Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sarelle 07-08-03, 04:49 PM	As the Mordenkainen thread was running off topic I thought I'd start a new thread. We are making a comprehensive list on the discrepancies that the new FR cosmology since its change from the Great Wheel. There are quite a few. Any additions/contributions/backing up/evidence/comments welcomed and needed. So far -Elves come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Half-elves/Fey'ri need elves to exist. -Dwarves come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Orcs come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Half-orcs/Tanarukk need orcs to exist. -Beholders come from another world (Spelljammer). -Githzerai/Githyanki came from other worlds/planes (in Fr yet extraplanar/other worlds) -Tyr, Mielikki, Loviatar, Talona, Tyche (now Tymora and Beshaba), Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Kiaransalee (drow necromancer from another world) and Orcus come from other worlds (most stumbled upon Toril while searching for worshippers), as do the old Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons, not to mention the demihuman and monstrous gods. -Corellon Larethian, Lolth, Garl Glittergold and Moradin's Greyhawk aspects/personalities/versions of. -The peoples of Unther and Mulhorand are descended from people brought from another world via Imaskari portals. -Many spells in the PHB come from another world - mainly Greyhawk, including spells of Mordenkainen's (Mordenkainen’s Sword as seen in Servant of the Shard, Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles etc.) through his Spelljamming/Planewalking (and through other planewalking mages). -The whole Spelljamming campaign, references in novels and pieces of history based on it, such as two short stories in Realms of Magic. -The meeting between Elminster, Mordenkainen, Dalamar and the Simbul. -The rivalry between Khelben and Bigby. -Khelben the Elder (of FR) being the grandfather of Khelben the Younger (who now resides in Greyhawk), as well as KtE imersonating KtY in Faerūn and the two occasionally visiting each other. -The books Finder's Bane, which partially takes place in Sigil, and Tymora's Luck, where a kender goes to Toril. -Numerous discrepancies about the change of planar structure (references to gods housing up in Celestia/Arborea/Acheron/the Outlands etc.) -Waukeen was rescued from the demon lord Graz'zt in the Abyss, thanks to adventurers who used the Infinite Staircase, a planar pathway. -Graz'zt in For Duty & Deity is a big crossover with Oerth (father of Iuz, etc.) -Near the end of The Halfling's Gem, Drizzt and company end up in the Plane of Tartarus. -In The Silent Blade Rai-guy reflects that the drow who gave him the ritual instructions may have trapped them, and he could very well summon anything from an imp to Demogorgon (not FR any more) himself. -Elminster and Khelben many times said to spend much of their time on other planes and worlds such as Oerth and Krynn. -Gates/portals to other worlds: Yulash, the Chasmleap Bridge, Cloak Wood, the Yuirwood, Weathercote Wood, Undermountain, Dhedluk, the Abbey of the Swords (3e!) and several other places. -Gondegal, who once conquered Arabel, is still alive and well in the demi-plane of Ravenloft. -FR-Ravenloft crossover adventures Castle Spulzeer and The Forgotten Terror. -Elminster's trip to 'our world' :angel:
Iakhovas 07-08-03, 07:26 PM	The 1st-Edition adventure OP1: Tales of the Outer Planes p.4-11 describes the World Serpent Inn set in Arabel, Cormyr. The Inn is basically a planar cantina with gates to all the Outer Planes and many Prime worlds. Edit: By Outer Planes, I'm of course refering to the Great Wheel.
Iakhovas 07-08-03, 07:37 PM	The 2nd-Edition Spelljammer accessory SJR2: Realmspace p.73-79 list the deities worshiped in Realmspace. Ptah (Greater Power of the Ethereal) is listed on p.78. He is a power worshiped within Realmspace, if not Faerūn itself.
