn't to be found. Don't forget that there are high level caster who routinly divine for any threats. See the ruler of Haluraa for example. You tell me. Time Stop was the mantra for pro-Faerun posters and their swift assassinations. The most things you can do while timestop can easily be dispelled by a equal (or better) wizrad. A non-caster will has his problems when the wizard uses the timestop to summon 4-9 creatures. I'm sure there are other spells to foil that. Given an Earthly place, yeah that could work. A more resourceful and paranoid traitor would set up shop in a tiny demi-plane, then use the private sanctum and dimensional lock. Creating a demiplane isn't that easy. Only some clerics or high level psions can do it. I don't think any "traiterous" god grants creation spells so there is only some Psions left. And they can't teach the earthlings anything. And even a demiplane can be tracked. There has to be a way for others to come and go sou you can't lock it completly. The only thing which can foil all divinations if a wish is used and then only 50% of the times. So there will always be a way to find the traitor. You just have to be creative with your divinations.
mortellan 04-16-04, 04:08 PM	This is so off track now. Don't forget that there are high level caster who routinly divine for any threats. See the ruler of Haluraa for example. Maybe the traitor IS Haluraan and knows this and takes appropriate steps. The most things you can do while timestop can easily be dispelled by a equal (or better) wizrad. A non-caster will has his problems when the wizard uses the timestop to summon 4-9 creatures. Debatable. Just using the spell to gain superior position would be enough to warrant it's use. Creating a demiplane isn't that easy. Never said it was created by the traitor. And even a demiplane can be tracked. There has to be a way for others to come and go sou you can't lock it completly.The dimensional lock is dropped anytime the traitor wants in or out, simple enough. I'm sure this defense is standard on most high-level abodes, if not they should be dead already. Divining for a demi-plane pocket and going to Earth to divine in the context of this thread are extremely different. Finding magic on Earth may be simple, but demi-planes are inherently magical, much harder to find and will have unique aspects to themselves. If it was so easy anyone and their brother could find Ravenloft. Mindblank is resistent to wishes as well. So the traitor using that would be immune to scrying and thought reading anywhere he went.
Derren S. 04-16-04, 04:18 PM	Originally posted by mortellan Maybe the traitor IS Haluraan and knows this and takes appropriate steps. And? That the Haluraan ruler is a diviner is no secret. Beeing a haluran offers no advantage. And there are many more diviner out there. Debatable. Just using the spell to gain superior position would be enough to warrant it's use. And then the enemy mage timestopps too. Never said it was created by the traitor.[ Then, where did you get your demiplane? The dimensional lock is dropped anytime the traitor wants in or out, simple enough. I'm sure this defense is standard on most high-level abodes, if not they should be dead already. Divining for a demi-plane pocket and going to Earth to divine in the context of this thread are extremely different. Finding magic on Earth may be simple, but demi-planes are inherently magical, much harder to find and will have unique aspects to themselves. If it was so easy anyone and their brother could find Ravenloft. Mindblank is resistent to wishes as well. So the traitor using that would be immune to scrying and thought reading anywhere he went. Its easy to find the demiplane. You just have to follow the earthlings. Do you really belive someone would let a traitor take his best men to an unknown place? Someone will know where they are and how to get there. So unless the mage can some cast a permanent mind blank on anyone who know of him he can be found. And when he does is, those mind blanked earthling can be found because of the magic. Mind Blank is of no use when you search for a location.
Desies 04-16-04, 07:23 PM	between us and fr? The us has the training and technology and nuclear weapons over FR but FR has magic so?? the outcome? A TIE!!!! congratulations to all who participated!
MoogleEmpMog 04-16-04, 09:43 PM	I have to say, this would make an awesome campaign... Not the monolitich (and unrealistic) Earth vs. Faerun aspect, but the concept of contact between modern-day Earth and the Forgotten Realms. PCs could be either Earth special forces/spies/researchers sent through a handful of portals to investigate Faerun, or Harper agents investigating a new portal that ends up leading to Earth. Personally, I would prefer to play on Faerun either as an Earth team or as a Harper team persuing enemy agents (perhaps Chinese Communist), but a Faerun team investigating Earth could also be interesting... especially if there were rivals (for example, Thayan, Zhent, Harper & Waterdeep) from Faerun active on Earth as well.
Kuje31 04-16-04, 09:54 PM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog I have to say, this would make an awesome campaign... Not the monolitich (and unrealistic) Earth vs. Faerun aspect, but the concept of contact between modern-day Earth and the Forgotten Realms. PCs could be either Earth special forces/spies/researchers sent through a handful of portals to investigate Faerun, or Harper agents investigating a new portal that ends up leading to Earth. Personally, I would prefer to play on Faerun either as an Earth team or as a Harper team persuing enemy agents (perhaps Chinese Communist), but a Faerun team investigating Earth could also be interesting... especially if there were rivals (for example, Thayan, Zhent, Harper & Waterdeep) from Faerun active on Earth as well. Ed's done that with the Knights of Myth Drannor. :) He's sent them to Earth once or twice.....
Sarta 04-16-04, 10:36 PM	Think of all that oil sitting under the crust of Faerun, just going to waste. We would be mandated in the name of freedom and the American way to liberate it... er, liberate the struggling third world people of Faerun from the totalitarian regimes they suffer under. Calimshan would look great dotted with oil derricks! Just think how many Starbucks could be located in Waterdeep alone! Sarta
Galdor_Ester 04-16-04, 11:09 PM	Ok, there is a lot being forgotten about on both sides. Earth: Who says magic hasn't been used on Earth. Check the oral history of most nations. Also, what about the "new-agers"? This is a fantasy situation, why can't the Earth forces also have magic users. That aside though... Modern Tactics - Earth forces have a broad knowledge of medeval tactics but the same cannot be said of our modern tactics. Coordinated attacks between air, land, and sea are incredible deadly. Modern thinking - physics still works on Faerun and we do have scientific thinking. All of the troops are trained, highly and would be able to figure lots of things out. Like grab the magic items from the dead bodies. Alchemy - We have modern forensics and have capabilities that are "magical" in ability compared to the forces of Faerun. ...not to mention the old adage, any technology sufficiently advanced would seem to be magic to your foes... Weapons - Although magic can stop a lot of the bullets, shrapnel, etc. it doesn't stop concusive force. Most mages would be hurt seriously by being picked up and thrown (magic shield and all) several hundred feet from the explosion. Faerun: Magic - They have training, they have local knowledge and they have motive. It is the single advantage that you have. Gods/Divine - If we follow the original thread the Gods don't intevene, this has to be do to the fact that they are battling the gods from the Earth realm. That means that they are to busy to also spare power for followers. Much of the high level magic simply wouldn't be available so that leaves level 3 and lower spells. Good healers but not much more. Monsters - Monsters are very hard to coordinate but they would attack the earth forces (as well as Faerun forces). Jets flying around would **** the hell out of Dragons, Cloud Giants, etc. Summoned elementals would just be damn devistating. Both: Earth would have the advantage in the short run. Before any invasion small forces of special forces (equivalent to high level rangers) would scout out (allowed by rules of original post). They would gain much knowledge but would also miss a lot. They could show up in cities and take many items and even people for examination. Our crypto guys can figure out a lot of things. Maybe even magic writing. Computers, coordinated attacks, modern firepower would be decimate the initial Faerun response. However, in the long run the forces of Faerun would win. Magic compulsion, summoned creatures, and small force tactics (led by groups like the Harpers) would turn the tide. But not before Faerun as it exists in writing today no longer was around. Many evil organizations would take the advantage to eradicate enemies, hordes of evil creatures would randomly attack since the forces normally holding them at bay would not be around. Also, as the original poster stated, not all of Earth is united and the "evil" rulers would use the advantage of so many of the normal defending troops being gone to attack long time enemies. Supply lines would be under trouble from both sides. Radar and equipment would not be fooled by invisibility and most illusions. The radar operators would be. It is how the modern military works. However it is a sonic effect, and bards are able to counter this, even low level bards. They "smart" people of Faerun would not take long to figure that out by magical means. They do investigate things as well. Not to mention that all of the modern equipment runs on electricity. Think of the havoc a single elemental mage of the appropriate element (some of which even specialize in electricity) could do to modern gear. Finally, to end the argument about the carrier. Having been in the Navy for many years and having lived on a boat most of my life, it is not that hard to destroy a ship from below. If the ship where tilted more than 35 degrees it would capsize due to the weight of the air deck. This would kill most of the people on board, destroy the machinery and take it out of the picture. Drag it to the bottom of the sea, I don't think so, sink it so it settles to the bottom of the sea by flipping it over, totally doable. Many of the poster's are right about the limits of magic and magic users. There are damn few of them and hordes of monsterous humanoids are a constant threat that "almost" defeat many of these heavy magic countries (like cormyr - remember the king was killed and the kindom forces nearly wiped out by one dragon and hordes of kobolds, orcs, and goblins). The technology of the Earth forces would equal the force of that Dragon with their technology and long range communications. At least until the forces started underming all the technology. He brings bad things to life! GE
Lethian 04-17-04, 02:15 AM	I just read two pages of this, but I never saw any real reason why the US couldn't fly a few thousands planes into FR and carpetbomb it with nukes. Radiation + Really Big Bombs = Bad Times for FR. Seriously, the current nuclear arsenal is something like, huge. Plus we've got all that radioactive waste stored up that has to go somewhere...and this convinent portal into a place we're nuking anyway... And if no one mentioned it, Lesser Ironguard would rule for FR, though probably not help with the whole nuclear missle thing. Also, the Pantheon of FR v. The Christian God and gods of any other religion that might assist the Earth would be amusing. Ao v. God on Pay-Per-View? I'd totally pay to watch that.
Another Gnome 04-17-04, 02:56 AM	Invading a country for farming and populating it tends to be a bit pointless if it's been obliterated with nuclear bombs first. Hence, no nukes.
Derren S. 04-17-04, 04:39 AM	Earth Magic: Oral history is irrelevant. To the people today can cast spells? No. then earth has no magic. What happened 1000 years before is irrelevant. Tactics: Knowing medival tactics wouldn't help. With that many magic arround, faerun would use completly different tactics than medival earth would. Physics: On faerun things fall 300ft in 6 seconds. So much about physics. Blast: Sonic attack, protection from energy or immunity helps together with faether fall And any magic sufficiently advanced would seem to be technology to your foes... Gods: You are making things up. Not interverne means not sending an avatar down and kill all earthlings alone. They grant spells as normal up to 9th level because that is not interverning. Number of Magic users: Like I already said. Haluraa alone has neraly 200000 magic users.
Nyat 04-17-04, 03:03 PM	Well, I just finished reading through all ten pages, and I dont think earth forces would even be able to establish a foot hold. When the first scouts are sent through the portals (which are apparently in the middle of the ocean and huge, making it ahrd to believe that the inhabitants of Fearun missed them for all these years) thye would have to be on boats. The moment a mage happens to notice an odd metal boat going along the water he might think "It must be one of those crazy Lantan inventions" but then when he notices how oddly they are dressed he might decide to investigate. Once battleships and destroyers are sent through the elves of Evermeet would notice. I dont know how many Elven High Mages there are, but I'm pretty sure there are at least 10, so that is what I will go off of. Each one could alter self into an aquatic elf and, swim over to the destroyers and start disintegrateing the bottoms out of all the ships. These disintegrate spells would pack enough punch to destroy 230 cubic feet of metal at the minimum (for a level 23 caster, the minimum level an elven high mage can be). This should easily be enough to sink an aircraft carrier or a destroyer. Each High Mage could fill up all level 6 and up spell slots with disintegrate, and lets give them each an int of 25 (even though it would almost definitly be much higher), this would mean that each one could cast 18 disintegrate spells a day. Since I am going of the assumption that there are only 10 there, they would be sinking 180 aircraft carriers and destroyers a day. Even more if at least one of the High Mages was a sorcerer. Alternitivly the High Mages could get the less known Ghorus Toth's Magnetism which is also level 6, and for those of you who dont know, it is a ray that makes one metal object highly magnetic and lasts for 1 minute/level. Such a thing would destroy all computers on the ship, even though this isnt as effect, it is funny. I admit I have little knowledge of actual war technology, but I doubt radars would pick up High Mages in aquatic elf form, and even if they did they would not be able to determine if they were dolphins, sharks, or something else. I'm pretty sure that the attack would be called off when the enitire naval attack force sinks that fast. As an alternative one of these High Mages could go down to Luthcheq in Chessenta where they worship spheres of annihilation and hate all other magic and races. Then the Mage quickly levels the city (or at least the part of it with the SoA) and then just takes it back with him. Since the earth has no spellcasters to try to control the SoA with, the High Mage gets himself a ring of invis, activates it, and then pushes the SoA through the entire earth navy while they stare on helplessly. Then to deal with submarines you just need enough water elementals, I doubt they would show up on radar because they are water. And they could probably pound down the hull, or tear up the engines. If that doesnt work, Im sure the High Mages could spend some time to get rid of the submarines, using the same strategy as above. If the forces of earth somehow managed to make it to land I admit they would slaughter all ground troops that opposed them, there wouldnt be enough mages togethor to protect them all. But then they wont be able to do much more. Any airstrip or outpost that is put up can be level by a high enough level wizard or druid, at night, from a distance, invisible. Every night earth elementals attack from within the compound, cause chaos, and destroy any work done during the day. Or something like the Volcanoe spell posted earlier, a Meteor swarm, or even a few acid fog spells would eliminate all life within the construction zone. I would personally like to use Control Winds, if the Druid was even just level 12 he could create hurricane speed winds and destroy anything the earth soldiers had contructed. All this wearing down infantry moral while the navy is getting decimated (as I said above). Or when the soldiers are sleeping you could just send in a few invisible stalkers. They are made out of air and thus wouldnt give off body heat, they are invisible, and they would rip apart the sleeping soldeirs, and probably a good amount of them once they wake up. As others said, dragons could teleport into the middle of enemy positions, it really doesnt matter what kind, and then just use dragon fear. If the DC is high enough then those soldiers aren't gonna be fighting back. And to those of you who say that dragons wouldnt join the war, wrong. There is a unit of dragon riders in Evermeet, that means that there are dragons too. And if need be the dragons can cast ironguard on themselves as well. I think a large part of the war would be psychological. Undead of any type would lower moral by a ridiculous amount, face it, soldeirs from earth aren't trained to fight their best buddy who they had seen ripped apart by an invisible enemy (stalker) minutes before. Though demons would cause pretty much anyone to run screaming, I would suggest they are left out. Once the invasion begins the mages of Faerun will start to learn more about those that are attacking them, possibly seeing if they are attacking the name of their god or some such thing. Then they would stumble upon the religion of the most powerful (or at least one of the most powerful) invading army, and that it just so happens to involve angels as beings to be worshipped (though less than their actual god). If angels were gated in I'm pretty sure America would withdraw, and possibly other European nations as well. With America's high percentage of Christians public protest against the war would skyrocket if it was found that the troops were fighting angels, and many of the troops themselves would refuse to fight, and possibly surrender, I know I would. If the Earth decided to bring nuclear weapons into the equation (even though we are assuming they aren't) every single druid on the face of Toril would start to get angry. One druid with wildspell and control wheather could decimate entire cities. Who would think that the Pigeon that flew off a few minutes ago was the one who called tornadoes down onto London. Or substituting Control Wheather for call ligtning for a lower level approach. And if it was really all out war, then one wizard that knows how to make portals gets planeshifted to earth. He then begins working on building portals to the elemental plane of fire, he would carry all the materials in bags of holding, and then so as to avoid attention builds them in such places as the North American red wood forests. Thus creating the worlds worst wild fire in recorded history, especially after the fire elementals poor out and turn most of North America and a scorched waste land. I'm sure other places around the world would be just as effective, but I live on the West Coast of the U.S. so I wouldn't know. Invisible stalkers let loose on Congress, the Senate, Parliment etc. would cripple many of the Nations that would be involved. All this can pretty much be done by the elves alone, High Mages, maybe some aquatic elves to help out and summon water elementals, any of the many elven druids for other things I posted. And yes, I am a big fan of elves (and elementals). In summary, the trick to stopping an attack from earth would be to stop them establishing a foot hold, and remain unseen so as to not allow the forces of earth to defend themselves. Then using psycholigical warfare to disable as many troops as possible, and finally, striking directly at earth if other measures dont work. Remember, though earth has air superiority, they only have it when they can get planes into the air, which is difficult when all of their aircraft carriers have been sunk and all airfields are destroyed before they are finished.
mortellan 04-17-04, 05:57 PM	After 10 exhausting pages I've come to the realization that the Realms should already be in ruin before Earth shows up. With all the tactics presented here, I don't see how society could survive against just ONE very crafty, well played malicious epic mage or priest. Even with an epic caster in each major city to defend it that doesn't explain how a place like Haluraa doesn't implode on a daily basis from its 200,000 casters. If just .0005% of their casters, or 100, can use 9th level spells and higher, that would be like 100 times more likely that Halruaa or one of their neighbors would be nuked by some epic mage gone postal. That's like worse than any potential nuclear war here on Earth from what I am reading here. THen there is the oh so evil Thay. Why are their casters not totally killing every enemy of theirs by scrying, invisibly teleporting and unleashing hell there? Larloch and 60 liches? I am not familiar with this one, but again, sounds like overkill. Alot to keep the 'well adjusted' casters busy. Then with gods walking the planet, how has Toril not been utterly devastated by the proponderance of magic they bring? What I think the answer is, is the writers of novels and supplements while providing the crunch and fluff to the game for more munchkiny minds, actually have a more level head as to how things -should- be ran in the Realms.
Another Gnome 04-17-04, 06:49 PM	What I think the answer is, is the writers of novels and supplements while providing the crunch and fluff to the game for more munchkiny minds, actually have a more level head as to how things -should- be ran in the Realms. Let's just say that I really, really, hope you're right. :D
Nyat 04-17-04, 07:30 PM	Maybe the gods would work to prevent such an apocolypse. But this thread is going on the idea that all of the gods are off on vacation. Also, I forgot something on my post above. This discussion is pointless! You should all realise that all of the earths forces would be pushed back by a group of 3-6 commoners that had fate thrust upon them and became adventurers!
woodrow 04-17-04, 11:33 PM	first off i agree, there is no defense agaisnt adventures, accept the DM (and his large red dragons right NYAT), however if we are going off of that, then the people from earth undoubtly have high level people, and that changes stuff entirely, after all no one as accounted for an epic level earth spy, who hits for incrediblre amounts of damage with a pistol. and even if he deosn't exsist there are 6 billion peeps on earth i gaurntee some epic level people are there
Nyat 04-17-04, 11:35 PM	Like James Bond? Woodrow, I know this may be hard for you to understand, but James Bond isnt real, he is only a fictional character.
woodrow 04-17-04, 11:36 PM	as oppesed to all of furean? also there is still gonna be some one epic on earth
Nyat 04-17-04, 11:58 PM	So you are saying that since there are epic people in a fantasy world that earth is invading, James Bond and other action heroes will suddenly become real? I still doubt James Bond could deal with the epic mages. And even with a few epic humans, what would earth be able to do to stop the stratagies I listed above? Epic snipers: what can they do against the high mages in aquatic elf form disintegrating the bottom of boats? Jump in and try to snipe them? They may be epic, but unless they have found a way to completely change the capability of any weapon they hold it wont work. Epic Soldier: same as above, what are they gonna do? Jump in and try to knife the high mages? Epic Stratagist: with all his epic abilities and stratagies he might be able to figure out that hes screwed and would be a lot better off if he pulled out.
alexanderwales 04-18-04, 04:59 AM	*sigh* The problem we face here is one of D20 Modern and D&D vs. Real Life and Fantasy. To all of those people who say that we can't determine how much damage a fireball does because no one has ever cast one; a fireball does a set amount of damage compared to a crossbow bolt. We can fire a crossbow bolt in real life at a real person and judge how badly it hurt them. We can then fire a bullet at a real person and see how badly it hurts them, compared to the damage of a crossbow. From there, we can get some idea of how destructive a fireball would be in real life. People need to keep in mind some of the basic assumptions of this thread: --No nukes unless Earth is on the defense --Earth has found this portal, in the ocean --No Godly intervention is allowed --All of Earth is cooperating It's that last point that gets to most people. In my opinion though, the only alliance you really -need- to have on Earth is between U.S.A. and China, which between them have something like 80% of the world's military budget and armed forces. I'd like to also say that epic mages do not exist in great number, nor do mages above 10th level. According to the DMG, upon reaching tenth level you are a legendary person (assuming that your fame has had the means to spread). There aren't that many people of that high a level to instigate the sorts of things that are being suggested. Ironguard. Ironguard? As players, how many of you have actually chosen ironguard as a known spell? Precious few is my guess. While being a good solution to bullets, practically no one knows it. In Toril, I see banding together to be very unlikely, considering how divided power is. History has shown us that people tend to shy away from alliances if they aren't directly threatened. As nations are much smaller on Toril than in RL, no one will come to anyone else's aid until it's too late. I also see earth as having a large number of epic level characters. Because there isn't any magic, that means that we're restricted to fighters (armed forces), rouges (snipers, spys), rangers(special forces), monks(unavailable to armies), and barbarians (not sure where they fit in). As such, an epic rouge(sniper) would be easily able to take down an in range wizard, once spotted (think called shot + sneak attack). As for who would win, it depends on which side the PC's are on. Also, if TSR went put of business in the 70's, civilization as we know it would have already collapsed, having been ground to dust by intelligent (for the most part) gamers with no place to use their imaginations.
Derren S. 04-18-04, 05:11 AM	dp
Derren S. 04-18-04, 05:17 AM	Originally posted by alexanderwales I'd like to also say that epic mages do not exist in great number, nor do mages above 10th level. According to the DMG, upon reaching tenth level you are a legendary person (assuming that your fame has had the means to spread). There aren't that many people of that high a level to instigate the sorts of things that are being suggested. Which is completly wrong. A lvl 10 wizard is nothing legendary in Faerun its rather normal. And there are "many" epic level characters on faerun (mostly wizards) Ironguard. Ironguard? As players, how many of you have actually chosen ironguard as a known spell? Precious few is my guess. While being a good solution to bullets, practically no one knows it. Untill it is know that it is a good spell against earthlings. Then it would spread like wildfire like protection from arrows would. I also see earth as having a large number of epic level characters. Because there isn't any magic, that means that we're restricted to fighters (armed forces), rouges (snipers, spys), rangers(special forces), monks(unavailable to armies), and barbarians (not sure where they fit in). As such, an epic rouge(sniper) would be easily able to take down an in range wizard, once spotted (think called shot + sneak attack). Called shots don't exist. And why should earth have many epic people? How many legendary soldiers do we have which would be lvl 10 by your account? Where did this people get the EXP considering no high CR monster exists on earth? Earth would have no epic persons, maybe some highly trained perosons arround lvl 6 but not much more.
Another Gnome 04-18-04, 05:24 AM	To all of those people who say that we can't determine how much damage a fireball does because no one has ever cast one; a fireball does a set amount of damage compared to a crossbow bolt. We can fire a crossbow bolt in real life at a real person and judge how badly it hurt them. We can then fire a bullet at a real person and see how badly it hurts them, compared to the damage of a crossbow. From there, we can get some idea of how destructive a fireball would be in real life. That's assuming that the damage output of spells is correct in the books. A rifle bullet also does a set amount of damage compared to a crossbow bolt in the game. People who say that the set amount of damage of a rifle bullet in the game is wrong have no more a case than those who say a fireball spell can blast a 40-foot hole in 20 feet of solid steel.
mortellan 04-18-04, 05:44 AM	It would be interesting to see what crazy modern PrCs there are for the epic Earthling. those who say a fireball spell can blast a 40-foot hole in 20 feet of solid steel. anyhoo, Fireballs -are- rather hyped. Anyone with evasion can bypass its damage no matter the radius? Save for half? Fire protection spells? Flame retardant clothing to provide bonuses? Even against non-living objects, unless its changed in 3.5...energy attacks are halfed in damage before hardness is applied. So a 60hp fireball does 30 damage to a tank not counting its hardness...seems ineffectual as levels increase.
Derren S. 04-18-04, 05:47 AM	Thats why you substitue them for acid or sonic. The latter is especially effective when sinking ships from below.
mortellan 04-18-04, 05:58 AM	sonic ball, acid ball, nice. not so stereotypical like fire. that requires one metamagic feat or multiple though? and on second glance i wonder what implications if any there are to casting sonic or acid underwater. i do recall fireball produces a steam ball? i doubt the damage changes, but the dimensions might be altered some?
Derren S. 04-18-04, 06:02 AM	Only one or an archmage which are relativly plentifull in the FR. If you don't know, acid and sonic deal full damage to objects. But the, desintegrate does too. And destroying a tank is really easy. Shatter its chains and the tank is useless. Even Heat Metal can neutralize the crew of the tank and could even cause an ammunition explosion (or?, don't know exactly).
mortellan 04-18-04, 06:44 AM	And destroying a tank is really easy. Shatter its chains and the tank is useless I agree with most of the thngs you said. Shatter, I dunno though. Wouldn't you have to use that spell on a single whole object. Targeting a piece out of a greater whole on a tank isn't along the lines I think. I could be wrong, can't reference right now. Now GlassStrike...hmmm.
Nyat 04-18-04, 11:47 AM	Glasstrike would be rather useful... On to the subject of epic earthlings. I think that if epic earthlings existed the War in Iraq would have been over awhile ago. The U.S. probably has the highest likely hood IMHO because of how much we focus on our military. If we had an epic soldier, sniper, stratagist, whatever, any battle that occured with the epic whatever involved (all the big ones) would end in less than a minute. Notice how we are still struggling and practicly an entire city is rebelling, if we had an epic whatever on our side that city would already be free of opposition.
Drizzt Do'Duff 04-18-04, 12:20 PM	You guys come up with some pretty mesmerizing spells, but don't forget Earth has some of its own. I mean, come on, who wouldn't sacrifice themself in exchange for a TV? Just hand them out to the Chosen, some bored to death Liches, and such, and they'll all switch their allegiance. What dwarf doesn't love soap operas? Oh, and need I forget the majesty of Chocolate? Now that there, is magic, and I know for a fact that a horde of orcs would slaughter themselves in competition for it. Forget military might, we've got luxury!!
Nyat 04-18-04, 12:36 PM	You forgot something, they don't have cable or satelite in the realms! So I'm afraid that wouldn't work, the chocolate on the other hand...:drool:
Cunning Linguist 04-18-04, 12:39 PM	There is already chocolate in the realms.. it came with the first shipment from Maztica
Nyat 04-18-04, 12:49 PM	But was it *insert incredibly expensive and delicious chocolate brand here*? I think not!
Drizzt Do'Duff 04-18-04, 12:51 PM	Rats, shot down twice. :sad: But hey, there are DVDs/VHS's...and white chocolate...and they can't have milky ways... *scratches head nervously* Pizza, chicken soup, good music, tickets to a caribbean cruise?
Mirtek 04-18-04, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by mortellan After 10 exhausting pages I've come to the realization that the Realms should already be in ruin before Earth shows up. With all the tactics presented here, I don't see how society could survive against just ONE very crafty, well played malicious epic mage or priest. Answer: They couldn't. FR/D&D do not work. It's all artificial kept alive by ignoring the most obvious problems. If all would truly happen according to the rules everything would collapse. The economy doesn't work and this doesn't even matter since anything would be blasted to dust anyway.Originally posted by alexanderwales [BTo all of those people who say that we can't determine how much damage a fireball does because no one has ever cast one; a fireball does a set amount of damage compared to a crossbow bolt. We can fire a crossbow bolt in real life at a real person and judge how badly it hurt them. We can then fire a bullet at a real person and see how badly it hurts them, compared to the damage of a crossbow. From there, we can get some idea of how destructive a fireball would be in real life.[/qb] Wouldn't work, because it would not answer the most importat question: Which do we have to use to compare the damage? Just assume that the fireball does the same damage than the crossbow bolt which in turn does the same damage than the bullet. Now your test shows that the bullet does twice as much damage as the crossbow bolt. But how do we now have to change the fireball? Either we make the fireball only half as strong, since it's as strong as the crossbow bolt, or we make the fireball twice as strong, since it's as strong as the bullet. As long as we can't produce magical or supernatural fire, we can't determine how much damage it can do.
Archangel 04-19-04, 06:01 AM	Hey guys you forgot Icecream and all of the sex industry we have on Earth! Also running water, bathrooms, air refresheners etc.!
Kuje31 04-19-04, 12:27 PM	Originally posted by Archangel Hey guys you forgot Icecream and all of the sex industry we have on Earth! Also running water, bathrooms, air refresheners etc.! You mean to tell me that FR doesn't have sex.... :) Come on, there is Lliira, Sune, Sharess, Hanali, etc, as well as hardly no restrictions and they don't have 2,000 years of guilt drilled into them that sex = bad that we here on earth have. :) I mean look at half the replies people post about Ed when he even mentions what the Seven do or what El does......
alexanderwales 04-19-04, 10:01 PM	Wouldn't work, because it would not answer the most importat question: Which do we have to use to compare the damage? Just assume that the fireball does the same damage than the crossbow bolt which in turn does the same damage than the bullet. Now your test shows that the bullet does twice as much damage as the crossbow bolt. But how do we now have to change the fireball? Either we make the fireball only half as strong, since it's as strong as the crossbow bolt, or we make the fireball twice as strong, since it's as strong as the bullet. As long as we can't produce magical or supernatural fire, we can't determine how much damage it can do. Oh. Nevermind then. Concerning epic level earthmen: Why wouldn't we? Just because there aren't any high level monsters to fight doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of opportunities for reaching epic level. The U. S. fights wars all the time for plenty of reasons, giving our troops a good chance to level up. The CR of a first level terrorist should be 1. An equally green solider (lvl 1) should either kill, knockout, or force surrender thirteen or so terrorists before he levels up (assuming that he gets full experience while wielding weapons above what he should be able to afford). The reason that we never hear about our legendary fighters is that 1) real heros are often ecllipsed by movies and books 2) the military is cautious about disclosing information 3) you're right, it's impossible to determine fame based on level A question: would a sniper qualify for a CDG, as their target would not be able to dodge a bullet going faster than the speed of sound, and thus be "helpless"?
Monsoon28 04-20-04, 06:17 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 You mean to tell me that FR doesn't have sex.... :) Come on, there is Lliira, Sune, Sharess, Hanali, etc, as well as hardly no restrictions and they don't have 2,000 years of guilt drilled into them that sex = bad that we here on earth have. :) I mean look at half the replies people post about Ed when he even mentions what the Seven do or what El does...... Ahh but we have a strong industry of cosmetics, cosmetic surgery, health awareness (we actually shower more than once a month!) Just give El a life time subscription to Playboy and Hustler, that should keep him occupied! Give Thay the opportunity to set up a couple of Porn companies in Hungary and the Czech Republic and as they watch the money come in they'll forever turn their backs on the rest of Faerun! As for Sex=Bad not so true anymore at least outside of the U.S. and the Vatican City. (If we're talking western culture.) Hmmm now we just have to set up a Baskin Robbins in Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate! They'll love us forever!
Archangel 04-20-04, 06:47 AM	I don't know about US but here in Europe Sex in not tabu! And looking at the whole of the world we are much more advanced in it then Faerun is!
Kuje31 04-20-04, 10:54 AM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Ahh but we have a strong industry of cosmetics, cosmetic surgery, health awareness (we actually shower more than once a month!) Just give El a life time subscription to Playboy and Hustler, that should keep him occupied! They have cosmetics, magic can take place of surgery (there is a race that can change hair, skin, body parts, etc, without scars or any permenant effects shown on the body), some places in FR also have working showers or if they don't they at least know to bathe more then once a month. There are chapbooks in FR as well and some of them probably show off peoples bodies. Volo comes to mind and he would be the perfect one to start or print such chapbooks.
mortellan 04-20-04, 02:44 PM	Finally! The arguement has devolved into a harmless cultural war. I declare this thread over in my eyes.
Kuje31 04-20-04, 03:11 PM	Originally posted by mortellan Finally! The arguement has devolved into a harmless cultural war. I declare this thread over in my eyes. I thought this thread was over as soon as it started. :)
Monsoon28 04-21-04, 06:02 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 I thought this thread was over as soon as it started. :) I'll second that! ;) As to the cultural debate Kuje31, yes they have cometics but they are not going to be any more advanced than cosmetics from 4-6 hundred years ago. Spells used in such a manner are uncommon or temporary, but otherwise will be expensive just like here. Dopplegangers and such are still fairly rare races. Bathing is still something done only once in a while, that's what perfume was invented for, to cover over the stink of the body's BO. Why would they "know" to bath more often?? They have no knowledge of germs as such. Try not to confuse this with romantic images of yester-year, MOST people will stink, will not shave under their arms or have Brazilian Bikini waxes done on themselves. "chap" magazines, ohh really so colour cameras extist in Faerun now?! Gnomes MAY have developed some sort of Flash-bulb B&W camera with photo plates like we had in the 1800's but just like those they will be grainy and air-brushing won't exsit. While the printing press does exsist in Faerun it is still a relatively new and not widely used piece of tech. Engarde! Parry, Riposte!
Cunning Linguist 04-21-04, 07:45 AM	"chap" magazines, ohh really so colour cameras extist in Faerun now?! In places like Shade and Halruaa I can see them having magical cameras.
Mystery Man 04-21-04, 08:47 AM	This thread now wins the award for longest pointless existence of a discussion topic ever. Congratulations!:king: :ayyyy!: :thumbsup: :bow: :bounce:
Cunning Linguist 04-21-04, 09:33 AM	I beg to differ, the Orcus Rules tread is much longer, and maybe as pointless.
Mystery Man 04-21-04, 09:45 AM	touche' :)
Archangel 04-21-04, 09:47 AM	This thread now wins the award for longest pointless existence of a discussion topic ever. Congratulations! Thank you! I beg to differ, the Orcus Rules tread is much longer, and maybe as pointless. How much longer? People come back, this thread will rule them all:) !
Rick Day 04-21-04, 10:05 AM	As to the bathing statement. The Celtic peoples of our own past bathed wery often. It was bad to be smelly and dirty to them. Not to read into Mr greenwoods mind but the Illuskins are very close in attitudes to the ancient Celts. So not everyone is a smelly barbarian. And historicly the barbarians usualy are cleaner than the civilised. As well the elves and halflings you can bet are clene freaks. :)
newbDM 04-21-04, 10:07 AM	If Nertheril (Spelling?) Had indoor water and bathing stuff and that was thousands of years ago... what makes yout hink people just stopped bathing.
Alac Luin 04-21-04, 11:34 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 There are chapbooks in FR as well and some of them probably show off peoples bodies. Volo comes to mind and he would be the perfect one to start or print such chapbooks. This years "Volo's Vixin's" Miss March's turn ons: Bards, long walks in the High Forrest. Turn offs: Zents, old mages that act like adolesents.
Kuje31 04-21-04, 12:42 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 I'll second that! ;) As to the cultural debate Kuje31, yes they have cometics but they are not going to be any more advanced than cosmetics from 4-6 hundred years ago. Spells used in such a manner are uncommon or temporary, but otherwise will be expensive just like here. Bathing is still something done only once in a while, that's what perfume was invented for, to cover over the stink of the body's BO. Why would they "know" to bath more often?? They have no knowledge of germs as such. Try not to confuse this with romantic images of yester-year, MOST people will stink, will not shave under their arms or have Brazilian Bikini waxes done on themselves. "chap" magazines, ohh really so colour cameras extist in Faerun now?! Gnomes MAY have developed some sort of Flash-bulb B&W camera with photo plates like we had in the 1800's but just like those they will be grainy and air-brushing won't exsit. While the printing press does exsist in Faerun it is still a relatively new and not widely used piece of tech. Engarde! Parry, Riposte! Like our surgery's of earth are any cheaper? Come now. :) And yes according to Ed, they do know all about germs, diseases and how to take care of thier bodies. Most people, especially adventurers, know how the body works, where all the organs go, what they do, all about germs and diseases (since there is a goddess of Disease and Germs!), etc. Bathing also takes place more then just once a month, but you are right they do use oils and perfumes to hide it. It varies from nation to nation on how clean they are. I never said they had camaras, but they do have painters, drawer's, etc. Some of them might even make magical pictures.
Kuje31 04-21-04, 12:43 PM	Originally posted by Alac Luin This years "Volo's Vixin's" Miss March's turn ons: Bards, long walks in the High Forrest. Turn offs: Zents, old mages that act like adolesents. :angel: :D
Monsoon28 04-21-04, 01:26 PM	Originally posted by Rick Day As to the bathing statement. The Celtic peoples of our own past bathed wery often. It was bad to be smelly and dirty to them. Not to read into Mr greenwoods mind but the Illuskins are very close in attitudes to the ancient Celts. So not everyone is a smelly barbarian. And historicly the barbarians usualy are cleaner than the civilised. As well the elves and halflings you can bet are clene freaks. :) I'll definitely concede that Celtics were an exception in europe! As for elf and halflings I was really only referring to humans in my discussion as we tend to lack such races here ;) Like our surgery's of earth are any cheaper? Come now. I think you missed my reference to it being extensive here as well...but that's ok :D And yes according to Ed, they do know all about germs, diseases and how to take care of thier bodies. Most people, especially adventurers, know how the body works, where all the organs go, what they do, all about germs and diseases (since there is a goddess of Disease and Germs!), etc. This would be the problem with Fantasy there is no reason for them to understand microbiology, where do they keep the electon microscopes? Bathing also takes place more then just once a month, but you are right they do use oils and perfumes to hide it. It varies from nation to nation on how clean they are. But the general human is a filthy beast in most places just like the roman or french or english were... and I'd like to see you bathe more than once a month in Cormyr/Sword Coast/Dragon Coast during the winter months! Not too many people are going to go through the trouble of hauling water from the locale well to their homes. I never said they had camaras, but they do have painters, drawer's, etc. Some of them might even make magical pictures. Ahh that's the difference isn't it? Would you prefer a painting or a high-resolution picture in your 'chaps' magazine? ;) If Nertheril (Spelling?) Had indoor water and bathing stuff and that was thousands of years ago... what makes yout hink people just stopped bathing. Same as why so much of Netheril's society isn't repeated it is a lost civilization. Beside even back then I find it unlike that farmers or villagers were bathing often.
Cunning Linguist 04-21-04, 01:33 PM	This would be the problem with Fantasy there is no reason for them to understand microbiology, where do they keep the electon microscopes? Germs, or small creatures that make you sick are talked about in the Koran, and that thing was written ca year 700AD.
Alac Luin 04-21-04, 01:47 PM	Maybe its just me, but what does bathing and um, gentelmen's magazines have to do with who would win a milatery endeavor?
Mystery Man 04-21-04, 01:51 PM	Originally posted by Alac Luin Maybe its just me, but what does bathing and um, gentelmen's magazines have to do with who would win a milatery endeavor? Well, easily. A clean soldier who's ...positively reinforced with images of strong, young, virile males...is a...happy soldier? And there you go. *shrug* You asked.
Kuje31 04-21-04, 01:55 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 This would be the problem with Fantasy there is no reason for them to understand microbiology, where do they keep the electon microscopes? Not too many people are going to go through the trouble of hauling water from the locale well to their homes. Ahh that's the difference isn't it? Would you prefer a painting or a high-resolution picture in your 'chaps' magazine? ;) No it's not a problem because it is fantasy. Germs were known on earth long before electon microsopes were created. Magic, or knowledge, or people who take apart bodies, etc, would know about germs. Funny most people here in the New England bath in the winter and they did before running water was run through america and even in a lot of the more country places they don't have running water. :) I don't care either way, paintings are just as good as pictures if the artist is any good.
Kuje31 04-21-04, 01:58 PM	Originally posted by Alac Luin Maybe its just me, but what does bathing and um, gentelmen's magazines have to do with who would win a milatery endeavor? Maybe because some of us got tired of Faerun wins, no Earth wins, no Faerun wins, no Earth wins. Repeat, recycle, reuse. :) So we decided to change the topic.
Monsoon28 04-21-04, 03:39 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Maybe because some of us got tired of Faerun wins, no Earth wins, no Faerun wins, no Earth wins. Repeat, recycle, reuse. :) So we decided to change the topic. Once again I concur with you ;) Well, easily. A clean soldier who's ...positively reinforced with images of strong, young, virile males...is a...happy soldier? I guess this would fall under the american armies don't ask, don't tell policy ;) Funny most people here in the New England bath in the winter and they did before running water was run through america and even in a lot of the more country places they don't have running water. Bathing in New England now, versus 150-300 years ago is noticably different (think Gangs of New York) and faerun isn't even at a level equal to that, not taking magic into account. While well-to-do Merchants and Nobles may cleanse on a weekly or bi-weekly, peasants which would make up the majority of the population (what with the lack of a middle-class). Germs, or small creatures that make you sick are talked about in the Koran, and that thing was written ca year 700AD. Unfortunately it wasn't until the early 1800's when Louis Pasteur came up with "germ theory of disease" while this wasn't the discovery of germs, it was the discovery of germs being the cause of disease, and therefore a reason for using soap to wash oneself and to bath on a regular basis other than to get the stink out. :D And of coarse to sterilize equipment before a operation. Btw where is the germ reference in the koran? I'd love to read it, unfortunately i've only a few chapters of the book before I need to put it down.
Cunning Linguist 04-21-04, 03:57 PM	Btw where is the germ reference in the koran? I'd love to read it, unfortunately i've only a few chapters of the book before I need to put it down. I learned that when I talked to a muslim evangelist type. He talked about how the Koran talks about sickness, and how it comes from the dirt in the ground, and the smell in the air. That is why they wash there feet and hands before prayer, so not to offend God with our sickness. (I might have got that wrong btw, I meet this guy over 5 years ago)
Kuje31 04-21-04, 04:09 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Bathing in New England now, versus 150-300 years ago is noticably different (think Gangs of New York) and faerun isn't even at a level equal to that, not taking magic into account. While well-to-do Merchants and Nobles may cleanse on a weekly or bi-weekly, peasants which would make up the majority of the population (what with the lack of a middle-class). Your right Faerun IS different. So yes bathing does happen in FR because it's NOT EARTH. The people in FR do know about diseases, germs, bodies of humanoids, how they work, etc. Because it's NOT EARTH.
Monsoon28 04-21-04, 06:51 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist I learned that when I talked to a muslim evangelist type. He talked about how the Koran talks about sickness, and how it comes from the dirt in the ground, and the smell in the air. That is why they wash there feet and hands before prayer, so not to offend God with our sickness. (I might have got that wrong btw, I meet this guy over 5 years ago) Still interesting to see what it says...try and force myself to sit and read it again sometime in the future..
Monsoon28 04-21-04, 07:03 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Your right Faerun IS different. So yes bathing does happen in FR because it's NOT EARTH. The people in FR do know about diseases, germs, bodies of humanoids, how they work, etc. Because it's NOT EARTH. Ouch so thick with sarcasm! :mymy: :P Have you read the Threat by the Sea Trilogy? There is a least one reference to the main character being different in that he liked to wash up on a regular basis, and after he was unable to wash for a week or two how he felt so dirty. Btw...how often do you or your follow gamers buy soap, or in game mention taking time out to bathe? I know I've had characters and follow PC's that have gone weeks even months without mentioning it! Just a thought
Kuje31 04-21-04, 07:21 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Ouch so thick with sarcasm! :mymy: :P Have you read the Threat by the Sea Trilogy? There is a least one reference to the main character being different in that he liked to wash up on a regular basis, and after he was unable to wash for a week or two how he felt so dirty. Btw...how often do you or your follow gamers buy soap, or in game mention taking time out to bathe? I know I've had characters and follow PC's that have gone weeks even months without mentioning it! Just a thought Every PC ive played has soap and at least more then 3/4 PC's ive DM'd for does as well. Every dungeon, ruin, villa, home, castle, etc has a place to wash in my games.
WizO_BigSister 04-21-04, 09:56 PM	Lets add a little more into the mix :) I think the average Con score of Earth non-third world humans is going to be lower than the average Con of Faerun humans. Although the Earth types will tend to have better nutrition they il lin fact have LOWER resistance to disease. This is based on the following. 1/. We no longer expose our kids to low grade levels of a wide range of bacteria and viruses - our over use of antibiotics, our obsession with using antiseptics in the home and our much higher standards of food hygiene mean our children don't develop the broad spectrum of immunity they used to. 2/. We no longer have the "friendly" bacteria that protect us from being invaded by less friendly bugs. Dietary changes, antibacterial soaps and deoderants along with other cosmetics, removal of body hair ... all these things mean many of the niches that used to be taken by relatively harmless bacteria and viruses are now available to be "invaded" by the nasties. 3/. Our less healthy children don't die (and of course this is a good thing)! It is not necessary to know about microbiological organisms to recognise the links between being clean, having an effective means of dealing with sewage and having better health. Poor personal hygiene was NOT a feature of earlier civilisations until the Christian church developed the bizarre idea that keeping your body clean was ungodly i.e. you were supposed to mortify the flesh, not pamper it by washing yourself and your clothes. Outside of this tradition most people kept themselves clean ... in fact many cultures thought medieval and rennaissance Europeans were disgusting!
Duke Lenethar 04-22-04, 01:37 AM	Okay, you are under the assumption that modern man would find an interdimensional portal, travel through it, and instead of marvelling at the beauty of this place that existed beyond our imagining, we send through an army to destroy everything! Since it sounds like the Earth forces are completely amoral, then: nuclear weapons. Period. It's the simplest argument but it works. If we are evil enough to go through a portal (whose existence the world would likely deny, it's ust too hard to explain), then we will vaporize Waterdeep, Athkatla, Skuld, Calimport, and Eltabbar. An ICBM (or 20, since the US and Russia have about 20,000 combined. Just considering the power of the explosions, I'd say about 90% of the Faerunian population would be dead. Not every person in Faerun is a level 18 wizard. Then we have to consider fallout, poisoning the survivors that are left. Even the most powerful individuals in Faerun would have to realize that the world was destroyed around them, and they could do nothing to prevent the destruction of millions of people. Evil ones would realize that there was no world left to rule. Epic spells may be powerful, but we have enough atomic firepower to immolate every square inch of inhabitable land on this planet and Toril. The gods would shrivel and die in a matter of minutes. And, I don't care how powerful the city of shade is; the core of a hydrogen bomb explosion is 1.2 billion degrees for a fraction of a second, but that would be enough to make the air for miles aorund the city unbreathable. Faerun could not stand against the firepower of a modern military. Magic can not solve all of their problems because with the turn of a key, there could be a thirty-mile hole with nothing left alive. It would likely never get to a troop-based war. And a word on dragons because I loathe them so much: a dragon is easily the size of a jet fighter. That should make them easy prey for a Patriot missile or a Phalanx close-in gun (since they would try to take out our navies, and a diet of fantasy novels would suggest to our sailors that DRAGONS BREATHE FIRE. Besides, if I found a portal to Faerun, I would either do my best to hide it or stand against whoever tried to enter it. Perhaps send word to the Faerunians to throw a portal crusher through to keep this world from affecting that one.
Duke Lenethar 04-22-04, 01:53 AM	I was just thinking of the ultimate Vs. battle: FR vs. Warhammer 40,000. Supertechnology, magic, and a complete disregard for the sanctity of life, from even the most decent of humans. Just an idea though. If anybody ants to start a branch argument, I think it'd be fun. However, these arguments really are inane, and I kinda regret posting. But, I can think of the best way that the Earth forces would win: Throw the FR campaign book into the fireplace!
Archangel 04-22-04, 03:17 AM	Since it sounds like the Earth forces are completely amoral, then: nuclear weapons. Period. It's the simplest argument but it works. If we are evil enough to go through a portal (whose existence the world would likely deny, it's ust too hard to explain), then we will vaporize Waterdeep, Athkatla, Skuld, Calimport, and Eltabbar. Maybe if you read more that one page of this thread you would understand that Earth is here to conquer and not to destroy!
Monsoon28 04-22-04, 05:59 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Most people, especially adventurers, know how the body works, where all the organs go, what they do, all about germs and diseases (since there is a goddess of Disease and Germs!) Hey Kuje31, Were you referring to Talona? I know her portfolio covers disease and poison but I don't recall germs as part of it. Unfortunately I don't have access to my 3E stuff at the moment and my PDF of Faith and Avatars only lists the two mentioned. Thanks! Every PC ive played has soap and at least more then 3/4 PC's ive DM'd for does as well. Every dungeon, ruin, villa, home, castle, etc has a place to wash in my games. But wouldn't that be more of a home brew thing? I've had character's that cared about good hygiene, but for the most part it would depend on the character's background and personality. I certainly wouldn't have a common thief character who has lived in the back ally's of Westgate worrying about soap! You even have dungeons with places to wash? Why? And I think the average home owner in faerun cannot afford a bath tub so were looking at simply dumping water over one's head or going down to the local river and bathing there. When they actually bathe that is. @Big Sista good points, but we consume large quantities of chemicals and perservatives that aren't that healthy for the body (Colas, Fast Food, perserved foods that'll last until the end of time), and we are exposed to bacteria more often then we may think we are. But it is still less then what people in lets say Cambodia or Somalia are exposed too. Not to sure if i'd say our constitution would be weaker. :shrugs:
Mirtek 04-22-04, 07:00 AM	Originally posted by Duke Lenethar Faerun could not stand against the firepower of a modern military. Magic can not solve all of their problems because with the turn of a key, there could be a thirty-mile hole with nothing left alive. On the material plane only. That wouldn't stop the archmages from nuking us from the planes.Originally posted by Duke Lenethar The gods would shrivel and die in a matter of minutes. No, starving from lack of worshipps takes centuries and even milleniums.Originally posted by Duke Lenethar (since they would try to take out our navies, and a diet of fantasy novels would suggest to our sailors that DRAGONS BREATHE FIRE. So we would prepare savage beasts breathing fire, only to be crushed by brilliant beings with genius intellects and magical abilities beyond our wildes nightmares. Which dragons needs to challenge a jet in the air? The can greater teleport or make themselves simply incorperalOriginally posted by Duke Lenethar It would likely never get to a troop-based war. Yes. We would nuke Faeruns troops and then in turn be nukes by faeruns spellcasters.
Archangel 04-22-04, 09:43 AM	Dragons make themselves incorporeal and they cannot do anything. By Greater Teleporting they do get surprize but for how long? And NO NUKES!
Mirtek 04-22-04, 11:26 AM	Originally posted by Archangel Dragons make themselves incorporeal and they cannot do anything. Except for moving through all defenses and then becoming corporeal again. Or simply attacking from their incorporeal form with force spells Originally posted by Archangel By Greater Teleporting they do get surprize but for how long? Long enough to slay an entire camp of earth soldiers and even the few surviving the initial attack won't be able to do anything due to Dragon Fear Aura.
Alac Luin 04-22-04, 12:29 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Maybe because some of us got tired of Faerun wins, no Earth wins, no Faerun wins, no Earth wins. Repeat, recycle, reuse. :) So we decided to change the topic. I'll buy that, lets carry on then:D Durring my time in the Army we played out in the woods once in awhile, and would go weeks without bathing. As a matter of fact, if you managed to bath with soap and water, you tended to get swarmed by more bugs, go figure (it is the fragrence in modern soap that attracted them). I think the longest I went was a month and and a half durring the first Gulf War without and actual "Bathing", showers were far and few between and splashing water on the armpits only counts for so much. I'm not sure why I mentioned this, but it seams relevent to this side treck and the total reason of the thread, at least to me. :D
Kuje31 04-22-04, 12:34 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Hey Kuje31, Were you referring to Talona? I know her portfolio covers disease and poison but I don't recall germs as part of it. Unfortunately I don't have access to my 3E stuff at the moment and my PDF of Faith and Avatars only lists the two mentioned. Thanks! But wouldn't that be more of a home brew thing? I've had character's that cared about good hygiene, but for the most part it would depend on the character's background and personality. I certainly wouldn't have a common thief character who has lived in the back ally's of Westgate worrying about soap! You even have dungeons with places to wash? Why? And I think the average home owner in faerun cannot afford a bath tub so were looking at simply dumping water over one's head or going down to the local river and bathing there. When they actually bathe that is. Well a lot of diseases come from germs yes? It's the same as Sune for example, she doesn't have "sex" as a portfolio but some times love and sex go hand in hand. :) Um how is soap a house rule since it's in the PHB and it always has been at least since 2e..... It doesn't cost much for a pound of soap and even commoners could afford it. :) Besides there are more uses for soap then just washing yourself. Why not have places to wash in dungeons? There has to be places where living creatures bathe, or even use the facilities. If every dungeon never had these things it would break my suspension of belief. It doesn't have to be a lavish chamber or what not, but there should be at least a room where the residents use the facilities or bathe. When I use the term dungeons that includes castles, keeps, villas, manors, ruined towers, underground complexs, etc.
Monsoon28 04-22-04, 06:28 PM	@Kuje The reference to home brew was aimed at that every home, dungeon and what not had a "Bathing" area. Not about soap which is a great tool for copying keys! ;) And dungeons 'were' meant as a place to keep/torture prisoners, storage unused furniture and such, not a cozy little place to keep your billiards table. :) So what are you trying to say about Talona? That a god is aware of germs should be a given, but as in my reference to Pasteur, germs were not thought to be connected to disease back in the day. So if Talona is bringing this piece of scientific knowledge to the heathens that's fine, but I'm not going to assume they 'just' know about it. Oh yes, I think Sharess might be more suited for 'sex' ;) err as part of her portfolio that is! :D @Alac, Yes I too enjoy this part of the thread much more. :D Ahhh an army boy, I only went so far as Air Cadets myself but going of to camp, waking up at 6am to do 50 push-ups and have a 3min shower (if we even got a shower) REALLY sucked. Much more prefer my half-hour showers!!
Kuje31 04-22-04, 07:40 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 @Kuje The reference to home brew was aimed at that every home, dungeon and what not had a "Bathing" area. Not about soap which is a great tool for copying keys! ;) And dungeons 'were' meant as a place to keep/torture prisoners, storage unused furniture and such, not a cozy little place to keep your billiards table. :) So what are you trying to say about Talona? That a god is aware of germs should be a given, but as in my reference to Pasteur, germs were not thought to be connected to disease back in the day. So if Talona is bringing this piece of scientific knowledge to the heathens that's fine, but I'm not going to assume they 'just' know about it. Actually the term dungeon for D&D includes any castle, keep, city, underground complex, temple, etc, that is ruined, left to rot, etc. Again so the germs were not thought of to be connected to disease on Earth. Fine, we got that but FR is not Earth, which is what I said once before. So people in FR do know about diseases and how to treat them and they also know of germs and how to treat them as well. Ed has even said it right out, people in FR know how the bodies of humanoids work, what the organs do, what blood does, how to treat wounds, diseases, and germs. Because again a lot of diseases come from germs yes? The house rule thing isn't really a house rule, its logical dungeon design. You don't just plop creatures down in a dungeon and not give them a place to use the facilities or bathe.
Monsoon28 04-23-04, 04:32 AM	The house rule thing isn't really a house rule, its logical dungeon design. You don't just plop creatures down in a dungeon and not give them a place to use the facilities or bathe. If you need to 'use' the facilities that's what a chamber pot is for.And to say EVERY single home or residence has a 'Bath Room', to me, it sounds like a home brew. Most people will still bathe using water from a Well/Barrel/Stream, not have a room for this purpose. It would be helpful if I could read about Ed Greenwood writing about germs specifically, would you have a link? Or could you point me to an article? Thanks. Knowledge that germs and diseases are linked, is something we take for granted, but for a society like Faerun that isn't strong on scientists I find it hard to believe. If microscopes do exsist they are probably a gnome's 'toy' and since a simple spyglass will cost 1000gp I would hate to see the cost for a microscope. Wizards and Alchemists are the closest things to a scientist faerun has and I don't see them spending their time on micro-biology all that much if at all. To say that bob the farmer or jaymes the baker are knowledgable on germs or other micro-organisms is far-fetched to me.
Kuje31 04-23-04, 01:39 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 If you need to 'use' the facilities that's what a chamber pot is for.And to say EVERY single home or residence has a 'Bath Room', to me, it sounds like a home brew. Most people will still bathe using water from a Well/Barrel/Stream, not have a room for this purpose. It would be helpful if I could read about Ed Greenwood writing about germs specifically, would you have a link? Or could you point me to an article? Thanks. Knowledge that germs and diseases are linked, is something we take for granted, but for a society like Faerun that isn't strong on scientists I find it hard to believe. If microscopes do exsist they are probably a gnome's 'toy' and since a simple spyglass will cost 1000gp I would hate to see the cost for a microscope. Wizards and Alchemists are the closest things to a scientist faerun has and I don't see them spending their time on micro-biology all that much if at all. To say that bob the farmer or jaymes the baker are knowledgable on germs or other micro-organisms is far-fetched to me. [/B] "Bookwyrm, I see medical knowledge as varying widely across the Realms, but being highest among demi-humans, because tending humans has been one longterm way of being accepted in human-dominated communities. Herb lore is predominant, coupled with “potions” (herbal concoctions, not magic) effective in dealing with minor diseases, allergic reactions, and shock. The organs of all humanoid races are known, plus the general functioning of the body (hence what shock is, and how to treat it), how blood ‘works,’ and the importance of cleanliness for wounds (though most folks in the Realms have what we modern real-world types would consider bad personal hygiene and BAD teeth, though persons desiring to make a good impression who can’t get a chance to bathe properly will work scented oils into their hair and rub scented oils on their bodies to change their strong odour into something less unpleasant). In the Realms, almost everyone understands that ill or wounded people need rest, to be covered by a blanket or at least kept out of full sun, that moving or rough handling will do greater harm, and that people should be given much to drink (even in cases where we moderns would say, “No, not even if complaining of thirst should Thrudd be given water or something stronger, because he’s hurt inside!”). Stretchers and slings are commonly used, and where a stretcher can’t be found, injured who must be carried are usually lashed to felled treetrunks and borne along between the shoulders of two strong carriers." Yes Ed said many people have bad hygiene but he also said many people do bath properly, and which was my point it varies by nation to nation and people to people. So orcs are going to go use a chamber pot? Or giant's as well? or any of the other sentient creatures? Come on, again be realistic, not every creature has a chamber pot but most creatures are smart enough to know you don't expel your waste where you sleep or eat (if they have at least a 5+ int) If Faerun is not strong on "scientists" then how do they know how every humanoid's body works, what the blood does, what shock is, etc. Divine casters are "scientists" as well. Who needs a microsope when you can devise magic to do the same thing. That's the problem with D&D there really isn't any spells designed for study, etc. They are all mostly attack and defense spells. Also remember there is cure disease as a cleric spell.
newbDM 04-23-04, 03:09 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 [BSo orcs are going to go use a chamber pot? Or giant's as well? or any of the other sentient creatures? Come one again be realistic, not every creature has a chamber pot but most creatures are smart enough to know you don't expel your waste where you sleep or eat (if they have at least a 5+ more int) [/B] I just want to back this up, watch Animals Gorilla's, Cats, Dogs, etc, they don't expell where they sleep... certain ones may eat what they expel (Damn dirty dogs) but most don't sleep in it. I'm willing to risk saying 80% of animal breeds don't sleep in it. So Why would Orcs, Goblins etc who have good intelligence? Picture orcs more like Cavemen they have survived and thrived this long why wouldn't they know how to stave away the most basic of illness?
Kanaric 04-23-04, 06:18 PM	there are probably some groups that would AID the US if we attacked FR. Evil groups non the less though..... like cyric worshippers that want to spread chaos.... Also whose the say that the people from earth wouldn't learn magic if they went tot he other side. Plus the fact we could gt magic items from an intial invasion.... ALSO! Maybe there IS magic/psionics (dont doubt if there is psionics, just not like DND, lol) on earth and we just done know how to use it (in a fantasy sense at least, like if we were able to go to Faerun obviously there would have to be some kind of magic to allow us to get there in the first place.) . Like it could be possible for Toril and Earth to be on the same plane but just in different parts of the universe. Could make for an interesting story at least. What i think is funny about this thread though people are acting as if the very planet itself would be fighting us. It would simply be the major governments (if gots got involved it would be over, well.... evil gods might like us being there) fighting us, probably sending some spell casters. Faerun isn't filled to the brim with 20th level wizards who summon demons.
Kuje31 04-23-04, 06:33 PM	Originally posted by Kanaric ALSO! Maybe there IS magic/psionics (dont doubt if there is psionics, just not like DND, lol) on earth and we just done know how to use it (in a fantasy sense at least, like if we were able to go to Faerun obviously there would have to be some kind of magic to allow us to get there in the first place.) . Like it could be possible for Toril and Earth to be on the same plane but just in different parts of the universe. Could make for an interesting story at least. This was how it was in 2e. Earth and Faerun was part of the same Prime Material, as was Greyhawk, Krynn, Darksun, and many other prime worlds. El and others from Faerun have visited Earth before and El has said Earth DOES have magic, at least the Earth of D&D does.
Monsoon28 04-24-04, 07:04 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Yes Ed said many people have bad hygiene but he also said many people do bath properly, and which was my point it varies by nation to nation and people to people. This was your point? Sorry I missed that when you said 'everyone' has a bathing area, I will grant that certain areas may bathe more than others (since i believe that those in Calimshan and the Moonshae do have a healthy respect for cleanliness), but nothing said in any book causes me to believe they have knowledge of micro-organisms. They know about the human body? Bully for them, so did michaelangelo but he wasn't aware of bacteria/germs. So regardless to bathing once a day to once a week, their reason are not going to include 'because bacteria and germs can make me sick' So orcs are going to go use a chamber pot? Or giant's as well? or any of the other sentient creatures? Come on, again be realistic, not every creature has a chamber pot but most creatures are smart enough to know you don't expel your waste where you sleep or eat (if they have at least a 5+ int) Firstly, most other sentient creatures live in the wilds, that means they would crap in the wild or river. Of all the races in faerun that might have an organized 'facility' it would be the elves. Orcs? come on you tell me to be realistic? Orcs are one of the dirtiest and most foul of creatures, and if they're nomadic then yes they are the kind of creatures to 'poop' where they eat. IIRC in one of the 'Survivor' shows there was a camp who pretty much did crap where they slept (within 10 feet of their tent). So while we think Intelligence would say otherwise, it isn't always true. Who needs a microsope when you can devise magic to do the same thing. That's the problem with D&D there really isn't any spells designed for study, etc. They are all mostly attack and defense spells. Also remember there is cure disease as a cleric spell. So are we agreement on this part? While magic could be devised for this task (much as a wizard eye can be used in the roll of a spyglass), it isn't, so the study of micro-scopic life is something that doesn't happen? I'm aware of Cure Disease just like there is Cure Poison, doesn't mean a cleric is aware of how either works, just means he/she can call on a deity to cleanse the body of it. Just like a Herbalist isn't necessarily going to have any know outside of what this herb does and what that herb can do. One last thing, if Ed has said they know about "germs/bacteria" specifically than fine, though please, if you have a link to it i'd like to read it. Maybe Ed has a reason for this like Netheril discovered them, and the knowledge survived even though the civilization didn't (Shade Enclave being an exception). But if Ed has only said that some people are more hygienic in some area than others and that they are 'generally' aware of how the body works, than that's one big logic jump to saying they are aware of bacteria.
Kuje31 04-24-04, 07:28 PM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 One last thing, if Ed has said they know about "germs/bacteria" specifically than fine, though please, if you have a link to it i'd like to read it. Maybe Ed has a reason for this like Netheril discovered them, and the knowledge survived even though the civilization didn't (Shade Enclave being an exception). But if Ed has only said that some people are more hygienic in some area than others and that they are 'generally' aware of how the body works, than that's one big logic jump to saying they are aware of bacteria. I did quote it. :) ""Bookwyrm, I see medical knowledge as varying widely across the Realms, but being highest among demi-humans, because tending humans has been one longterm way of being accepted in human-dominated communities. Herb lore is predominant, coupled with “potions” (herbal concoctions, not magic) effective in dealing with minor diseases, allergic reactions, and shock. The organs of all humanoid races are known, plus the general functioning of the body (hence what shock is, and how to treat it), how blood ‘works,’ and the importance of cleanliness for wounds" Dealing with minor diseases, allergies, and shock. Again germs and diseases go hand in hand and there is even a goddess of said diseases. Who said there isn't magic that can't find germs? Again that's the problem with D&D there are really no spells created except for combat or defense. It's pretty far fetched logic that clerics wouldn't know what the cure disease and poison spells do when they are used. Germs also live in your body and if the races in FR know how the bodies and thier organs work it's still pretty far fetched that they don't understand that germs cause disease. I also said, in case you missed it a long time ago that yes every dungeon has a chamber where the races use the facilities. No it doesn't have to be lavish, etc but sentient races know enough not to use the facilities where they eat and sleep at least most do. The orc and giants were an EXAMPLE. Hells we are talking about a world where people can lose a limb and get it replaced with a perfectly working metal one, but noooooo they don't know that germs cause disease. Nope not at all. Or people can be turned into half-golems or half-undead or any other strange things, but knowing about germs, no that's to far fetched because people on earth didn't know about them until the microsope was invented. Even the Stronghold Builders Guidebook for 3e has cisterns and bathrooms in it. :) Yes it's not FR specific but it's still part of the 3e rules. But let's agree to disagree for now and I asked Ed to further clarify his statement that he said about a month ago. So hopefully when he's done with his taxes and writing some more text for the Waterdeep novel he'll answer. :)
Monsoon28 04-25-04, 03:50 AM	Ahh sorry did notice it was a quote! (Though I was wondering why you were calling me a bookwyrm) :D So are you saying that clerics know exactly what a Inflict wounds does or how a raise dead works? Sure in every case they know HOW the prayer works...their god answers it. My problem is that you say 'every' single dungeon, home, or whatever has a bathing area. Not that they exsist but that every single creature seems to make use of a 'bath room', yes cisterns, outhouses and chamber pots will all exsist, but to say everyone make use of them is unrealistic IMO. Replacing a limb is done through magic, same as people being turned into something else, this is through supernatural means not through science, every golem created is done through magic, not in some Dr. Frankenstein's laboratory. So it is completely conceivable to believe that they haven't looked into mirco-scopic life, or even are aware that such things may exsist. I very much agree to disagree! ;) but do enjoy the debate. :D I hope Ed can clarify this (he better hurry, the Canadian tax deadline is almost up!), so hopefully he'll finish his book and get to answering this very pressing question!! :smirk: Cheers!
