FR and the Chronomancer [Archive] - Wizards Community

FR and the Chronomancer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dielzen
06-30-05, 08:53 PM First of all, let me state what my concept is, then I'll get to where I can use some help =)

We all know that Mystra won't allow time travel, with the support of various deities such as Savras and Oghma, who would hate to have the balance of knowledge upset.

We know that the Shadow Weave possesses none of those annoying restrictions.

We know that Illithids came from a far-flung future, not necessarily from this time-line, but one of the myriad possibilities.

Now, the plotline....

There's a Beholder city (until recently) trapped behind the Sharn Wall, that's actually ruled by a small group of Phaerimm.

The Mind Flayers view this city as a threat, since it primarily brokers in knowledge, the currency of the power-groups of the Realms. They want to destroy it, sooner rather than later.

Through manipulation from behind the scenes, the PCs are working for an Illithid thrall, attempting to erradicate the city (in small steps, obviously...they don't even know the city exists yet).

Now the strangeness and the Chronomancer tie-in...

The leader of the illithid group is an advanced Illithid with the ability to manipulate the Shadow Weave to move thru time (ala Chronomancer)

How would you guys do the Chrono? 10-level PrC ala Beholder Mage? 20 level base wizard-like class?

As a sidenote, I'm not going into the depth of Temporal Prime and all that found in the Chronomancer sourcebook, I'm just using spells to travel forward/backward, with the creature only existing as a ghost-like creature if they already exist in that point of time.

Basically what I want to do is have strange "coincedences" happen periodically, that would suggest either a malevolent benefactor, or someone who knew the future, when it reality it's assisstance from the future Illithid who travels back and "tweaks" as needed to keep the PCs on course, and to never let them learn of the illithid involvement. And then when the city is wiped out, they find all their charged items are out of charges (stolen at some point by the illithid who knew exactly how many charges they'd use) and the band of Illithid step in and kill the PCs (probably, anyway)

Of course, it'll require some major work to incorporate the "tweaks" but I've already got some ideas.

Anyway, I was looking for some advice: re Chronomancer, or if someone's done a 3.5 conversion already.
GothicDan
06-30-05, 09:28 PM Time itself is also one of Mystra's portfolios, though I don't know if 3E really kept that. If you take this into account, even using the Shadow Weave would not allow one to get around Mystra's ability detect/affect time travel, due to that being part of one of her other (non-Weave) portfolios.
Regin
06-30-05, 09:37 PM Has anyone come up with a cronomancer PrC, or is there a book out there with one already made, if there is does anyone know what the book is called?
Kuje31
06-30-05, 09:52 PM Time itself is also one of Mystra's portfolios, though I don't know if 3E really kept that. If you take this into account, even using the Shadow Weave would not allow one to get around Mystra's ability detect/affect time travel, due to that being part of one of her other (non-Weave) portfolios.

Not Mystra's, Mystryl's. :)
GothicDan
06-30-05, 10:10 PM Ahh, I stand corrected. Though it leaves me with yet more deific mysteries...
createvmind
06-30-05, 10:13 PM I'm curious why shar would give shadow access to a mind flayer knowing that it is a communal linked race and therefore what it knows or learns all its kind would know. Thats definitely not something the lady of loss and secrets would want, mind flayers actually would serve no purpose in her plans other than trying to return to world to darkness and under their rule, not hers. Not that it can't happen but it is a bit far-fetched, as in stretching things to far just to get the shadow weave access and hope of bypassing mystra.

Time travel can happen but usually I price of cauing weave damage and probably drawing attention of various creatures who's sole purpose is to prevent such things, such as Inevitables. Where there's a will, there's a way.
createvmind
06-30-05, 10:16 PM Not Mystra's, Mystryl's. :)

Did she impose this after karsus had drawn the Meteorite and a barbarian and mage through time or before?
Kuje31
06-30-05, 10:21 PM Did she impose this after karsus had drawn the Meteorite and a barbarian and mage through time or before?