Iakhovas 07-08-03, 07:45 PM	In 1098 DR, Jander Sunstar, an elvish vampire, is drawn away from Waterdeep, through The Mists to Barovia (Ravenloft). These events are detailed in the novel, Vampire of the Mists, the Ravenloft accessory, Domains of Dread p.16, and the 2nd-Edition Forgotten Realms accessory, Villains' Lorebook p.16.
primemover003 07-08-03, 07:56 PM	OK I'm no fan of the new FR cosmology but let's look at some of the arguements to clear up the list. No one said the other "worlds" some races came from aren't in Abeir-Toril's own system, the Sea of Night is awfully vast. The new cosmology also does not deny the existance of other planes, it just does not use the MotP Great Wheel structure. The Abyss still exists, Baator still exists. The Outer Planes are now called by the names of the Faerunian godly realms. The Gates of the Moon, Brightwater, Dweomerheart, the Barrens of Doom and Dispair, etc. They are very similar to the traditional Outer Planes. Faiths and Pantheons already discusses Multi-world dieties having seperate personages in different game worlds. We know Lolth has followers on Oerth and Toril, but in the campaign world the other does not exist. Don't meta-game think. Yes the setting has a rich history, but sometimes legends and myths creap into historical fact skewing them and open up gaps in consistancy. Remember you're character knows nothing concrete about the Planes till either Knowledge(the Planes) is taken or they adventure in another one.
Zardnaar 07-09-03, 02:03 AM	Originally posted by primemover003 OK I'm no fan of the new FR cosmology but let's look at some of the arguements to clear up the list. No one said the other "worlds" some races came from aren't in Abeir-Toril's own system, the Sea of Night is awfully vast. The new cosmology also does not deny the existance of other planes, it just does not use the MotP Great Wheel structure. The Abyss still exists, Baator still exists. The Outer Planes are now called by the names of the Faerunian godly realms. The Gates of the Moon, Brightwater, Dweomerheart, the Barrens of Doom and Dispair, etc. They are very similar to the traditional Outer Planes. Faiths and Pantheons already discusses Multi-world dieties having seperate personages in different game worlds. We know Lolth has followers on Oerth and Toril, but in the campaign world the other does not exist. Don't meta-game think. Yes the setting has a rich history, but sometimes legends and myths creap into historical fact skewing them and open up gaps in consistancy. Remember you're character knows nothing concrete about the Planes till either Knowledge(the Planes) is taken or they adventure in another one. Yep but several novels,modules, etc take place on other planes of the great wheel and actually names them (Sigil for example). Always wondered what happened to Gondegal. It makes converting things harder and is really really annoying- Lolth fore example and makes no sense either. All the war gods live on 1 plane even though Garagos htes Tempus, all the Drow gods llive on 1 plane- and hate each other etc. They didn't even bother explaining it. At least 1st ed-2ed had the time of trouble to explain no assassins anymore etc.
Magus Occidentalus 07-09-03, 03:34 AM	First, I've heard some rumours that the planar variations can be explained by the events of Die Vecna Die, as that was supposed to be a way to put an end to the 2e world. (Not sure however, as I haven't been able to read/play Die Vecna Die just yet). Also, I recall the FRCS mentioning the possibility of as of yet undiscovered planes exisiting beyond the Shadow plane. Perhaps the center of the Shadow plane is a gate to the Demi-plane of Shadow, and from there one can access the Great Wheel. We could say this was changed when Vecna (correct me if I am wrong about this) began to change the planes in his own image; Ao, in an attempt to protect the Realms shifted the whole thing out of the planes, and created a set of mock planes (the Realms cosmology) within Realmspace, and thus under his control. The Dieties had to shift to this new world to keep serving their worshippers--and one might find in the Great Wheel that the domains of the Realms gods have begun to fall into disrepair, as most of the gods' focus is on the Realms. Of course that's all a convoluted way of patching up two non-compatable systems, but hey, what the Baator?
FineasBoggs 07-09-03, 03:31 PM	Also a web enhancement for the World Serpent Inn. Though it doesn't specifically state whether its a campaign specific location. It does have good info.
Sarelle 07-09-03, 06:17 PM	Wow - thanks Iakhovas! Originally posted by primemover003 OK I'm no fan of the new FR cosmology but let's look at some of the arguements to clear up the list. Faiths and Pantheons already discusses Multi-world dieties having seperate personages in different game worlds. We know Lolth has followers on Oerth and Toril, but in the campaign world the other does not exist. Don't meta-game think. Yes the setting has a rich history, but sometimes legends and myths creap into historical fact skewing them and open up gaps in consistancy. Remember you're character knows nothing concrete about the Planes till either Knowledge(the Planes) is taken or they adventure in another one. Okay. that isn't really relevent. But whatever. Thanks for explaining that Magus Occidentalus. That was helpful, as I havn't read Die Vecna Die. But I still think this is an interesting and fun topic to continue, as it proves to the designers how badly their decision has affected their creation. My opinion anyway. Edit: Don't have time to update the list with Iakhovas' points. I'll do it tommorrow.