Mirtek 04-25-04, 05:49 AM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 but to say everyone make use of them is unrealistic IMO. Except from things like Carrion Crawlers and things like Otyughs and some other aberrations I can't believe any being that would not use a bathroom or at least don't expel where they eat and sleep. The bathroom may be anything from just an hole in the earth a few hundred feet away from the main living area, to true toilet build above a small stream of water, but anyone will have something like this. Not even orcs, as dirty as they are would expel right there where they live.
Another Gnome 04-25-04, 07:45 AM	I believe it has been already stated that the medieval "dirtiness" on Earth was an exception, not the general rule of human cultural evolution. All in all, medieval people (that is, Europeans) were, in a word, stupid. Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and Chinese among others were centuries ahead in technology to what was seen in Central and Northern Europe in Medieval times. Running water in houses, flushable toilets and even showers were everyday things in Rome. There is even proof of a succesful brain surgery, and in general medicine was nothing like the European witch-doctoring later in the first millennium. Much of what was "invented" between 18th and 20th century in the "civilized" Europe had already been done a thousand years earlier elsewhere. Now, in the Realms there are people who've had more than 10,000 years to perfect their science, and while elven science is far less utilitarian and less widespread than that of humans (or everyone would likely be using antimatter cannons instead of bows), there's no reason to assume Faerūnians are as ignorant of things as medieval people on Earth were. To be exact, there is no medieval society on Toril, and there has never been one. People of the Realms don't burn scientists at a stake for suspecting them of being witches - and those that actually are "witches" tend to be best to leave alone...
Monsoon28 04-25-04, 08:48 AM	My problem with this is that Faerun was designed with European influence and did not really include the mediterranean parts of Europe. These strong influences include the Celtics, Norse, Gauls, England, France, Germany, Poland...), one does not get the sense of Greek or Roman cultures. We do have certain areas that seem to be influenced by the perisan, mesopotamian and eygptians. So when Ed was putting together the Dalelands and Cormyr he wasn't likely thinking, hmmmm I'll make it based on England but give it eygptian technology. No, Kara-Tur, Maztica and Al'Quadim are different continents that are very different to faerun. Even Molharand is treated like a whole other land even though it's part of faerun. There is a rudimentary form of plumbing in cities, hence sewers, but I've never seen mention of a 'flush toilet', or hot water heater for that matter. Faerun is not earth but face the facts, its society and its humans are based on very specific earth cultures, gods and customs. Including how they view cleanliness. So what is (euro) faerun then?? It isn't quite Dark Ages or Medieval or Renaissance or Gothic or Baroque, it does seem to be a mix of all of these with places more advanced in certain areas then others. The problem is that defication isn't a pretty topic, so writers don't tend to spend any time referring to it. That leaves us guessing who does what, where and how often? Now if Mr. Baker or Greenwood would like to spend time answering the who's and how's and with what's of this most uncherishable topic 'that would be greeeat'. (Sorry gotta use a Office Space quote) :D
Kuje31 04-25-04, 10:26 AM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 My problem with this is that Faerun was designed with European influence and did not really include the mediterranean parts of Europe. These strong influences include the Celtics, Norse, Gauls, England, France, Germany, Poland...), one does not get the sense of Greek or Roman cultures. We do have certain areas that seem to be influenced by the perisan, mesopotamian and eygptians. So when Ed was putting together the Dalelands and Cormyr he wasn't likely thinking, hmmmm I'll make it based on England but give it eygptian technology. No, Kara-Tur, Maztica and Al'Quadim are different continents that are very different to faerun. Even Molharand is treated like a whole other land even though it's part of faerun. There is a rudimentary form of plumbing in cities, hence sewers, but I've never seen mention of a 'flush toilet', or hot water heater for that matter. Faerun is not earth but face the facts, its society and its humans are based on very specific earth cultures, gods and customs. Including how they view cleanliness. So what is (euro) faerun then?? It isn't quite Dark Ages or Medieval or Renaissance or Gothic or Baroque, it does seem to be a mix of all of these with places more advanced in certain areas then others. The problem is that defication isn't a pretty topic, so writers don't tend to spend any time referring to it. That leaves us guessing who does what, where and how often? Now if Mr. Baker or Greenwood would like to spend time answering the who's and how's and with what's of this most uncherishable topic 'that would be greeeat'. (Sorry gotta use a Office Space quote) :D Actually your wrong, Ed has said repeatedly over and over that he DOES NOT base any of the lands of Faerun on ANY earth cultures because as I said FR is not Earth, it's Faerun. It's still silly to say that divine casters don't understand thier spells. That's like saying that arcane caster's don't either. I'm sorry but if some one should have wrote down what spells do after hmmm the 15,000+ years that humans or elves or any of the other races have been alive and getting divine magic. Your really going to tell me that druids or nature priests don't understand that germs exist and that they cause disease? It's not unrealistic to have a room or chamber or some place where they expel thier waste that is away from where races eat and sleep if they live in a dungeon. It could just be a hole in the ground all the way up to a lavish bath. It's more unrealistic that dungeons are designed without some thing like that.
Monsoon28 04-25-04, 11:08 AM	Greeeat Ed says that Faerun has nothing to do with earth, hmmm Tyche, Loviatar, Tyr, the entire Molhorandi Pantheon, right nothing to do with earth, Moonsea nothing at all like the Celts, etc, etc Sure if we're are saying that this all has to do with earth and faerun being connected long ago, then why is it that what was so apparently common knowledge in faerun never came to earth? Once again are you saying that a Priest casting resurrection knows how it works? Sure so then he should be able to just duplicate the process without the need of that pesky god! That's like saying since a person can cure a snake bite with anti-venom, they're all familiar with poisons and how anti-venom specifically works. Or like one of those tele-evangelist healers knowing how a child with MS is healed (if you believe in faith healing is a whole other issue). Once again the problem is that you say 'every' single home...even in our own world with all the wealth and power, there are still great sections of the world that don't have access to these luxuries like toilets and bath tubs/showers. Look at India where about 2/3's of all the population do open defecation, a country where only 30 percent of urban areas have access to sewage facilities and only 3% in rural areas. Then you tell me that every single structure in faerun is more advanced than this?! Netheril fell, most of what it had is lost, just like flush toilets in ancient crete 4000 years ago.
Kuje31 04-25-04, 11:28 AM	Originally posted by Monsoon28 Greeeat Ed says that Faerun has nothing to do with earth, hmmm Tyche, Loviatar, Tyr, the entire Molhorandi Pantheon, right nothing to do with earth, Moonsea nothing at all like the Celts, etc, etc Sure if we're are saying that this all has to do with earth and faerun being connected long ago, then why is it that what was so apparently common knowledge in faerun never came to earth? Once again are you saying that a Priest casting resurrection knows how it works? Sure so then he should be able to just duplicate the process without the need of that pesky god! That's like saying since a person can cure a snake bite with anti-venom, they're all familiar with poisons and how anti-venom specifically works. Or like one of those tele-evangelist healers knowing how a child with MS is healed (if you believe in faith healing is a whole other issue). Once again the problem is that you say 'every' single home...even in our own world with all the wealth and power, there are still great sections of the world that don't have access to these luxuries like toilets and bath tubs/showers. Look at India where about 2/3's of all the population do open defecation, a country where only 30 percent of urban areas have access to sewage facilities and only 3% in rural areas. Then you tell me that every single structure in faerun is more advanced than this?! Netheril fell, most of what it had is lost, just like flush toilets in ancient crete 4000 years ago. Okay number one: Those deities are NOT the same deities from Earth except in name only. Loviatar is not the same Loviatar from the Finnish pantheon, Oghma is even female from our earth cultures. Number two: In D&D it NEVER specifies where those deities come from because the Prime is infinite. They might be from Earth but then again they might not be, because there are hundreds if not thousands of worlds on the Prime since it's infinite. Yes I don't care what you say, but a divine caster knows what spells he is using and how they work. Especially since many of them have components that are either a holy symbol, or hand gestures or prayers. Why would you pray for a spell if you don't know how it works? "I need to change the wind and I know there is this wind changing spell but please mr/mrs deity I don't know how it works but just please give it to me." "I need to heal my friend here but I don't know how the cure spell works, but just give it to me any ways." See how silly that sounds? I never said all the places have toilets or working baths. But every dungeon should have a place where they expel thier waste. Again it could be a simple hole in the floor inside a stone, or wood, or some other material chamber, all the way up to a lavish working bathroom. If I as a PC was going through a dungeon I'd want a realistic dungeon, so that would include a place where the races expel thier waste, a place where they sleep, a place where they eat or store or cook food, etc. Again it's realistic dungeon design. Let's see here, Aurora sells soap for 1CP to 1GP at her stores so peasants can afford a copper peice for a bar of soap. Furthermore here's a link about the guy who further created some of the areas of FR you just listed as have to do with Earth. http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9904B&L=realms-l&P=R6820
Silverblade The Enchanter 04-25-04, 02:34 PM	*sigh* some points: 1) Modern weaponry *is* incredibly powerful. Standard 7.62mm belt fed machine gun can cut down a tree for example. But problem with say, Vulcan cannons versus dragons is that FIGHTER aircraft go *too fast* to be of much use against smaller agile foes. Think about this for ALL weaponry, your tank cannon will have a hell of a time hitting a balor who flies jumps, dodges and isn't standing still. Tank guns are designed to hit *tanks* and vehicles, not living creatures (they use area effect weapons for personnel) 2) Damage reduction would have an effect, though the impact from say a .50 calibre bullet is at least as damaging as a greatsword swung by a VERY strong man (both will hack limbs off with each hit). Most footsoldiers do not have such powerful weapons, modern 5.56 mm guns are *pathetic* manstoppers, compared to the older .30 calibre stuff. If a modern 9mm handgun has problem stopping the average criminal, it isn't going to do diddly squat to stop an ogre cutting you in half (even if it dies afterwards) 3) Modern weaponry requires sophisticated targetting equipment. Note GPS won't be available and AWACS *cannot* replace GPS precision guidance for ANY Tomahawk, ICBM, JDAMs etc. So you are forced to rely on radar, infrared, optical systems, plus the oberserver. So count out ALL Tomahawk, ICBM, JDAM type weapons. --Radar, infravision and optical may not work against Inivisibility and similar illusions. From 2nd Edition it implicitly stated invisibility blocked infravision, I'd say the same in 3rd Ed, ergo it fools *light* based sight...this includes RADAR! Radar is electromagnetic radiation, same as visible and infra red light folks. Thus invisibility should fool radar, infravision optical and laser devices. --Most military advanced weaponry systems have IFF systems (Identify friend of foe) to stop screw ups, could magic replicate this to fool systems? you could learn of such using Charm on captured personnel by the way. --Underwater systems rely on very noisy mahcinery to provide the sound to identify and target. You won't get that from krakens etc. 4) Earth-explosive devices produce fire, sonic, piercing, slashing and blunt damage all in one, they are MEAN. Damage though falls off quickly, however (you can still be unlucky and get beheaded at half a mile though). Modern area efefct wepons saturate an area with lesser damage, such as Long Raneg Missile Systems, dropping bomblets over target area. You do NOT use those on a couple of people though!! So no, unless you KNEW there was an archmage in front of you with his 2 gaurds, you wouldn't waste them. 5) Tanks planes etc are *very* vulnerable to fire damage. Electiricty as well which woudl wreck havoc on electronics. Various corrosion effects may wreck equipment. 6) The sight of literally seeing undead, demons etc would cause panic and insanity. While most Western amries are very wel trained, in other places it varies, and humans are nto used ot seeing such. Superstition, regional fears etc..*bad* combo for the humans. 7) Earth military is superb at fast responses and organization, don't take it lightly. But in a *totally foreign world*, with no maps, who knows what screw ups by things simply not working or being unknown... 8) Guerilla warfare totally favours the defenders, and gureilla fighters with magic would be horrific. It is easy for us to sniff and think that clouds of poison gas, comrades rising as undead etc wouldn't be that bad...yah *THINK AGAIN!* You see what happens to grousp of people when odd stuff occurs in real life, and they try figuring it out, never mind slap-bang-in-your-face magic and horror. 9) So large open battles may favour Earth, but elsewhere, the Relams folk would have advantage. 10) Hits from melee weapons and arrows are MORE lethal than most firearm wounds, seriously (check up on this if you want, but generlaly edged piercing wounds are highly likely to kill you from blodo loss very fast, where as gunshots immobilize by shock but are often surviviable). Firearms range, rapid fire, less training required and ability to penetrate makes them mean (and bullets penetrate because of physical ENERGY, they hit with extreme STRENGTH folks, not by soem "magic" ability, just like Conan with a 2hander sword hacks you literally in two pieces). So with range and preparedness, guns > melee. In the dark, up close, by surprise, dont' underestimate magical weapons. 11) Airbases, with all their aviation fuel and munitions, would be be very vulnerable ot magic users. 12) Note only a lunatic uses NBC (nuclear bacteriological chemical) weapons, because the effects *will* hit you or your troops or render an area you wish deadly. Modern militaries are very little affected by them if prepared and not taking direct nuke hits, but long term they screw you up terribly. This, beyond even morality is why they are NOT used by the military: they are a bloody liability. As noted, GPS and mapping isn't available so ICBMS *cannot* be used anyway, they'd need to be theatre-launched..i.e. from planes, artillery or missiles. --Much of the stocks of nukes have been destroyed over the past 20 years. 13) Magically affected weather could prevent the use of or destroy aircraft and shipping. Hurricane >>> 60,000 aircraft carrier, especially with corrsion holes below its waterline. 14) Earth equipment requires a hell of a lot of maintenance and resources. They frequently are inopperable. 15) How much material can this portal let pass through? The portal itself does affect this, to allow ships planes etc it would need ot be at sea. How many tons per day can get through? Several attacks on the area would make it hazardous to get through,requiring constant clearing.
Mirtek 04-25-04, 03:33 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Okay number one: Those deities are NOT the same deities from Earth except in name only. Loviatar is not the same Loviatar from the Finnish pantheon, Oghma is even female from our earth cultures. Number two: In D&D it NEVER specifies where those deities come from because the Prime is infinite. They might be from Earth but then again they might not be, because there are hundreds if not thousands of worlds on the Prime since it's infinite. Actually On Hallowed Grounds tells us that they are the very same deities from the Finnish, Celtish, and whatever pantheons and how they decided to also move into the FR.
Derren S. 04-25-04, 03:40 PM	Which is 2Ed planescape. After the change of the edition, the dropping of planescape and especally after the change of the cosmology those informations aren't reliable.
Kuje31 04-25-04, 04:14 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek Actually On Hallowed Grounds tells us that they are the very same deities from the Finnish, Celtish, and whatever pantheons and how they decided to also move into the FR. Yes it says that but it DOES NOT say they came from Earth. Show me a passage that specifically says "These pantheons come from a world called Earth." There is no such passage because they are worshipped on multiple worlds since the prime is infinite. None of the FR books specifically says what world(s) the Mulhorandi pantheon came from all it says is a different prime world. Does it say Earth? No it does not.
Mirtek 04-25-04, 04:30 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Yes it says that but it DOES NOT say they came from Earth. Show me a passage that specifically says "These pantheons come from a world called Earth." There is no such passage because they are worshipped on multiple worlds since the prime is infinite. None of the FR books specifically says what world(s) the Mulhorandi pantheon came from all it says is a different prime world. Does it say Earth? No it does not. Doesn't matter that it didn't say that they came from earth. I did not say that they came from Earth. You said that D&D Loviatar is not Loviatar from the Finnish Pantheon, but OHG says that she is. Why should this pantheon come from earth? Do you know that there were no D&D worlds where this pantheon was worshipped before Earth was even created? According to OHG the Chinese Pantheon is worshipped on hundreds of Prime Material Worlds. Earth could be among them (very likely, since in 2e Earth was a prime material world just like Krynn, Oerth, and Toril). But why should we thing that these pantheon came from our world (in a D&D point of view), only our world is/was one of the hundreds of world on which these guys are/were worshipped doesn't make Earth the world of their birth.
entrari 04-25-04, 05:09 PM	hi i'm havin some fun reading this thread so i'd like to put in my thoughts i think that should the battle be 1 on 1 FR would win hands down thing is i think we hav more fighters dan they do dragons more ships than krakens more special forces than knights more long range weaponry than spells and earth forces should not be sent out in one large lumbering army rather in forces of lets say 1k-10k? meaning we could probably field in hundreds of these and they could all inflict lots of damage also dragons cant bring match fighters in sped or firepower so air superiority there and also mages need to rest after casting so many spells also range is a large advantage of modern weaponry i dont think FR mages can scan every inch of square ground lets say kraken/leviathan brings down a ship other ships in the fleet torpedo it dragon goes for a fighter only to find it goin too fast while another fighter shoots it down just aim for the wings we'd hav problems w wights and the like but i doubt they're that widespread or there wouldnt be anyone on faerun also their gods vs ours negate each other no ned to nuke dem just send an a-bomb so we'd have a major deterent city states would listen to negotiations then while we take down other nations peace :)
Derren S. 04-25-04, 05:18 PM	A Kraken can sink a whole fleet within minutes with its controll spells and no dragon is needed for a single soldier but rather for a whole battalion. Earth has superionr weapons, but they are still mundane. low-mid level spells are as effective and mid-high level spells are much more powerfull. A single high level mage can kill hundreds of soldiers before he has to rest. Use a-bombs for intimidation? With magic you can locate and neutralize it within minutes and as revenge a single epic mage can destroy a metropolis on earth. Your 10k soldiers would be all dead within a 4 days when they are facing determined resistance by mages.
Kuje31 04-25-04, 05:21 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek Doesn't matter that it didn't say that they came from earth. I did not say that they came from Earth. You said that D&D Loviatar is not Loviatar from the Finnish Pantheon, but OHG says that she is. Why should this pantheon come from earth? Do you know that there were no D&D worlds where this pantheon was worshipped before Earth was even created? According to OHG the Chinese Pantheon is worshipped on hundreds of Prime Material Worlds. Earth could be among them (very likely, since in 2e Earth was a prime material world just like Krynn, Oerth, and Toril). But why should we thing that these pantheon came from our world (in a D&D point of view), only our world is/was one of the hundreds of world on which these guys are/were worshipped doesn't make Earth the world of their birth. Then you misread it because I said its not the same deity of the Finnish pantheon that is found here on EARTH as in the real life Finnish pantheon that pagans here on EARTH worship. "Okay number one: Those deities are NOT the same deities from Earth except in name only. Loviatar is not the same Loviatar from the Finnish pantheon, Oghma is even female from our earth cultures." See I said in NAME ONLY and you misread what I posted. I don't care what the D&D books say because that isn't what I posted. I was talking about EARTH as in our planet, since Monsoon keeps saying D&D is based on medievil culture of EARTH, as in our planet and those deities are taken from OUR pantheons. However as I originally posted before you misunderstood what I posted, that is not true except in name only.
Gemstone 04-26-04, 06:15 AM	Acutally, it entierly depends on HOW we start the war. If we start with nuking down every big city in the entire faerun, I don't think there will be much resistance. Also, about dragons... eehh... they aren't even half as fast as a jet so they will probably be killed by the guns that the jets carries. Also, ever thought about lucky shots? Even a level 1 ftr can kill an ancient dragon if he hits it in the eye with an arrow... Also, invisibilty makes you invisible, but what about radar and other devices? Of course elminister could take care of an entire army all by himself, but im pretty damn sure that some long range snipers, artillery etc. would kick his ass if they hit. To counter all this... Faerūn's best hopes would be all their high level clerics, wizards sorcerors etc. togheter with the outisders. But would the outisders care about Faerūn? I think that normal human soliders from our time would win over the most of the things that Faerūn can send towards us, but the high level and high cr stuff would be hard... aswell for the things about Krakens, yes, they are silent but you can use other systems to see their movement. We also have killing gas, snipers etc. hmm... also, I don't think we would attack Faerūn without gathering some information first and... would all spells acutally function on us? Wouldn't those who pray to our gods get spells aswell? Oh mighty Allah! Help me! What the... a cure spell? I believe that our world would win since we have nukes, snipers etc. but as I said in the beginning, it all depends on how we start the war.
Cunning Linguist 04-26-04, 06:33 AM	Also, invisibilty makes you invisible, but what about radar and other devices? Does your run of the mill soldier go around with a radar? Besides, a silence spell prevents any radar detection. If we start with nuking down every big city in the entire faerun, I don't think there will be much resistance. we must have said this atleast 30 times, no nukes. Earth should invade, not destroy. But would the outisders care about Faerūn? When a mage casts a summon spells, it does not shrug and go "I don't care" they do what they are told to. aswell for the things about Krakens, yes, they are silent but you can use other systems to see their movement. Like what? hmm... also, I don't think we would attack Faerūn without gathering some information first and... would all spells acutally function on us? Wouldn't those who pray to our gods get spells aswell? The first post stats that earth only knows a small amount of info on Faerun. Spell would function, since we as humans don't have any natural SR. Our gods would not start granting spells, since they are all false. Kind of like praying for spells from Ao.
Derren S. 04-26-04, 07:20 AM	Originally posted by Gemstone Also, about dragons... eehh... they aren't even half as fast as a jet so they will probably be killed by the guns that the jets carries. How will the jets be able to hit the dragon when they are at least double as fast as dragons, having no computer supported aim because of lacking lock on and without be able to see the dragon because of invisibility? Also, ever thought about lucky shots? Even a level 1 ftr can kill an ancient dragon if he hits it in the eye with an arrow... No, they can't. No called shots in D&D and the double twenty rule is optional. Also, invisibilty makes you invisible, but what about radar and other devices? Of course elminister could take care of an entire army all by himself, but im pretty damn sure that some long range snipers, artillery etc. would kick his ass if they hit. Good luck detecting a single person with radar. And even if you manage to kill Elminster despite all his protection spells and contagincies, he will be ressurected within hours if not his clone wakes up and continues to kill armies. But would the outisders care about Faerūn? Good outsiders yes, the others can be commanded to care (by summons and bindings) I think that normal human soliders from our time would win over the most of the things that Faerūn can send towards us, but the high level and high cr stuff would be hard... You don't need that high level. CR6 is very hard. Try to kill a troll with guns. Earth can maybe defeat normal lvl 2 warriors but thats all. We also have killing gas, snipers etc. And Faerun has Cloudkill, Deepwood Sniper, invisible assasines and in addition protection from arrows and Necklaces of adaption. hmm... also, I don't think we would attack Faerūn without gathering some information first [b][quote] Good luck gathering information when you don't know the area, don't speak the language, don't know the customs without beeing captured.[b][quote] and... would all spells acutally function on us? Yes. Wouldn't those who pray to our gods get spells aswell? Do our priests get spells on earth? No. Why should they get spells when comming to Faerun especially because our gods aren't active on Toril. I believe that our world would win since we have nukes, snipers etc. Snipers are useless when mages have protection from arrows. And with locate creature they can be found easily. And even if they kill a high level character he will be ressurected anyway. Nukes likewise can be detected with locate object and be destroyed before they can be launched. As unattended objects they can also be affected by a wish more easily. And Faerun has Epic Spells like Rain of Fire which can be simmilar than nukes and invisible assasines which are better than earths'sniper.
Gemstone 04-26-04, 09:35 AM	About protection from normal missiles... according to the rules in D20 modern, it protects you from bullets, however, I believe that bullets ARE NOT normal missiles since they travel much faster than the normal arrow. Also, about the damage... 2d6 for a gun is like... ehh... as likely as a nuke dealing 10d6 damage to a target. I would say that if you take a shotgun and fire towards a troll, that troll will be pretty bad hurt. But anyway, we still conquer if we use nukes, ever heard about tactical nukes ?
Cunning Linguist 04-26-04, 09:46 AM	But anyway, we still conquer if we use nukes, ever heard about tactical nukes ? I have yet to see them in a war, and without GPS they would be close to useless.
Derren S. 04-26-04, 09:54 AM	Originally posted by Gemstone I believe that bullets ARE NOT normal missiles since they travel much faster than the normal arrow. And? This spell protects against all ranged weapons. Speed or size is not an issue. If it protects against a stown thrown by a giant or a ballista bolt, then why not against a small lead bullet? Also, about the damage... 2d6 for a gun is like... ehh... as likely as a nuke dealing 10d6 damage to a target. I would say that if you take a shotgun and fire towards a troll, that troll will be pretty bad hurt. And if you take a full swing with a greataxe against a troll the troll will be chopped in half. Compared to what a greataxe or greatsword can do the damage of a bullet is very small.
Necrontyr 04-26-04, 10:09 AM	But belief is a powerful thing. Mightn't millions of sentient beings all venerating one single being spontaneously generate a god. And why would Protection From Arrows protect a mage from sniper bullets. The mage who invented the spell designed it for arrows not for bullets travelling at incredibly high speeds, way fast than any thrown object or ballista bolt etc. Guns today don't fire one bullet. They fire hundreds in seconds. Ask the Iraqis if five seconds of automatic fire doesn't rip you up just as much as an axe. Fireballs, cloudkills and the like wouldn't be as effective as you think. Today's soldiers don't line up and charge at the enemy. They use cover, spread out, flank the enemy, call in airstrikes etc. Again, FR's spells are designed for combatting FR opponents. Obviously, some spells would still do incredible amounts of damage but many would be ineffective and obsolete. A mage can only cast so many spells at once and a single platoon of soldiers armed with automatic weapons surrounding him would take him down through sheer number of bullets alone. And wouldn't many of our soldiers be high level with high level saves? Your average SEAL or Delta Force commando would be at least 10th level I'd think. What's the area affected by this Rain of Fire? Can it take out entire cities (Earth cities mind you)? How about rendering soil useless for thousands of years? Does it disintigrate everything for miles around the detonation point? Does it cause mutations for generations? And even Elminster could only cast a few per day. All the high level mages on Faerun could cast no more than a few hundred and you wouldn't send them all to Earth. The US alone has over 20,000 nuclear weapons (on warheads, not devices that sit on the ground and slowly count down) and Russia even more than that. And all these could be launched in a few hours. The entirety of Toril would be one big flat glassy lifeless ball by the time we'd finished with it. Which we would if a bunch of punk-a** archmages started knocking down our cities. And finally, no archmage worth his salt is dumb enough to bring outsiders into this. I've said it before and I'll say it again, can you imagine what the Baatezu would do to get hold of the Bomb. Faerun (or Earth on the flipside) would be invaded not only by Earth, but by the Nine Hells, hundreds of demon armies, maybe the githyanki, possibly the illithid (maybe enough nukes could take out a sun? Or at least they think), the list goes on. And if our possibly non-existant gods don't grant spells on Toril. Why would magic work on Earth. There's no Mystra and no Weave on Earth. And human soldiers can only defeat level 2? What crap. An automatic bullet could kill anything not protected magically (and even then its only a matter of time). Trolls? Phhhhh. Try fighting a troll with a flamethrower and tell me who comes out on top. How 'bout napalm on anything remotely tough on Faerun. It's not normal fire and its not magical. Even if we don't use nukes we've got conventional attilary that can fire a long, long way. Hundreds of kilometres even. Finally (long post), we'd have far more than 10k soldiers. More like 10 million. A whole new world to conquer. I think most major powers would set aside their feuds. No point in fighting over valuable Earth land when there's lots more on the other side of a portal. China alone would send millions. Ooooooo, another idea. When we found out the Norse/Roman/Greek/ Egyptian/Chinese and even Hindu? gods are real wouldn't we all start worshipping them. I know I would. In an instant.
Derren S. 04-26-04, 10:31 AM	Originally posted by Necrontyr And why would Protection From Arrows protect a mage from sniper bullets. The mage who invented the spell designed it for arrows not for bullets travelling at incredibly high speeds, way fast than any thrown object or ballista bolt etc. You forget that guns exist on Faerun. And PfA works against those. Speed is not an issue. Ranged weapon is a ranged weapon. Guns today don't fire one bullet. They fire hundreds in seconds. Ask the Iraqis if five seconds of automatic fire doesn't rip you up just as much as an axe. Yes. So why are the given damage values of guns wrong? They do slightly more damage than a greataxe (not everyting is full auto) a single platoon of soldiers armed with automatic weapons surrounding him would take him down through sheer number of bullets alone. No, they would be running because they can't see the mage and have enough problems killing the large elemental he summoned. And when the wizard runs out of spells he simply teleports away or rope tricks till he rememorized. What's the area affected by this Rain of Fire? Can it take out entire cities (Earth cities mind you)? A 20 hour rain of fire in a 2 mile radius. Yes, that would do it. Don't forget that epic spells can easily be modified. How about rendering soil useless for thousands of years? The 9th level spell Genesis can do that already Does it disintigrate everything for miles around the detonation point? Why should this spells? Desintegrating everything would be overkill, but it can certainly be made with epic seeds. The US alone has over 20,000 nuclear weapons (on warheads, not devices that sit on the ground and slowly count down) and Russia even more than that. And all these could be launched in a few hours. And would uselessly explode when they hit a Wall of Force in front of the portal or malfunction because it was wished that those nukes don't explode. Which we would if a bunch of punk-a** archmages started knocking down our cities. If archmages do this they would already have secured the portals and earth can't use them anymore. And finally, no archmage worth his salt is dumb enough to bring outsiders into this. I've said it before and I'll say it again, can you imagine what the Baatezu would do to get hold of the Bomb. Why do the devils don't get the bomb anyway? They are not blind. And summoned creatures are no problem. They aren't real only called are. And why not call celestials instead of demons? Faerun (or Earth on the flipside) would be invaded not only by Earth, but by the Nine Hells, hundreds of demon armies, maybe the githyanki, possibly the illithid (maybe enough nukes could take out a sun? Or at least they think), the list goes on. Yes, problem for earth is that they are not trained/equipped to deal with them. Faerun is. And if our possibly non-existant gods don't grant spells on Toril. Why would magic work on Earth. There's no Mystra and no Weave on Earth. [b][quote] Ed has said before that magic works on earth. Also many planes have no Weave, but magic works anyway.[b][quote] And human soldiers can only defeat level 2? What crap. An automatic bullet could kill anything not protected magically (and even then its only a matter of time). Trolls? Phhhhh. Try fighting a troll with a flamethrower and tell me who comes out on top. How 'bout napalm on anything remotely tough on Faerun. It's not normal fire and its not magical. So every soldier carries a flamethrower besides his portable radar, IR helmet, Sniper rifle and assault MG. And you drop a Napalm bomb on every troll. How long do you think can earth keep this up when 90% of their supplies get destroyed every night? Even if we don't use nukes we've got conventional attilary that can fire a long, long way. Hundreds of kilometres even. Without spotter? Good luck hitting anything. Finally (long post), we'd have far more than 10k soldiers. More like 10 million. A whole new world to conquer. I think most major powers would set aside their feuds. No point in fighting over valuable Earth land when there's lots more on the other side of a portal. China alone would send millions. Then China alone will loose millions. The supply lines are the weakness of earth. The more men you send the faster supplies run dry. And magic is superb in guerilia strikes which disrupt/destroy supply lines.
Mirtek 04-26-04, 11:36 AM	Originally posted by Necrontyr Can it take out entire cities (Earth cities mind you)? Easily. One single high level druid/cleric/wizard/sorcerer can take out several large cities in less than an hour. Did you see Day after tomorrow? Creating all those tsunamis, hurricanes, whirlwinds, vulcanos right in the heart of Washington, New York, or Los Angelas would be a piece of cake for a single high level druid/cleric/wizard/sorcerer. If only half of Faeruns array of high level casters went to earth they could raze every Earth city with more than 1,000,000 population in a single night. And they wouldn't even take any risks. They would go with astral projection and if slain would simply awaken back in their own bodies, completly unharmed.
Gemstone 04-27-04, 03:57 AM	Actualy, I believe that the Drow would have a HARD time getting our supplies... I mean, no drow have ever seen a can before and actualy, I think that a wall of force would turn into ash (litteraly) if hit by a nuke... heck, I think even EPIC spells would have a hard time countering something that can destroy so much. And about that thing with wizards... there are NOT so many wizards on Faerun, not even half of what you are claiming. Wizards are rare, at least high level. Sure, there are pretty many low level wizards but still, the majority of Faerūnian's are not wizards/sorcerers/clerics/druids etc. Also, I don't think that all of Faerūn would unite and therefore they would lose the war since there are fewer to attack at once and there are fewer archmages. Also, why in the world would they send trolls or even other creatures towards us... I don't think that they would see any point in attacking so we would mostly deal with humanoid wizards/soldiers. I do aggre that protection from normal Missiles perhaps protect against bullets, but if they have + weapon, we have a counter. Bazooka anyone? And I belive that the Faerūnian people would have as much trouble as us with the morale and fear since we do stuff they never seen before. I mean, a soldier that can see invisible stuff without magic? Or a low level soldier being able to throw fireballs! And about that thing with dragons... I never mentioned anything about a called shot. I said LUCKY SHOT. If you fire about 100 bullets each round, the chance of rolling a 20 is pretty damn high and hitting something vital. Also, there are many kinds of missiles. Not only heat-seeking or lasertracking. What did they use before heat-seeking stuff? Well missiles that you fired with the help of a cross. But this is a goal less debate... there will always be those who believe that Faerūn would win and those who believe that Earth would win. Btw. as far as I know, our would is a "dead magic" world, else there would be sorcerers/clerics etc.
mortellan 04-27-04, 04:47 AM	I think that a wall of force would turn into ash (litteraly) if hit by a nuke... things made of force have no real substance and wouldn't turn to ash, but given that the power of a nuke is at the atomic level there is -no- telling what would happen. heck, I think even EPIC spells would have a hard time countering something that can destroy so much.This may be true, it all has alot of variables including line of sight, area of effect and even initiative. And about that thing with wizards... there are NOT so many wizards on Faerun, not even half of what you are claiming. Wizards are rare, at least high level. Sure, there are pretty many low level wizards but still, the majority of Faerūnian's are not wizards/sorcerers/clerics/druids etc. No....I'm afraid there are that many. When FR first came out it was much more toned down than it is in 3.5 edition. Also, I don't think that all of Faerūn would unite and therefore they would lose the war since there are fewer to attack at once and there are fewer archmages. Also, why in the world would they send trolls or even other creatures towards us... I don't think that they would see any point in attacking so we would mostly deal with humanoid wizards/soldiers. The Faerunians would try to wage war their way and once it became apparent it wouldn't work that's when the trolls and shadows and archmage badness would start. I do aggre that protection from normal Missiles perhaps protect against bullets, but if they have + weapon, we have a counter. Bazooka anyone? Ugh. I never mentioned anything about a called shot. I said LUCKY SHOT. If you fire about 100 bullets each round, the chance of rolling a 20 is pretty damn high and hitting something vital. That's called a 'critical threat', now re-roll to confirm it for a critical hit. :P
Archangel 04-27-04, 05:26 AM	What, Astral Project themselves on Faerun. I don't think so. If Earth invaded Astral Plane then they could do that. I people you depend to much on D&D numbers and rules, expecialy current ones. Nobody from the Wizard's said that they are the most realistic only that they are most fun to play D&D with. So don't depend so much on the actual numbers. Even Archmages are afraid when they go into battle. Instant kills are always possible, even if it is a optional rule (and it is that because of balance and fun, not realism). A bullet between the eyes is an instant kill, be you lvl 2 or 22! D&D HP don't work in the real world. White Wolf rules would be more appropriate for HP for this discussion because these thread was intended more for talk of tactics and less for this gun does 2d6 as a greatsword. It is not important because both kill instantly when they hit somebody in the head. And there is always that 1 in a 8000 chance of a bullet to the head that goes through all the defenses!
Ramius_Mordale 04-27-04, 05:35 AM	Random post here. *Looks in disbelief* Wow, thats a lot. Now I'm just going to hide in this bunker until its over. *Sneaks away very quietly* (Rolls a natural 20 on Move Silently check) Damn! Got spotted. *runs away* :P But seriously, in order not to get in trouble for just posting off subject. Got the wild card of the century up my sleeve, and it is.....The Chosen of Mystra oh yeah touch down!!!!! Hehe... sorry couldn't resist.:D Let's see, Archmage vs. high level guy from Earth. Eh, depends if the Earth guy wins initiative AND if he caught that Archmage with his pants down, figuratively speaking. That means no protection spells except magic items in effect. Eh, short term US would win if they basically quickly isolate all the countries within a few weeks. Possible but on a very tight time table. Just one thing I would like to add about the spell casters. I did some reading up in some 2nd Edition books, yes I read something on FR this time:P, and I think Mystra doesn't allow spells past 10 th Level. Now not saying Shadow Weave users are limited in this regard. Actually a Shadow Weave user wouldn't be affected by the dead and wild magic zones for the Weave or is this incorrect? In the long term, FR wins hands down. Although I hate to admit it, those Archmages are buff but only can be stop by the equally buff Divine caster. Nukes are probably a last resort weapon when it is absolutely impossible to beat the FR forces. But, if an Archwizard used meter swarm on an Earth city when they began their counter assault all beats are off at that point. Especially, if a wizard used the Widen and Maximize metamagic feats on the spell. Nukes would be sent on the otherside, or if that isn't possible they would sneak it into the Realms in a couple of places then set off the nukes. (By this time expect them to have a least a few magic items able to protect them from scrying, please humor me on that point) Well, I hope I didn't repeat something said earlier but thats just my few silver worth. Now pass me my ale so I can get back at being drunk! :P
Derren S. 04-27-04, 07:36 AM	Originally posted by Archangel What, Astral Project themselves on Faerun. I don't think so. If Earth invaded Astral Plane then they could do that. Step 1: Archmage planeshifts to private pocket plane. Step 2: Archmage projects. Step 3: Projected image planeshifts to faerun. Voila, you have an projected image of an archmage with all abilities and equipment of the original, but when it dies nothing hapens to the archmage. He only wakes up from trance and can cast Astral Projection again. He is virtually unkillable. Even Archmages are afraid when they go into battle. Yes, they are afraid that they have to wast another clone. If not a cleric ressurects them. Creating clones hurts. Instant kills are always possible, even if it is a optional rule (and it is that because of balance and fun, not realism). A bullet between the eyes is an instant kill, be you lvl 2 or 22! D&D HP don't work in the real world. Then a magic missile kills too. That turns even low level mages and even other classes with UMD in killing machines. With improved invisibility and enough magic missile they can kill dozens of soldiers without beeing harmed. It is not important because both kill instantly when they hit somebody in the head.[b][quote] Or a magic missile, which has the additional benefit that it doesn't miss and is easily casteable. Together with invisibility a hugh advantage for Faerun.[b][quote] And there is always that 1 in a 8000 chance of a bullet to the head that goes through all the defenses! Only mundane defenses. Magical defenses still block bullets. And another advantage FR has over Earth. You can use D&D rules or not, either way FR wins. By this time expect them to have a least a few magic items able to protect them from scrying, please humor me on that point How should Earth get them? They can't use magic, they can't understand magic, they can't create magic, shot earth is absolutely defensless against magic. When some diviners are activly looking for they can know if and where the nukes are on faerun one week in advance. That makes sneaking nukes in impossible because high level mages know where they are.
kamiblackflag 04-27-04, 08:33 AM	thats the most foolish campaign idead i've ever heard, i pity your players.
mortellan 04-27-04, 08:34 PM	Step 1: Archmage planeshifts to private pocket plane. Step 2: Archmage projects. Step 3: Projected image planeshifts to faerun. Voila, you have an projected image of an archmage with all abilities and equipment of the original, but when it dies nothing hapens to the archmage. He only wakes up from trance and can cast Astral Projection again. He is virtually unkillableMind-spinning technique, VERY gamerly. I'm curious if its ever been done in a FR novel. This an excellent reason why the FR should already be slagged before an Earth invasion arrives. improved invisibility and enough magic missile they can kill dozens of soldiers without beeing harmed.Additional protections aside, if you play it by the rules. Even an invisible wizard will give away his position once he fires a magic missile(think a tracer bullet). After he uses his spell he can't move until his next turn, and will be under fire from opposition, despite the 50% miss, he will get hit eventually. When some diviners are activly looking for they can know if and where the nukes are on faerun one week in advanceHelp me, how did you get one week in advance? I know gods with portfolio sense can see things a week before they happen, I am skeptical a mortal could is all.
Otakkun 04-27-04, 11:56 PM	Wow, this will entretain me for hours before I catch up. In the meanwhile, I'll just drop my own bet. Faerun wins. Forget about troops, damage, protections, etc. It's as simple as this: Chain of command. Epic wizard casts divination, teleport, mass domination. Earth has no leaders. Rinse and repeat. Really, earth commanders would have no place were to hide. None at all. With mass domination Faerun would have earth forces killing themselves within hours. Another important factor ... I think earth troops would defect to go and live in faerun. Who would pass up the oportunity to learn magic and live in a world were you can actually talk to your Gods and have them talk back to you?
Derren S. 04-28-04, 03:26 AM	Originally posted by mortellan Mind-spinning technique, VERY gamerly. I'm curious if its ever been done in a FR novel. This an excellent reason why the FR should already be slagged before an Earth invasion arrives. Its still a viable tactic. In how many FR novels where alchemist fire used? But alchemyst fire still works. Only because it hasn't appeared in a novel doesn't mean it doesn't work. Additional protections aside, if you play it by the rules. Even an invisible wizard will give away his position once he fires a magic missile(think a tracer bullet). After he uses his spell he can't move until his next turn, and will be under fire from opposition, despite the 50% miss, he will get hit eventually. Now who is thinking gamerly here? 1st. You do not get any boni to detect an invisible mage when he casts a spell. 2nd. You can use your move action after your standart action so he can move after firing his spell. Help me, how did you get one week in advance? I know gods with portfolio sense can see things a week before they happen, I am skeptical a mortal could is all. Divination works 1 week in advance. Read the spell.
Necrontyr 04-28-04, 03:50 AM	A few reasons why Faerun would not win (but I'm not nessacarily saying Earth would. 1. I've heard all about magic taking out Earth cities but how the bloody hell would magic work on Earth? There's no Mystra and thus no Weave. Even if Earth has a natural spell-producing 'thing' then it wouldn't be Faerun's Weave so FR spells wouldn't work. 2. Our technology would be incomprehensible to the vast majority of Faerunians and while we are unfamiliar with magic (at least in recent times) we do (or will) understand that it exists. Thus they wouldn't know what a nuke or missile or gun or plane looked like and at first would take them out, thus giving Earth the element of suprise. Even Elminster wouldn't understand a computer (at least not at first and with an invasion going on he wouldn't have time to study it). 3. Whoever said that nukes would beat magic is right. Nuclear weapons work on an atomic level. I like to think of it Matrix style, magic bends the rules of physics but are still made of the same basic building blocks of life. So be it a wall, magical force or organic being, its atoms will still be ripped apart by a nuclear explosion.
Kuje31 04-28-04, 04:24 AM	Originally posted by Necrontyr A few reasons why Faerun would not win (but I'm not nessacarily saying Earth would. 1. I've heard all about magic taking out Earth cities but how the bloody hell would magic work on Earth? There's no Mystra and thus no Weave. Even if Earth has a natural spell-producing 'thing' then it wouldn't be Faerun's Weave so FR spells wouldn't work. The same way magic works on the planes or on Krynn or on Greyhawk where the Weave doesn't exist. Magic just does. :) Mystra doesn't have power over the magic on the planes except in her own plane. So it doesn't matter if she isn't on Earth either because magic would still work there.... At least the Earth of D&D.
mortellan 04-28-04, 04:47 AM	Its still a viable tactic. In how many FR novels where alchemist fire used? But alchemyst fire still works. Only because it hasn't appeared in a novel doesn't mean it doesn't work. I didn't say that. You totally missed my point. My meaning is if the FR novels went the way gamers play it, it would be fubar. Now who is thinking gamerly here? 1st. You do not get any boni to detect an invisible mage when he casts a spell. 2nd. You can use your move action after your standart action so he can move after firing his spell. That's not gamerly, that's game-masterly. I haven't been concocting munchkin schemes, I have been trying to debunk them. Now as to the moving before or after actions in invisibility that's square. The spell effects are still visible once they 'leave' the mage thus giving cues to his position. There is no 'bonus' its just a direction to fire. Anyhoo, the mage better well move after he's given up his position, I think that's a given for any D&D battle. Divination works 1 week in advance. Read the spell. Just did and why yes it is one week in advance. With a maximum 90% chance accuracy(prolly better than CIA percentages). What is interesting to me is the divination, 4th level by the way, gives a "short phrase or cryptic rhyme or poem." Now even with an accurate reading that couldn't reveal the position of each and every nuke's position or where they may strike(many pardons for perpetuating the nuke angle). As with augury, multiple divinations about the same topic by the same caster use the same dice result as the first divination spell and yield the same answer each time. So you are looking at mass diviners who each have to spot a silo location or battlegroup, or missile trajectory in flight, etc. And they got a week to act on it, or the results could change. So this fact at least makes me relieved that the gods and their portfolio sense hasn't been watered down by a simple 4th level spell.
Cunning Linguist 04-28-04, 07:04 AM	3. Whoever said that nukes would beat magic is right. Nuclear weapons work on an atomic level. I like to think of it Matrix style, magic bends the rules of physics but are still made of the same basic building blocks of life. So be it a wall, magical force or organic being, its atoms will still be ripped apart by a nuclear explosion. It's quite clear you don't understand nuclear weapons. They don't destroy other atoms then the atoms that exist within the plutonic or uranium core. And they don't even destroy these atoms, they just split them into lesser weight atoms, this releses energy, the same type of energy that normal TNT bombs make. They also have radiation and such, but there is nothing in a nuclear bomb that would destroy a wall of force any more then a Hellball would destroy a wall of force.
mortellan 04-28-04, 07:31 AM	there is nothing in a nuclear bomb that would destroy a wall of force any more then a Hellball would destroy a wall of force. I'll agree there, altho a wall is just disrupting the damage aspect on one side of the wall, something still has to get blown up. And once it goes down there is still radiation to deal with. And here's a question I need answered, would a wall of force(permanent one) that sealed a room with no exits or ventilation block air thus suffocating anyone inside? Kinda like with those force beads in the DMG that envelope the target. The reason I'm asking is to be truly effective the wall of force needs to completely surround the town, village, city it is protecting from a nuke, because otherwise the damage will get by partially and even if they avoid damage initially, those protected will need to teleport/dig away before their air runs out or have a magical air and water source while they remain inside until the radiation is gone. On a side thought, it would be cool to see a nuclear missile go off that is encased in a force globe. Would the energy fizzle out or would it still be released violently once the spell ended? And could the force effect be moved before it does?!
Derren S. 04-28-04, 08:02 AM	Originally posted by Necrontyr A2. Our technology would be incomprehensible to the vast majority of Faerunians and while we are unfamiliar with magic (at least in recent times) we do (or will) understand that it exists. Thus they wouldn't know what a nuke or missile or gun or plane looked like and at first would take them out, thus giving Earth the element of suprise. Even Elminster wouldn't understand a computer (at least not at first and with an invasion going on he wouldn't have time to study it). Wrong. Lantan already has rennesaince muskets and pistols, so guns are not unknown in teh FR. The rest can easily be identified by Gond Clerics with Wieldskill. 3. Whoever said that nukes would beat magic is right. Nuclear weapons work on an atomic level. I like to think of it Matrix style, magic bends the rules of physics but are still made of the same basic building blocks of life. So be it a wall, magical force or organic being, its atoms will still be ripped apart by a nuclear explosion. Wrong again. Magic doesn't have to follow natural laws while technology still has. A nuke can produce a massive explosion, but a Wall of Force is unnaffected by mundane force so the nuke would be blocked. A WoF has unlimited hardness and no hit points. It has no atoms which can be ripped appart. I didn't say that. You totally missed my point. My meaning is if the FR novels went the way gamers play it, it would be fubar. The way gamers play is more true to the FR than the novels. Novels tend to ignore many D&D spells and possibilities because they would ruin the story the author wants to write. So you are looking at mass diviners who each have to spot a silo location or battlegroup, or missile trajectory in flight, etc. And they got a week to act on it, or the results could change. So this fact at least makes me relieved that the gods and their portfolio sense hasn't been watered down by a simple 4th level spell./quote] With that many Int 30+ persons in the FR they would easily be able to descript the information gained by divinations. And you only have to check when and possible which regions nukes will be brought to faerun. 2 Diviners are enough for that. The rest can be communed or be searched with locate object. Just Divine "When will nukes be brought to Faerun" and "Through which portals wil this nukes be brought on faerun". Thats all you need to divine.[/b] I'm asking is to be truly effective the wall of force needs to completely surround the town, village, city it is protecting from a nuke, because otherwise the damage will get by partially The WoF only have to block the initial blast. Clerics and Druids can clean the radiation afterwards.
Ramius_Mordale 04-28-04, 09:07 AM	First note I'd like to point out: I said humor me on the nondetection magic. And if you believe that then no fighter or non magic user period can use a magic item. It doesn't take a magic user to figure out how to use a magic item. Sure it speeds up the process a lot but over time you can figure out how to use a magic item. Secondly, everything has matter in magic its just magic bends the rules, it doesn't make new ones. Magic allows things that normally would be impossible possible. And their aren't that many great diviners out there. I thought the greatest one died before, during or after the Fall of Myth Drannor??? (Correct me if I'm wrong on that) Now matter in a Wall of Force makes it indistructable by mundane items. Just one thing I want to point out a Nuclear weapon isn't mundane in the slightest. I don't think I can buy it out of my own pocket, can you? And yes Nukes don't destroy atoms they alter atoms. Plus a Wall of Force is just a Wall. Even if it did stop part of the blast the blast would go over and around it. Sure it would make a safe zone from the blast if you were right up next to it, but after so far it would just continue on its distructive path. Thirdly I said nukes were a last restort weapon and would only be used if wizards used meteor swarm on an Earth city. Plus, one thing I want to point out. Where is the humanity on either side? No side is taking prisoners, no side is feeling guilt or fear? If you want to make an arguement on War you have to put in the emotional element. And if Nukes were used it would be basically Earth's way of saying, 'Alright, we hurt you, you hurt us. Now we are suing for peace.' Continuing on the emotion aspect, I would say a lot of the things going on have been more evil then good ways to fight. Wizards do have ethics and morals. Just like our troops have a concious. Your not just playing Risk here with pieces on a board they are real human beings. Think of them as such when you make your arguments. Sure many of the goodly races wouldn't care about killing orcs and known evil races without mercy but killing an invading human army? Especially one that will probably give quarter to people who surrender to them and they take prisoner. Now I'm not saying evil people wouldn't be this ruthless, but Earth has seen its fair share of tyrants in its own history. And good people/nations don't agree with such brutal methods, even probably good nations of FR, and I think most of you wouldn't either. Killing the innocent is never alright, so as long as Earth forces aren't trying to murder civilians why would the Wizards start throwing out ninth level spells at them like meteor swarm at our cities? Thats not harming the military thats harming civilians, innocent bystanders. Yes true innocent people do get caught in the cross fire but usually aren't targeted purposely. But here is one thing I want to note as a side thought. Why doesn't Earth just find one of the unknown continents and colonize a force there? They learn all of FRs secrets then try and learn magic in order to combat it. Probably secretly deal with people and learn more that way, then when their ready conquer Faerun. Usually, the first rule before engaging the enemy is to have as much intelligence on them as possible. But hey thats just my opinion on that. And to wrap it up, Earth would win if it can hit hard and fast. They need to isolate, and I say that loosely, the nations and slow communication. To where they rely on nothing but magic to send messages back and forth. They would have to damage the economy as a whole all over Faerun to keep them from raising armies. This means destroying known trade routes and infrustructure of every major nation in FR. If it becomes long term, FR would win. It would probably beat back the invading force through the portals then make a small counter attack and sue for peace. After all Earth is as unknown to them as Forgotten Realms is to us. (And I don't care what you say not every wizard has made a trek over to Earth. I think Elminster and maybe a few other people have but they are extremely rare). After which both sides would have a truce and open up a dialogue. Then trade would commence between the two worlds and businesses would start setting up in both worlds. Then you got a universal trade pact going on. :P And that would be that.:D Well in my opinion of events. Now pass me another Ale I got drinking to catch up on. *Tosses two silver on the counter and grabs his mug*:);)
Derren S. 04-28-04, 09:51 AM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale And their aren't that many great diviners out there. I thought the greatest one died before, during or after the Fall of Myth Drannor??? (Correct me if I'm wrong on that) Haalura is ruled by an epic diviner and therefore should have many strong diviners. Also nearly every nation has them. Divinations are just too usefull. Now matter in a Wall of Force makes it indistructable by mundane items. Just one thing I want to point out a Nuclear weapon isn't mundane in the slightest. I don't think I can buy it out of my own pocket, can you? And yes Nukes don't destroy atoms they alter atoms. Plus a Wall of Force is just a Wall. A nuke is mundane. Its equal to a very huge pile of TNT. The methode how the explosion is made doesn't matter its the same explosion as a C4 block would do only larger. A Wall of Force on the other hand is no Wall. It is a barrier made out of pure energy with no matter at all. so as long as Earth forces aren't trying to murder civilians why would the Wizards start throwing out ninth level spells at them like meteor swarm at our cities? Thats not harming the military thats harming civilians, innocent bystanders. Yes true innocent people do get caught in the cross fire but usually aren't targeted purposely. Because high level wizards don't have to answer anyone. When the Earthlings want to kill civilians they need soldeirs who do it. And that all those soldiers agree with this is a very slim chance. Faerun on the other hand only needs one mage for this. And Beeing like Larloch, Dargotoht and other undead have a rather low morality. But here is one thing I want to note as a side thought. Why doesn't Earth just find one of the unknown continents and colonize a force there? They learn all of FRs secrets then try and learn magic in order to combat it. Probably secretly deal with people and learn more that way, then when their ready conquer Faerun. Usually, the first rule before engaging the enemy is to have as much intelligence on them as possible. But hey thats just my opinion on that. Because there are no unknown continents near faerun and when you want to study faerun you have to be in faerun and that draws attention of suddenly people appear with high technology, a foreign laguage and no understanding of magic. And to wrap it up, Earth would win if it can hit hard and fast. They need to isolate, and I say that loosely, the nations and slow communication. To where they rely on nothing but magic to send messages back and forth. They would have to damage the economy as a whole all over Faerun to keep them from raising armies. This means destroying known trade routes and infrustructure of every major nation in FR. That wouldn't help earth. The Nations aren't the one who are dangerous (Except magical nations like Haalura, Theyr, Shadowar). The armies the nations of faerun can easily be defeated be earth technology. The high level people are the problem and many of them don't work for nations. After all Earth is as unknown to them as Forgotten Realms is to us. Yes, but the information gathering of Faerun is more effective than what earth can do. Commune, Divinations, Speak with Death, Tongues and Detect Thoughts all help in gathering information about earth very quickly and unlike earthlings faerunian wizards can move very freely arround earth thanks to their spells.
mortellan 04-28-04, 10:06 AM	Haalura is ruled by an epic diviner and therefore should have many strong diviners. Also nearly every nation has them. Divinations are just too usefull. And....why hasn't every prophesized disaster or evil-event in Toril been divined one week in advance and averted? This is starting to remind me of Minority Report. A Wall of Force on the other hand is no Wall. It is a barrier made out of pure energy with no matter at all. Energy has mass. If it is no matter at all what is a disentigrate spell destroying or a sphere of annihilation annihilating when it destroys a WoF? A WoF must be pure magic force which has some-crazy zero-matter substance to it.
Derren S. 04-28-04, 10:14 AM	Originally posted by mortellan And....why hasn't every prophesized disaster or evil-event in Toril been divined one week in advance and averted? This is starting to remind me of Minority Report. Because if they would, book authors couldn't write good stories anymore? Energy has mass. Who said that? Einstein? Could Einstein cast spells and understood magic? Spells can't be explained with science because they don't follow the natural sciences. If it is no matter at all what is a disentigrate spell destroying or a sphere of annihilation annihilating when it destroys a WoF? A WoF must be pure magic force which has some-crazy zero-matter substance to it. A wall of force is just taht a wall out of force. No matter. Desintegration is destroying the force, something no technical device can do. You are a good example why earthlying can't learn magic veryy fast. They would wasting there time to search for a scientific explanation first before even considering that it is magic.
mortellan 04-28-04, 10:25 AM	Because if they would, book authors couldn't write good stories anymore?So the novels -are- more true to FR than gamers. Otherwise the stories wouldn't sell unless they catered to their way of playing more. You are a good example why earthlying can't learn magic veryy fast. They would wasting there time to search for a scientific explanation first before even considering that it is magic. I was just correcting you. You said a WoF was pure energy, not pure magic force. There has to be a difference you see. Snort.
Derren S. 04-28-04, 10:28 AM	Originally posted by mortellan So the novels -are- more true to FR than gamers. Otherwise the stories wouldn't sell unless they catered to their way of playing more. Not really. FR is first and foremost a RPG gaming world and not a novel world. It is primary designed to be attractive to players, not to have interesting novel lines.
mortellan 04-28-04, 10:37 AM	Not really. FR is first and foremost a RPG gaming world and not a novel world. It is primary designed to be attractive to players, not to have interesting novel lines. I really want to believe that. But if the novels don't move the official RPG material in every shape and form then why is discussing the novel line so taboo on these boards?
Helmo 04-28-04, 10:41 AM	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derren S. [B] A nuke is mundane. Its equal to a very huge pile of TNT. The methode how the explosion is made doesn't matter its the same explosion as a C4 block would do only larger. A Wall of Force on the other hand is no Wall. It is a barrier made out of pure energy with no matter at all.[b] I wouldn“t like to begin discussing about nuclear weapons (I“m far from expert and this is not the point), but just one thing: even if a Wall Of Force could stop a nuclear explosion, it could not prevent people from being harmed by the most dangerous thing: radiance.
Helmo 04-28-04, 10:43 AM	Sorry, I wanted to say radiation.:D
Derren S. 04-28-04, 10:45 AM	No, but Remove Disease or a modified Protection from Energy could together with Hallow Also a nuke is big enough to warrant the use of a wish or miracle to remove the radiation.
Gemstone 04-28-04, 01:05 PM	Actualy, I think "remove disease" won't cure radiation damage, since it's not a disease, its more like a damage... perhaps Cure Light Wounds would however...
Mirtek 04-28-04, 03:52 PM	Originally posted by Necrontyr 1. I've heard all about magic taking out Earth cities but how the bloody hell would magic work on Earth? There's no Mystra and thus no Weave. Even if Earth has a natural spell-producing 'thing' then it wouldn't be Faerun's Weave so FR spells wouldn't work. LIke already said: Magic would work. Magic work on other worlds where there is no weave and works on the planes, where there is no weave. Last but not least: Elminster, Mordenkainen, and others have already visited out Earth and their magic worked here.Originally posted by Necrontyr 2. Our technology would be incomprehensible to the vast majority of Faerunians and while we are unfamiliar with magic (at least in recent times) we do (or will) understand that it exists. Thus they wouldn't know what a nuke or missile or gun or plane looked like and at first would take them out, thus giving Earth the element of suprise. Even Elminster wouldn't understand a computer (at least not at first and with an invasion going on he wouldn't have time to study it). Actually, if you want to be really squeamish, it's our tech that doesn't work on Faerun. One of the major assumptions of this thread was that our tech would work, but going with the rules, it simply wouldn't. Don't know when this first appeared, but 3e didn't change it so it's still valid. E.G. it's in the 2e FRCS. The physical laws of the FR are slightly out of touch with the physical rules of Earth and technology brought from Earth to Faerun stops working.Originally posted by Necrontyr 3. Whoever said that nukes would beat magic is right. Nuclear weapons work on an atomic level. I like to think of it Matrix style, magic bends the rules of physics but are still made of the same basic building blocks of life. So be it a wall, magical force or organic being, its atoms will still be ripped apart by a nuclear explosion. Actually no. Magic doesn't bend the rules of physics, magic exists completly outside of the rules of physics. All the most basic and unchangeable rules of physics we think to know do not matter to the magical and supernatural. Just take a look at the Planes and any rules of physics go straight out of the window. Fire eternally buring neither needing nor consuming any air or other fuel! A infinite ocean without botton or top and yet without pressure!
JoeX 04-30-04, 12:16 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. A nuke is mundane. Its equal to a very huge pile of TNT. The methode how the explosion is made doesn't matter its the same explosion as a C4 block would do only larger. A Wall of Force on the other hand is no Wall. It is a barrier made out of pure energy with no matter at all.[b] A nuke is a weapon designed to take out a city wich is too big to fit in a wall of force. So the nuke will still be able to do his job. That wouldn't help earth. The Nations aren't the one who are dangerous (Except magical nations like Haalura, Theyr, Shadowar). The armies the nations of faerun can easily be defeated be earth technology. The high level people are the problem and many of them don't work for nations.[b] Some one can wonder of these nations still exist since they aren't unable to control even theirs own territories. Earthlings or no earthlings.
Derren S. 04-30-04, 12:19 PM	Originally posted by JoeX A nuke is a weapon designed to take out a city wich is too big to fit in a wall of force. So the nuke will still be able to do his job. It all depends how close the WoF is to the nuke. Some one can wonder of these nations still exist since they aren't unable to control even theirs own territories. Earthlings or no earthlings. Because most mages like to live in a peacefull country compared to a state of civil war.
JoeX 05-05-04, 07:49 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. It all depends how close the WoF is to the nuke.[b] FROM the SRD about wall of force The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10- foot square per level. it's a flat wall not a sphere you cannot use to completely encircle an atomic explosion. Meaning the explosion will go over the edges of the wall like a fireball goes around a corner. And an atomic explosion as an area of effect measured in miles unlike a fireball. Because most mages like to live in a peacefull country compared to a state of civil war. War what war .... Wars are between equals or at least when every faction has a reasonable chances to win. A war between a mage enough strong to fight a modern army and medieval kingdom is like a war between UE and the principality of Monaco. Nobody fights with this kind of odds. A simple show of force and the ubber mage will have all that it want. Nobody will mess with these kind of powers
Another Gnome 05-05-04, 09:15 AM	it's a flat wall not a sphere you cannot use to completely encircle an atomic explosion. Meaning the explosion will go over the edges of the wall like a fireball goes around a corner. Oh right, WoF was changed in 3.5. Regardless, forcecage will do the trick.
mortellan 05-05-04, 09:39 AM	Regardless, forcecage will do the trick. Do what trick? the solid forcecage is 10'x10' and lasts 2hrs/lv This means either whoever is lucky enough to be trapped inside will survive the blast OR if somehow the warhead/explosion was encapsulated in time(if the creature/object can't fit in the 10x10 area the spell fails), then when the spell wears off you still have to deal with the explosion contained within the forcewalls. The energy won't dissipate. If it can't get in it can't get out either.
Derren S. 05-05-04, 09:49 AM	Why wouldn't the energy dissipate? The blast will go of, hits a wall, bounces back and forth while becoming weaker and weaker and then simply vanish. And as I have shown before, locating nukes is very easy with magic. Earth should consider them lucky if they manage to even manage to launch one before it is destroyed.
mortellan 05-05-04, 10:00 AM	Why wouldn't the energy dissipate? The blast will go of, hits a wall, bounces back and forth while becoming weaker and weaker and then simply vanish. Vanish to where? The Positive Energy Plane? Nukes aren't magic by the earlier arguments so that nuclear energy is contained by force magic until released again. Then again, maybe forcecages aren't totally inpenetrable. otherwise whatever creature was caught would suffocate once all their oxygen supply converted into carbon dioxide and had no where to vent out.
Another Gnome 05-05-04, 12:45 PM	The energy would likely disappear and that's it. An impenetratable force effect would either completely absorb the energy and take it with it upon vanishing itself by the end of the spell duration (wherever it goes at that point), completely reflect the energy back, or absorb some and reflect the rest of it. Reflection theories are rather weak since the spell description says nothing about any kind of reflection happening. Assuming the laws of physics have anything to do with force effects whatsoever, most of the energy would be absorbed upon impact, making it effectively disappear as far as the known multiverse is concerned. As for suffocation, the rules say nothing against that happening. Wall of force stops breath weapons and all other magical effects not specifically mentioned to break through or bring down the wall, suggesting that no gases pass through the wall. And when it comes to radiation, while it does say that gaze attacks pass the wall (suggesting that other forms of electromagnetic radiation would likewise pass), it also says the wall blocks all forms of damage. It's debatable if gamma radiation is a form of damage, but considering there are spells specifically saying they harm things by ultraviolet light, one can relatively safely claim that visible light passes only because it's not a damaging form of radiation and gaze attacks cause a psychometabolical effect within the victim instead of carrying the effect along the visible wavelength of light.