I don't understand the question. Did who impose what? The original Mystra never had the time portfolio. Mystryl did. If I'm understanding you, I guess Mystryl didn't restrict time as badly as Mystra did/does even though Mystra, both of them, doesn't have the time portfolio.
Kuje31
06-30-05, 10:29 PM Has anyone come up with a cronomancer PrC, or is there a book out there with one already made, if there is does anyone know what the book is called?

I'm not sure if there is a WOTC class for time travel but Mongoose has a Chronomancy book if you want 3rd party material. It's called Chronomancy. :)
Shemeska the Marauder
06-30-05, 10:38 PM Anyway, I was looking for some advice: re Chronomancer, or if someone's done a 3.5 conversion already.

I doubt it. The Chronomancer supplement was a forced fit into the Great Wheel, largely because it was never intended to be a part of it. Chronomancer was originally written by Mayfair games. TSR was granted the rights to it and a number of other finished but as yet unpublished books, after they sued Mayfair into oblivion. Chronomancer and Shaman are two of them, but I think there was at least one other.

Suffice to say, Chronomancer never truly fit with the 2e Cosmology since it had a plane of Temporal Prime which overlayed everything and didn't fit into the Wheel. Besides, the Wheel already had the Demiplane of Time/Temporal Energy Plane. The stuff from Chronomancer has never since been referenced by any TSR or WotC material AFAIK outside of a .rtf file that gave suggestions on how to use that book in existing TSR settings.

Given that, you're not likely to see anything in 3.5 even touch upon it.
Dielzen
07-01-05, 02:05 AM The RTF file is just a copy of the last couple pages from the actual sourcebook, so gives no real information, sadly.

I agree with you Gothic re: Shar and a communal mind, but in this setup it's a council of 6 independant Illithid who've all turned to Shar to work their plot. Shar knows they don't truly venerate her, but is OK with their aims and is helping, for now.

Now, the part re: Mystra-Myrstryl is already taken into consideration, my one sticking point (that I know of) is Labelas. (as an aside to Shemeska, in Demihuman Deities, under the entry for Chronologions of Labelas it states that they could multi as Chronmancer/Chronologions)

I figure, right now, that Labelas is venerated by the ...forget their name at the moment, the super high-level chronomancers.....and that they're all elven followers of Labelas, for the most part. Maybe a couple Temporal Raiders of Eravan Illesere, as I see him expressing a mild (very mild) intrest in the concepts of being able to pull gags thru time manipulation.
Dielzen
07-01-05, 02:07 AM I don't understand the question. Did who impose what? The original Mystra never had the time portfolio. Mystryl did. If I'm understanding you, I guess Mystryl didn't restrict time as badly as Mystra did/does even though Mystra, both of them, doesn't have the time portfolio.

I believe he's referring to the novels for the Arcane Age with the time travel the barbarian faced in like the 3rd book....been a while, I don't remember most the details from that series, as I didn't truly like it.
Dielzen
07-01-05, 05:03 PM I was slightly mistaken, the Chronologians can't multi in 2e, however under the "Church" entry it lists Chronomancer as an option for clerics of Labelas, and also under the Chronologian it lists that their +1 to the Time domain is extended to the school of Chronomancy if it exists in your campaigns.
Oulak
07-04-05, 07:12 PM I have the Chronomancy book published by Mongoose, and my problem isn't in converting it into 3.5e from 3e, but rather just understanding it. There are many contradictions, references to things removed before the final printing, and many things are just very, very poorly explained.

I am contemplating using the book solely for the purposes of building a Chronomancer prestige class. The spells are for the most part pretty decent, although some do require minor changes in description (like the Moment cantrip that lets you refocus as a free action) or spell level (such as "Glimpse past the Barrier", a 4th level spell that lets you look through a closed door - extremely too high of a level in my opinion).

I would think that one of the abilities of the first level of the prestige class would be to bypass Mystra's barriers on time travel, or maybe you can be considered "trusted" by Mystra enough to have these powers.

Something to consider though, is that the book only has one way to travel BACK in time, which is through ritual chronomancy - no spell allows you to travel back in time, just forward. In designing this prestige class I would try to get away from the complicated area of ritual chronomancy, and have class features that are akin to ritual chronomancy's powers.