Iakhovas 07-10-03, 07:19 PM	No one said the other "worlds" some races came from aren't in Abeir-Toril's own system, the Sea of Night is awfully vast.The problem is that the Prime Material Plane has not yet been described in 3rd-Edition terms. Some interpretations of the new Realms cosmology might lead one to believe that Toril is the only planet in the Prime (which is a major continuity breaker). If by System, you mean Toril's solar-system or sphere... it has been fairly fleshed out already in 2nd-Edition products, and the elves, orcs, mulan, etc. certainly didn't come from Realmspace.
Thrask the Gnoll 07-10-03, 08:45 PM	"The meeting between Elminster, Mordenkainen, Dalamar and the Simbul." This was not the first, but among the last, of Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles, which I sort of miss for their amusement value. Elminsiter, Mord and Dalamer got together several times, sharing news and tidbits of their worlds. I recall in one it was discussed that Fistandantilus, one of the most powerful and evil wizards in the Dragonlance camapign, had visited Toril in the past, before Elminster showed him the value of staying closer to home. Also... Mordenkainen has visited Waterdeep (and other regions, most likely) before several times. An unnamed member of Krynn's Conclave of Wizards, according to Dalamar, once ventured into Undermountain with a party. The series eventually came to an end after Dalamar stopped showing up (due to meta-storyline reasons in the Dragonlance setting). He was briefly replaced by one of Mord's apprentices, an woman named...Rautheene? Something like that, I don't recall exactly. She planned, I believe in the last article, to travel to Krynn and find out what was going on there. The results of her trip (or if she even ever came back) remain unrevealed, to my knowledge.
Dargoth 07-10-03, 09:02 PM	Id prefer it if they kept the FR speperate from the other known campaign settings ie Greyhawk, Krynn etc. It keeps the setting pure one of the things that really annoyed me in 2ed was the introduction of Spelljammers (Read Space ships) into a High fantasy setting like the Forgotten relams.
Nanosecond 07-11-03, 02:05 AM	Nobody ever said you had to use everything that gets printed. If you're the DM you're the final arbiter of what goes on in your game, despite what the rulebook says. (I've had to remind one of my players about that little fact) If you have different sources stating different things, just pick and choose what you like. Of course, if someone else DMs another campaign, he/she is free to do the same. I constantly ad-lib or change things in my games. Does it make my FR games invalid? No. Remember what FRCS says on page 297: "RULE 1: IT'S YOUR WORLD." It further explains in the same passage "Don't be a slave to the map or the book, and don't be afraid to alter anything you want to."
Pajmage 07-11-03, 11:42 AM	There was also the old Argument that Takhisis and Paladine were Tiamat and Bahamut. I actually liked the Campaign Settings kept together so to speak, I found it more fun and enabled greater plot twists to be developed if one had time enough. However, rewriting something like D&D is no easy task and you will always get errors and discrepancies between the Canon of different Editions. Although from the list given at the beginning of this thread, it does seem that many of these rather large errors could have been eliminated before the appeared if a bit more research was taken into the effect of seperating Toril from the Great wheel. In all honesty i would love an explanation of how this happened in Game terms, or even official Verification that this change is a direct result of the Die Vecna Die resolution, in which iirc the Lady of Pain was forced to rewrite the Multiverse to thwart Vecna's plots. One can dream cant he? :p
Sarelle 07-11-03, 02:45 PM	-Elves come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Half-elves/Fey'ri need elves to exist. -Dwarves come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Orcs come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Half-orcs/Tanarukk need orcs to exist. -Beholders come from another world (Spelljammer). -Githzerai/Githyanki came from other worlds/planes (in FR yet extraplanar/other worlds) -Tyr, Mielikki, Loviatar, Talona, Tyche (now Tymora and Beshaba), Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Kiaransalee (drow necromancer from another world) and Orcus come from other worlds (most stumbled upon Toril while searching for worshippers), as do the old Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons, not to mention the demihuman and monstrous gods. -Corellon Larethian, Lolth, Garl Glittergold and Moradin's Greyhawk aspects/personalities/versions of. -The peoples of Unther and Mulhorand are descended from