JoeX 05-05-04, 01:05 PM	Originally posted by Another Gnome it's a flat wall not a sphere you cannot use to completely encircle an atomic explosion. Meaning the explosion will go over the edges of the wall like a fireball goes around a corner. Oh right, WoF was changed in 3.5. Regardless, forcecage will do the trick. No. Forcecage fails if the object is longer than 10'. All ICBM and cruise missiles are much longer than that. You can use it to shield yourself but not to catch the missile
JoeX 05-05-04, 01:13 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. And as I have shown before, locating nukes is very easy with magic. Earth should consider them lucky if they manage to even manage to launch one before it is destroyed. first a Wizard simply cannot have an idea of what a nuke can do until it's too late. second if you are speaking about Locate object it as only a range of 1200 feet ; choose a random place on the USA map and you have only 1 chance on 10'000 to be enough near a nuke to detect it. third even if you know where nukes are you need teleport to reach them in time. There are thousond of Nukes in the world and the wiz can teleport only a few times per days.
Derren S. 05-05-04, 01:30 PM	1. Speak with Dead or interrogate captives to learn about their weapons and you know about nukes. 2. Divination, Commune and you have a very clear idea where the nukes are. The rest can be done with locate objects. 3. Only the nukes on Faerun are a problem, not the nukes on earth.
Cherrn 05-05-04, 06:42 PM	Assuming that you read at least some of this thread you guys would know that there is to be no nukes! :rolleyes:
mortellan 05-06-04, 01:41 AM	Originally posted by Another Gnome The energy would likely disappear and that's it. An impenetratable force effect would either completely absorb the energy and take it with it upon vanishing itself by the end of the spell duration (wherever it goes at that point), completely reflect the energy back, or absorb some and reflect the rest of it. Reflection theories are rather weak since the spell description says nothing about any kind of reflection happening. Assuming the laws of physics have anything to do with force effects whatsoever, most of the energy would be absorbed upon impact, making it effectively disappear as far as the known multiverse is concerned. Valid point. A force effect would in a sense then absorb kinetic energy as well, ala someone trying to bullrush it or a dragon flying face first into one. If not, I postulate for fun that a forcecaged nuclear blast would create a mini-sun. If Gnomes' theory about radiation due to gaze attacks is correct, then it may provide warmth in addition to 'normal' light while being harmless while the force field is up.
Chronomage 05-06-04, 02:39 AM	Oh ok, I'm bored, I'll post. Read the first 4 pages but beyond that HELL nO. Correction of points: Vampires do NOT have to sleep. Not in D&D. They just have to avoid direct sunlight. Faerun wins, a slow battle that at first starts as army versus army: Faerun's army falls to massive firepower that once concentrated on a mass doesn't care about Invis, than guerilla warfare starts (of course, the US is already drilling for Oil) key leaders in command are turned, either through blackmail by divination, charm/dominate spell, or assassination and replacement; undead begin infiltrating the army and shadows are far more deadly than vampires (Case in point: Takes a magic weapon to harm a shadow, not just damage reduction like a vampire) spellcasters begin casting darkness spells (or spell like abilities if drow are allowed, in which case crap) turning themselves invisible, and casting spells that make life unbearable generally (how many cloudkills do you think all the wizards of Faerun could cast?). The real death dealer is the shadow, of course. With create spawn and spellcasters constantly providing it was darkness, no human army could stand against it. Course, you wonder why this hasn't destroyed Faerun (answer: not every spellcaster is united right now).
JoeX 05-06-04, 02:52 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. 1. Speak with Dead or interrogate captives to learn about their weapons and you know about nukes. 2. Divination, Commune and you have a very clear idea where the nukes are. The rest can be done with locate objects. Comune gives you only yes or no answer it's useless to locate something that is situated in an unknow location. Divination can provide you with a useful piece of advice in reply to a question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity that is to occur within one week. You can use to know if nukes will be used in the future not where they are. 3. Only the nukes on Faerun are a problem, not the nukes on earth. if carrier can go to Faerun so could atomic sub and strategic bombers.
JoeX 05-06-04, 03:00 AM	Originally posted by Chronomage Faerun wins, a slow battle that at first starts as army versus army: Faerun's army falls to massive firepower that once concentrated on a mass doesn't care about Invis, than guerilla warfare starts (of course, the US is already drilling for Oil) key leaders in command are turned, either through blackmail by divination, charm/dominate spell, or assassination and replacement; undead begin infiltrating the army and shadows are far more deadly than vampires Finally somebody who use the brain ;) . Personally I would suggest Faerun strategist to forget the shadows and stick with charms and theirs likes. After all you cannot fight the resistance if you don't know that there is a resistance first.
mortellan 05-06-04, 03:16 AM	After all you cannot fight the resistance if you don't know that there is a resistance first. It may be semantics, but if you use the term resistance then Earth would have 'won' as far the argument goes. Afterwards what happens during the occupation, well we all know about that...
Derren S. 05-06-04, 03:22 AM	Originally posted by JoeX Comune gives you only yes or no answer it's useless to locate something that is situated in an unknow location. Divination can provide you with a useful piece of advice in reply to a question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity that is to occur within one week. You can use to know if nukes will be used in the future not where they are. Commune: Is there a nuke in Cormyr ? Yes/No Is there a nuke in west Cormyr Yes/No Down to a small enough region to search it with locate object. Divination: Will there be a nuke brought to Faerun within the next week? Will the nuke be brought through the portal in Thay? if carrier can go to Faerun so could atomic sub and strategic bombers. And as the carrier and bomber the nuke would get quickly destroyed. Or for the total overkill: Wish/Miracle "I wish that every nucler weapon which is currently on Faerun becomes useless"(or "planeshifted back to earth" if you like this more). As unatended objects they don't have many defenses against spells.
mortellan 05-06-04, 03:30 AM	Commune: Is there a nuke in Cormyr ? Yes/No Is there a nuke in west Cormyr Yes/No Divination: Will there be a nuke brought to Faerun within the next week? Commune is stronger than Divination isn't it?
JoeX 05-06-04, 05:57 AM	Originally posted by JoeX Finally somebody who use the brain ;) . Personally I would suggest Faerun strategist to forget the shadows and stick with charms and theirs likes. After all you cannot fight the resistance if you don't know that there is a resistance first. Maybe the captives becomes the captors ...
Derren S. 05-06-04, 06:11 AM	Originally posted by mortellan Commune is stronger than Divination isn't it? Commune gives you a excet yes/no answer while divination a advice to a event. But the event can be up to 1 week in the future. And when asking a yes/no question in a divination, the only real ansewers it can give are yes/no. Maybe a riddle, but with the limited scope of the answers a very easy one.
JoeX 05-06-04, 06:13 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. Commune: Is there a nuke in Cormyr ? Yes/No Is there a nuke in west Cormyr Yes/No Down to a small enough region to search it with locate object. Not a chance the area of a Locate Object is 1200 feet. It will takes thousands of casting to cover west Cormyr. Divination: Will there be a nuke brought to Faerun within the next week? Will the nuke be brought through the portal in Thay?[b] You still don't know exactly when it wil happen and what if you have to deal with hundreds of missiles coming from different portals at the same time ? [QUOTE Or for the total overkill: Wish/Miracle "I wish that every nucler weapon which is currently on Faerun becomes useless"(or "planeshifted back to earth" if you like this more). As unatended objects they don't have many defenses against spells. [/QUOTE] Wish is not that powerfull .... Otherwise somebody would have already wished orcs, goblinoids away a long time ago.
Cunning Linguist 05-06-04, 03:32 PM	Again I have to step in with the red card. NO NUKES! This was all about invading Faerun, not destroying it. If we step over that premis, then we can bring in the rule about gods intervening in everything, or that teck does not work in Faerun.
Derren S. 05-06-04, 04:01 PM	Originally posted by JoeX Not a chance the area of a Locate Object is 1200 feet. It will takes thousands of casting to cover west Cormyr. Thats why I said down to. West Cormyr, province, shire, city. The rest can be done by a wind walkning cleric with locate object. Noticing a earthling army camp isn't very hard. And they won't just leave nukes in the open when the enemy has a seemingly supernatural ability to find even their best hidden forces. You still don't know exactly when it wil happen and what if you have to deal with hundreds of missiles coming from different portals at the same time ? With Divination they can know what will happen. Divinations are not limited to Yes/No questions. The missiles will harmlessly explode when hitting a WoF errected in front of the portal. The divination can be used not only for nukes but for every form of attack. With a 1 week advance warning its easy to get defenses in place. (Not even mentioning that shooting missiles through a portal will completly confuse the guidiance system of those missiles and they would not hit anything.) And with more powerfull divinations you can divine the time of an attack up to the hour. So earth doesn't have much time before ambushed. Wish is not that powerfull .... Otherwise somebody would have already wished orcs, goblinoids away a long time ago. Orcs are living creatures, not unattended objects. Unattended objects have quite a few less protections against spells then attended ones. Also how many nukes will there be brought to faerun at a time? Mybe a dozent and that number is small enough to affect them all with a wish. Or do you think wish is not powerfull enough to planeshift 12 big barrels which aren't carried by anyone to the plane they originally came from?
JoeX 05-07-04, 02:50 AM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Again I have to step in with the red card. NO NUKES! This was all about invading Faerun, not destroying it. After Hiroshima Japan wasn't destroyed ..... it surrendered
Derren S. 05-07-04, 03:03 AM	But it would take much more than one nuke to make the FR surrendering and then nothing would be left to conquer. And, when earth uses nukes, FR uses epic mages and shadows which are in a way stronger than nukes. Earth has no chance against them.
Ruler of All Beer Mugs 05-07-04, 04:07 AM	Diseases introduced from Europe into the Americas killed more native Americans than the Europeans did. The Soviet Union mass produced hundreds of tons of bioweapons. If a few hundred aircraft with a few tons of bioweapons on board each one flew over Faerun and spread multiple diseases, most human or near human life would end. After their worshippers die, the gods will be weakened (with a few exceptions, such as Talona). THEN it is time to send in the troops (after they get immunized, of course). All they need to worry about now are the dragons, demons, devils, undead, direbeasts, fey, elementals, celestials, giants, etc.
JoeX 05-07-04, 04:07 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. Thats why I said down to. West Cormyr, province, shire, city. The rest can be done by a wind walkning cleric with locate object. Nobody brings nukes into a city , these weapons are kept in remote locations until used. A nuke 'arrive' on a city as a missile warhead just a fraction of second before exploding. Try locate it without points of references. Plus how many shires and province you have in Comyr. You can need hundreds of yes or no question just to locate ONE warhead Noticing a earthling army camp isn't very hard. And they won't just leave nukes in the open when the enemy has a seemingly supernatural ability to find even their best hidden forces. Usualy nukes are carried on sub and airplanes until used not in army camp. All mobiles location that makes yours Divination and Comune tactics totaly useless. With Divination they can know what will happen. Divinations are not limited to Yes/No questions. Divination answer with short phrase. It will warn you about a planned attack but it won't give you the details of the enemy batle plan. The missiles will harmlessly explode when hitting a WoF errected in front of the portal. First we are speaking abouts portals so big that Carriers can go through them. Nobody can creat a Wof so big. Second Wof is up for only 1 round per level , 2 minutes at level 20. Earth need only fire one missile every fire 5 minutes to exaust the enemy defenses. Third you must be near the portal to cast Wof making the spellcaster a naturaly target for coventionl warfare. The divination can be used not only for nukes but for every form of attack. With a 1 week advance warning its easy to get defenses in place. (Not even mentioning that shooting missiles through a portal will completly confuse the guidiance system of those missiles and they would not hit anything.) Show me the rules abot shooting missiles through a portal otherwise that is only yours factless opinion. And with more powerfull divinations you can divine the time of an attack up to the hour. So earth doesn't have much time before ambushed.[b] If you ambush a totaly superior force you are bound to retire when they begin to counterattack. This is how guerrilla works. Unlucly for you once you retires you leave the portal open for a nuclear bomber to fly through it and you are done. Orcs are living creatures, not unattended objects. Unattended objects have quite a few less protections against spells then attended ones. The differences between an orc and an unattended object is that an orc get a save. But to save against a wish (9 level spell) the orcs needs a 20. Meaning that each wish will kill 95% of all living orcs at the time of casting. If that was possibles orcs or similars creatures would be exterminate in no time. Also how many nukes will there be brought to faerun at a time? All that are neede to accomplish the job . That's the beuty of the moder world. MASS PRODUCTION Or do you think wish is not powerfull enough to planeshift 12 big barrels which aren't carried by anyone to the plane they originally came from? Nukes are not barels but warhead carried on airplanes , subs and missiles. In the first case they are not unattended and in the second a computer guided missiles should be considered a CONSTRUCT not an object.
JoeX 05-07-04, 04:20 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. But it would take much more than one nuke to make the FR surrendering and then nothing would be left to conquer. The Japanese army where the only army who had mor deads than prisoners. But it took only 2 warheads to bring them down not the total destruction of the country And, when earth uses nukes, FR uses epic mages and shadows which are in a way stronger than nukes. Earth has no chance against them. :confused: Shadows ?? Summoned monster are active for only a few rounds how do you destroy a city with that
mortellan 05-07-04, 04:23 AM	And, when earth uses nukes, FR uses epic mages and shadows which are in a way stronger than nukes. Earth has no chance against them. Backwards. I believe the nukes were off the table pages ago, until the subject of epic mages and shadows destroying cities single-handedly were pushed. A modern military would interpret that singular show of power, especially when it couldn't be combatted conventionally, as nothing less than a last ditch nuclear-equivalent situation. So there is no way nukes happen before magic and undead are used. *takes his red card and sits on the bench*
Chronomage 05-07-04, 04:37 AM	Originally posted by mortellan It may be semantics, but if you use the term resistance then Earth would have 'won' as far the argument goes. Afterwards what happens during the occupation, well we all know about that... Questionable. The French lost their war but it might have been more accurately called a battle, seeing as how we won WW2.
Derren S. 05-07-04, 04:40 AM	Originally posted by JoeX Nobody brings nukes into a city , these weapons are kept in remote locations until used. A nuke 'arrive' on a city as a missile warhead just a fraction of second before exploding. Try locate it without points of references. Plus how many shires and province you have in Comyr. You can need hundreds of yes or no question just to locate ONE warhead 100 years? lol. You need maybe 1 day to locate a nuke/caster. No points of references? Lakes, Mountains and other natural reference points. Or in a radius of 100 miles arround portal X. North of portal X,... The rest can be done with locate object and a cleric who flies with wind walk over the area. Usualy nukes are carried on sub and airplanes until used not in army camp. All mobiles location that makes yours Divination and Comune tactics totaly useless. No, because you know 1 week in advance where the nukes are. And with teleport you can move to this location within seconds. Divination answer with short phrase. It will warn you about a planned attack but it won't give you the details of the enemy batle plan. Sigh. "With what weapons the enemy wil attack", "how many soldiers will attack", "Will they use tanks, planes, etc. Voila, battle plan. First we are speaking abouts portals so big that Carriers can go through them. Nobody can creat a Wof so big. Second Wof is up for only 1 round per level , 2 minutes at level 20. Earth need only fire one missile every fire 5 minutes to exaust the enemy defenses. Third you must be near the portal to cast Wof making the spellcaster a naturaly target for coventionl warfare. Easy solution. Two WoF. And they can be made permanent. And a spellcaster is well protected against nearly anything earth can throw against him. Show me the rules abot shooting missiles through a portal otherwise that is only yours factless opinion. Show you me the rules about shooting long range missiles. They don't exist. If you ambush a totaly superior force you are bound to retire when they begin to counterattack. This is how guerrilla works. Unlucly for you once you retires you leave the portal open for a nuclear bomber to fly through it and you are done. No, the bomber will be destroyes by the defeses which were set in place 1 week in advance. And a prepared squad of spellcaster is in no way weaker than an modern army. Thy can wipe the floor with thousands of soldiers and war machines in seconds. Earth forces have no time to counterattack. And even if, they can't harm prepared high level spellcaster. The differences between an orc and an unattended object is that an orc get a save. But to save against a wish (9 level spell) the orcs needs a 20. Meaning that each wish will kill 95% of all living orcs at the time of casting. If that was possibles orcs or similars creatures would be exterminate in no time. Not only that. Living creatures have other advantages over inanimated objects, otherwise Shatter would be an instant kill spell. Also the number is also a factor. There are millions of orcs on Faerun while there will be about only 12 nukes. All that are neede to accomplish the job . That's the beuty of the moder world. MASS PRODUCTION Unless of cours wizards destroy this mass producing places which is easy for them. And spellcasters can destroy more tanks a day than dozens of factories are able to produce. Besides an epic mage can also mass produce. Nukes are not barels but warhead carried on airplanes , subs and missiles. In the first case they are not unattended and in the second a computer guided missiles should be considered a CONSTRUCT not an object. A unattended object carried by a machine is unattended. Or do you say barrels who are on top of a wagon don't get damaged when a dragon breaths on them? And unless its magical it cannot be a construct. A nuke is not different than a barre full of alchemist fire. Ok, other wish tactic. "I wish the next nuclear weapon which will be brought to Faerun wil detonate 1 hour before it leaves earth."
Derren S. 05-07-04, 04:45 AM	The Japanese army where the only army who had mor deads than prisoners. But it took only 2 warheads to bring them down not the total destruction of the country Japan was already destroyed and would have surrendered within weeks. The nukes were only dropped to show of the new weapons. Also, japan is a country where Faerun is a continent where many countries have nuke equivalent powers themself. Shadows ?? Summoned monster are active for only a few rounds how do you destroy a city with that Create Greater Undead. This Shoadow stays. Send it through a portal (best in a big metropolis) on earth and earth is done for as they can't battle Shadows (or any uncorporal creature) while they are multiplying fast.
mortellan 05-07-04, 04:48 AM	Originally posted by Chronomage Questionable. The French lost their war but it might have been more accurately called a battle, seeing as how we won WW2. No doubt it's questionable. I'm sure there are several states in Faerun that would fold like France to the Germans, then along would come the U.S.-like liberators with more magical muscle to aid the resistance. All of this of course would have to depend on which nations/cities were attacked first. No one has discussed what parts would be affected first. If Waterdeep was Day 1 of the invasion, I'm sure for instance it wouldn't get off the ground half as good as if Day 1 was launched at the Hordelands.
mortellan 05-07-04, 04:55 AM	Send it through a portal (best in a big metropolis) on earth and earth is done for as they can't battle Shadows (or any uncorporal creature) while they are multiplying fast. Damn right Earthlings are defensless against incorpreal undead. Who ya gonna call? Shadowbusters!
JoeX 05-07-04, 11:30 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. 100 years? 100 questions not 100 years READ BEFORE ANSWERING lol. You need maybe 1 day to locate a nuke/caster. No points of references? Lakes, Mountains and other natural reference points. Or in a radius of 100 miles arround portal X. North of portal X,... The rest can be done with locate object and a cleric who flies with wind walk over the area.[b] Locate Object can locate objects well-known or clearly visualized. Nukes don't qualify since Wizards has never seen one. Locate Object last only 20 minutes for a 20 level caster during wich he can Wind Walk only 18 milles. So you cover an area 18 miles long but 2400 feet wide not much in geographical terms. It will take an eternity to cover a 100 radius miles Plus if we consider the third dimension it's even worse. A cleric wind wlking at an height of 100 feet will miss the bomber flying at a 10 miles height or the sub one klicks below him. I will adress you others points later.
Derren S. 05-07-04, 11:37 AM	Excpet that the cleric knows if the bomb is carried by a bomber or sub. And lets even give them the benefit that Locate object is blocked off by the bomb (by lead or whatever). It can still be divined through which portal the nuke is brought to Faerun and there it can be destroyed easily.
Ramius_Mordale 05-07-04, 12:28 PM	Just putting a side note in here. Doesn't it say in the rule book that pistols act as +1 weapons, even if mundane still, to hit incorpereal creatures. I think it was a 2nd Ed and 3/3.5 Ed rule, can someone back me up or correct me on that? But I'm pretty sure I am right. That would mean technically all firearms could affect those shadows sence they would just need a magical weapon to hurt them. Hmm...interesting just read the Shadow chart in the 3.5 MM and it says nothing of DR for it, so if thats the case and if firearms are treated as +1 weapons for hitting incorpreal creatures then shadows could be combated. One thing pointed out though for the Shadow, that it doesn't need darkness to move about. It isn't a Vampire know your monsters. :P But I'm just kidding with you on that. Remember this though on DR its changed so it only gives up to DR 20 regardless of how powerful of magic is needed to bypass it since 3.5 came out with new rules for it. And most weapons at least high powered rifles, do more damage then that, and artellry units definiately do more then that. Plus remember this, for different types rounds you have different types of effects. Piercing rounds are used to pierce even tank armor and explosive rounds are made to scatter and basically chew up your insides as well as make a huge hole in you. Attack helicoppters are also being ignored in this war senerio. They are very maneuverable and hard to hit sence they can dodge homing missiles if you got a good pilot (which if you are a pilot they only take the best for these types of helicoppters). Okay now going back to morality issue a page or so back. I said that most people wouldn't do most of the things you are suggesting. And just cause your evil doesn't mean you have no morality what-so-ever, it just means you are incrediably cruel, greedy, lustful, and destructive. Even most evil people have certain things called good qualities in them. It just varies from person to person just like it varies for us. Plus lets say we go with your example that evil people are just doing these huge evil acts and doing mass genocide. Elminster, Kelben, Simbul....oh hell, all the chosen of any good deity and neutral one would probably step up and stop such maddness if you say FR has such the huge advantage as they say they do. Mystra would literally cut them off from the Weave if they obiviously slaughtering our troops for the hell of it, even if we surrendered. Plus I don't think Larloch would be stupid enough to randomly kill people just for the hell of it. He isn't evil cause he enjoys killing people, he is evil cause he is extremely selfish and thinks only of his own personal gain. He has struck a deal with Mystra even to allow good adventurers to take magic items out back into the world that he possesses in exchange to learn new forms of magic. So don't count him amoungst the slaughtering evil hordes. He hasn't lived for over two thousand years by making waves. :P Well thats pretty much all I wanted to say. Some pretty good valid points so far, but Nukes are last resort and as numerous people have said, No one is going to use them. That would mean no one is probably going to cast epic spells or destroy whole cities on earth either. Just a thought to throw in there. Well adios.
Damien_Hiro 05-07-04, 12:29 PM	Most of you have forgotten that the Faerun is not a united country. It does not have a united military. I does not have millions of spellcasters to combat the military might of earth, it has a few. Most of the fighting would only have a few spellcasters. Look at the war for Evereska. They send hundreds of regular troops to fight. Also most of you have been thinking about modern warfare like WWII. Today's military is smaller and more efficient. Targets can be engage hundreds of miles away. We do not do mass invasions anymore. We use smaller units and surgical strikes. We would win. I do not think it would be a complete occupation, but one where we would hold key areas in Faerun. We have smart bombs and TV. We could win the war psycologically with TV. We could put one in every house and have shows like Friends that would make them fat and lazy. We could actually win it with out firing a shot. Now if that sound s ridiculous to you, then that should put this whole matter into perspective.
Derren S. 05-07-04, 12:32 PM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale Just putting a side note in here. Doesn't it say in the rule book that pistols act as +1 weapons, even if mundane still, to hit incorpereal creatures. I think it was a 2nd Ed and 3/3.5 Ed rule, can someone back me up or correct me on that? But I'm pretty sure I am right. Never heard of that rule and I don't think it is in 3.X Attack helicoppters are also being ignored in this war senerio. They are very maneuverable and hard to hit sence they can dodge homing missiles if you got a good pilot (which if you are a pilot they only take the best for these types of helicoppters). Like those Apaches in Bagdad? And can those chopper dodge lightning bolts and miniature tornados? Most of you have forgotten that the Faerun is not a united country. It does not have a united military. I does not have millions of spellcasters to combat the military might of earth, it has a few. Faerun has maybe 1 million spellcaster not counting monster. Thats enough to kill millions and millions of troops as every caster of at least lvl 4-5 is as strong as a 10 earth soldiers. Today's military is smaller and more efficient. Targets can be engage hundreds of miles away. Hitting something at 100 miles requires reconnaissance what is much harder on Faerun than earth (No satelites, few AWACS). There wile Faerun caster can cover 1000 miules within seconds and can make themself invisible. We use smaller units and surgical strikes. Which would eradicated within seconds. A mid level mage has no problem killing a small unit by his own and with divinations covert strikes aren't very succesfull. And if earth really kills a epic mages he is ressurected and the whole mission was useless (or better, recasts astral projection) I do not think it would be a complete occupation, but one where we would hold key areas in Faerun. We have smart bombs and TV. And FR has thinking weapons of mass destruction (epic mages) and unlmited troops (summons, callings), extrem good information gathering (divination), superassasines (invisible shadow dancer) and invulnerable troops (ghosts and other incorporal things) We could win the war psycologically with TV. We could put one in every house and have shows like Friends that would make them fat and lazy. We could actually win it with out firing a shot. Now if that sound s ridiculous to you, then that should put this whole matter into perspective. Because every person on Faerun has a TV?
Ramius_Mordale 05-07-04, 12:48 PM	Well first of all a tornado, and yes I live in Tornado Alley in the US of A, they aren't that hard to dodge. A pilot of even amatuer quality could in fact pilot far enough away from it and always keep it at a save distance once it hit the ground. As for the lightning bolt, good point. The pilot would get a reflect save most likely like everone else does. And if we are talking about pilots of this day and age they aren't green behind the ear types they are probably fairly decent level and would have a good reflex save since they are after all pilots flying at incredable speeds. (Some helis can travel up to mach one if they are truly booking it, but probably only to get out of an engagement zone quickly.) Most standard speeds for aircraft are cruising speeds of around 150 to 500 miles per hour depending on the aircraft being used. Also most machinary has protection from elements such as lightning in order to protect their flight computers and electronic equipment from damage. But noting that this is a magical lightning bolt I would say he/she would still get a reflex save to take half or no damage, cause I don't know I just see pilots as at least having evasion, but thats my opinion. Hmm...well I'm pretty sure I also saw the rules in both of the 3.X rulings as well on the firearms deal. I'll take a look and get back to you on that.
Derren S. 05-07-04, 12:54 PM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale Well first of all a tornado, and yes I live in Tornado Alley in the US of A, they aren't that hard to dodge. A pilot of even amatuer quality could in fact pilot far enough away from it and always keep it at a save distance once it hit the ground. I rather meant thinking tornados like the ones air elemental create. But good point, when Faerun wants to deny earthlings air support they summon a hurricane. Try dodging that. Also most machinary has protection from elements such as lightning in order to protect their flight computers and electronic equipment from damage. But noting that this is a magical lightning bolt I would say he/she would still get a reflex save to take half or no damage, cause I don't know I just see pilots as at least having evasion, but thats my opinion. And totally unsupported by the rules. The Heli would get half damage because beeing inanimate thats all. Considering that a lightning bolt often does 2x or more the damage of an AA missile, that doesn't really help. Also, the rotor is very vulnerable. Hitting the rotor and the heli goes down.
Ramius_Mordale 05-07-04, 01:10 PM	Hmm...lol No thank you don't want to see a hurricane! LOL I've seen a tornado and you don't want to be in a storm where those as well as lightning is going on. In retrospect yes the heli is screwed if strom effects are summoned. Sorry for the misread on what you meant by the tornado but I thought you meant like the tornado spell casted by the druid. :P My bad. Yeah I suppose your right about not having rules for it. Yes and hitting the rotor will take it down, but remember this point on how tactics are used today. Helis are used as support vehicles for troops and tanks. And they usually base themselves about 10 miles or so from that actual army to keep from one force being compeletly wiped out in one fell swoop. Same with aircraft and cruise missiles, though bump that even farther back for those. Basically getting to my point, its the troops job to protect the tanks, as its the tanks job to protect the helis, as its the helis job to protect the troops. Though noting if hurricane type winds did suddenly appear they would mostlikely have major complications no doubt about that. But today's special forces, especially the rangers, are trained in the worst conditions imaginable. Plus they train special forces how to resist torture, by torturing them for quite some time. I'll find the name of it and tell you how long the training lasts if you'd like to know. But good points Derren S. I'll probably post later sometime today about if I found that rule or not on firearms. But until then good journeys.
Derren S. 05-07-04, 01:14 PM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale But today's special forces, especially the rangers, are trained in the worst conditions imaginable. Plus they train special forces how to resist torture, by torturing them for quite some time. I'll find the name of it and tell you how long the training lasts if you'd like to know. As a counterpoint, no called shots in D&D so no attacking the rotor. Rangers may be trained for much, but are they trained to fight against undead, regenerating trolls, invisible stalkers and spellcaster who can see and hit them wherever they are? Also why torture? Just kill them and speak with dead for all information you want. Or Detect thoughts. Ask them about the information you want and while they may not answer they certainly will think about it.
Damien_Hiro 05-07-04, 04:23 PM	How would all of these spelllcasters be united, Derren S? I guarantee we could bring some of them to our side. It is called espionage. Then we not only have our technological advantage we can nullify their magical one. Every war we have fought started out with small groups infiltrating our target and gathering information. That is how we pick up our targets. Imagine how effective a UAV with a hellfire missile or a .50 cal MG would be. Faerun would not be able to gather its forces fast enough. They can barely put their own differences aside to fight the Tuigan horde. Did they have tons of spellcasters? No, just a few to handle enemy spellcasters. If we invaded, it would not be like Normandy, but more like Iraq or Afghanistan. Come on, world domination is so easy, look at Bill Gates.
Derren S. 05-07-04, 04:34 PM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro How would all of these spelllcasters be united, Derren S? By contacting the guild leaders. When Haalura and Cormyr decide the fight earth you already have more than 200.000 arcane spellcaster (not counting the clerics). Add in the Harper and you have a big fighting force. And if Earth is unlucky enough they will enter through a portal located in Thay. And don't forget various good aligned monster with spellcasting abilities. I guarantee we could bring some of them to our side. It is called espionage. How can you gurantee it? What would you promise those mages? More technology would mean that spellcaster loose some power so which spellcaster would help earth? (And be strong enough not to get eliminated quickly) Then we not only have our technological advantage we can nullify their magical one. How should a hand full of weak to average spellcaster nullfy the magical power of Faerun? And what about Faerun adapting to use earth technology? A Epic Mages mass producing modern rifles and missiles and Gond Clerics using tanks and magic in combination? Every war we have fought started out with small groups infiltrating our target and gathering information. And how would you do that not knowing the way of live, geography, political structur, customs or even language without beeing noticed and captured? Imagine how effective a UAV with a hellfire missile or a .50 cal MG would be. Not much. The UAV is just a too big target for spellcaster while the Cal .50 is ineffective against something with DR. And when the enemy is invisible the UAV is totally useless. Faerun would not be able to gather its forces fast enough. Faerun doesn't have to gather forces, it has to gather epic/high level spellcaster which can teleport all over Faerun within seconds. They can barely put their own differences aside to fight the Tuigan horde. Did they have tons of spellcasters? No, just a few to handle enemy spellcasters. Because the Horde wasn't a faerun wide threat. Also where is the battle against the horde documented? In a roman? Romans don't follow the actual rules very closely. Also why did the outnumbered army of faerun win? Yes, because of the spellcaster. If we invaded, it would not be like Normandy, but more like Iraq or Afghanistan. Come on, world domination is so easy, look at Bill Gates. Yes, it actually would be worse than Irak. Earth might destroy Faeruns armies, but will loose thousands of soldiers and billions worth of equipment every day to a single mage with no chance to stoping him. And now thing how it woul look like when 100 of such mages attack. Earths forces will be destroyed within days. One epic mage only needs 2-3 spells to destroy an whole army camp and has still spells left to teleport to the next camp and destroy this too. And what will Earthforces do against knights charging them when all of their ammunition and fuel was destroyed by a wizard the night before? (Not that those knight are needed, spellcaster can kill them all by themself).
Cunning Linguist 05-07-04, 04:44 PM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro How would all of these spelllcasters be united, Derren S? I guarantee we could bring some of them to our side. It is called espionage. Then we not only have our technological advantage we can nullify their magical one. Every war we have fought started out with small groups infiltrating our target and gathering information. That is how we pick up our targets. Imagine how effective a UAV with a hellfire missile or a .50 cal MG would be. Faerun would not be able to gather its forces fast enough. They can barely put their own differences aside to fight the Tuigan horde. Did they have tons of spellcasters? No, just a few to handle enemy spellcasters. If we invaded, it would not be like Normandy, but more like Iraq or Afghanistan. Come on, world domination is so easy, look at Bill Gates. You may have a suprise comming if you think that Iraq and Afghanistan are anything like a normal run contry, or even close to a Faerun contry. Iraq and Afghanistan are both run down contries who have been starving the last 10 years. Invading them is like beating up a guy who has the last stages of AIDS. Now, how do you figure you can nullify magic with modern tech? In every post here, we see that that will never be the case. Magic always beats Tech, since magic can do everything tech can do, and more. Now, I agree that there is more tech to go around then there is magic, but tech can't even come close to what magic can do. Did the Tuigan horde attack Thay? No? Care to guess why? They had a ton of wizards there, who would have killed them all off if they tried. Do you really think that you can just put a CIA agent in Faerun, and he will know whos who? The chosen of mystra can hear the 10 words that comes after there name is spoken, if the CIA agent started to ask around, he would be taken down at once. Besides, what is he going to report back? They have dragons, and trolls, and all sort of things, and they have Undeads, and they have gods that talk to them. If Earth knew this, they would never ever invade Faerun. Only way they are going to invade is if they know to little to make them think twice about it.
Mirtek 05-07-04, 04:56 PM	Originally posted by Ruler of All Beer Mugs Diseases introduced from Europe into the Americas killed more native Americans than the Europeans did. The Soviet Union mass produced hundreds of tons of bioweapons. If a few hundred aircraft with a few tons of bioweapons on board each one flew over Faerun and spread multiple diseases, most human or near human life would end. After their worshippers die, the gods will be weakened (with a few exceptions, such as Talona). THEN it is time to send in the troops (after they get immunized, of course). Doesn't work. Diseases are among the thing which can be dealt with most easily on Faerun. A few simple low level spells will render the most vile Bioweapons useless.Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale Mystra would literally cut them off from the Weave if they obiviously slaughtering our troops for the hell of it, even if we surrendered. Mystra is not allowed to do that. She tried this once and was faced by the circle of greater gods which just told her: stop it, restore magic to everyone, or dieOriginally posted by Damien_Hiro If we invaded, it would not be like Normandy, but more like Iraq or Afghanistan. And both places are so securely ruled, aren't they? :rolleyes: Originally posted by Damien_Hiro They can barely put their own differences aside to fight the Tuigan horde. Did they have tons of spellcasters? No, just a few to handle enemy spellcasters. Actually yes, the had! That's why the Tuigan's were beaten. They had only inferior magic compared to the magic of the crusading army send to stop them. That's how they were defeated: Through magic. As far as soldiers were concerned the Tuigan horde outnumbered the crusaders in a 5:1 ratio and still couldn't beat them because of the War Wizards and their battle magicOriginally posted by Cunning Linguist Did the Tuigan horde attack Thay? No? Care to guess why? They had a ton of wizards there, who would have killed them all off if they tried. And the Tuigan horde actually started their invasion of Faerun with Thay. But the Red Wizards met them right at Thay's boarders, showed them a little of their magical powers and that was enough to change the mind of the Tuigan leaders. The whole invasion could have been over at this point if not for Thay offering them to magically move them to Thay's other side that they could continue their rampage against Thay's faerunian neighbours.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-07-04, 05:51 PM	one of the things to realize in a conversation or thought arguement such as this is that yes, while magic will likely beat out technology, it is because of one, simple reason. magic, as far as D&D goes, is almost exactly like technology. It must be researched and developed and the end product usually has a singular purpose and yadda yadda yadda. like tech. more importantly, however, is that magic, in D&D, 'advances' just like technology does and can compare to technological advancement in an almost direct manner. The methods might be wildly different, but the end results are always the same. But my point is that Faerun is more magically advanced than earth is technologically advanced. While earth has far greater numbers and has a number of other advantages concerning its technological advancement, those epic mages will bring unholy doom upon the terrans, even if there are only a few dozen of then in all of the faerunian planes. Faerun's "magical" advancement is probably a few centuries ahead of earth's technological advancement and is probably more comparible to Star Trek: The Next Generation's level of technology. (especially right around the last few movies.) Now, if this were Faerun vs. Earth (of Star Trek: TNG), then the battle would be very, very short for Faerun. epic mages or not. yes, I am aware that much of the science behind trek is false (because, to maintain continuity, they had to maintian all of the tech the writers thought up from its 38 years or so of existance.) but my point remains valid. Faerun is probably a few centuries ahead of us, but, unlike technology, once magic is developed, it does not spread nearly as well except in extreme circumstances in most fantasy settings. (high magic, for instance. But faerun is not high magic.) EDIT: in fact, often, the most powerful magics are often the ones in a dusty, millenia old tome locked away in the dungeon of doom guarded by the sleeping dragon of hate within the volcanoes of firey death. technology almost always goes through a certain process and invariably ends up becoming easy to make and able to undergo mass production to the point so that it could become available to -everyone- as opposed to just mages who learn the art or just that one mage. whereas technology, once it becomes easy enough to make, can become very widely available, depending on the actual product. -effectively upgrading the entire army and maybe even the general populous. But all of that really depends on the individual product. ... anyway... just thought I'd point that out because faerun does have its own natural advantage. However, if earth -were- smart enough to engage its enemy willingly, they would spend years if not decades simply researching faerun. during that time, faerun would likely learn something of earth, but I'm sure that earth would have some idea as per what magic, undead, and trolls are enough to prepare an invasion. there's nothing saying that the attack had to be a surprise attack. in fact, quite the opposite. I'm sure both sides would be quite well aware of each other before the first shot was fired or first sword drawn or spell cast. one of the dumbest things earth could do is suddenly send an invasion force blindly. I'm sure they would know enough to make use of antimagic (as in the sixth level wizard/sorcerer spell "antimagic field") and other countermeasures in their conventional forces to better handle Faerun. They would also likely have a few mages of their own on their side as well (if earth did research faerun, I'm sure that people would have gone through to earth as well and traded some numbers. agents, double agents, spies, and the whole shebang.) in either case, earth would hold a severe advantage simply because of their superior number and general level of combat ability and experience. Doing any of that, I think, would put earth on much more equal grounds than what I think many of the posters here would give credit for. However, I doubt very much that the gods, even with the war going on, would do much to refuse the 6~7 billion person exodus to faerun. Hell, the major shift in worship and god/god interaction would likely bring the war to all levels of mortalilty and fundementally alter faerun and earth forever. Reguardless of the actual outcome or who actually wins, however, one thing would be certain. the two worlds would merge. they would have to. earth would dominate either by war or a mass exodus but faerun could -not- kill every single human being on earth, or even a large number of them. earth would soon realize and combine the best attributes of tech and magic (mass produced magic) and even, to a degree, culture from both worlds.
Derren S. 05-07-04, 06:02 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels Now, if this were Faerun vs. Earth (of Star Trek: TNG), then the battle would be very, very short for Faerun. epic mages or not. yes, I am aware that much of the science behind trek is false (because, to maintain continuity, they had to maintian all of the tech the writers thought up from its 38 years or so of existance.) but my point remains valid. And when a country of today attacks a world of Neandertal age level the war is also very short, but this is not the case. Now is now, and in 400 Years when we reach TNG time Faerun has also evolved an we have the same situation as now. When you face a much more advanced enemy you can't simply say that it is unfair and that they have to wait till you have done 60 years of research while their advancment stays still. Faeruns magic level has absolutly no connection to earths technology level and the argument that Magic is more advanced and has to be compared to Science Fiction technology because todays earth can't beat them is total nonsense. They would also likely have a few mages of their own on their side as well (if earth did research faerun, I'm sure that people would have gone through to earth as well and traded some numbers. agents, double agents, spies, and the whole shebang.) in either case, earth would hold a severe advantage simply because of their superior number and general level of combat ability and experience. Doing any of that, I think, would put earth on much more equal grounds than what I think many of the posters here would give credit for. Ah, yes. earth suddenly learns thousend years of magical knowledge while Farun can't close the 400 years gap between their and earth technological level. If both sides study each others technology/magic, Faerun can reach earths technology level much faster than earth can reach Faeruns magic level, Especially because magic can be used to build technology, but no amount of technology can help you with magical skills/items. And Faerun isn't exactly a peacefull place so the combat ability is equal to earth, maybe even higher because earth has no roaming monsters which you need to kill. but faerun could -not- kill every single human being on earth, or even a large number of them. earth would soon realize and combine the best attributes of tech and magic (mass produced magic) and even, to a degree, culture from both worlds. Faerun is certainly capable to kill every living beein on Earth. It may take a while but they can. Actually a single high level Necromancer is enough. Create Shadows, Alips and other incorporal undeath and let them loose on earth. The result is sooner or later all live on earth is exterminated with no chance of resistance. And you can't mass produce magic. Every magical item has to be made by hand. Earth has no magic and if they started right now to learn them they can't reach Faeruns magical level in 1000 years. And because we are talking about Earth of today vs. Faerun today earth has no Enterprise-D and no magic.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-07-04, 06:23 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. When you face a much more advanced enemy you can't simply say that it is unfair and that they have to wait till you have done 60 years of research while their advancment stays still. no, I said it would be stupid to make a sudden attack without first gaining a significant amount of information reguarding the target. it isn't unfair, it's unwise. it doesn't have anything to do with advancement, it has to do with smart tactics. you don't just suddenly discover a portal and suddenly send hordes of soldiers through. it doesn't work like that. Faeruns magic level has absolutly no connection to earths technology level and the argument that Magic is more advanced and has to be compared to Science Fiction technology because todays earth can't beat them is total nonsense. and why is that? Ah, yes. earth suddenly learns thousend years of magical knowledge while Farun can't close the 400 years gap between their and earth technological level. If both sides study each others technology/magic, Faerun can reach earths technology level much faster than earth can reach Faeruns magic level. And Faerun isn't exactly a peacefull place so the combat ability is equal to earth, maybe even higher because earth has no roaming monsters which you need to kill.[b] I doubt that very much. Becoming a mage in faerun is very much like going through standard school on Earth and likely takes approximately as long to completely learn the equivelent magics of a 1st level mage. with intensive training or just practice, a mage can become high level very quickly. likely within two decades to learn the entire process, assuming technology can't be developed to access the magical energies that permiate around both earth and faerun. Faerun is certainly capable to kill every living beein on Earth. It may take a while but they can. Actually a single high level Necromancer is enough. Create Shadows, Alips and other incorporal undeath and let them loose on earth. The result is sooner or later all live on earth is exterminated with no chance of resistance. I doubt that very much. if this sort of thing was done once, it might not be countered well. but even if it caused a sort of terrible devistation once, that doesn't mean that something couldn't be made to specifically counter that threat. every other time and neutralize it from ever happening again. particularly if earth already knew that something like that -could- happen, as defenses against it would likely be already availalble and widely distributed.
Damien_Hiro 05-07-04, 06:46 PM	Afghanistan and Iraq are secure, for the most part. Iraq has a population of 25 million people, there are only about 4,000-8,000 insurgents. Please do not display the ignorance of our irresponsible media. Faerun would be the same thing. After we give the people in Faerun TV's, PC's and Orange mocha frappacino's. We would be able to walk all over them. Besides wizards are not invincible. You mean to tell me that we would not be able to hire magekillers, assassins and wizards of our own in Faerun. You have misjudged humanity my friend. Now matter what, money and power can be very influential. I am not saying it would be a cake walk, but we would be able to conquer Faerun. What is stopping us from stealing magic to use against them? Nothing. We are adaptable enough to beat magic. Begin the Invasion!
Cunning Linguist 05-07-04, 07:03 PM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro Afghanistan and Iraq are secure, for the most part. Iraq has a population of 25 million people, there are only about 4,000-8,000 insurgents. Please do not display the ignorance of our irresponsible media. Faerun would be the same thing. After we give the people in Faerun TV's, PC's and Orange mocha frappacino's. We would be able to walk all over them. Besides wizards are not invincible. You mean to tell me that we would not be able to hire magekillers, assassins and wizards of our own in Faerun. You have misjudged humanity my friend. Now matter what, money and power can be very influential. I am not saying it would be a cake walk, but we would be able to conquer Faerun. What is stopping us from stealing magic to use against them? Nothing. We are adaptable enough to beat magic. Begin the Invasion! It's clear you take the Fox News look to how the Iraq war is going along. Iraq was beaten down, and starving when the US invaded. They had no weapons, no food, no anything. They did not like there ruler, they did not want to support him. Same thing with Afghanistan. Faerun is nothing like this. You can't just give people TV and PC's you need to build a infrastruction, and if you look at Iraq for comparison, we see that the US army would never be able to do that, even now, they have still to repair the watersupplie lines and electrical lines. Faerun has nothing of this kind, so you need to lay all new lines, you need to build powerplants, make content that will sell to the Faerun people. If it was just to hire assasins and magekillers, why are all the chosen of mystra still alive? Im sure Szass wants them dead, Fzouls also, and they have the gold to buy any assassin they wanted.
Ramius_Mordale 05-07-04, 08:08 PM	Actually to point out, there are people in Faerun that distain magic and think it is evil. It is in the Magic of Faerun, and mage killers are available for hire. And the Chosen of Mystra have probably dealt with their fair share of assassins and mage killers, its just they haven't written about it cause it wasn't too terribly important. They can't put everything they did in one novel you know. :P So just don't assume they haven't faced one here or there. Still looking on that firearms rule, I'm checking all my 2nd through 3.5 books before I make an official statement on that. Going back to killing Chosen with Szass or Fzoul. I'm sure they have Elminster even says he has faced off with Szass a few times and his minions that have been sent at him. So, I'm assuming El has faught a mage killer here an assassin there. And Mystra has the right if she so chooses to cut people off from the Weave as long as it is a very good reason. If she believes it is being overly abused or used over excessively she can cut them off indiffenently if it calls for it. Usually though she only reserves that power for severe cases such as people causing significant damage to the Weave. Also remember this Mystra doesn't allow spells to be casted past 10th level since Karsus. So super destructive spells will have a limit of some. But as I said before in a previous post that the Shadow Weave, from what I can tell, has no such restrictions. I have never heard of any gods turning against Mystra. She is the greater deity of magic and if she cuts everyone off from the Weave, I think that counts the gods if she so chooses. Plus here would be her bargaining chip. If I go I take the Weave with me. She can if she wishes just let the Weave go and faulter into nothing. What god could stop her? But that is only in a drastic senerio that I don't care to get in an argument over. As long as she has all the gods of magic on her side, which Azuth is always going to be, your not going to intimidate her. Plus she gots some of the most powerful Chosen in the Realms to call on for aid and protection if she needs it. Hey if you can point out a book that has when Mystra was specifically challenged by 5 gods and it says it in a source book I'll concede this argument. But I have looked through the timeline throughly and haven't found when that ever happened. All I was saying that evil casters would probably be on a sort rope held by not just good people but by neutral ones as well in order to keep balance. But Mage Killers and Assassins could probably be bought on FR side by our forces. They pretty much work for whoever pays them money, that's pretty much how they do business. Otherwise they aren't being very good assassins are they? :P And as always. Adios. :D
Ramius_Mordale 05-07-04, 08:14 PM	BTW, to counter the who could stop Mystra from letting the Weave go, its Ao. Time of Troubles gab yadda yadda yadda. So now back to the topic at hand. Thank you.
Ruler of All Beer Mugs 05-07-04, 08:26 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek Doesn't work. Diseases are among the thing which can be dealt with most easily on Faerun. A few simple low level spells will render the most vile Bioweapons useless. If this is true, then why are there any naturally occurring plagues on Faerun? It may be possible to cure a small percentage of the population when one disease is pandemic. Are there enough clerics in Faerun to cure almost everyone of multiple diseases which infect everyone, including the clerics, at the same time? Can tens of millions of cure disease spells be cast in one week?
Cunning Linguist 05-07-04, 08:39 PM	Still looking on that firearms rule, I'm checking all my 2nd through 3.5 books before I make an official statement on that. I think you are thinking about that firearms are always mastercrafted, and therefore use the +1 to hit bouns that mastercrafted weapons get. This bonus is NOT magical, just normal mastercrated bonus. And Mystra has the right if she so chooses to cut people off from the Weave as long as it is a very good reason. If she believes it is being overly abused or used over excessively she can cut them off indiffenently if it calls for it. Usually though she only reserves that power for severe cases such as people causing significant damage to the Weave. Also remember this Mystra doesn't allow spells to be casted past 10th level since Karsus. So super destructive spells will have a limit of some. But as I said before in a previous post that the Shadow Weave, from what I can tell, has no such restrictions. Mystra can only cut of people who are hurting the weave, she cannot cherrypick who would be able to use the weave, she tried that once, and she got a major slapdown. Epic spells are not banned, so you can cast as powerful as spells as you want. So might magic that destroyes cities is something that everyone with the right levels and feats can cast.(as long as you can take the backlash damage) Shadow weave does not differ from the normal weave in this fasion, it also allowes epic magic, and you can cast the same epic spells from it, as you can with the normal weave. (but not Epic Sunlight or anything like that, follows normal shadow weave rules) I have never heard of any gods turning against Mystra. If not, let me list a few: Bane, Shar, Cyric and Helm. She is the greater deity of magic and if she cuts everyone off from the Weave, I think that counts the gods if she so chooses. Mystra only has control over the weave in Faerun, the gods are not dependent on this magic, she can't cut of any gods from magic. Plus here would be her bargaining chip. If I go I take the Weave with me. She can if she wishes just let the Weave go and faulter into nothing. What god could stop her? But that is only in a drastic senerio that I don't care to get in an argument over. Mystra has been replaced before, and if she left, she would be replaced again. Just look at 1.ed Mystra, and Mystryl. Hey if you can point out a book that has when Mystra was specifically challenged by 5 gods and it says it in a source book I'll concede this argument. Lets see.. Was it in The Trial of Cyric where mystra was put on trial by all the gods in the realms, for her abuse of her magic portfolio? (need some novel fans to tell me if thats the novel or not)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-07-04, 08:50 PM	Originally posted by Ruler of All Beer Mugs If this is true, then why are there any naturally occurring plagues on Faerun? It may be possible to cure a small percentage of the population when one disease is pandemic. Are there enough clerics in Faerun to cure almost everyone of multiple diseases which infect everyone, including the clerics, at the same time? Can tens of millions of cure disease spells be cast in one week? if I might elaborate on this further... a bioweapon would absolutely wreck havoc upon the faerunian population. Yes, there are magics available to utterly wipe clean -one- person or small groups of persons from disease. however, short of a mass production of cure disease wands, the population is hardly immune to disease, with the sole exception of beings that are immune, that are the high level priests, and those with access with those priests. which essentialily means that a very large portion of the population would be completely wiped out while smaller factions would remain untouched. Furthermore, a genetically altered virus - induced plague means that there are considerably fewer divine casters in the battlefield that are doing anything offensive.
Ramius_Mordale 05-07-04, 09:32 PM	Yes I know of the masterwork rules Cunning_Linguist but thank you for the refresher for those who don't. What I have heard from, now this may be false, but a friend of mine, since he was the most experienced at the time, used to say firearms in 2nd Edition used to be considered magical for hurting incorpreal creatures, namely ghost, but it only worked 50% of the time. Now this may have been one of the hundreds of optional rules 2nd Edition had printed and is obscure in some lost tome but I'm going off of that reference and I don't think a person who played it for 10 years would just make something up off the top of his head for his pleasure. He wouldn't have a reason to lie that it was in some sort of source material. I didn't say Mystra didn't have enemies I said what gods would put forth that. Now since you gave me some examples, I'll decline half of the argument of magic. Be it as it is, there is a cap on the Weave for epic spells. There is a 2nd Edition reference in the Netheril campaign setting and in 3rd Edition material that supports that Mystra since Karsus casted his infamous spell Karsus's Avatar has banned any caster from achieving 11 level spells and above in the Realms. As I said if you read closer, that the Shadow Weave does NOT have this restriction. I do say this on Mystra's account that the reason why Helm opposed Mystra was because it was the Time of Troubles and he, if I remember correctly, kicked more than just her behind. And I'm not completely sure if she did fight him or not. Bane was a given, so was Cyric as well as Shar. But Mystra has many allies which would be the Gods of Magic, Selune, and numerous other good and neutral deities. But equally to be fair she has probably just as many enemy deities as well. Also I noted that she would only do that in an extreme circumstance where if we, Earthlings as some call ourselves, were being slaughtered by these uber mages everyone has been talking about. And as I stated, the Chosen of Good and Neutral Deities would probably be the first line of control and would only be needed. After all thats why the Chosen of Mystra exist, is to keep the Weave from being abused like it was in the past. Okay now on deities being not able to cast arcane spells, your right on that. Seems Deities get there magic from a higher power (Ao). My bad on that part. Still most Deities of lower level could not just take Mystra down with great difficulty and without great sacrifice, if it is even possible, since she pretty much is always resurrected like not even a second after her death. If you think El is a ***** to kill (which you can't, not unless you do some ultra stuff that bascially you need Ao's power to do), then it'll be that x100. When you get on the deific level it just gets even harder to keep such power dead for long or to kill for that matter. One more thing, Mystra has always replaced Mystra. It was the same goddess all the way through the timeline, just a different name and a slightly different personality. She has merely reincariated herself as you pointed out. Oh and by all means, bust out those novels. I want a whole list of them so I know what to buy in the future. I have decided to pick them up for some entertainment. Thanks and I'm officially official of nothing. Oh yeah, made you sweat there, LOL. :D Have a nice day.:)
kedi 05-08-04, 12:08 AM	Well, my first post over this thread: Singlehanded victory: Elminster, as usual wearing his Elminster's Evasion spell. No physical attack can be made to him -no attack can be made to him. Discounting Elminster-the-Ed's-Megola-Dream, think of seven sisters alliancing with the shadovars, red wizards, rashemi, halruaans, Zhentarim, Cult of the Dragon, Drows, Elven High Mages. Elven high mages cast the simple, classic high magic Earthquake to ruin a few city. BTW, some great wyrm, including the cult of the dragon dragons and wyrms of the north. They make a big suprise attack. Then the magi come and blast up with fireball. Drow's clean out the heads, and shadovars, well, they can do anything you want them to. You want big, stupid armies? Shortbow handed goblins and orcs! There you go! Mages not enough? Bring on Larloch and his lich minions! A few summoned succubi, tanar'ri, solar, balor, fiend... Now, world has great armies, such as America, Russia, Turkey, England, perhaps france. Now, for except turkey's and other asian countries, armies are based on technology. There are bunchs of spells that cease electricity, or spells can be used to destroy electronic items. World would have a small chance. IMHO
Reles Villian 05-08-04, 12:29 AM	Singlehanded victory: Elminster, as usual wearing his Elminster's Evasion spell. No physical attack can be made to him -no attack can be made to him. I thought Elminsters evasion acted as a contigency when hes about to die he teleports away, not a invincible spell??
Shylo Slick 05-08-04, 12:45 AM	apples and oranges, you can't compare real world things with fantasy things... But let me try, remeber most all of these events will happen together. thousands of sniper teams with special high powered magum sniper rifles, the result would be thousands of the top power players of toril would be taken out very quickly. custom made WMD's of all types unleased, the result would be mass extinction of all the hostile species we choose very quickly. we would be able to quickly train millions of spellslingers using our technology and resources, they wouldn't be able keep up, the result after a few decades would be a toril spellslingers would be outnumbered from then on, and it'll only get worse for them. we would open up the mexican border to toril and they would be swamped with tens of millions of illegal aliens to deal with. we'll send them all our lawyers to help them, they'll really be screwed then. well known fact: even the greatest fighter of toril can be taken out by any street punk with a pistol, one shot, he's toast, and no ******** rule matters. Who's to say that the gods of toril wouldn't welcome 6 billion new potential worshippers with open arms.
mortellan 05-08-04, 01:47 AM	Originally posted by Shylo Slick thousands of sniper teams with special high powered magum sniper rifles, the result would be thousands of the top power players of toril would be taken out very quickly. Normally I'm on he Earth side, but I'm feeling off tonight. First you -can- kill them but ressurection and clone makes it ultimately futile. Capture is a better option. Then again, we can't find bin laden, what makes us think we can catch or kill an archmage. custom made WMD's of all types unleased, the result would be mass extinction of all the hostile species we choose very quickly.Mebbe we could do that and maybe we would be creating a species of zombie for some necromancer that would spread a mutating virus back at us. we would be able to quickly train millions of spellslingers using our technology and resources, they wouldn't be able keep up, the result after a few decades would be a toril spellslingers would be outnumbered from then on, and it'll only get worse for them.assuming the matter lasts a few decades yeah Earth could train mages. By then, the whole war debate is moot. we would open up the mexican border to toril and they would be swamped with tens of millions of illegal aliens to deal with.The door swings both ways, imagine your neighbor being an orc. we'll send them all our lawyers to help them, they'll really be screwed then.Or very rich. well known fact: even the greatest fighter of toril can be taken out by any street punk with a pistol, one shot, he's toast, and no ******** rule matters.Real life sucks don't it. Who's to say that the gods of toril wouldn't welcome 6 billion new potential worshippers with open arms. This could very well happen, especially after everyone sees that ressurections and reincarnations are every-day events on Faerun and throw down their religious texts. Who would fight against somebody that could bring back your loved ones from the dead?
Derren S. 05-08-04, 02:17 AM	Shadows: I say it again, technology can't hurt shadows. You can drop the complete nuclear arsenal of the US on a single Shadow and you wouldn't hurt it. Becoming a mage: Earthlings can't just say "I'm going to be a mage". They have to go to a faerun shool to do so and why should Faerun let them?. Warth has no knowledge about magic and before they can train wizards they do have to learn thousands of years before they reach the magic level of Faerun (and that without the aid of Nether Scrolls). So, without help from FR mages, earthlings can't cast spells not in a hundred of years. And Technology can't help one to become a mage. Stealing magic also is no option. Earth has no clue how to use scrolls and wands. And those enhanced swords do them no good because they don't know how to fight with it. Mageskiller: Did you notice that all magkiller have spells themselfs? Without magic you are screwed. Disease: When earth uses Bioweapons a epic mage just creates a epic spell which cleanses a big area of disease. Its not really a problem. Sniper Teams: They are useless. Half of them get scryed out, and the other half just activate the contagincies of their targets. And if they kill a high level mages he gets ressurected or cloned or just wakes up from astral projecting. And you have to decide if you this discussion should follow the rules or common sense: Rules: A high level fighter laughs when a single punk shoots at him with a gun, but mages also need multiple spells to destroy a tank. Common Sense: A single gunshot could kill a high level fighter, but wizards would still be protected by magic. And a lvl 7 magic missile can take out 5 highly trained special soldiers each 6 seconds. You see Faerun winns in both cases.
Necrontyr 05-08-04, 05:06 AM	How do the portals work? Are they naturally occuring things that Earthlings take advantage of to launch an invasion or are they created by our techonolgy? If created, are they permanent once established or do they have to be maintained by a machine. Can they be created in the air or on a water surface (or underwater)? To conquer Faerun all we'd need to do is give every nation and city state on Faerun a few nukes and blueprints for guns and tanks and they'd tear each other apart. Mages couldn't search out and destroy our nukes because they wouldn't know what a nuke was exactly. What they would see would be a metal cylinder falling out of the sky and then an explosion. They wouldn't know what was inside it or how it worked. Same for mages creating guns or tanks for use against us. They wouldn't know how all the bits went together. Our technology would simply be incomprehensible to Faerunians. If you'd never seen a computer (or tank or plane) you'd have no idea how to operate it. A wand or scroll on the other hands is point and speak and something happens. Although we don't speak the language of the command word or scroll but that works in reverse as well. Actually, how could Faerunians ask a spell to find a nuke. What would they say, "Is that metal tube that makes big explosions in Cormyr?" it could refer to any number of things in a Earth army.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 05:37 AM	Originally posted by Necrontyr Mages couldn't search out and destroy our nukes because they wouldn't know what a nuke was exactly. What they would see would be a metal cylinder falling out of the sky and then an explosion. Question a captive/death about what weapons they have (very sensible when they attack with unknown weaponry) and et voila, knowledge of nukes. They wouldn't know what was inside it or how it worked. Same for mages creating guns or tanks for use against us. They wouldn't know how all the bits went together. Our technology would simply be incomprehensible to Faerunians. You don't have to know how something works to find it. Also guns already exist on Faerun so they know how they work. For the rest use Wieldskill and Understand Device. If you'd never seen a computer (or tank or plane) you'd have no idea how to operate it. As I said above, Wieldskill and you know how to use or even build it. Isn't an argument for technology here that it is very easy to use? Thats also true for faerunians. Epic Level mage with Fabricate, ignore material components and wieldskill = living gun factory. Then give guns to soldiers and train them for a month. Best take Lantan gnomes for this, they already know how to use guns. Not that this is really needed. The wizards are enough to destroy the armies from earth. A wand or scroll on the other hands is point and speak and something happens. Yes, sure. Thats why you need year long study (wizard levels) to use it and have to make caster level check for scrolls. Use or cokmand word activated things are different, but earth will capture a hand full of those and safly bring them to earth at best because they get killed here and there. And when on earth they will rot in som laboratory where dozens of scienties try to find a logical, scientific explanation about how they work and will not be used on the battlefield. Although we don't speak the language of the command word or scroll but that works in reverse as well. I've never heard that using technology is language dependant. You can press buttons without knowing the laguage of the builder. Or does everyone here understand taiwanese because most of the computer comes from there? Also, comprehend language and tongues removes language barriers just fine. Actually, how could Faerunians ask a spell to find a nuke. What would they say, "Is that metal tube that makes big explosions in Cormyr?" it could refer to any number of things in a Earth army. "Where on Faerun is the weapon callled nuke by earthlings"?
Damien_Hiro 05-08-04, 08:19 AM	Hello, reality beats fantasy every time, because fantasy is not real. You are all trying to apply logic to this. Listen up people, some of you love fantasy a lot and hate this reality more than anything. Therefore, not matter what the realists say, you will always discount it. Well get over it. Real guns beat fake wands any day of the week. Your mages are not invisible. Elminister and all of them can die. If we destroyed magic in our world, then we can do it again anywhere else. What do you think happened to all of our magic? We destroyed it for technology. This post was typed in good fun, so do not get bent out of shape.
Cunning Linguist 05-08-04, 08:24 AM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro Hello, reality beats fantasy every time, because fantasy is not real. You are all trying to apply logic to this. Listen up people, some of you love fantasy a lot and hate this reality more than anything. Therefore, not matter what the realists say, you will always discount it. Well get over it. Real guns beat fake wands any day of the week. Your mages are not invisible. Elminister and all of them can die. If we destroyed magic in our world, then we can do it again anywhere else. What do you think happened to all of our magic? We destroyed it for technology. This post was typed in good fun, so do not get bent out of shape. If you belive that we have destroyed magic in this world, you are truly more out of phase with reality then you complain that we are. There is no such thing as magic, never was, never going to be.
Damien_Hiro 05-08-04, 08:58 AM	Thank you, debate solved. Magic does not exist, so it it pointless to argue anymore. Winner.....Earth. We can beat a fake enemy any day off the week.
Cunning Linguist 05-08-04, 09:09 AM	Good thing we all understand that we are not talking about a real world subject here, or you would acutaly be right.
mortellan 05-08-04, 09:47 AM	gotta love those reality checks. To conquer Faerun all we'd need to do is give every nation and city state on Faerun a few nukes and blueprints for guns and tanks and they'd tear each other apart. This is false because according to the pro-Faerunians, magic is more powerful than technology. So by that reasoning the FR should already be slagged and overrun with undead. Either the gods keep them in line very good, or magic isn't used as wanton as suggested in this thread. A quoted 200,000+ mages working full-time could more or less ensure that no evil deed would ever be perpetrated (See Minority Report). Yet this isn't the case in anyone's campaign is it?