Chronomancy is truly a fascinating area of magic, and I would love some feedback on this subject. I have tried the forums on Mongoose's website and have gotten zero feedback.
Iron Klaw Merc
07-04-05, 07:57 PM I am contemplating using the book solely for the purposes of building a Chronomancer prestige class. The spells are for the most part pretty decent, although some do require minor changes in description (like the Moment cantrip that lets you refocus as a free action) or spell level (such as "Glimpse past the Barrier", a 4th level spell that lets you look through a closed door - extremely too high of a level in my opinion).

I would think that one of the abilities of the first level of the prestige class would be to bypass Mystra's barriers on time travel, or maybe you can be considered "trusted" by Mystra enough to have these powers.

I would be interested in a Chronomancer prestige class, maybe you could list it in the PrC forum and get some help putting it together. If you could also try to make it so that it is not FR specific, and slids easily into any setting that would be great.
Dielzen
07-04-05, 08:54 PM The Chrono PrC I've almost finished developing is FR-specific in one aspect, but if you pull out the aspect, it'd fit anywhere.
Iron Klaw Merc
07-04-05, 09:03 PM Okay that should be easy enough :D
Razz
07-05-05, 11:20 AM I don't remember Mystryl having the Time portfolio, but I am sure Amaunator had that portfolio, truthfully. To be more precise, he accidently received that portfolio (details in 2E Faiths&Avatars).

As for time travel in the Realms it is a fact that it exists in the realms. Go to the Forgotten Realms WotC website and look up old articles I believe in "Portals of Faerun" or something. There was a Time Travel spell and there are even time travel portals in the Realms, though both the spell and the portals are extremely rare (and yes, the spell is balanced, just read it when you find it and you'll see what I mean.)
Kuje31
07-05-05, 11:50 AM I don't remember Mystryl having the Time portfolio, but I am sure Amaunator had that portfolio, truthfully. To be more precise, he accidently received that portfolio (details in 2E Faiths&Avatars).