people brought from another world via Imaskari portals. -Many spells in the PHB come from another world - mainly Greyhawk, including spells of Mordenkainen's (Mordenkainen’s Sword as seen in Servant of the Shard, Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles etc.) through his Spelljamming/Planewalking (and through other planewalking mages). -The whole Spelljamming campaign, references in novels and pieces of history based on it, such as two short stories in Realms of Magic. -Realmspace (2nd-Edition Spelljammer accessory SJR2) p.73-79 listed Ptah (Greater Power of the Ethereal) is listed on p.78 in the list of deities worshiped in Realmspace. He is a power worshiped within Realmspace, if not Faerūn itself. -The meetings between Elminster, Mordenkainen, Dalamar, Fistandantilus and the Simbul in Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -Mordenkainen has visited Waterdeep (and other regions, most likely) before several times in Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -An unnamed member of Krynn's Conclave of Wizards, according to Dalamar, once ventured into Undermountain with a partyin Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -The rivalry between Khelben and Bigby from Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -Khelben the Elder (of FR) being the grandfather of Khelben the Younger (who now resides in Greyhawk), as well as KtE imersonating KtY in Faerūn and the two occasionally visiting each other. -The books Finder's Bane, which partially takes place in Sigil, and Tymora's Luck, where a kender goes to Toril. -Numerous discrepancies about the change of planar structure (references to gods housing up in Celestia/Arborea/Acheron/the Outlands etc.) -Waukeen was rescued from the demon lord Graz'zt in the Abyss, thanks to adventurers who used the Infinite Staircase, a planar pathway. -Graz'zt in For Duty & Deity is a big crossover with Oerth (father of Iuz, etc.) -Near the end of The Halfling's Gem, Drizzt and company end up in the Plane of Tartarus. -In The Silent Blade Rai-guy reflects that the drow who gave him the ritual instructions may have trapped them, and he could very well summon anything from an imp to Demogorgon (not FR any more) himself. -Elminster and Khelben many times said to spend much of their time on other planes and worlds such as Oerth and Krynn. -Gates/portals to other worlds: Yulash, the Chasmleap Bridge, Cloak Wood, the Yuirwood, Weathercote Wood, Undermountain, Dhedluk, the Abbey of the Swords (3e!) and several other places. -Gondegal, who once conquered Arabel, is still alive and well in the demi-plane of Ravenloft. -FR-Ravenloft crossover adventures Castle Spulzeer and The Forgotten Terror. -Elminster's trip to 'our world' -In Tales of the Outer Planes (1st edition adventure OP1) p.4-11 the World Serpent Inn set in Arabel, Cormyr is described - it is basically a planar cantine with gates to all the Outer Planes and many Prime worlds. -In the novel Vampire of the Mists, a Ravenloft accessory (Domains of Dread p.16, and the 2nd-Edition Forgotten Realms accessory, Villains' Lorebook p.16.) during 1098 DR, Jander Sunstar, an elvish vampire, is drawn away from Waterdeep, through The Mists to Barovia (Ravenloft). -The 'old argument' that Takhisis and Paladine were Tiamat and Bahamut. -Kezef (Norse wolf Fenris) the Chaos Hound, from another world, and his encounters with Mask (mentioned in the 3E FR sourcebook Faiths & Pantheons). -That Ed Greenwood originally had Bane come from a pocket of Acheron. Thanks everyone who contributed so far. I am sure there are more interloper gods, but i am having trouble remembering which. I will pore of F&P. Thanks and keep 'em coming.
Pajmage 07-11-03, 08:04 PM	Another pretty big one - Tiamat now being part of the Mulhorandi or Untheric Pantheon (i forget which one) rather than the Draconic Pantheon. And these two - The whole Draconic Pantheon including IO being changed (i.e. deleted or moved to different pantheons, eg Tiamat) The removal of the Chult, Maztican and Eastern Continents (I forget its name, its where the Shou and Wa people Live) Deities. **NOTE** I DO NOT have a list of these things hidden away, so dont accuse me of it. *hides Ancient Scroll* :P EDIT The removal of a lot of the Overgods of the different Realms (although iirc there was some major discussion about whether AO was the Only Overgod in 2e) Mindflayers also came from across the stars via Spelljammer Also about Demogorgon, if I remember correctly both he and all of the other Demon/Devil lords do exist in FR, although they are considered seperate entities And not only is Kezef mentioned, but Dendybar (sp?) the Night Serpent and the Elf eater are also mentioned, Dendybar from one of the Gods in F&P and I cant remember where the Elf Eater is mentioned...