Ramius_Mordale 05-08-04, 10:43 AM	Alright just pointing something out about the Fabricate spell. In order for a wizard to make a gun of ours, he would still have to have the appropreate Crafting knowledge to do so. Which means you have to put yourself back 400-600 years for in our time, do you think people can figure out how to build a gun. Even Lantan hasn't made the gears and springs in our guns. The modern age gun is just too complex for them to understand in just a sort amount of time for them to create mass amounts with the Fabricate spell in time. Even if they could acquire blueprints of the gun, it would take them time to study it just like it would take us time to learn Magic. And yes we can learn magic, read the 2nd Edition Netheril setting, although the Elves helped speed up their understanding of Magic, they still had magic at a low degree. And the Netheril people are the ones that found the Nether Scrolls and they studied that and learned most of their arcana knowledge from those scrolls. Which means if you have a scribe/professor looking over such material, even from a scientific stand point, they will eventually learn it through time. Though as you said after a long time of course. Since they first have to learn a wide array of knowledges then descipher all the scrolls, magic tomes and what not. But there is always a chance that a low level wizard could be captured and forced to do this. Plus they can be forced to train people in the Art of Magic as well. Now back to making mass amounts of guns, the wizards could mass produce their 1st generation pistols and muskets they have knowledge of making. But only a small minority have knowledge to make firearms so they wouldn't be able to teach or learn anything more about our tech if they were being mass producing machines for FR. Also, if you can't use a wand without magical knowledge, then how can rogues do it???? Just a thought on that, and I'm sure Earth has its fair share of rogues with the Use Magic Device skill. Which I'm sure they would start putting ranks in when they see how powerful such magic can be. I'm just asking you to put yourself back a few hundred years in the knowledge tree of tech and see if you'd be able to figure out todays tech and how to make it. But I said make not use. They could learn how to use such weapons quite easily since using tech is easier then using magic. A soldier doesn't know how to fight with a sword??? Thats a first for me. If it doesn't take a genius to figure out a gun, you don't think we can't relearn really quickly to use a sword effectively? We still have teacher here on Earth that can train soldiers for that. Plus a soldiers get knife and unarmed combat training. Remember that most soldiers on FR side don't have a magic weapon since most soldiers are A) commoners made into conscripts or B) just warriors. One reminder on this though, that all the heroic classes are made for heros. Which means they are rare, not run of the mill. True there are a lot of them in FR but most don't even break 3rd much less 5th level. Thats why the bulk of adventures are between 1-10th levels. And most don't even have magic items, excluding spell casting classes on that though sense they have the ability and access to magic. Well anyways thats my 2 silver. Now where's that barmaid with my ale? :D
Derren S. 05-08-04, 11:12 AM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale Alright just pointing something out about the Fabricate spell. In order for a wizard to make a gun of ours, he would still have to have the appropreate Crafting knowledge to do so. Which means you have to put yourself back 400-600 years for in our time, do you think people can figure out how to build a gun. Even Lantan hasn't made the gears and springs in our guns. The modern age gun is just too complex for them to understand in just a sort amount of time for them to create mass amounts with the Fabricate spell in time. Even if they could acquire blueprints of the gun, it would take them time to study it just like it would take us time to learn Magic. Or just cast Wieldskill. There are your crafting knowledge. And yes we can learn magic, read the 2nd Edition Netheril setting, although the Elves helped speed up their understanding of Magic, they still had magic at a low degree. And the Netheril people are the ones that found the Nether Scrolls and they studied that and learned most of their arcana knowledge from those scrolls. Which means if you have a scribe/professor looking over such material, even from a scientific stand point, they will eventually learn it through time. Though as you said after a long time of course. Since they first have to learn a wide array of knowledges then descipher all the scrolls, magic tomes and what not. Ok, so earth only has to find a set of nether scrolls, one of the most seeked after artifacs on Faerun which are lost for hundreds of years and study them for thousand years. [b][quote] Now back to making mass amounts of guns, the wizards could mass produce their 1st generation pistols and muskets they have knowledge of making. But only a small minority have knowledge to make firearms so they wouldn't be able to teach or learn anything more about our tech if they were being mass producing machines for FR. See above, wizards could produce state of the art assault rifles as much as they want. Also, if you can't use a wand without magical knowledge, then how can rogues do it???? Just a thought on that, and I'm sure Earth has its fair share of rogues with the Use Magic Device skill. Which I'm sure they would start putting ranks in when they see how powerful such magic can be. How should our thieves be able to learn use magic device? Earth professions, are nothing like the D&D classes. If it doesn't take a genius to figure out a gun, you don't think we can't relearn really quickly to use a sword effectively? We still have teacher here on Earth that can train soldiers for that. Plus a soldiers get knife and unarmed combat training. Remember that most soldiers on FR side don't have a magic weapon since most soldiers are A) commoners made into conscripts or B) just warriors. Guns are much easier to use than bows&swords. I'm sure people who fight with swords will agree with me. One reminder on this though, that all the heroic classes are made for heros. Which means they are rare, not run of the mill. True there are a lot of them in FR but most don't even break 3rd much less 5th level. Thats why the bulk of adventures are between 1-10th levels. And most don't even have magic items, excluding spell casting classes on that though sense they have the ability and access to magic. Just look at the random town generation table in the DMG and FRCS and the equipment/money of the NPC classes. That should show you that they aren't so rare as you think.
Necrontyr 05-08-04, 11:23 AM	At least Ramius understood what I was trying to say. Feats and saving throws aside, think about it realistically, no-one on Faerun is going to understand what in Christ's name a computer, or aircraft, or ICBM or even automatic rifle is all about. And definitely not how to build it. And thinking realistically again, in real life you wouldn't need levels and experience to cast high level spells. Your average schmuck off the street could pick up a scroll and read it aloud, maybe throw some bat s*** in the air and viola, summon balor. Something else just occured to me. In case someone argues that with their high intelligence scores people with like Larloch, Lord Shadow or Elminster would figue our tech out. And maybe they would, but not quickly, unless Mystra told them. Hmm, I'm shooting down my own arguaments but my point was, having the advantages of modern science and universities and a million other things, wouldn't our scientists also have very high intelligence scores. On gods, who would Gond side with, the primitive sword-wielding spell-chucking natives, or the high-tech invaders? Our soldiers also would have high levels and stats, as they have the benefits of extensive training, nutrition and hygine (sp?).
Damien_Hiro 05-08-04, 11:28 AM	I use swords. Guns are easy to use just like a sword is easy to use, but they are both equally hard to use well. Just think how many months of practice soldiers go through now just to squeeze off a couple. That is because it is one thing to squeeze off some rounds in panic than it is to patiently aim breath and shoot. Swords and bows can be equally dumbed down for new users, put the pointy end into the enemy. I am a martial artist in espada y daga fighting. It is just as hard practicing that as it is when I go to the range and qualify wih my rifle, grenade laucher or pistol. Anyway one Cruise missile per resistant wizard equals a spill in Isle 12. Like Joe Dirt says "Life's a garden..dig it." Besides saying we could not conquer FR because of its wizards is like saying we cannot take over the Pokemon world because of the Pokemons.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by Necrontyr At least Ramius understood what I was trying to say. Feats and saving throws aside, think about it realistically, no-one on Faerun is going to understand what in Christ's name a computer, or aircraft, or ICBM or even automatic rifle is all about. And definitely not how to build it. *sigh* Wieldskill....... And thinking realistically again, in real life you wouldn't need levels and experience to cast high level spells. Your average schmuck off the street could pick up a scroll and read it aloud, maybe throw some bat s*** in the air and viola, summon balor. How do you now? And if this is true, now every commoner on faerun can cast spells and considering that Faerun has the better supply of scrolls the chances for earth to win get slimer and slimer. Something else just occured to me. In case someone argues that with their high intelligence scores people with like Larloch, Lord Shadow or Elminster would figue our tech out. And maybe they would, but not quickly, unless Mystra told them. Hmm, I'm shooting down my own arguaments but my point was, having the advantages of modern science and universities and a million other things, wouldn't our scientists also have very high intelligence scores. On gods, who would Gond side with, the primitive sword-wielding spell-chucking natives, or the high-tech invaders? 1. Wieldskill again. 2. Gone doesn't favor the one with higher tech. Farun would be much more technological if Gond would allow it. He alone decides which technology works on faerun and gets discovered. 3. Without magic you can't reach an Int score anywhere near those of epic mages.[quote] Our soldiers also would have high levels and stats, as they have the benefits of extensive training, nutrition and hygine (sp?). Why should our soldiers be high level? They don't get more trained than Faerun knights and don't constantly fight against monster with high CR which gives them XP.
Necrontyr 05-08-04, 12:02 PM	You keep saying "Wieldskill." I don't actually play D&D, I simply buy the books for the fluff. Now, I'm assuming its some kind of feat in which case think realistically (just like you, I'm getting exasperated at repeating myself). In real life, you don't suddenly comprehend how to fly a plane or accurately fire a gun, it takes time and application. Also, while we can plan for magic, its a lot more difficult for Faerunians to plan for fighting technology. Even without D&D (the author said that in this alternate Earth/Toril TSR went bankrupt in the 70s) we still have 30 years of fiction describing magic similar in concept to FR magic. It's what I've been saying all along, we on Earth have experienced swords and bow and arrrows etc. and imagined magic. The are familar and at least vaguely concepts to us. Faerunians would never have seen anything like this, ever. They might think magic makes these things. The mistaken rules thing works both ways, while we might try to apply the laws of physics to magic, Faerunians might try to cast dispel magic on tanks and computers and stuff. How do you know what scores Earthlings could achieve with the benefits of higher education? And our elite soldiers like SEALs or SAS would wipe the floor with your average Faerunian fighter in combat as a result of tactics, better weapons and more training. Has anyone though about the portal thing? Totally inane question, if Earth priests were granted spells, what level do you think the pope would be? And would worshippers of the Hindu and Shinto religions (which exist in the planescape setting don't they) get spells?
Derren S. 05-08-04, 12:06 PM	And again, guns already exist on Faerun, so they recognice that they are not magic. Wieldskill is a 1st level spell which gives the caster +5 to a chosen skill and 1/2 rank so he counts as trained for 1minute/level. Alternativly you gain a weapon or armor profenciy of your choice for the duration of the spell. It is a Gond Cleric only spell, but with limited wish every wizard can get it and ist lasts long enough to make many guns with fabricate. Also all the people who say "Earth can learn magic " should read the "think realistic" part, too. And why do Seals have more training than a knight? That they have better weapons is no question, but knight are trained from the age of 10 (or so) when they start beeing squire. Seal training is a joke compared to that. Continual abuse by the trainer doesn't make the training better.
Necrontyr 05-08-04, 12:16 PM	So how does Wieldskill make you understand how to build a gun? You still would't understand what all the little bits and pieces do or how they go together. And even if you could build a gun, you still wouldn't understand how a bullet fire or the formula to make gunpowder.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 12:20 PM	Originally posted by Necrontyr So how does Wieldskill make you understand how to build a gun? You still would't understand what all the little bits and pieces do or how they go together. And even if you could build a gun, you still wouldn't understand how a bullet fire or the formula to make gunpowder. You use Wieldskill to give you ranks in Craft: Modern Guns. Thats all. With those ranks you can build a gun with fabricate (including ammunition). If you think 1/2 ranks and +5 competence (+Int etc.) is not enough for building a modern gun, get a Gond Cleric to kast a persistant Wieldskill on yyou every day while making a ring of Gunsmithing +30. That is certainly enough.
Necrontyr 05-08-04, 12:29 PM	But there is no "Craft: Modern Guns" in FR. No-one there would know how to make them and thus there's no craft to learn. I'm not denying that Faerunians could learn but it would take a while to understand how they are made. Anyone have any thoughts on the portal thing? I think it influences greatly how the Earthlings would fight. Do spelljammers exist in 3E. Because I'm assuming that the Earthlings would launch satelites into orbit around Toril as soon as possible so their GPS and guidance systems can work. Satelites and spacecraft could add another dimension to the war.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 12:34 PM	You aren't learning how to build guns, you magically give you the knowledge. Besides, How to build guns is already known in faerun only that the earth ones are more modern, but the princip is the same. Nothing which can't be enhanced by magic. No spelljammers as I am aware of, but launching sattleites into faeruns orbit is very hard. You first need a complete launch base for it. This would need months of construction and in a war zone it is impossible.
Cunning Linguist 05-08-04, 12:35 PM	Do spelljammers exist in 3E. Because I'm assuming that the Earthlings would launch satelites into orbit around Toril as soon as possible so their GPS and guidance systems can work. Satelites and spacecraft could add another dimension to the war. Right.. Do you have any idea how HARD it is to launch a satalite into orbit? Much less how hard it is to get 24 of them into the air? And then getting them to orbit in the perfect position? Earth has no landmass to base there rockets from, they don't have any maps of Toril, or any understanding how the radiation fields of Toril works, or if they are even there. Anyone have any thoughts on the portal thing? I think it influences greatly how the Earthlings would fight. We have all assumed that it was a portal, rather big, out in the ocean, outside the sword coast.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist We have all assumed that it was a portal, rather big, out in the ocean, outside the sword coast. Well, the ones which wanted to bring carriers to faerun assumed this, but to my knowledge nothing was said about the portals.
Necrontyr 05-08-04, 12:57 PM	OK, enough with the gun-building thing. Obviously you illustrious individuals are far more knowledgable about the rules and probably guns too. But, could you do the same thing to make a tank or plane? Aaah, but you could launch the rocket carrying the satelites from Earth through the portal and then into Torillian orbit. Totally OT, but are the other planets described in the Realmspace Spelljammer accessory still there in 3E? As for the portals, I humbly submit my ideas for this issue. Who's read Magician by Raymond Fiest? They portals in that are produced first by magic (to shift worlds) but can only move a few individuals. Later, more permanant portals are created, moderated and maintained by some kind of machine. As long as the machine functions, the portal stays open. A similar concept could be related to this arguament, the first portals are created by small hand-held or otherwise small machines and the larger ones by big platform thingys. Like the portals in Stargate. I think they should be able to be created anywhere, but all it takes to shut them is to destroy the machine sustaining it.
Cunning Linguist 05-08-04, 01:03 PM	Aaah, but you could launch the rocket carrying the satelites from Earth through the portal and then into Torillian orbit. Totally OT, but are the other planets described in the Realmspace Spelljammer accessory still there in 3E? The one thing I think we ALL agree on is that the portal is vertical. You need to point a rocked strait up to penetrate the earths gravity.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 01:05 PM	Originally posted by Necrontyr OK, enough with the gun-building thing. Obviously you illustrious individuals are far more knowledgable about the rules and probably guns too. But, could you do the same thing to make a tank or plane? While this is certainly possible with the Wildskill, Fabricate and Ignore Material Components, using them is very hard. Like you said, you made them but don't know how they function. Learing how to use a gun is easy, but driving a tank isn't. The driver also has to be under a Wieldskill effect with permanency which isn't sensible. Aaah, but you could launch the rocket carrying the satelites from Earth through the portal and then into Torillian orbit. Totally OT, but are the other planets described in the Realmspace Spelljammer accessory still there in 3E? Its very unlikely that a portal exists which would allow a shuttle to pass it. Launchign things into space is very complicated and the flight path can't be changed. Not to mention that you need detailed information about Torils mass, gravitation, etc to make satelites work.
Necrontyr 05-08-04, 01:16 PM	I'm sure we'd find a way for something so critical to our way of fighting. Would it possible to lauch a shuttle from an aeroplane. I suppose you'd lose the plane but would it even be able to carry the boosters. Or, you could build the scaffold on the Faerun side of the portal and then wheel the shuttle through from the Faerunian side. But what do you think of my portal idea? If its done the Stargate way then you could have a vertical portal, simply mount it above the shuttle on Earth and flip it on its back on the Faerun. Same with launching missiles.
Kuje31 05-08-04, 01:18 PM	Originally posted by Necrontyr Aaah, but you could launch the rocket carrying the satelites from Earth through the portal and then into Torillian orbit. Totally OT, but are the other planets described in the Realmspace Spelljammer accessory still there in 3E? The other planets are given a small mention in the FRCS. Also El, Laeral, Qilue and maybe one or two of the other Chosen HAVE seen what a computer is and what it does. Sure they might not be able to build it but there are tons of people here on Earth that use them as well but can't build them. The've probably also seen what a gun is as well.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 02:14 PM	okay 1. most of these 'automatic win' things for Faerun seems to be involving high level mages and priests. to cast wieldskill as an arcane spell, the wizard needs to cast limited wish, which means that the mage needs to cast 7th level spells (minimum of 13th level for wizards, 14th for sorcerers.) and I don't think that's common enough to be a problem. 2. how can wieldskil be enough to make a modern weapon? an assult rifle for example. most modern weapons are made by high tech machinery and/or factories by programmed robots and many workers. how can wieldskill provide enough knowledge to make one and how can fabricate replicate one well enough? I don't think it can. Fabricate does just as well as a standard craft skill and I've never heard of anyone making a military grade weapon in any such fashion. 3. the most powerful mages in all of faerun are Mystra's Chosen and their enemies (like Szass, for example). How many of them are going to be making all these epic spells? Elminster and the Simbul, the two most powerful mages in faerun, can't even cast epic spells. how many mages are going to be higher than 40th level and can even make epic spells of the nature to the specifications that it could wreck as much havoc upon the terran population as has been claimed? Furthermore, an epic spell is both expensive and time consuming and exhausting, xp eliminating work and that is a lot of epic spells to come up with in a pinch. Especially since these epic mages are curing every plague and whatnot AND still causing havoc across entire cities. Despite HOW many castings/day? 4. Yes, learning magic is as easy as any other science. It takes years to learn but it still can be learned by anyone with a 10 INT or higher through time and work. Plus, there's still psionics, clerical worship, and the other spellcasting classes. Magic is not some unholy grail that takes eons to learn only by the best of the best. Otherwise, there'd be far fewer casters in Faerun. If Earth -were- smart, by the time the war started, we'd already have a few, at the very least, trained mages and priests that can cast spells. 5. if it's so easy for Faerunians to gain technological knowledge, then there's absolutely no reason why terrans can't get magical knowledge just as easily, if not more easily. Crafting modern weaponry is absolutely nothing like crafting Faerunian stuff. Most terran equipment are made in factories by high powered machines powered by computers. I'm not sure Fabricate can replicate factory conditions at all. 6. Even if an epic mage or mages attacked with all those terrible epic and high level spells, there's absolutely nothing stating that they'd take -every- contingency or follow through with it utterly. Mages are people too, even epic mages make mistakes. Furthermore, a lot of what was stated requires a lot of cooperation between all these high level mages as if they were just weapons of mass destruction and not simply powerful individuals. They're people whom are diplomatic and can talk and speak for themselves. There's nothing stating that we could strike a truce with one or a few of them or pit them against each other just as easily as they could do the same to us, magically or otherwise. Or even gain a number of allies. The battle is not one sided or clearly in anyone's favor. But just because the faerunians, particularly the mages, can do it, doesn't mean they will. Just because an epic, city devistating spell can be made, doesn't mean it will. In fact, Mystra would prevent it from being made, to help a war or not. (it _was_ the reason, or part of the reason that she banned 10+ level spells.)
Cunning Linguist 05-08-04, 02:25 PM	ow many of them are going to be making all these epic spells? Elminster and the Simbul, the two most powerful mages in faerun, can't even cast epic spells. The Simbul clearly has epic spellcasting, and has atleast 2 epic spells in Epic Level Handbook. As for these kind of casters not being random: A RANDOM encounter party of Shades has a 19 level wizard in there party.. thats right.. a RANDOM 19 level wizard. how many mages are going to be higher than 40th level and can even make epic spells of the nature to the specifications that it could wreck as much havoc upon the terran population as has been claimed? You just need normal level wizards to do this, or just a high level druid. In fact, Mystra would prevent it from being made, to help a war or not. (it _was_ the reason, or part of the reason that she banned 10+ level spells.) You can still cast 10 level spells in Faerun. Read Secrets of the Magister.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 02:31 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels okay 1. most of these 'automatic win' things for Faerun seems to be involving high level mages and priests. to cast wieldskill as an arcane spell, the wizard needs to cast limited wish, which means that the mage needs to cast 7th level spells (minimum of 13th level for wizards, 14th for sorcerers.) and I don't think that's common enough to be a problem. In Faerun such spellcasters are common. Besides Wieldskill has touch range so a 1st level cleric of Gond can cast it on the mage. 2. how can wieldskil be enough to make a modern weapon? an assult rifle for example. most modern weapons are made by high tech machinery and/or factories by programmed robots and many workers. how can wieldskill provide enough knowledge to make one and how can fabricate replicate one well enough? I don't think it can. Fabricate does just as well as a standard craft skill and I've never heard of anyone making a military grade weapon in any such fashion. Andamaintium swords are also military grade weapons. Wieldskill gives the knoledge how to make them, fabricate takes care of the manufacturing process and Ignore Material Components (epic) takes care of all advanced materials. 3. the most powerful mages in all of faerun are Mystra's Chosen and their enemies (like Szass, for example). How many of them are going to be making all these epic spells? Elminster and the Simbul, the two most powerful mages in faerun, can't even cast epic spells. how many mages are going to be higher than 40th level and can even make epic spells of the nature to the specifications that it could wreck as much havoc upon the terran population as has been claimed? Furthermore, an epic spell is both expensive and time consuming and exhausting, xp eliminating work and that is a lot of epic spells to come up with in a pinch. Especially since these epic mages are curing every plague and whatnot AND still causing havoc across entire cities. Despite HOW many castings/day? Lets see, Elmi, Simbul, Khelben, other of the 7 sisters I don't know the stats and level, Halastar, Larloch + Overmind, Szass Tam + Sulkir, the Haluraan Regents + all otehr high level Haluraan wizards, Great wyrm dragons of every kind (especially steel dragons). That adds up. And not every epic spell is expensive. Those with a very small casting DC are relativly cheap but have still effects which create havoc on earth troops. 4. Yes, learning magic is as easy as any other science. It takes years to learn but it still can be learned by anyone with a 10 INT or higher through time and work. Plus, there's still psionics, clerical worship, and the other spellcasting classes. Magic is not some unholy grail that takes eons to learn only by the best of the best. Otherwise, there'd be far fewer casters in Faerun. If Earth -were- smart, by the time the war started, we'd already have a few, at the very least, trained mages and priests that can cast spells. Faerun took thousands of years and several artifacts to develope magic to what it is now. How could earth learn the same ammount of magic in a short time? Yes, magic can be learned like every science but it would take earth also thousands of earth to master it as perfectly as faerun has it now. 5. if it's so easy for Faerunians to gain technological knowledge, then there's absolutely no reason why terrans can't get magical knowledge just as easily, if not more easily. Crafting modern weaponry is absolutely nothing like crafting Faerunian stuff. Most terran equipment are made in factories by high powered machines powered by computers. I'm not sure Fabricate can replicate factory conditions at all. No, earth can't simply learn magic. Magic > technology. Spells can help someone to understand technology, but no machine can make someone understand magic. And fabricate doesn't need to emulate factory conditions. The raw materials vanish and the desired product appears. 6. Even if an epic mage or mages attacked with all those terrible epic and high level spells, there's absolutely nothing stating that they'd take -every- contingency or follow through with it utterly. Mages are people too, even epic mages make mistakes. Furthermore, a lot of what was stated requires a lot of cooperation between all these high level mages as if they were just weapons of mass destruction and not simply powerful individuals. They're people whom are diplomatic and can talk and speak for themselves. There's nothing stating that we could strike a truce with one or a few of them or pit them against each other just as easily as they could do the same to us, magically or otherwise. Or even gain a number of allies. The battle is not one sided or clearly in anyone's favor. But just because the faerunians, particularly the mages, can do it, doesn't mean they will. Just because an epic, city devistating spell can be made, doesn't mean it will. In fact, Mystra would prevent it from being made, to help a war or not. (it _was_ the reason, or part of the reason that she banned 10+ level spells.) 10th level spells don't exist anymore and epic spells of mass destruction already exist. And it doesn't need many epic mages to level a modern city, it only takes one. And when earth is invading faerun the chances that you make friends there is very slim. Yes, epic magic can also make mistake. But when they fail to see a trap and die they only wake up from astral projecting unharmed.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 02:50 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. In Faerun such spellcasters are common. Besides Wieldskill has touch range so a 1st level cleric of Gond can cast it on the mage.[b] Andamaintium swords are also military grade weapons. Wieldskill gives the knoledge how to make them, fabricate takes care of the manufacturing process and Ignore Material Components (epic) takes care of all advanced materials. adamantium swordss are not automatic assult rifles "Fabricate takes care of it" doesn't mean that it completes a process that not even humans could do without tremendous mechanical help. Lets see, Elmi, Simbul, Khelben, other of the 7 sisters I don't know the stats and level, Halastar, Larloch + Overmind, Szass Tam + Sulkir, the Haluraan Regents + all otehr high level Haluraan wizards, Great wyrm dragons of every kind (especially steel dragons). That adds up. And not every epic spell is expensive. Those with a very small casting DC are relativly cheap but have still effects which create havoc on earth troops.[b] perhaps, but not enough to win an all out war against us. [b]Faerun took thousands of years and several artifacts to develope magic to what it is now. How could earth learn the same ammount of magic in a short time? Yes, magic can be learned like every science but it would take earth also thousands of earth to master it as perfectly as faerun has it now.[b] No, earth can't simply learn magic. Magic > technology. Spells can help someone to understand technology, but no machine can make someone understand magic. that's hooey. perhaps that might be required to turn earth into a magically oriented civilization. but not simply to get a number of powerful casting terran mages. And fabricate doesn't need to emulate factory conditions. The raw materials vanish and the desired product appears.[b] I'm not questioning what fabricate can do. The process of fabrication still requires the mage's knowledge and I don't think wieldskill can effectively give the mage the knowledge required. a few ranks I doubt will pull the weight. They can't even make decent basic Faerunian equipment without months-years of work. 4 ranks is apprentice level. 10th level spells don't exist anymore and epic spells of mass destruction already exist. And it doesn't need many epic mages to level a modern city, it only takes one. And when earth is invading faerun the chances that you make friends there is very slim. I doubt that very much. If earth invaded Faerun, that doesn't mean that everyone would be their enemy at once and all of them suddenly working together in perfect concert. Quite the opposite, in fact, for both sides. Yes, epic magic can also make mistake. But when they fail to see a trap and die they only wake up from astral projecting unharmed. and how long do you think they could keep doing that before someone figures out where they are and strike there? Using both advanced intelligence technology in concert with high powered divinations? One mage, even an epic mage can only do so much against so many people and only for so long a period of time before everyone is looking for them. Furthermore, how long and how many beatings do you think earth would withstand before "enough is enough" and antimagic (or even a mechanically created dead zone around terran populations) becomes commonplace? AND how many nonevil mages do you think would be willing to commit genocide on that scale?
Derren S. 05-08-04, 03:06 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels adamantium swordss are not automatic assult rifles "Fabricate takes care of it" doesn't mean that it completes a process that not even humans could do without tremendous mechanical help. A smith also don't make swords with his bare hands. He also uses tools, so fabricate is able to emulate tools used. And computerized factories are also only tools. perhaps, but not enough to win an all out war against us. More then enough to win an all out war against earth. Even a mid level mage can kill hundredst of soldiers. A epic mage can kill 10.000 soldiers a day with no problem. And ten high level wizards are enough to disrupt all supply lines earth has and without supply a modern army is useless. that's hooey. perhaps that might be required to turn earth into a magically oriented civilization. but not simply to get a number of powerful casting terran mages. You can't simply invent mathematics and begin to calculate chaos theory with complex algorithms a year later. But thats exactly what you seem to think how magic works. Yes, magic can be learned like a science. That means that you can't go from 0 to two thousands year of knowledge overnight. You have constantly to research so that you make slow advancments. I'm not questioning what fabricate can do. The process of fabrication still requires the mage's knowledge and I don't think wieldskill can effectively give the mage the knowledge required. a few ranks I doubt will pull the weight. They can't even make decent basic Faerunian equipment without months-years of work. 4 ranks is apprentice level. its 1/2 rank and a +5 bonus. If you think thats to low, how about a +30 ring the wizard makes? Also you are to fixed on this. Guns aren't needed to defeat earth. Magic is enough. I doubt that very much. If earth invaded Faerun, that doesn't mean that everyone would be their enemy at once and all of them suddenly working together in perfect concert. Quite the opposite, in fact, for both sides. Earth is united, so I don't see why Faerun wouldn't and how long do you think they could keep doing that before someone figures out where they are and strike there? Using both advanced intelligence technology in concert with high powered divinations? Earth has no high powered divinations. And with thechnology you can't find those wizards sitting on their demiplane. One mage, even an epic mage can only do so much against so many people and only for so long a period of time before everyone is looking for them. Furthermore, how long and how many beatings do you think earth would withstand before "enough is enough" and antimagic (or even a mechanically created dead zone around terran populations) becomes commonplace? Never, because earth has no acces to magic and machines can't create antimagic. Slowly I grow tired of people who try to give magic or photon torpedos to earth despite all common sense because they can't accept that magic is better than technology. We are talking about real earth invading Faerun. Our earth has NO magic period. If you think other then please show me a documented and general acceptet case of magic use on earth. (And don't start with Jesus or Merlin) AND how many nonevil mages do you think would be willing to commit genocide on that scale? What genocide? Killing the invading army who is destroying cities and killing the mundane soldiers of all countires they find doesn't qualify as genocide.
Damien_Hiro 05-08-04, 03:13 PM	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derren S. [B]In Faerun such spellcasters are common. Besides Wieldskill has touch range so a 1st level cleric of Gond can cast it on the mage.[b] Don't you think that you are making a first level spell a little too powerful? What skill will wield skill give you? Craft M16A4, 5.56mm, semi-automatic, three round burst, air cooled and gas operated rifle? Will Fabricate make the magazine, rounds and rifle or is that a seperate spell? Come on get serious. Even on Earth people do not make automatic weapons by them selves or with their their own hands. Magic is not all that powerful. Angel is right if Elminster can "nuke" us with magic, then why can't we build anti-magic devices? We have the technological capablity, all we need is a magic device to experiment on and with the tons of magic items that the Red Wizards are selling I am sure they would sell us a few for research.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 03:26 PM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro [QUOTE]Originally posted by Derren S. [B]In Faerun such spellcasters are common. Besides Wieldskill has touch range so a 1st level cleric of Gond can cast it on the mage.[b] Don't you think that you are making a first level spell a little too powerful? What skill will wield skill give you? Craft M16A4, 5.56mm, semi-automatic, three round burst, air cooled and gas operated rifle? Will Fabricate make the magazine, rounds and rifle or is that a seperate spell? Come on get serious. Even on Earth people do not make automatic weapons by them selves or with their their own hands. If the cleric choose so the spell gives exactly this skill. Also why is this spell to powerfull? it gives +5 and 1/2 rank on a skill of your chioce for 1 minute/level. And fabricate creates what you want it to create and have the material for. When you want it to create a fully loaded M16A4 then it does so. A baker doesn't create bread with his hands so fabricate is unable to create bread? Nearly everyone uses tools to craft and fabricate can emulate this tools. And machines are tools. Besides, how do you know assault rifles can't be made by hand? Magic is not all that powerful. Angel is right if Elminster can "nuke" us with magic, then why can't we build anti-magic devices? We have the technological capablity, all we need is a magic device to experiment on and with the tons of magic items that the Red Wizards are selling I am sure they would sell us a few for research. Show me a single rule where you can create a magical effect with thechnology and show me a single machine on earth who has the ability to emulate magic. (So much about our technical capability). It doesn't work which means no technological antimagic.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 03:29 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. More then enough to win an all out war against earth. Even a mid level mage can kill hundredst of soldiers. A epic mage can kill 10.000 soldiers a day with no problem. And ten high level wizards are enough to disrupt all supply lines earth has and without supply a modern army is useless.[b] I don't think so. Just because a mage shows up doesn't mean he's invaulnerable or that the terran army is dumb enough just to sit there and keep firing their guns at him/her. The military is adaptable enough to compensate for whatever they're fighting. You can't simply invent mathematics and begin to calculate chaos theory with complex algorithms a year later. But thats exactly what you seem to think how magic works. Yes, magic can be learned like a science. That means that you can't go from 0 to two thousands year of knowledge overnight. You have constantly to research so that you make slow advancments.[b] no, you can't learn 2000 years of magical advancement overnight. but by that very same logic, no one these modern days could learn to do anything because they didn't learn 5000 years of human technological history. oh wait. they can. Magic is no different in that respect. otherwise every mage would have to be fluent in 2k years of faerunian magical history. but they obviously don't have to be. they go to their master, school, or mage college and get taught by a teacher as an apprentice or student. terran pre-mages can be taught in the same manner by anyone captured by us or otherwise collaborating with us. In fact, all of that would likely already be done by the time the war actually started because we aren't dumb enough to go into a war against an enemy we can't defend against. With magic, particularly abjuration magic, we can make use of all of the magical protections, especially antimagic field in combination with our technological prowress to achieve invincibility against all but epic magic. its 1/2 rank and a +5 bonus. If you think thats to low, how about a +30 ring the wizard makes?wouldn't a wizard need to know the spell in order to make the ring? How many 13th level wizards in the world are there? how many of those would actually bother with this? How many of htem would know a cleric of gond enough to know that the spell even exists? Also you are to fixed on this. Guns aren't needed to defeat earth. Magic is enough.[b] magic is not enough in and of itself. like technology, its secrets can be stolen, bought, or otherwise taken and used in our favor, even before the war actually begins. You count too much on us attacking blindly and not attacking with any amount of stratagy or intelligence but giving these mages all of both as well as knowledge of every spell in existance and instant colaboration with many, many more mages. Earth is united, so I don't see why Faerun wouldn't[b] no no no no no we're talking about individual mages. not nations. even if the nations of faerun are united, that is to say nothing of the individuals within it. especially those such as the sorcerers, wizards, and psions inhabiting those nations. There is nothing stating that these mages are instantly loyal to any of these nations. Particularly the nonlawful and/or nongood mages. Earth has no high powered divinations. And with thechnology you can't find those wizards sitting on their demiplane.[b] mages collaborating or terrans trained by collaborating mages can acheive those results. Never, because earth has no acces to magic and machines can't create antimagic.[b] the weave does exist on earth and was even stated as so from an official source. I remember someone stating that from much earlier in this thread. if that's true and we did interact with faerun at all, then we have mages on our side enough to know about anti-magic and dead magic zones and there is -nothing- stating that technology can't manipulate magic and nothing saying that we couldn't develop such technology.
Ruler of All Beer Mugs 05-08-04, 03:33 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Disease: When earth uses Bioweapons a epic mage just creates a epic spell which cleanses a big area of disease. Its not really a problem. How long does it take to research and develop an epic spell? The Soviet Union produced hundreds of tons of weaponized smallpox using enhanced bioengineered cultures with an incubation period of only 1-5 days. And that's just one disease. Add in ebola, bubonic plague, SARS, influenza, and other diseases and half of the humanlike inhabitants of Faerun are infected before the epic mage or cleric even realizes that it would be a good idea to start researching a new spell. Remember, bioweapons are artificially spread everywhere at the same time to maximize lethality. Only a fraction of the population will remain alive by the time the "mass cure disease" epic level spell is ready to go.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 03:35 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Show me a single rule where you can create a magical effect with thechnology and show me a single machine on earth who has the ability to emulate magic. (So much about our technical capability). It doesn't work which means no technological antimagic. no, it just means that there is no magic in real life. that means nothing if we actually -could- get to faerun, let alone war with faerun. plus, it would mean that magic exists and is manipulatable by human hands. which also means that... we can and would build machines to manipulate magic as well.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 03:41 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels I don't think so. Just because a mage shows up doesn't mean he's invaulnerable or that the terran army is dumb enough just to sit there and keep firing their guns at him/her. The military is adaptable enough to compensate for whatever they're fighting. Te mage would be invisible floating above the enemy dominating them into killing each other, summoning elementals and raising undead. The army doesn't even know that he is there. no, you can't learn 2000 years of magical advancement overnight. but by that very same logic, no one these modern days could learn to do anything because they didn't learn 5000 years of human technological history. oh wait. they can. Magic is no different in that respect. otherwise every mage would have to be fluent in 2k years of faerunian magical history. but they obviously don't have to be. they go to their master, school, or mage college and get taught by a teacher as an apprentice or student. terran pre-mages can be taught in the same manner by anyone captured by us or otherwise collaborating with us. In fact, all of that would likely already be done by the time the war actually started because we aren't dumb enough to go into a war against an enemy we can't defend against. With magic, particularly abjuration magic, we can make use of all of the magical protections, especially antimagic field in combination with our technological prowress to achieve invincibility against all but epic magic. Capturing a wizard high enough to teach is nearly impossible without magical aid. He would simply teleport away. And why would amges collaborate with earth? They have nothing to giva a mgae because magic is better than everything earth has to give. wouldn't a wizard need to know the spell in order to make the ring? How many 13th level wizards in the world are there? how many of those would actually bother with this? How many of htem would know a cleric of gond enough to know that the spell even exists? Limited wish takes care of the spell. And when creating a +skill item you need the skill, not the spell Wieldskill. And lvl 13 wizards number tens of thousands in the realms. magic is not enough in and of itself. like technology, its secrets can be stolen, bought, or otherwise taken and used in our favor, even before the war actually begins. You count too much on us attacking blindly and not attacking with any amount of stratagy or intelligence but giving these mages all of both as well as knowledge of every spell in existance and instant colaboration with many, many more mages. And you count to much that mages will give earth all secrets they have. This will simply not happen. Magic is more than enough to stop a technological army. And with magic you can divine the strategy and time of attack the earth chooses, making any amount of planing from earth useless. mages collaborating or terrans trained by collaborating mages can acheive those results. I ask again, why should these mages cooporate with earth (and avoid beeing killes as traitor)? the weave does exist on earth and was even stated as so from an official source. I remember someone stating that from much earlier in this thread. if that's true and we did interact with faerun at all, then we have mages on our side enough to know about anti-magic and dead magic zones and there is -nothing- stating that technology can't manipulate magic and nothing saying that we couldn't develop such technology. What has the weave not existing on earth to do with this? The weave only exists on Faerun. Magic still works on earth but mankind is simply to dumb to use it. There is nothing that says that technology can manipulate magic and that you can create technological devices which affect magic. And that is what counts.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 03:56 PM	Originally posted by Ruler of All Beer Mugs How long does it take to research and develop an epic spell? The Soviet Union produced hundreds of tons of weaponized smallpox using enhanced bioengineered cultures with an incubation period of only 1-5 days. And that's just one disease. Add in ebola, bubonic plague, SARS, influenza, and other diseases and half of the humanlike inhabitants of Faerun are infected before the epic mage or cleric even realizes that it would be a good idea to start researching a new spell. Remember, bioweapons are artificially spread everywhere at the same time to maximize lethality. Only a fraction of the population will remain alive by the time the "mass cure disease" epic level spell is ready to go. Here a hastely made epic spell. I'm sure someone with more experience than me can do it better, but this spell also works. Supreme Heal Seeds, Energy (fog), Heal Energy (free), Fog (25), Heal (25), Range +4. Migating Factors: 1w6 backlash damage -5, ritual casting 4x7 level slot -52 Final spellcraft DC 1 Cost to create 9000 gp and 360 XP Time to create 1 day. Casting time 10 minutes. This spell fills the area in a 4 miles radius with fog. Everything the fog touches he healed from every disease it is currently afflicted. The range of this spell can easily be increased (+4 for an additional 2 mile radius) and when you drop the DC below 0 it can be developed instantly with no cost at all.
Mirtek 05-08-04, 04:09 PM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale And Mystra has the right if she so chooses to cut people off from the Weave as long as it is a very good reason. If she believes it is being overly abused or used over excessively she can cut them off indiffenently if it calls for it. Usually though she only reserves that power for severe cases such as people causing significant damage to the Weave. No she has not. Her duty is to provide access to the weave to everyone, without regard to how the individual is using the weave. She can dislike the way someone use her weave as much as she likes to, she can't cut someone from the weave for this reason. Only is someone damages the weave she can kick him. If a vile caster use the weave to wreak havok and unimagineable slaughter among the helpless, Mystra is not allowed to kick him for this, the Circle of Greater Gods made this painfully clear to her.Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale I have never heard of any gods turning against Mystra. She is the greater deity of magic and if she cuts everyone off from the Weave, I think that counts the gods if she so chooses. Plus here would be her bargaining chip. If I go I take the Weave with me. She can if she wishes just let the Weave go and faulter into nothing. What god could stop her? But that is only in a drastic senerio that I don't care to get in an argument over. As long as she has all the gods of magic on her side, which Azuth is always going to be, your not going to intimidate her. Plus she gots some of the most powerful Chosen in the Realms to call on for aid and protection if she needs it. Hey if you can point out a book that has when Mystra was specifically challenged by 5 gods and it says it in a source book I'll concede this argument. But I have looked through the timeline throughly and haven't found when that ever happened. All I was saying that evil casters would probably be on a sort rope held by not just good people but by neutral ones as well in order to keep balance. Go and read Crucible:The Trial of Cyric the Mad, there you can see yourself how Mystra, during her first years as goddess of Magic, tried to make magic to her liking, through making it good and making war magic and evil magic almost impossible and how the Circle of Greater Gods reacted and Mystra finally had to follow their orders. Also see Magic of Faerun: Mystra may cut a god from the Weave, but the god in question wouldn't really notice the difference. The Weave is only on Faerun and does not extend into the planes and a god cut from the weave would only be prevented from using magic on Faerun, but nowhere else. And since gods do not enter Faerun anyway, it doesn't matter at all whether Mystra cuts him from the weave or not.
Ramius_Mordale 05-08-04, 04:30 PM	Whoa time out. So when did the rules only work for FR and not for us? Just cause it doesn't say it means it can't happen? As I recall there are those who can manipulate magic with technology. In the Magic of Faerun, a Gnome Artificer can make tech oriented weapons with merely having knowledge of 1st level arcane magic. It doesn't take years to figure out a 1st level magic if you were devoted enough time and energy to learn how to use it. That would mean scientist would most likely be able to create a kind of varient of the Gnome Artificer and make tech that could literally bend and manipulate magic and magical effects. And I believe I stated that you can understand how to use the weapon, but it will still take time to actually learn how to make it. No matter amount of magic you use will allow to make an exact duplicate with just a few minutes of knowledge. Remember that its benefit goes away after the duration is over. Meaning they won't even remember how they made it, if they even could in the sort amount of time. Plus a +30 ring of Gunsmithing makes really nice guns no doubt, but it doesn't mean you know hundreds of years of advanced tech as well. You still have to learn how to advance past where you are at in tech. They not only have to learn gunsmithing, but clockworking so much so that they can make really tiny gears and springs that can fit in a watch. Think I'm being unrealistic, look at the history of how tech developed in our own world. We just didn't have AK-47s and M-16s over night. Personally, I just heard of this new Wieldskill spell so I'm going to read up on it. I think you are really over powering it a bit especially for a first level spell as what you can discribe it can do. If this is the case, that spell was not tested correctly and should be bumped up to a 3rd or greater spell selection. And if you disagree with me on that, 3.5 made spiderclimb a 2nd level spell. Feel free to disagree with me but that should be a higher level spell if it can do as much as you say it can do. One thing I want to note is that Gond worshippers aren't on every block of Faerun. They primarily are on Lantan and Lantan is a very isolated island nation. But I will concede there are probably a few roming about the country side. But there isn't thousand of clerics out there to do all that work you speak of. Okay just checked up on that spell Wieldskill. Here is as follows: 1) You need to be an initiate of Gond to cast the spell in the first place. Which means they have to spend the feat for it. That means not every Gond cleric may have access to this spell. 2) Wieldskill does as you said, but only to a Craft skill check. Not actually giving you the know how to build it. Just a bonus to making it. So that would mean they still don't have the knowledge how to make it cause first they don't have technology to that level. They might figure out how to do the less compliciated parts of the weapon, but there is so many gears and springs that do so much at one time its mind boggling to those that have never gotten to that level of thought. Sure it will help you out a bit in figuring out how to make it. But they will still have to make multiple crafting checks over a few hundred years to figure out the level of technology. Going with FR making tanks, helis, plane, etc.... they haven't built any oil rigs that pump for oil yet. But to counter this a magic device could be made to do this, but that takes more wizards away from the fight to do this. Which means less people fighting us.......That probably wouldn't be good for them. Also this question is directed at Cunning_Linguist, I need to know that that source you gave is a sourcebook or a novel and how recent in the timeline it represents. I am sure still that 11+ spells are banned from being casted. This DOES NOT include 10 level spells however. Reason being why 11+ spells was banned was because of Karsus 12th level spell Karsus's Avatar. I do know this however that the Magister does know all spells past and present. This being though, he still needs permission to from whoever made a new spell, before teaching anyone else the spell. So epic spells can be casted just nothing above 11+ spell level. Unless of course your the Magister but as I recall, no Magister exists during the current year in FR. That would be the year 1373 for those who don't know. Well looks like there is a good debate going on here. A lot of good points so keep up the good work. Gotta go for now. Adios.:D
Ramius_Mordale 05-08-04, 04:34 PM	Thanks Mirtek I'll check that out. Yeah I think I remember something about a trail when she took over after the Time of Troubles. LOL Faerun is hard enough to keep on much less the gods crap as well. Well I'll definiately check out that book. Do you have anymore book suggestions on for the FR that a must read? Althought if this violates the new rule set about not talking about novels please just ignore this part of the post. But yeah thanks again.:D
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 04:34 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Te mage would be invisible floating above the enemy dominating them into killing each other, summoning elementals and raising undead. The army doesn't even know that he is there.[b] and those mages are avoiding being shot how? are all of those spells being cast as silent, stilled spells? they might cause some damage, but how are these creatures not being killed immediately on sight? You summon a greater earth elemental... big whoop. they get mowed down by a high powered gattling gun. Incorpereal undead? Capturing a wizard high enough to teach is nearly impossible without magical aid. He would simply teleport away. And why would amges collaborate with earth? They have nothing to giva a mgae because magic is better than everything earth has to give.[b] all it would take is one. or hell, just purchasing the knowledge and expertise as any standard mage student in the realms and then, in return, teaching more people on earth in the same manner would work just as well. just because it is magic doesn't mean it's special in a land where it is reletively common. besides, teleport requires verbal component. Limited wish takes care of the spell. And when creating a +skill item you need the skill, not the spell Wieldskill. And lvl 13 wizards number tens of thousands in the realms.[b] it takes -days- to make an item and you need ranks in the skill in order to do that. that's far more limited wishes than any mage can cast. [b]And you count to much that mages will give earth all secrets they have. This will simply not happen. Magic is more than enough to stop a technological army. And with magic you can divine the strategy and time of attack the earth chooses, making any amount of planing from earth useless.[b] they don't need to give all the secrets they can give. or even half. does a mage teach an apprentice his most powerful or valuable spells? no. They teach the basics. The terrans can directly research the remaining. Hell, with sorcerers and psions, this isn't even a problem because their ability to use the art isn't even researched. I ask again, why should these mages cooporate with earth (and avoid beeing killes as traitor)?[b] who knows. they're individuals. they might just because they believe that it'll stop the war. maybe they're just evil and want the army to kill as many people as possible. In any case, you can't count on -every mage- in faerun working to stop the terrans, especially if the terrans are smart enough to build a magical defense before the war even begins. because it isn't wise to fight an enemy you can't defend against. It isn't a far stretch to think that we'd have a heat-vision goggles of detect invisibility. and a semi-automated rifle +1 as the war begins. it isn't about being diplomatic like nation to nation. mages are individuals with their own goals and desires. What has the weave not existing on earth to do with this? The weave only exists on Faerun. Magic still works on earth but mankind is simply to dumb to use it. There is nothing that says that technology can manipulate magic and that you can create technological devices which affect magic. And that is what counts. the weave exists on earth. I never said that it didn't. I believe someone stated earlier on this thread that elminster had actually travelled to earth, dragonlance, and the Flanaess as well, among other settings and setting worlds.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 04:45 PM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale Whoa time out. So when did the rules only work for FR and not for us? Just cause it doesn't say it means it can't happen? As I recall there are those who can manipulate magic with technology. In the Magic of Faerun, a Gnome Artificer can make tech oriented weapons with merely having knowledge of 1st level arcane magic. It doesn't take years to figure out a 1st level magic if you were devoted enough time and energy to learn how to use it. That would mean scientist would most likely be able to create a kind of varient of the Gnome Artificer and make tech that could literally bend and manipulate magic and magical effects. But the thing an artificer can make is still very limited and still magic. And earth still has to learn the basics of spellcasting first before learning 1st level spells. And I believe I stated that you can understand how to use the weapon, but it will still take time to actually learn how to make it. No matter amount of magic you use will allow to make an exact duplicate with just a few minutes of knowledge. Remember that its benefit goes away after the duration is over. Meaning they won't even remember how they made it, if they even could in the sort amount of time. Plus a +30 ring of Gunsmithing makes really nice guns no doubt, but it doesn't mean you know hundreds of years of advanced tech as well. You still have to learn how to advance past where you are at in tech. They not only have to learn gunsmithing, but clockworking so much so that they can make really tiny gears and springs that can fit in a watch. Think I'm being unrealistic, look at the history of how tech developed in our own world. We just didn't have AK-47s and M-16s over night. Wildskill improves your craft gun skill. And this skill represents your knowledge about building guns. Knowing how to use a weapon is the secondary function of the skill (profency with a weapon) but that is not required to make them. Personally, I just heard of this new Wieldskill spell so I'm going to read up on it. I think you are really over powering it a bit especially for a first level spell as what you can discribe it can do. If this is the case, that spell was not tested correctly and should be bumped up to a 3rd or greater spell selection. And if you disagree with me on that, 3.5 made spiderclimb a 2nd level spell. Feel free to disagree with me but that should be a higher level spell if it can do as much as you say it can do. Wieldskill already was nerfed quite a bit from 3.0 it gave a +10 bonus back there. Also of course the cleric can't give himself skills in thing which don't exist but when the cleric has a captured weapon I don't see why not he should give himself the knowledge how to build it. One thing I want to note is that Gond worshippers aren't on every block of Faerun. They primarily are on Lantan and Lantan is a very isolated island nation. But I will concede there are probably a few roming about the country side. But there isn't thousand of clerics out there to do all that work you speak of. Thats why you order several wands with this spell from them. And limited wish can also get you this spell. 2) Wieldskill does as you said, but only to a Craft skill check. Not actually giving you the know how to build it. Just a bonus to making it. So that would mean they still don't have the knowledge how to make it cause first they don't have technology to that level. They might figure out how to do the less compliciated parts of the weapon, but there is so many gears and springs that do so much at one time its mind boggling to those that have never gotten to that level of thought. Fabricate asks for a craft check and when you pass it you can make the item. The craft skill represents your knowledge how to build the product. And the wizard doesn't have to know how to build all the fine parts he only has to know where to put them. Fabricate takes care of the rest. Going with FR making tanks, helis, plane, etc.... they haven't built any oil rigs that pump for oil yet. But to counter this a magic device could be made to do this, but that takes more wizards away from the fight to do this. Which means less people fighting us.......That probably wouldn't be good for them. As I already said, making guns isn't neccessary. the magical power is better spend otherwise. And making war machines is useless because no one can use them and learning to use them takes much longer than for guns. Also this question is directed at Cunning_Linguist, I need to know that that source you gave is a sourcebook or a novel and how recent in the timeline it represents. I am sure still that 11+ spells are banned from being casted. This DOES NOT include 10 level spells however. Reason being why 11+ spells was banned was because of Karsus 12th level spell Karsus's Avatar. I know I am not Linguist, but imo there is evidence that 3.5 has rewritten the realmslore so that 11+ level spell never existed, seeing that old netherese spells are now epic magic and arcanists is suddenly a epic PRC.
Kuje31 05-08-04, 04:49 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels the weave exists on earth. I never said that it didn't. I believe someone stated earlier on this thread that elminster had actually travelled to earth, dragonlance, and the Flanaess as well, among other settings and setting worlds. [/B] No what I said is that yes he has traveled to those places but the Weave DOES NOT exist on Earth any more then it does on the Planes, or Krynn, or Greyhawk, or any of the vast prime worlds, but magic itself does exist on those worlds, or the planes, but it has nothing to do with the Weave/Shadow Weave. Sigh Weave/Shadow Weave are Faerun/Toril/Realmspace only, depending on which 2e, 3e, and 3.5 book you want to look in.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 04:54 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels and those mages are avoiding being shot how? are all of those spells being cast as silent, stilled spells? they might cause some damage, but how are these creatures not being killed immediately on sight? You summon a greater earth elemental... big whoop. they get mowed down by a high powered gattling gun. Incorpereal undead? Incorporal undead would be overkill. A bigger earth elemental has the DR to soak up much of the damage done to it and has enough HP to stay alive long enough to kill 10-20 or so soldiers. The mage stays alive by constantly changing his position while letting his protection from arrows soak up any streay shots. And because he is invisible still spell is not needed and when the soldiers below him are panickally shooting at the hughe fire elemental which appeared in the middle of their rows silent spell isn't needed too. all it would take is one. or hell, just purchasing the knowledge and expertise as any standard mage student in the realms and then, in return, teaching more people on earth in the same manner would work just as well. just because it is magic doesn't mean it's special in a land where it is reletively common. besides, teleport requires verbal component. How should a mage teach you magic when he can't speak? Also that are many ifs. Don't forget that when earth reveals himself this way many (evil) people might get the idea that invading earth is a cakewalk because they have no magic and assault them. it takes -days- to make an item and you need ranks in the skill in order to do that. that's far more limited wishes than any mage can cast. Thats why you take a gond cleric for that work. Or a gunsmith from Lantan. they don't need to give all the secrets they can give. or even half. does a mage teach an apprentice his most powerful or valuable spells? no. They teach the basics. The terrans can directly research the remaining. Hell, with sorcerers and psions, this isn't even a problem because their ability to use the art isn't even researched.(/quote] Only that earth has no Sorcerers and Psions. And researching magic to a level that it can combat faerun magic will still take hundreds of years.[quote] the weave exists on earth. I never said that it didn't. I believe someone stated earlier on this thread that elminster had actually travelled to earth, dragonlance, and the Flanaess as well, among other settings and setting worlds. No, the weave exists only on Toril. Every other plane has a different source of magic.
Cunning Linguist 05-08-04, 05:05 PM	I know I am not Linguist, but imo there is evidence that 3.5 has rewritten the realmslore so that 11+ level spell never existed, seeing that old netherese spells are now epic magic and arcanists is suddenly a epic PRC. No, there is no rewritting, no undoing, no fixing, no nothing on how this happend. In Secrets of the Magister, we learn that there never was a BAN on spells, but that Mystra took away the symbols used to cast these spells, and made new ones instead. These new symbols are not known, and therefore you can't cast spells of these levels. People belived that there was a ban, since when they tried to cast these spells, they fizzeld, and did not work, but that a spell fizzeled and did not work, does not mean that is was banned, but rather that the mage casting it, did not cast it right. There is no ban in the weave itself, it has to do with magical symbols and there use. With epic magic you can cast these spells that where changed, by using seeds of the spells, and mimicking the spells power, with other symbols that where not changed. To learn more about this, read Ed Greenwoods sourcebook, Secrets of the Magister (http://www.wizards.com/catalog/product.asp?TSR11430).
Ramius_Mordale 05-08-04, 05:29 PM	Hmm....interesting. I didn't know that, but thanks for the hook up Cunning_Linguist. As for the gnome artificer example I gave, I'm sure technology could effect magic, if we had the knowledge of its basic prinicples. After all even if magic exists outside the norm of physics it still has a science of its own. A pattern that it adhere's too. Derren S. I pretty sure you would still have to cast multiple uses of the spell in order to create the gun, the ammo and the tools required to achieve making the gun and ammo. I didn't say it was impossible just that I thought it would take them a few hundred years. You are correct though that it does make you proficient of whatever weapon or armor you are you are holding/wearing. As many people have noted, they are made in factories, modern weapons that is. It would take considerable time and energy to make such an elebroate set up of tools. Though for the sake of argument further, I suppose a modern gun could be assembled with multiple castings of the fabricate spell. But it would be much more time consuming. But anyways, I would agree FR would not waste time and resources learning a whole new level of tech. Earth on the other hand could probably learn first level spells within a few years if they devoted a considerable amount of resources towards discovering its secret. Just one thing I want to point out about psionics here on Earth. There have been actual studies pertaining to the theory and scientist believe that some people may have this ability but to a limited degree. After all, we as human beings only use around 10% of actual brain power normally. Which could mean that psionics are possible for us. Also to note a brief thing about magic that might actually be on Earth. It says in the Bible that Priests of Bhaal were able to use sorcery to cast lightning bolts. Be it as it may, there is some sources that say magic did exist at one point or another on Earth, but you could take it as a grain of salt as well. Personally, I don't think magic actually exists in the real world. But hey some people do and they have that choice to. Well anyways thats my few sliver worth for right now.:)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 05:35 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Incorporal undead would be overkill. A bigger earth elemental has the DR to soak up much of the damage done to it and has enough HP to stay alive long enough to kill 10-20 or so soldiers. The mage stays alive by constantly changing his position while letting his protection from arrows soak up any streay shots. And because he is invisible still spell is not needed and when the soldiers below him are panickally shooting at the hughe fire elemental which appeared in the middle of their rows silent spell isn't needed too.[b] if protection from -arrows- even holds up to bullets, then it'd go down fast or he'd escape to avoid death fast enough to be unable to cause any major damage. How should a mage teach you magic when he can't speak? Also that are many ifs. Don't forget that when earth reveals himself this way many (evil) people might get the idea that invading earth is a cakewalk because they have no magic and assault them.[b] invading earth is gonna be a real trick for these mages to do if they can't even use the weave or shadow weave that they -depend on- for use. there isn't a wizard or sorcerer on faerun that doesn't use the weave or shadow weave. Thats why you take a gond cleric for that work. Or a gunsmith from Lantan.[b] to make what? muskets? phht. assult rifles aren't something that can be made in this manner very well, if at all. No, the weave exists only on Toril. Every other plane has a different source of magic. then that eliminates any possibility of any mage going to earth for any reason. especially a destructive one.
Kuje31 05-08-04, 05:44 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels then that eliminates any possibility of any mage going to earth for any reason. especially a destructive one. [/B] How so? There is still magic on the planes, Earth, Greyhawk, etc, but it does NOT come from the Weave/Shadow Weave.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 05:45 PM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale It says in the Bible that Priests of Bhaal were able to use sorcery to cast lightning bolts. Be it as it may, there is some sources that say magic did exist at one point or another on Earth, but you could take it as a grain of salt as well. Actually that is also a interesting topic. At least the christian parts of the world regard magic as evil work of satan. So it is unlikely that they will use it. (many US D&D players will know how far this can get). I don't know how this is with the other majoer religions.
Derren S. 05-08-04, 05:49 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels if protection from -arrows- even holds up to bullets, then it'd go down fast or he'd escape to avoid death fast enough to be unable to cause any major damage. PfA works against all ranged attacks including bullets. And because the wizard is invisibls he doesn't recive targeted bursts but only stray shots which the PfA can block for a long time. invading earth is gonna be a real trick for these mages to do if they can't even use the weave or shadow weave that they -depend on- for use. there isn't a wizard or sorcerer on faerun that doesn't use the weave or shadow weave. Magic stil works on earth normally, Mystra only has no controll over it. to make what? muskets? phht. assult rifles aren't something that can be made in this manner very well, if at all. Its the same principe and enough to make a knowledge enhancing item. then that eliminates any possibility of any mage going to earth for any reason. especially a destructive one. Like it was said before, magic works on earth normally.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 05:55 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 How so? There is still magic on the planes, Earth, Greyhawk, etc, but it does NOT come from the Weave/Shadow Weave. okay, then how are Faerunian mages useing them to cast spells? Faerunian mages require the weave or shadow weave to work their spells. Not "earthweave" or "earth magic" or whatever it is.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 06:03 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. PfA works against all ranged attacks including bullets. And because the wizard is invisibls he doesn't recive targeted bursts but only stray shots which the PfA can block for a long time.[b] but it will fail and that goes under the assumption that the terrans aren't bothering to attack the mage. The mage'd have to be constantly on the move and that's assuming that the soldiers are too stupid to attack a mage. invisible or not. in fact, it's a DC 20 spot check to find one. Moving around would only make the mage more visible and staying in one place and casting would still generate noise and disturb the space around the caster. That's more than enough to bring an entire base around the caster in no time. Magic stil works on earth normally, Mystra only has no controll over it.[b] but if there's no weave on earth, then the mages can't cast any spells. mages in faerun are trained from day one to use the weave and, in fact, all arcane spells require either the shadow weave or the standard weave to use. Its the same principe and enough to make a knowledge enhancing item.[b] that still doesn't mean that they can produce factory grade weaponry. The crafting skill would have to be good enough for fabricate equipment that even humans cannot forge with their own hands. Crafting skills and crafting tools are a wholly different monstser from a computer run factory and fabrication is a spell to merely make crafting faster.
Kuje31 05-08-04, 06:06 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels okay, then how are Faerunian mages useing them to cast spells? Faerunian mages require the weave or shadow weave to work their spells. Not "earthweave" or "earth magic" or whatever it is. The same way those casters use the magic on the planes. It just comes from the planes themselves, or in the case of Krynn it comes from the three lunar deities of magic, or in Greyhawk it comes from some where but not the Weave/Shadow Weave, or on Earth it is the same as Greyhawk, it just exists but does not need the Weave/Shadow Weave to cast. The Weave/Shadow Weave have always been Realmspace/Toril/Faerun specific, depending on which 2e, 3e, 3.5 sourcebook you want to use. It's not true that arcane or divine casters cannot cast magic without the Weave/Shadow Weave because those casters can cast on the Planes (yes even in 3e's FR planes this still holds true), on Greyhawk, on Krynn, etc, where those two Weaves DO NOT exist.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 06:14 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 The same way those casters use the magic on the planes. It just comes from the planes themselves, or in the case of Krynn it comes from the three lunar deities of magic, or in Greyhawk it comes from some where but not the Weave/Shadow Weave, or on Earth it is the same as Greyhawk, it just exists but does not need the Weave/Shadow Weave to cast. The Weave/Shadow Weave have always been Realmspace/Toril/Faerun specific, depending on which 2e, 3e, 3.5 sourcebook you want to use. It's not true that arcane or divine casters cannot cast magic without the Weave/Shadow Weave because those casters can cast on the Planes (yes even in 3e's FR planes this still holds true), on Greyhawk, on Krynn, etc, where those two Weaves DO NOT exist. hmm. I always figured that Faerun did have that sort of magic, but in the form of "raw magic" which no mortal can wield. Which the weave and... whenever I say "weave" from now on, I'll also be referring to the shadow weave. It's a pain. anyway, as I was saying, I didn't think that the mages from Faerun could wield nonweave magic because, while similar, would require different methods to work. Like using two computers to run one machine, but each computer has different software. Earth has a mac with a "unisoftware" and Faerun has an Old Windows system, one that uses "Windows" as an interface to control DOS, which no mortal can wield and each would require seporate training to use effectively. Though computers are a bad example because they're all user friendly to some degree. (though I might be closer to the mark than I think.)
Kuje31 05-08-04, 06:30 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels hmm. I always figured that Faerun did have that sort of magic, but in the form of "raw magic" which no mortal can wield. Which the weave and... whenever I say "weave" from now on, I'll also be referring to the shadow weave. It's a pain. anyway, as I was saying, I didn't think that the mages from Faerun could wield nonweave magic because, while similar, would require different methods to work. Like using two computers to run one machine, but each computer has different software. Earth has a mac with a "unisoftware" and Faerun has an Old Windows system, one that uses "Windows" as an interface to control DOS, which no mortal can wield and each would require seporate training to use effectively. Though computers are a bad example because they're all user friendly to some degree. (though I might be closer to the mark than I think.) Then no divine or arcane casters from Faerun would be able to cast spells on the planes either in 2e's Multiverse or 3e's tree planes, which is not the case, since neither Weaves extend to the planes, so sayeth Rich, SKR, Ed, and numerous 2e and 3/3.5 sourcebooks. So yes divine and arcane casters from Faerun are ONLY dependent on the Weaves when on/in Realmspace/Toril/Faerun.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 06:45 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Then no divine or arcane casters from Faerun would be able to cast spells on the planes either in 2e's Multiverse or 3e's tree planes, which is not the case, since neither Weaves extend to the planes, so sayeth Rich, SKR, Ed, and numerous 2e and 3/3.5 sourcebooks. So yes divine and arcane casters from Faerun are ONLY dependent on the Weaves when on/in Realmspace/Toril/Faerun. okay. thanks for fully clarifying that point. EDIT: it actually points out to me that Mystra has far less control over high level mages than I thought, beyond using her godly senses to know that it is being developed weeks before it happens.
Kuje31 05-08-04, 07:05 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels okay. thanks for fully clarifying that point. EDIT: it actually points out to me that Mystra has far less control over high level mages than I thought, beyond using her godly senses to know that it is being developed weeks before it happens. Well she has absolute control of Weave magic when on/in Realmspace/Toril/Faerun. Just like the three lunar deities of Krynn do when in Krynnspace. No one has control over magic on the planes, except for Dweomerheart in 3/3.5's FR's Tree, but again that doesn't mean the Weave extends there.