You need to look again. Mystryl has it in the Netheril box set, Amaunator does not nor does he have it in Faiths & Avatars. He thought he was the keeper of time but it was really Mystryl.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dielzen 06-30-05, 08:53 PM	First of all, let me state what my concept is, then I'll get to where I can use some help =) We all know that Mystra won't allow time travel, with the support of various deities such as Savras and Oghma, who would hate to have the balance of knowledge upset. We know that the Shadow Weave possesses none of those annoying restrictions. We know that Illithids came from a far-flung future, not necessarily from this time-line, but one of the myriad possibilities. Now, the plotline.... There's a Beholder city (until recently) trapped behind the Sharn Wall, that's actually ruled by a small group of Phaerimm. The Mind Flayers view this city as a threat, since it primarily brokers in knowledge, the currency of the power-groups of the Realms. They want to destroy it, sooner rather than later. Through manipulation from behind the scenes, the PCs are working for an Illithid thrall, attempting to erradicate the city (in small steps, obviously...they don't even know the city exists yet). Now the strangeness and the Chronomancer tie-in... The leader of the illithid group is an advanced Illithid with the ability to manipulate the Shadow Weave to move thru time (ala Chronomancer) How would you guys do the Chrono? 10-level PrC ala Beholder Mage? 20 level base wizard-like class? As a sidenote, I'm not going into the depth of Temporal Prime and all that found in the Chronomancer sourcebook, I'm just using spells to travel forward/backward, with the creature only existing as a ghost-like creature if they already exist in that point of time. Basically what I want to do is have strange "coincedences" happen periodically, that would suggest either a malevolent benefactor, or someone who knew the future, when it reality it's assisstance from the future Illithid who travels back and "tweaks" as needed to keep the PCs on course, and to never let them learn of the illithid involvement. And then when the city is wiped out, they find all their charged items are out of charges (stolen at some point by the illithid who knew exactly how many charges they'd use) and the band of Illithid step in and kill the PCs (probably, anyway) Of course, it'll require some major work to incorporate the "tweaks" but I've already got some ideas. Anyway, I was looking for some advice: re Chronomancer, or if someone's done a 3.5 conversion already.
GothicDan 06-30-05, 09:28 PM	Time itself is also one of Mystra's portfolios, though I don't know if 3E really kept that. If you take this into account, even using the Shadow Weave would not allow one to get around Mystra's ability detect/affect time travel, due to that being part of one of her other (non-Weave) portfolios.
Regin 06-30-05, 09:37 PM	Has anyone come up with a cronomancer PrC, or is there a book out there with one already made, if there is does anyone know what the book is called?
Kuje31 06-30-05, 09:52 PM	Time itself is also one of Mystra's portfolios, though I don't know if 3E really kept that. If you take this into account, even using the Shadow Weave would not allow one to get around Mystra's ability detect/affect time travel, due to that being part of one of her other (non-Weave) portfolios. Not Mystra's, Mystryl's. :)
GothicDan 06-30-05, 10:10 PM	Ahh, I stand corrected. Though it leaves me with yet more deific mysteries...
createvmind 06-30-05, 10:13 PM	I'm curious why shar would give shadow access to a mind flayer knowing that it is a communal linked race and therefore what it knows or learns all its kind would know. Thats definitely not something the lady of loss and secrets would want, mind flayers actually would serve no purpose in her plans other than trying to return to world to darkness and under their rule, not hers. Not that it can't happen but it is a bit far-fetched, as in stretching things to far just to get the shadow weave access and hope of bypassing mystra. Time travel can happen but usually I price of cauing weave damage and probably drawing attention of various creatures who's sole purpose is to prevent such things, such as Inevitables. Where there's a will, there's a way.
createvmind 06-30-05, 10:16 PM	Not Mystra's, Mystryl's. :) Did she impose this after karsus had drawn the Meteorite and a barbarian and mage through time or before?
Kuje31 06-30-05, 10:21 PM	Did she impose this after karsus had drawn the Meteorite and a barbarian and mage through time or before? I don't understand the question. Did who impose what? The original Mystra never had the time portfolio. Mystryl did. If I'm understanding you, I guess Mystryl didn't restrict time as badly as Mystra did/does even though Mystra, both of them, doesn't have the time portfolio.
Kuje31 06-30-05, 10:29 PM	Has anyone come up with a cronomancer PrC, or is there a book out there with one already made, if there is does anyone know what the book is called? I'm not sure if there is a WOTC class for time travel but Mongoose has a Chronomancy book if you want 3rd party material. It's called Chronomancy. :)
Shemeska the Marauder 06-30-05, 10:38 PM	Anyway, I was looking for some advice: re Chronomancer, or if someone's done a 3.5 conversion already. I doubt it. The Chronomancer supplement was a forced fit into the Great Wheel, largely because it was never intended to be a part of it. Chronomancer was originally written by Mayfair games. TSR was granted the rights to it and a number of other finished but as yet unpublished books, after they sued Mayfair into oblivion. Chronomancer and Shaman are two of them, but I think there was at least one other. Suffice to say, Chronomancer never truly fit with the 2e Cosmology since it had a plane of Temporal Prime which overlayed everything and didn't fit into the Wheel. Besides, the Wheel already had the Demiplane of Time/Temporal Energy Plane. The stuff from Chronomancer has never since been referenced by any TSR or WotC material AFAIK outside of a .rtf file that gave suggestions on how to use that book in existing TSR settings. Given that, you're not likely to see anything in 3.5 even touch upon it.