Sarelle 07-12-03, 08:43 AM	Thanks Pajmage - I will include some of those soon. However... the Shou deities (Celestial Beuracracy of Kara-Tur) do exist in 3E FR - they are mentioned several times but never detailed (which is weird, as F&P says that only the gods detailed in the book exist in FR). So I assume (there has not been any news) that the Maztican gods exist, in some shape or form. But otherwise thanks - I forgot about the Mind Flayers, and I hadn't realised that before she was an Untheric deity Tiamat (who is now a Faerūnian goddess) was part of a Draconic pantheon (I remember a reference now).
Iakhovas 07-12-03, 11:43 AM	Various Spelljammer sourcebooks, including SJR2: Realmspace 3,4 describe the "stars" seen in the night sky by the people of Toril. These "stars" are actually portals to the quasi-elemental plane of Radiance. These radiances give the sphere's inhabitants the illusion of twinkling stars and constellations. The only problem is, that the 3rd-Edition Forgotten Realms cosmology says that para-elemental and quasi-elemental planes no longer exist.
FineasBoggs 07-12-03, 02:43 PM	I just hope that the FR players handbook will cover some of this stuff as it is reported by some.
Elereth_Berantor 07-12-03, 08:28 PM	Originally posted by Iakhovas Some interpretations of the new Realms cosmology might lead one to believe that Toril is the only planet in the Prime (which is a major continuity breaker). No, it can't. FRCS pg 230-231 Not only are there other worlds, they are inhabited.
Pajmage 07-13-03, 06:42 AM	Hmm, Im not actually Sure if this is actually a discrepancy between editions or what but: In Elminster in Hell, It is an Archduke named Geryon who leads the attacks against the Simbul. However, according to references from the Book of Vile Darkness, Geryon was deposed during the Reckoning, which happened a long time before the Novel Elmionster in Hell. Therefore, im not sure what that means entirely, did the reckoning take place in FR? or not?
Savras 07-13-03, 07:05 AM	Also note that Finder Wyverspur was in exile on the Plane of Radiance. Tiamat was *not* a member of a Draconic pantheon in FR- she came in with the Untheric Pantheon from Earth (Babylonian, Tiamat- a real goddess worshiped on Earth in past eons). Kezef is not Fenris. He may be based on Fenris, but he is not him. Anyway, he should go into the "Deities" section of the rant. Savras
Iakhovas 07-13-03, 10:44 AM	Tiamat was *not* a member of a Draconic pantheon in FR- she came in with the Untheric Pantheon from Earth (Babylonian, Tiamat- a real goddess worshiped on Earth in past eons).Tiamat, without a doubt, came to the attention of humankind via the Untheric Pantheon. She *is* however a member of the Draconic Pantheon, and has been far longer than she has been in the Untheric or Faerūnian Pantheons. For those interested, The Draconic Pantheon is detailed in the 2nd-Edition sourcebook Cult of the Dragon, p. 120-124. So, I suppose another topic for Sarelle's list is... If the Great Wheel no longer exists, where does the Draconic Pantheon reside within the Great Tree?
Ethan Ashkevron 07-23-03, 12:50 AM	For those interested, The Draconic Pantheon is detailed in the 2nd-Edition sourcebook Cult of the Dragon, p. 120-124. I also believe she was listed with the draconic pantheon in the 2ed source book The Draconomicon and in the boxed set Council of Wyrms.
Fredegar The White 07-23-03, 01:52 AM	Sarelle here are some: Illithids came from outer space after their galactic empire was destroyed. Zakhara is south of Faerun. The most beautifull campaign setting is about two months travel from Chult.(Asxeto, irrelevant) The world serpent inn is described in Volo's Guide to Cormyr in detail. But i think it had another name! A former Zulkir from Thay (dagnaggit i forget his name! If anyone has seen any of my posts i forget everything f@*%!) is the dreadlord of an island of terror in Ravenloft. Lathander was introduced in Ravenloft by people drawn from Faerun in Vampire of The Mists. He is called Morninglord but is the same god.