Lokiyn 05-08-04, 07:38 PM	Hmm here is an idea If the Earthians run into the wizards of thay or the wizards of thay contact them its not total outside of the picture for them to form an alliance. Now imagine an adamantine golem equiped with the best weapons earthians can fit on it. Now a combination of rary's telepathic bond and some other spells link the golem to a pc back on earth. Ah can you feel the love as mechwarrior fans are offered positions in the military. Seriously i think there would be an initial thrust where earth would own followed by a counterstrike that would push them back maybe al the way to earth who knows. However the main difference between the two is that when faerunians get earth tech they don't have the infrastructure to support it but when earthians get magic they can use it to enhance thier already technalogical might. Can you see a +5 Vorpal M16? or worse... + remember that magic is an energy or force like magnetism or gravity depending on how much time earthians have to study it. Surely if you threw the entire military tech budgets into the scientific examination of magic, formulas could be constructed to contain and control the magic. That is earths biggest advantage. To earthians Magic is a force and it can be broken down and controled like any other force. To Faeruns Magic is an esoteric art. The Scientific method will eventually defeat the "Arts"
Shylo Slick 05-08-04, 08:38 PM	The God of our world, or Satan sticks every false diety, and so-called Overlord, and their boss, and their bosses boss and so on in a pit, or destroys them, or converts them, No Mystra, No Shar, NO MACIC, No Divine spells or intervention, except from our God, GAME OVER - We immigrate, conquer, destroy, and make alliance at will, Elminster is hired as a poster boy spokeperson for an elderly retirement condo manufacturing company relocated from Earth to Nimbral, the Seven Sisters end up turning tricks in Miami for foodstamps... All theories on this matter should now be over... Ok guys lets see you Faerunian believers deal with this tactical scenario from earth.
Cunning Linguist 05-08-04, 08:56 PM	+ remember that magic is an energy or force like magnetism or gravity depending on how much time earthians have to study it. Surely if you threw the entire military tech budgets into the scientific examination of magic, formulas could be constructed to contain and control the magic. Much like gravity, we only know that it exists, not how it works. We do know that it Does work, and we belive that it is a repeating pattern in how it works, but thats about as far as we have come. We don't know why it exists, or how it exists. Much like we would understand magic. Those who also use the art, say that magic is "Alive", and science has yet to define alive, or understand why life is. Grasping the terms of magic would make all our laws of nature fall apart. Places of pure water, but no presure. Places of Pure fire, without the use of air. Ethernal planes, with no end and randomly jerks of gravity in a unpatternly way. Hippies would have a field day against the academia.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 10:47 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Grasping the terms of magic would make all our laws of nature fall apart. Places of pure water, but no presure. Places of Pure fire, without the use of air. Ethernal planes, with no end and randomly jerks of gravity in a unpatternly way. Hippies would have a field day against the academia. That is the funniest thing I've ever heard. The last hippie I ever saw was eaten by an Omicronian in the Futurama episode "A problem with Popplers." Lrr: Is he your friend? Leela: No. *GULP* Waterfall Jr. This is not happening... this is not... Lrr: Ughhhh.... I think there was something in that hippie.... If we approached magic as if it were a seporate entity from normal physics, and as a force that could interact with physics, then I think we could work with it scientifically without making our entire view of reality get screwy. Particularly since it would have to be in order to work without naturally affecting reality. Think of it this way: if magic is indeed a force in the earth universe, it would exist within it as another force that acts reactively. In other words, we'd have to prod it to get it to affect the 'other' laws of physics and quantum physics and it would be like any other force in the universe, just like gravity, entropy, energy, matter, antimatter, and the normal dimensions of space/time. What I mean is: unless mages or other people that use magic to do something, the rules, without magic, apply as if magic never existed. "naturally" occuring things where magic makes the entire area screwy is usually the result of something huge that happened, like the fall of netheril, a mythal, diefic intervention, or something else huge.
mortellan 05-08-04, 11:32 PM	No, earth can't simply learn magic. Magic > technology. Spells can help someone to understand technology, but no machine can make someone understand magic. A quote from an earlier page. This is partially correct, yes you can't learn a spell that was scanned off a spellbook onto a computer or any other Earth method. However an Earthling, on Faerun mind you since it has the weave, not on Earth, can learn magic just as easily as anyone with an INT 10+ spell level. Its all in the deciphering. Magic is cast and written in a language all its own I assume, so it just requires one, just one traitorous mage to tutor an Earthling. Since the FR is chock full of mages, the chances of this happening are very high. Just the fact there is a preponderance of mages in every culture on Toril suggests the ease of learning magic, albeit at the lowest levels and then progressively harder thereon. Hundreds of thousands of mages equals hundreds of thousands of potential stolen spellbooks and many times that much in stolen scrolls. The rule in the PHB is it takes 24 hrs to learn/copy a spell (It was much longer in 2E). No matter the level. It requires a deciphering roll (Spellcraft DC20+spl) or use read magic (the first spell i'd teach an earthling). Even if this is not possible, the PHB says if the owner of the spellbook is on hand to help, success is automatic. Now this is just wizards I am talking about. Sorcerers are an entirely different matter. I believe they are suppose to have dragon blood or something so that definitively rules out Earthlings.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-08-04, 11:38 PM	Originally posted by mortellan Now this is just wizards I am talking about. Sorcerers are an entirely different matter. I believe they are suppose to have dragon blood or something so that definitively rules out Earthlings. and this isn't even touching priests, druids, psions, wilders, Ur-Priests, Witches, or any of the Faerunian "eastern" (Kara-Tur) primary spellcasting classes, such as the Shugenja (or however you spell it.)
Lokiyn 05-08-04, 11:58 PM	I would still like to see the effects of Earth building a Gundam or something similar. We have the tech to build one just not any way to power it or to fit a source of power into it. Thats where magic comes in. Ship it to faerun and have a wizard preform the Golem rituals on it and you now have a magically powered fully teched out robot of doom... with a self destruct button of course
Desies 05-09-04, 12:16 AM	My guess is that the gods would very quickly start granting spells to Earthlings. Think about what the gods are thinking "Oh cool 6 billion new potential followers...why not grant them spells too"
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 12:31 AM	Originally posted by Desies My guess is that the gods would very quickly start granting spells to Earthlings. Think about what the gods are thinking "Oh cool 6 billion new potential followers...why not grant them spells too" yes, but they'd actually have to worship those gods and train as a cleric or priest to gain those spells. Otherwise, they're just glorifed experts with ranks in knowledge religion. Perhaps a lot of people might come to worship those gods, but that takes time and effort. But, in short, yes, new worshipers, especially (the population is close to 7 billion now) with our enourmous numbers that are available. But an invasion would cause an awkward standoff or other relationship between the gods on earth and the gods in Faerun. Plus, the gods would be battling each other over new worshippers and our gods for divine power. I'm sure the dieties in our realm don't like the idea of -all- of faerun's deities as sudden, new competiters.
mortellan 05-09-04, 12:58 AM	Perhaps a lot of people might come to worship those gods, but that takes time and effort. But, in short, yes, new worshipers, especially (the population is close to 7 billion now) with our enourmous numbers that are available. But an invasion would cause an awkward standoff or other relationship between the gods on earth and the gods in Faerun. Plus, the gods would be battling each other over new worshippers and our gods for divine power. I'm sure the dieties in our realm don't like the idea of -all- of faerun's deities as sudden, new competiters I don't think there would be any competition nor any battles. What you suggest is nothing short of the christian 'second coming' which would spell the end. Now once it is seen that magic and gods exist in FR, people raise from the dead, are miraculously healed by the most common clerics, angels summoned by mortals etc. there would be a mass exodus from Earth religions towards Faerunian. The fact that some of FR's deities are already known in Earth mythology would only make transition easier. This alone may be a good reason to believe that FR would win a war.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 01:05 AM	Originally posted by mortellan I don't think there would be any competition nor any battles. What you suggest is nothing short of the christian 'second coming' which would spell the end. Now once it is seen that magic and gods exist in FR, people raise from the dead, are miraculously healed by the most common clerics, angels summoned by mortals etc. there would be a mass exodus from Earth religions towards Faerunian. The fact that some of FR's deities are already known in Earth mythology would only make transition easier. This alone may be a good reason to believe that FR would win a war. perhaps. though, it could be just as easily a reason to start one. I doubt the inhabitants would want billions of new neighbors (I doubt that any infrastructure in Faerun could handle millions of new people coming out of essentially nowhere) and I doubt that the gods from earth would want them to go there. Every worshiper gained on Faerun is a worshiper less that god or any other Earth diety has. Either way, we'd still have to fight our way there. Realistically speaking, however, I think if contact with faerun was possible, I don't think it would lead to invasion, rather I'm sure an actual contact with them would be much more peaceful. After all, we'd have much to trade with each other. It might lead to an exodus of sorts, but I don't think an attack would be probable or supported by any but the more evil or Fundementalist governments on both Faerun and Earth.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 02:53 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels but it will fail and that goes under the assumption that the terrans aren't bothering to attack the mage. The mage'd have to be constantly on the move and that's assuming that the soldiers are too stupid to attack a mage. invisible or not. in fact, it's a DC 20 spot check to find one. Moving around would only make the mage more visible and staying in one place and casting would still generate noise and disturb the space around the caster. That's more than enough to bring an entire base around the caster in no time. The Spot Check is for noticing that something invisible is in the area. It doesn't tells you where it is or even in which direction. And when flying you don't generate noise and disturb any space. The only thing which can give away the location is sound and thats the Still Spell feat for. If used, soldiers have absolutley no clue where the mage is and have no chance to detect him. The only thing can do is to fire blindly arround them hoping to get enough lucky shots to drop the PfA while the mage is dominating/killing/summoning. The casulties on erath side would be extreme.
Necrontyr 05-09-04, 02:55 AM	In other crystal spheres (or whatever in 3E) mages from the FR have to learn the local magic system, which takes time. The same would apply on Earth, only since we've killed off all our gods of magic (Thoth, Odin, Bhaal etc.), and the most profilic dieties such as Allah or Yahweh (or are they the same guy) really don't like magic, I imagine the attempted casting of spells on Earth would have a pretty high likelihood of causing an effect similar to a wild surge. In real life I'm an atheist, but if FR gods can exist in this debate, why not ours? What if the Christian god sent Christ to Faerun to show them the "Way of Righteousness"? How about Hindu deities, whom hundreds of millions of Indians believe create miracles in real life today, do they exist on the planes? How would Buddhism go down in Faerun? And what if we opened a few portals in Mexico or India or rural China and showed them the magical world on the otherside? Lets see Faerun fight a war when flooded with more immigrants then the entire population of Faerun.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 02:59 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. The Spot Check is for noticing that something invisible is in the area. It doesn't tells you where it is or even in which direction. And when flying you don't generate noise and disturb any space. The only thing which can give away the location is sound and thats the Still Spell feat for. If used, soldiers have absolutley no clue where the mage is and have no chance to detect him. The only thing can do is to fire blindly arround them hoping to get enough lucky shots to drop the PfA while the mage is dominating/killing/summoning. The casulties on erath side would be extreme. I doubt it'd be extreme at all. The elementals can be brought down with heavy gunnery. the mage can be brought down with heat seeking equipment, (heat is not a light. it is an energy. using heat vision goggles only transforms the detected heat into light so that people can see them as if they did), and the dominated individuals would be either killed or brought into unconciousness via nonlethal ammunition or stun guns. this also assumes that there are no terran mages on the base or antimagic equipment, people, devices, or magic items for the soldiers to use.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 03:02 AM	Originally posted by Necrontyr In other crystal spheres (or whatever in 3E) mages from the FR have to learn the local magic system, which takes time. The same would apply on Earth, only since we've killed off all our gods of magic (Thoth, Odin, Bhaal etc.), and the most profilic dieties such as Allah or Yahweh (or are they the same guy) really don't like magic, I imagine the attempted casting of spells on Earth would have a pretty high likelihood of causing an effect similar to a wild surge. Any proof for your assumption that FR mages have to relearn magic? Elminster has visited earth several times and his spells worked fine so no wild shape. In real life I'm an atheist, but if FR gods can exist in this debate, why not ours? What if the Christian god sent Christ to Faerun to show them the "Way of Righteousness"? How about Hindu deities, whom hundreds of millions of Indians believe create miracles in real life today, do they exist on the planes? How would Buddhism go down in Faerun? Pleas, leave that outside the discussion because it will make this discussion into a flame war. The only thing I'll say is: Have our priests spells? And what if we opened a few portals in Mexico or India or rural China and showed them the magical world on the otherside? Lets see Faerun fight a war when flooded with more immigrants then the entire population of Faerun. Very bad idea. That only gives them more zombi baterial (and the normal soldiers something to do). Also, how many people are willing to move into a war zone where they are killed left and right?
Derren S. 05-09-04, 03:05 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels I doubt it'd be extreme at all. The elementals can be brought down with heavy gunnery. the mage can be brought down with heat seeking equipment, (heat is not a light. it is an energy. using heat vision goggles only transforms the detected heat into light so that people can see them as if they did), and the dominated individuals would be either killed or brought into unconciousness via nonlethal ammunition or stun guns. this also assumes that there are no terran mages on the base or antimagic equipment, people, devices, or magic items for the soldiers to use. There are no terran mages because earth don't have magic users. Stop to make things up. Heat seeking equipment doesn't work because invisibility also masks heat. Elementals can do much damage before they are killed. They get summoned into melee range in the middle of a formation. Using heavy guns will result in much friendly fire. Therewile the elemental kills 2 soldiers every 6 seconds. And the domainted soldiers woun't be detected before it is to late. It only takes seconds for GI Joe to fire the 120mm tank gun into the middle of his own troops or to pull the trigger of a granade.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 03:05 AM	The only thing I'll say is: Have our priests spells? note that, according to Dieties and Demigods, every god on earth has gotten far more than enough worshippers than necessary to ascend well enough beyond greater diety status to the point to where they are no longer mortal dependant. which means that they wouldn't grant spells anyway.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 03:07 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels note that, according to Dieties and Demigods, every god on earth has gotten far more than enough worshippers than necessary to ascend well enough beyond greater diety status to the point to where they are no longer mortal dependant. which means that they wouldn't grant spells anyway. According to D&DG the amount of followers doesn't have anything to do with the DvR of a deity. That is FR only. No gods is mortal and you can't asscend to an overgod by followers. Even if they are, overgods can't leave their realms so the can't interverne on Faerun.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 03:14 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. There are no terran mages because earth don't have magic users. Stop to make things up. I'm not making anything up in this --fantasy thought game-- It isn't stupid to assume that by the time the war actually started, we would have learned enough about magic from a number of Faerunian mages our own magic to use. Heat seeking equipment doesn't work because invisibility also masks heat. I just read invisibility and no it doesn't. the target of the spell vanishes from sight. it doesn't state that it also masks heat generated by the caster. It stops the caster from being visible. Which means that the caster has stopped reflecting light that previously hit him.Elementals can do much damage before they are killed. They get summoned into melee range in the middle of a formation. Using heavy guns will result in much friendly fire. Therewile the elemental kills 2 soldiers every 6 seconds. a lot of this also seems to assume that the soldiers are... what... the equivelent of a level one character? I don't think so. And the domainted soldiers woun't be detected before it is to late. It only takes seconds for GI Joe to fire the 120mm tank gun into the middle of his own troops or to pull the trigger of a granade. this also assumes that most of these soldiers are failing their saves? A lot of this assumes that the mage creeps in undetected and catches them unaware. Most military instalations are heavily monitered and I'm sure a faerunian invasion would warrent the use of lead as a part of the construction of all military bases, since it blocks divinations.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 03:16 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. According to D&DG the amount of followers doesn't have anything to do with the DvR of a deity. That is FR only. since we're discussing FR, then what I stated is appropriate, isn't it? No gods is mortal and you can't asscend to an overgod by followers. Even if they are, overgods can't leave their realms so the can't interverne on Faerun. the gods can go anywhere they want through one means or another. I never said they had to be there -personally- gods like to work through avatars, proxies, chosen, servants, and other methods.
Necrontyr 05-09-04, 03:19 AM	I'm sure people can be mature about a debate on Earth theology when its applied to a debate about a war with an imaginary world. As for elementals being "summoned into melee range in the middle of a formation", modern soldiers don't fight in formation, they spread out, using cover and flanking and a million other tactics. Faerunian spells and tactics are designed for medieval style warfare, they would be baffled by our modern guerilla tactics, made even more effective with guns. Why would flooding Faerun with immigrants be a bad idea? Don't quote me on this, but I heard that Faerun only had about 200 million inhabitants. A few portals in the world's most populous regions could send 100 million through in a few weeks and as long as you avoid sending them to Thay or the Moonsea they would not be killed and made into zombies. Elminster and the Chosen would not murder millions of civilians not matter the circumstances. And Derren, if Faerunians can build tech, why can't we learn magic, although it would take time for both sides. I'm sure the Thayvians would be willing to trade magic for nukes. And Faerunian defectors would be easy to come by, was it Machivelli (sp?) who said that all men have a price? And think about it, would you rather be a two-bit mage living in squalor on Faerun, or a respected, well-paid magic instructor living with TV, running water and gourmet food on Earth.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 03:25 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels I'm not making anything up in this --fantasy thought game-- It isn't stupid to assume that by the time the war actually started, we would have learned enough about magic from a number of Faerunian mages our own magic to use. You are making things up. The topic is about earth like it is now against faerun. I'm not saying that earth can't do recon to understand the basic principe of magic, but giving them actuall magic and technology/magical hybrids is like saying earth has starships, plasma weapons and photon torpedos because someday earth will invent them. I just read invisibility and no it doesn't. the target of the spell vanishes from sight. it doesn't state that it also masks heat generated by the caster. It stops the caster from being visible. Which means that the caster has stopped reflecting light that previously hit him. Invisibility worked against Infravision (=Thermovision) in 2.Ed and there is nothing in the text which says that this isn't true anymore. And when you disregard that, try hitting a lich this way and how would Thermo vision look like when a fire elemental is standing besides you? The massive ammount of heat will fry the circuits faster than you can think. a lot of this also seems to assume that the soldiers are... what... the equivelent of a level one character? I don't think so. this also assumes that most of these soldiers are failing their saves? Because they would be equivalent to faerunian soldiers with their level which is around 3 for the most soldiers and maybe one or two higher level commander per unit. Nothing a high level mage can't fry in one shot. A lot of this assumes that the mage creeps in undetected and catches them unaware. Most military instalations are heavily monitered and I'm sure a faerunian invasion would warrent the use of lead as a part of the construction of all military bases, since it blocks divinations. Still, this is no protection against a mage in ghostform or invisible. And, while I think you are correct that lead blocks some forms of divinations I can't find an entry for the Spell Divination or Scry which says this. Can you give me a page number?
mortellan 05-09-04, 03:29 AM	Why would flooding Faerun with immigrants be a bad idea? Don't quote me on this, but I heard that Faerun only had about 200 million inhabitants. A few portals in the world's most populous regions could send 100 million through in a few weeks and as long as you avoid sending them to Thay or the Moonsea they would not be killed and made into zombies. Elminster and the Chosen would not murder millions of civilians not matter the circumstances. You don't 'send' millions of people anywhere unless its at gunpoint. Now if people saw that there was better things to be had in FR, they would go there unasked. And Derren, if Faerunians can build tech, why can't we learn magic, although it would take time for both sides. I'm sure the Thayvians would be willing to trade magic for nukes. And Faerunian defectors would be easy to come by, was it Machivelli (sp?) who said that all men have a price? And think about it, would you rather be a two-bit mage living in squalor on Faerun, or a respected, well-paid magic instructor living with TV, running water and gourmet food on Earth. Agreed. Weildskill, Fabricate, etc is fast at replicating tech but it just takes 1000 xp and 24 hrs with a Faerun mage for a 1st level Earth commoner to learn magic.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 03:30 AM	Originally posted by Necrontyr I'm sure people can be mature about a debate on Earth theology when its applied to a debate about a war with an imaginary world. Don't count on it, religion is a very hot topic especially in D&D. As for elementals being "summoned into melee range in the middle of a formation", modern soldiers don't fight in formation, they spread out, using cover and flanking and a million other tactics. Faerunian spells and tactics are designed for medieval style warfare, they would be baffled by our modern guerilla tactics, made even more effective with guns. Do they also do this when marching back to their camp with no known enemy in a radius of 50 miles? That is exactly the time when an invisible mages strikes. Why would flooding Faerun with immigrants be a bad idea? Don't quote me on this, but I heard that Faerun only had about 200 million inhabitants. A few portals in the world's most populous regions could send 100 million through in a few weeks and as long as you avoid sending them to Thay or the Moonsea they would not be killed and made into zombies. Elminster and the Chosen would not murder millions of civilians not matter the circumstances. They would do what many earth countries do. Put up a "no entry" sign and seal the portal of with a forcecage. Also most countries I know aren't that happy to see 100 million citicens to emmigrate. And think about it, would you rather be a two-bit mage living in squalor on Faerun, or a respected, well-paid magic instructor living with TV, running water and gourmet food on Earth. As a mage good enough to be an instructor I can easily give me a castle with running water and gourmet food every day. TV would be a problem but randomly scrying people will do it (see the success of Big Brother). No need to be a traitor for this.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 03:33 AM	Originally posted by mortellan You don't 'send' millions of people anywhere unless its at gunpoint. Now if people saw that there was better things to be had in FR, they would go there unasked. Would people relly be willing to leave running water and electricity behind? They are no high level mages, they are commoner. Going to faerun will be a reduction of lifestile for 99% of those people. it just takes 1000 xp and 24 hrs with a Faerun mage for a 1st level Earth commoner to learn magic. How? Also training to be a mage takes longer than that. See the starting race entry.
mortellan 05-09-04, 03:35 AM	You are making things up. The topic is about earth like it is now against faerun. I'm not saying that earth can't do recon to understand the basic principe of magic, but giving them actuall magic and technology/magical hybrids is like saying earth has starships, plasma weapons and photon torpedos because someday earth will invent them.. Agreed. They would do what many earth countries do. Put up a "no entry" sign and seal the portal of with a forcecage. Also most countries I know aren't that happy to see 100 million citicens to emmigrate. Agreed in principle. And, while I think you are correct that lead blocks some forms of divinations I can't find an entry for the Spell Divination or Scry which says this. I think the lead reference is for X-Ray vision effects. But 3.x ed did chang Scry alot from its origins. Who knows.
mortellan 05-09-04, 03:40 AM	Also training to be a mage takes longer than that. See the starting race entry I'll take your word for it, until i can access my book later. It still doesn't account for multiclassings ease.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 03:47 AM	Multiclassing doesn't make much sence. Personally I assume that the soon to be mage character uses his off time for learnig magic (like a wizard uses his off time for spell research).
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 04:16 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. You are making things up. The topic is about earth like it is now against faerun. and we aren't dumb enough -now or ever- to blindly drudge into completely unknown territory, guns ablazing, without fully realizing what you're up against and without a viable defense or counteroffensive, which includes both magic and spellcasters, which are the only means in which FR has to counterattack the terrans effectively. I'm not saying that earth can't do recon to understand the basic principe of magic, but giving them actuall magic and technology/magical hybrids is like saying earth has starships, plasma weapons and photon torpedos because someday earth will invent them.[b] it doesn't take terribly long to understand magic and it also doesn't take long for a well-budgeted R&D department to develop technology to take advantage of recent finds, depending, of course, on how long it would take to actually understand magic to that degree. Though I doubt it would take longer than a few years to make a machine that did nothing other than negate magic as per "antimagic field" or even generate a mobile dead magic zone. Invisibility worked against Infravision (=Thermovision) in 2.Ed and there is nothing in the text which says that this isn't true anymore.no creature in the realms presently has infravision. it isn't 2e anymore, 3.5e changed the rules and they now have darkvision, which does what normal sight does, but without the light. No heat detection involved. And when you disregard that, try hitting a lich this way and how would Thermo vision look like when a fire elemental is standing besides you? The massive ammount of heat will fry the circuits faster than you can think.[b] so when someone dies, they suddenly don't generate any more heat? Everything generates heat to some degree, even if it simply absorbs the surrounding heat and rereleases it. All a lich would simply do is blend into the surrounding colors better. Because they would be equivalent to faerunian soldiers with their level which is around 3 for the most soldiers and maybe one or two higher level commander per unit. Nothing a high level mage can't fry in one shot.[b] you can't quite compare faerunian soldiers to Earth soldiers. our soldiers are trained far better than they are and are far more effective in battle. Still, this is no protection against a mage in ghostform or invisible. and how common is ghost form? I don't recall seeing many FR NPCs hooked up with that spell. This also assumes, of course, that we have nothing to counterattack with, such as terran mages or something that generates an antimagic field. or +1 ammo to a machine gun. invisibility does not protect against heat vision, as I pointed out earlier. And, while I think you are correct that lead blocks some forms of divinations I can't find an entry for the Spell Divination or Scry which says this. Can you give me a page number? oh crap, I forgot what page that was. ... hang on let me check. I have to search through a bunch of my books... wow... found it on page 37 of the stronghold builders guide, though it was somewhat vague as to what precise divinations it protects against. I knew lead did before, but I don't recall the better source, I just remember it from there because I added a thin layer of lead around a mansion that my arcane trickster built in Greyhawk.
Ruler of All Beer Mugs 05-09-04, 04:17 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. Here a hastely made epic spell. I'm sure someone with more experience than me can do it better, but this spell also works. Supreme Heal Seeds, Energy (fog), Heal Energy (free), Fog (25), Heal (25), Range +4. Migating Factors: 1w6 backlash damage -5, ritual casting 4x7 level slot -52 Final spellcraft DC 1 Cost to create 9000 gp and 360 XP Time to create 1 day. Casting time 10 minutes. This spell fills the area in a 4 miles radius with fog. Everything the fog touches he healed from every disease it is currently afflicted. The range of this spell can easily be increased (+4 for an additional 2 mile radius) and when you drop the DC below 0 it can be developed instantly with no cost at all. I looked up the relevant section of the ELH (p. 88-98) and came up with a different answer. I used the heal seed, for a base DC of 25. Change from one target to a radius: +10. Change area to 20' radius: +2. Now an interpretation of the rules is required. The table states that an increase in area of 100% is a +4 DC. But reading the sample epic spells, it appears that this should be an increase in the radius. In other words, every 20' increase in radius adds a +4 DC. Four miles is 21,120 feet so 21,100 / 4 = +5275. So DC = 25 + 10 + 2 + 5275 = 5312. From page 311 of the ELH, a 25th level NPC cleric has 162 hit points, so he could always survive 26d6 of damage. Backlash, 26d6 damage: -26. Change casting time to 11 minutes: -20. Burn 10,000 XP: -100. So the DC is now 5166. This would require over 300 extra spellcasters to contribute 9th level spell slots to drop the DC to 0. Even if it worked, it would only cover one city, not all of Faerun. Bioweapons could still kill most of the population.
mortellan 05-09-04, 04:30 AM	Multiclassing doesn't make much sence. Agreed. This is a bad trend, isn't it? So the DC is now 5166. This would require over 300 extra spellcasters to contribute 9th level spell slots to drop the DC to 0. Scary thing is, you CAN find that many 9th level casters in FR.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 04:31 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels and we aren't dumb enough -now or ever- to blindly drudge into completely unknown territory, guns ablazing, without fully realizing what you're up against and without a viable defense or counteroffensive, which includes both magic and spellcasters, which are the only means in which FR has to counterattack the terrans effectively. *cough*irak*cough* it doesn't take terribly long to understand magic Only thousand years whith the help of nether scrolls or 20 years while beeing daily tutored by a knowledgable mage when you have the aptitude to become a wizard. and it also doesn't take long for a well-budgeted R&D department to develop technology to take advantage of recent finds, depending, of course, on how long it would take to actually understand magic to that degree. Like I said (and to be using that the argument why Faerun can't use technology) Using magic != understanding magic. And you still belive that making technology which uses magic is possible and as strong as normal magic Though I doubt it would take longer than a few years to make a machine that did nothing other than negate magic as per "antimagic field" or even generate a mobile dead magic zone. That is wish thinking. Tell me any rule or instance where this can be done. no creature in the realms presently has infravision. it isn't 2e anymore, 3.5e changed the rules and they now have darkvision, which does what normal sight does, but without the light. No heat detection involved. Illusions can create or mask heat. Also infravision is highly unpactical in battle because the vision is very blurred and when the first Wall of fire stands it is completly useless. so when someone dies, they suddenly don't generate any more heat? Everything generates heat to some degree, even if it simply absorbs the surrounding heat and rereleases it. All a lich would simply do is blend into the surrounding colors better. A lich would generate as much heat as a rock, even less. He would be invisible on any thermal vision. you can't quite compare faerunian soldiers to Earth soldiers. our soldiers are trained far better than they are and are far more effective in battle. Knights are trained beginning at the age of 10 as squire. How long are earth soldiers trained ? 6 months basic training and maybe one year advanced training? That is a joke compared what training a knight recives. and how common is ghost form? I don't recall seeing many FR NPCs hooked up with that spell. This also assumes, of course, that we have nothing to counterattack with, such as terran mages or something that generates an antimagic field. or +1 ammo to a machine gun. Because no terran mages exist. @ruler Thats why I use the energy seed for transmitting the healing. It is not as precise and fast as the pure healing seed, but the area is enorm.
Ruler of All Beer Mugs 05-09-04, 04:53 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. @ruler Thats why I use the energy seed for transmitting the healing. It is not as precise and fast as the pure healing seed, but the area is enorm. I hate to burst your bubble, but ... on page 96 of the ELH under the "Seed: Energy" heading it states that the area is "A bolt 5 ft. wide to 300 ft. long; or a 5 ft. emanation; or a wall whose area is up to 200-ft. square; or a sphere or hemisphere with a radius of up to 20 ft." I don't see anything that is close to a 4 mile radius ...
Derren S. 05-09-04, 04:57 AM	Page 97 Energy: Another Use. Also see the epic spell Rain of Fire.
mortellan 05-09-04, 04:57 AM	Though I doubt it would take longer than a few years to make a machine that did nothing other than negate magic as per "antimagic field" or even generate a mobile dead magic zone. Ridiculous. The best defense against magic outside magic itself is in improving the saving throws. Train to improve reflexes, fortitude and willpower to avoid damaging spells, be it through level increase or feats like lightning reflexes, iron will and greater fortitude. Objects like tanks would need thicker armor, to increase their hardness or materials stolen from Faerun like Adamantite. There are materials in modern times that can dampen fire, electric and cold damage. Acid and Sonic would still be concerns. But thats it.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 05:00 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. *cough*irak*cough*[b] That isn't a good example. Not because that's an example of the US going into Iraq idiotically and blindly going into the country and firing our guns wildly, but because of our own bad leader who's running the country until this november. (or, god forbid, the november of 4 years from now... but I'm not opening that can of worms). Furthermore, that wasn't a joint effort in the least nor did we not know what we were facing. we did know who and what were were facing. we did make saddam into who he was and we supplied a large amount of Iraq's power. We knew, going into Iraq, who we'd be fighting and what Iraq's capabilities were and we had the ability to defend ourselves against them and attack and counterattack quite well. Only thousand years whith the help of nether scrolls or 20 years while beeing daily tutored by a knowledgable mage when you have the aptitude to become a wizard.[b] no, that'd be the time required to fully develop magic on our own. not learn it from our new neighbors, which would be, by far, far, more likely and fantastically speedier. Like I said (and to be using that the argument why Faerun can't use technology) Using magic != understanding magic. And you still belive that making technology which uses magic is possible and as strong as normal magic[b] I'm saying that a mage comes to us and teaches the terrans how to work magic. It't not improbable, but rather inevitable. learning to use magic is no different than learning any other science. If every mage had to, in order to understand magic, have 1000 or more years of R&D, then there would be no mages on Faerun that weren't immortal, exceptionally long lived, or undead and the chances of us winning Faerun over would skyrocket. That is wish thinking. Tell me any rule or instance where this can be done.[b] one- we can easily learn magic. two- we already know technology three- a high budget R&D department with an experienced mage that's also moderately knowledgeable in engineering, robotics, or whatever can fill in the gaps. or since the presence of magic would be known, the ability to tap it can be developed. particularly if the process to access magic were known. otherwise there wouldn't be any such thing as item creation in D&D. Illusions can create or mask heat. Also infravision is highly unpactical in battle because the vision is very blurred and when the first Wall of fire stands it is completly useless.[b] and what illusions would those be? A lich would generate as much heat as a rock, even less. He would be invisible on any thermal vision.[b] better hidden, yes, but still visible if the person using the goggles knew how to find a human or humanoid skeleton. Knights are trained beginning at the age of 10 as squire. How long are earth soldiers trained ? 6 months basic training and maybe one year advanced training? That is a joke compared what training a knight recives.[b] and yet, our soldiers will almost always beat their knights -because- of their training. Because no terran mages exist. that's easy to say when there aren't any Faerunian portals. if there were, don't you think it would be prudent to have defenses against the largest threat we'd face? If we actually planned on warring with them, it'd be dumb not to make it a priority to aquire our own magical knowledge in any way possible to aquire a defense against their most powerful offenses. @ruler Thats why I use the energy seed for transmitting the healing. It is not as precise and fast as the pure healing seed, but the area is enorm. are you sure that epic magic allows the use of other seeds in that fashion? it sounds real easy just to take, say the destruction seed and the energy seed to get the destruction damage over miles of area. I'm not sure that it works in that fashion, though i don't have my ELH on me and I can't presently check.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 05:12 AM	Originally posted by mortellan Ridiculous. The best defense against magic outside magic itself is in improving the saving throws. Train to improve reflexes, fortitude and willpower to avoid damaging spells, be it through level increase or feats like lightning reflexes, iron will and greater fortitude. Objects like tanks would need thicker armor, to increase their hardness or materials stolen from Faerun like Adamantite. There are materials in modern times that can dampen fire, electric and cold damage. Acid and Sonic would still be concerns. But thats it. perhaps, but there's still incorpereal undead and mages with those annoying spells of theirs. the best defense against magic is the 6th level spell: antimagic field or some device that could generate a dead magic zone, which, on faerun, would be a "bubble" in the weave in which no magic could be generated or penetrate. Perhaps there are more mundane ways of defense against magic, such as better training to make soldiers more resistant to the effects of spells (or by PrCs that give improved mettle of will & fortitude & evasion would actually be the best method) is always possible, but antimagic is, by far, the best method, though the most difficult to mass produce. but certainly not impossible. certainly if there were a method of teaching soldiers to aquire those powers, then it'd be a part of basic training in no time.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 05:15 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels no, that'd be the time required to fully develop magic on our own. not learn it from our new neighbors, which would be, by far, far, more likely and fantastically speedier. Learning magic from a tutor takes around 10 years. And becoming a vetter spellcaster (so taht he can do anything usefull) takes also time. So 20 years isn't very off. one- we can easily learn magic. two- we already know technology three- a high budget R&D department with an experienced mage that's also moderately knowledgeable in engineering, robotics, or whatever can fill in the gaps. 1) Not very effective and still questionable. By the time earth has learned magic, every arms in faerun is equiped with assault rifles. It works bouth ways. 3) Why do you belive that is possible? To make a magical item you need to pay XP (=life force). How many machines have life force? and what illusions would those be? Major Image and better. better hidden, yes, but still visible if the person using the goggles knew how to find a human or humanoid skeleton. Whicis of course standard training in the army and so easily done in the middle of a battle and yet, our soldiers will almost always beat their knights -because- of their training. No, because of their weapons, not because of their training. that's easy to say when there aren't any Faerunian portals. if there were, don't you think it would be prudent to have defenses against the largest threat we'd face? Faeru doesn't need portals, they have planeshift. If we actually planned on warring with them, it'd be dumb not to make it a priority to aquire our own magical knowledge in any way possible to aquire a defense against their most powerful offenses. And Faerun lets yu do that so easily? Everyone on Faerun woul't trust earthlings. And when they try to get that much magic it is obvous that they plan a war. are you sure that epic magic allows the use of other seeds in that fashion? it sounds real easy just to take, say the destruction seed and the energy seed to get the destruction damage over miles of area. I'm not sure that it works in that fashion, though i don't have my ELH on me and I can't presently check. Yes, it is possible as far as I know and I already made such a spell months ago.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 05:19 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels Perhaps there are more mundane ways of defense against magic, such as better training to make soldiers more resistant to the effects of spells (or by PrCs that give improved mettle of will & fortitude & evasion would actually be the best method) is always possible Thats the +2 to a saving throw feats for. And they alone don't protect against a mage. but antimagic is, by far, the best method, though the most difficult to mass produce. but certainly not impossible. certainly if there were a method of teaching soldiers to aquire those powers, then it'd be a part of basic training in no time. It is impossible. A technological device can't create an antimagic field, let alone put holes into a god. And good luck putting wizard schooling into basic soldier training. A soldier now needs 15 years of training.
Ruler of All Beer Mugs 05-09-04, 05:23 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels are you sure that epic magic allows the use of other seeds in that fashion? it sounds real easy just to take, say the destruction seed and the energy seed to get the destruction damage over miles of area. I'm not sure that it works in that fashion, though i don't have my ELH on me and I can't presently check. [/B] If this was legal, then you could just use the negative energy version of the "heal" seed (p.98) and drain all but 1d4 hit points from every person in an entire city. It would also heal undead completely. One epic spell plus a horde of ghouls would be enough to wipe out any city. Szass Tam would take out his neighbors in days.
mortellan 05-09-04, 05:24 AM	And Faerun lets yu do that so easily? Everyone on Faerun woul't trust earthlings. And when they try to get that much magic it is obvous that they plan a war. I agree with the latter part, but everyone on Faerun wouldnt trust earth? come on thats a gross generalization. An evil Faerunian would jump at the chance to do his life long enemies harm more than aide them. There is no limits to what a villainous lich, dragon, drow, human, whatever will go to spite an enemy like the Harpers, El, whoever. This is called opportunity. The opportunistic NE mage sees Earth as his chance to conquer the world so he joins their side, no matter the outcome.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 05:25 AM	Originally posted by Ruler of All Beer Mugs If this was legal, then you could just use the negative energy version of the "heal" seed (p.98) and drain all but 1d4 hit points from every person in an entire city. It would also heal undead completely. One epic spell plus a horde of ghouls would be enough to wipe out any city. Szass Tam would take out his neighbors in days. If there wouldn't be the good epic spellcaster who would prevent him from doing so. Its like the cold war on earth. All siedes could destroy the enemy cities easily but they don't do it because of fear of the retailiation. Earth on the other hand doesn't have this defenses.
mortellan 05-09-04, 05:31 AM	If there wouldn't be the good epic spellcaster who would prevent him from doing so. That's right with the good epic spellcaster's custom epic divination spell he can find out a year in advance what that the evil epic baddy is going to do. ;)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 05:36 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. Learning magic from a tutor takes around 10 years. And becoming a vetter spellcaster (so taht he can do anything usefull) takes also time. So 20 years isn't very off.[b] case in point. earth invades faerun with the help of spellcasters. 1) Not very effective and still questionable. By the time earth has learned magic, every arms in faerun is equiped with assault rifles. It works bouth ways. that's fine. we can defend against assult rifles easily. it's the mages that are the only thing that are a real threat. 3) Why do you belive that is possible? To make a magical item you need to pay XP (=life force). How many machines have life force?[b] Major Image and better.[b] and this masks the heat source of a caster? as opposed to simply creating a figment? Whicis of course standard training in the army and so easily done in the middle of a battle[b] actually, anyone who's ever seen a skeleton can make that distinction. it essentially just allows the skeleton or other undead to hide better, which translates to a bonus to hide checks vs. the spotter's spot check. No, because of their weapons, not because of their training.[b] and what, pray tell, do you think much of the knight's training goes into that's different from the soldiers? Faeru doesn't need portals, they have planeshift.[b] planeshift can't take anyone where they've never been before. And Faerun lets yu do that so easily? Everyone on Faerun woul't trust earthlings. And when they try to get that much magic it is obvous that they plan a war.[b] everyone? I don't think so. no two people think alike so well that they'd unanimously think that because a new world exists beyond XYZ portals that they're immediately untrustworthy. They're humans, not Formains or Borg. You can't count on every single mage on Faerun agreeing on -any- one thing. Yes, it is possible as far as I know and I already made such a spell months ago. I just perused the ELH and it looks as though you might be right. I was probably thinking of durations (which always use the shortest duration for the final product.)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 05:40 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. It is impossible. A technological device can't create an antimagic field, let alone put holes into a god. And good luck putting wizard schooling into basic soldier training. A soldier now needs 15 years of training. train them from childhood. proove to me that building a technological device that generates a magical effect or distorts hte essence of magic is impossible. until that happens, I run under the assumption that if it can be done it -will- be done. Terrans -can- learn magic. terrans -can- learn to combine magic and technology.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 05:55 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels train them from childhood. proove to me that building a technological device that generates a magical effect or distorts hte essence of magic is impossible. until that happens, I run under the assumption that if it can be done it -will- be done. Terrans -can- learn magic. terrans -can- learn to combine magic and technology. Ok, fine. Earht has magic, spacships, plasma weapons, photon torpedos, death stars, cyborgs etc. because some day earth will invent them while Faerun sits on its same old technology for thousands of years earth needs to invent them. And Faerun is freely giving earth invaders all the secrets and artifacts they have. And of course all earthlings have 18 in all stats while on faerun, are unaffected by any magic, can kill with a though and are invulnerable because nowhere it says that this isn't the case. That is not the way it works. Unless the rules say otherwise you can't do it except when common sense allows it. The question is what would happen if earth invades Faerun. With earth is meant the earth we live in. Our earth don't have spellcaster so the earth in our discussion also hasn't. If you say that this is not logical might I point out that strictly by the rules no earth technology would work on faerun because Gond doesn't allow them to exist on Faerun and our blackpowder doesn't work on faerun? There are certain rules set how this war would look like and no rule allows earth to first research magic for 20 years. Earthlings can learn magic as much as Faerun can learn technology. By the time earth has magic faerun has technology and both sides are equal. But continue with your dreams that you only have to read a scroll and know everything about magic, can cast it like a 3000 year old lich who has grown up in a magical society and mass produce magical machines without researching or expending any XP while faeruns can't figure out how a gun works despite having muskets and that our soldiers are highly trained in 6 months while a knight trained from childhood knows less about war than a 6 year old warcraft 3 player.
mortellan 05-09-04, 06:01 AM	I went back and read the original post that started this thread 19 pages ago... Recently I found out that FR is connected to our world via forgotten portals. So let's say in our world those portals are found and a decision is made to try to take over a part of the Realms for its power and treasures. Let's say big enough portals are found in the oceans that whole carriers can get through. Let's say important FR NPCs are warned by the gods of this invasion that is going to happen VERY SOON(maybe in 24 hours or so). Now either side knows only little about the other (our side knows a little more since we are attacking). For the sake of the argument the portals cannot be closed just like that. Who will win? P.S. please don't use this thread for any real life political opinions! For the sake of the argument NATO, Russia and China are united. (I've had this argument with my friends on our last session and it lasted for the half of it; I am pro FR) after pages of arguement i found some interesting caveats. first is Earth starts the war on a decision to get its power and treasures. Translated, magic and unearthly items. The pre-war knowledge is there as it says later on. This is because to even know about Faerun's power and treasures it would require contact and research. This is no fly by the seat of your pants mission because the planet has mobilized to get it. However it says plainly both sides know little about each other, so there is no pre-war time for terran mages to be trained or anti-magic devices to be constructed. This would have to occur after the fact. Now on the other end, the thread assumes the portals can't be closed. Taken a further step they can't be blocked for in doing so ends all argument. BUT it says quite clearly that IMPORTANT faerunian NPCs know 24 hrs in advance of the invasion. now this kinda botches the 1 week divination head start, but it is still plenty of time for the 'important' NPCs to mobilize an advance spearhead to an Earth invasion. Looks grim.
Ruler of All Beer Mugs 05-09-04, 07:11 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. If there wouldn't be the good epic spellcaster who would prevent him from doing so. Its like the cold war on earth. All siedes could destroy the enemy cities easily but they don't do it because of fear of the retailiation. Earth on the other hand doesn't have this defenses. All right, let us take this line of argument to its ultimate conclusion. Epic Level Spell: Reductio Ad Absurdum Transmutation, Evocation(Cold) Spellcraft DC: 96 Components: V, S Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: 16384 mile radius Target: One Earth, Eberron, Greyhawk or Toril-sized planet. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude half Spell Resistance: Yes To Develop: 864,000 gp; 18 days; 34,560 XP. Seeds: energy(weather) (DC25), destroy (DC 29). Factor: Change from target to area (+10 DC), increase range to 16384 miles (+52 DC), increase casting time to 10 minutes (-20 DC). The purpose of this spell is to try to destroy every thing on an entire planet. Ten minutes after the spell is cast, a strange chilling fog suddenly envelops the unlucky planet. You deal 20d6 damage to every thing on the planet. If the target is reduced to -10 hit points or less (or a construct, object, or undead is reduced to 0 hit points), it is utterly destroyed as if disintegrated. Even magical matter, energy fields, and force effects are destroyed in a similar fashion. Epic spells using the ward seed are destroyed if an opposed caster level check against the other spellcaster succeeds.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 07:15 AM	The casting time for weather seeds is already 10 minutes so you can't increae it. Also your area is of. For +4 DC the area increases by 100%. that is 100% of the base area (2 miles) not the modified area. An finally you need still a line of effect between you and the point of origin of the spell, so you can't cast it into the middle of one planet. And where is yor area target? You changed to target to an area so you can't target a planet with it.
Ruler of All Beer Mugs 05-09-04, 08:17 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. The casting time for weather seeds is already 10 minutes so you can't increase it. Look at "Rain of Fire". The casting time is 1 minute. Originally posted by Derren S. Also your area is off. For +4 DC the area increases by 100%. That is 100% of the base area (2 miles) not the modified area. And finally you need still a line of effect between you and the point of origin of the spell, so you can't cast it into the middle of one planet. And where is your area target? You changed to target to an area so you can't target a planet with it. The ELH is not self-consistent. Table 2-2 has a +4 DC for a 100% increase in area, but the spells themselves use the radius and scale linearly. I'll use the radius. Look here for the circumference of the Earth: http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzcircumference.htm I'll stand with my fellow mages at one of the poles to shorten the circumference. So, use half the circumference or 12,280 miles as the range. This means the spell covers the globe all the way to the other pole. New version: Reductio Ad Absurdum Transmutation, Evocation(Cold) Spellcraft DC: 94 Components: V, S Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: 12,280 mile radius Target: One Earth, Eberron, Greyhawk or Toril-sized planet. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude half Spell Resistance: Yes Cost: 846,000 gp, Time: 18 days, drains 33,840 XP. Seeds: energy(weather) (DC25), destroy (DC 29). Factor: Change from target to area (+10 DC), increase range to 12,280 miles (+24,456 DC), increase casting time to 10 minutes (-20 DC), Burn 10000 XP in casting (-100 DC), Backlash 30d6 damage (-30 DC), 1428 additional participants contributing 9th-level spell slots (-24,276 DC). The purpose of this spell is to try to destroy every thing on an entire planet. Ten minutes after the spell is cast, a strange chilling fog suddenly envelops the unlucky planet. You deal 20d6 damage to every thing on the planet. If the target is reduced to -10 hit points or less (or a construct, object, or undead is reduced to 0 hit points), it is utterly destroyed as if disintegrated. Even magical matter, energy fields, and force effects are destroyed in a similar fashion. Epic spells using the ward seed are destroyed if an opposed caster level check against the other spellcaster succeeds.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 08:20 AM	Still you target is wrong. You change from target to area effect, but your spell still has a target and not a area effect. And you still need a LoE from you to the point where the spell takes effect. You can't cast something inside earth.
Ruler of All Beer Mugs 05-09-04, 08:29 AM	Reductio Ad Absurdum Transmutation, Evocation(Cold) Spellcraft DC: 94 Components: V, S Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: 12,280 mile radius Area: One Earth, Eberron, Greyhawk or Toril-sized planet. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude half Spell Resistance: Yes Cost: 846,000 gp, Time: 18 days, drains 33,840 XP. Seeds: energy(weather) (DC25), destroy (DC 29). Factor: Change from target to area (+10 DC), increase range to 12,280 miles (+24,456 DC), increase casting time to 10 minutes (-20 DC), Burn 10000 XP in casting (-100 DC), Backlash 30d6 damage (-30 DC), 1428 additional participants contributing 9th-level spell slots (-24,276 DC). The purpose of this spell is to try to destroy every thing on an entire planet. Ten minutes after the spell is cast, a strange chilling fog suddenly envelops the unlucky planet. You deal 20d6 damage to every thing on the planet. If any creature is reduced to -10 hit points or less (or a construct, object, or undead is reduced to 0 hit points), it is utterly destroyed as if disintegrated. Even magical matter, energy fields, and force effects are destroyed in a similar fashion. Epic spells using the ward seed are destroyed if an opposed caster level check against the other spellcaster succeeds.
Derren S. 05-09-04, 08:32 AM	You still have to increase the area to 12 thousand miles so that the fog engulfs the whole planet.
Ruler of All Beer Mugs 05-09-04, 08:43 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. You still have to increase the area to 12 thousand miles so that the fog engulfs the whole planet. Look at the spell Verdigris Tsunami. The radius increases from 20 to 1000 ft. The area goes from 1256 square feet to 3.1 million square feet. But the DC is +196, so the rule is +4 DC/unit of radius, NOT per 100% area increase. Table 2.2 is contradicted by the DCs used for the sample spells.
Damien_Hiro 05-09-04, 08:56 AM	The diameter of the Earth is 7926 miles but if you are talking about land surface then it is 57.5 million square miles. So I am am not sure how many square feet that is but you might need a bigger spell. That might also make for an Greater Deity DC.
Gemstone 05-09-04, 02:37 PM	You know... earth is a magic-dead plane... -_- else, we would have had sorcerers...
Derren S. 05-09-04, 02:40 PM	Originally posted by Gemstone You know... earth is a magic-dead plane... -_- else, we would have had sorcerers... No. if you follow the flavor text, no dragon or outsider blood -> no sorcerer. And Elminster visited earth multiple times and reported that magic works just fine.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 04:35 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Ok, fine. Earht has magic, spacships, plasma weapons, photon torpedos, death stars, cyborgs etc. because some day earth will invent them while Faerun sits on its same old technology for thousands of years earth needs to invent them. And Faerun is freely giving earth invaders all the secrets and artifacts they have. And of course all earthlings have 18 in all stats while on faerun, are unaffected by any magic, can kill with a though and are invulnerable because nowhere it says that this isn't the case. That is not the way it works. Unless the rules say otherwise you can't do it except when common sense allows it. ... ugh. I NEVER said that we'd be learning magic from scrap. I never said that we'd bother to undergo the thousands of years to develop magic on earth before the war. I"m talking about a pre-war examination of our enemy, either through remote means or, far more likely, direct means. Learning how to use magic isn't a clear sign for "war" in the least. Saying that "it can't happen. it's impossible" is just saying "earth can't have magic. ever. because magic is incomprehensible to anyone human except faerunian humans." which is ludicrous. The question is what would happen if earth invades Faerun. With earth is meant the earth we live in. Our earth don't have spellcaster so the earth in our discussion also hasn't. If you say that this is not logical might I point out that strictly by the rules no earth technology would work on faerun because Gond doesn't allow them to exist on Faerun and our blackpowder doesn't work on faerun? the earth we live on wouldn't be dumb enough to fight an enemy that we had no means to defend ourselves from. Thus, we'd have to go there, peacefully, diplomatically, or whatever, and learn something about them before committing to a war in which they'd use those resources against us. There are certain rules set how this war would look like and no rule allows earth to first research magic for 20 years. there is -nothing- in the general assumptions about this war that says that this war happens as soon as the portals open. Or even a number of years following. That's not to say that by the time the earth-faerun war started, we'd both probably have a number of defenses against each other -- particularly our defenses against the high level spellcasters. who, under your assumptsions, all suddenly agree to share all spells, work together, and always use the absolute best tactics based on knowledge that they always have the ability to aquire -- especially reguarding the terran military practices and far more importantly, our military weaknesses. military practices on earth are far more secretive than magical practices on faerun. Earthlings can learn magic as much as Faerun can learn technology. By the time earth has magic faerun has technology and both sides are equal. what do you mean "learn" technology. I assume that we'd be selling stuff to them. They are, after all, an untapped market for all of our greedy companies. Expect a number of starbucks, mcdonalds, convienience stores, appliance stores, and yes, the NRA would likely set up a few gun stores, ammunition depots, etc, which would all enter faerun as soon as the borders are open. I'm sure there'd be a reletively free exchange long before the war would be even concieved. But continue with your dreams that you only have to read a scroll and know everything about magic, can cast it like a 3000 year old lich who has grown up in a magical society and mass produce magical machines without researching or expending any XP while faeruns can't figure out how a gun works despite having muskets and that our soldiers are highly trained in 6 months while a knight trained from childhood knows less about war than a 6 year old warcraft 3 player. I never said it would be like that at all. You're taking my words and twisting them. I stated that any magical knowledge on earth would result in them teaching us in one fashion or another. Furthermore, it doesn't take a 3000 year old lich to cast antimagic field -or- manipulate the essence of magic itself, be it the weave or whatever sort that earth works under. or both. Furthermore, I never stated that we'd be instantly developing any new technologies. I just said that they'd likely be developed. _and most of all_ I never stated that no research would be involved. I NEVER said that we or they'd be learning anything from scratch.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 04:40 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. No. if you follow the flavor text, no dragon or outsider blood -> no sorcerer. And Elminster visited earth multiple times and reported that magic works just fine. actually, if we go by the flavor text, sorcerers are rumored to have dragon/outsider blood. please keep note that sorcerers, unlike psions and like wizards, learn their spells, not 'discover' or 'inherit' them. a sorcerer's spells are not spell like abilities. they don't gain them by just being related to something. notice that any race with a charisma score of 10 or higher can become a sorcerer. I'm not trying to be rude when I specify what I stated above, it just seems that people get the wrong idea of what a sorcerer is and I've been on the classes board discussing the sorcerer for quite some time now. perhaps their sorcerer powers are influenced by bloodline, dragon-sorcerers being perhaps better or more naturally suited for becoming a sorcerer, but that does not mean that being a sorcerer depends on it.
Kuje31 05-09-04, 04:55 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels what do you mean "learn" technology. I assume that we'd be selling stuff to them. They are, after all, an untapped market for all of our greedy companies. Expect a number of starbucks, mcdonalds, convienience stores, appliance stores, and yes, the NRA would likely set up a few gun stores, ammunition depots, etc, which would all enter faerun as soon as the borders are open. I'm sure there'd be a reletively free exchange long before the war would be even concieved.[/B] How's that now? There are no power plants, no electric lines, and/or no gas lines to these places. Let's be realistic here Earth would not have the time to build power plants, run electric lines, and build these places while they are being attacked. Hell's we've (the USA) have been in Iraq for a year or so, and some of these places already existed and we still can't get them working!
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 05:02 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 How's that now? There are no power plants, no electric lines, and/or no gas lines to these places. Let's be realistic here Earth would not have the time to build power plants, run electric lines, and build these places while they are being attacked. Hell's we've (the USA) have been in Iraq for a year or so, and some of these places already existed and we still can't get them working! a. with magical help, these places can get all of that. if someone's willing to set up a business I'm sure the locals would be willing to help. Spells can geneate electricity, water, heat, and perhaps even some of the building materials. b. much of that can be exported from earth to faerun. it would cost more, but if it's still possible, I have no doubt that these places would be established. c. a combination of a & b d. portable generaters takes care of power. gas would probably have to be imported, though I'm sure the oil companies would be attempting to aquire oil from the unspoiled lands in Faerun. (not to say that they'd succeed, but they'd certainly try.)
Kuje31 05-09-04, 05:19 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels a. with magical help, these places can get all of that. if someone's willing to set up a business I'm sure the locals would be willing to help. Spells can geneate electricity, water, heat, and perhaps even some of the building materials. b. much of that can be exported from earth to faerun. it would cost more, but if it's still possible, I have no doubt that these places would be established. c. a combination of a & b d. portable generaters takes care of power. gas would probably have to be imported, though I'm sure the oil companies would be attempting to aquire oil from the unspoiled lands in Faerun. (not to say that they'd succeed, but they'd certainly try.) Except most spells are not permanent (unless they are made permanent). Export electricity? How exactly? When it has to be spread all over Faerun through electric lines. Hells even the two coasts of the USA already have electric problems and you want Earth to spread and export more power to Faerun? :) Portable generators wouldn't last that long because they need oil aka gas. Then you have to build refineries on Faerun if you drill thier oil. Again let's be realistic, it would take years to decades before Faerun even saw the first fast food place or store run with electricity. Electric wires of Earth could not withstand the voltage of magical electricty either. Have you ever gone to europe and forgot your adapter? Fried american standard electronics is not a pretty sight. :) If that is the case, then why doesn't Faerun have chain food stores? It is unrealistic to keep the magic to run one active.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 05:27 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Except most spells are not permanent (unless they are made permanent). Export electricity? How exactly? When it has to be spread all over Faerun through electric lines. Hells even the two coasts of the USA already have electric problems and you want Earth to spread and export more power to Faerun? :) Portable generators wouldn't last that long because they need oil aka gas. Then you have to build refineries on Faerun if you drill thier oil. Again let's be realistic, it would take years to decades before Faerun even saw the first fast food place or store run with electricity. Electric wires of Earth could not withstand the voltage of magical electricty either. Have you ever gone to europe and forgot your adapter? Fried american standard electronics is not a pretty sight. :) If that is the case, then why doesn't Faerun have chain food stores? It is unrealistic to keep the magic to run one active. no, being realistic, the first terran constructs on faerun would probably be self powered by store generters that use gas exported from earth to faerun. or better yet, they'd use the "cleaner" sources of power, such as solar power or some other method that isn't commonly implimented in the USA. It might take years perhaps (I never said it would be instantaneous. why is everything I say being interpreted as though I'm saying "BAM it happens instantaneously in the most illogical and inconvienient methods possible." when I'm not.) but it would happen. (it might even only take months. though years is far more likely. they'd have to take the time to survey where they would actually build their new store.)
Kuje31 05-09-04, 05:40 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels no, being realistic, the first terran constructs on faerun would probably be self powered by store generters that use gas exported from earth to faerun. or better yet, they'd use the "cleaner" sources of power, such as solar power or some other method that isn't commonly implimented in the USA. It might take years perhaps (I never said it would be instantaneous. why is everything I say being interpreted as though I'm saying "BAM it happens instantaneously in the most illogical and inconvienient methods possible." when I'm not.) but it would happen. (it might even only take months. though years is far more likely. they'd have to take the time to survey where they would actually build their new store.) Generators can not keep a building like Mcdonalds or chain stores running for long. If it takes years to build them, then there is no point to even build them because by then the forces of Earth would be destroyed. Again I ask, why hasn't it happened on Faerun already then? It doesn't take much intelligence for some one to realize. Hey, if I can make cheap food and sell enough of it, I can open taverns just like this one in other cities and towns.
Cunning Linguist 05-09-04, 05:59 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Generators can not keep a building like Mcdonalds or chain stores running for long. If it takes years to build them, then there is no point to even build them because by then the forces of Earth would be destroyed. Again I ask, why hasn't it happened on Faerun already then? It doesn't take much intelligence for some one to realize. Hey, if I can make cheap food and sell enough of it, I can open taverns just like this one in other cities and towns. The problem is profit, and how you make cheep food. McDonalds does it by buying meat and other products from places that sell them for nickels and dims, and hiring people at a salary that you won’t survive on. This would never work in Faerun. The cities are to small, the population is not that desperate, and there is no farmer that is going to sell his cattle for less then he what he needs to support his family, trade takes to long to support a massive transport of food over long distances, mass production is not yet in place, so there is no mass supply of anything coming inn from anywhere.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 06:07 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Generators can not keep a building like Mcdonalds or chain stores running for long. If it takes years to build them, then there is no point to even build them because by then the forces of Earth would be destroyed. Again I ask, why hasn't it happened on Faerun already then? It doesn't take much intelligence for some one to realize. Hey, if I can make cheap food and sell enough of it, I can open taverns just like this one in other cities and towns. all they have to do is keep buying more gas from earth to keep them running. it's not like they can't get high quality generaters that're efficient enough to run for long periods of time. scientific outposts in uninhabited areas around earth do essentially the same thing. staying for days at a time. ... McDonalds buildings haven't been already built on faerun 'yet' because faerun doesn't exist. and there would be a point to build these places there because there there is no local competition for them to battle against. and no, the earth forces would be far from 'already destroyed.' quite the opposite, in fact.
Kuje31 05-09-04, 06:19 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels all they have to do is keep buying more gas from earth to keep them running. it's not like they can't get high quality generaters that're efficient enough to run for long periods of time. scientific outposts in uninhabited areas around earth do essentially the same thing. staying for days at a time. ... McDonalds buildings haven't been already built on faerun 'yet' because faerun doesn't exist. and there would be a point to build these places there because there there is no local competition for them to battle against. and no, the earth forces would be far from 'already destroyed.' quite the opposite, in fact. There's no local competition? How about taverns, or church run festhalls, or taverns. You do realize we are already slowly running out of oil here on Earth. Look at our gas prices right now, it's not cheap to import a fuel source that will not last for maybe longer then another hundred years here on Earth. Factoring in refineries, gas, oil, etc, that will be needed to run these types of places on Faerun, then oil from Earth would probably be gone in half that time. You keep changing your replies. First it's we'll build, build, build. Then it's we'll use magic, then it's we'll import it. It is still to hard to build power plants, run electric lines, or import gas and oil from Earth. Sorry but if Earth invaded Faerun and Faerun had years to learn how to fight our forces, then our forces would be decimated long before some one decided to build a fast food chain. So please stop with the we will just bring over TV's, fast food chains, etc. It's a silly and unrealistic arguement.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 07:18 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 You keep changing your replies. First it's we'll build, build, build. Then it's we'll use magic, then it's we'll import it. It is still to hard to build power plants, run electric lines, or import gas and oil from Earth. I never 'changed' anything. you're putting words in my mouth. Sorry but if Earth invaded Faerun and Faerun had years to learn how to fight our forces, then our forces would be decimated long before some one decided to build a fast food chain. I don't think so. You're putting mages up on a higher pedistal than they deserve to be. So please stop with the we will just bring over TV's, fast food chains, etc. It's a silly and unrealistic arguement. you honestly don't think we'd try to sell them things? a large, populous place such as faerun would scream to everyone who has -anything- to sell: OPEN MARKET the vast, untouched plains and lands would also scream to our development companies. It would be entirely unrealistic to assume that faerun would win simply because of what hte mages are -capable- of doing. and it would be unrealistic to assume that the war would start as soon as the portals are open. it would be unrealistic to assume that we'd wade into that -massive- battle with no stratagy of our own, no defenses against their primary offenses, and no knowledge of hte inhabitats, their capabilities, or the terrain. it would also be completely unrealistic that the open portals wouldn't be transversed and some degree of commerce established.
Kuje31 05-09-04, 07:28 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels I never 'changed' anything. you're putting words in my mouth. I don't think so. You're putting mages up on a higher pedistal than they deserve to be. you honestly don't think we'd try to sell them things? a large, populous place such as faerun would scream to everyone who has -anything- to sell: OPEN MARKET the vast, untouched plains and lands would also scream to our development companies. It would be entirely unrealistic to assume that faerun would win simply because of what hte mages are -capable- of doing. and it would be unrealistic to assume that the war would start as soon as the portals are open. it would be unrealistic to assume that we'd wade into that -massive- battle with no stratagy of our own, no defenses against their primary offenses, and no knowledge of hte inhabitats, their capabilities, or the terrain. it would also be completely unrealistic that the open portals wouldn't be transversed and some degree of commerce established. I never said a word about mages, now whose putting words in whose mouth? Sorry but all magic users, be they divine or arcane would wipe out forces from Earth. Undead, Dragons, casters, angels, devils, demons, etc, would be summoned to destroy soliders from Earth. Toril already has many open markets and they do not need things from Earth. Again there is no way for us to sell them fast food, tv's, etc. Only in the last 100 years have any of this stuff even became part of our culture. How are you going to import food, electricity, electric wires, power plants, etc. Again generators will not last forever since they take gas or oil which we here on Earth are even running out of. And it's unrealistic that Faerun would not have plans and strategy as well. You keep saying, we'll sell them TV's and fast food and that is how we'll win, when it's unrealistic to believe that when there really is NO WAY that such places could be built before Faerun decides to start launching fireballs at gas tanks, etc, especially in places where commerce thrives, like Amn, Waterdeep, etc. Those cities would join together to kill off Earthlings and there chain stores. Sell things yes, open chain stores, no sorry, not happening since it would take decades to make a power plant, run electric lines, run gas lines, etc. Try telling the local druids, or fey, or elementals, etc, that Earthlings need to rip your plains, forests, pollute your rivers, etc, so we can build power plants or run electric or gas lines, and see how they will react.
Cunning Linguist 05-09-04, 07:31 PM	a large, populous place such as faerun would scream to everyone who has -anything- to sell: OPEN MARKET What world do you come from? There is no open marked in Faerun, Guilds have all the power, you can't just start up something new without the blessing of the guilds first. (Just like europe had back in the 1300, thats why the Church ruled, and not the marked) the vast, untouched plains and lands would also scream to our development companies. Those plain are owned by kings, lords and ladys, they are not up for grabs. Those who are up for grabs are inhabited by far worse things then native people who don't understand the consept off ownership. Faerun is not a New America, they have laws, and customs and will not just let Earth settlers come in and start up anywhere they want.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 07:41 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 I never said a word about mages, now whose putting words in whose mouth? the spellcasters are the only thing stopping earth from wiping faerun out completely and utterly. Sorry but all magic users, be they divine or arcane would wipe out forces from Earth. Undead, Dragons, casters, angels, devils, demons, etc, would be summoned to destroy soliders from Earth. I haven't seen a convincing arguement stating that this is a likely probibility. saying "this is how it will happen" isn't very convincing. Toril already has many open markets and they do not need things from Earth. Again there is no way for us to sell them fast food, tv's, etc. Only in the last 100 years have any of this stuff even became part of our culture. How are you going to import food, electricity, electric wires, power plants, etc. Again generators will not last forever since they take gas or oil which we here on Earth are even running out of. we have enough to last decades and that's not to say that faerun wouldn't have them as well. In fact, I don't think it would be unlikely that we wouldn't try to aquire it. in fact, that'd probably be the reason the war would begin in the first place. it's even the basic premise of the FR vs. Earth discussion. And it's unrealistic that Faerun would not have plans and strategy as well. You keep saying, we'll sell them TV's and fast food and that is how we'll win, I NEVER said that selling them things is how we'd win. when it's unrealistic to believe that when there really is NO WAY that such places could be built before Faerun decides to start launching fireballs at gas tanks, etc, especially in places where commerce thrives, like Amn, Waterdeep, etc. Those cities would join together to kill off Earthlings and there chain stores. I never said that they didn't. All I keep hearing from you and Derren is: well, we have mages that can do yadda yadda yadda, so Faerun wins and that's hardly a convincing arguement. Derren has at least provided explainations for why certain tactics would fail and -all- of Faerun's tactics depend on their mages. specifically their mid level - epic mages which are far from being in a prodigeous supply. even on faerun. Sell things yes, open chain stores, no sorry, not happening since it would take decades to make a power plant, run electric lines, run gas lines, etc. Try telling the local druids, or fey, or elementals, etc, that Earthlings need to rip your plains, forests, pollute your rivers, etc, so we can build power plants or run electric or gas lines, and see how they will react. decades? years, maybe, but not decades. I never said we'd do all the above and that's that I said that we'd -TRY- to do XYZ. BIG difference. Stop telling me that I stated things that I never said.
Kuje31 05-09-04, 08:05 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels the spellcasters are the only thing stopping earth from wiping faerun out completely and utterly. I haven't seen a convincing arguement stating that this is a likely probibility. saying "this is how it will happen" isn't very convincing. we have enough to last decades and that's not to say that faerun wouldn't have them as well. In fact, I don't think it would be unlikely that we wouldn't try to aquire it. in fact, that'd probably be the reason the war would begin in the first place. it's even the basic premise of the FR vs. Earth discussion. I never said that they didn't. All I keep hearing from you and Derren is: well, we have mages that can do yadda yadda yadda, so Faerun wins and that's hardly a convincing arguement. Derren has at least provided explainations for why certain tactics would fail and -all- of Faerun's tactics depend on their mages. specifically their mid level - epic mages which are far from being in a prodigeous supply. even on faerun. decades? years, maybe, but not decades. I never said we'd do all the above and that's that I said that we'd -TRY- to do XYZ. BIG difference. Stop telling me that I stated things that I never said. No again, stop putting words in my mouth. I never once said any thing about mages until YOU brought it up. Casters, be they divine or arcane will decimate troops, as would warriors, paladins, rogues, and any of the other core classes found in the PHB. Yes WE, here on Earth, have enough oil to maybe last decades when used on EARTH, but you wanted to import it off Earth and to Faerun and that would cut our supply in half as well as the amount we import to Faerun. Again you try to build refineries, power plants, etc, in a world where there are people who can do some thing about it with magic or even nonmagic and see how well it works. One large lightening storm over a power plant would bring it to it's knees as well as the thousand lines of electric lines. One large Earthquake under the power plant would destroy it or render it harmless until repaired, etc. Yes I'd still go with decades to even get these places running. Invisible assassins killing the people who run them or build them, spells causing them to be distrupted, etc. Hells again the US has been in Iraq for about a year and it took us at least a year or longer to get thier power back on and they already had prebuilt power plants and electric lines! Now factor in races and casters who can cause those things to be distrupted and you are looking at decades worth of building/repairing. The cost here on Earth in money and resources would be astronomical! "Oh yes, you mean this open plain belongs to you? Well we want to build on it. What do you mean we can't? Well are going to anyway and there is nothing you can do about it." Alusair, Alustrial, the Lords, Shade, Thay, or any other nation laughs in thier faces and calls upon thier casters, fighters, etc, and destroys the invaders. Druids or other nature casters and nature races cause the invaders food to decay in less then two minutes, the invaders natural materials for their armor and clothing do the same, the invaders fuel sources start to explode with fire elementals or even magic. While the fighters, paladins, rogues, and other fighter types decimate the invaders unarmored troops. Hells a few well places fire elementals or spells could even explode the bullets before a battle even begins. Sorry I just don't buy into the "We'll sell them TV's, low priced food, etc," theory.
Lokiyn 05-09-04, 08:30 PM	i'm afraid i'm going to have to go with my older statement. Earth will own during the first stage of the war due to suprise and lack of unity. Once Faerunians see earth as enough of a threat that everyone who has hated each other for the past 1,000 years or so decide to call a truce and deal with them stage two will begin In stage two Faerunian counter attacks will probably drive earth back quite a ways in vicious bloody battles. Of course remember Nukes are quite mean since a large portion of their damage is conccusive in nature as well as fire based. + is there anything that is immune to large doses of radiation? Stage three will be a standoff as both sides fight along a front's size that will probably be determined by earths supply lines and the faerunians co-operation. Stage four will consist of adaptation of the new techiques on both sides of each others weaponry but lets face it the craft dc for an assult rifle is really high. it's something like a dc 20 to make a masterwork sword. Essentialy a bar of sharpened metal, a gun must be well over a 50 Dc check. Also i suspect that earth will eventually develop something like the weapon used in The Magic goes away by larry niven. The main concept of the device wasn't a complex manipulation of magic but was mind bogglingly simple. Take a pair of copper discs and set two open ended spells on them one allows the discs to spin and speed up with no upper limit while the other holds the discs together. The end result of that essentially a magical black hole that sucked all the magic from the area. In faerun all of magic is connected by the weave and an infinite drain on the weave is going to cause many many problems... shar would be happy though... Magic is power and magic is energy Faerunians mages are masters of energy manupilation in the form of magic while earthians are the masters of matter manipulation in the for of technology And the propper application of matter can stop any energy. How are your lighting bolts going to fare against grounded targets. Fireball Cant heat the tank fast enough and a heat sink would take care of that. once the earth scientist discover how to usilize magic not as spells but simply as an energy source all hell is going to fail to break loose
Kuje31 05-09-04, 09:01 PM	Originally posted by Lokiyn i'm afraid i'm going to have to go with my older statement. Earth will own during the first stage of the war due to suprise and lack of unity. Once Faerunians see earth as enough of a threat that everyone who has hated each other for the past 1,000 years or so decide to call a truce and deal with them stage two will begin In stage two Faerunian counter attacks will probably drive earth back quite a ways in vicious bloody battles. Of course remember Nukes are quite mean since a large portion of their damage is conccusive in nature as well as fire based. + is there anything that is immune to large doses of radiation? Okay well 1) the poster said both sides had 24 hr's notice if you go back to the first post. So there is no suprise on Faerun's side and in 24 hr's you can find a heck of a lot of allies with teleport, portals, summoning, etc. 2) there are NO NUKES BEING USED. 3) it's pretty easy to hit ground targets with lightening bolts since the druids spell that call's lightening can be aimed. :)
Ramius_Mordale 05-09-04, 09:34 PM	Kuje31 is correct on many points. In a war senerio to believe you can build while your fighting everywhere just doesn't happen, at least no sane commander would send civilians into a war zone. And before someone starts pointing in my face about the War in Iraq, if you haven't been there don't make assumptions based off of the media which doesn't give the whole story, just what sells. If you think any media in the world is unbias then you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Truth doesn't sell the STORY of some reported does. Key words someone says 99% of the time, "And now we go to Tom, for the story on Blah blah blah." Key word story not news. Now since I bashed the media, moving on. :) Lokiyn one disagreement, and yes I have been supporting Earth side primarily, to develope such a magic altering device, it brings to the question how long it would take. If Earth decides to abandon its 'safely introducing technology' attitude to the public then this may be possible. Technology on Earth is now highly controlled by government grants, which means taxes here must be raised to support such research. These taxes would be added on to an already increase in taxes to support the invading force. But I will agree with you on the first strike suprise attack. If the Earth colition could strike hard and fast before Faerun countries could resolve differences and sign a truce they would greatly decemate the Sword Coast, The North, Lands of Intrigue, and Western Heartlands in a matter of a months or maybe just a month. This is assuming that the invading forces have the portals only on the Sword Coast region and seas. Those regions are so disunified at the moment that they would fall easily since there isn't a strong powerful nation in this region. With the current events as they are in Faerun, if Earth attack in its current condition, most attention is focused solely on the Shades. The Underdark is in a chaotic power struggle, to the degree on a deific level. The Zhentrium is unified but rebuilding its power base and has taken a great hit by having their Anuarch trade route closed to them because of the Shades. Unther is barely even around after a still on going war with Mulhorund. I heard the North just had a huge army of orcs invade. And Cormyr has suffered one costly war and a beloved monarch, and is fighting yet another war not even a year later from the last one. This would leave the FR world vulnerable, except for Evermeet, the Island nations, Halruaa and Thay (which is secure but has constant power struggles throughout its power hierarchy). Looking at this if an invading Earth force was to invade this would give them very favorable conditions of invasion. The Earth colitions might even be a welcomed sight if they choose to move in as a 'liberating force'. They could assert a strong base and assest these nations in combating their evils at the time. After such events are resolved they stay and offer to 'rebuild' nations while they learn more about their opponents and possibly hire or give spellcasters concessions if they teach us how to use magic. If Earth though just chooses to just attack everyone for this, then they would strike hard and fast and try to eliminate as many powerful factions FR had first. They would try and find these powerful mages and try to kill them through assassinations (that means sniping, garrett wire strangling, etc...). It would be save to assume that if these conflicts are still going on that they would have sent scouts to see these powerful magics at work. But if Faerun is given the time to make truce they would devestate our forces. Using all the tactics Derren S. has explained countless times. I think I posted a ways back that Earth could win if they could attack fast and hard and destroy any chance for reenforcements reaching the battle lines on FR side. But if it took them too long to effectively take out FRs stronger organizations and powerful nations. And to neutralize and keep the spellcasters from unifying as much as possible. The Earth forces would lose. Well anyways, I'm done blowing hot air. Adios all. :D
Ramius_Mordale 05-09-04, 09:42 PM	Still 24 hours isn't enough time to get everyone on FRs side to put down arms against one another and make a truce before the invasion. Okay now I'm done. :)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-09-04, 10:14 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 No again, stop putting words in my mouth. I never once said any thing about mages until YOU brought it up. Casters, be they divine or arcane will decimate troops, as would warriors, paladins, rogues, and any of the other core classes found in the PHB. yes. you keep stating that "Faerun will win" and I replied "only because the spellcasters are the only real offensive power they had" that's not "putting words in your mouth." you keep telling me that "because we'll sell them stuff, we'll win" when I most certainly did not. Yes WE, here on Earth, have enough oil to maybe last decades when used on EARTH, but you wanted to import it off Earth and to Faerun and that would cut our supply in half as well as the amount we import to Faerun. Again you try to build refineries, power plants, etc, in a world where there are people who can do some thing about it with magic or even nonmagic and see how well it works. One large lightening storm over a power plant would bring it to it's knees as well as the thousand lines of electric lines. selling oil and gas to the first few electric buildings on faerun would hardly be any kind of drain. it's not like we'd have to double the overall worldly output to run a few dozen or more stores in waterdeep or whereever. One large Earthquake under the power plant would destroy it or render it harmless until repaired, etc. Yes I'd still go with decades to even get these places running. Invisible assassins killing the people who run them or build them, spells causing them to be distrupted, etc. Hells again the US has been in Iraq for about a year and it took us at least a year or longer to get thier power back on and they already had prebuilt power plants and electric lines! and what's the richter scale on the druid's earthquake spell? the range? big whoop. these buildings can be upgraded and new ones can be built to withstand powerful earthquakes. Now factor in races and casters who can cause those things to be distrupted and you are looking at decades worth of building/repairing. The cost here on Earth in money and resources would be astronomical! you are, assuming of course, that these mages just show up on earth and start blasting when we have no means of defense. if we ever committed a war against faerun, we'd obviously have antimagic fields to protect these important installations and otherwise upgrade our military hardware. the mages would fall easily just becuase we'd have a few moderate defenses. "Oh yes, you mean this open plain belongs to you? Well we want to build on it. What do you mean we can't? Well are going to anyway and there is nothing you can do about it." Alusair, Alustrial, the Lords, Shade, Thay, or any other nation laughs in thier faces and calls upon thier casters, fighters, etc, and destroys the invaders. ever heard of diplomacy? negociations? "we'd like to use X area and are willing to do or trade Y for you." "well... that sounds like an excellent deal, but just be sure not to cause ecological damage to the area." "With the ranger and/or druid's help, it looks like our operation would be much more effective, efficient, and environmentally friendly. Thank you." also... anything but casters would be easily crushed. the casters would fall only if enough time passed to adequitely upgrade our military in order to do so. until then, we'd be at their mercy, but that also doesn't mean we'd be at war with them until then. Druids or other nature casters and nature races cause the invaders food to decay in less then two minutes, the invaders natural materials for their armor and clothing do the same, the invaders fuel sources start to explode with fire elementals or even magic. While the fighters, paladins, rogues, and other fighter types decimate the invaders unarmored troops. Hells a few well places fire elementals or spells could even explode the bullets before a battle even begins. those things require saves. they don't just 'make people evaporate/rot/whatever. remember, if we've actually commited against a war against these people, we probably have defenses against them, including antimagic, as per the 6th level spell. Sorry I just don't buy into the "We'll sell them TV's, low priced food, etc," theory. good. because i never gave that theory. I just said that we'd likely have commerse with them before the war actually began.
Kuje31 05-09-04, 11:04 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels selling oil and gas to the first few electric buildings on faerun would hardly be any kind of drain. it's not like we'd have to double the overall worldly output to run a few dozen or more stores in waterdeep or whereever. and what's the richter scale on the druid's earthquake spell? the range? big whoop. these buildings can be upgraded and new ones can be built to withstand powerful earthquakes. you are, assuming of course, that these mages just show up on earth and start blasting when we have no means of defense. if we ever committed a war against faerun, we'd obviously have antimagic fields to protect these important installations and otherwise upgrade our military hardware. the mages would fall easily just becuase we'd have a few moderate defenses. ever heard of diplomacy? negociations? "we'd like to use X area and are willing to do or trade Y for you." "well... that sounds like an excellent deal, but just be sure not to cause ecological damage to the area." "With the ranger and/or druid's help, it looks like our operation would be much more effective, efficient, and environmentally friendly. Thank you." also... anything but casters would be easily crushed. the casters would fall only if enough time passed to adequitely upgrade our military in order to do so. until then, we'd be at their mercy, but that also doesn't mean we'd be at war with them until then. those things require saves. they don't just 'make people evaporate/rot/whatever. remember, if we've actually commited against a war against these people, we probably have defenses against them, including antimagic, as per the 6th level spell. good. because i never gave that theory. I just said that we'd likely have commerse with them before the war actually began. Sorry the poster said we were using Earth's tech so no Earth does not have antimagic fields. Also then druids can continue to make stronger and stronger Earthquake or stronger and stronger Lightening bolt storms and Earth would just continue to be drained of resources as the try over and over to repair a power plant that keeps getting destroyed over and over by nature priests. A druids Earthquake is enough to bring down a building made out of stone and if you have many druids there is no way that a power plant can survive repeating castings of it. Each casting does 100 points of damage to the building. The Emerald Enclave can take care of that themselves if they wanted. Again no we obviously will not have antimagic tech or magic because the poster said we would only be using the tech that is only found right now on Earth. And no sorry but rogues, fighters, paladins, rangers, etc, would still outlast a gun shot, because if you are basing this on D&D rules then you have to also base Earth tech on D&D rules as well. One bullet will not kill a ranger, or a paladin, or a fighter, etc. Sorry but you are not going to negoate with a king of the country or the rulers, etc. Shade learned how well that went when they tried and lied to Cormyr and Watedeep. Land that is owned by nations are just not going to allow any one to step in and decide to take over it, especially if there are guilds, or nobles, etc, who already over see the buying and selling of supplies and goods. Ed has said it himself, if the Guilds or the people of Waterdeep decide they did not like the Lords or the Lord's laws they could take over Waterdeep and the Lords could not stop them. Have you ever tried to fight naked or without armor? A high level druid could rot any natural armor in less then two minutes. Food supplies could rot in less time then that and food does not get a save. And I still don't buy the we would start a mcdonalds, etc, because 1) Faerun has commerce and a lot of places are very picky about it. 2) it would take to long to even build such places and the resources to do so would be outragous. 3) again our modern stores, etc are dependent on electricity that does not exist in FR and would take years to decades to build. Good dragons are strong enough to set off fuel supplies or burn away all supply wagons, etc, and with thier dragon fear, most people would not be able to strike them if they do not have some way to combat dragon fear. Sorry but if Faerun is given 24 hour warning, Earth's troops would be decimated, between magic, monsters, undead, dragons, humanoids, fey, summonings, and who knows what else our troops would not stand a chance in a world filled with magic and strange races. I have to agree with one of the past posters, we might have seen devils and scary things on TV but its different when you see a real six armed being that is half snake and a naked half human female that is rolling through your troops as it cuts them in half with it's weapons while enjoying it. Or a tall horned red skinned being that slaughters people right and left. Your moral would be shot, as well as if some one suddenly summoned a real angel and it starts killing your friends and those you care for. Or a lizard like creature that is over hundreds of feet long that can breath fire or acid or lightening, etc. Also Faerun's diseases would also kill off many of Earth's attackers, while our diseases might do the same to some of Faerun's population. However, Faerun has cure disease while Earth just has medicine, which would NOT touch magical diseases.
Lokiyn 05-09-04, 11:53 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Okay well 1) the poster said both sides had 24 hr's notice if you go back to the first post. So there is no suprise on Faerun's side and in 24 hr's you can find a heck of a lot of allies with teleport, portals, summoning, etc. 2) there are NO NUKES BEING USED. 3) it's pretty easy to hit ground targets with lightening bolts since the druids spell that call's lightening can be aimed. :) I don't mean to quibble but if casters are going to pull out all the stops to stop earth i think its quite likely that if reports of decimation as per previous thread have stated the mages being able to cause the army i think a well placed tactical nuke or 30 wouldn't be to much of an overreaction. If epic spells are being tossed around i cant see earth holding back at all. i see cruise missles on any and all wizard towers and i don't think you are going to spot and stop a missle moving faster than sound with a d20 spot check even more so if it flies high and drops straight down on its target. Faerunians may have magic spells of incredible power but earth has the most powerful physical attacks immaginable. i don't care what your Dr is, if a burning ball of plasma goes off in your face unless you can survive immersion into the sun you are dead
Ramius_Mordale 05-10-04, 12:05 AM	In 24 hours they would have to contact every major power, head of state, city-state, dragon (which don't live very close to one another in large groups), orc warchief, dwarven king/clan leader, Evermeet, Halruaa, Mulhorund and any number of other creatures you can think of. Thats a very short time period, and the way the timeline has been going in FR all the way up to 1373, it would take awhile to set up cease fires, truces, what have you to stop all the wars going on and fueds. Look at our politics, it takes like a time to set up these alliances. To get all of Faerun, unitified under a full alliance to counter act the invasion force it will take a month, but more realistically, a whole year, to convince all these factions to join together to fight this new threat. Now I'm not saying certain casters couldn't turn their attention immidiately to the threat at hand, but self interest for one's self comes first. Every country would first begin to build up their defenses before they send a large force to defense. This is not to say, though that small forces would not be sent. Dragons just don't pick up and go when you call either. They are vastly more intelligent then most things on FR and Earth. First thing they would do is assest which side does better first, if we are speaking of evil dragons, before deciding to help. Good dragons would first examine then choose whether or not to assest. If casters are as effective as most of you elude to, they will obiviously ignore the call to arms. They don't stick there necks out for the lesser races, for they feel they are the surperior race. Why should they get their claws dirty fighting the lesser creatures war? Sure some fiendish creatures could be summoned and yes it would be terrifying. But thats why you kill fast and hard. From the sounds of it, using summoned creatures probably wouldn't be a tactic used until after the first few battles. Remember the standard tactics is to send your standard armies first not your more powerful individuals. One thing I think I read is that the standard D&D rules wouldn't apply and if they did, you'd probably have to base the rules for guns from the Spycraft game. They show more accurately the damage real life weapons would do. Then you'd probably have to switch the hit point system to the vitality points/wound points system to accurately depict the likely hood of death for higher level characters killed by lower level characters. Then you have to factor in tactics and strategy of the command structure of both sides. Yes some could be charmed or what have you, but these people would still get will saves or whatever the spell has you to save from. D&D's rules alone can't explain how combat realistically would go. Realistic combat is done by the professional soldier, not by the caster usually. Very few nations in FR have a spellcasters on ready and apart of their military hierarchy. This would also mean you'd have to get magic guilds too in that 24 hour period as well contracted. This means money, which means you'll have hundreds of mercenaries fighting for you. That is not a standard organized force that you are assembling at first. It would take the first six months for each side to really know each others capabilities. And during this time each side would adapt to each sides tactics and strategy. *Sigh*Well I could probably take this further but I'm done for now. Good journeys all.:)
Kuje31 05-10-04, 12:16 AM	Originally posted by Lokiyn I don't mean to quibble but if casters are going to pull out all the stops to stop earth i think its quite likely that if reports of decimation as per previous thread have stated the mages being able to cause the army i think a well placed tactical nuke or 30 wouldn't be to much of an overreaction. If epic spells are being tossed around i cant see earth holding back at all. i see cruise missles on any and all wizard towers and i don't think you are going to spot and stop a missle moving faster than sound with a d20 spot check even more so if it flies high and drops straight down on its target. Faerunians may have magic spells of incredible power but earth has the most powerful physical attacks immaginable. i don't care what your Dr is, if a burning ball of plasma goes off in your face unless you can survive immersion into the sun you are dead Earthquake and Call Lightening are not epic spells.
Kuje31 05-10-04, 12:31 AM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale In 24 hours they would have to contact every major power, head of state, city-state, dragon (which don't live very close to one another in large groups), orc warchief, dwarven king/clan leader, Evermeet, Halruaa, Mulhorund and any number of other creatures you can think of. Thats a very short time period, and the way the timeline has been going in FR all the way up to 1373, it would take awhile to set up cease fires, truces, what have you to stop all the wars going on and fueds. Look at our politics, it takes like a time to set up these alliances. To get all of Faerun, unitified under a full alliance to counter act the invasion force it will take a month, but more realistically, a whole year, to convince all these factions to join together to fight this new threat. Now I'm not saying certain casters couldn't turn their attention immidiately to the threat at hand, but self interest for one's self comes first. Every country would first begin to build up their defenses before they send a large force to defense. This is not to say, though that small forces would not be sent. Dragons just don't pick up and go when you call either. They are vastly more intelligent then most things on FR and Earth. First thing they would do is assest which side does better first, if we are speaking of evil dragons, before deciding to help. Good dragons would first examine then choose whether or not to assest. If casters are as effective as most of you elude to, they will obiviously ignore the call to arms. They don't stick there necks out for the lesser races, for they feel they are the surperior race. Why should they get their claws dirty fighting the lesser creatures war? Sure some fiendish creatures could be summoned and yes it would be terrifying. But thats why you kill fast and hard. From the sounds of it, using summoned creatures probably wouldn't be a tactic used until after the first few battles. Remember the standard tactics is to send your standard armies first not your more powerful individuals. One thing I think I read is that the standard D&D rules wouldn't apply and if they did, you'd probably have to base the rules for guns from the Spycraft game. They show more accurately the damage real life weapons would do. Then you'd probably have to switch the hit point system to the vitality points/wound points system to accurately depict the likely hood of death for higher level characters killed by lower level characters. Then you have to factor in tactics and strategy of the command structure of both sides. Yes some could be charmed or what have you, but these people would still get will saves or whatever the spell has you to save from. D&D's rules alone can't explain how combat realistically would go. Realistic combat is done by the professional soldier, not by the caster usually. Very few nations in FR have a spellcasters on ready and apart of their military hierarchy. This would also mean you'd have to get magic guilds too in that 24 hour period as well contracted. This means money, which means you'll have hundreds of mercenaries fighting for you. That is not a standard organized force that you are assembling at first. It would take the first six months for each side to really know each others capabilities. And during this time each side would adapt to each sides tactics and strategy. *Sigh*Well I could probably take this further but I'm done for now. Good journeys all.:) Nice, but how about the many dragons that live in Evermeet, or the many dragons that live in disguise in Waterdeep, Silverymoon, etc. They are not hard to contact if they are known to rulers of said nations. Let's see Faerun has got many divine and arcane casters who can teleport all over the world in an instant. The Chosen can also all hear each others names spoken and the next nine words. So right there they contact the Harpers, the Moonstars, and the thousands of allies and contacts they have when they realize they have 24 hr's to prepare. Then those contacts spread word and other casters, fighters, paladins, rangers, rogues, and any of the other core classes hear and they to spread word through thier guilds, temples, fighting schools, places of employment, etc. Soon, in less then a tenday, Faerun knows they are being invaded and every one bands together to fight off the invaders. It didn't take that long for the Dales, Cormyr, Zhent Keep, and other "evil" nations to band together to slaughter the Horde that came from the Hordelands. Nor did it take that long for Shade, Waterdeep, Evermeet, Evereska, and other nations to band together to fight off the attackers in Evereska. If the dragons are good aligned then yes they would help out and join the defenders because they live in Faerun as well. Funny there are many dragon species that do stick thier necks out for the "lesser" races. Other wise there would not be dragon riders in Evermeet and in many of the elven and human nations. Few nations in Faerun do not include casters in thier military? Are you kidding? Waterdeep, Cormyr, Zhent Keep, Amn, Thay Aglaround, Evermeet, Silverymoon, Evereska, Shade, Rashamen, Haluraa, and countless other nations all have mages and divine casters in thier standard armies or guards. Six months the "war" would be over and Faerun would be the winner and that is even giving Earth troops an advantage.
Lokiyn 05-10-04, 12:42 AM	i was refering to earlier threads where epic spells were mentioned also call lightning is still lightning and can be grounded. And unless earthquakes are opening up rifts in the ground and massive holes they are no match for shock absorbers and rubber baby buggy bummpers + i still say cruise missle strikes against id'd wizards towers is a logical tactic and i don't care if you are elminster an 80 megaton nuke going off on your pointy wizards hat is going to not hurt simply because you won't be feeling anything, period.
Kuje31 05-10-04, 01:05 AM	Originally posted by Lokiyn i was refering to earlier threads where epic spells were mentioned also call lightning is still lightning and can be grounded. And unless earthquakes are opening up rifts in the ground and massive holes they are no match for shock absorbers and rubber baby buggy bummpers + i still say cruise missle strikes against id'd wizards towers is a logical tactic and i don't care if you are elminster an 80 megaton nuke going off on your pointy wizards hat is going to not hurt simply because you won't be feeling anything, period. Yes it can be grounded but it would still fry electronics and electric lines. And if enough Earthquakes are used there isn't a building in existance that can withstand the damage those spells would cause over and over, I don't care if there are absorbers or not. And yes according to the spell it does case fissures. Also it would be pretty darn hard to find out who case it since the minimum the caster can be away is 1,000 feet from the target being attacked. 400 ft + 40 feet a level and it's a 7th or 8th level spell. You keep trying to build a power plant when every day the work you are trying to do keeps crumbling under you as the ground starts to shake. Or you try to attack some one when you are in that AoE since you can't stand up long enough to pull a trigger or press a button since you are knocked down.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-10-04, 01:17 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Sorry the poster said we were using Earth's tech so no Earth does not have antimagic fields. the original poster stated: Originally posted by Archangel Recently I found out that FR is connected to our world via forgotten portals. So let's say in our world those portals are found and a decision is made to try to take over a part of the Realms for its power and treasures. Let's say big enough portals are found in the oceans that whole carriers can get through. Let's say important FR NPCs are warned by the gods of this invasion that is going to happen VERY SOON(maybe in 24 hours or so). Now either side knows only little about the other (our side knows a little more since we are attacking). For the sake of the argument the portals cannot be closed just like that. Who will win? I don't see anything that the original poster stating that the attack was imminent (upon discovering the portals) nor do I see anything stating that we wouldn't know enough about our enemies to have potent and likely magical defenses, such as an antimagic field. Furthermore, I'd rather elaborate on closer to what -would- actually happen. Also then druids can continue to make stronger and stronger Earthquake or stronger and stronger Lightening bolt storms and Earth would just continue to be drained of resources as the try over and over to repair a power plant that keeps getting destroyed over and over by nature priests. A druids Earthquake is enough to bring down a building made out of stone and if you have many druids there is no way that a power plant can survive repeating castings of it. Each casting does 100 points of damage to the building. The Emerald Enclave can take care of that themselves if they wanted. our buildings are not simply stone buildings. especially the larger buildings can withstand major earthquakes, depending on which individual buildings, where, and when. furthermore, these druids would likely die as soon as they are discovered. and how many druids know what building is a power plant as opposed to another building is simply a refinery? how many would actually care and how many druids are collaborating well enough to stage such an attack? another thing... ever heard of a lightning rod? Druid magical lightning (as per call lightning) is not nearly as strong as real lightning and most strikes would simply pass through its target since most buildings these days are grounded. You seem to keep assuming that we're completely defenseless and the terrans so stupid that we couldn't see something of this nature coming and mount some defense for it. It's always well, mage blah can cast ray of frost and people will be dying left and right. people have saving throws, modern buildings are (generally) resistant to environmental effects, and, if we were to commit to an all out war, we'd have prepared by making sure some idiotic spellcaster couldn't just waltz into a major power plant and make it go up in flames. simply saying that they can and the terrans can't do anything about is completely unrealistic. Again no we obviously will not have antimagic tech or magic because the poster said we would only be using the tech that is only found right now on Earth.the poster said no such thing. And no sorry but rogues, fighters, paladins, rangers, etc, would still outlast a gun shot, because if you are basing this on D&D rules then you have to also base Earth tech on D&D rules as well. One bullet will not kill a ranger, or a paladin, or a fighter, etc. and, as they say, a gun shot to the head is a gun shot to the head. sorry, but common sense rules. a high level rogue vs. a direct shot with a trained soldier with a gattling gun equals a pile of bloody chunks that used to be a rogue. they can't outlast squat. Sorry but you are not going to negoate with a king of the country or the rulers, etc. Shade learned how well that went when they tried and lied to Cormyr and Watedeep. Land that is owned by nations are just not going to allow any one to step in and decide to take over it, especially if there are guilds, or nobles, etc, who already over see the buying and selling of supplies and goods. Ed has said it himself, if the Guilds or the people of Waterdeep decide they did not like the Lords or the Lord's laws they could take over Waterdeep and the Lords could not stop them.[/quoye] I never said that they'd "walk in and take over." I said our commercial interest groups, corperations, and buisinesses would probably want to negociate to do business with them. whether it's starting up some earth-based businesses or a few mines. I never said that they'd walk in and take it. You're twisting my words around. Not everything we'd do would be hostile and not everything we do would be interpreted as such. [quote]Have you ever tried to fight naked or without armor? A high level druid could rot any natural armor in less then two minutes. Food supplies could rot in less time then that and food does not get a save. soldiers are trained to live off the land if they have to. how many soldiers have you ever seen fight encased in armor? notice that you said " a high level druid" and how many of those are there? THey're grossly outnumbered and they wouldn't all cooperate with each other. Furthermore, each druid that didn't survive a battle with the terrans is a major loss. And I still don't buy the we would start a mcdonalds, etc, because 1) Faerun has commerce and a lot of places are very picky about it. 2) it would take to long to even build such places and the resources to do so would be outragous. 3) again our modern stores, etc are dependent on electricity that does not exist in FR and would take years to decades to build. "buy" whatever you want. electricity is easy for us to make using one method or another. no doubt that magic would introduce more methods. just because faerun has commerse has no bearing. our commercial enterprises would likely enter into the Faerunian market in any way that it could. It doesn't take decades to build a single generater. In fact, buildings can be made to be completely self sufficient. it would just be more expensive. looking at my stronghold builder's guide, I can also see several cheap magic items that could easily make the transition easier. Good dragons are strong enough to set off fuel supplies or burn away all supply wagons, etc, and with thier dragon fear, most people would not be able to strike them if they do not have some way to combat dragon fear. why would a dragon care? dragons are far from common, they're easily beatable. they don't dodge very well, and older ones are very, very rare. Sorry but if Faerun is given 24 hour warning, Earth's troops would be decimated, between magic, monsters, undead, dragons, humanoids, fey, summonings, and who knows what else our troops would not stand a chance in a world filled with magic and strange races. Faerun couldn't do squat in 24 hours except mobilize their defenses, which would mean nothing to the terrans. They'd get squashed flat. I have to agree with one of the past posters, we might have seen devils and scary things on TV but its different when you see a real six armed being that is half snake and a naked half human female that is rolling through your troops as it cuts them in half with it's weapons while enjoying it. Or a tall horned red skinned being that slaughters people right and left. Your moral would be shot, as well as if some one suddenly summoned a real angel and it starts killing your friends and those you care for. Or a lizard like creature that is over hundreds of feet long that can breath fire or acid or lightening, etc. ... right. because earth just suddenly attacks faerun as soon as the portals open into unknown territory against unknown creatures with unknown abilities and an unknown method of attacks. and we do it by blindly shooting randomly at anything that moves and mages are already mobilizing resources to make planetkilling epic spells and are already decimating the troops. ... right. Also Faerun's diseases would also kill off many of Earth's attackers, while our diseases might do the same to some of Faerun's population. However, Faerun has cure disease while Earth just has medicine, which would NOT touch magical diseases. whoop de doo. cure disease. like that ever stopped a plague. how about a genetically mutated anthrax or ebola or some other horrible virus that we can easily make in a laboratory?
Ramius_Mordale 05-10-04, 01:26 AM	Well in a book world, I suppose life is easy and clear cut. But when your a leader, just cause some people called the Chosen show up on your door step doesn't mean you have to jump to help them out. To point to a more realistic approach of how people would react would be in LOTR: Return of the King, when the Stewart of Gondur (sp?) refuses to assist Gandolf or even listen to him for that matter. Good dragons always helping out good creatures? Really, then where were they to help Unther? Or why don't they help the Simbul destroy Thay? I didn't say no dragons would join the call, but it says most dragons are arrogant and selfish. You think I'm making this up, check the descriptions for yourself. I'm always reading on how selfish and greedy they are, yes even under the good ones as well. Though I will note that good dragons don't go around demanding tribute from them. Dragonriders in Evermeet. Alright, didn't know that, but how many do they really have? Maybe a few hundred, and what age catagory would they all be? That decides a lot. I know in the dragonlance campaign that bronze dragons up to adult usually are the ones being ridden by the riders. I know throughout history some dragons have help the goodly races in time of great need. But not all dragons. And just cause good dragons are good doesn't mean they have to feel like they must save all good creatures. If they are bounded to keeping Evermeet safe they will with great vigor. But outside of that they may refuse to fight away from Evermeet for they feel it is best to protect Evermeet from harm and wish not to risk it. What are the dragonriders and elves going to do, kill their dragons for refusing to fight for their allies? To the Dragons they see their only allies as being those they have agreed to protected not their (being elves not dragons) allies. Again there is always an exception to this. I'm just pointing out what could possibly happen. And I still think that the war would last six months. Why would the Chosen know about us invading? None of us would know their names to start off with. And yes the Chosen know a lot of people but that doesn't mean those people would help them if they disagreed with them. I just think it is an unfair assumption that everyone is just going to stop fighting because these few people said so. FR has been in the midst of war for a whole year. Some nations have been in constant struggle for more then that. City-states always disagree about why they should get involved and/or why should they send such a large force to help out such and such rival. This type of stuff would be happening on Earth, you don't think it wouldn't happen on Faerun? That's being a little optimistic in my opinion, if you ask me. The Horde was a huge threat, thats why Thay bargained with them not to attack them, because they knew they could beat the Horde but at the end of it they would have probably been invaded by their many enemies at their weakened state. It took five more or less nations to turn back the tungain horde, and they had just bows and arrows and very little magic. And they still had a hard time turning them back. The horde wasn't a pushover in the very least and left a definiate mark on those lands it did touch. If the horde can do that then I think the troops from Earth would greatly impact it and tear it apart. I didn't say that FR couldn't set up a decent repelling attack. I believe I said if Earth could wipe out or isolate, physcially not magically, the more powerful resistance groups and nations first, they would win. But if FR could set up a decent defense and slow Earth's advance they would win the war. But mobilizing a huge force would take time for FR to do, even with all the portals they have. Teleport only works if you know an area extremely well. How many wizards have been everywhere in the realms? I know probably the Chosen, but most Halruaan wizards stay in Halruaa from the description it says in the FRCS. Also put in that some nations are isolationist by being that way for hundreds of years in some cases. They may just refuse to help. This doesn't mean however that citizens wouldn't go to take the fight to the enemy, as US citizens did in WW2 before the US entered the War, they went and fought for the British and French armies. Mulhorand would hesistate since they are more concentrated on keeping their new territory they gained. So they would probably be a questionable nation to join the FR colition. Thay may decide to send a small force that far west, just to learn about the invading force then prepare at home for the most part. Evereska was attacked solely so many people just decided to come to their aid. Then later it became a lot of peoples war. If we invaded there would be no single area we would just attack. We would attack multiple targets and weaken their infrastructure. If we can't beat them through force of arms then we will burn their fields and try to cut off their resources. Destroying mines and what not. Faerun needs its resources just as we need ours. If Faerun decides to kick our ass with epic spells there is scortch earth. We are notorously known, in Earth history, to be spiteful and if we can't have it then they can't either attitude. No nations or peoples are innocient of this argument. And now I'm done for this evening. I just want to point out, that I am just stating points and that I am just giving an oppostition to the FR argument and to give the debate an equal balance. Each side I always give a fair share of supporting details to why or why not they might do this or not. With that said, Adios. :D
Kuje31 05-10-04, 01:35 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels our buildings are not simply stone buildings. especially the larger buildings can withstand major earthquakes, depending on which individual buildings, where, and when. furthermore, these druids would likely die as soon as they are discovered. and how many druids know what building is a power plant as opposed to another building is simply a refinery? how many would actually care and how many druids are collaborating well enough to stage such an attack? another thing... ever heard of a lightning rod? Druid magical lightning (as per call lightning) is not nearly as strong as real lightning and most strikes would simply pass through its target since most buildings these days are grounded. You seem to keep assuming that we're completely defenseless and the terrans so stupid that we couldn't see something of this nature coming and mount some defense for it. It's always well, mage blah can cast ray of frost and people will be dying left and right. people have saving throws, modern buildings are (generally) resistant to environmental effects, and, if we were to commit to an all out war, we'd have prepared by making sure some idiotic spellcaster couldn't just waltz into a major power plant and make it go up in flames. simply saying that they can and the terrans can't do anything about is completely unrealistic. the poster said no such thing. and, as they say, a gun shot to the head is a gun shot to the head. sorry, but common sense rules. a high level rogue vs. a direct shot with a trained soldier with a gattling gun equals a pile of bloody chunks that used to be a rogue. they can't outlast squat. soldiers are trained to live off the land if they have to. how many soldiers have you ever seen fight encased in armor? notice that you said " a high level druid" and how many of those are there? THey're grossly outnumbered and they wouldn't all cooperate with each other. Furthermore, each druid that didn't survive a battle with the terrans is a major loss. "buy" whatever you want. electricity is easy for us to make using one method or another. no doubt that magic would introduce more methods. just because faerun has commerse has no bearing. our commercial enterprises would likely enter into the Faerunian market in any way that it could. It doesn't take decades to build a single generater. In fact, buildings can be made to be completely self sufficient. it would just be more expensive. looking at my stronghold builder's guide, I can also see several cheap magic items that could easily make the transition easier. why would a dragon care? dragons are far from common, they're easily beatable. they don't dodge very well, and older ones are very, very rare. Faerun couldn't do squat in 24 hours except mobilize their defenses, which would mean nothing to the terrans. They'd get squashed flat. ... right. because earth just suddenly attacks faerun as soon as the portals open into unknown territory against unknown creatures with unknown abilities and an unknown method of attacks. and we do it by blindly shooting randomly at anything that moves and mages are already mobilizing resources to make planetkilling epic spells and are already decimating the troops. ... right. whoop de doo. cure disease. like that ever stopped a plague. how about a genetically mutated anthrax or ebola or some other horrible virus that we can easily make in a laboratory? There are hundreds of high level druids going by the D&D rules. No, sorry if you want to play that game then Dragon fire, a fireball, lightening bolts, etc would still decimate Earth troops. You can't use D&D rules for Faerun and nonD&D rules for Earth. And again bring in at least ten druids who can stand 1,000 feet away and they can bring down any building be it stone or not, with a Earthquake spell. That is 1,000 points of damage to a building, it will not survive that. The poster said we are only using Tech that EXISTS RIGHT NOW! And again he also said that Faerun has 24 hr's to prepare. Electicity from Earth is not as easy as you keep making it out to be and I've proven this over and over and over again. So our buildings here on Earth are grounded but when you are building a power plant it will not be grounded until it is completly finished and who cares anyway since an Earthquake spell would finish it off daily. Again for the last time you can't mix and match rules either it's all D&D or it isn't. If we are not using the D&D rules then Faerun still wins because Fireball, Dragons breath, etc, would wipe out soliders in the thousands. Um sorry also but a spell that comes from a deity is a lot stronger then any disease that could be created through science and science could not cure magical spells since Earth has no medicine currently to fight off magical diseases. If you are not using Earth tech as it currently stands then you could just say Earth has a space ship that can navigate all of the solar system and has flying cars on Earth, etc.
Kuje31 05-10-04, 01:56 AM	Originally posted by Ramius_Mordale Well in a book world, I suppose life is easy and clear cut. But when your a leader, just cause some people called the Chosen show up on your door step doesn't mean you have to jump to help them out. To point to a more realistic approach of how people would react would be in LOTR: Return of the King, when the Stewart of Gondur (sp?) refuses to assist Gandolf or even listen to him for that matter. Good dragons always helping out good creatures? Really, then where were they to help Unther? Or why don't they help the Simbul destroy Thay? I didn't say no dragons would join the call, but it says most dragons are arrogant and selfish. You think I'm making this up, check the descriptions for yourself. I'm always reading on how selfish and greedy they are, yes even under the good ones as well. Though I will note that good dragons don't go around demanding tribute from them. Dragonriders in Evermeet. Alright, didn't know that, but how many do they really have? Maybe a few hundred, and what age catagory would they all be? That decides a lot. I know in the dragonlance campaign that bronze dragons up to adult usually are the ones being ridden by the riders. I know throughout history some dragons have help the goodly races in time of great need. But not all dragons. And just cause good dragons are good doesn't mean they have to feel like they must save all good creatures. If they are bounded to keeping Evermeet safe they will with great vigor. But outside of that they may refuse to fight away from Evermeet for they feel it is best to protect Evermeet from harm and wish not to risk it. What are the dragonriders and elves going to do, kill their dragons for refusing to fight for their allies? To the Dragons they see their only allies as being those they have agreed to protected not their (being elves not dragons) allies. Again there is always an exception to this. I'm just pointing out what could possibly happen. And I still think that the war would last six months. Why would the Chosen know about us invading? None of us would know their names to start off with. And yes the Chosen know a lot of people but that doesn't mean those people would help them if they disagreed with them. I just think it is an unfair assumption that everyone is just going to stop fighting because these few people said so. FR has been in the midst of war for a whole year. Some nations have been in constant struggle for more then that. City-states always disagree about why they should get involved and/or why should they send such a large force to help out such and such rival. This type of stuff would be happening on Earth, you don't think it wouldn't happen on Faerun? That's being a little optimistic in my opinion, if you ask me. The Horde was a huge threat, thats why Thay bargained with them not to attack them, because they knew they could beat the Horde but at the end of it they would have probably been invaded by their many enemies at their weakened state. It took five more or less nations to turn back the tungain horde, and they had just bows and arrows and very little magic. And they still had a hard time turning them back. The horde wasn't a pushover in the very least and left a definiate mark on those lands it did touch. If the horde can do that then I think the troops from Earth would greatly impact it and tear it apart. I didn't say that FR couldn't set up a decent repelling attack. I believe I said if Earth could wipe out or isolate, physcially not magically, the more powerful resistance groups and nations first, they would win. But if FR could set up a decent defense and slow Earth's advance they would win the war. But mobilizing a huge force would take time for FR to do, even with all the portals they have. Teleport only works if you know an area extremely well. How many wizards have been everywhere in the realms? I know probably the Chosen, but most Halruaan wizards stay in Halruaa from the description it says in the FRCS. Also put in that some nations are isolationist by being that way for hundreds of years in some cases. They may just refuse to help. This doesn't mean however that citizens wouldn't go to take the fight to the enemy, as US citizens did in WW2 before the US entered the War, they went and fought for the British and French armies. Mulhorand would hesistate since they are more concentrated on keeping their new territory they gained. So they would probably be a questionable nation to join the FR colition. Thay may decide to send a small force that far west, just to learn about the invading force then prepare at home for the most part. Evereska was attacked solely so many people just decided to come to their aid. Then later it became a lot of peoples war. If we invaded there would be no single area we would just attack. We would attack multiple targets and weaken their infrastructure. If we can't beat them through force of arms then we will burn their fields and try to cut off their resources. Destroying mines and what not. Faerun needs its resources just as we need ours. If Faerun decides to kick our ass with epic spells there is scortch earth. We are notorously known, in Earth history, to be spiteful and if we can't have it then they can't either attitude. No nations or peoples are innocient of this argument. And now I'm done for this evening. I just want to point out, that I am just stating points and that I am just giving an oppostition to the FR argument and to give the debate an equal balance. Each side I always give a fair share of supporting details to why or why not they might do this or not. With that said, Adios. :D Are those nations invaders from another world? No I don't think so. So sorry, but yes good dragons would help the defenders since they to live in the world that is being invaded. Some of the dragons in Evermeet are hundreds of years old before they even went into statis. There is also another nation around Moonsea that has dragons in it's military. It's in the new book by Mr. Byers. The nations do know who Khelben, Storm, El etc are. No they don't know they are Chosen but again if Faerun has 24 hr's to prepare then some one tells the Harpers, the Moonstars, and the hundreds of other secret nations and in less then a tenday word of a invasion will spread since you have sending, message, and other magic to contact people, plus criers in the streets, etc. It's not a unfair assumption then when you are being invaded by a outside force you put aside your differences. Zhent keep has done it, Shade has done it, etc. The horde was decimated again because of magic since the Horde did not have much magic. Sorched Earth is nice and all but when you have nature priests it doesn't mean jack when they can just regrow crops. Besides the poster said Earth was there to conquor not destroy. If Earth starts bombing mines then you will anger the mind flayer's and drow and dwarves, etc. You DO NOT want an angry mind flayer messing with you.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 02:10 AM	*sigh* Before continuing we should finally decide if we use D&D rules or not. Rules: Neither Faerunian people or people from Earth can be killed in one shot unless low level. Fire weapons do only slightly more damage than swords. Faerunian non-casters aren't completly useless and everyone gets saving throws against spells. non-rules. One hit kills unless protected in some way, Firearms are much better than bows&swords but there are no saving throws against spells which are nearly all instant kill spells now. Choose whatever you like, either way Faerun has the advantage.
Kuje31 05-10-04, 02:23 AM	Can't believe I got suckered back into this thread. :) :angel:
Gemstone 05-10-04, 02:54 AM	I just have to ask this question... When the thread started, the subject was FR against US? and now, you have removed earth's most powerful means and ways to win, nukes etc. without our most powerful ways to win, we would lose, and so would FR without their mages...
Derren S. 05-10-04, 02:59 AM	Originally posted by Gemstone I just have to ask this question... When the thread started, the subject was FR against US? and now, you have removed earth's most powerful means and ways to win, nukes etc. without our most powerful ways to win, we would lose, and so would FR without their mages... Faerun would still win without its most powerfull weapons, namely shadows and massive destruction epic spells.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-10-04, 03:14 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 There are hundreds of high level druids going by the D&D rules. No, sorry if you want to play that game then Dragon fire, a fireball, lightening bolts, etc would still decimate Earth troops. You can't use D&D rules for Faerun and nonD&D rules for Earth. and hundreds of thousands of stray bullets, tank rounds, bombs, and missiles would probably do the same. And again bring in at least ten druids who can stand 1,000 feet away and they can bring down any building be it stone or not, with a Earthquake spell. That is 1,000 points of damage to a building, it will not survive that. oh really, I wasn't aware that multiple spells occupying one area could do cumulative damage. from what I know, they aren't. likely, it would shake the building and ruffle up the people and equipment inside, but the building would not fall, unless the druids are capable of creating an earthquake that could level an entire city or better. the kind that are well above Richter scale 7.0. The poster said we are only using Tech that EXISTS RIGHT NOW! And again he also said that Faerun has 24 hr's to prepare. Electicity from Earth is not as easy as you keep making it out to be and I've proven this over and over and over again. I don't care what the original poster said. It's unrealistic to assume that we -wouldn't- be developing specialized equipment to fight these threats. also, children can create electricity in various grade school projects. such as by doing this, which I took from http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/project368_29.html: This is an AC electric generator which is capable of lighting up a tiny incandescent light bulb. The generator is made up of a hollow-ended cardboard box with a nail through the center, many turns of copper wire wound around the box, and four larger magnets clamped around the nail. When the nail and magnets are spun fast by hand, the little light bulb lights up dimly. magic electricity, solar power, wind power, etc. etc. etc. can all be employed in gasoline or oil's abscence. So our buildings here on Earth are grounded but when you are building a power plant it will not be grounded until it is completly finished and who cares anyway since an Earthquake spell would finish it off daily. again... unless we're talking about a city-leveling earthquake, it ain't happening. Again for the last time you can't mix and match rules either it's all D&D or it isn't. If we are not using the D&D rules then Faerun still wins because Fireball, Dragons breath, etc, would wipe out soliders in the thousands. .... uh.. no. earth has better weapons than that. Um sorry also but a spell that comes from a deity is a lot stronger then any disease that could be created through science and science could not cure magical spells since Earth has no medicine currently to fight off magical diseases. ??? now what are you talking about? since when are the dieties involved? last time I checked, they weren't. If you are not using Earth tech as it currently stands then you could just say Earth has a space ship that can navigate all of the solar system and has flying cars on Earth, etc. and you keep saying that all these spellcasters just show up at our most vaulnerable building as if they strided in unchallenged and always using the best spells, stratagies, and allienances to defeat us, whereas you give the terrans all the fighting power of a rotted stick when that is not the case by a long shot. At the very least, earth is capable of rivalling the faerunian offensive power. realistically speaking, however, I personally doubt that the discovery of the open portals of earth and formalized contact with faerun would result in war in the least.
Kuje31 05-10-04, 03:36 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels and hundreds of thousands of stray bullets, tank rounds, bombs, and missiles would probably do the same. oh really, I wasn't aware that multiple spells occupying one area could do cumulative damage. from what I know, they aren't. likely, it would shake the building and ruffle up the people and equipment inside, but the building would not fall, unless the druids are capable of creating an earthquake that could level an entire city or better. the kind that are well above Richter scale 7.0. I don't care what the original poster said. It's unrealistic to assume that we -wouldn't- be developing specialized equipment to fight these threats. magic electricity, solar power, wind power, etc. etc. etc. can all be employed in gasoline or oil's abscence. again... unless we're talking about a city-leveling earthquake, it ain't happening. .... uh.. no. earth has better weapons than that. ??? now what are you talking about? since when are the dieties involved? last time I checked, they weren't. and you keep saying that all these spellcasters just show up at our most vaulnerable building as if they strided in unchallenged and always using the best spells, stratagies, and allienances to defeat us, whereas you give the terrans all the fighting power of a rotted stick when that is not the case by a long shot. At the very least, earth is capable of rivalling the faerunian offensive power. realistically speaking, however, I personally doubt that the discovery of the open portals of earth and formalized contact with faerun would result in war in the least. Really then how come um fireballs or a pair of druids working together with Call lightening or Earthquake does happen. Sorry but two or more druids casting the same spell would effect a building as large as a power plant or any building that is not built of stone that a lone druid can not take down. And since the Earthquake spell does cause fissures in the ground, sooner or later, probably in less then a hr or two said building would collaspe. I didn't say the gods are involved I said that the DIVINE spells that come from the gods, would remove any disease that comes from science, or didn't you know that there are no divine casters in FR without the gods, since divine casters in FR can not worship a "force" and get spells they have to worship a god. Fine pick one, are we using the D&D rules are arnt we? If so then Protection from Arrows stops bullets. Also how about invisiblity? With that then no one can see those casters, so yes they can stride right up and do what they wish to the building as well as the army. Dragon goes invis and appears right in the middle of the army sending dragon fear to every one. Kiss Earth's army goodbye.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-10-04, 03:49 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Really then how come um fireballs or a pair of druids working together with Call lightening or Earthquake does happen. Sorry but two or more druids casting the same spell would effect a building as large as a power plant or any building that is not built of stone that a lone druid can not take down. And since the Earthquake spell does cause fissures in the ground, sooner or later, probably in less then a hr or two said building would collaspe. by then, either the druid would be dead or the spell would be neutralized or both. assuming the druid actually was able to arrive at the plant in the first place. I didn't say the gods are involved I said that the DIVINE spells that come from the gods, would remove any disease that comes from science, or didn't you know that there are no divine casters in FR without the gods, since divine casters in FR can not worship a "force" and get spells they have to worship a god. you said "spells that came from a diety." I'm sorry I misinterpreted that, but you didn't state in very clearly exactly where the spell was coming from. yes, cure disease will remove any one disease from any one person. that isn't in question. how many of these cure diseases would have to be cast -daily- in order to stop a plague that infects thousands every few mintues? Most diseases that we could engineer work so fast, I don't think there are enough druids, clerics, and paladins to stop them all. Furthermore, a cleric or druid or whatever that's busy curing disease is one less cleric or druid or whatever that's on the battlefield. Fine pick one, are we using the D&D rules are arnt we? If so then Protection from Arrows stops bullets. Also how about invisiblity? With that then no one can see those casters, so yes they can stride right up and do what they wish to the building as well as the army.I'll use common sense and logic where applicable. D&D rules where real, physical rules do not exist. or whatever I've been doing up until presesnt. Dragon goes invis and appears right in the middle of the army sending dragon fear to every one. Kiss Earth's army goodbye. one ground-piercing, heat-seeking cruise missile = one dead dragon.
Kuje31 05-10-04, 03:57 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels by then, either the druid would be dead or the spell would be neutralized or both. assuming the druid actually was able to arrive at the plant in the first place. you said "spells that came from a diety." I'm sorry I misinterpreted that, but you didn't state in very clearly exactly where the spell was coming from. yes, cure disease will remove any one disease from any one person. that isn't in question. how many of these cure diseases would have to be cast -daily- in order to stop a plague that infects thousands every few mintues? Most diseases that we could engineer work so fast, I don't think there are enough druids, clerics, and paladins to stop them all. Furthermore, a cleric or druid or whatever that's busy curing disease is one less cleric or druid or whatever that's on the battlefield. I'll use common sense and logic where applicable. D&D rules where real, physical rules do not exist. or whatever I've been doing up until presesnt. one ground-piercing, heat-seeking cruise missile = one dead dragon. Nope since that druid or druids would be invis and at least 1,000 feet away. Earthquake has a range of 400 feet plus 40ft a level. Also if Earth starts to send out plagues, etc, it breaks the negotations as well as the "Earth came here to conqour, not kill," premise this thread was started on. You can't conquor a world that is all dead. Invis again blocks heat signitures so sorry, no dead dragon, and it would decimate troops before any one even knew it was within thier camp. You are mix and matching rules since earlier you said one gun shot wound, one dead fighter. Fine then, one crossbow bolt through the heart or head of a soldier, one dead soldier. You can't have it both ways, either you use the D&D rules or you don't. Either way Faerun wins. One fireball in the nonD&D rules would decimate Earth's forces, and don't even get me started on dragon breath. Then factor things that can shrug off hits like demons, devils, upper planars, undead, etc, and moral of Earth's forces would be zilch. Bring in some giants, trolls, and other monstrous humanoids and Earth's forces would still be decimated. Sorry Tech does not beat the combined things that could be brought together on Faerun. Also the poster who started this thread said Earth would take each nation one by one, thus leaving the other nations to learn of the fall and quickly form together for defense or to counter attack.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-10-04, 04:28 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Nope since that druid or druids would be invis and at least 1,000 feet away. Earthquake has a range of 400 feet plus 40ft a level. Also if Earth starts to send out plagues, etc, it breaks the negotations as well as the "Earth came here to conqour, not kill," premise this thread was started on. You can't conquor a world that is all dead. Invis again blocks heat signitures so sorry, no dead dragon, and it would decimate troops before any one even knew it was within thier camp. You are mix and matching rules since earlier you said one gun shot wound, one dead fighter. Fine then, one crossbow bolt through the heart or head of a soldier, one dead soldier. You can't have it both ways, either you use the D&D rules or you don't. Either way Faerun wins. One fireball in the nonD&D rules would decimate Earth's forces, and don't even get me started on dragon breath. invisibility does not mask heat signitures. read the description for invisibility. it makes the caster invisible to sight. sight involves detecting the light waves that reflect off of whatever it's hitting. darkvision is sight, but in complete darkness. darkvision is not infravision. nothing that I'm aware of in D&D has infravision. the dragon dies. secondly, I never said that faerunians couldn't kill terran soldiers. one hit kills or otherwise. And no sorry but rogues, fighters, paladins, rangers, etc, would still outlast a gun shot, because if you are basing this on D&D rules then you have to also base Earth tech on D&D rules as well. One bullet will not kill a ranger, or a paladin, or a fighter, etc. it's ridiculous to assume that these classes are any more resistant to gunshot wounds that equally experienced terran soldiers. this is the situation in a D&D game in which "common sense" rules out game mechanics. Even when playing a regular D&D game, a crossbow bolt to the head is death, depending on the circumstances. Just as it would be in real life. it isn't "mixing and matching." finally, fireballs would decimate the terran forces, yes, but not nearly as badly as we would level their forces. we have far more and better guns and weapons than they have. even mages can be brought down and they aren't easily replaceable since they're the only real force behind the faerunian's power and they aren't -in any way- especially common in reletive terms. oh, yes, and reguarding "plagues." an empty planet is easily conquerable. a plague that was induced upon the populous would, or at least should have an engineered antidote and the new terran inhabitants of faerun would simply move in their place and begin establishing an infrastructure.
mortellan 05-10-04, 05:10 AM	Rule#3 of the discussion: Every spellcaster of every race in Toril has invisibility. This hasn't been broached yet...I find it interesting that this is a potential for 'friendly fire' deaths. Happens in real life, no reason to believe it can't in FR. When so many fireballing, lightning bolting, earthquaking, dragon breathing, monster summoning casters are invisible, its going to get ugly. Fog of war ya know. I ain't saying spell users can't be organized, the smartest ones would be. But the more ethically and nationally diverse casters you put together, the less organized they will be. The tactics of the Harpers certainly won't mesh with those of the Red Wizards, in fact they might be competing a little overzealously to kill Earthlings first, resulting in accidents. And still if the wizards are all on the same page, the more casters you get involved the higher the risk. If anyone else has had a party of 3-4 20th level casters in their game they would know the chaos. Now make them all invisible where only the DM knows where everyone is at. The PCs will slay each other unless they stand perfectly still, which makes them targets for counter attacks, or they have a way to see each other. potential rule #4: Every spellcaster of every race in Toril has see invisibility.
Anthor Del Niera 05-10-04, 05:27 AM	Alright, I'll take a shot at this. Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels by then, either the druid would be dead or the spell would be neutralized or both. assuming the druid actually was able to arrive at the plant in the first place.[/b} You seem to be disregarding wildshape and shapechange. That squirrel strikes me as harmless. Will you kill it? I thought not. What of that bird? What of that fly? [b} you said "spells that came from a diety." I'm sorry I misinterpreted that, but you didn't state in very clearly exactly where the spell was coming from. yes, cure disease will remove any one disease from any one person. that isn't in question. how many of these cure diseases would have to be cast -daily- in order to stop a plague that infects thousands every few mintues? <snip> Um... there aren't any plagues that can hit thousands every few minutes. They simply don't exist; sorry, man. Also, it's very easy for someone to create an area affecting immunity to disease spell. I'll use common sense and logic where applicable. D&D rules where real, physical rules do not exist. or whatever I've been doing up until presesnt. No. That's holding the whole thing to a ridiculous double standard. A sword to the heart is going to kill you too; hit point represent more than just being tough. They represent the ability to turn a direct hit into a glancing blow with no serious consequences. They represent just plain luck. Not getting hit and taking it. You need a standard system that you will compare the two, or else you are simply babbling. one ground-piercing, heat-seeking cruise missile = one dead dragon. Dragons are coldblooded, friend.
Anthor Del Niera 05-10-04, 05:33 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels invisibility does not mask heat signitures. read the description for invisibility. it makes the caster invisible to sight. sight involves detecting the light waves that reflect off of whatever it's hitting. darkvision is sight, but in complete darkness. darkvision is not infravision. nothing that I'm aware of in D&D has infravision. the dragon dies. Infravision would be entirely possible with magic; as you seem to refuse to specify a system, I'll system cite 2e and say that all sorts of things can have it. Awesome. secondly, I never said that faerunians couldn't kill terran soldiers. one hit kills or otherwise. it's ridiculous to assume that these classes are any more resistant to gunshot wounds that equally experienced terran soldiers. this is the situation in a D&D game in which "common sense" rules out game mechanics. Even when playing a regular D&D game, a crossbow bolt to the head is death, depending on the circumstances. Just as it would be in real life. it isn't "mixing and matching." See my explanation of the nature of hit points in the above post. finally, fireballs would decimate the terran forces, yes, but not nearly as badly as we would level their forces. we have far more and better guns and weapons than they have. even mages can be brought down and they aren't easily replaceable since they're the only real force behind the faerunian's power and they aren't -in any way- especially common in reletive terms. Yes, mages are easily brought down. When you get a magical weapon. All of the people that go into real combat ( a few hundred, no more are really needed) will be protected with the Starmantle spell. Those bullets make wonderful light, don't they? oh, yes, and reguarding "plagues." an empty planet is easily conquerable. a plague that was induced upon the populous would, or at least should have an engineered antidote and the new terran inhabitants of faerun would simply move in their place and begin establishing an infrastructure. This is your best bet, but do you really think it would work? As I stated, a single epic cleric can craft a spell designed to fix that. And you're still stuck with a lot of clerics, most of the paladins, a lot of nasty monks, constructs, undead, outsiders, and some enormous amount of other types. Best of luck with the Shades, the Chosen, and Larloch! Not to mention Ioulalum, who apparently still lives. ^_^ As a side note, I am going to not show my sig from now on in this thread, so as not to slow it down. Sorry if that makes you sad. You can see it in other places, like just above here, where I don't feel like editing it out.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 06:52 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels invisibility does not mask heat signitures. read the description for invisibility. it makes the caster invisible to sight. sight involves detecting the light waves that reflect off of whatever it's hitting. darkvision is sight, but in complete darkness. darkvision is not infravision. nothing that I'm aware of in D&D has infravision. the dragon dies. Certain snakes have a form of heat vision. Invisibility makes you invisible for those snakes. -> Invisibility masks heat.
aravilar_holistacia 05-10-04, 07:01 AM	I can't believe I actually have to come in here and dispel your notions that the Earth would possibly stand a chance. You know me; I don't usually get involved in threads like this because I'm the angel ( :angel: ) of the FR forums. But after reading just this page of posts, I'm infuriated. *cracks knuckles* Let's get started, shall we? For the record, I'll state again that I think that Faerūn would win in a minimun time of one day and a maximum time of three days. For the same reason as Anthor, I'm not turning my sig on in here.
Gemstone 05-10-04, 07:54 AM	You know, we will never get anywhere with this thread, since everybody have different thoughts about spells, creatures, weapon etc. Me for example, still believes that a Sniper Rifle would go right through a protection from normal missiles (no flames back plz ^_^) So this thread is going nowhere... Why not say like this... Draw ^_^
Damien_Hiro 05-10-04, 10:06 AM	Gemstone, the whole point of this thread was to see what everyone's opinion is about us vs. them. It is fun to debate the differents aspects of the two cultures. Also I was under the impression that dragons were warm blooded. Anyway, invisiblity does not protect you from blind senses. You still smell, make sounds and make footprints. Therefore, you would still give off heat from your body, unless you were undead, then you would appear the same temperature as the surrounding environment. Invisibilty is not etheral jaunt. You are still on the Material plane and you still follow its rules. I am sure that some things are different on Faerun but that is still the same.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 10:14 AM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro Gemstone, the whole point of this thread was to see what everyone's opinion is about us vs. them. It is fun to debate the differents aspects of the two cultures. Also I was under the impression that dragons were warm blooded. Anyway, invisiblity does not protect you from blind senses. You still smell, make sounds and make footprints. Therefore, you would still give off heat from your body, unless you were undead, then you would appear the same temperature as the surrounding environment. Invisibilty is not etheral jaunt. You are still on the Material plane and you still follow its rules. I am sure that some things are different on Faerun but that is still the same. Blindsense, scent and tremorsense are seperate abilities with different rules than normal sight which specifically allow them to ignore invisibility.. As it was often said, infravision doesn't exist in 3.X which means that thermal vision isn't different than normal vision. If a effect hides you from normal vision it also hides you from thermal vision.
Anthor Del Niera 05-10-04, 10:27 AM	I'm going to have to agree with Derren S. here. If you aren't counting infravision as a special kind of sight, then you can't say it autobypasses spells. Plus, when it was a kind of sight it didn't bypass invisibility.
Damien_Hiro 05-10-04, 10:43 AM	Infravision, or thermalvision, exists on our world. We can detect heat signatures with out weapon sights. Just because there are no thermal scopes on Faerun, it does not mean ours would not work, does it? Fundamentally, it comes down to how our technologyand our physics interact with Faerun's magic. If we can agree on how they interact, then we can actually get somewhere on this thread instead of magic and technology can do anything.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 10:45 AM	Thermal Vision also exist on Faerun (Snakes and possibly other animals) Thermal vision only isn't different from normal vision so there aren't any special rules for it.
Damien_Hiro 05-10-04, 10:56 AM	There is nowhere in any of the descriptions of the snakes, that say they have thermal vision. How do you know thermal vision exists when there is no supporting evidence? Maybe Faerun does not have any animals that evolved with thermal vision like here on Earth, maybe they evolved different.
Cunning Linguist 05-10-04, 11:05 AM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro There is nowhere in any of the descriptions of the snakes, that say they have thermal vision. How do you know thermal vision exists when there is no supporting evidence? Maybe Faerun does not have any animals that evolved with thermal vision like here on Earth, maybe they evolved different. In 2.ed Darkvision worked like Thermal vision, and it did not detect Invisibility.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 11:32 AM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro There is nowhere in any of the descriptions of the snakes, that say they have thermal vision. How do you know thermal vision exists when there is no supporting evidence? Maybe Faerun does not have any animals that evolved with thermal vision like here on Earth, maybe they evolved different. The anymals in the MM are the same animals as in the real world. Our snakes have thermal vision so do the FR snakes. And because they have no special thermo vision entry means that thermo vision isn't different than normal vision.
Damien_Hiro 05-10-04, 11:52 AM	If the vipers in the Monsterous Manual are the snakes you are talking about, then they have heat sensing pits, they cannot actually see heat, they sense it. I am talking about our thermal sights, which are different from darkvision. Darkvision lets you see in the night like infrared or our night vision goggles, which amplify ambient light, but tin black and white. Darkvision is more like infrared than thermal vision and theyare two different things. But there is nothing like our thermal vision in Faerun.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 11:55 AM	Heat sensing pits are actually better than what we have. And still they don't let you see a invisible creature so our thermogoggles also don't. If invisibility masks you from heat sensing creatures it also masks you from heat seeing creatures.
Cunning Linguist 05-10-04, 12:15 PM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro If the vipers in the Monsterous Manual are the snakes you are talking about, then they have heat sensing pits, they cannot actually see heat, they sense it. I am talking about our thermal sights, which are different from darkvision. Darkvision lets you see in the night like infrared or our night vision goggles, which amplify ambient light, but tin black and white. Darkvision is more like infrared than thermal vision and theyare two different things. But there is nothing like our thermal vision in Faerun. You know, we don't see anything either, we sense it. Thats why eyesight is called a sense. Darkvision in 3.ed is black and white sight in darkness. But it was not always that way. In 2.ed you got a thermal vision that let you see the body heat of a person, and thermal heat on walls and in the air. Like in the predetator movie, and this version could not pick up invisibility. The 2.ed version was based on High Tech military thermal vision, the kind that our people would use to detect people whom they did not see with there normal eyes. But 2.ed teaches us that invivibility works against this type of vision also.
mortellan 05-10-04, 12:26 PM	I don't have a need to argue invisibility. I say give it to them, it can be a liability just as much as an advantage in combat. Also invisibility (alone) doesn't protect you from land mines, laser trip beams or other rudimentary perimeter traps/foils like pits, soft ground like snow and sand or even smoke screens. Invisibility (alone) also can fool heat sources but not sonar. As soon as you add fly and silence to the mix for imbued mages, then their ability to work in unison drops and friendly fire can happen.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 12:29 PM	Flying is a very standart spell which should always be used in combat or infiltration even if it is only because of the speed advantage. Yes, sonar would pick them up as it emulates blindsense. But how often is sonar used outside of the water?
Cunning Linguist 05-10-04, 12:36 PM	laser trip beams Invis would trick this one thing, since the laser must be cut of for it to work, but since the creature is invis, it would go right past it.
mortellan 05-10-04, 12:39 PM	Flying is a very standart spell which should always be used in combat or infiltration even if it is only because of the speed advantage. Yes, sonar would pick them up as it emulates blindsense. But how often is sonar used outside of the water? I agree on the flying bit. Sonar's effectiveness would shoot out the roof after it became apparent 99.9% of Faerun's effective resistance was invisible. This is technology thats been around for decades, so no need for last minute R&D either. On a side note I'd like to mention most mage attacks would be very short, a bad thing for modern counter attacks. A 20th level caster using regular greater invisibility is safe for 20 rounds or 2 minutes. That means a more common 10th level wizard has a window of 1 minute to do his dirty work. And for expedience sake I'll say the mage turns invisible, teleports in, fights and teleports out. That's time for the 10th level mage to cast 8 spells and still get away unseen. A soldier using sonar would need to burn at least half these rounds in 'spot' rolls I'm thinking.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 12:42 PM	Sonar isn't ver exact, especially when not used in water. It could only give you a general direction and the device wouldn't be portable so that a single solder can benefit from it. Sonar can let you hit a sub, but not a diver.
mortellan 05-10-04, 12:44 PM	Invis would trick this one thing, since the laser must be cut of for it to work, but since the creature is invis, it would go right past it. I dunno, you could be right on second thought, but here is my thinking on it further. Invisibility doesn't stop light unless the source is within the 10' area it covers. So a horizontal laser beam in a hall for example wouldnt be covered if the hall was wider than 10' because the end points wouldnt be obscured. If the opening that is protected is narrow enough then yeah it could work. Obviously this wastes the tactic for outdoors use, but it could do fine indoors.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 12:46 PM	Do you mean invisible sphere? Normal invisibility has no 10 ft. radius.
mortellan 05-10-04, 12:51 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Sonar isn't ver exact, especially when not used in water. It could only give you a general direction and the device wouldn't be portable so that a single solder can benefit from it. Sonar can let you hit a sub, but not a diver. Dragons are bigger than divers ;) and sonar doesnt have to be portable or exact when you are dealing with invisible attackers. All you need is the direction then its up to high rates of fire and area effect damage. Standard D&D tactics.
mortellan 05-10-04, 12:54 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Do you mean invisible sphere? Normal invisibility has no 10 ft. radius. Ack. No I'm referring to the spell's description of the 'trailing rope' premise. Anything more than 10' from the subject of the invisibility is not covered. Thus a torch's light is covered if the torch itself is within the 10' radius.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 12:54 PM	Who said a dragon is attacking? Would sonar on air even pick up the halfling archmage? And firing into the direction will result in a 99% miss rate and the other 1% gets soaked up from PfA And there aren't many area weapons which can be used in midair.
mortellan 05-10-04, 01:02 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Who said a dragon is attacking? Would sonar on air even pick up the halfling archmage? And firing into the direction will result in a 99% miss rate and the other 1% gets soaked up from PfA And there aren't many area weapons which can be used in midair. Dragons have been named throughout this thread, so please. If they can cast invisibility they are in the discussion. Sonar's effectiveness depends on range, you'll have to be more specific. Then again no one cites ranges when we talk fireballs and lightning bolts so why should we start now? I won't argue the PfA again, this is about invisibility. And your figures have to be contrived even for D&D rules.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 01:07 PM	Originally posted by mortellan Dragons have been named throughout this thread, so please. If they can cast invisibility they are in the discussion. Sonar's effectiveness depends on range, you'll have to be more specific. Then again no one cites ranges when we talk fireballs and lightning bolts so why should we start now? I won't argue the PfA again, this is about invisibility. And your figures have to be contrived even for D&D rules. My figures are pure imagination. But think yourself even if Sonar could locate the position as accurate as 20 ft. that are 4x4x4 = 64 5ft. fields where he could be in and you have to make the 50% miss chance. Don't forget that Sonar is a underwater system and works a lot worse on air. The chance to hit would be 1:128 so only 1 from 128 soldiers would hit. Thats less than 1%. And that precision is very generous for air based sonar.
Damien_Hiro 05-10-04, 01:14 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. [/B} And there aren't many area weapons which can be used in midair. [/B] Artillery, mortars and grenade launchers are all capabe of midair explosions and these are common in the military. Sonar is used by bats in the air, right? Are they less effective at using sonar than dolphins?
mortellan 05-10-04, 01:15 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. My figures are pure imagination. But think yourself even if Sonar could locate the position as accurate as 20 ft. that are 4x4x4 = 64 5ft. fields where he could be in and you have to make the 50% miss chance. Don't forget that Sonar is a underwater system and works a lot worse on air. Much more logical. Despite the effectiveness. It is a usable modern tactic against invisibility. Also, I hope I cleared up the 10' radius thing. ja?
Derren S. 05-10-04, 01:16 PM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro Are they less effective at using sonar than dolphins? Yes. Thats why bats only have blindsense. Air is just to thin for sonar to be used effectivly. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=235979&highlight=blindsense
Damien_Hiro 05-10-04, 01:32 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Yes. Thats why bats only have blindsense. Air is just to thin for sonar to be used effectivly. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=235979&highlight=blindsense I asked that question becasue the obvious answer is No. Bats, in the air and flying, are just as good at using sonar as dolphins in the water. If a creature can use blind sense to detect an invisible creature, then why can we not see it with sonar? Invisibilty makes you transparent, correct? It does not make you into air. You still have mass and density and are still held to the same laws of physics that any object or person are held. You still take up space, make noise, smell and put off heat, unless I have missed somewhere inthe description of invisibilty that states that it covers up heat.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 01:39 PM	I never said that sonar doesn't work against invisibility. But the sonar we use is made to work under water not above where it works a lot worse. Even bats can't locate something very good and they are born with a natural sonar system which directly transfers its information to the brain. We only have bulky machines which would be made out of several huge radar discs which have to send the date to an operator who has to interpret them and to infor the units which are currently under attack by the invisible mage. Also a sonar precise enough to detect a halfling will detect any bird or animal too.
Damien_Hiro 05-10-04, 02:25 PM	If an invisible wizard was in a freezing cold room, would you be able to see his breath? I would assume so.
Derren S. 05-10-04, 02:27 PM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro If an invisible wizard was in a freezing cold room, would you be able to see his breath? I would assume so. No, why you should? It is invisible.
faridjo 05-10-04, 03:36 PM	Last night i had seen something interesting, it about how North Vietnam beat US Army and how there are interesting similarity between US vs. FR Scenario. First it is said, the North Vietnam Army has a good supply lines. For FR force, supplies like scroll and food can be easily distributed to the frontline using teleport. This means FR force can dig in into one place for a profuse amount of time. With magical protection to protect thing such as castle or better yet a Netherese flying city. This city can become massive engine of destruction. For example, bands of Mages slinging spell from atop of the city. After they exhausted their arsenal, goes recuperate and the supply of food is inexhaustible. Earth Army needs ammo, food and medical supplies from back home. They need to keep a good and flowing supplies line. It is said that 1 fighting army personnel need about 12 other to support it. With thing such as druid and Drow to harass the supply line, it becomes a nightmare to transport good to the frontline. Druid can cast control weather to make the worst storm ever that thing such as airplane and helicopter have a great time getting supplies going. Supplies by land are nightmare too because FR lack a good road to begin with, and if they even managed to use the present road, they effort will be disrupted by an invis guerilla fighter (Drow, and their annoying gang). One fireball and there goes your food for the army and hundred of soldier will be starving. One more interesting detail of Netherese Flying City, they all have a functioning Mythallar, that mean magic item such as wand can be made easily. Make this your forward base voila you have a place where you can churned out Wand of Invis and Fireball by the dozen. Equip every inhabitant with a Fireball wand and then aim it to nearest Earth base and blast it. Wand of Invis can be supplied to the guerilla forces and with a good protection to the city using Mythal. I don’t know other city wide protection except for Mythal, but I’m pretty sure that Mythal that can protect a city from fireball and other magical attack can surely protect a city from missile and bullet. Second, the Vietnamese fight the war unconventionally. This include trap, and tunnel. FR also excel in this warfare, Drow can create tunnel in the enemy territory. The entrance can be made invisible and magically guarded. Some part of the tunnel can be made sturdy enough with magic to prevent anti-tunnel bombing by the earth forces. The outlaying tunnels that branch from the sturdy part are collateral and can be destroyed. The safe part should contain a diviner that see for incoming bomber. Any sign for bomber, the signal will be given and the every single man/drow will retreat back to the safe part. This can be used as advantages, guerilla can be send from this tunnel to harass supplies, create confusion among the earth forces. Command Centre of Earth forces are especially vulnerable, since they can't see a invisible assailant casting a fireball at them. Drow also good in summoning a Balor in the middle of the Command Centre, and the Balor can have fun relieving an Earth General out of their limb. Without a proper command centre on the ground, ground troop can fall into disarray and better yet a caster can dominate a general and send his entire troop to trap. Intelligence can also be gathered this way, and this is a trivial thing to the FR because of divination but to gather small info this way can be a lot of help. I also include trap as reason why Vietnamese win the war, Traps are simple and great to weaken enemy’s forces. It FR case, Trap are bought to whole new level. Magical Trap can be erected quickly by a mages, imagine a group of soldier triggering a Wail of Banshee trap. Surviving member can watch their fellow soldier drop death by the second. Or how about stun trap followed by a summon monster trap used in tandem, do you like to see your comrade get impaled in the gut by a lowly monster, while you and your friend can do nothing than hope that the lowly monster chose your next friend instead of you. Or how about maze and imprisonment, how you act if you know FR forces have a way to send you imprisoned somewhere forever without any hope of death and freedom. Using this method and the tunnel in concert mean FR forces can inflict a devastating attack to Earth Forces. The third reason of why American lost the Vietnam War is because of the declining Morale of the American troop. Morale can be what that break and make a victory in a war. FR Forces have a lot of way to destroy Earth Forces Morale, for example one epic mage goes to sigil, find a portal to earth or better yet goes to his private pocket plane. Cast astral projection to earth, cast epic meteor shower over New York City. I don’t know if they have any spell like that but I think it can be researched. Make the Area of Effect to cover whole near city, and cast it. After that watch the firework happen, but that is not enough cast Greater Undead and summon a shadow. Order the shadow to kill everyone that don’t get fry by the meteor and turn them into undead. Make sure that every d**m landmark that the Earthling seen and proud of are blasted to dust. While your are at it why don’t bring along also few cleric and druid. These missions are supposed to be given to the evil epic lich and Talos cleric. The evil Talos Cleric can cast epic control weather that makes Lightning that can fry a car to dust when hit by it. But don’t stop here; cast a few volcanoes spell in the middle of city and at the middle of the bay. Tidal will destroy the seaside part of the city and while in the FR. Mages can create an projection of the insane destruction to the Earth Forces, I bet they will be delighted to see their loved one and friend get blasted to dust and some turned into a undead forever. A can also bet that 2/3 of the earth forces will pee in their pant the first 15 minute of the show. Repeat to other city on earth for as long as needed. The earth forces morale can be destroyed in matter of minute, and within days they will put down their weapon. Take their weapon and sell them as captive to Thay and Drow but don’t treat them higher than slave because they will find a way to revenge. The Fourth and the foremost reason of why the American lost the Vietnam War, it is the determination of the Vietnamese people. You can expect the same from the FR people. Earth forces will be seen a conqueror. Evil magical empire seen them as a threat, because of they come to offer technology that can be treat to their tyrannical rule and in American case to offer freedom to their endless amount of slaves. Evil will be the one to step first into the fray. The goody kingdoms have see first their intention, but once their see that Earth Forces wanted to conquer them and take away their natural resources. They will come later to join the Evil Empire. Druids have been counted in since they detest any technology and thing that come with it. Earth Forces will be interest in one thing, how much you can exploit from the FR. Oil Drilling operation and dumping of toxic waste in FR. Nuke can be brought in but to anger Chauntea and Silvanus whose power dwarf the power of nuke. No matter what this board say about god cannot have a hand in the conflict, they will interfere and AO cannot really do a thing about thing. God has a right to help their worshipper, and AO won’t do anything to prevent that. Earth Forces want to enslave the whole torill. God must help their worshipper if it comes to this. Mystra must help because of Earth Forces doesn’t have any interest in magic and they rely heavily in technology. Mystra cannot let the magic art be forgotten when the whole faerun is enslaved. Chauntea and nature god cannot let the earthling exploit the faerun. The whole pantheon of god are generally will hate the earth forces because their generally don’t have any god and they worship different god. Added by the determination to kick out the invader by the people and god’s it not surprising if FR won. Lastly, Vietnamese have won the war against American. All the reason for Vietnamese victory, FR has fulfilled. There is not reason why FR shouldn’t win in this war. Thank you for listening to my pointless ranting, and while I may sound like a psycho I’m not one. I just like to write with passion and don’t flame me because I don’t like to burn. :mage:
Derren S. 05-10-04, 04:54 PM	Imo blasting the national symbols into pieces and destroying cities is the wrong way to do it. That will only anger them. Now animating the corpses of fallen earth soldiers and sending them as spearhead against their homebase that is demoralizing
Lokiyn 05-10-04, 07:03 PM	by the way i must have missed something why can't earth use nukes? why would we build power plants? What spell prevents point blank vaproization from a nuklear blast. Also please note that wizards and sorcs need rest to recharge spells while soldiers can keep going in shifts and reloads. Nerve gases will take out invis targets we can protect with suits that yes i know are fragile however a 10ft zone of clear air in a cloud of invisible ( which raises the question of how the wizard see's this) poison gasses is going to tip people off. oh as as far as i know all earth aircraft can fly higher than wizards and dragons and much much faster. lowflying jets at mach 4 are going to create many painful sonic booms for faeruns and you are going to need a quickened spell just to try to react to s omething moving that fast. B52 bombing runs from 2 miles up. lots of fun stuff. don't assume magic is the end all be all advantage
Kuje31 05-10-04, 07:21 PM	Originally posted by Lokiyn by the way i must have missed something why can't earth use nukes? why would we build power plants? What spell prevents point blank vaproization from a nuklear blast. Because the poster of this thread said no nukes unless the Earth itself was threatened........
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-10-04, 07:26 PM	I find it funny that all these mages and all these priests and all these druids can come up with all these epic spells and we can't even come up with anything. or develop any kind of stratagy or defense against these individuals. or use tactics or technology that -would- be necessary in order to combat these foes. these soliders all they seem to do is run into these mage's attacks like a rat into a trap. That would never happen, but that seems to be the concensus with some of the pro-faerunians. I would respond to some of hte posts that addressed by last comments earlier, but that was apparently some time ago. well, except for these of note. many dragon species are -very- warm blooded. only the species that are specifically cold-types of dragons, such as white dragons are not warm blooded. (or even cold blooded. they radiate coldness.) all that information can be found in the draconomicon, which I own. which means that heat seeking weapons would have a dragon to lock onto for -most- dragon species. second, there's nothing in the snake descriptions in the monster manuel that states that they have any kind of vision other than normal sight. this is true only for faerunian snakes, but that would be irrelevant. the ability to detect heat is technically a form of sight, since sight is defined as being able to detect the reflecting light that bounces off of everything that we can see. Not heat. heat is a form of energy that people generate. Heat vision would actually be closer to what blindsight or scent is. in the description of invisibility, it also says that light can never become invisible, though the source of it might. which means that a caster disappears (the source of heat) but the heat does not. about the supply lines: yes, this would be faerun's primary advantage against earth, but that isn't something we couldn't handle. Most soldiers are capable of surviving on their own should htey have to. The faerunian soldiers and mages can only make so much food for themselves before their total defensive and offensive power is reduced enough to be an effect. just like the cure disease/plague scenario, every magically created food ration/mord's mansion is one less spell that the mage can defend him/herself with or attack with and they'd need every spell they can get. Lastly, demoralizing can come from both sides. the faerunians are fighting a -massive- group of foes with weapons, tactics, and equipment they've never seen before. -and- anyone but mid-high level mages and priests would be just as demoralized as the terrans would at the sight of angels, elementals, and the other things that are helping them. Magic isn't common on faerun and the bulk of its population has likely not interacted with it enough to simply think nothing of it. and yes, the spellcasters are not immune to being sniped, bombed, captured, assassinated, sufficated, or otherwise killed whether by terran forces or hired faerunian forces.
aravilar_holistacia 05-10-04, 10:19 PM	Originally posted by Lokiyn What spell prevents point blank vaproization from a nuklear blast. Starmantle blocks all non-magical attacks. A nuke is not magical. Nothing that the Terran soldiers/commanders would have is magical. many dragon species are -very- warm blooded. only the species that are specifically cold-types of dragons, such as white dragons are not warm blooded. (or even cold blooded. they radiate coldness.) all that information can be found in the draconomicon, which I own. which means that heat seeking weapons would have a dragon to lock onto for -most- dragon species. Dragons are reptiles. Last I checked, reptiles are cold-blooded. in the description of invisibility, it also says that light can never become invisible, though the source of it might. which means that a caster disappears (the source of heat) but the heat does not. Heat and light are two different wavelengths of radiation. Heat radiation is infrared radiation; it is on the redscale side of the visible light spectrum. Ultraviolet radiation is on the (you guessed it) bluescale side of the visible light spectrum. -- I don't want to make it unfair for all of you, but let us finally turn to Elven High Magic. You must understand that a circle of twelve or so High Mages and their resulting outer circles of forty-eight or so mages could level most of the terrestrial armies within a day or so. If you'd like, I'll begin to quote my sources. ;)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-10-04, 11:00 PM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia Starmantle blocks all non-magical attacks. A nuke is not magical. Nothing that the Terran soldiers/commanders would have is magical. starmantle only lasts so long and the effects of nuclear attack lasts for years. oh yes, and -how- common is starmantle? furthermore, starmantle renders the bearer immune to nonmagical -weapon- attacks. It does not protect against ultrahigh temperatures produced by a weapon of a nuke's magnitude, nor does it protect against the radiation produced by such a weapon. Bullets? yes grenades, bombs, or ... well... fire? no. even a high level mage couldn't make that spell last longer than a battle against the terrans before it gives out, short of persistant spell. Dragons are reptiles. Last I checked, reptiles are cold-blooded. dragons are not reptiles. dragons are dragons. the temperature of their blood varies with species, but many are warm blooded. Heat and light are two different wavelengths of radiation. Heat radiation is infrared radiation; it is on the redscale side of the visible light spectrum. Ultraviolet radiation is on the (you guessed it) bluescale side of the visible light spectrum. I'm quite well aware of that. I happen to be well over 6 years old. Invisibility does not make the light that the caster -generates- disappear. I don't want to make it unfair for all of you, but let us finally turn to Elven High Magic. You must understand that a circle of twelve or so High Mages and their resulting outer circles of forty-eight or so mages could level most of the terrestrial armies within a day or so. If you'd like, I'll begin to quote my sources. ;) Nukes have completely vaporized islands the size of evermeet in the past. a thermonuclear missile (as opposed to atom bombs) can easily take out the last elven refuge just as quickly as they could use elven high magic to do the same to an equivelent area. Fast acting genetically engineered diseases work just as well, if slower.
Kuje31 05-10-04, 11:09 PM	Can we drop the NUKE discussion please. NO NUKES will be used unless the planet Earth itself is threatened.
aravilar_holistacia 05-10-04, 11:23 PM	I told you I wouldn't hold back. ;) Uauli'Selui'Keryth/ The Sundering, At War with the Weave: Used only during situations most dire, twelve High Mages can harness the energy of the Weave to cause it to fluctuate across a great distance. In lesser ritual forms, the uaul ritual disrupts all magic for miles around and causes great turmoil in weather and animal life; thunderstorms, earthquakes, dead magic, animal stampedes, and tornadoes are common. In its ultimate form, the Weave is temporarily torn asunder, and the damage is made manifest in major cataclysms and storms, tidal waves, and permanent changes to the lands of any planet. That spell ritual requires a Great Circle of four High Mages and between two and four Secondary Circles of twelve or so regular mages. Like Anthor told me, "I'd give that one at least a seventy percent chance of destroying all life on earth. The other thirty percent is simply the chance that a few hundred people would survive." Any questions? If any four High Mages used plane shift to get to Earth, along with their apprentices and comrades (possibly using the Ghaatiil/The Traveling Path complementary High Magic ritual) they'd be able to destroy the whole planet in less than a day. :angel:
Anthor Del Niera 05-10-04, 11:25 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels starmantle only lasts so long and the effects of nuclear attack lasts for years. oh yes, and -how- common is starmantle? furthermore, starmantle renders the bearer immune to nonmagical -weapon- attacks. It does not protect against ultrahigh temperatures produced by a weapon of a nuke's magnitude, nor does it protect against the radiation produced by such a weapon. Bullets? yes grenades, bombs, or ... well... fire? no. even a high level mage couldn't make that spell last longer than a battle against the terrans before it gives out, short of persistant spell. Right. Well, starmantle is a sixth level spell, so it's really quite common. Just as common as giving someone like, say, the starmantle mage, immunity to poison and fire. You were saying? dragons are not reptiles. dragons are dragons. the temperature of their blood varies with species, but many are warm blooded. Again, as you refuse to specify rules for your side, I will take what is most convienient from each edition. In older editions, dragons were coldblooded beings. I'm quite well aware of that. I happen to be well over 6 years old. Invisibility does not make the light that the caster -generates- disappear. As you are over six years old, and assumably literate, you will be able to understand the older edition thing. In 2e, many types of creatures were granted infravision. You know, heat vision. I knew you did. Invisibility worked perfectly fine against such things. Nukes have completely vaporized islands the size of evermeet in the past. a thermonuclear missile (as opposed to atom bombs) can easily take out the last elven refuge just as quickly as they could use elven high magic to do the same to an equivelent area. Fast acting genetically engineered diseases work just as well, if slower. Man, what an awesome plan! Let's conquer something that we turn into a nuclear fallout! Good call, friend. You seem to be missing the ENTIRE point of conquering something. Faerun, as it is on the defensive, will have no qualms about using Earth-destroying nuke spells. Earth hasn't the same luxury. When you conquer something, it is because you want it. Turning it into a useless wasteland isn't conquering, it's being a spiteful child. J
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-10-04, 11:29 PM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia That spell ritual requires a Great Circle of four High Mages and between two and four Secondary Circles of twelve or so regular mages. Like Anthor told me, "I'd give that one at least a seventy percent chance of destroying all life on earth. The other thirty percent is simply the chance that a few hundred people would survive." Any questions? If any four High Mages used plane shift to get to Earth, along with their apprentices and comrades (possibly using the Ghaatiil/The Traveling Path complementary High Magic ritual) they'd be able to destroy the whole planet in less than a day. :angel: I believe that it was mentioned that the weave does not extend to earth. Magic works there, but it's rather difficult to get off a spell dependant upon the weave to work in an area where the weave does not exist. even if, by whatever chance, that it works anyway, it has all the implications that launching a large number of our nukes to faerun and essentailly doing the same thing. Everyone looses.
aravilar_holistacia 05-10-04, 11:31 PM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Faerun, as it is on the defensive, will have no qualms about using Earth-destroying nuke spells. See my post above, Faerūnians. ;)
aravilar_holistacia 05-10-04, 11:35 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels I believe that it was mentioned that the weave does not extend to earth. Magic works there, but it's rather difficult to get off a spell dependant upon the weave to work in an area where the weave does not exist. even if, by whatever chance, that it works anyway, it has all the implications that launching a large number of our nukes to faerun and essentailly doing the same thing. Everyone looses. Then they can use any one of a million epic spells to create a bond between the Earth's small magic weave and the Faerūnian Weave. Thus, the two weaves are made one. And they destroy the Earth. And nukes have been banned from this thread. ;)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-10-04, 11:38 PM	starmantle is not, in any way, shape, or form, a common spell. a few mages might have it, but that's a far cry from using it as standard defense. dragons are not cold blooded. I did cite my source. that information is in the draconomicon, which is 3rd edition. most of the rules pre-3rd are no longer appropriate. infravision no longer exists, as it was replaced by darkvision, which is no more than the ability to see in complete darkness. similar to night vision technology, but without light entirely. 2e invisibility might have been able to mask that, but it doens't now. Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Man, what an awesome plan! Let's conquer something that we turn into a nuclear fallout! Good call, friend. You seem to be missing the ENTIRE point of conquering something. Faerun, as it is on the defensive, will have no qualms about using Earth-destroying nuke spells. Earth hasn't the same luxury. When you conquer something, it is because you want it. Turning it into a useless wasteland isn't conquering, it's being a spiteful child. J I never said we'd nuke the whole planet, just evermeet. perhaps a few other stratigic locations, but that'd hardly cause a dent anywhere but the target and the surrounding area. there is a such thing as acceptable losses. remember, nukes have been going off on earth for a while during the testing phases and the earth got through it just fine. it just means that there'd be fewer high level-epic mages around.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-10-04, 11:41 PM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia Then they can use any one of a million epic spells to create a bond between the Earth's small magic weave and the Faerūnian Weave. Thus, the two weaves are made one. And they destroy the Earth. And nukes have been banned from this thread. ;) and planet killing epic spells arent? I don't care either way. with a threat to earth like that in existance, we'd use everything in our power to stop them before they'd even try. either way, that spell'd have to be developed. which takes time and effort, especially one as massive as bonding two weaves for the purpose of destroying an entire planet. since hte weaves would become bonded, I'm sure mystra would have something to say about that. furthermore, what would the elves care if the human nations are taken? since when are the most powerful players on Faerun suddenly collaborating? since we are making it "fair" then earth can develop all those defenses against magic that I was talking about earlier if Faerun can have their spellcasters develop their anti-terran magic.
Kuje31 05-10-04, 11:44 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels I never said we'd nuke the whole planet, just evermeet. perhaps a few other stratigic locations, but that'd hardly cause a dent anywhere but the target and the surrounding area. there is a such thing as acceptable losses. remember, nukes have been going off on earth for a while during the testing phases and the earth got through it just fine. it just means that there'd be fewer high level-epic mages around. [/B] Good luck finding Evermeet and dropping a nuke on. It won't happen if you come as a invader, because if you are NOT a surface elf you will NOT get close to Evermeet. Hells even Umberlee, as a deity, can not get through the wards that surround Evermeet.
AvengedMutablegenus 05-10-04, 11:45 PM	me and my local gaming group recently discussed this topic, we decided Faerun would win, because anything the US would do like launch a nuke, would ring like a silver bell in the epic level characters foresight abilities.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-10-04, 11:46 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Good luck finding Evermeet and dropping a nuke on. It won't be happening because if you are NOT a surface elf you will NOT get close to Evermeet. Hells even Umberlee as a deity can not get through the wards that surround Evermeet. I never said any nuke was dropped. I said "missile."
Anthor Del Niera 05-10-04, 11:46 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels starmantle is not, in any way, shape, or form, a common spell. a few mages might have it, but that's a far cry from using it as standard defense. Common enough. Alright, fine. Couple my previous spells with simply going incorporeal if it gets you home. Even easier, and has a close enough effect. IE, nobody of modern times could possibly harm you. Sweet. dragons are not cold blooded. I did cite my source. that information is in the draconomicon, which is 3rd edition. Again, you refuse to set down rules for yourself. DO SO, or this debate means nothing. As long as you insist we follow a certain set of rules, you must follow a set as well. most of the rules pre-3rd are no longer appropriate. infravision no longer exists, as it was replaced by darkvision, which is no more than the ability to see in complete darkness. similar to night vision technology, but without light entirely. 2e invisibility might have been able to mask that, but it doens't now. See above, and let me know. You've got to have a system or this is just stupid. I never said we'd nuke the whole planet, just evermeet. perhaps a few other stratigic locations, but that'd hardly cause a dent anywhere but the target and the surrounding area. there is a such thing as acceptable losses. remember, nukes have been going off on earth for a while during the testing phases and the earth got through it just fine. it just means that there'd be fewer high level-epic mages around. Nuking a few strategic places on Faerun would cause fallout. Do a little research. If you are so insistent that there is no counter for nuclear weapons (And there is, believe me. Like teleporting them back to Earth. Heh, heh, heh...) then you have to consider the fact that they will do more damage than you want. Actually, FR's mages would just teleport them back to Faerun anyway, so nukes are a stupid idea. You hurt yourself. J
Kuje31 05-10-04, 11:51 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels I never said any nuke was dropped. I said "missile." Again good luck. If a god can't get through thier wards a missile would differently not. It would just be randomly teleported away. Again we can STOP WITH THE NUKES. There are none unless Earth itself is targeted. Hells Earth would have to even FIND Evermeet first and even after hundreds of years only a handful of people on the mainland even know where Evermeet is located!
aravilar_holistacia 05-10-04, 11:51 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels either way, that spell'd have to be developed. which takes time and effort, especially one as massive as bonding two weaves for the purpose of destroying an entire planet. Mythal Invention (Ex): Whenever the elven high mage attains this class feature (at 2nd, 4th, 7th, and 9th levels) he may develop a single epic spell for 75% of the normal development cost in gold, time, and experience points. The elven high mage doesn't have to develop an epic spell right away, but if he attains this class feature again before he develops an epic spell, the previous benefit is lost. Faster development, number one. Number two, there will be more than one mage with this Ex. So, the spell will be made pretty quickly. ;)
Lokiyn 05-10-04, 11:59 PM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Nuking a few strategic places on Faerun would cause fallout. Do a little research. If you are so insistent that there is no counter for nuclear weapons (And there is, believe me. Like teleporting them back to Earth. Heh, heh, heh...) then you have to consider the fact that they will do more damage than you want. Actually, FR's mages would just teleport them back to Faerun anyway, so nukes are a stupid idea. You hurt yourself. J Two things 1.) modern nukes don't cause very much fall out unless we want them to and i mean extreamly little since most bombs are fusion based with a very very small fission reaction to start it off 2.) if a mage can intercept an icbm moving faster than sound and exploding 5000 ft above the earth then earth truely is screwed and is thus justified in utilizing every single trick in the book to make sure that Faerunians never ever make it to earth. I'm talking all those wonderful wharehouses of nerve gas and disease that we keep meaning to get rid of inserted into the upper atmosphere toxic wastes dumped into major water supplies everything afterall when its a matter of them or us i'm sure you all know who is going to choose what. ... + it's not our planet anyway after 100 years or so we can slip back and mop up the badly mutated survivors by which time a couple of turncoats will likely have taught us some magic so here we go again. if push comes to shove and either side feals that the other side is to much of a threat i'm going to have to go with earth in terms of shear distructive power. p.s. even though nuke may be considered non magical does the starmantle protect and against rooiling clouds of plasma and shockwaves capable of leveling mountains?
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 12:01 AM	Originally posted by Lokiyn p.s. even though nuke may be considered non magical does the starmantle protect and against rooiling clouds of plasma and shockwaves capable of leveling mountains? Starmantle? The non-ritual spell? Nope. A Mythal? Yep. ;)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:12 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels starmantle is not, in any way, shape, or form, a common spell. a few mages might have it, but that's a far cry from using it as standard defense. ---- Common enough. Alright, fine. Couple my previous spells with simply going incorporeal if it gets you home. Even easier, and has a close enough effect. IE, nobody of modern times could possibly harm you. Sweet. and how common is that spell? ...another noncore and even non FR core spell that lasts minutes/level. I sure hope he can get the spell off before getting shot. most of the rules pre-3rd are no longer appropriate. infravision no longer exists, as it was replaced by darkvision, which is no more than the ability to see in complete darkness. similar to night vision technology, but without light entirely. 2e invisibility might have been able to mask that, but it doens't now. --- See above, and let me know. You've got to have a system or this is just stupid. I use whatever rules are applicable. when I need D&D rules, I use the most updated rules available, which are always the correct and applicable rules. However, not every situation can be differred to them, so I don't. I never said we'd nuke the whole planet, just evermeet. perhaps a few other stratigic locations, but that'd hardly cause a dent anywhere but the target and the surrounding area. there is a such thing as acceptable losses. remember, nukes have been going off on earth for a while during the testing phases and the earth got through it just fine. it just means that there'd be fewer high level-epic mages around. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera [B]Nuking a few strategic places on Faerun would cause fallout. I'm well aware of that. a few bombs won't have worldwide implications unless thousands were launched. or several gigaton nukes were launched. Do a little research.that's very unnecessary.If you are so insistent that there is no counter for nuclear weapons (And there is, believe me. Like teleporting them back to Earth. Heh, heh, heh...) then you have to consider the fact that they will do more damage than you want. you seem to be rather insistant that magic is the be-all end-all force in the war. it's Faerun's backbone and only real defense against us, yes, but it won't necessarily make Faerun successful in defending against us. EDIT: or at least completely successful. Actually, FR's mages would just teleport them back to Faerun anyway, so nukes are a stupid idea. You hurt yourself. ....right. mages just walk into bases/ planes, missile launchers, missiles in flight? What's the off-chance of arrival on teleport? since when did mages know the exact location, what the location looks like, what the nukes look like, and since when are they able to determine where the warhead is and how are they able to use teleport, which is dependant on sizes, to teleport it anywhere? back to earth? where on earth would they find a familiar enough locale? it isn't happening. it's funny how all these mages know exactly what to hit, where to hit it, where to put it, and exactly what spells to develop to counter it, and, going "by the rules" we can't develop anything to defend ourselves at all. and yet, if we could, -none- of this would -ever- happen.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 12:13 AM	I don't recall who was talking about morale, but... Evaliir'Enevahr/The Song of Enevahr: This spell allows a High Mage to inspire allied troops and demoralize opposing armies. The only battle-intended High Magic, this ritual places the singing High Mage among the troops to sing of elven glory and the folly of the foes who oppose them. This wide-ranging enchantment/charm-style magic affects all sentient beings within a 100-yard radius of the High Mage. All elves and allies gain bravery and morale boosts from the song, making them immune to fear effects of any kind and eliminating Morale checks. The opponents, regardless of any understanding of elvish, are infused with fear and terror, and any actions that force Morale checks (or allow individual checks against fear) panic them, causing them to flee in terror from the source for at least one hour. ^_^
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 12:16 AM	....right. mages just walk into bases/ planes, missile launchers, missiles in flight? What's the off-chance of arrival on teleport? since when did mages know the exact location, what the location looks like, what the nukes look like, and since when are they able to determine where the warhead is and how are they able to use teleport, which is dependant on sizes, to teleport it anywhere? back to earth? where on earth would they find a familiar enough locale? it isn't happening. Scrying. And the epic spell seeds "Foresee" and "Reveal". :D Teleportation? Epic spell seed "Teleport". ;) For every 50 lbs. over the original 1000 lb. seed limit, you add +2 DC. So add a few more casters. That's a nice mitigating factor.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:18 AM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia Scrying. And the epic spell seeds "Foresee" and "Reveal". :D are all blocked by a thin layer of lead.
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 12:18 AM	Well, keep in mind that those mages are usually at the very least Da Vinci intelligent, oftentimes more so. Have you considered that at all? Also... ah, divination. Such a wonderful school of magic for things like that. Becoming incorporeal isn't a noncore spell! Also, have you read about the gate spell? It's nice. Edit: No they aren't blocked by a thin layer of lead. That's absurd. Reveal is, but Foresee isn't in the least.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 12:21 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels are all blocked by a thin layer of lead. Okay. Explain to me since when nukes/missiles are covered in lead. ;)
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 12:24 AM	Also, wall of force blocks explosions. Keep that in mind.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:26 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Well, keep in mind that those mages are usually at the very least Da Vinci intelligent, oftentimes more so. Have you considered that at all? Also... ah, divination. Such a wonderful school of magic for things like that. do you know how intelligent Da Vinci is? we have geniuses too and they're more common on our planet than on Faerun, due to the bulk of our population. Becoming incorporeal isn't a noncore spell! Sorry, I thought you were referring to Ghostform. Ethereal Jaunt lasts 1 round/level. You become ethereal and cannot interact with the material plane. Etherealness lasts 1 minute/level and more people can join the caster. Still can't interact with the material plane. both work fine on Faerun, but earth may or may not even have an ethereal plane. Also, have you read about the gate spell? It's nice. it's also 9th level. Edit: No they aren't blocked by a thin layer of lead. That's absurd. lead blocks many or even most divinations and is hardly absurd.
Kuje31 05-11-04, 12:28 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels ....right. mages just walk into bases/ planes, missile launchers, missiles in flight? What's the off-chance of arrival on teleport? since when did mages know the exact location, what the location looks like, what the nukes look like, and since when are they able to determine where the warhead is and how are they able to use teleport, which is dependant on sizes, to teleport it anywhere? back to earth? where on earth would they find a familiar enough locale? it isn't happening. it's funny how all these mages know exactly what to hit, where to hit it, where to put it, and exactly what spells to develop to counter it, and, going "by the rules" we can't develop anything to defend ourselves at all. and yet, if we could, -none- of this would -ever- happen. [/B] Funny though that Earth forces can do this. Evermeet, right that's over there, even though it's been hidden for decades and centuries. Mage's towers, those are there, and there, and there. Sorry Earth isn't as capable of doing this and Faerun is more so since they have divination.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:29 AM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia Okay. Explain to me since when nukes/missiles are covered in lead. ;) since earth found out that lead can block divinations best thing since earth is being somehow blocked from learning anything about magic and yet Faerun knows so much about us. Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Also, wall of force blocks explosions. Keep that in mind. and these mages know the trajectory precisely enough to place the wall, which lasts 1 round/level, -and- the nukes are able to explode around the wall and the city (and much of hte surrounding area) would still suffer from fallout.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 12:31 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Also, wall of force blocks explosions. Keep that in mind. "The wall...is immune to damage of all kinds [...]." p. 299 PHB :D lead blocks many or even most divinations and is hardly absurd. Seed: Reveal [...] "[...] Lead sheeting...blocks the spell [...]" Seed: Foresee [...] Foresee doesn't say anything like that. ;)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:33 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Funny though that Earth forces can do this. Evermeet, right that's over there, even though it's been hidden for decades and centuries. Mage's towers, those are there, and there, and there. Sorry Earth isn't as capable of doing this and Faerun is more so since they have divination. sounds isolationist. and these people care to wipe out an entire planet because.... why? if evermeet is so hidden, then why would they care, especially on a moral level, to wipe us out at all? furthermore, why would mystra allow it? even if faerun were conquered, what would the elves in evermeet care if they're so well hidden? either which way, I don't see much of anything coming from them that could either be easily countered or otherwise left alone. furthermore, it's location can be easily seen from high above the planet. cameras are small and can fly miles above the surface, or even in orbit.
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 12:33 AM	Quite alright about the Ghostform thing. It's an option, but there are better ones. Yes, I know quite well how intelligent Da Vinci was. He matches up to most mages in the FR. Consider the fact that there is a second level spell that boosts one's IQ by forty. As I stated, lead does not block foresee. And as a side note, entire bases and their outsides aren't covered in lead. Keep that in mind. As to the person that mentioned it being difficult to teleport stuff like that; I think you are right. Unless there's a teleport field, of course. But barring that, there are a number of mages that can cast Forcecage, forcing the nuke into a harmless bubble. Heh. Then teleport the whole thing to Earth and dispel the cage.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 12:35 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels since earth found out that lead can block divinations best thing since earth is being somehow blocked from learning anything about magic and yet Faerun knows so much about us. and these mages know the trajectory precisely enough to place the wall, which lasts 1 round/level, -and- the nukes are able to explode around the wall and the city (and much of hte surrounding area) would still suffer from fallout. One word. Mythal.
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 12:38 AM	Nuke in a bubble?
Kuje31 05-11-04, 12:42 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels sounds isolationist. and these people care to wipe out an entire planet because.... why? if evermeet is so hidden, then why would they care, especially on a moral level, to wipe us out at all? furthermore, why would mystra allow it? even if faerun were conquered, what would the elves in evermeet care if they're so well hidden? either which way, I don't see much of anything coming from them that could either be easily countered or otherwise left alone. furthermore, it's location can be easily seen from high above the planet. cameras are small and can fly miles above the surface, or even in orbit. Furthermore it can't be seen from the air other wise dragons and Spelljamming ships would have found it before now. Evermeet would become involved because elves are involved. Elves are still a part of Faerun yes? High Magic isn't enough to come from them? Please. Evermeet came to Evereska's aid and they would come to Waterdeep's aid as well since many of the People know who Khelben, the Lords, and many others who live in Waterdeep, are.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:42 AM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia "The wall...is immune to damage of all kinds [...]." p. 299 PHB :D too bad the people well below the wall aren't. Seed: Foresee [...] Foresee doesn't say anything like that. ;) -another spell that'd have to be developed.... -90% likely to get anything meaningful... -allows the caster to read 30 minutes into future for a future event. every further 30 minutes increases the DC x2 -10 specific questions to unknown powers of the planes that have "yes" "no" "maybe" "never" "irrelevant" answers with a 90% likelyhood to be true -seemingly, the best options is to gain one -basic- piece of information about a living target or object's magical abilities, if any, with an additional piece for DC+2. whoop dee do. what kind of DC would this have to do something useful? or specific? would the mage even know what to look for? what questions to ask? not only would someone have to develop this spell, but would have to develop it especially for use against the terrans. as far as I know, development of that kind is not allowed for terrans, so that kind of development is now allowed for htem, either. otherwise, we can talk about terran antimagic, dead magic zone generaters, and antimage soldiers.
Kuje31 05-11-04, 12:44 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels not only would someone have to develop this spell, but would have to develop it especially for use against the terrans. as far as I know, development of that kind is not allowed for terrans, so that kind of development is now allowed for htem, either. otherwise, we can talk about terran antimagic, dead magic zone generaters, and antimage soldiers. [/B] No they can't because again, Earth is only using tech that exists right now on Earth.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:45 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Yes, I know quite well how intelligent Da Vinci was. He matches up to most mages in the FR. Consider the fact that there is a second level spell that boosts one's IQ by forty. epic spells can do a 40 point increase. the second level spells do 4 point increases. As to the person that mentioned it being difficult to teleport stuff like that; I think you are right. Unless there's a teleport field, of course. But barring that, there are a number of mages that can cast Forcecage, forcing the nuke into a harmless bubble. good luck catching the missile going faster than sound.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 12:46 AM	too bad the people well below the wall aren't. The damage can't get past the Wall. *cough* Mythal *cough*. ;)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:46 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 No they can't because again, Earth is only using tech that exists right now on Earth. then faerun can't develop terran-busting spells or epic spells in the same manner.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 12:47 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels good luck catching the missile going faster than sound. Time Stop. ;)
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 12:48 AM	No, champ, a forty point increase to IQ is equal to 4 points of Int. You don't think all those characters you've got have a 12 IQ, do you? Consider that Faerun MAY ALREADY HAVE THOSE SPELLS. Foresee is really useful. There are people that can make mythals. Faerun isn't increasing anything. You're starting to make facts up, and it's getting annoying. Time stop, and forcecage catches it automatically.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:49 AM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia The damage can't get past the Wall. *cough* Mythal *cough*. ;) radiation and fallout do the work just fine. ever heard of neutron bombs? their like nukes, but their blast is weak and all they really do is unload greater amounts of radiation and fallout. furthermore, how are these mages knowing the tragectory of this missile (or missiles) well enough to place a wall in its path? even if it, or hte mythal, are there, what's stopping the missile's fallout and radiation from killing everyone through cancer and radiation damage?
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:51 AM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia Time Stop. ;) lasts 12 to 30 seconds. spells that have to target the object do not work in time stop, and time stop is a 9th level spell.
Kuje31 05-11-04, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels then faerun can't develop terran-busting spells or epic spells in the same manner. Except those spells already exist in Faerun and those items DO NOT exist on Earth at this time.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera No, champ, a forty point increase to IQ is equal to 4 points of Int. You don't think all those characters you've got have a 12 IQ, do you? someone's INT score does not directly relate to IQ. and do not call me "champ." Consider that Faerun MAY ALREADY HAVE THOSE SPELLS. Foresee is really useful. There are people that can make mythals. Faerun isn't increasing anything. You're starting to make facts up, and it's getting annoying. Time stop, and forcecage catches it automatically. it's really, really annoying that you think these spells already exist and can counter earth's every move, despite the fact that these moves would never come up otherwise. second, I'm _not_ making anything up. You and a few others are just overstating what magic can do and _vastly_ understating Earth's capabilities. You, among a few others, seem to want to think that everyone on earth was hit wit a massive feeblemind spell.
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 12:56 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels radiation and fallout do the work just fine. ever heard of neutron bombs? their like nukes, but their blast is weak and all they really do is unload greater amounts of radiation and fallout. furthermore, how are these mages knowing the tragectory of this missile (or missiles) well enough to place a wall in its path? even if it, or hte mythal, are there, what's stopping the missile's fallout and radiation from killing everyone through cancer and radiation damage? Again, what's stopping it the FACT THAT IT WOULD TURN THE WHOLE DAMN PLACE INTO A FALLOUT REGION, THUS RUINING THE REASON FOR CONQUERING! What you're doing in the childish spite thing once more.
Kuje31 05-11-04, 12:57 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels radiation and fallout do the work just fine. ever heard of neutron bombs? their like nukes, but their blast is weak and all they really do is unload greater amounts of radiation and fallout. furthermore, how are these mages knowing the tragectory of this missile (or missiles) well enough to place a wall in its path? even if it, or hte mythal, are there, what's stopping the missile's fallout and radiation from killing everyone through cancer and radiation damage? Um well let's see nature priests remove the radiation damage. Divine casters heal the cancer. Next please. Again Earth came to conquor not destroy. STOP WITH THE NUKES AND THE FALL OUT AND THE NEUTRON BOMBS, etc.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 12:57 AM	I was waiting for you to start arguing with me about the Mythal. You've done it now. ;) :schemes: Major Mythal Powers Given the five central casters (one primary, four secondaries), five major powers are imbued within the mythal that operate at all times. The details of these powers follow, with the parameters of each set of abilities. The Defense of the People The primary goal of the mythal was to protect the elves and their way of life while also allowing the N'Tel'Quess among them. This major mythal power, crafted by Mythanthor, places an invisible overmantle upon every elf who walks within the mythal, regardless of additional protections or magical deterrents. Unlike the usual clashing of magics when two mantles come into contact, this nonintrusive magical defense always takes precedence over other magical protections; only if its defenses are breached or bypassed are an elfķs other defenses brought to bear against an attack. The powers of the overmantle are as follows: Flight: Speed 15, Maneuverability Class C (any additional flight-related magics such as the fly spell operate at normal speed +6 or one higher maneuverability class); Shield and protection from normal missiles: The shield spell persists even after the elf leaves the area of the mythal, lasting one hour per day the elf lived under the mythal; Immunity to contact, gaseous, or ingested poisons (though, curiously, not to injected poisons such as snakebites or poisons delivered into a wound with an envenomed weapon); Any invocation/evocation, alteration, or necromancy spells dealt by a NķTelķQuess caster (including half-elves) against an elf are reduced to their minimum effect or damage, though range and other factors are unaffected. In addition, the overmantle grants a +1 bonus to the elvesķ saving throws against such spells; this saving throw bonus lingers on an elf outside the mythalķs area for one hour per day lived under the mythal (as described for the shield, above). The only nonconstant power of the overmantle utterly negates the first 3rd- to 5th-level spell cast specifically against a target elf (or within 20 feet of the elf, allowing defenses against fireballs and the like) each day, regardless of its caster or intent. The mythal instantly absorbs the magic in a flash of purple sparks at the target of the effect. After this defense is used, the overmantle cannot manifest this power for another 24 hours; still, the flash of sparks often serves to warn an elf of an attack and bring other defenses to bear. Mental and Physical Cures The mythal was designed to sustain and aid those who live within it. Extended contact with it confers a 20% chance per day of curing any diseases, insanity, or feeblemindedness. This 20% chance is not cumulative but is checked at the end of each continuous 24-hour period spent within the mythal. Weather and Nature Mediation Extremes of heat and cold are moderated by the mythal; the intense heat of summer and the severe cold of winter blizzards are mitigated. While this would appear to be a major effect, it is among the lesser powers, as the mythal naturally performs this function to maintain its powers; this ability merely augments that absorption, moderating the extremities of all types of weather and aiding the lush forest growth in this area of Cormanthor. Death by exposure is all but impossible for all creatures within this power, even in the worst weather. Natural lightning strikes (as opposed to magically caused ones) are also unknown in Myth Drannor; the mythal absorbs such discharges to power itself. This effect also aids all plant growth within the mythal's confines. My apologies for any unicode mistakes in there.
Derren S. 05-11-04, 12:58 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Again, what's stopping it the FACT THAT IT WOULD TURN THE WHOLE DAMN PLACE INTO A FALLOUT REGION, THUS RUINING THE REASON FOR CONQUERING! What you're doing in the childish spite thing once more. Because they are cornered and don't know how to win so they think "When I can't have it no one should".
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 01:05 AM	I think Ara summed it up perfectly, in terms of the mythal. I think I've cleared up any mistakes about the nukes. So let's let those pass, because that aspect is cleared up. Darkest, I must say; Wow. Just... wow. I've never seen anyone bring in so many self-contradictory points and still expect people to take them seriously. I mean, you've argued that there wouldn't be much fallout when I said there would, you've said there would be lots in order to kill the people of Faerun, you've UTTERLY disregarded the powers of the people of Faerun, and you've casually ignored anyone that disagreed with you. You've stated already that you don't care about the intentions of the original poster, and you have yet to make a valid point. Please. Make one. Anything! I don't want this to be taken as a personal assault, because I don't know you as a person. I just find your methods of arguing to be ridiculous and grating. Oh, and you're wrong.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 01:20 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Again, what's stopping it the FACT THAT IT WOULD TURN THE WHOLE DAMN PLACE INTO A FALLOUT REGION, THUS RUINING THE REASON FOR CONQUERING! What you're doing in the childish spite thing once more. what I'm doing? I provided a counterpoint in a discussion about a war of Earth vs. Faerun and I'm being childish about it? eh... whatever suits your fancy, I guess. the area, yes, but not all of faerun. we're conquering faerun, or at least most of faerun. that doesn't mean we can't nuke or otherwise devistate a particular area to thwart a major threat, like epic casters, in a particular city. Originally posted by Kuje31 Um well let's see nature priests remove the radiation damage. Divine casters heal the cancer. Next please. Again Earth came to conquor not destroy. STOP WITH THE NUKES AND THE FALL OUT AND THE NEUTRON BOMBS, etc. okay, fine. no nukes, no spells, epic or pre-epic or other citywide/planetwide area spells whether they have it or not. I see a lot of well, faerun could use or otherwise develop XYZ spell to do ABC against the terrans and yet terrans can do squat because their being attacked by -magic- oooooooooh. boogiemen! and better yet, all mages drop all their pretenses, work together, drop their moral/ethical values, aquire godlike and very intimate knowledge of the terran's offenses and defenses and terrans can... fire guns and run around a lot. yeah, that's realistic. Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia OH HOLY GOD HE DID NOT JUST ARGUE WITH ME ABOUT MYTHALS I was waiting for you to start arguing with me about the Mythal. You've done it now. ;) :schemes: .... okay. Did I break some holy bond or sacred artifact or something? calm down. if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. big whoop. Major Mythal Powers Given the five central casters (one primary, four secondaries), five major powers are imbued within the mythal that operate at all times. The details of these powers follow, with the parameters of each set of abilities. The Defense of the People The primary goal of the mythal was to protect the elves and their way of life while also allowing the N'Tel'Quess among them. This major mythal power, crafted by Mythanthor, places an invisible overmantle upon every elf who walks within the mythal, regardless of additional protections or magical deterrents. Unlike the usual clashing of magics when two mantles come into contact, this nonintrusive magical defense always takes precedence over other magical protections; only if its defenses are breached or bypassed are an elfķs other defenses brought to bear against an attack. The powers of the overmantle are as follows: Flight: Speed 15, Maneuverability Class C (any additional flight-related magics such as the fly spell operate at normal speed +6 or one higher maneuverability class); Shield and protection from normal missiles: The shield spell persists even after the elf leaves the area of the mythal, lasting one hour per day the elf lived under the mythal; Immunity to contact, gaseous, or ingested poisons (though, curiously, not to injected poisons such as snakebites or poisons delivered into a wound with an envenomed weapon); Any invocation/evocation, alteration, or necromancy spells dealt by a NķTelķQuess caster (including half-elves) against an elf are reduced to their minimum effect or damage, though range and other factors are unaffected. In addition, the overmantle grants a +1 bonus to the elvesķ saving throws against such spells; this saving throw bonus lingers on an elf outside the mythalķs area for one hour per day lived under the mythal (as described for the shield, above). what is a NķTelķQuess? an elf? odd name. The only nonconstant power of the overmantle utterly negates the first 3rd- to 5th-level spell cast specifically against a target elf (or within 20 feet of the elf, allowing defenses against fireballs and the like) each day, regardless of its caster or intent. The mythal instantly absorbs the magic in a flash of purple sparks at the target of the effect. After this defense is used, the overmantle cannot manifest this power for another 24 hours; still, the flash of sparks often serves to warn an elf of an attack and bring other defenses to bear. Mental and Physical Cures The mythal was designed to sustain and aid those who live within it. Extended contact with it confers a 20% chance per day of curing any diseases, insanity, or feeblemindedness. This 20% chance is not cumulative but is checked at the end of each continuous 24-hour period spent within the mythal. assuming radiation would be considered a disease (though technically, it isn't. I'm not quite sure what it would be classified as.) that's still only a 20% survival rate for -all- of the city's (or equivelent area's) people. which is why we rinse, wash, repeat. or just do an old-fashioned saturation bombing. Weather and Nature Mediation Extremes of heat and cold are moderated by the mythal; the intense heat of summer and the severe cold of winter blizzards are mitigated. While this would appear to be a major effect, it is among the lesser powers, as the mythal naturally performs this function to maintain its powers; this ability merely augments that absorption, moderating the extremities of all types of weather and aiding the lush forest growth in this area of Cormanthor. Death by exposure is all but impossible for all creatures within this power, even in the worst weather. Natural lightning strikes (as opposed to magically caused ones) are also unknown in Myth Drannor; the mythal absorbs such discharges to power itself. This effect also aids all plant growth within the mythal's confines. assuming the thousands of degrees of temperature (or more... point blank detonation is vastly hotter) were negated by this, the other effects wouldn't be. My apologies for any unicode mistakes in there. it looks like this mythal could indeed protect some of them, but not nearly all of them. 20% of them, to be precise.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 01:30 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Darkest, I must say; Wow. Just... wow. I've never seen anyone bring in so many self-contradictory points and still expect people to take them seriously. such as... I mean, you've argued that there wouldn't be much fallout when I said there would, you've said there would be lots in order to kill the people of Faerun, you've UTTERLY disregarded the powers of the people of Faerun, and you've casually ignored anyone that disagreed with you. You've stated already that you don't care about the intentions of the original poster, and you have yet to make a valid point. Please. Make one. Anything! fine. my point is: that faerun is far from any kind of automatic win. In fact, I personally don't think that any meeting between earth and faerun would develop into any kind of war. I think that we'd get along quite well. We'd have so much to trade and teach each other and we could solve a lot of each other's problems. I also think that if war were to break out, it would be a cold standoff. we'd know they could "nuke" us and we could nuke them, but, like the cold war, no one could reasonably see what would happen and the result would be that no one wins. However, to make another point, you and the others have blatently overstated the powers of many of the spells and capability of various spellcasters since I wrote my first word on this thread. a number of others have also vastly understated the powers that earth has as well. I disreguard only the poster's rules that are either illogical or unrealistic and I've attempted to deal with everyone that disagreed with me, but I can only stay at my computer and read so many responses at one time. I don't want this to be taken as a personal assault, because I don't know you as a person. I just find your methods of arguing to be ridiculous and grating. Oh, and you're wrong. essentially, this entire arguement, reguardless, is a thought experiment that cannot go beyond "you're wrong" "no, you're wrong" "no, you're wrong" (repeats) I'm not taking any offense to any of this. I'm just applying whatever I know or can otherwise predict would happen and state them in the most logical and plausible manner that I can at the time I interpret them.
Kuje31 05-11-04, 01:31 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels okay, fine. no nukes, no spells, epic or pre-epic or other citywide/planetwide area spells whether they have it or not. I see a lot of well, faerun could use or otherwise develop XYZ spell to do ABC against the terrans and yet terrans can do squat because their being attacked by -magic- oooooooooh. boogiemen! and better yet, all mages drop all their pretenses, work together, drop their moral/ethical values, aquire godlike and very intimate knowledge of the terran's offenses and defenses and terrans can... fire guns and run around a lot. yeah, that's realistic. No not okay fine, because again Earth ONLY has the tech it has right now on Earth. Faerun has the spells it has right now in the sourcebooks. Earth dies, plain and simple. You said it yourself, Earth has guns and only the tech that is found right now on Earth. Faerun wins hands down because there is no way Earth can withstand the magic that EXISTS RIGHT NOW ON FAERUN, with the tech that EXISTS RIGHT NOW ON EARTH. Again no nukes, no fallout since no Earth tech will be used on Faerun that makes radiation poisoning, etc, unless the planet Earth is threatened.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 01:33 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels .... okay. Did I break some holy bond or sacred artifact or something? calm down. if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. big whoop. Don't you know who I am? ;) what is a NķTelķQuess? an elf? odd name. I did say "my apologies for the unicode mistakes". :) assuming radiation would be considered a disease (though technically, it isn't. I'm not quite sure what it would be classified as.) that's still only a 20% survival rate for -all- of the city's (or equivelent area's) people. which is why we rinse, wash, repeat. or just do an old-fashioned saturation bombing. 20% survival rate that is augmented by the divine healers and the mythal ghosts spells that all elves own inside Mythals. The Mythal Ghosts A creature who dwells within the mythal for more than nine days develops a ģmythal ghost.ī This is a shadowy, tenuous likeness of the creature that is released to serve him only when he is at or near death (fewer than 10% of hit points remaining) or is rendered immobile (tied up, pinned under fallen rubble, or buried). A mythal ghost has the same abilities and statistics as the creature it mirrors and can move and wield items but cannot speak or cast spells. It is not affected by fire, cold, or undead attacks and has hit points equal to its ownerķs full hit point total. If, and only if, the injured or trapped creature remains motionless, the ghost can be freed. The owner of a mythal ghost feels a floating, moving sensation when the conditions for freeing the ghost are met. Once released, ghosts can fly upward or downward 20 feet per round and can walk on air. If struck or borne downward, they are always affected as by a feather fall. If desired, they can move with utter silence. A mythal ghost can attempt to free its owner from restraints, can fight against foes of its owner, can warn or direct others through silent gestures, can retrieve items its owner cannot reach, can transfer items held by its owner to another, and so on. Mythal ghosts can fight other mythal ghosts. mythal ghost is affected by magic normally but cannot be contacted or affected psionically. It is destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or when its owner dies. A mythal ghost needs no air or sustenance and cannot drown. It can carry food to its owner but cannot eat to nourish its owner. It cannot remain vigilant while its owner sleeps, though an owner slipping into unconsciousness can will her alert self to pass entirely into her ghost. In this case, the owner cannot awaken until the ghost returns to merge with her; normally, an owner can remain alert from both her own body and the ghost at the same time, and can move or speak with her body at will (instantly destroying the ghost). The ability to generate a mythal ghost lasts for one year for every 24 hours spent in the mythal beyond the nine-day minimum needed to spin a ghost. A visitor who spends 12 days Myth Drannor could generate a mythal ghost up to three years later, when imprisoned in a dungeon cell somewhere in Calimshan, or laid low with a broken leg in the wilds north of Silverymoon. There are no limitations on the distance between a mythal ghost and its owner (though a ghost cannot pass outside of the Prime Material Plane). assuming the thousands of degrees of temperature (or more... point blank detonation is vastly hotter) were negated by this, the other effects wouldn't be. it looks like this mythal could indeed protect some of them, but not nearly all of them. 20% of them, to be precise. 20% plus the effects of the whole Mythal. Not all Mythals are the same. A circle of Mythal-casting High Mages can erect a Mythal that is geared specifically to defend against the effect you list thanks to divinations.
Kuje31 05-11-04, 01:37 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels that faerun is far from any kind of automatic win. In fact, I personally don't think that any meeting between earth and faerun would develop into any kind of war. I think that we'd get along quite well. We'd have so much to trade and teach each other and we could solve a lot of each other's problems. I also think that if war were to break out, it would be a cold standoff. we'd know they could "nuke" us and we could nuke them, but, like the cold war, no one could reasonably see what would happen and the result would be that no one wins. However, to make another point, you and the others have blatently overstated the powers of many of the spells and capability of various spellcasters since I wrote my first word on this thread. a number of others have also vastly understated the powers that earth has as well. I disreguard only the poster's rules that are either illogical or unrealistic and I've attempted to deal with everyone that disagreed with me, but I can only stay at my computer and read so many responses at one time. However, again the point of the thread is for Earth to invade Faerun, not come to Faerun with open arms and peace flags. And you have vastly overstated Earth's forces while vastly ignoring Faerun's forces.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 01:40 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 No not okay fine, because again Earth ONLY has the tech it has right now on Earth. Faerun has the spells it has right now in the sourcebooks. Earth dies, plain and simple. You said it yourself, Earth has guns and only the tech that is found right now on Earth. then this arguement really has degenerated. faerun gets all the advantages of tactics, intelligent stratagy, their most powerful and widespread epic spells, and everyone always has the best spells and best abilities to do the job. and earth does not get some of its best weaponry, no one on the "pro-faerun" side has made any regaurd to terran tactics or intelligence just "well, spellcasters can do XYZ and then all earth are belong to us." and I never said that myself. Faerun wins hands down because there is no way Earth can withstand the magic that EXISTS RIGHT NOW ON FAERUN, with the tech that EXISTS RIGHT NOW ON EARTH. Again no nukes, no fallout since no Earth tech, will be used on Faerun, that makes radiation poisoning, etc, unless the planet Earth is threatened. I doubt that the earth leaders or whomever co-ordinating the invasion effort would conciede to not use our best weapons against faerun. especially if we knew where these planet-busting epic mages are. furthermore, I don't think that we'd enter into an invasion of faerun with the tech we have right now. maybe the same tech-level we have right now, but as I've said over and over again, it'd be unrealistic if earth wanted a war with an enemy we had no defense against.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 01:45 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels furthermore, I don't think that we'd enter into an invasion of faerun with the tech we have right now. maybe the same tech-level we have right now, but as I've said over and over again, it'd be unrealistic if earth wanted a war with an enemy we had no defense against. Then, in your opinion, what is the point of this thread? The point is that Earth invades Faerūn. They DO invade Faerūn. No speculation. It just happens.
Kuje31 05-11-04, 01:49 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels then this arguement really has degenerated. faerun gets all the advantages of tactics, intelligent stratagy, their most powerful and widespread epic spells, and everyone always has the best spells and best abilities to do the job. and earth does not get some of its best weaponry, no one on the "pro-faerun" side has made any regaurd to terran tactics or intelligence just "well, spellcasters can do XYZ and then all earth are belong to us." and I never said that myself. I doubt that the earth leaders or whomever co-ordinating the invasion effort would conciede to not use our best weapons against faerun. especially if we knew where these planet-busting epic mages are. furthermore, I don't think that we'd enter into an invasion of faerun with the tech we have right now. maybe the same tech-level we have right now, but as I've said over and over again, it'd be unrealistic if earth wanted a war with an enemy we had no defense against. That's great and all, but that was the restriction the poster of the thread stated. Earth has the tech it has right now, while Faerun has the rules from D&D. Using those rules Earth would NOT be able to win a war with Faerun. Again the poster said no NUKES, unless planet Earth is threatened. Either follow the rules the poster set down, or stop replying and making up rules like Earth has antimagic devices, etc. Since it does not! It's not supposed to be "realistic" since the rules the poster of this thread set down are unrealistic to begin with.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 01:53 AM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia Don't you know who I am? ;) I know that you're a poster on this thread and that your screen name is aravilar_holistacia. and your # of posts and # of posts/day vastly exeeds mine. and that your avatar has Hugo Weaving in Eldrond costume with Agent Smith sunglasses on. that's about it. Though I go out of my way to treat everyone equally on the boards. I did say "my apologies for the unicode mistakes". :) okay. I wasn't sure what that was. I didn't mean it to sound rude, or anything, it just looked like a name I never saw. 20% survival rate that is augmented by the divine healers and the mythal ghosts spells that all elves own inside Mythals. The Mythal Ghosts A creature who dwells within the mythal for more than nine days develops a ģmythal ghost.ī This is a shadowy, tenuous likeness of the creature that is released to serve him only when he is at or near death (fewer than 10% of hit points remaining) or is rendered immobile (tied up, pinned under fallen rubble, or buried). A mythal ghost has the same abilities and statistics as the creature it mirrors and can move and wield items but cannot speak or cast spells. It is not affected by fire, cold, or undead attacks and has hit points equal to its ownerķs full hit point total. If, and only if, the injured or trapped creature remains motionless, the ghost can be freed. The owner of a mythal ghost feels a floating, moving sensation when the conditions for freeing the ghost are met. Once released, ghosts can fly upward or downward 20 feet per round and can walk on air. If struck or borne downward, they are always affected as by a feather fall. If desired, they can move with utter silence. A mythal ghost can attempt to free its owner from restraints, can fight against foes of its owner, can warn or direct others through silent gestures, can retrieve items its owner cannot reach, can transfer items held by its owner to another, and so on. Mythal ghosts can fight other mythal ghosts. mythal ghost is affected by magic normally but cannot be contacted or affected psionically. It is destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or when its owner dies. A mythal ghost needs no air or sustenance and cannot drown. It can carry food to its owner but cannot eat to nourish its owner. It cannot remain vigilant while its owner sleeps, though an owner slipping into unconsciousness can will her alert self to pass entirely into her ghost. In this case, the owner cannot awaken until the ghost returns to merge with her; normally, an owner can remain alert from both her own body and the ghost at the same time, and can move or speak with her body at will (instantly destroying the ghost). The ability to generate a mythal ghost lasts for one year for every 24 hours spent in the mythal beyond the nine-day minimum needed to spin a ghost. A visitor who spends 12 days Myth Drannor could generate a mythal ghost up to three years later, when imprisoned in a dungeon cell somewhere in Calimshan, or laid low with a broken leg in the wilds north of Silverymoon. There are no limitations on the distance between a mythal ghost and its owner (though a ghost cannot pass outside of the Prime Material Plane). 20% plus the effects of the whole Mythal. Not all Mythals are the same. A circle of Mythal-casting High Mages can erect a Mythal that is geared specifically to defend against the effect you list thanks to divinations. -but that would require a development time. and if Faerunians can develop magic to prevent terran attacks, then terrans can develop something to prevent, defend against, or otherwise be protected from them. -it would require multiple creators -it would also require the creators to live through the first bombings. -and finally, a large number of the populous would still be killed, espcially with repeated bombings. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, but would be difficult. Circumstances might swing either way, it seems.
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 01:57 AM	Actually, the mythal ghosts already exist. No time needed to develop.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 02:01 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels -but that would require a development time. and if Faerunians can develop magic to prevent terran attacks, then terrans can develop something to prevent, defend against, or otherwise be protected from them. -it would require multiple creators -it would also require the creators to live through the first bombings. -and finally, a large number of the populous would still be killed, espcially with repeated bombings. E: f; b. Anthor is faster at posting than I am. :angel: You misunderstand. It doesn't require a development time. It already exists. All characters under the influence of a mythal have a Mythal Ghost. Combine that with the natural defenses of the Mythal, and the bombings cannot happen. Besides, what are you going to use to bomb us? Planes, trains, and automobiles? Those are spell fodder. The Return of the Archwizards series details the Major Mythal Power known as Corellon's Bolts. It fires a stream of golden bolts of light that are deific magic combined with a catalyst; your planes and bombs. In effect, your attacking soldiers/planes/whatever die when they get within a few miles. Ooh. Toasted human with a side of molten metal. Perfect snack for a dragon and some elementals, I'd say.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 02:05 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 However, again the point of the thread is for Earth to invade Faerun, not come to Faerun with open arms and peace flags. And you have vastly overstated Earth's forces while vastly ignoring Faerun's forces. and you've been doing the reverse reguarding earth's forces. I've taken into consideration as many points reguarding the faerunians as much as I can on a point-by-point basis to the best of my ability. You all post more often than I'm used to. Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia Then, in your opinion, what is the point of this thread? The point is that Earth invades Faerūn. They DO invade Faerūn. No speculation. It just happens. that bit of speculation is the result of having -no- limiting rules or direction. rather speculation as a result of what I personally think would -really- happen. I'm otherwise aware of what the point is and I've been making my points in that general direction of -if earth did invade. if someone likes, I could develop an entire, detailed point by point thing on what would happen if earth did decide to invade faerun. though I doubt that it would result in anything other than a standoff. War happens on faerun all the time and earth's invasion would be enourmous, but I doubt that earth would be pulling out nukes and I doubt that faerun would bring out its most devistating epic spells. toward the end, I think, minimally, a cease fire would be established toward a more peaceful solution. we are dealing with humans and people, after all. not unemotional war machines for either side. essentially, the war would be resolved diplomatically, reguardless of how the war actually starts. If the war followed through to the end, however, then I think niether side would win. earth would nuke faerun and faerun would nuke earth, leaving only the terrans that have bomb shelters and houses covered in duct tape and faerun would have its underground races, a number of undead, and all, or at least most, of its underground races and the few that actually have their own demi-planes. either way, I don't think it's a clear victory for either side. there are far too many variables.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 02:07 AM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia E: f; b. Anthor is faster at posting than I am. :angel: You misunderstand. It doesn't require a development time. It already exists. All characters under the influence of a mythal have a Mythal Ghost. Combine that with the natural defenses of the Mythal, and the bombings cannot happen. Besides, what are you going to use to bomb us? Planes, trains, and automobiles? Those are spell fodder. oh, sorry, I wasn't referring to the ghosts, I was referring to the modifications to mythals to make them more specifically resistant to nuclear or conventional bombing. The Return of the Archwizards series details the Major Mythal Power known as Corellon's Bolts. It fires a stream of golden bolts of light that are deific magic combined with a catalyst; your planes and bombs. In effect, your attacking soldiers/planes/whatever die when they get within a few miles. Ooh. Toasted human with a side of molten metal. Perfect snack for a dragon and some elementals, I'd say. indeed. sounds like a good read. though I'm a fairly new to the novels in FR. (though I've played FR for a long time.)
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 02:07 AM	You know, for simplicity, let's all assume that if the US were to bring in nukes, the Gods would step in. How about that?
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 02:09 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera You know, for simplicity, let's all assume that if the US were to bring in nukes, the Gods would step in. How about that? for simplicity, we could forget, through gods or otherwise, anything that deals damage in terms of miles. to keep it equal and not just leave faerun with their own "nuking" power.
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 02:12 AM	OKay, then the gods step in and win the war. End of discussion, yes?
Kuje31 05-11-04, 02:13 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels and you've been doing the reverse reguarding earth's forces. I've taken into consideration as many points reguarding the faerunians as much as I can on a point-by-point basis to the best of my ability. You all post more often than I'm used to. No actually I'm not since there isn't any way for Earth to win when using the tech that exists right now on Earth vs the magic and casters and fighters and thieves and dragons and demons and angels and undead and the thousands of other things that can be found in a fantasy magical world that does not exist on Earth. That was the whole point of the thread. Earth using the tech that exists now, except for nukes, invades Faerun. Faerun uses the powers and creatures that exist already in the world. Earth dies, no questions asked.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 02:19 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 No actually I'm not since there isn't any way for Earth to win when using the tech that exists right now on Earth vs the magic and casters and fighters and thieves and dragons and demons and angels and undead and the thousands of other things that can be found in a fantasy magical world that does not exist on Earth. You called me, Kuje my friend? :angel:
anglar 05-11-04, 02:19 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera No, champ, a forty point increase to IQ is equal to 4 points of Int. You don't think all those characters you've got have a 12 IQ, do you? Well, Champ, it all depends on where you start as to how much INT increases you get from a 40 point IQ increase. If you started with an IQ of 100 you'd have an INT of 10. If you add 40 point to the IQ for an IQ of 140, you INT goes up to about 17. How do I arrive at this? Simple. According to MENSA, only 1% of people in the world have an IQ at or above 132 while 50% have at least an IQ of 100. Using 3d6, the scores of 17 and 18 are a result <1% of the time. So, I feel safe in theorizing that a person with an IQ of 135 would have a D&D INT of 17. If your IQ is 150 or higher I'd give you an 18. Even if you started with an IQ as low as 81, which puts you in the 10th percentile, adding 40 to it jumps you up to the 92nd percentile. That's the same as someone with an INT of 3 jumping up to 13. Essentially, unless you are playing a race with an INT penalty, it is next to impossible to roll up a character with an IQ less than 85. That only occurs if you roll a 3.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 02:21 AM	Originally posted by Kuje31 No actually I'm not since there isn't any way for Earth to win again using the tech that exists right now on Earth vs the magic and casters and fighters and thieves and dragons and demons and angels and undead and the thousands of other things that can be found in a fantasy magical world that does not exist on Earth. ... look, believe whatever you want. "sorry, earth just looses, faerun wins" isn't a good way to discuss anything. we have our equivelents to many of those with the equipment we command and/or tactics we use. any gaps can be filled with big-budget R&D and mass production. also keep in mind that all that fantasy has origins in fashion or another on earth. people still believe they get posessed by demons, see ghosts, get probed by aliens, or get visions of hell. Very nearly of what exists in D&D has existed in some form or another in earth's legends and otherwise distant past -- including magic and those that cast them. I think some of you are taking me too seriously. I just sit here, calmly typing at my computer.... it's been a fun discussion though. I don't really think it's going anywhere. OKay, then the gods step in and win the war. End of discussion, yes? what about our gods? they're just sitting back and letting their worshippers die?
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 02:25 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels what about our gods? they're just sitting back and letting their worshippers die? Our gods? You mean... you're going to bring in discussion of real-life religion? Sorry bud, but that's a CoC violation and will get this thread locked. :mad: :rolleyes:
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 02:26 AM	Ah... you're using that formula. Honestly, it's the one I prefer, in that it is more accurate in terms of IQ, but it was irresponsible of me to bring up IQ in the first place. It's an inaccurate measure of intelligence. Still, the typical D&D IQ to INT formula is IQ/10 is INT. I prefer the 42 + 5.5 x INT.
mortellan 05-11-04, 02:31 AM	I think it was established in the early pages that gods wouldn't get involved. It would make the war arguement moot immediately. I am very glad I missed the elves part, because well, nm. Also if yall go back and read post 1, page 1....Faerun gets 24 hours notice. This is plenty of time for the 7000 sisters to react, but i'd leave new development issues out of this because, the war won't last long either way.
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 02:33 AM	Originally posted by mortellan I am very glad I missed the elves part, because well, nm. Is that a compliment, my lord mortellan? :D ;)
Mr. Wilson 05-11-04, 02:34 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels [B.... what about our gods? [/B] Obvioulsy, they fall to the uber-l33tn3ss of the FR gods. :rolleyes: And Earth of course is going to politely inform the Realms whenever we send out an attack squad of F-15's armed with missles that can strike from miles away. And we can't launch any satalites that might aid us right, cause the gods won't let us. And we don't get machine guns that will mow down any army to stand against us (re: World War I). Right. :rolleyes: Random Dragon: What's the whistli.......(he can't say anymore cause he's dead from a salvo of precision missles). And we'll give warning whenever we send out suicide bombers that look exactly like a normal Faerunian (or, are we not allowed to use that tech either?) No nukes, no problem. There isn't enough Epic Mages to stop hundreds of normal Cruise missles. So, a few elven cities "May" be left standing. Waterdeep: Dust. Silverymoon: Ashes. And that's in the first hour of the war. By the time Faerun had figured out what was going on, at least half of the continent would be in the hands of the Earth. Keeping Faerun, well, that may be another issue....
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 02:37 AM	Yeah, it was also established that nukes would stay out of it. Turnabout is fair play. Actually, it is entirely possible to develop an epic spell in 24 hours. Especially if it is a ritual. And Anglar, the more I look at it, the more I dislike your formula in favor of my own. Yours makes there an enormous difference between 3 and 4, and no difference between 11 and 12. A point is a point, in most cases. Just because you can apply math to something doesn't mean it's fact.
anglar 05-11-04, 02:38 AM	Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Ah... you're using that formula. Honestly, it's the one I prefer, in that it is more accurate in terms of IQ, but it was irresponsible of me to bring up IQ in the first place. It's an inaccurate measure of intelligence. Still, the typical D&D IQ to INT formula is IQ/10 is INT. I prefer the 42 + 5.5 x INT. But the typical D&D formula is very insulting to people with IQ's in the 125's. Someone with an IQ of 125 would have an INT of 12 or 13 by that method where using the [42 + 5.5 x INT] = IQ would be (125 - 42)/ 5.5 = 15, solidly. I don't really want to weigh in on this dicussion because I don't believe the sides are balanced. BTW, Ava doesn't know more about the Elves in FR than I know about my own character, and I'm not saying that Ava doesn't know anything about the Elves in FR. EDIT Originally poster by Another Del Neira Just because you can apply math to something doesn't mean it's fact. But math is the only truth throughout the universe.
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 02:40 AM	Nor does he know more than I know about mine. It's a hyperbole. Wilson; missiles don't have the precision to do what you'd like to think. Believe me; I've made a study of it. But you're free to also use hyperbole. The typical formula is only insulting if one doesn't recognize that a 12 or 13 is a decent score, and a 15 extraordinary. Consider that with the formula I posted, which works, according to statistics, I have a 27 intelligence, and I know several individuals with at least a 22. Where did I get it? Where did they?
mortellan 05-11-04, 02:40 AM	Is that a compliment, my lord mortellan? :smirk: roll, sense motive DC 20
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 02:41 AM	Originally posted by anglar BTW, Ava doesn't know more about the Elves in FR than I know about my own character, and I'm not saying that Ava doesn't know anything about the Elves in FR. Now, I know that's a compliment. :rolleyes:
Kuje31 05-11-04, 02:42 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels ... look, believe whatever you want. "sorry, earth just looses, faerun wins" isn't a good way to discuss anything. we have our equivelents to many of those with the equipment we command and/or tactics we use. any gaps can be filled with big-budget R&D and mass production. also keep in mind that all that fantasy has origins in fashion or another on earth. people still believe they get posessed by demons, see ghosts, get probed by aliens, or get visions of hell. Very nearly of what exists in D&D has existed in some form or another in earth's legends and otherwise distant past -- including magic and those that cast them. Ah yes they have existed as LEGENDS. Have you personally seen a demon with six arms and a half snake body? How about a living fire breathing lizard that is over a hundred feet long. Yeah just yesterday I saw bodies rise from the ground and start walking as well. Please. There is a difference in having legends and seeing the real thing. Big budget. Right people are not going to complain about tax dollars going to R&D when Earth keeps getting slaughtered over and over.
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 02:43 AM	Anglar; I disagree vehemently with the math statement, but don't really want to have it out here and derail what has the potential to be an interesting discussion. Another time, perhaps?
Kuje31 05-11-04, 02:47 AM	Originally posted by Mr. Wilson By the time Faerun had figured out what was going on, at least half of the continent would be in the hands of the Earth.[/B] Wrong since again both sides have a 24hr warning. So Faerun would already know what's going on and have defenses in place. Try again please. And about our "gods" have you truly seen a priest of God or our Gods turn a undead or grant us spells? No, I think not and yes this is coming from a pagan. Wonders if people really read the thread or just love making up rules that break the restrictions that the poster of this thread decided on.......
aravilar_holistacia 05-11-04, 02:54 AM	I would like to remind everyone that religion discussion is considered a "boards disruption" and will get this thread locked. And I think we all would like to keep this one open for a while longer. :behold:
mortellan 05-11-04, 03:01 AM	Wonders if people really read the thread or just love making up rules that break the restrictions that the poster of this thread decided on....... Not to brag, but I've been with this hellspawn of a thread since page 1 and I've argued for Earth most of the time but occasionally I will step over to Faerun's side just to keep things logical when needed. I haven't seen much give the other way. After dozens of posts, (mainly with Derren :P) my focus has become not so much who would win, but how certain tactics would prevail against others. The ends isn't as interesting as the means.
Kuje31 05-11-04, 03:04 AM	Originally posted by mortellan Not to brag, but I've been with this hellspawn of a thread since page 1 and I've argued for Earth most of the time but occasionally I will step over to Faerun's side just to keep things logical when needed. After dozens of posts, (mainly with Derren :P) my focus has become not so much who would win, but how certain tactics would prevail against others. The ends isn't as interesting as the means. Then I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the posters who keep making up things that the original poster specifically stated would not happen. :) :angel:
mortellan 05-11-04, 03:09 AM	I'm talking about the posters who keep making up things that the original poster specifically stated would not happen Agreed. Maybe a good idea would be to re-start the thread with the current guidelines contained in the first post.
Derren S. 05-11-04, 03:14 AM	That wouldn't help. When it again becomes clear that earth will loose, the earth supporter will bring up nukes (and technomagic) again.
mortellan 05-11-04, 03:17 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. That wouldn't help. When it again becomes clear that earth will loose, the earth supporter will bring up nukes (and technomagic) again. Hmmm yes it seems good help is hard to come by on a pro-FR board. Maybe I should withdraw my support of Earth and start a second 'incursion' this time with Githyanki. ;)
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 04:25 AM	Originally posted by aravilar_holistacia Our gods? You mean... you're going to bring in discussion of real-life religion? Sorry bud, but that's a CoC violation and will get this thread locked. :mad: :rolleyes: well.... not so much a "discussion _of_ religeon" (like having a conversation in which the religions were the topic of discussion) as a statement reguarding what the gods of those religions would do in XYZ scenario. (which involves the real religions, but isn't really a discussion in which religion itself is the topic.) If I'm mistaken, please feel free to correct me, but I think all that needs to be stated was stated, anyway. Originally posted by Mr. Wilson Obvioulsy, they fall to the uber-l33tn3ss of the FR gods. :rolleyes: And Earth of course is going to politely inform the Realms whenever we send out an attack squad of F-15's armed with missles that can strike from miles away. And we can't launch any satalites that might aid us right, cause the gods won't let us. And we don't get machine guns that will mow down any army to stand against us (re: World War I). Right. :rolleyes: Random Dragon: What's the whistli.......(he can't say anymore cause he's dead from a salvo of precision missles). And we'll give warning whenever we send out suicide bombers that look exactly like a normal Faerunian (or, are we not allowed to use that tech either?) No nukes, no problem. There isn't enough Epic Mages to stop hundreds of normal Cruise missles. So, a few elven cities "May" be left standing. Waterdeep: Dust. Silverymoon: Ashes. And that's in the first hour of the war. By the time Faerun had figured out what was going on, at least half of the continent would be in the hands of the Earth. Keeping Faerun, well, that may be another issue.... I don't think it would happen exactly like that. Not as quickly, anyway. It takes time for the terrans to mobilize their equipment and troops, as does it take time for the faerunians to do the same. Originally posted by Anthor Del Niera Yeah, it was also established that nukes would stay out of it. Turnabout is fair play. Actually, it is entirely possible to develop an epic spell in 24 hours. Especially if it is a ritual. very true, though the larger the epic spell, the more participants are required. the more participants required, the harder it is to find them and actually keep them all casting at the same time, and otherwise keeping everything in line. although in the rules, you can have as many casters as you can garner, in reality, it would seem to me much like a machine. the fewer casters, the simpler the ritual, the better chances it goes over smoothly to completion. the greater the number of participants, the more likely it is to fail in some manner or another. especially if the casting time is either especially long or especially short. And Anglar, the more I look at it, the more I dislike your formula in favor of my own. Yours makes there an enormous difference between 3 and 4, and no difference between 11 and 12. A point is a point, in most cases. Just because you can apply math to something doesn't mean it's fact. your method is simpler, yes, but it doesn't allow for standard (nonadventuring, run of the mill) humans to get smarter than 23 INT, despite that some humans exceed that by a significant degree. EDIT: unless there's a "genius" template in existance. :D but I'm sure that'd be abused by every (Int-based) spellcaster/manifester imaginable. Originally posted by Kuje31 Ah yes they have existed as LEGENDS. Have you personally seen a demon with six arms and a half snake body? How about a living fire breathing lizard that is over a hundred feet long. Yeah just yesterday I saw bodies rise from the ground and start walking as well. Please. There is a difference in having legends and seeing the real thing. very true. I can't say that I have beyond special effects (like in movies) and pictures. however, -this- earth, the RL earth is not the one that's fighting faerun, earth that has portals with faerun is fighting with faerun. that earth does have magic and likely all the things that come with it. in fact, that earth was stated to have portals leading to earth becaues they were once connected or something or had a more regular interaction in the distant past. I don't know the details, but I -think- that was the premise of why the portals are there. I believe that I found that information in a thread that Wiz_O Big Sister started with a question concerning earth's connection with faerun. Big budget. Right people are not going to complain about tax dollars going to R&D when Earth keeps getting slaughtered over and over. oh yes, and money put into an R&D project to develop defenses against those slaughtering is somehow a -bad- idea? Originally posted by Kuje31 Wrong since again both sides have a 24hr warning. So Faerun would already know what's going on and have defenses in place. Try again please. And about our "gods" have you truly seen a priest of God or our Gods turn a undead or grant us spells? No, I think not and yes this is coming from a pagan. so their gods can attack us and ours can't attack theirs? you do know that a god's power is dependant upon worshippers, right? no worshippers, means that the god dies or is at least rendered into a sleeping state or quasi-diety or something. furthermore, the dieties of faerun are more intimate with their followers (yes, I do mean "intimate," as in, the gods of Faerun talk to and interact with at every concievable level) their followers. earth's gods apparently are more distant. Faerun's gods have sometimes gone "distant" as well. Lloth has gone silent just recently, for example. Waukeen was also "silent" because she went to the abyss (if I remember correctly). Wonders if people really read the thread or just love making up rules that break the restrictions that the poster of this thread decided on....... you keep using those rules as a fallback to a point to where "well earth can't do anything about it" "yes earth can, using ABC" "NO! WRONG! BEEP BEEEP BEEP! against poster's rules. It's in the rules that faerun wins in 4.5 seconds. If earth has a defense, it seems to be against the rules to use. we can't learn magic, we can't develop technology that interacts with magic, we -have- to war with them as soon as the portals are opened, we can't do anything, apparently, but charge in blindly without any idea of what to do at all while all the most powerful mages in faerun are collaborating and working in perfect unison with each other with all of the best spells, creature, ect. available at their command." .... yeah... seems reasonable. ... look, I've spent hours on this thread the past few days, this is really tiresome. I'll say this: If faerun and earth actually, formally met, I don't think it would descend to the point of war, barring extenuating circumstances. (for Example: the next hitler takes over earth or faerun and yells "CHARGE!"). I'm sure the result would be far more peaceful, as I've previously stated. If faerun and earth actually did go to war over any reason, I don't think it'd be like anything described. I doubt the high level mages would be jumping in until things started to look bad in the same manner that I doubt we'd employ any of our really juicy technology or weapons unless it was called for. However, I'm more certain than anything that it would eventually be called off form someone from either side and it would end in the above scenario, just a little bloodier. If the war went from start to finish, I don't think Faerun or Earth would survive. We'd nuke them, they'd nuke us. both of us'd die. there might be some survivors, but just in small clumps of people in a desert wasteland. Thus: I say either that everyone or no one wins. Disagree with me or not, I have no indication that either side has enough of an advantage over the other to make any victory automatic or even clear in any fashion for either side. There are _far_ to many variables to consider and the result could be any which way, but there's no indication that the invasion _couldn't_ end diplomatically or that one would even begin. Especially since niether side likes having their people die.
Derren S. 05-11-04, 05:19 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels I don't think it would happen exactly like that. Not as quickly, anyway. It takes time for the terrans to mobilize their equipment and troops, as does it take time for the faerunians to do the same. Except that faerun has much less troops to ralley which are still stronger than earth armies. And cruise misseles could easily be blocked by WoF, controll weater, air elementals and the like your method is simpler, yes, but it doesn't allow for standard (nonadventuring, run of the mill) humans to get smarter than 23 INT, despite that some humans exceed that by a significant degree. EDIT: unless there's a "genius" template in existance. :D but I'm sure that'd be abused by every (Int-based) spellcaster/manifester imaginable. Proof? I have never seen a actual Int Score = IQ conversion table in any of the rulebooks. very true. I can't say that I have beyond special effects (like in movies) and pictures. however, -this- earth, the RL earth is not the one that's fighting faerun, earth that has portals with faerun is fighting with faerun. that earth does have magic and likely all the things that come with it. in fact, that earth was stated to have portals leading to earth becaues they were once connected or something or had a more regular interaction in the distant past. I don't know the details, but I -think- that was the premise of why the portals are there. I believe that I found that information in a thread that Wiz_O Big Sister started with a question concerning earth's connection with faerun. Only because there are portals doesn't mean that earth has magic. Stop trying to give magic to earth. The thread is about out earth against faerun and not about future/fantasy earth. you keep using those rules as a fallback to a point to where "well earth can't do anything about it" "yes earth can, using ABC" "NO! WRONG! BEEP BEEEP BEEP! against poster's rules. It's in the rules that faerun wins in 4.5 seconds. If earth has a defense, it seems to be against the rules to use. we can't learn magic, we can't develop technology that interacts with magic, we -have- to war with them as soon as the portals are opened, we can't do anything, apparently, but charge in blindly without any idea of what to do at all while all the most powerful mages in faerun are collaborating and working in perfect unison with each other with all of the best spells, creature, ect. available at their command." Because you can't learn magic that easily and technology which interacts which magic doesn't exist except some very hard to build and simple devices. And like you said about rituals it is harder to unite and coordinate whole countries than some epic magic who work for the same deity and are even related (or nearly related). Also with divinations, faerun has a superb information gathering system earth can't match. So it is only logical that Faerun is better prepared and coordinated. If the war went from start to finish, I don't think Faerun or Earth would survive. We'd nuke them, they'd nuke us. both of us'd die. there might be some survivors, but just in small clumps of people in a desert wasteland. Only taht Faerun can repair this wasteland while earth is and stays destroyed. Thus: I say either that everyone or no one wins. Disagree with me or not, I have no indication that either side has enough of an advantage over the other to make any victory automatic or even clear in any fashion for either side. There are _far_ to many variables to consider and the result could be any which way, but there's no indication that the invasion _couldn't_ end diplomatically or that one would even begin. Especially since niether side likes having their people die. Information Gathering: Advantage Faerun Regular Troop Strength: Advantage Earth Mobility: Advantage Faerun Communication: Advantage Faerun Supply lines: Advantage Faerun Troop numer: Draw "Special Weapons": Advantage Faerun Moral: Advantage Faerun Defense System: Advantage Faerun Early Warning Systems: Advantage Faerun
Lord Mortanius 05-11-04, 05:58 AM	Originally posted by Archangel I just have to make a comment on the number of lvl 17+ mages! Are you crazy, how did you get the 100+ number of that level mages. Last time I checked my FRCS/Lord of the Darkness and other sourcebooks there wasn't that many spellcasters in Faerun! Please people don't give numbers as you like but as sourcebooks say! Larloch has 60 level 25+ liches under him. The Twisted Rune has 5 level 27+ liches. Thay has the zulkirs. The Zhentarim have Manshoon and Fzoul. Sammaster's still around. The Chosen are there as well, not to mention the High Mages of Everaska, the Drow archmages, the Shades, the phaerimm, etc.
Cunning Linguist 05-11-04, 07:37 AM	And Halruaa alone has over 200.000 Wizards.
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 08:35 AM	Also, there are the Imaskari and the drow. And the shades. I think it's been established that there are plenty of people casting ninth level spells. Oh, I believe there are 12 elven high mages still alive? They're all capable of that, too. Edit: Forgot the Hosttower in Luskan. That's another seven or something. The Chosen have been mentioned, so I'll point to some of their apprentices/ underlings. I know ol' Thunderspell in Silverymoon can cast ninth.
Damien_Hiro 05-11-04, 08:37 AM	Magical Adavangtages= Faerun Technological Advagtages= Earth Opinion Advantages=Damien_Hiro Anthor, missles do have that kind of precision. If we can put a hellfire missle through a window or hit another plane 10 miles away, then we can hit a dragon. This whole thread has become pointless, because the Pro-Faerunian Faction has deemed that magic is invinsible, which is why faerunian mages used their magic to destroy the orc hordes of the the North, Red Wizards, Zhentarim and the Shades, and Faerun is now a magical place called Heaven. Oh, I am sorry, magic is not all that great, because your omnipotent spellcasters can barely contain those problems, so how can they fight against an enemy that is technologically advanced, tactically superior and so numerous we would be like the ocean. Well, the last part is for fun, but seriously prove to me that faerun can create a united front, because in the original post only Earth is united, not Faerun. Would the harpers save the Zhents if we invaded there, the Rashemen if we invaded Thay, or anyone if we invaded the Shade enclave. I do not think so.
Derren S. 05-11-04, 08:50 AM	That should read bullhead instead of opinion. Tactically superior? Lol, what are you dreaming? That "How to fight against regenerating monsters and flying, invisible spellcaster is teached in Westpoint? Oh yes, because of the "superhuman, infailable, allknowing information network" we have, earth will know everything about magic and monsters and will have drilled all soldiers how to battle them. By the time you are finished the the book "101 of fighting against technology" would be a bestseller on faerun and everyone would have it. Where is your tactical advantage now? Earthlings know how to fight against tanks and soldiers not mages and mosters. (Like those wizards know how to fight against other wizards and monster, not tanks). But with the possibility of divination faerun can adjust much fastewr to earth tactics than earth can to faerunian ones. Nummerous? The number of earth soldiers on Faerun would be very limited because with disrupted supply lines they would starve to death while faerun has a unlimited reserve of summoned creatures. Sure, earth they would be nummerical superior for about one week but then the troops have to be withdrawn or starve to death. Orcs are a problem? Only because it would cost to much ressources to wipe them out compared to the gain. The same reson the US doesn't invade every country with oil ressources. Also, those forces you speak of also have spellcaster. If they hadn't they could be wiped out easily. Hitting a dragon from 10 miles away? If you have radar lock and AWAC support ok. But you don't have that on faerun. Hitting a window? Yes, when you fly very near it and have ground troops who mark it with a laser. But without GPS you can forget the precision of most bigger missiles and many of the smaller ones depend on heat and radar signatures, something you won't find on faerun.
Dawnspeaker 05-11-04, 09:03 AM	Hmm..I'm impressed this has gone on so long, decent arguments for each side. Gotta alot to read to contribute. (going back to page 1)
Damien_Hiro 05-11-04, 09:35 AM	I will not address the insult and I believe personal attacks are against the CoC, but I digress. A hellfire missle can be fired a mile away without ground troop or awacs support. Tactics are tactics, are tactics, and yes tactics are taught at Westpoint. We have a very adaptable military. Give us some credit. I am sure a monster is similar to someone using a flamethrower, sure it is scary, but adapt and overcome. That is our tactical advantage. Starve to death, are you serious? Part of a soldiers equipment is carrying food and water, soldiers are also trained to live off the land also to save those rations. Do not pass judgement on Soldiers if you are not or never have been one. Unless portals are blocked, then the earth soldiers are unstoppable. Worse than any Orc Horde. Orcs are a problem in Faerun, have you read the Lone Drow? Spellcasters really helped Mithril Hall out alright and they saved Nesme too, right?
Derren S. 05-11-04, 09:41 AM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro Tactics are tactics, are tactics, and yes tactics are taught at Westpoint. We have a very adaptable military. Give us some credit. I am sure a monster is similar to someone using a flamethrower, sure it is scary, but adapt and overcome. That is our tactical advantage. Ok, when you really think assasine vines, trolls, mind flayers, undead and dragons can be compared to a flamethrower & Co I don't think I can convince you. Starve to death, are you serious? Part of a soldiers equipment is carrying food and water, soldiers are also trained to live off the land also to save those rations. Do not pass judgement on Soldiers if you are not or never have been one.[b][quote] I suppose you were one. And I also suppose you can tell me how millions of soldiers should live from the land. The portal is easily blocked because it is on water. Controll Weather/Water and no man made machine could come through and survive. Orcs are a problem in Faerun, have you read the Lone Drow? Spellcasters really helped Mithril Hall out alright and they saved Nesme too, right? No, I havent and I also don't use novels as argumentations because they are made to entartain and to tell the story the author wants to. They don't take in account all possibilities because that would ruin the story. Or how often have you seen someone ressurected in a D&D novel? That is a rather common happening among adventurers you know.
Damien_Hiro 05-11-04, 10:02 AM	Maybe in your world adventurers use Resurrection like candy, but in my Faerun it is only used for very special occassions, because it requires a person to come back from death, a very traumatic experience. In my game a cleric cannot bring back a faithless character. So maybe in your Faerun Earth would lose, but in my world the Earth has a realistic chance. And yes, I am a soldier currently.
Derren S. 05-11-04, 10:12 AM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro Maybe in your world adventurers use Resurrection like candy, but in my Faerun it is only used for very special occassions, because it requires a person to come back from death, a very traumatic experience. In my game a cleric cannot bring back a faithless character. Because there are so many faithless in a world like faerun. And I only quote the rules. You only need a higher level cleric and money and you have a extra life. And wizards with clone (like the ones which can blast earth armis into pieces) don't even need that. Of course novels disregard this because it ruins the story arc. And yes, I am a soldier currently. Well, that explains why you are so be reluctant to admit that faerun would win over earth.
Damien_Hiro 05-11-04, 10:53 AM	I am not reluctant to say Faerun would win, because I am a soldier. I am saying that I have better perspective about war, because I have just spent the past year plus in one. You cannot downplay our ability to overcome any obstacle. Now that we agreed that hellfires still work in Faerun and there has been no evidence that a thermal sight would not be able to detect invisible wizards, lets move on to mission objectives for Earth forces. World domination or stategic bases?
Derren S. 05-11-04, 11:00 AM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro I am not reluctant to say Faerun would win, because I am a soldier. I am saying that I have better perspective about war, because I have just spent the past year plus in one. You cannot downplay our ability to overcome any obstacle. Yes, but as a soldier you are of course proud for the training you had and forget that knights were trained as hard as soldiers and that, despite all tactic training you had, no tactic you learned is very usefull against a spellcaster but against enemy earth soldiers. and there has been no evidence that a thermal sight would not be able to detect invisible wizards, lets move on to mission objectives for Earth forces. World domination or stategic bases? And there is also no evidence that thermal vision does work against invisibility. There are two points which suggest that. First, the way infravision worked in 2Ed. and that there is no extra rules for thermal vision despite that some creatures (animals) in the FR have it (Not even in D20 Modern and Urban Arcana). The argument that thermal vision works against invisibility has no supporting points at all. The objective: Controll of Faerun like it was said many times before. The goal is conquering. (And I don't mean the kind of controll the wester forces have in Irak and Afghanistan. I mean real controll)
Damien_Hiro 05-11-04, 11:09 AM	Have you conducted a study on military tactics versus wizards, no, so do not presume to understand military tactics if you do not know any. The samurai of japan lost to rifles and cannons. So how can you say with so much convictions an armored knight would be able to defeat a terran soldier? Both are two types of control. look at the occupation of japan or germany after wwII. We did not occupy every town, just key places.
Derren S. 05-11-04, 11:14 AM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro Have you conducted a study on military tactics versus wizards, No, have you? The samurai of japan lost to rifles and cannons. So how can you say with so much convictions an armored knight would be able to defeat a terran soldier? Because the armored knight wears a mantle which transforms every bullet he is hit by in harmless light and he has a wizard invisibilitly floating above him who blasts and dominates soldiers left and right and disrupts any kind of air support with storms while druids and other wizards block all supply lines so that the earth forces have neiter ammo, fuel or food. You can't say the samurai had this kind of firepower.
Damien_Hiro 05-11-04, 12:03 PM	Adaptablity will win over the wizards. So will uranium depleted rounds, tow missle launchers, javelins, dragons and stingers. Small unit tactics will win this war in faerun. I am not saying it will be easy, but we have enough people and resources to make it work. And of course every knight has its own personal wizard. I think you have vastly overestimated the strength of Faerun and its magic and underestimated the modern military.
Cunning Linguist 05-11-04, 12:20 PM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro And of course every knight has its own personal wizard. I think you have vastly overestimated the strength of Faerun and its magic and underestimated the modern military. Or you might not have read FRCS. In Faerun, we would be able to gather around 300.000-450.000 wizards. But the amount of people really does not matter. One wizard, casting Create Greater Undead and getting up a Wraith and sending it into a camp knows what will happen. The first Wraith would be under the casters command, and all the other spawns would be under the first Wraiths command. One night, and you have yourself one undead army that no tech can kill. Why does not this happen in the realms you say? Well, the realms also have a huge amount of clerics that can kill these creatures, something earth does not have.
Derren S. 05-11-04, 12:21 PM	Originally posted by Damien_Hiro Adaptablity will win over the wizards. So will uranium depleted rounds, tow missle launchers, javelins, dragons and stingers. We use javelins and have dargons? Interesting. Uranium depleted rounds will still bounc of a PfA (It blocks musket bullets, so it blocks all other rifle bullets too), Tow controller still need to see their target and Stinger need a radar lock. Technology has just no means of defense against magic except some really exotic tactic our equipment isn't designed for. Small unit tactics will win this war in faerun. I am not saying it will be easy, but we have enough people and resources to make it work. Faeruns small unit combat is much more effective than earth seeing as a single man can have the same destruction tower as an aircraft carrier and with the whole adventure focus small units are very good equipped in faerun. And of course every knight has its own personal wizard. I think you have vastly overestimated the strength of Faerun and its magic and underestimated the modern military. Not every knight needs his personal wizard. Actually the wizards don't even need the knights, they could defeat without martial support (which would be much weaker than earth soldiers).
Anthor Del Niera 05-11-04, 12:24 PM	Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Or you might not have read FRCS. In Faerun, we would be able to gather around 300.000-450.000 wizards. But the amount of people really does not matter. One wizard, casting Create Greater Undead and getting up a Wraith and sending it into a camp knows what will happen. The first Wraith would be under the casters command, and all the other spawns would be under the first Wraiths command. One night, and you have yourself one undead army that no tech can kill. Why does not this happen in the realms you say? Well, the realms also have a huge amount of clerics that can kill these creatures, something earth does not have. You win. Five thousand points for you. How many casters are there that can create greater undead? Several thousand, at least. G'bye, earth!
Damien_Hiro 05-11-04, 03:07 PM	So a Wraith can just walk into one of our camps? I think not. I do not think Mr. Wraith can make it passed Mr. Claymore, can he? Our weapons would rock the undead. Come one, get real, Faerun cannot possibly deal with the combined forces of earth. You do not have the means to gather that many wizards. I am sure if we had undead running around we would automatically get allies that want to destroy undead. If you summon undead to fight us you will only help us be further separating faerun.
Derren S. 05-11-04, 03:12 PM	You should read the incorporal entry again. The wraith is incorporal. Everything material passes through him harmlessly. Only magical weapons (which earth doesn't have) can harm an incorporal creature with a 50% probability. So earth can drop cruise missiles or nukes at a wraith and it wouldn't harm it. Faerun can't gather wizards? Contact Halruaa and you have many high level wizards in no time at your command. Ad in the Harper which can rally very fast thanks to sending and teleport and you have a big army of prepared high level mages within 24 hours, probably less.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Except that faerun has much less troops to ralley which are still stronger than earth armies. And cruise misseles could easily be blocked by WoF, controll weater, air elementals and the like[b] I don't think they could. I think that even if they managed to -catch- the missile that they'd actually explode with it. Furthermore, I've never heard of control water being used to go miles up into the air. Lastly, you have nothing backing up any claim that Faerun's armies are stronger than Earth's and we still have vastly superior numbers. Proof???? I have never seen a actual Int Score = IQ conversion table in any of the rulebooks.[b] niether have I. INT translates into IQ very badly. The surmise that INT equals IQ on a 1 - 10 basis is flawed because humans can actually get smarter than 230 IQ. Which is why, mathmatically, it can be determined on a different basis that works a little better, but it much more complicated, it appears. But in any case, converting INT to IQ or vice versa is problematic, at best. Only because there are portals doesn't mean that earth has magic. Stop trying to give magic to earth. The thread is about out earth against faerun and not about future/fantasy earth.[b] yes, it is about earth vs. faerun. but it's stupid to think we'd be entering a battle against an enemy that we'd apparently have such difficulty defending against. So, logically, we'd learn enough about their magical system in some fashion or another to form a defense against them. It isn't that hard to extrapolate that we'd do that because that's what we'd do. "sorry, it doesn't work." just doesn't cut it. Because you can't learn magic that easily and technology which interacts which magic doesn't exist except some very hard to build and simple devices. it is possible to learn magic as easily as any other art or science. faerunians apparently do it all the time. And like you said about rituals it is harder to unite and coordinate whole countries than some epic magic who work for the same deity and are even related (or nearly related).actually, it's easy for us, because we have a massive communication infrastructure with that blasted internet and telephone system and all makes things real easy. Also with divinations, faerun has a superb information gathering system earth can't match. So it is only logical that Faerun is better prepared and coordinated.[b] oh? and what divinations are these? many of them can be easily blocked and many more are either unreliable, can lie, or require that the caster have intimate knowledge of the contact. Divinations are good and all, but not so good that it provides them with anything other than a moderate advantage and some forewarning. Only taht Faerun can repair this wasteland while earth is and stays destroyed.[b] like it would matter by the time that happens. If a nuclear holocaust occured and each side destroyed each other, there'd be nothing left but a lot of rubble and a few small groups of people left. I sincerely doubt that faerun is cleaning up an entire planet faster than it could clean itself up in the same manner as earth. Finally, you are still vastly overestimating faerun's capabilities in comparison to earth. Originally posted by Damien_Hiro Magical Adavangtages= Faerun Technological Advagtages= Earth Opinion Advantages=Damien_Hiro Anthor, missles do have that kind of precision. If we can put a hellfire missle through a window or hit another plane 10 miles away, then we can hit a dragon. This whole thread has become pointless, because the Pro-Faerunian Faction has deemed that magic is invinsible, which is why faerunian mages used their magic to destroy the orc hordes of the the North, Red Wizards, Zhentarim and the Shades, and Faerun is now a magical place called Heaven. Oh, I am sorry, magic is not all that great, because your omnipotent spellcasters can barely contain those problems, so how can they fight against an enemy that is technologically advanced, tactically superior and so numerous we would be like the ocean. Well, the last part is for fun, but seriously prove to me that faerun can create a united front, because in the original post only Earth is united, not Faerun. Would the harpers save the Zhents if we invaded there, the Rashemen if we invaded Thay, or anyone if we invaded the Shade enclave. I do not think so. the bulk of all of these mages would hardly work together, even against a massive invasion force. a large number might, but that's hardly all-encompasing. the biggest players in the invasion wouldn't play their cards unless they had to. Originally posted by Derren S. That should read bullhead instead of opinion. now, now... play nice. Tactically superior? Lol, what are you dreaming? That "How to fight against regenerating monsters and flying, invisible spellcaster is teached in Westpoint? heat vision, a machine gun, a heat-seeking missile, and possibly a flamethrower. Oh yes, because of the "superhuman, infailable, allknowing information network" we have, earth will know everything about magic and monsters and will have drilled all soldiers how to battle them. that would be the surmise of what would happen before the invasion got underway, yes. the soldiers would likely know enough to defend themselves against the enemy they're fighting. all it takes is either some anti-magical equipment or soldiers trained to have the equivelent of improved evasion and improved mettle of will & fortitude. By the time you are finished the the book "101 of fighting against technology" would be a bestseller on faerun and everyone would have it. Where is your tactical advantage now? the same advantage that we'd have against someone else on earth. Earthlings know how to fight against tanks and soldiers not mages and mosters. (Like those wizards know how to fight against other wizards and monster, not tanks). But with the possibility of divination faerun can adjust much fastewr to earth tactics than earth can to faerunian ones. right. they don't know, right now, how to handle them. however, that's why we -study- these things before hand so we -can- gain that knowledge. Nummerous? The number of earth soldiers on Faerun would be very limited because with disrupted supply lines they would starve to death while faerun has a unlimited reserve of summoned creatures. that's blatently false. every summoned creature is a spell the spellcasters aren't using for something actually useful and they last only seconds on the field of battle. furthermore, these mages would actuallly have to disrupt the supply lines first. I've no doubt that if the soldiers had -any- clue that these faerunians had that capability, that the supply lines would not be so easily found. or maybe even found at all. or even exist. soldiers can easily carry their own food and live off of the land for as long as they need. perhaps they could even bring equipment to make their own food and ammunition from the spoils of war. Sure, earth they would be nummerical superior for about one week but then the troops have to be withdrawn or starve to death. I don't think so. They'd actuallly have to know where they, get there, be visible for a period of time, and then, if they survived that long, actually have to have an attack both connect -and- still get through the defenses and destroy the target. if they're lucky, they might be able to escape alive. if they're luckier, they might escape uninjured. Orcs are a problem? Only because it would cost to much ressources to wipe them out compared to the gain. The same reson the US doesn't invade every country with oil ressources. no, we didn't invade these places for diplomatic and political reasons. the same reasons I think a faerun vs. earth war would never happen, but that's a different story. Also, those forces you speak of also have spellcaster. If they hadn't they could be wiped out easily. Hitting a dragon from 10 miles away? If you have radar lock and AWAC support ok. But you don't have that on faerun. heat seekers! Hitting a window? Yes, when you fly very near it and have ground troops who mark it with a laser. But without GPS you can forget the precision of most bigger missiles and many of the smaller ones depend on heat and radar signatures, something you won't find on faerun. actually, those can be found in abundance. not many creatures are cold blooded and many more are large enough to be picked up on radar. especially dragons, not that there'd be very many of them. Originally posted by Derren S. Ok, when you really think assasine vines, trolls, mind flayers, undead and dragons can be compared to a flamethrower & Co I don't think I can convince you.[b] I don't think anyone could convince you of anything other than magic's infallibility. which magic lacks. I don't think anyone would be able to convince you that not everyone on faerun would be working together and it'd be much harder to get them to work together, especially with any stratigic value, than it would be for earth to cooperate with other earth nations. you seem convinced of magic and faerun's infallibility, so I fail to understand why you still persist on this thread, you seem convinced that faerun is unbeatable. No, I havent and I also don't use novels as argumentations because they are made to entartain and to tell the story the author wants to. They don't take in account all possibilities because that would ruin the story. Or how often have you seen someone ressurected in a D&D novel? That is a rather common happening among adventurers you know. because faerun is a fantasy world and is made to entertain in such a fashion. just because the rules of D&D can be abused so that these spellcasters are mindless war machines with a massive hive mind, doesn't mean that they would actually act in such a manner. an invasion by earth forces doesn't mean that they'd work together or that they'd know precisely when and where to strike their target. they are far from all-knowing or all-powerful. the simbul, who's the most powerful arcanist in all of faerun, is till a fallible human being with her own ideas about what should and should not happen and she's not likely to work with someone just because there's a new war on the other side of hte planet. the mages of faerun are not the justice league.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-11-04, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Except that faerun has much less troops to ralley which are still stronger than earth armies. And cruise misseles could easily be blocked by WoF, controll weater, air elementals and the like[b] I don't think they could. I think that even if they managed to -catch- the missile that they'd actually explode with it. Furthermore, I've never heard of control water being used to go miles up into the air. Lastly, you have nothing backing up any claim that Faerun's armies are stronger than Earth's and we still have vastly superior numbers. Proof???? I have never seen a actual Int Score = IQ conversion table in any of the rulebooks.[b] niether have I. INT translates into IQ very badly. The surmise that INT equals IQ on a 1 - 10 basis is flawed because humans can actually get smarter than 230 IQ. Which is why, mathmatically, it can be determined on a different basis that works a little better, but it much more complicated, it appears. But in any case, converting INT to IQ or vice versa is problematic, at best. Only because there are portals doesn't mean that earth has magic. Stop trying to give magic to earth. The thread is about out earth against faerun and not about future/fantasy earth.[b] yes, it is about earth vs. faerun. but it's stupid to think we'd be entering a battle against an enemy that we'd apparently have such difficulty defending against. So, logically, we'd learn enough about their magical system in some fashion or another to form a defense against them. It isn't that hard to extrapolate that we'd do that because that's what we'd do. "sorry, it doesn't work." just doesn't cut it. Because you can't learn magic that easily and technology which interacts which magic doesn't exist except some very hard to build and simple devices. it is possible to learn magic as easily as any other art or science. faerunians apparently do it all the time. And like you said about rituals it is harder to unite and coordinate whole countries than some epic magic who work for the same deity and are even related (or nearly related).actually, it's easy for us, because we have a massive communication infrastructure with that blasted internet and telephone system and all makes things real easy. Also with divinations, faerun has a superb information gathering system earth can't match. So it is only logical that Faerun is better prepared and coordinated.[b] oh? and what divinations are these? many of them can be easily blocked and many more are either unreliable, can lie, or require that the caster have intimate knowledge of the contact. Divinations are good and all, but not so good that it provides them with anything other than a moderate advantage and some forewarning. Only taht Faerun can repair this wasteland while earth is and stays destroyed.[b] like it would matter by the time that happens. If a nuclear holocaust occured and each side destroyed each other, there'd be nothing left but a lot of rubble and a few small groups of people left. I sincerely doubt that faerun is cleaning up an entire planet faster than it could clean itself up in the same manner as earth. Finally, you are still vastly overestimating faerun's capabilities in comparison to earth. Originally posted by Damien_Hiro Magical Adavangtages= Faerun Technological Advagtages= Earth Opinion Advantages=Damien_Hiro Anthor, missles do have that kind of precision. If we can put a hellfire missle through a window or hit another plane 10 miles away, then we can hit a dragon. This whole thread has become pointless, because the Pro-Faerunian Faction has deemed that magic is invinsible, which is why faerunian mages used their magic to destroy the orc hordes of the the North, Red Wizards, Zhentarim and the Shades, and Faerun is now a magical place called Heaven. Oh, I am sorry, magic is not all that great, because your omnipotent spellcasters can barely contain those problems, so how can they fight against an enemy that is technologically advanced, tactically superior and so numerous we would be like the ocean. Well, the last part is for fun, but seriously prove to me that faerun can create a united front, because in the original post only Earth is united, not Faerun. Would the harpers save the Zhents if we invaded there, the Rashemen if we invaded Thay, or anyone if we invaded the Shade enclave. I do not think so. the bulk of all of these mages would hardly work together, even against a massive invasion force. a large number might, but that's hardly all-encompasing. the biggest players in the invasion wouldn't play their cards unless they had to. Originally posted by Derren S. That should read bullhead instead of opinion. now, now... play nice. Tactically superior? Lol, what are you dreaming? That "How to fight against regenerating monsters and flying, invisible spellcaster is teached in Westpoint? heat vision, a machine gun, a heat-seeking missile, and possibly a flamethrower. Oh yes, because of the "superhuman, infailable, allknowing information network" we have, earth will know everything about magic and monsters and will have drilled all soldiers how to battle them. that would be the surmise of what would happen before the invasion got underway, yes. the soldiers would likely know enough to defend themselves against the enemy they're fighting. all it takes is either some anti-magical equipment or soldiers trained to have the equivelent of improved evasion and improved mettle of will & fortitude. By the time you are finished the the book "101 of fighting against technology" would be a bestseller on faerun and everyone would have it. Where is your tactical advantage now? the same advantage that we'd have against someone else on earth. Earthlings know how to fight against tanks and soldiers not mages and mosters. (Like those wizards know how to fight against other wizards and monster, not tanks). But with the possibility of divination faerun can adjust much fastewr to earth tactics than earth can to faerunian ones. right. they don't know, right now, how to handle them. however, that's why we -study- these things before hand so we -can- gain that knowledge. Nummerous? The number of earth soldiers on Faerun would be very limited because with disrupted supply lines they would starve to death while faerun has a unlimited reserve of summoned creatures. that's blatently false. every summoned creature is a spell the spellcasters aren't using for something actually useful and they last only seconds on the field of battle. furthermore, these mages would actuallly have to disrupt the supply lines first. I've no doubt that if the soldiers had -any- clue that these faerunians had that capability, that the supply lines would not be so easily found. or maybe even found at all. or even exist. soldiers can easily carry their own food and live off of the land for as long as they need. perhaps they could even bring equipment to make their own food and ammunition from the spoils of war. Sure, earth they would be nummerical superior for about one week but then the troops have to be withdrawn or starve to death. I don't think so. They'd actuallly have to know where they, get there, be visible for a period of time, and then, if they survived that long, actually have to have an attack both connect -and- still get through the defenses and destroy the target. if they're lucky, they might be able to escape alive. if they're luckier, they might escape uninjured. Orcs are a problem? Only because it would cost to much ressources to wipe them out compared to the gain. The same reson the US doesn't invade every country with oil ressources. no, we didn't invade these places for diplomatic and political reasons. the same reasons I think a faerun vs. earth war would never happen, but that's a different story. Also, those forces you speak of also have spellcaster. If they hadn't they could be wiped out easily. Hitting a dragon from 10 miles away? If you have radar lock and AWAC support ok. But you don't have that on faerun. heat seekers! Hitting a window? Yes, when you fly very near it and have ground troops who mark it with a laser. But without GPS you can forget the precision of most bigger missiles and many of the smaller ones depend on heat and radar signatures, something you won't find on faerun. actually, those can be found in abundance. not many creatures are cold blooded and many more are large enough to be picked up on radar. especially dragons, not that there'd be very many of them. Originally posted by Derren S. Ok, when you really think assasine vines, trolls, mind flayers, undead and dragons can be compared to a flamethrower & Co I don't think I can convince you.[b] I don't think anyone could convince you of anything other than magic's infallibility. which magic lacks. I don't think anyone would be able to convince you that not everyone on faerun would be working together and it'd be much harder to get them to work together, especially with any stratigic value, than it would be for earth to cooperate with other earth nations. you seem convinced of magic and faerun's infallibility, so I fail to understand why you still persist on this thread, you seem convinced that faerun is unbeatable. No, I havent and I also don't use novels as argumentations because they are made to entartain and to tell the story the author wants to. They don't take in account all possibilities because that would ruin the story. Or how often have you seen someone ressurected in a D&D novel? That is a rather common happening among adventurers you know. because faerun is a fantasy world and is made to entertain in such a fashion. just because the rules of D&D can be abused so that these spellcasters are mindless war machines with a massive hive mind, doesn't mean that they would actually act in such a manner. an invasion by earth forces doesn't mean that they'd work together or that they'd know precisely when and where to strike their target. they are far from all-knowing or all-powerful. the simbul, who's the most powerful arcanist in all of faerun, is till a fallible human being with her own ideas about what should and should not happen and she's not likely to work with someone just because there's a new war on the other side of hte planet. the mages of faerun are not the justice league. Originally posted by Derren S. Yes, but as a soldier you are of course proud for the training you had and forget that knights were trained as hard as soldiers and that, despite all tactic training you had, no tactic you learned is very usefull against a spellcaster but against enemy earth soldiers.[b] ... now you're just making assumptions about people. no, soldier training in earth's army now has anything to do with wizards or any kind of spellcaster because they don't exist. however, there's no telling what would happen if a portal to such a world as faerun were to open. you can't say with any degree of reliability, that we'd send soldiers to war with faerun -without- further training that -is- specifically against spellcasters. And there is also no evidence that thermal vision does work against invisibility. There are two points which suggest that. First, the way infravision worked in 2Ed. and that there is no extra rules for thermal vision despite that some creatures (animals) in the FR have it (Not even in D20 Modern and Urban Arcana). The argument that thermal vision works against invisibility has no supporting points at all. we use 3.5e now. invisibility, the spell in the 3.5e PHB states that it does not hide the energy generated by a source. heat is such an energy and an invisible caster is such a source. it does NOT work. this is not 2e anymore. it's dead. Originally posted by Derren S. Because the armored knight wears a mantle which transforms every bullet he is hit by in harmless light and he has a wizard invisibilitly floating above him who blasts and dominates soldiers left and right and disrupts any kind of air support with storms while druids and other wizards block all supply lines so that the earth forces have neiter ammo, fuel or food. You can't say the samurai had this kind of firepower.[b] armored knights wear armor. not magical protection spells. mages are more common on faerun, but they're not so common as to protect every man, woman, and child on the battlefield. furthermore, spells such as that you stated are not available to every mage to be distributed even on an uncommon basis. furthermore, while all those spellcasters are doing all that while they're getting shot and blown apart? no. their protections do not last an entire battle. battles last -hours-. it's unlikey that these spellcasters would survive long enough to do half the crap you mentioned. furthermore, since when are all these druids working together with all these people? why are they not curing disease? relieveing poison? the vast majority of all spellcasters are very low in level. being sent into combat would mean death to them. Originally posted by Cunning Linguist Or you might not have read FRCS. In Faerun, we would be able to gather around 300.000-450.000 wizards. and the vast majority of those are low level. the bulk of them would die against us. But the amount of people really does not matter. One wizard, casting Create Greater Undead and getting up a Wraith and sending it into a camp knows what will happen. The first Wraith would be under the casters command, and all the other spawns would be under the first Wraiths command. One night, and you have yourself one undead army that no tech can kill. casting create greater undead requires an hour of casting time and that hte caster be 15th level or better. Using create undead and create greater undead also requires a black onyx gem worth 50gp PER HD of undead. it also must be cast at night. that's not going to happen. Why does not this happen in the realms you say? Well, the realms also have a huge amount of clerics that can kill these creatures, something earth does not have. there aren't clerics everywhere at once and not all of them channel positive energy.
Cunning Linguist 05-11-04, 04:13 PM	TheDarkestOfAngels: This may be hard, but sit down and read every post that has been made on this topic. We talked about heat-seeking missiles, and how they would not work in several longs posts in the begining, and you bringing them up now just makes no sense. It would not work, since there are to many heat sources that disrupt the missile, the SUN most of all. But a warm lake, a campfire, anything could make a heatseeking missile go amok. Also: Living of the land. You might think thats a great idea, but 200.000 people can't live of the land. And living of the land in Faerun is even harder then on earth. Ever heard of a Spiny Rabbit? How about or how about Hinnies? How do you teach soldiers how to deal with Cormanthors fyreflies? How do you tell them that they can eat Bentilan, but not Kirin's Leaf?
mortellan 05-11-04, 04:15 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. The wraith is incorporal. Everything material passes through him harmlessly. Only magical weapons (which earth doesn't have) can harm an incorporal creature with a 50% probability.Better have all those knights and mercenaries with their store-bought +1 swords stay home while the mages and clerics save the world. You know how Earth soldiers collect trophies on their campaigns. Faerun can't gather wizards? Contact Halruaa and you have many high level wizards in no time at your command. Ad in the Harper which can rally very fast thanks to sending and teleport and you have a big army of prepared high level mages within 24 hours, probably less. When Halruaa is emptied, that's when my Githyanki incurson begins. j/k? :smirk: I've learned alot about the FR since joining this thread. It has become overblown since I first played it in 2E. I've seen some really over-the-top figures for FR things since 3.0. It amazes me that an organization like the Zhentarim can even steal a woman's purse without being brought down by a hit squad of mages. It also interests me that places like Raurin or the Anuaroch haven't been 'fixed' as people have been claiming can happen.
Frostbite_Ravenheart 05-11-04, 04:18 PM	Alright in my absolut unbaisasitity (I know its a made up word :)) I belive earth would win. Now I have friends in the military and considering joining when I am 18. (decisions decisions) I also play FR. First of all, all of you are underestimating fighters. A fighter can pick off wizards much sooner then another wizard can... However. Lets say your fighting your war with all High Level Mages, Druids and Clerics. Ok so these spellcasters might cast about an average of seven spells on them to protect them. Next they can only shoot one spell at a time, whilest a soldier with an m16 for example could shoot off many bullets at once. Next, Our Air craft destroyed but what about all those Helicopters. Helicopters can shoot bullets the size of Poland Spring Water Bottles at a mile maby (correct me if I am wrong) two miles away. Lets not even mention missles which can eat DR alive. DR dosent mean total resistance, it means you have to provide a certin level or magic to affect OR go over the 10 maby 20 points of dmg. The spellcasters would run out of spells so quickly. Sure I havent forgotton magic items but have your rembered grenades. Now heres another problem. What about the Special Forces? What about the Rangers? What about the AirForce Signals or the Navy seals? You think you can divine every spot of land at once? They would sneak in and pick off all the uper ranks one-by-one which would cause major chaos since without leaders why would a zhent help a harper or extra. One last thing: America has history books from all over the world. All your regular conscription soldiers and knights would be easily destroyed beacuse we would know there tactics. Those tactics havent changed. So your left with maby at the VERY MOST million spellcasters all together inclduing first level clerics to elimster. -Frosty
WizO_BigSister 05-11-04, 04:21 PM	The bottom line is that the rules were never designed for the situation in which the US invades Faerun ... so they don't tell us what would happen. There is no right answer - as yet nobody has written the US vs Faerun module! A HUGE amount of interpretation and extrapolation is needed. Not surprisingly different people come up with different answers following their own exercises in interpretation/extrapolation. Right we have established that people are not going to agree, and it has also become obvious that people are not going to agree to disagree. This is getting more than a little heated as people are investing more and more emotion in their own point of view. (NOTE I did not say which people and which opinions!) I am going to close this thread before it deteriorates any further.