Dielzen 07-01-05, 02:05 AM	The RTF file is just a copy of the last couple pages from the actual sourcebook, so gives no real information, sadly. I agree with you Gothic re: Shar and a communal mind, but in this setup it's a council of 6 independant Illithid who've all turned to Shar to work their plot. Shar knows they don't truly venerate her, but is OK with their aims and is helping, for now. Now, the part re: Mystra-Myrstryl is already taken into consideration, my one sticking point (that I know of) is Labelas. (as an aside to Shemeska, in Demihuman Deities, under the entry for Chronologions of Labelas it states that they could multi as Chronmancer/Chronologions) I figure, right now, that Labelas is venerated by the ...forget their name at the moment, the super high-level chronomancers.....and that they're all elven followers of Labelas, for the most part. Maybe a couple Temporal Raiders of Eravan Illesere, as I see him expressing a mild (very mild) intrest in the concepts of being able to pull gags thru time manipulation.
Dielzen 07-01-05, 02:07 AM	I don't understand the question. Did who impose what? The original Mystra never had the time portfolio. Mystryl did. If I'm understanding you, I guess Mystryl didn't restrict time as badly as Mystra did/does even though Mystra, both of them, doesn't have the time portfolio. I believe he's referring to the novels for the Arcane Age with the time travel the barbarian faced in like the 3rd book....been a while, I don't remember most the details from that series, as I didn't truly like it.
Dielzen 07-01-05, 05:03 PM	I was slightly mistaken, the Chronologians can't multi in 2e, however under the "Church" entry it lists Chronomancer as an option for clerics of Labelas, and also under the Chronologian it lists that their +1 to the Time domain is extended to the school of Chronomancy if it exists in your campaigns.
Oulak 07-04-05, 07:12 PM	I have the Chronomancy book published by Mongoose, and my problem isn't in converting it into 3.5e from 3e, but rather just understanding it. There are many contradictions, references to things removed before the final printing, and many things are just very, very poorly explained. I am contemplating using the book solely for the purposes of building a Chronomancer prestige class. The spells are for the most part pretty decent, although some do require minor changes in description (like the Moment cantrip that lets you refocus as a free action) or spell level (such as "Glimpse past the Barrier", a 4th level spell that lets you look through a closed door - extremely too high of a level in my opinion). I would think that one of the abilities of the first level of the prestige class would be to bypass Mystra's barriers on time travel, or maybe you can be considered "trusted" by Mystra enough to have these powers. Something to consider though, is that the book only has one way to travel BACK in time, which is through ritual chronomancy - no spell allows you to travel back in time, just forward. In designing this prestige class I would try to get away from the complicated area of ritual chronomancy, and have class features that are akin to ritual chronomancy's powers. Chronomancy is truly a fascinating area of magic, and I would love some feedback on this subject. I have tried the forums on Mongoose's website and have gotten zero feedback.
Iron Klaw Merc 07-04-05, 07:57 PM	I am contemplating using the book solely for the purposes of building a Chronomancer prestige class. The spells are for the most part pretty decent, although some do require minor changes in description (like the Moment cantrip that lets you refocus as a free action) or spell level (such as "Glimpse past the Barrier", a 4th level spell that lets you look through a closed door - extremely too high of a level in my opinion). I would think that one of the abilities of the first level of the prestige class would be to bypass Mystra's barriers on time travel, or maybe you can be considered "trusted" by Mystra enough to have these powers. I would be interested in a Chronomancer prestige class, maybe you could list it in the PrC forum and get some help putting it together. If you could also try to make it so that it is not FR specific, and slids easily into any setting that would be great.
Dielzen 07-04-05, 08:54 PM	The Chrono PrC I've almost finished developing is FR-specific in one aspect, but if you pull out the aspect, it'd fit anywhere.
Iron Klaw Merc 07-04-05, 09:03 PM	Okay that should be easy enough :D
Razz 07-05-05, 11:20 AM	I don't remember Mystryl having the Time portfolio, but I am sure Amaunator had that portfolio, truthfully. To be more precise, he accidently received that portfolio (details in 2E Faiths&Avatars). As for time travel in the Realms it is a fact that it exists in the realms. Go to the Forgotten Realms WotC website and look up old articles I believe in "Portals of Faerun" or something. There was a Time Travel spell and there are even time travel portals in the Realms, though both the spell and the portals are extremely rare (and yes, the spell is balanced, just read it when you find it and you'll see what I mean.)
Kuje31 07-05-05, 11:50 AM	I don't remember Mystryl having the Time portfolio, but I am sure Amaunator had that portfolio, truthfully. To be more precise, he accidently received that portfolio (details in 2E Faiths&Avatars). You need to look again. Mystryl has it in the Netheril box set, Amaunator does not nor does he have it in Faiths & Avatars. He thought he was the keeper of time but it was really Mystryl.