Stormtalon 07-23-03, 09:54 AM	Here's another nifty tidbit for you. Page 161 of Faiths and Pantheons describes the Underdark levels of the Abbey of the Sword, including several known Portals down there. Of note is a portal that "...leads from a dark alley in a cosmopolitan city known as Sigil on another plane." We can read this two ways -- one being a big, honking "ooops" by the editing & continuity team. The other way to read it (and my preferred way, truth be told), is that Sigil & the Outlands do more than connect the various planes in the Great Wheel -- there's also connections from Sigil to entire alternate cosmologies. This particular reading of that entry also has the happy effect of resolving a lot of the inconsistencies otherwise present since 3rd Ed. Stormtalon
Sarelle 07-25-03, 09:07 AM	Wow, and I thought this thread had run out of steam. Sorry - I've been away for a while so I'm not very up-to-date. I will try to update the list soon, but am still quite busy. Maybe... maybe certain other nice people could give it a go... *nudges Iakhovas* :D Seriously, it would be nice, but no pressure - I will get round to it eventually. Oh and Iakhovas, don't forget the Spelljamming/Imaskari thread you made, and I have just read. Something about discrepencies about the Old Empires... Ciao
Iakhovas 07-25-03, 07:27 PM	I need to take a breather for a bit. The whole Spelljamming/Imaskari *issue* bummed me out too much.
Sarelle 07-26-03, 09:17 AM	Okay, sure. No pressure. I will try and update this week.
ManinDarkness 11-22-03, 01:39 AM	Originally posted by Fredegar The White A former Zulkir from Thay (dagnaggit i forget his name! If anyone has seen any of my posts i forget everything f@*%!) is the dreadlord of an island of terror in Ravenloft. Lathander was introduced in Ravenloft by people drawn from Faerun in Vampire of The Mists. He is called Morninglord but is the same god. He was no Zulkir, he was just a Red Mage. His name is Hazlik. Also, in Ravenloft there is a church of Bane.
Dargoth 11-22-03, 05:25 AM	Originally posted by ManinDarkness He was no Zulkir, he was just a Red Mage. His name is Hazlik. Also, in Ravenloft there is a church of Bane. Oh? Where? Is it mentioned in the 3.5 Ravensloft book?
Iakhovas 11-22-03, 10:55 AM	Bane is now known as The Lawgiver in Ravenloft 3.x
PhilCW 11-23-03, 12:39 PM	The Great Wheel and the Great Tree of Faerun are, IMo, just ways that those of Faerun have "pictured" the cosmology. The Faerūnian one being somewhat Faerūncentric, placing Toril at the base, and everything connecting to that. One could easily say the Great Wheel is the "True cosmology", and the Great Tree is a false interpretation by the daft primes of Toril to interpret the infinity of the cosmos.
Israfel666 11-23-03, 01:20 PM	Originally posted by PhilCW The Great Wheel and the Great Tree of Faerun are, IMo, just ways that those of Faerun have "pictured" the cosmology. The Faerūnian one being somewhat Faerūncentric, placing Toril at the base, and everything connecting to that. One could easily say the Great Wheel is the "True cosmology", and the Great Tree is a false interpretation by the daft primes of Toril to interpret the infinity of the cosmos. I would also like to think that WotC meant it to be interpreted like this, but unfortunately you can read in the FRCS FAQ: Is the layout of the planes in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting book the new norm for the D&D game? Or will the old planar layout from the PLANESCAPE setting be used again? Is this new planar layout the correct layout? Or is it just the interpretation of the planes that the Faerūnians have? The planar layout in FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting book is correct (the residents of Toril are pretty savvy about planar matters), but it applies only to the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. The standard D&D cosmology is the Great Wheel, which was used in the old PLANESCAPE® setting. The new D&D game allows for a variety of cosmologies, and this is further detailed in the Manual of the Planes book. So, no, officially (but not IMC, of course) Toril is no longer part of the Great Wheel in any way. Oh, a couple of other things: - The whole Avatar Trilogy, plus Prince of Lies and Crucible are based on the Great Wheel cosmology (it's obvious, but I do not see it listed in this thread). - The tale of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul travelling to the castle of Jergal in Hades to take the lordship of evil for themselves. I found this in a book in the Baldur's Gate video-game, but I believe they took it from some sourcebook (though which one I do not know). - Siege of Darkness puts Lol'th in the Abyss. - In the novel Homeland, a yochlol mentions the drow goddess' realm being in the Abyss, as well as the whole surface elven pantheon in Olympus.
Kuje31 11-23-03, 01:47 PM	Originally posted by Israfel666 - The tale of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul travelling to the castle of Jergal in Hades to take the lordship of evil for themselves. I found this in a book in the Baldur's Gate video-game, but I believe they took it from some sourcebook (though which one I do not know). Faiths & Avatars :) Also the Surials came from some where and Moander brought them to FR. From what was said on Sean's boards it looks as if they are going to take more of the Great Wheel and stick it back into FR's new planes. If that is true they should just stick with the Great Wheel instead of combining to the two. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133574&perpage=30&pagenumber=2
Kuje31 11-25-03, 08:30 PM	El and Storm also visit Acheron, even though Acheron doesn't exist, after they go to the Mage Fair in the short story that was printed in the Realms of series and then reprinted in the Best of the Realms.
warlockco 12-24-04, 04:27 PM	:bump:
Cole Deschain 12-24-04, 05:09 PM	Is it mentioned in the 3.5 Ravensloft book? [Ravenloft Junkie] Under Arthaus' agreement with WotC, no gameworld-specific elements could be maintatined. Hence, although Hazlan, Nova Vaasa, Valachan, and Kartakass all owe their origins to FR, there is no longer any talk of how Harkon Lukas is originally from Cormyr, or how Hazlik was a Red Wizard of Thay. Just as Lord Soth is no longer mentioned by name, and Azalin's Greyhawk origins are ignored. Meredoth's beginnings in Mystara are not in the new books, and there's a very good reason Kalidnay hasn't been detailed- it reeks so much of Dark Sun that the reference would be impossible to ignore. Now, that being said, the old references aren't invalid. The home worlds of various beings are still more or less the same (fer crying out loud, Gondegal is still wandering around the 'Loft), but the specific place names and worlds of origin are no longer in print- part of why they renamed Bane. (Incidentally, his Ravenloft church is the sort sane people might actually join. Sorta like a "tough love" version of Siamorphe)
Alac Luin 12-24-04, 05:21 PM	Also a web enhancement for the World Serpent Inn. Though it doesn't specifically state whether its a campaign specific location. It does have good info. Volo's guide to Cormyr also mentions The world serpent inn.
greaterbaatezu 12-28-04, 07:35 AM	"The meeting between Elminster, Mordenkainen, Dalamar and the Simbul." This was not the first, but among the last, of Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles, which I sort of miss for their amusement value. Elminsiter, Mord and Dalamer got together several times, sharing news and tidbits of their worlds. I recall in one it was discussed that Fistandantilus, one of the most powerful and evil wizards in the Dragonlance camapign, had visited Toril in the past, before Elminster showed him the value of staying closer to home. Also... I'm not familiar with the meeting between Elminster and Fistandantilus. Though, I'm not too sure I beleive El had an easy time of it. Though he was limited in level, he had more spells to cast for the day... kinda evens out there. Those "Wizards Three" articles would have been far different if Raistlin had been showing up rather than that idiot Dalamar.
Cole Deschain 12-31-04, 06:08 PM	Or if someone other then Ed "Realms-Myopia" Greenwood had been writing them. 1) He thought Dalamar was a Drow, as can be plainly ascertained by the text of the earlier articles. 2) He wrote Dalamar waaaaaaay out of character. He wrote him like a petulant child, instead of as the apprentice who willingly returned to the master who maimed him, simply because he still wanted to learn. Had those rules been noticed by mister "The Realms Are ALL," we would have had articles far superior to the tripe we got.
Gray Richardson 12-31-04, 08:24 PM	I have started a new thread here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=357775 in order to try and address the problems and discrepancies listed in this thread. I hope you all will check it out and contribute to a friendly discussion on the matter. :)
Gray Richardson 12-03-05, 05:58 AM	:bump: